Section 18C: The Wally amendment

 

It is no surprise that the Human Rights clerics are resisting George Brandis’s modest but crucial amendments to the Human Rights Act.

The inclusion of an ordinary reasonable Australian test for racial vilification is an assault on their presumed monopoly of wisdom.

Section 3 of the Brandis proposals stipulates:

Screen Shot 2014-04-01 at 7.23.13 am

The clerisy would have less difficulty with a reasonable Australian test since they consider themselves reasonable people.

It is the inclusion of the word ordinary that troubles them since this opens the cathedral to obstructive, disobliging and tiresome Australians.

God forbid! The crowd at the front bar of the Royal Hotel in Koo Wee Rup might even get to have a say, and they don’t have a law degree among them according to the 2011 Census.

Not only that, but they are horribly white, and as Waleed Aly explained in The Age last week, white people aren’t ethnic:

This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of white people (even ordinary reasonable ones) are good at telling coloured people what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that they might not be in prime position to make that call.

How could section 3 be recast to satisfy Aly’s concerns? Here’s one suggestion:

Screen Shot 2014-04-01 at 7.50.03 am

Is everyone ok with that?

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150 Responses to Section 18C: The Wally amendment

  1. crazydude

    I have faith in the new amendments. We Australians are pretty reasonable I would have thought.

  2. samuel j

    we’re all ethnic now? The problem with Aly’s thinking is that the very word ethnic is about race. The Latin word ethnicus, from which ethnic derives, means heathen or pagan. It was the sense of other – the barbarian of the Greeks. We are all other we are all ethnics.

  3. MiltonG

    (3) Whether an act is reasonable likely to have the effect specified in sub-section (1)(a) is to be determined by the standards of Waleed Aly, not by the standards of just any old bleeding heart whitey.

    FTFY.

  4. Alfonso

    Now we’ll see whether special identity groups run Australia or the Govt runs Australia.
    Alas, there’s an excellent chance the LibLabs will go to jelly on this with a ‘compromise’ that strokes foreign cultural values.

  5. Bribie John

    Maleed Ay needs to brush up on his understanding of normal English. My dictionary says that the word means,”Denoting or deriving from or distinctive of the ways of living built up by a group of people”

    What is wrong with being an ethnic Australian.?

    Is it that others of different ethnicity want to impose their ethnicity on the distinctive ways of living established by ethic Australians, black, white,or brindle?

    I’m an ethnic Australian! Oops! I just noticed; my skin is (dare I say it) white.

  6. Badjack

    This ALY bloke is a genius on sport as well. He was on Offsiders last Sunday espousing his great knowledge on every sport mentioned on the program. He is so sickly looking that if he was white everyone would think he was suffering from anaemia.

  7. A Lurker

    As a tall, pale skinned, strawberry-blonde female with Anglo-Celtic/Viking ancestry, I would be considered ethnic in most parts of the world. I would stand out like a sore-thumb in all of Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Oceania and South and Central America. I dare say that I would likewise stand out in many parts of Australia too – like in remote Aboriginal settlements, and suburbs where non-European immigrants and residents outnumber everyone else.

    How I would be treated is unknown – you never know I might be treated well, but the pragmatist in me believes that at the very least my difference would be publically commented on, I would cop verbal abuse, and also some unwarranted sexual attention like groping; and in less civilised places I would need a large, menacing and armed bodyguard just so I wasn’t raped/killed outright. In some parts of suburban Australia I would feel nervous simply because of my colouring and my gender.

    So for Waleed Aly to imply that I’d have no idea of experiencing racism because I was part of the Anglo majority is simply not true. It would be interesting too, to compile actual statistics of where in Australia actual cases of harm/intimidation happened, where racial targeting was the primary factor and who were the culprits involved.

  8. None

    Why Waleed’s dumb reasoning his wife can’t possibly be reasonable. But then, she’s a woman isn’t she Waleed?

  9. Token

    we’re all ethnic now? The problem with Aly’s thinking is that the very word ethnic is about race.

    Is that the only problem with his thinking? ;)

    Phew, I thought his articles and spewing of bile on the ABC has taught us the man has many problems and is getting rich by dividing people.

  10. johno

    The problem with Aly’s thinking is that the very word ethnic is about race.

    Either the Left is too dumb to understand that ‘ethnic’ is all about race, or they willfully ignore this connection to promote their anti-Western civilization campaign.

  11. Token

    Why Waleed’s dumb reasoning his wife can’t possibly be reasonable. But then, she’s a woman isn’t she Waleed?

    Wally has the right all lefties give themselves to live a repugnant mysogynistic life at home which is in total contradiction to his public statements.

    I was listening to Mona Charen note that in the Totalitarian 101 handbook the first lesson is to always play the aggrieved victim in western society as this provides power. As Tim Blair noted this is the way the totalitarian left is played by the 3rd world killers, rapers and thieves:

    Power was a recurring theme in Knobloch’s presentation, as it is in many leftist discussions. It’s a perverse way of analysing things. For example, let’s suppose you happen upon a couple arguing whether two plus two equals four or five. A normal person would solve this by counting fingers, but a leftist will instead consider the relative power of the disputing parties.

    Perhaps the case for four is being presented by a wealthy white male, while his poor indigenous opponent believes the answer is five. And she’s right, according to reverse-hierarchy power theory, until an indigenous lesbian with no legs wheels up claiming the correct number is six.

  12. Amanda

    Next we’ll have to define who falls under the “ethnic” group. How about anyone who doesn’t identify as Caucasian? Even those who have 1% “ethnic” blood as opposed to 99% Caucasian blood, but who identify as “ethnic” should therefore qualify to be our overlords. Is Aly okay with that too?

  13. Mr McGoo

    Not ok with that, but Wally and Warren Mundine are ensuring the failure of the foreshadowed referendum to entrench racist privilege, so I welcome their contribution to the debate. What do aborigines and the English royal family have in common? They both enjoy special privileges because of who their grandparents were.

