Bureaucratic madness

We were at dinner last night and hearing about an instance of complete bureaucratic madness.  The woman telling the story is a very energetic and competent person in her 60s.

For a number of years, she has been a volunteer driver, ferrying mainly frail elderly women to doctor’s appointments, run errands, sometimes just for a drive.  She had got to know many of the clients and a strong rapport has been built up.  The clients paid a small fee – I think it was $5 or $10 – as a contribution towards the cost of the service.

The scheme is a joint one, run by the local council and partly funded by the state government.  Anyway, there was a pool of cars which the volunteers could use.  The man who ran the scheme was kindly and efficient and managed the volunteers well.

All this has now changed.  Some unknown committee decided that the scheme would have to change to keep up with the times.  The manager was effectively forced out and is now on stress leave.

A new, higher-paid female has taken his place and insisted that:

  • Cash payments would no longer be received and clients must use electronic transfer payments methods.  Needless to say, most of the clients don’t even have a computer, so this has involved the volunteers taking the clients down the bank to arrange the transfer, for which the banks are charging a fee (as high as $4.50).
  • The volunteer drivers are not allowed to provide anymore than 2 services to the same client in a given period lest an unhealthy relationship develop between the volunteer and client.
  • The volunteers have all had to resubmit for police checks.
  • The availability of cars has now become chaotic (this aspect had been well managed before) and volunteers often arrive to find no cars are available to meet booked commitments.

And, lo and behold, a far swag of the volunteers have now quit, annoyed at the arrogance and stupidity of the new manager and the new rules.  What seemed like a pretty good service – most of the clients live alone and do not have family living close by – looks to be on the point of collapse.

If this story were not depressing enough, I know of other similar instances.  Where’s the common sense, I ask?

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132 Responses to Bureaucratic madness

  1. Kingsley

    As Glenn Reynolds says “tar n feathers”

  2. Gab

    Common sense is rare and the new female in charge has ego issues but has clearly conned some willing and useful idiots at the council. Common sense doesn’t even make an appearance when the ego is puffed up in it’s own narcissism. This is a lose-lose-lose situation.

  3. Mike of Marion

    Common sense went out years ago!!!

  4. calli

    A new, higher-paid female has taken his place

    Says it all really.

  5. Gab

    Higher paid female destroys an existing efficiently run program. Slow-clap the quota nazis and feministas.

  6. Tintarella di Luna

    What a shemozzle, but typical. Perhaps the manager can just set up his own little volunteer service himself. Go for broke on the industrial relations front and use that as seed money for his new venture. I suppose the scheme started as a community enterprise in the first instance and has been tainted with the breath of death – bureaucracy – the enemy of flexibility.

  7. Any chance of the council being named – and shamed?

    Or we all too scared yo be that honest these days?

  8. pete m

    In my job I hear bullying horror stories so regularly I wonder what possesses people.

    By far the worst as females in charge of nurses. By a long long way. Amongst obviously some good decent people are creatures who are pure evil. They ought to be run out of town, but most are protected by even worse higher up managers.

    They keep it very quiet, but the rate of bullying in the p/s would easily outstrip any other business division.

  9. Tintarella di Luna

    Any chance of the council being named – and shamed?

    Please Judith do tell. The endarkenment must be exposed.

  10. mundi

    I am shocked. Shocked that this scheme existed at all. I would have thought they would ban this as an illegal taxi service etc.

  11. stackja

    Where’s the common sense, I ask?

    Today we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense.
    Common Sense lived a long life but died from heart failure at the brink of the millennium. No one really knows how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
    He selflessly devoted his life to service in schools, hospitals, homes, factories and offices, helping folks get jobs done without fanfare and foolishness.
    Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/commonsense.asp#hDhZHZT1l1QEHClM.99

  12. Tintarella di Luna

    They keep it very quiet, but the rate of bullying in the p/s would easily outstrip any other business division.

    Nothing compared to the mauve mafia at work

  13. Alfonso

    Govt was irritated at its lack of control and had to assert itself. “Authorities” have very sensitive egos when ignored.

  14. Baldrick

    Volunteers providing a community service to the elderly are managed by a paid council staff member who systematically stuffs it.
    Sound to me like somebody’s ego and self-importance ranks higher than helping the elderly. Well done … wanker of the week award.

  15. john constantine

    i backed out of running for council–local councils are now simply ‘yes minister’. the wymynses that flock to human resources and oh and s have it down pat.

    they have the flowchart to implement,and don’t care for any world outside the flowchart.

    legal liability is their club of choice. the system has free legal assault troops,and the victims have to pay their own way,right or wrong.

    the christine nixon management blueprint has won.the whole point is that the system runs all according to the approved flowchart. any manager is interchangeable with any other.

    anything not specifically permitted,and actioned according to pre-approved guidelines,is to be exterminated.

    the value of non-approved actions does not matter,it is the civil disobedience that has to be crushed.council workers that crush non approved operations earn brownie points with the ‘occupy council’ push.there is a genuine career path for toecutters.

  16. john of dandenong

    Lets get some of our self appointed we-know-better-than-you social engineers on the job, e.g., Adams, Summers, Mann, and Marr.

  17. Habib

    Widespread, and endemic. Little different if it’s an allegedly conservative or Labor/Green politburo in office, how do we rid ourselvees of this statist imbecility, short of tumbrills?

  18. calli

    I found this one particularly enlightening as to the mindset of the new ‘manageress’ (heheheh):

    ◾The volunteer drivers are not allowed to provide anymore than 2 services to the same client in a given period lest an unhealthy relationship develop between the volunteer and client

    Heaven forbid that an elderly person might make a friend. They may do something really underhand and offer their driver a scone or (shudder) a cuppa after hours.

    The manageress (heheheh) has no relationships that vaguely resemble ‘friendships’, so such a situation would be completely opaque to her.

  19. john constantine

    i know some council stalinistas that are perfectly fine after hours,pass for human in fact. they just flip a switch for a few hours a week,and take the good and easy money for it. sociopathic,schizophrenic,or just taking the easy money to fund the good life?.

    it isn’t my fault,i am only following orders. the effort to distort the system is not worth the career ending blacklisting.

  20. Kingsley

    I wonder what the ratio of sociopaths in the public sector compared to private sector is?