  14. Tom

    The leftscum are forever trying to control the argument by controlling the language and the bonfire is the deconstructionism that the leftscum teaching fraternity has inserted into the secondary school curriculum as the new cleverarse trickery for the modern age designed to pave the way for the dismantling of tradition. Everything must change because shutup. This smartarse prick’s try-on is that the foundation of western civilisation — learning, Christian morality, compassion, democracy — has no value because its inhabitants are uneducated heathen racists. This from an apologist for a barbaric Third World political movement intent on destroying the West. An important interim objective of the leftscum is to entrench the destruction of common law individual rights developed over centuries in the West and the entrenching of group rights advanced by the leftscum in the past 30 years. Hence the fight over the RDA. It’s important. The left need to be defeated.

  15. Kingsley

    Are people who read and subscribe to Fairfax publications an ethnic group? “I’m a Fairfaxian, I’m morally superior to you”

  16. Riverina Matt

    This line from Aly’s article is apposite:

    if I may speak freely …

    Aly claims the right to speak freely but wishes to prevent others from claiming that same right – based on nothing other than ethnicity.

    Why can’t we all speak freely, Waleed?

  17. Luke

    It’s funny how this has made the true racists show their hands.

    The ‘reasonable person’ test has been around for over 100 years and is littered across all levels of laws in Australia and every other country. If the someone has problem with this and thinks it’s racist then they have a problem with most of Australia’s criminal laws and defences.

    This whole exercise has just proven that the HRC is anti-Anglo and against free speech (as if anyone needed more evidence). Shut it down and save the taxpayer millions. Besides, we have overlapping commission in each State.

  18. manalive

    I get the feeling that the last thing Aly wants is to be regarded as an ordinary Australian, albeit an exceptionally intelligent and accomplished Australian.

  19. Rabz

    Besides, we have overlapping commission in each State.

    They also need to be shut down with extreme prejudice. The situation is the same in Canuckistan, where even though the federal 18c equivalent was repealed, the provincial HRCs are still open to racist ethnic grievance mongers.

    I’m surprised no-one else is hammering away at this point. Just settle for one win at a time, presumably.

  20. Alf

    Does Nick Cater consider himself part of the elite? Nice to see him skewered when ridicule seems the only response ….

    http://loonpond.blogspot.com.au/

  21. ugh

    “Why can’t we all speak freely, Waleed?” – well said @Riverina Matt.

    If people say stupid racist things they reveal themselves to the world as a stupid racist – its an automatic punishment.

    And if you’re reading Waleed, try watching a pigment-deprived person walk through Fortitude Valley in Qld at night when the local indigenous population have had a skinful and then tell us that white people have no idea what its like to be racially abused.

    Having said that, I must give kudos to the creativity with which the above mentioned indigenous population describe pale-skinned people – “you f*****g white Captain Cook c**t” is easily the most creative insult I’ve received over the years…

  22. Rococo Liberal

    Aly, like all the lefties is trying to have the wrong argument.

    These pricks can see their little world evapourating as the government moves to take away their privileges. So they are going to make the stiry all about ‘rcism’ rather than freedom.

    They are either so stuopid or so nasty (perhaps both) that they just don’t want anyone o seee that just because something is not unlawful doesn’t mean that it is right o acceptable.

    The left want to dismantle completely what Lord <oulton called the the Third Desmesne, that area where custom and convention rules us through the the power od society itself and not government.

  23. Baldrick

    This should satisfy the leftists:

    (3) Whether an act is reasonably likely to have the effect specified in sub-section (1)(a) is to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community reader of The Age newspaper, not by the standards of any particular group within the of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community.

  24. C.L.

    How come all these folks don’t move to black majority countries where there’s no wacism and everybody’s nice?

  25. C.L.

    (3) Whether an act is reasonably likely to have the effect specified in sub-section (1)(a) is to be determined by the standards of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community reader of The Age newspaper, not by the standards of any particular group within the of an ordinary reasonable member of the Australian community. Say what you like.

  26. Driftforge

    So, lets be a bit blunter?

    (3) Whether an act is reasonably likely to have the effect specified in sub-section (1)(a) is to be determined by the standards of an culturally assimilated member of the Australian community

  27. Des Deskperson

    Someone ought to wedge Aly good and proper (as they say) by seeking his views on gay marriage. Whatever answer he gives will piss of part of his, err, constituency.

    Does anyone else get the impression, BTW, that Aly isn’t all that bright? I recall that Prof Bunyip had some views here, and Aly’s arguments here are simply regurgitations of the ‘victims’ line that ethnic lobbies like FECCA used to flog decades ago. One expects a bit more forensic originality these days.

  28. Token

    God forbid! The crowd at the front bar of the Royal Hotel in Koo Wee Rup might even get to have a say, and they don’t have a law degree among them according to the 2011 Census.

    Unlike Triggs, these people create wealth & enhance our society.

    When the telephone sanitisers, et al are sent on the spaceship to the “new world” the human rights commissioners & ABC staff must be given gold class seats on the flight.

  29. Token

    They are either so stuopid or so nasty (perhaps both) that they just don’t want anyone o seee that just because something is not unlawful doesn’t mean that it is right o acceptable.

    They can’t hear you over the bucket loads of public money they are stashing while they can.

    Bandits may change disguises, but not methods.

  30. Anne

    an ordinary reasonable Australian

    Obviously all media elites, bureaucrats, indeed all leftists would need to recuse themselves.

    Also anyone on the Altona Omnibus.

  31. .

    I’m ethnically West Saxon, Cumbrian and Welsh (with a tad of Strathclydian and Tipperary Irish). Does this count?

  32. Ivan Denisovich

    Perhaps the case for four is being presented by a wealthy white male, while his poor indigenous opponent believes the answer is five. And she’s right, according to reverse-hierarchy power theory, until an indigenous lesbian with no legs wheels up claiming the correct number is six.

    Waleed is a Victimhood Poker enthusiast:

    http://dicklist.blogspot.com/2006/07/tdl-gaming-world-series-of-victimhood.html

    Sorry whitey, no soup for you.

  33. .

    #1247858, posted on April 1, 2014 at 9:28 am
    Besides, we have overlapping commission in each State.

    They also need to be shut down with extreme prejudice. The situation is the same in Canuckistan, where even though the federal 18c equivalent was repealed, the provincial HRCs are still open to racist ethnic grievance mongers.

    I’m surprised no-one else is hammering away at this point. Just settle for one win at a time, presumably.

    rabz

    I’ve pointed it out. Only you and me. Personally I think Brandis needs Ludovico technique therapy for his ineptitude.

  34. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Don’t touch ‘ethnic’ with a barge pole.

    Stick to the common law. Ordinary man or woman.
    One of the things mental health professionals tell to those with delusions of grandeur is ‘try to think like an ordinary person’.

    Leftism is a mental illness.

  35. stackja

    Liberty Quotes
    I believe in something called free will. I think people should take responsibility for their own actions.
    — Brendan O’Neill

  36. LordAzrael

    Its a fundamental premise of English jurisprudence that we are to be judged by our peers. Hence why the use of reasonable person is the correct outcome, whereas using a ethnic subset is instead having one judged by their “victims” and turns what is objective into something that is subjective – again another dangerous direction, because one cannot predict what someone else may find offensive or humiliating.

  37. Jazza

    So,redefining the proffered AG’s sentence so it reverts to the same racial meaning as NOWin section 18C is Ok with them?
    What about the millions of others who have actively opposed that section all along.?
    I think it is inherently racist and if that cap fits those who want to retain it or reword it with the same meaning, let them wear it!
    Hold firm,(Saint) George!

  38. candy

    “Ethnic” groups are concerned about the amendment, however, and George Brandis needs to work with them. He has started off badly with his ‘right to be a bigot’. What a terrible turn of phrase.

  39. Rabz

    Personally I think Brandis needs Ludovico technique therapy for his ineptitude.

    I would love to be the person in the white coat administering the aforementioned therapy.

  40. Tintarella di Luna

    …dare say that I would likewise stand out in many parts of Australia too…

    You would certainly stand out in Auburn where I work

  41. Biota

    CL 9:50

    How come all these folks don’t move to black majority countries where there’s no wacism and everybody’s nice?

    Interesting, a group of us spent a month in India recently mostly away from the tourist routes. We were subject to endless racism because we were white- stared at, touched, photographed asked to be photographed with. It was actually all good fun and in a good spirit. If I caught the eye of someone staring and smiled they generally responded with a bigger smile.

    I think Wally’s problem is he has an inferiority complex from somewhere, as it appears a lot of his fellow race baiters do.

  42. Tintarella di Luna

    The ‘reasonable person’ test has been around for over 100 years and is littered across all levels of laws in Australia and every other country.

    Are you sure Luke the “reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus” is a concept in every other country or are you merely speaking about English-speaking nations — I don’t think the reasonable man was a concept of the legal institutions of say oh what about Egypt.

  43. Tintarella di Luna

    where racial targeting was the primary factor and who were the culprits involved.

    Well there have been incarcerated for some considerable time at least 20 young men of ethnic ME/Pakistani background for rape of who deliberately targetted Australian white caucasian young girls.

  44. .

    LordAzrael
    #1247927, posted on April 1, 2014 at 10:26 am
    Its a fundamental premise of English jurisprudence that we are to be judged by our peers.

    That’s so ethno-normative of you to say…

  45. Ant

    If racism and injustice really worried Wal as much as he pretends, he’d pack his kit and head off to one or many of the brutully run Islamic autocracies to challenge a ruling mullah or two (or ten) about this and that word or nuance in the Koran that some his ‘brothers’ seem to think gives them a God given right to treat women like cattle.

    Feel that slight twitchy feeling in the neck, Wal ol’ buddy?

  46. Tintarella di Luna

    Interesting, a group of us spent a month in India recently mostly away from the tourist routes. We were subject to endless racism because we were white- stared at, touched, photographed asked to be photographed with. It was actually all good fun and in a good spirit. If I caught the eye of someone staring and smiled they generally responded with a bigger smile.

    I think Wally’s problem is he has an inferiority complex from somewhere, as it appears a lot of his fellow race baiters do.

    A relative chose to honeymoon in India — she and her husband had never been to India, they’d been to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos etc… but they chose India the honeymoon was meant to be the romantic experience as evoked by the Taj Mahal — they had the worst time, very similar to what you described Biota but there was just the two bill-and-cooers on their own. They came home early the bride in tears. I guess they’ll never forget the their honeymoon.

  47. oldsalt

    The first duty of any truly civilised society is to protect its children. What Brandis proposes doesn’t satisfy this. Nor does JS. Mill.

  48. incoherent rambler

    “You are a wanker, Bob”

    Guess which PM has this insult hurled at him from a Melbourne street?

    An obvious slur on all monosexuals.

    The argument for restricting speech is that we can prevent the “hurt” of taunts and jeers. That words can threaten our social and/or political stability, in fact, the opposite is true.

    Brandis would better serve his constituents by working towards a social, legal and political system that is not threatened by words. Free and open discussion of any topic should be the right of all, not a right restricted to our politicians.

  49. DaveA

    To Waleed it’s all about colour: shouldn’t ‘ethnic’ simply read ‘brown’?

  50. johanna

    If the Brandis amendment gets up, I look forward to the first person who lodges a dispute about being called “a white c***” by an Aborigine or a woman who is called a “filthy slut” by a Muslim because part of her skin is showing.