  21. Bushdoc

    For anyone working in the health, disability and aged care services, this not just commonplace but sadly becoming the norm.
    I am a country GP, let me give you just one example. Until last year, if you or an outreach nurse or family member felt your ageing relative was getting to the point of needing supported care, you simply had to organise an ACAT assessment. ACAT is an acronym for aged care assessment team. Inspite of its grandiose title, it is imply a bureacratic tool, used by government as a funding tool for hostels and nursing homes. No ACAT no nursing home. Until last year, I as a doctor could simply contact the local ACAT assessment officer ( an occupational therapist), who would quickly go and perform the assessment. With this we could progress applications for admission to care facilities.
    However some bored genius in the South Australian Heath department thought they knew better, and set up a centralised office. Building, staff, letterhead, logo and mission statement. Now you have to write a referral ( previously a phone call was all it took), the office then assesses, prioritises, and organises the assessment. So not only is it taking upwards of 2 months to get what was usually done in days ( meanwhile patient occupying public hospital bed or no other reason than can’t be transferred to care facility, bed block lives ) they can decide to refuse to perform the ACAT. Apparently they know more than the doctors and nurses who care for the patient.
    Sadly this is just the tip of the iceberg. I know many good people who have volunteered as ambulance, fire brigade, SES, aged care, men’s shed etc, who are quitting because of the ridiculous bureaucracy making their lives miserable, with the ever increasing demands and rules.
    Your health dollar in action, funding useless desk jockeys in their sinecures, with their make work program’s to keep themselves employed.

  22. Roger

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant – shine a light on it, Judith.
    A couple of TV programs would love to run with it, I’m sure. It’s got it all: vulnerable, elderly shut-ins, good at heart volunteers and an incompetent bureaucrat bereft of humanity.
    A tip off to ‘A Current Affair’ is all it would take.

  23. Tel

    If you care enough, find out who was on “some unknown committee” and get the word around. Name the names in private over scones, not in public where they can get back at you.

    You might find information by reading your council minutes (if they are available) or by carefully asking around. This is exactly the sort of issue that will mobilise a lot of votes next election.

  24. MemoryVault

    A new, higher-paid female has taken his place

    Sounds like an affirmative action beneficiary/graduate transferring from Centrelink/Human Services.

  25. Roger

    However some bored genius in the South Australian Heath department thought they knew better, and set up a centralised office. Building, staff, letterhead, logo and mission statement.
    I’m sure a lot of public servants do excellent work and are very conscientious about it too – I have met them in the course of my work. But as instances like this, bushdoc, and the one Judith recounted show, the PS system also seems to be easily manipulated by egotistical empire builders who know how to work it for their good rather than the public’s.

  26. Grigory M

    Any chance of the council being named – and shamed?

    Please Judith do tell. The endarkenment must be exposed.

    Yes please, Judith – do tell. One of these? Maybe Knox Community Transport, where the link doesn’t work.
    Could be worthy of a Dorothy Dixer on Monday’s Q & A.

  27. Grigory M

    Knox Community Transport Volunteers

  28. Gab

    The decent normal majority would find what this higher-paid female did – backed by the dimwits on the council – as abhorrent and a failure. These know-nothing extremists on council are completely out of touch with decent, compassionate, generous Australians.

  29. boy on a bike

    Our Council had about 100 providers of home day care on the books. They looked after about 500 kids and the rates were very good. I think they were about $5.50 per hour per kid (before rebates etc). Council provided a bus so that they got regular day trips, and a toy and book library so that the kids were exposed to a revolving set of books and toys.

    Then a new manager took over. The staff went from being friendly and helpful to not. Some quit. Paperwork increased enormously. Carer numbers plummeted from 100 to 30 in the space of a few months. We suddenly had a day care crisis on our hands, but no one wanted to point the finger at the cause. The problem was described as one of an increase in the supply of babies rather than a sudden drop in the supply of carers.

    Cheap day care is now more. The only providers are now the large centres charging $100+ per day per child – effectively double what it was just 5 years ago.

  30. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Country school, here in the Wild West had an unofficial programme going on, where a couple of the local retirees were helping the children with their reading- listening to their reading and coaching where necessary. There was also a spot of “mentoring” where some of the children had problems.

    Some busy body decided that any volunteers would have to have “working with children” clearances, and thought the volunteers were most unreasonable, when they withdrew their services en masse.

    The local children have just as much trouble with their reading as they ever did.

  31. .

    The government does not like competition. Altruism must be given at the point of a gun, and doled out by someone with a spiffy name plaque and skippy badge.

  32. H B Bear

    This is just another example of (usually poorly executed) government programs displacing existing community, religious and social volunteer organisations.

    It is a theme that Niall Ferguson and Charles Murray return to regularly.

  33. Tintarella di Luna

    Your health dollar in action, funding useless desk jockeys in their sinecures, with their make work program’s to keep themselves employed.

    Rabz-Mantra

  34. johanna

    Here in the Glorious Democratic People’s Republic of the ACT we are very familiar with this mindset.

    There is something about a group of people getting together to help their community that sends them into a frenzy. A few recent examples: a lunatic proposal that was going to require charity sausage sizzles to have at least one person with a certificate in safe food handling there (reluctantly abandoned after public outcry); admonitions to people selling food at school fetes to avoid certain dishes because they could be sued if anyone got food poisoning (no-one ever has); requiring formal permission to hold a street party (widely ignored) – the list goes on.

    In the case that Judith cites, apart from the usual totalitarian overtones, what are the chances that certain interests (e.g. TWU members) regard this sort of thing as undermining their right to a government job? It wouldn’t be the first time.

  35. stackja

    H B Bear
    #1262413, posted on April 12, 2014 at 2:22 pm
    This is just another example of (usually poorly executed) government programs displacing existing community, religious and social volunteer organisations.
    It is a theme that Niall Ferguson and Charles Murray return to regularly.

    MSM have always attacked the non-state sector to enable such displacing.

  36. stackja

    Liberty Quotes
    Nobody but a beggar chuses to depend chiefly upon the benevolence of his fellowcitizens. Even a beggar does not depend upon it entirely. The charity of well-disposed people, indeed, supplies him with the whole fund of his subsistence.
    — Adam Smith

  37. ChrisPer

    It is worth remembering that there have been cases where the situation actually was corrupt, and the dodgy people getting the shaft briefed a tame journalist to publish their attacks against those trying to clean up the situation.

    I particularly remember in 1995 or 1996 the Archaeology Department at UWA, where an out of control junior lecturer with Gay Pride inclinations was booted for bad performance by the far more professional Head of Department and her team (btw not of mainstream inclination either). The Australian gave a double page spread to the underperformer’s story. The University and the maligned head of Department got no such publicity when the investigation exonerated the Department.

    And of course the Michael Smith/Gillard affair.

  38. Senile Old Guy

    Some busy body decided that any volunteers would have to have “working with children” clearances, and thought the volunteers were most unreasonable, when they withdrew their services en masse.

    You will usually find this is a requirement under state/territory law. For the NT see here. It’s not a “busy body”; they have no choice.

  39. Steve of Glasshouse

    Queensland floods..volunteer, donate , watch donations get swallowed up by a gordian committee, then cop flood tax. I will NEVER again donate anything to any fund that has the word ” Premier ” in it

  40. Tom

    Roger
    #1262389, posted on April 12, 2014 at 2:00 pm

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant – shine a light on it, Judith.
    A couple of TV programs would love to run with it, I’m sure. It’s got it all: vulnerable, elderly shut-ins, good at heart volunteers and an incompetent bureaucrat bereft of humanity.
    A tip off to ‘A Current Affair’ is all it would take.

    Excellent suggestion!

    Your post is pointless, Judith, if it remains just another crowd grizzle against an anonymous injustice.

  41. Boambee John

    “They keep it very quiet, but the rate of bullying in the p/s would easily outstrip any other business division.”

    Check the stress leave statistics (albeit they will include an element of grifting).

  42. davey street

    Our local council has just been told their pick-up/drive to service for elderly at-home which had been trial funded from Canberra, has had funding withdrawn and council is now contemplating a service funded by ratepayers. It’s amazing these volunteer groups continue operating as they can now get into legal trouble if something goes wrong. Professional carer staff working in the massive and increasing in size aged care sector doing in-home services on an hourly rate of pay through an agency, must do a three month intensive TAFE course and regular updates, two weeks in the field training, a first aid course and updates, and a police check every two years, all at the carer’s expense. They are not allowed to even hand to clients their pharmacy drugs pre-loaded into a seven day plastic flip top box. They ARE allowed to open webster packs from pharmacies but if the client won’t take the drugs, the carer must call their agency who calls the client’s significant other or a doctor or ambulance. Vet affairs will not allow these qualified people to prepare a simple meal for clients at home. They must arrange Meals on Wheels etc. Payment of money from clients direct to professional carers is strictly forbidden by agencies. Motor vehicle insurance on private vehicles used for transporting is a grey area in the event of an accident with clients in the car for those qualified carers being paid mileage allowances, so I’m not sure how the guy arranging the carpool would go in the event of an accident in a state government or council owned car, given money is changing hands. With pro carers, under no circumstances can any other party do the driving (while the carer is, say, in the back with the client who may have dementia) apart from drivers of registered taxis and the like. I would imagine the payment of any money at all requires a commercial insurance premium be paid on the vehicle for professional carers and volunteers which is much higher than normal. There are stacks of other rules and regs. The real villain in all this is our own litigeous society, that is lawyers who will sue anyone at the drop of a hat these days. All sorts of entities have to protect themselves so their insurance remains valid which is a worsening bureaucratic red tape situation.

  43. Kingsley

    Bushdoc. Yet we are told over and over again health budgets are inexorably increasing and nothing can be done about bar raising taxes to pay for these vitally necessary expenditures

    We need the stats on how many health bureaucrats we had per doctors and nurses 50 years ago versus now published over and over again

  44. stackja

    Kingsley
    #1262476, posted on April 12, 2014 at 3:35 pm
    Bushdoc. Yet we are told over and over again health budgets are inexorably increasing and nothing can be done about bar raising taxes to pay for these vitally necessary expenditures
    We need the stats on how many health bureaucrats we had per doctors and nurses 50 years ago versus now published over and over again

    As I remember there were about equal numbers. Then ALP came and created too many health bureaucrats.

  45. Anon

    Rule number one with volunteers – do not treat them like employees. They do not like it.

  46. Paul

    What’s the bet she’s a Professor in Nursing from one of the Unis that was until recent years a College.

  47. Boambee John

    “But as instances like this, bushdoc, and the one Judith recounted show, the PS system also seems to be easily manipulated by egotistical empire builders who know how to work it for their good rather than the public’s.”

    Back in the PS Department in which I spent my working life, we had a bureaucrat generally known as “Clive of India – the greatest empire builder of all time”.

    After he moved to another department (on promotion, of course), it took years to unwind his empire back to a small branch.

  48. Badjack

    I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the “new manager” has a HR background. Whatever those people touch they screw up.
    Judith should research mentoring as it used to be, compared with HR ’s method of mentoring. She will find they (HR) don’t have any idea on how it operates.

  49. Dave Wane

    Commonsense is of course increasingly uncommon, but when it comes to bureaucrats, it is almost non-existent. This kind of nonsense happens way too often.

  50. Ellen of Tasmania

    ACAT is an acronym for aged care assessment team.

    I remember my mum having an ACAT assessment when she was living with us. My mum wanted my hubby there with her (she had Alzheimer’s) so he sat in on the proceedings. My husband saw the lady off, who thought that mum had done really well, until hubby pointed out that virtually none of the answers were correct. The lady seemed so surprised because mum had answered quickly and confidently. Just made it all up on the spot – she had spunk even if she didn’t have memory. The ‘assessment’ would have been worthless if she’d been on her own.

  51. Notafan

    Sorry but all this council arranged and government pay paid for assistance gets on my nerves, elder care is a bottomless pit and the first port of call should be family family family and I don’t care if interferes with someone’s other commitments.
    The cash thing is tedious but much better than accusations of you took $50 not $10 etc

  52. johanna

    They’ll be hitting carpooling next. You know, cash changing hands informally (they hate that with a passion), the possibility of “inappropriate relationships” developing, tricky questions about liability and workers comp. if there is an accident.

    Oh wait, carpooling is politically correct. I withdraw the above.

  53. thefrollickingmole

    My business tried to volunteer a schools breakfast program rather than the existing arrangement of kids being fed cereal 3 times a week in an empty art room.

    A hot breakfast, in a health approved kitchen, school were keen and we had a group of people willing to help, including a bus and people to supervise the kids.

    Then the council got involved and it will never happen. Never mind the positive outcome all round with no possible downside, some bits didnt “comply”.
    Australian standards and compliance are the death of any voluntary group.
    They would rather do harm then assist.

    You will not find one council chairwarmer who will agree to anything unless it “complies”.

  54. Menai Pete

    Our local (volunteer) community service organisation was “reorganised” recently, ostensibly because of the introduction of the NDIS … long serving staff were sacked and new bureaucrats appointed. Volunteers were directed that they were no longer to hug their elderly clients or refer to them in endearing terms, the only exception being those with dementia.

  55. Potential victim

    I help run a computer training program at a sports club which receives some government funding for the program. Several years ago I was required to undergo a police check for ‘Working with Seniors’, which I apparently passed, as no came to take me away. Recently I was advised that I needed to undergo another police check as they only last 3 years. Fair enough, you say. Well not quite. You see, in the intervening years I have become … a senior, and now I work with all these other seniors who have not had police checks; the horrors which await me? By the way I enjoy sport with many of the same people, but apparently the government is prepared to sacrifice them.
    In a similar vein, I have for many year held a Disabled Parking Permit (even though my disability does not disable me). To get the permit it must be certified by a doctor, every 3 years, that I have a PERMANENT condition.