    As a wyminnses, I am frankly frightened of the attitudes (and consequent actions) of fundamentalist Muslims. It first came to my attention about 30 years ago, when my (female) boss told me about an exchange with a Turkish Muslim taxi-driver, who told her that “a woman is worth less than a glass of water.” She said that he said it in all sincerity. I’ve never forgotten it; it chilled me to the bone.

  51. Boss Hog

    As a tall, pale skinned, strawberry-blonde female with Anglo-Celtic/Viking

    Well, you might be Anglo, but if you’re tall, pale skinned, and strawberry-blonde you certainly ain’t of Viking heritage, nor Celtic for that matter. Firstly, Hollywood aside, Viking is a verb, not a noun. Moreover, the vast majority of the Norse invaders of Britain during the 8th., 9th., & 10th. Centuries came from Denmark – a few Swedes & Norwegians (in today’s parlance) were involved, but mostly of no account. Secondly, Danes of the period were short, stocky & dark-complected, likewise the Celts. If you really are pale skinned, and strawberry-blonde you are probably of Saxon heritage. Don’t worry about it, honey, feel proud, the Saxons ended up kicking Norse ass big time, anyway!
    Keerist, the ignorance of today’s youth!

  52. Geriatric Mayfly

    Why doesn’t Brandis toss it in and call a referendum to amend the Constitution. “Parliament shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.” Done.

  53. incoherent rambler

    Why doesn’t Brandis toss it in and call a referendum to amend the Constitution. “Parliament shall make no law abridging freedom of speech.” Done.

    Parliament shall make no law abridging freedom of speech; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  54. Hoaxx

    Where’s Wally?
    Over there on the far far far left.
    “Sunni oh so true, I love you.”

  55. .

    Jefferson?

    Term limits. Sunset clauses. etc.

  56. oldsalt

    Yep Johanna according to his cultural values that taxi driver may have been a reasonable Muslim person. Indig males who abuse women and kids in the communities may also be reasonable persons in terms of their law. Some of their cultural practices are not reasonable to most of us and we want laws that ensure our values are dominant. We also need special protection for children to protect them from racial abuse and its consequences, this includes setting a standard to deter adults from passing harmful racist attitudes to another generation. 18c doesn’t do this but remains better than any of the current proposed alternatives.

  57. Senile Old Guy

    oldsalt:

    We also need special protection for children to protect them from racial abuse and its consequences, this includes setting a standard to deter adults from passing harmful racist attitudes to another generation.

    What are you going to do? CCTV in every room in every home so all behaviour can be monitored and controlled? How very progressive.

  58. incoherent rambler

    The stupidity of trying to legislate for control of speech.

    Never get involved in a land war in Asia – Racist?

    Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line – Definitely racist.

  59. oldsalt

    Nope but 18c is still better than the alternatives currently offered by Brandis. JS Mill was a racist who hardly gave a thought to the rights of children. We’ve moved on. Making law in 2014 based on his version of free speech is like letting the creationists slip Genesis into our kids’ science curriculum.

  60. Hoaxx

    Dread Pirate Rambler love your work.

  61. Mater

    We also need special protection for children to protect them from racial abuse and its consequences, this includes setting a standard to deter adults from passing harmful racist attitudes to another generation. 18c doesn’t do this but remains better than any of the current proposed alternatives.

    it has tangible benefits for achieving other, unrelated, ends!

    FIFY

  62. Senile Old Guy

    So here’s some of that racism in the CLP:

    Francis Xavier, a senior Tiwi Islands elder, says he he was disrespected whenever he walked into government offices in parliament house. “Every time I walk in on the fifth floor, they keep saying, ‘Frankie, Frankie, Frankie, crazy Frankie,” he said.

    Insulting? Offensive? I can accept that. But racist? Oops! Sorry! Forgot to check my privilege. Not being in the appropriate ethnic group, I can’t judge.

    * I am not suggesting that racial abuse has never been directed at any of these by CLP members. Or ALP members. Or anyone.

  63. Alfonso

    “….crazy Frankie,”

    Well….is he?
    Truth is a defence.

  64. Paul

    “How come all these folks don’t move to black majority countries where there’s no wacism and everybody’s nice?”

    How about Liberia, where “nice” refers to the flavour of your freshly removed heart. Still, plenty of other failed States to choose from if dining out (of body) isn’t your thing.

  65. Paul

    “a white c***” by an Aborigine”

    Often extended to a “white cap’ncook c***” on a really bad day.

  66. JC

    Has someone dropped a bunch of imbeciles on the site?

  67. A Lurker

    Well, you might be Anglo, but if you’re tall, pale skinned, and strawberry-blonde you certainly ain’t of Viking heritage, nor Celtic for that matter.

    If you want to be specific, my ancestry is English, Scottish and Norman-French (and the Normans were originally Vikings, aka ‘Northmen’). I dare say there is Saxon in there as well. The red hair (and strawberry blonde is a version of red) might be Celtic or it might be from the Vikings – after all there was a lot of ‘gene swapping’ going on due to raiding, raping, and carrying off women for slaves and wives. ;-)

  68. oldsalt

    SOG The CLP of South Irian used to keep free speech well under their jackboots. Stone once wrote a grovelling in the bilge letter to Suharto apologising for an article in the NT news and making everyone present take an oath they’d never divulge it. Of course, the loyal Aussies told the adults from the Commonwealth and the Indons told their Consulate. Woulda been interesting to hear the Haji Suharto’s reaction upon reading the letter from his loyal suckholes in the CLP , ‘South Irian’s in our pocket General!”

  69. james

    Oldsalt up to his oldtricks.

    Anyone who feels that speech codes based on subjective offense are appropriate better not voice such an opinion in my presence.

    A broken nose can sometimes offend.