  56. Sir Fred Lenin

    I recall years ago ,the local hospital where I lived in a country town ,which was also a rural centre, the Admin was a secretary ,two full time office staff and a part timer.the secretary retired and a new one was appointed,he had an MBA (master of bugger all) ,within a few years the admin staff nearly outnumbered the doctors and nurses! A fund was started to build a bigger admin centre,I was at a function speaking to two doctors and the director of nursing (formerly Matron) the CEO as he named himself arrived,I Insulted him bt saying ” you should get rid of the patients ,bloody taking up all the potential office space,then you could sack the medical staffand employ more office staff Napoleon” the doctors and Matron laughed and totally agreed with me. Bullshit paperwork from the hospital ,to two health departments ,state and federal ,the federal one has not one hospital or clinic. It only eists so a politician can get motpre money as a minister!

  57. entropy

    As I remember there were about equal numbers. Then ALP came and created too many health bureaucrats.

    Does anyone know what value add Medicare Local does, or is just another place/ Rudd brain fart that only serves as a platform for the sisterhood aka nursing mafia aka health bureaucrats to spread their malign influence?

    I hve had a few meeting recently where they have been involved and it would have been more productive, certainly shorter, without them.

  58. johanna

    Volunteers were directed that they were no longer to hug their elderly clients or refer to them in endearing terms, the only exception being those with dementia.

    Great, so only the most vulnerable are left open to the sickos?

    That is the weird world these people live in. Making friends with people is banned, unless they are incapable of protecting their own interests.

    As an aside, my grandma (who lived and died in Europe) left her small estate to a family friend who looked after her for the last few years of her life. She died at 89, and needed a lot of care in those last years. We weren’t there to do it.

    As far as I am concerned, grandma did the right thing. I got a piece of not very valuable jewellery, and other family members got similar things. But the cash (which was not much) went to the woman who went to her house every day, made sure she ate, tidied the joint up and so on. Fine by us.

    Of course, there are cases where exploitation occurs, and there are mechanisms to deal with them. But the presumption that no acts of kindness can be allowed to occur, just in case, is the Precautionary Principle gone mad.

  59. Tel

    Great, so only the most vulnerable are left open to the sickos?

    Only those who can’t give credible evidence.

  60. Rococo Liberal

    As my mother has always said: sense is never common, it is frightfully upper class.

  61. .

    Hmm. Of course. Which is why royal families are basically inbred.

  62. Grigory M

    Hmm. Of course. Which is why royal families are basically inbred.

    What’s your excuse, Dotty? You a Tasmaniac?

  63. Aussieute

    Red bloody tape madness
    Time people told these barons to go further down the paddock and do it anyway.
    Time to tough it out … “So sue us” … raise the angst and put it out for the whole community to shame those bureaucrats .

    Farmer becomes lawyer to defend property rights

    A New South Wales farmer has commenced a law degree after fighting a legal battle in court to defend her property rights:

    Nyngan mixed farmer Gabrielle Holmes, decided to study law after a case against her in the Land and Environment Court a decade ago was deemed invalid.

    “With the way the legislation is written and interpreted it, was very hard when we were going through the court to find a lawyer who had knowledge of the farming practices and the law, and the two were sometimes in conflict,” she says.

    More strength to her arm. But what a poor reflection on NSW’s native vegetation regime that it takes a law degree to defend one’s own property rights.

    This raises a very important issue about the rule of law.
    When legal regimes become so complex that only legal experts can understand them, how can the maxim ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ possibly apply?

    A USA Focus on something similar

    In a hard-fought and stunning victory for family farmers and property rights throughout the Commonwealth, Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) ON March 5 signed into law legislation solidifying Virginia’s status as a right-to-farm state by limiting local officials’ ability to interfere with normal agricultural operations.

    The governor’s signature marks the latest chapter in a swirling controversy that attracted nationwide attention in 2012 when the bonetaFauquier County Board of Supervisors forced family farmer Martha Boneta to cease selling produce from her own 64-acre farm. No longer allowed to sell the vegetables she had harvested, Boneta donated the food to local charities lest it go to waste.

    Fauquier County officials threatened Boneta with $5,000 per-day fines for hosting a birthday party for eight 10-year-old girls without a permit, and advertising pumpkin carvings. Seeing in the county’s action against Boneta as a brazen effort to drive her off her land, Virginians from all walks of life rallied to her defense. Supporters gathered in Warrenton, the county seat, for a peaceful “pitchfork protest” to vent their anger over what an out-of-control local government had done to a law-abiding citizen.

    Passage of the Boneta Bill was all the more remarkable, because it was entirely a grassroots effort. Supporters of the legislation, none of whom received any compensation for the time and effort they devoted to the cause, flooded the state capitol in Richmond with emails, phone calls, and personal visits with lawmakers to ensure enactment of the legislation.

    By contrast, opponents of the bill, including well-funded environmental organizations and power-hungry county governments – both determined to preserve strict land-use controls – reportedly employed lobbyists to kill the bill. In the end, highly motivated citizens triumphed over highly paid lobbyists.

    And the Greens were involved in this
    Needing to get some blithering idiot to let you have kids party

  64. ar

    A new, higher-paid female has taken his place

    Obviously she has to do something to earn all that extra dough. Start cracking down, lady!

  65. Walter Plinge

    On 23 March 1990 Bryce Courtney had an op-ed published in the Australia titled “Nobody Values Acts of Charity”. I kept it because it is true. Never do anything for nothing and never volunteer. It will end in tears as the experiences described above bear out. As the late Bryce concluded,

    Take my advice. Don’t do anything for free or volunteer and an idea too quickly or give away anything for nothing. Not even to charity.

    In my experience it’s not a good thing to donate to charity either. My mother died three years ago and her local Uniting Church and the minister wouldn’t accept payment for the use of the church for her memorial service. That was lovely. So my two siblings and I decided we’d donate the worth of the service to charities of our choice. I donated to Wesley Central Mission. Big mistake. I have been regularly pestered by mail by Wesley, the Salvos, Save the Children, &c., ever since. That’s the last donation anyone gets from me. Well, I do give to door knockers but at least they don’t have your personal details.

  66. Tintarella di Luna

    Sorry but all this council arranged and government pay paid for assistance gets on my nerves, elder care is a bottomless pit and the first port of call should be family family family and I don’t care if interferes with someone’s other commitments.
    The cash thing is tedious but much better than accusations of you took $50 not $10 etc

    I agree absolutely. When pregnant with my first child my mum had to have open heart surgery. I left work to care for her, but never ever regarded my self as her carer, I was her daughter doing a filial duty and repaying my mother for raising me and putting up with my energetic enthusiasms. She was still living with me and my wonderful Sunbather when our baby arrived, my sister had a young toddler for whom I was also caring, between my mum and I we’d look after the infant and toddler and prepare a meal for my sister to take home with her after work. It was all a wonderful familial enterprise. John Howard was right when he said that the family and extended family is a self-contained welfare system, that always seemed to work until government thought it could help.

  67. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    it’s not a good thing to donate to charity either.

    Totally disagree – I donate to Legacy, and Totally and Permanently Incapacitated Ex Serviceman’s Association (largely on the basis of there, but for the grace of God, goes me) and have never had any pestering by mail, but always, a polite acknowledgement of donations.

  68. johanna

    Indeed, Walter, I foolishly donated to The Smith Family some years ago. It seems that they all exchange mailing lists, and I have been getting phone calls and junk mail ever since. Interestingly, The Smith Family desisted when I asked them to. But the rest never stop pestering me for money.

  69. Tel

    Never do anything for nothing and never volunteer. It will end in tears as the experiences described above bear out.

    As they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

    I think the point is, volunteers can quit at any time, so if the brass start to piss you off, find somewhere else to spend your time, after explaining to all the people you deal with, exactly why you are moving on. While you enjoy volunteering you are getting something out of it so keep going.

  70. The month they closed down my Clinic, (due to lack of funds) the organisation was able to put on a Senior Tobacco Worker – F/T; Tobacco Worker – Cessation Program – Part Time; and a Trainee Tobacco Worker.
    And this rot is all the way through the Public Health System.

  71. RodClarke

    Take my advice. Don’t do anything for free or volunteer and an idea too quickly or give away anything for nothing. Not even to charity.

    What a terrible view of the world!

    I operate on the principle that god lets me work on a 95% commission.

  72. johanna

    Interesting point, Rod. What do others think?

  73. dan

    Sorry but all this council arranged and government pay paid for assistance gets on my nerves, elder care is a bottomless pit and the first port of call should be family family family and I don’t care if interferes with someone’s other commitments.The cash thing is tedious but much better than accusations of you took $50 not $10 etc

    Probably true, actually the first thing I thought after reading this article was that if it is a volunteer service why is anyone being paid, and if it’s just people taking others for a drive why is any official body involved? If I ever needed to do a favour for my elderly neighbours I just did it…we have a couple of acquaintances who help out my grandmother when they can.

    On 23 March 1990 Bryce Courtney had an op-ed published in the Australia titled “Nobody Values Acts of Charity”. I kept it because it is true. Never do anything for nothing and never volunteer. It will end in tears as the experiences described above bear out.

    Now that is A-grade bullshit. I know people whose lives have been saved because of charitable organisations my family have been involved with. I have done pro bono work abroad that has taken disfigured children with no future and allowed them to play a normal part in their community. Why wouldn’t you do that? Is life just a competition to make more money or sit on your arse watching TV the longest?

    I support two charities financially and the only calls I get are to invite me to visit the children when they have their annual concerts and prize giving, or to update me on progress. The key is supporting a limited number of causes and having a personal connection to the outcome.

    Giving five bucks to some do-gooder multinational organisation for vague purposes god knows where, with massive overheads that then keeps your demographics and contact details forever is just stupid. My causes are just altruistic arms of organisations that provide services and which have a single philanthropy employee who runs outreach programs on the side.

  74. Shelley

    Urrrghh. This sort of crap just totally frustrates me. It is just getting worse. ‘Higher paid’ – mmm love to know how much this woman gets to essentially screw a much needed and well run/organised community scheme into the ground. You can just hear the justification can’t you – as they say in the UK ‘all for elf and safety’.

  75. Rob MW

    “And, lo and behold, a far swag of the volunteers have now quit, annoyed at the arrogance and stupidity of the new manager and the new rules.”

    Elitism precipitates arrogance as a birthright, yet, stupidity and ignorance is an education failure.

    In Australia the birthright appears to be far more important than education, that’s why Australia, all of our 22 million population, (but less than some major foreign cities) have the highest paid and (ABC) revered elites in the world.

  76. Robert O.

    Reminds me of the classic Yes Minister episode on hospitals.

  77. .

    Grigory M
    #1262584, posted on April 12, 2014 at 6:02 pm
    Hmm. Of course. Which is why royal families are basically inbred.

    What’s your excuse, Dotty? You a Tasmaniac?

    Lulz…a monarchist gets offended by pointing this fact out and starts calling normal people inbred…

  78. .

    A New South Wales farmer has commenced a law degree after fighting a legal battle in court to defend her property rights:

    Nyngan mixed farmer Gabrielle Holmes, decided to study law after a case against her in the Land and Environment Court a decade ago was deemed invalid.

    Well done girl.

    ( No doubt the brain dead slob Grigory M will say something poisonous and dumb about her because he has some bizarre score to settle with me.

    What is it Grigory? You don’t like being dickless?)

  79. Token

    This is exactly what my mother experienced at the Red Cross after Tickner took over.

    She actually used to fish out all the dirty old dolls which could be cleaned & re-sold, scrubbed them clean, hand knitted new clothes with wool out of her pocket, then took the lot to the local “gardners market’ type fairs and sold them with ALL funds going to Red Cross to help refugees (there were a large number from Kosovo which needed to be looked after including English lessons).

    The old management was so thrilled about the bonus cash they did everything to help her.

    Then Tickner’s Full Time mafia took over and put every possible barrier in the way of my mother and other similar schemes. Within a year most of the volunteers left leaving the surly full timers who were always angry about how “low paid” they were.

  80. .

    Token
    #1262827, posted on April 12, 2014 at 10:16 pm
    This is exactly what my mother experienced at the Red Cross after Tickner took over.

    Another ALP dreg that set out to rape the graven image of the working class to win elections so it can shit on the middle class as a non-productive, fully paid up upper class toff.

  81. Grigory M

    a monarchist gets offended by pointing this fact out and starts calling normal people inbred…

    WTF are you rambling on about Dotty? You now think you’re a monarchist? FFS – you’re definitely not ‘normal’ – not with the crap you go on about. Dunno about that ‘inbred’ bit, though – ’twas you that said that about someone else at 5.59 this arvo. Someone a while ago suggested you might be a farmer – that’s as may be – but if you are, you’re definitely not a smart one like the lady from Nyngan.

  82. .

    You’re Septimus’ mate – no wonder you’re a fuckwit. You’re now trolling by simply not making sense and saying contrarian crap like a child.

  83. Jim from qld

    Is this STAR transport in the Redlands shire Qld?

    I used to volunteer drive for them and it was run perfectly by volunteers until the government funding mandated a paid manager, who hired his wife for admin and antagonised the volunteers?

    Typical government, if it ain’t broke, stimulate it!

  84. Professional carer staff working in the massive and increasing in size aged care sector doing in-home services on an hourly rate of pay through an agency, must do a three month intensive TAFE course and regular updates, two weeks in the field training, a first aid course and updates, and a police check every two years, all at the carer’s expense. They are not allowed to even hand to clients their pharmacy drugs pre-loaded into a seven day plastic flip top box. They ARE allowed to open webster packs from pharmacies but if the client won’t take the drugs, the carer must call their agency who calls the client’s significant other or a doctor or ambulance.