  70. Token

    We also need special protection for children to protect them from racial abuse and its consequences, this includes setting a standard to deter adults from passing harmful racist attitudes to another generation. 18c doesn’t do this but remains better than any of the current proposed alternatives.

    The same people who cry “think of the children” seem to be detirmined to ensure they control the process of selecting the judges who hear such cases.

    All up, those judges don’t seem to hear cases about children, rather focus on political hatchet jobs to impose totalitarian controls on those who hold different opinions.

  71. Token

    SOG The CLP of South Irian used to keep free speech well under their jackboots.

    Would you be so kind to provide a link to substantiate the extreme statement?

  72. oldsalt

    Token, just ask Stone or one of the others who were there. Loizou wrote the offending article and you’ll be able to track it down. Cheers.

  73. Senile Old Guy

    Token:

    Would you be so kind to provide a link to substantiate the extreme statement?

    And, of course, the response is:

    Token, just ask Stone or one of the others who were there.

    I’m not saying oldsalt is wrong — Stone was a strange bird — but he never offers proof to substantiate his conspiracy stories.

  74. Toiling Mass

    Wasn’t there also an explicit definition of ‘vilify’ for the purposes of the act?

    To put Wally’s mind to rest we might need to amend that to “to cause a non-white person or persons to say they are offended, hurty-feelied or embarrassed”.

    After all we can only tell they are offended etc. when they tell us. But we can trust activists, can’t we, not to just claim offence to engage in lawfare?

  75. johanna

    Yes, Boss, a lot of Danes are short and dark. It just highlights how stupid and anti-scientific theories about “race” are. There is nobody on this planet who knows for sure who their ancestors are, especially given that while maternity is reasonably (but not always) able to be verified, paternity is not.

  76. oldsalt

    SOG if you were around at the time you will know the coterie who were involved and likely to have been present, so just ask them already. Two Indons were also present including a journo. Loizou went to the Big Greencan in the sky not long ago but you can easily track down his offending article and subsequent forced apology. He only grovelled because he wanted a freebie on Stone’s next jet to Asia. Conspiracies? I had family involved, still do.

  77. incoherent rambler

    Now that we have all agreed that laws to constrain people from speaking their thoughts are akin to slavery (h/t Euripides). The limits, I guess, are sedition and treason.

    Is it time to update our definitions of treason and sedition? (Any examples from the left of politics?)
    Was it Waleed who asserted that terrorism is just an “inconvenience”?

  78. Senile Old Guy

    I can find reference to one article:

    John Loizou, ‘Secret talks herald oil boom’, Sunday Territorian, 15 December 1991.

    No reference to a letter written by Shane Stone. No apology.

    And exactly why should I start contacting people to confirm a conspiracy theory that you have offered nothing but anecdotal evidence for? FFS, get real.

    I will add this, if 1991 was the era, Federal ALP was in power.

  79. Anne

    incoherent rambler
    #1248108, posted on April 1, 2014 at 1:42 pm
    The stupidity of trying to legislate for control of speech.

    Never get involved in a land war in Asia – Racist?

    Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line – Definitely racist.

    Don’t forget..”Australia is a country entirely peopled by criminals.”

    One of my favourite movies! Mandy Patinkin is wonderful as Inigo Montoya, the vengeful Spaniard. “Not a lot of money in revenge”. …unless you’re a human rights lawyer. ;-D

  80. Token

    And exactly why should I start contacting people to confirm a conspiracy theory that you have offered nothing but anecdotal evidence for? FFS, get real

    We’ve seen many types of thread wrecking here, the unsubstantiated smear is a predicable and low bog standard approach.

    All up, it makes all of oldsalt’s posts dubious and underlines the type of people who want 18C around for years to come as a tool to beat their political enemies (while ignoring the disgraceful abuse committed by those who are their political allies).

  81. nilk

    Has someone dropped a bunch of imbeciles on the site?

    Yes.

  82. Anne

    johanna
    #1248197, posted on April 1, 2014 at 3:05 pm
    Yes, Boss, a lot of Danes are short and dark. It just highlights how stupid and anti-scientific theories about “race” are. There is nobody on this planet who knows for sure who their ancestors are, especially given that while maternity is reasonably (but not always) able to be verified, paternity is not.

    I’ve heard cuckoldry is represented in ten percent of births. This couldn’t possibly be true, could it?
    By the way I’m 25% Dane and not a but like that.

  83. oldsalt

    SOG well don’t then. The offending article recounted an incident in which pro Indonesian East Timorese and Indonesian delegates at an NT expo meeting jostled, threw files at eachother and threatened fisticuffs after an heated argument about oil. John’s piece was multisourced and gave more weight than was probably due to the fisticuffs element over file throwing. I’m sure Adlam remembers too.

  84. Anne

    JC
    #1248161, posted on April 1, 2014 at 2:34 pm
    Has someone dropped a bunch of imbeciles on the site?

    I’ll go.

  85. johanna

    Anne, I’m ethnically Dutch, with forbears on one side who are all fair, and on the other who are a bit mixed but mostly fair. Well, one sister and I are fair, and the other is very dark and much smaller.

    You know what? It doesn’t mean a damned thing. We are sisters – that’s it.

  86. Senile Old Guy

    Anne:

    By the way I’m 25% Dane and not a but like that.

    ?

  87. Senile Old Guy

    oldsalt:

    SOG well don’t then. The offending article recounted an incident in which pro Indonesian East Timorese and Indonesian delegates at an NT expo meeting jostled, threw files at each other and threatened fisticuffs after an heated argument about oil.

    All of which is of no relevance to 18c or to anything I have posted.