    This is partly to protect care workers from lazy (ex-)nurses acting as ‘clinical coordinators’, who refuse to do such lowly jobs as handling medications for clients. Care workers have been asked to change dressings and give insulin as well, WITH NO TRAINING, due to these frightful nurses, who have gone into aged care because they are lazy and incompetent.

    The solution would be to put a cracker under the nurses, but you can’t do that, because you’ll have the ANF on your back immediately. It’s the one truly representative union that still exists in Australia.

    Vet affairs will not allow these qualified people to prepare a simple meal for clients at home.

    Vet affairs is a whole nother mess.

    Payment of money from clients direct to professional carers is strictly forbidden by agencies.

    This is to protect clients from being robbed and carers from being falsely accused of theft. It can’t actually work any other way in the current system. If you want to go private, it’s easier but there are fewer safeguards. Caveat emptor.

    The real villain in all this is our own litigeous society, that is lawyers who will sue anyone at the drop of a hat these days. All sorts of entities have to protect themselves so their insurance remains valid which is a worsening bureaucratic red tape situation.

    It’s due to the fact that taxpayers’ money is going to fund HACC and EACH etc packages. If you took out the taxpayers’ money, and made the whole aged care business private, it would be down to individual facilities to charge what they liked and provide the services they liked or could afford to provide.

    It would also be down to the families and carers of the frail aged to go into these facilities and make sure that their old ones were being cared for in a way they found acceptable. And then removing them if it wasn’t what they wanted.

    Any takers?

    THIS is the real villain in all this – families who can’t or won’t care for their frail aged, because they have two mortages and an SUV and two kids in private school and are divorced and only have one leg, etc, “and anyway Mum and I never got on, and I don’t see why Barry can’t do more, because he was always her favourite, and why I should have to spend years caring for someone who doesn’t even know my name any more?”

  85. Grigory M

    You’re Septimus’ mate

    Ah ha ha ha – ROTFLMAO at that Dot. A little while back, someone else suggested I might be JC. That was fucking funny too – but I doubt he thought so. And there you go again with the ‘troll’ bullshit, Dot – the last recourse of the coward who can’t back up what he says.

  86. Notafan

    Yes Philippa, I have one aged relative who accuses me of shortchanging, giving incorrect info and other irritating little habits but you gotta suck it up.
    It’s the pension, the medical and all the ancillary services which will keep those government hands in our pockets.

  87. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Family is the answer for informal and unsupervised help. If you haven’t got any real family, it’s not too hard to develop some substitutes; a variety of friendship. And locality; check out your street for a smile and a chat. No-one’s yet found a way to ‘professionalise’ that.

  88. srr

    “Have you got a 27B-6?”

    because it seems we all live in ‘BRAZIL’ now -

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eosrujtjJHA

  89. Somerville

    This is NDIS on a small scale.

  90. srr

    Your post is pointless, Judith,…

    …unless it is intended to spread the, “you can’t beat ‘em, you must join ‘em”, mentality.

    When our Pony Club caved to the, ‘you only get what you pay for’, ‘free’ Marketeers* back in the early ’70′s, and employed a dressage instructor to do badly, what an army of volunteers did well, many started warning of what some are only starting to complain of now.

    *Socialist/Communist Racketeers; using their enemy’s personal pride and greed, to break down social health and civic service…and seed armies of traitors willing to sell out their own for ‘market’ price.

  91. Anne

    The other day I saw a man struggling to hold two shopping bags and leaning on a bus stop sign. I turned the car around and asked him if I could drive him home.

    He was a Polish immigrant, 92 years old and widowed six years. He had spent five years in a concentration camp.

    When we got to his house he insisted I come in for coffee. I intend to call by again this week to take him to the supermarket. It’s such a small thing for me and such a big deal for him.

    I hope the Government doesn’t find out.

  92. .

    Grigory M
    #1262875, posted on April 12, 2014 at 10:59 pm
    You’re Septimus’ mate

    Ah ha ha ha – ROTFLMAO at that Dot. A little while back, someone else suggested I might be JC. That was fucking funny too – but I doubt he thought so. And there you go again with the ‘troll’ bullshit, Dot – the last recourse of the coward who can’t back up what he says.

    How am I a coward…?

    Anyway, I backed up what I said on the other thread with multiple sources of evidence. You know, the one where you defended local governments taking developer contributions where developers already built the infrastructure themselves. You and perennial dickhead Steve C cut and ran when the evidence was produced to the point where your interference running for such government greed and nit picking could no longer be credibly asserted.

    Suck it up, keyboard Princess.

  93. Dianeh

    Mum used to be part of a community scheme to drive people (young and old) to the regional hospital for dialysis. She did it two days a week, the morning run. She took three people each time. Most we’re already friends of hers but she mad some new friends. These people need to make it to these appointments on time without fail. They cannot rely on good will of family and friends. The peace of mind they get from not having worry about transport thrice a week cannot be underestimated. Many mornings, one or other of the passengers would ring Mum and say that a family member was taking them. Most had caring families who would take them but the passengers hated to be a burden. Mum said they also enjoyed the talking and friendship that accompanied the trip.

    Medicare Local. I am in two minds about it. If the bureaucracy of the health depts was not so great there would be no need for it. I have found it valuable in advice concerning services and funding for my autistic child. They helped me when a bureaucrat in the Ed dept wanted my son’s diagnosis redone, with advice and a very scathing letter from the local paediatrician which embarrassed the bureaucrat. Also to find out how to access dementia services and the support group. I’m not sure why Medicare Local was created by the Fed govt and not by the state govt as a health advisory service. Part of a federal takeover of health maybe.

  94. Robert O.

    There are many experienced older folk who could help in many fields as volunteers, but are put off by the red tape, police checks, insurances etc. Australia should be using its expertise to the utmost, but with a combination of the tall poppy syndrome, bias of the main media and the political imperative it doesn’t and that it is pity as it allows mediocracy to thrive.

  95. .

    Ignoring the trolling and interference I have encountered:

    1. The government does not like competition. Leftists find compassion not extracted at gunpoint to be perverted.

    2. Sense is not by definition upper class as R.L. notes, as all royal families are literally inbred.

  96. Bill Shut

    A new, higher-paid female has taken his place… bet she has a “short back and sides” (haircut for the young ones)

  97. Local Councils are becoming repositories (suppositories?) of Green Activists. Anyone noticed that councils are all heading toward the bureaucratic model of controlling us and society?
    Think a little better and Google the persons putting in for positions at your next Council election. You’d be surprised at how many have Green Attachments.

  98. srr

    Yep, the death of the local, volunteer manned, working-bees,

    allows mediocracy to thrive.