  88. Abu Chowdah

    This line from Aly’s article is apposite:

    “if I may speak freely …”

    Waleed Aly’s article was a massive troll. He engaged in bigotry to show us naughty white chaps what it might feel like to be the subject of prejudice. I expect he thinks he’s been very clever indeed, and is amassing a dossier of comments and blogposts that have taken umbrage at his little thought experiment. In his self-satisfied, smug mind, this article is the 21st centuries “Modest Proposal”. You’ve all been played.

    Just wait for the second shoe to drop.

  89. oldsalt

    I.Rambler your suggestion is timely and important as later this year the National Security Committee will begin considering this very issue and the Abbott Gov, quite rightly, will almost certainly introduce new legislation to curb the free speech of those who would harm this Nation, including those in the media.

  90. Anne

    Senile Old Guy
    #1248249, posted on April 1, 2014 at 3:51 pm
    Anne:

    By the way I’m 25% Dane and not a but like that.

    ?

    Yeah, I should have proof read. The ‘o’ and the ‘i’ are so close together! Anyway, if you add a’t’ it works both ways. ;-)

  91. Rococo Liberal

    So Old Salt is another person who doesn’t understand the difference between speech and deeds, Betraying secrets is not speaking, it is doing. hence, criminalising treason is not restricting free speech.

  92. Rococo Liberal

    I think I realise why so many idiots hate freedom and prefer statism. it is because they have a doubt in their ability to succeed in life on their own merits alone. They have to use the coercive power of the State to steal from the rest of us. Only totalitarian states have speech laws. We are free people here in Australia, we don’t need our feelings looked after by the State.

  93. .

    In his self-satisfied, smug mind, this article is the 21st centuries “Modest Proposal”. You’ve all been played.

    Not I sir. I thought he was a rolled gold fuckwit before, during and after this charade.

  94. cohenite

    You’ve all been played.

    Whatever happened to taking things at face value; ie Aly is a bigot who despises Western democracy and its white Anglo heritage from the elevated vantage point of his muslim extremism which he expresses in snide, venom spitting fashion at every opportunity.

    And anyone who rushes to castigate the little prick for his hypocrisy and cant has been sucked in to his clever ploy and revealed in Tar baby fashion to be a bigot. Which begs the question, is there ever the right time to call a muslim spade a fucking IED?

  95. johanna

    Nobody who has followed Aly’s career thinks that he was anything but serious when he wrote this pile of dog feces.

  96. oldsalt

    Rococo if an individual steals from the State to harm the greater good and the lives of fellow citizens by compromising an ongoing operation in an unauthorised manner, she/he should be deterred from speaking freely to the media, and those to whom the information has cascaded should also be deterred from speaking freely of it. The current laws don’t prevent this. What would you do?

  97. Tel

    This matters because – if I may speak freely – plenty of Progressive meeja people (who are all very reasonable because they say so) are good at telling absolutely bloody everyone what they should and shouldn’t find racist, without even the slightest awareness that other people’s opinions even exist.

    If there isn’t enough racism around the place, such people will surely look harder to find some. Next week you will be a racist for doing exactly what you did last week – that’s to keep us all on our toes, which is good for society, and especially good for ethnic people.

    Worst of all are those coloured people who fail to sufficiently take offence and start to – if I may speak freely – wander off the plantation, and fraternise with their enemy. These sad helpless ethnics need looking after by their betters and the mere fact that it seems they are deluged by abuse is not racism (says the Progressives and they know about these things, better than anyone) it’s for their own good.

  98. BlueCollarLawyer

    2007 – A video emerges on social media sites depicting a number of Australian soldiers binge drinking. One amongst their midst is clad in a KKK costume whilst his mates applaud his antics. As you would expect, the release of this video resulted in substantial embarrassment for the Australian military.

    John Howard (PM) and Brendon Nelson (Defence Minister) sought to downplay the incident by urging the Australian public to not overreact. Commenting on the stress commonly encountered by those in the defence forces, they described the incident as having been motivated by those involved as letting of steam and a touch of larrikin irreverence.

    Is this an example of privileged white men advising a minority on what they should or should not find offensive?

  99. Infidel Tiger

    Which bit was offensive? The binge drinking or wearing the official uniform of Democratic Party?

  100. Infidel Tiger

    And who was the minority?

  101. BlueCollarLawyer

    Aly’s concerns re: the proposed amendment to sec. 18(c) are best summarised as follows.

    In its current guise, sec 18(c) allows a court to consider whether a reasonable person of the same ethnicity as the complainant would find the commentary offensive.

    If amended as proposed, we’re left with an ‘Australian ordinary reasonable person’. From a legal perspective, this fictional being is supposed to be race neutral and an accurate reflection of someone drawn from the majority Australian populace.

    This somewhat takes us back to the now infamous KFC advertisement depicting a white Australian spectator quelling his raucous West Indian spectators with a bucket of fried chicken. Racist as all hell in America, where blacks have long been lampooned as being suckers for fried chicken. In Australia, it is more or less a “non-event” given – in part – to KFC’s long-standing association as a cricket sponsor and secondly, to the very real fact that virtually none of us view fried chicken as a food favoured by one identifiable group over another.

    However, the fact remains that the advertisement would ostensibly:

    (i) cause offence to African Americans (perhaps blacks in general) who are resident in Australia; and

    (ii) diminish Australia’s standing in some overseas countries, namely the US and to a lesser extent the UK.

  102. BlueCollarLawyer

    Another example, some years back … a number of performers appearing on Hey Hey It’s Saturday sporting blackface. Harry Connick Jr, a guest on the show, was visibly upset and came close to walking off.

    Would an Australian reasonable ordinary person consider blackface as having the potential to case offence, insult and humiliation?

  103. Infidel Tiger

    Blacks are suckers for fried chicken. They are obsessed by it.

    The Australian Aboriginal (black variety, not genus Fitzroy Palefaceus) are also very partial to some dirty bird done greasy style.

    I am too.

  104. BlueCollarLawyer

    Do you prefer original recipe or hot n’spicy?

    Someone should tell KFC to have hot n’spicy all year round.

  105. Rabz

    Would an Australian reasonable ordinary person consider blackface as having the potential to case offence, insult and humiliation?

    Why don’t you ask Radike Samo what he thinks of blackface, you sanctimonious, barking mad cretin?

  106. Infidel Tiger

    I’m partial to both.

    I love KFC chips when hungover.

  107. Baldrick

    BCL … the only thing missing out of KFC is U – so do us all a favour and go KFC yourself.

  108. BlueCollarLawyer

    Johanna,

    The Racial Discrimination Act is of application to all persons in Australia, although most erroneously believe that only minorities may avail themselves of the same.

    However, the fact remains that – in practice – the conduct called into question must be seriously, substantial or severe. A brief episode of name calling will not suffice.

  109. Rabz

    Balders – he had any KFC, he’d end up having to denounce himself as a racist and there’s no telling what might end up happening then.

  110. Fisky

    @BCL, Aly’s objections are reasonable insofar as there is any case for the law to be concerned with people’s feelings. But there is no reason for the law having anything to do with this area at all. None.

  111. Infidel Tiger

    BCL you’re a lawyer. Riddle me this. My missus likes putting on fake tan. Should i Section 18c the racist beast?

  112. Baldrick

    Rabz, BCL can eat as much KFC as he wishes, as long as it’s Halal certified!

  113. BlueCollarLawyer

    “Why don’t you ask Radike Samo what he thinks of blackface, you sanctimonious, barking mad cretin?”

    Because Radike is one man and not, by some mystical occurrence, a conglomeration of every dark-skinned person in Australia.

  114. BlueCollarLawyer

    “BCL you’re a lawyer. Riddle me this. My missus likes putting on fake tan. Should i Section 18c the racist beast?”

    No more than you should sec.18(c) a black woman for using hair straightener. :-)

  115. Rabz

    Bullshit – Samo’s an entirely reasonable Australian. One who didn’t wet his pants and start bleating racism like the loathsome, sanctimonious white morons who did. If anyone had a right to be ‘offended’ by the blackface, it was Samo. His reaction spoke volumes about both the man and the obnoxious critics of the fans.

    Why do you consider Samo as being incapable of being considered reasonable in this instance?

    Oh, that’s right – because you’re drooling racist lefty cretin.

  116. incoherent rambler

    Folks, we have all read the loony lefts defence of Aly.
    The weak attempt confirms that we must demand the constitutional right to free speech.
    The left has a new found fear of free speech. This in itself is enough repeal all laws that restrict free and open discussion.
    Let Rabz speak (or write) his thoughts.

  117. Dan

    That hey hey skit was performed by coloured people who also happened to be plastic surgeons.

    Comedy died that night

  118. candy

    Would an Australian reasonable ordinary person consider blackface as having the potential to case offence, insult and humiliation?

    Nah, it seemed funny at the time.
    It just had to be pointed out to Australians that it could be considered racist in front of others.
    It was an honest mistake that performers would not make again.

  119. incoherent rambler

    FFS – how do we have a free and open discussion about existing laws?
    As the law stands we cannot speak freely.

  120. Snoopy

    However, the fact remains that the advertisement would ostensibly:

    For how long has ‘ostensibly’ meant ‘not’?

  121. tomix

    Let’s remember humourist [and cabinet secretary] Earl Butz.

  122. Leigh Lowe

    Does it pass muster with 18c (as interpreted by Mordy) to call an honest fence builder a “big, fat, Greek bullshit artist”?

  123. candy

    My trouble with Waleed Aly’s article is that he has managed to divide people more, rather than attempt to reach common ground and understanding.
    It’s not what he said – it’s the way that he said it. He’s put a whole swathe of people offside and surely a good opinion writer should phrase things better to help people understand him. Not helpful.

  124. Rabz

    Leigh, I believe it was simply: “he’s just a big Greek bullshit artist”.

    No mention of girth or otherwise. You’re thinking of another notorious Melbourne Greek.

  125. .

    Is this an example of privileged white men

    Spare the theatrics, John Howard worked for his position in society.

    (i) cause offence to African Americans (perhaps blacks in general) who are resident in Australia; and

    (ii) diminish Australia’s standing in some overseas countries, namely the US and to a lesser extent the UK.

    Looney left?

    This is like getting a 12 year old kid to make decisions. Dumb dumb dumb.

    THIS CAUSED OFFENCE TO BLACK PEOPLE! (Maybe?)

    THIS AD WAS A DIPLOMATIC EMBARRASSMENT (Well, it was a non issue but let’s not have the truth get in the way of a good story…)

    LOL. You idiot. The law is being repealed because it is odious. You think the RDA as it stands is a font of philosophical wisdom. Fucking deadshit.

  126. BlueCollarLawyer

    Rabz,

    Everything has to be placed in context. Samo showed exemplary sportsmanship in taking he episode lightly and with good humour. It was visibly apparently to him that the two gents concerned were fans and further meant well.

    Had those same two gents then headed into town for a night out without having first changed, I doubt their presence would have been quite as well received.

    BCL

  127. .

    Had those same two gents then headed into town for a night out without having first changed, I doubt their presence would have been quite as well received.

    This is not the basis for civilisation. You fucking child. You are not fit to work with men.

  128. CatAttack

    I am always intrigued by the notion of Muslim asylum seekers passing through Indonesia the largest Muslim nation in the world to poor old racist Australia based as it is on a largely Judeo-Christian tradition where folk so we are told subject them to daily offence and abuse. Really?

  129. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Viking is a verb, not a noun.