    People who donated their own time, money, equipment, materials, expertise etc., to build and maintain Scout Halls, Footy Grounds etc., didn’t need the threat of bring sued, to do a better than good job; they had the right to proudly admit, They DID Build That!

    And there was no shortage of expert tradesmen turning out to gift their communities of their expertise, when the women were equally proud to do their bit, feeding the working men well.

    And as for caring for the very young, very old and most vulnerable; all that endless red tape and police checks has done, is exclude those you could trust to beat the shitter out of abusers of those who can’t defend themselves. It’s excluded from respected society, those who carved in stone, understanding of The Law of Doing Justice.

  99. Anne

    Local Councils are becoming repositories (suppositories?) of Green Activists. Anyone noticed that councils are all heading toward the bureaucratic model of controlling us and society?
    Think a little better and Google the persons putting in for positions at your next Council election. You’d be surprised at how many have Green Attachments.

    Spot on Winston. It’s insidious and dangerous. Little by little, regulation by regulation they are taking away our freedom and dominion over our own property.

    The Mannigham council has just stopped a State Government move to allow acre properties in Templestowe to be divided to a .2 hectares. They’ve made this decision without consultation with or consideration of the cost to the stakeholders.

    Hundreds of millions of dollars could be liberated from nothing, not to mention the building that would follow.

    Their rationale – trees of course but also an increase in “…sewage, storm water, infrastructure and traffic…”

    It’s bewildering.

    Meanwhile two streets away a brick house is being bulldozed to erect four town houses.

  100. RodClarke

    All good points Philippa Martyr

    If you want to go private, it’s easier but there are fewer safeguards. Caveat emptor.

    The magic of the private system is that the more people involved the safer it becomes . If any organisation relies on only one volunteer you are stuffed if he turns out to be a thief. But if there are 10 volunteers involved the nefarious have much less scope for evil and much greater chance of getting caught and suffering the consequences.

    Another example. I an not a fan of reverse mortgages for the elderly. But I recognise that if only one company provides them the elderly will get ripped off. If 10 companies provide them the magic of market competition will drive better outcomes for consumers.

  101. Combine_Dave

    1. The government does not like competition. Leftists find compassion not extracted at gunpoint to be perverted.

    As evidenced by this article, recent decisions of the ACCC and opposition to our new FTAs and suggestions to remove restrictions on foreign investment.

    Markets, society and people in general are not easily understood nor regulated.

  102. john constantine

    i do note that the friends of my family’s activist are joining service clubs. I deluded myself into thinking this was out of the goodness of their hearts,but then i learned that they are being instructed to occupy service clubs,and take office from the tired and worn out old timers.

    rotary and lions are not becoming the voices of socialism by accident.

  103. Anne

    John, the same thing has happened at Kew Golf Club.

  104. Jazza

    I’ve experienced some council backed useful similar services in a western Victorian city,not just volunteer transport but also home help to keep oldies in their homes–but inevitably, a change of management seems to bring the smoothest operations undone.
    It did with the home services a few years ago.

    As a client, I tried to inform the new (female,too) manager of disastrous changes that took away the benefits to needy customers,but the new manager was certainly the opposite of all ears.

    Basically, I found that to institute a paradigm of PC, frequent staff meetings, enforced extra paperwork amongst multiple changes, meant that the units focussed no longer on being of SERVICE and the poor clients were the losers, with multiple mixups and errors , having no union to make biannual agreements like paid staff who stayed on regardless.

    I have no doubt this sort of volunteer service will henceforth struggle to continue in any useful form, but the “manager” will likely be promoted to do more damage somewhere else in the local government system,blithely ignoring that to serve people rather than arrange paperwork and head up meetings, one needs to put the people’s NEEDS first.
    Sometimes this means if something is working, leave it the hell alone and give out some praise occasionally to those who are doing the good work!

  105. john constantine

    i have contributed to end of life palliative care for several people,some under the roof.

    over a period of time ,technology has helped.medicine has hit a wall, ten times the spend might give a one percent improvement.

    the frail elderly that needed help to transfer, twist, wipe and pick up off the floor, have had their ranks joined by the 100 kilo plus requiring assistance. This does mean a whole new lifting and moving flowchart,but ………………does the one devised now have to be so soulless?.

    the explosive increase in spending requirements embedded in the new management flowcharts will be the landmine for the tories that the lefties improvised into the ndis roadside bomb.

    career paths in the ndis that pay better for socialists, giving more money for officework inflicting crap than the people that deal with explosive bowel movements get–wrong way,go back.

    volunteers bad, no easy crony career path through volunteer services.too hard to control. would you believe that the cronies that provide leftie awareness training courses find it hard to get volunteers to do their “castro was right” course content?.

    the leftie occupy theory calls for a massive unionised structure,with massively well paid cronies at the top, for everything. the ndis is just one more excuse to indulge,it could just as easily been a massive communications monopoly, or desalinisation plants, or a national heavy vehicle regulator, or………….

  106. johanna

    Still, the good news is, people keep doing good stuff, and if totalitarian bureaucrats and politicians make an issue of it, they get ridiculed. The absurd ACT Government proposal about sausage sizzles that I mentioned above is an example. In the end, they had to back down thanks to a mixture of hoots of laughter and an angry backlash.

    It also addressed the structural issue, in the sense that a lot of people who were not interested in politics began to realise that these control-freaks were a serious issue that needed to be dealt with.

    So, call them out, at every opportunity. There is a huge amount of community support for telling them to mind their beeswax. So far, the minorities have monopolised lobbying – time to fight back.

  107. politichix

    A new, higher-paid female has taken his place and insisted that:

    Don’t mean to be a gender nazi but can I just note that imbeciles are not only of the female persuasion. Perhaps better phrased as “a new, higher-paid bureaucrat has taken his place and insisted that:”

  108. Grigory M

    How am I a coward…?

    Poor old Dot – how are you not? You put crap out on the threads and when someone calls you on it, or asks for you to cite some support, you cry ‘troll’ (or sometimes call someone a ‘lying liar who lies’). A piss-weak cry-baby is what you are, Dot. Like a little kid ‘dobbing’ someone because things aren’t going your way.

    And, yeah, fuckwit – I recall the garbage you put up on that other thread. Not one proper citation from you when politely asked – just told me to ‘fuck off’, which led to an exchange that made others unhappy. As I recall, it ended with you just dribbling out more of your mumbo-jumbo non-citations.

    I apologise to all farmers for mentioning Septic’s reference to you as one. He was probably wrong to say it and I shouldn’t have reminded them. You just aren’t in their class.

  109. Des Deskperson

    On bullying in the public sector: for what it’s worth , in a survey of the Australian Public Service in 2103, employees were asked whether, during the last 12 months they had been subject to harassment or bullying in their workplace. 16% of respondents, or around 1 in 6, replied that they had.