    Actually, Boss Hog, it can be both. To go Viking was certainly an activity, but it could also be a noun or adjective, and to be a Viking was certainly an ethnicity. Some see the term as originating in Norway’s viks (inlets). In castigating today’s strawberry blonde and pale-skinned ‘youth’ (that’s me too buddy) for ignorance about their genetic heritage, I suggest you should have less surety about the genetics of North-Western European origins. It has been quite a mixed bag for millenia, taking in wandering populations from across the steppes and up the coastlines from Spain from very early migrations. Plus a lot of Norwegians found their way around the top of Britain to the Western Isles and Ireland, from at least the C4th onwards and populated Ireland and the Isle of Man and Cumbria in Britain. The ‘Saxons’ were a polyglot lot too. They didn’t necessarily come from Saxony, in fact very few did and the term was applied to any Germanic language speaker who came to Britain in Roman times and after that. The ‘Saxon Shore’ was more likely to have been a trading operation than a defensive one, and the ‘Saxon invasion’ is fast these days going the way of the Celtic one; i.e. it is chimeric.

    Ethnicity is a construct about identity. As is race. The modern world has little place for such things, except as historical markers. We are all living under a single nation; equal under law. Only way to go.

  130. BlueCollarLawyer

    CatAttack,

    It’s simple. Indonesia is not a party to the UN Refugee Convention.

    They can do with any asylum seeker what they like, including refoulement – which means sending the individual back to the very country in which they claim to have a fear of persecution.

    BCL

  131. incoherent rambler

    Ethnicity is a construct about identity.

    The construct has a profound effect on Yugoslavia.

    The issue is one of division. The left like to divide. As Aly tries to do.
    I can think of few examples where groups of people(Irish excepted) are better off divided than they are united.

  132. incoherent rambler

    s/has/had/

  133. oldsalt

    RI though, like the Jesuit Refugee Service, does play favorites and Rohingyas are now entering RI as a final destination because they have enough unofficial political support to ensure officialdom winks, sometimes.

  134. cohenite

    It’s simple. Indonesia is not a party to the UN Refugee Convention.

    What a bunch of bullshit. Iran and Afghanistan are members; so fucking what.

  135. Gab

    Iran and Afghanistan are members; so fucking what.

    Yeah, I was having a chuckle when I read bcl’s comment about Indonesia given the list of totalitarian shitholes that have signed the convention. Means nothing.

  136. Dave up north qld

    Tenant Creek Red Rooster had biggest turnover out of about 8 shops in two states.

  137. Fisky

    It’s simple. Indonesia is not a party to the UN Refugee Convention.

    This is entirely irrelevant. There are UNHCR offices in Indonesia where asylum seekers can register. The point of the boat journey to Australia is to circumvent this process.

  138. oldsalt

    Many register first in Malaysia and have a UNHCR card when they arrive in RI. Many don’t register because they don’t want the State to know of their presence. The number living in the the twin residential smuggling hubs of Puncak and Bogor actually increased during the last month to approx 1200, may be because more are registering, may be due to increased arrivals.

  139. Dan

    Got a link for that oldsalt?

  140. Pedro the Ignorant

    Where is “RI”?

    Google tells me it is Rhode Isalnd.

  141. CatAttack

    Thanks BCL I appreciate the legal situation in Indonesia and understand the reasons for people coming here.

    But why Australia? The land of racist bigots where people are exposed to outrageous hostility and racism. The same Australia described self loathingly on the ABC as the most racist place in the world. Isn’t that why Asylum Seekers are leaving their own country in the first place. To escape this treatment. The point being it can’t be such a bad place after all. We’re a long way from perfect but were not bad.

  142. CatAttack

    PS the point is refugees are choosing with their money and their lives to live in a largely secular country with a Christian tradition. The best advertisement there is that is Australia is not overwhelmingly a racist society.

  143. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    It was an honest mistake that performers would not make again.

    Yes, Candy. Like ‘dumb Irish’ jokes. There are too many smart Irish around now for those to amuse. Similarly, ahem, dumb blondes.

    Although I know people, Irish and otherwise, who can still get a laugh out of an incompetent alcohol-sodden Irishman. Mr. O’Leary, the Irish builder in in Fawlty Towers, can still raise a laugh or two here at Manyana Towers (our south coast beach house). Dumb blonde jokes are OK too, within reason. :)

  144. .

    Fisky
    #1248756, posted on April 2, 2014 at 12:02 am
    It’s simple. Indonesia is not a party to the UN Refugee Convention.

    This is entirely irrelevant. There are UNHCR offices in Indonesia where asylum seekers can register. The point of the boat journey to Australia is to circumvent this process.

    This is sort of funny. We are being played for fools.

  145. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    hahaha. I was just thinking that I should tell people who object to jokes from other days and times “to lighten up”. But oh dear me, what would 18C think about that??

  146. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The little book of ‘Best Dublin Jokes’, by the way, is full of ‘dumb Irish’ jokes. The Irish don’t mind taking the Mickey out of themselves with these. And as the book proudly points out, a lot of these ‘jokes’ are real tales of misunderstandings and terrible failures, often associated with the Dublin accent, not apocryphal ones.

  147. Nanuestalker

    An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotman entered a bar and the barman said: “What is this … some kind of joke?

  148. .

    From our liberty quotes:

    I would rather die than shut up!
    — Lars Hedegaard

  149. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    I would rather die than shut up!

    Oh, certainly, with regard to freedom of speech. And in my own case, with regard to any speech at all. I would definitely die if I shut up. I do love a chat, though Da Hairy Ape says I am prone to offer ‘too much information’, whereas he is a very measured type. Steve from Brisbane said on his blog that I could talk underwater, and for once, he was not wrong. But Stevie of late fame, that is when I am writing something and my mind runs away with my touch-typing fingers.

    I do have very quiet moments at home and I really dislike being seated anywhere next to a continual (and loud) talker, especially in restaurants and on airlines. Is there anything more irritating than being located near to someone dominating the air and ear space with their raised and never-ending babble?

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