    It’s difficult to know what these figures mean. There seems to be little useful comparative data on other sectors and while reported levels of bullying appear seem to be about the same in some state public sectors, the widely differing roles, responsibilities and types of work between state and federal sectors, as well as between states themselves. makes comparison tricky. How much of the perceived bullying is reported by people who are actually incompetent and/or can’t take direction is also problematical.

    My own observation is that the nature of work in the public sector does encourage bullying because individual performance, at least in the short term, is often difficult to measure and this makes it relatively easy for a psycho-manager to find or invent reasons to push people around.

  110. Combine_Dave

    My own observation is that the nature of work in the public sector does encourage bullying because individual performance, at least in the short term, is often difficult to measure and this makes it relatively easy for a psycho-manager to find or invent reasons to push people around.

    Performance management (even basic KPIs are missing) is something done poorly in Gov.

    As for government managers, ‘a fish always rots from the head.’

  111. Hasbeen

    My mother had an ACAT assessment after a partial hip replacement at 95, left her restricted in what she could do.

    She had a granny flat adjacent to my home, but was, & wanted to remain independent. Some very nice young ladies, from the hospital that supplied the operation did the assessment, & recommended some modifications to the granny flat.

    In home personal hygiene & some cleaning help was arranged 3 mornings a week, which was brilliant. They also arranged for a government supplied walker & hospital style bedside table to be supplied. They said they had labeled the order as urgent, but this may take a while. It did. She needed them now, so I bought them.

    Nine months later, after a fall, she had to go into a nursing home, & 3 months later she passed away. Imagine my surprise when almost 4 months later the walker & table were delivered by courier.

    I wonder what some bureaucrats thought we would have used for 16 months.

    Still they were not really wasted. The community based nursing home were very grateful when I dropped them in.

  112. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    can I just note that imbeciles are not only of the female persuasion.

    And ain’t that the truth, Politichix.

    However, I like to identify in given cases whether it is a man or woman in the action. Credit or scorn, as appropriate, comes where it is due then, and we should at least be able to state whether we think that gender may have been an issue in the case in point. Otherwise, gender becomes as many would have it, ‘irrelevant’. Which is to beg the question, as it is often not irrelevant at all. Let adults make up their own minds and have their own speculations. Other will jump in and say so if they consider commenters are wrong, or stereotyping.

  113. .

    So Grigory you are a liar. I produced evidence you didn’t like. You stopped replying when the evidence turned out to contradict your pro government trolling.

    The evidence is there for all to see. Strange that you have a “time limit” for references on a thread, but are willing to bring up your moronic perception that no evidence was produced, weeks later.

    Get bent.

  114. Grigory M

    Dotty – FFS – you’re just dribbling out more of your mumbo-jumbo. You are a citation-free zone, you piss-weak cry-baby.

  115. .

    The citations are there and you don’t like it. To wit:

    Council is under no obligation to accept works-in-kind or material public benefit offers

    carrying out of “Works In Kind” (WIK) or
    “Material Public Benefits” (MPB), in lieu of the payment of development
    contributions. Acceptance of such offers is at Council’s discretion.

    Whereas you are running your mouth off like a little Princess, and insisting that you are not a troll.

  116. Grigory M

    Council is under no obligation

    Ho fucking hum, Dotty. Standard “out” clause – evidence of nothing. Just more gibberish from you.

    And you’ve bleated “troll” again, cry-baby. I see that you trolled my comment on the Open thread – how ironic.

  117. .

    It is legal permission to take a fee/charge from private operators for public construction where private construction has already made provision for such services which the public construction would be made to serve.

    Which is precisely what I asserted.

    If it is a standard clause, it is widespread.

    Which is precisely what you denied.

    You are incorrect, and have carried on like an idiot based on the presumption you were correct.

  118. Tintarella di Luna

    16% of respondents, or around 1 in 6, replied that they had.

    At a guess it means 16% were asked to do their job and felt harassed at being so asked. A friend related an experience. She had occasion to ring the Australian Human Rights Commission on a matter and discussed the matter with the lady on reception who after a little banter, said to my friend that she was abusing her. My friend asked on what grounds did she claim she was being abused and was told it was “because you disagree with me”. – I’m sure that person is one of the 16%. It is an asylum for the incompetent and the uncomprehending.

  119. Grigory M

    Fuck, Dotty – you are a tiresome prick. Still just spouting meaningless crap – still haven’t substantiated anything you’ve said.

    Council is under no obligation

    Acceptance of such offers is at Council’s discretion

    Standard “out” clauses – evidence of nothing – legal permission for nothing. FFS, I hope you’re not actually providing advice to anyone in the real world.

  120. .

    Those “standard out clauses” which you are so aware of, prove my point precisely, which you disputed so vigorously and made an effort to make a prick of yourself on other threads over.

    It is hilarious you say the clauses are “standard” but are “unsubstantiated” at the same time.

    Local councils double charge on infrastructure by taking fees to develop hypothetical public infrastructure the private sector has already built.

    This has been proven beyond any doubt.

  121. Grigory M

    Dotty – you are a dumb fuckwit. You don’t even make sense. WTF are you talking about now?

  122. .

    You really are trolling.

    I provided two explicit references in the old thread, with plenty of more that supported them indirectly.

    Now rather than admit you were wrong, and that local governments double dip, you are saying the clauses are “standard” but also have “no legal effect” (which is utter nonsense) yet you’re worried I’m giving someone advice.

    You then assert I’m not making any sense.

  123. Grigory M

    I’m not making any sense

    You said it Dot. Crazy as a fucking loon. The evidence is there in just about every comment you make.

  124. .

    You can’t convince you’re not trolling with continued personal attacks with no substance, refusing to look at the evidence and nonsensical statements about government policy documents with “standard clauses” to “no legal effect”. Your response to this is playground level stuff “I know you are but what am I” etc…

    I was right, you were wrong to question my integrity regarding not revealing where I learnt the information from (whereas I would have trusted anyone else on this forum) and I provided evidence – to which you rejected as being untimely but yet which you know continually bring up.

    As said previously:

    State, local and statutory bodies double dip on in-kind infrastructure contributions which they don’t always give credits for. This has been established now, beyond any doubt.

    Why you would run interference over this fact questions your proclivities regarding your pedantry and invective on this site.

  125. Grigory M

    Crazy as a fucking loon, Dot. Every time you post now is evidence of it.

  126. .

    There is nothing crazy about it at all. The egg is simply on your face Grigory and you just don’t like it.

    I was intemperate as you believed I ought to betray commercial confidences (you also demanded that Bolt risk his own personal fortune to satisfy your own personal feelings about the Bromberg judgment), and evidence was posted on the original thread to your satisfaction, simply in an untimely manner.

    You were incorrect, now you are twisting your own argument to the extent that you are saying the explicit evidence I noted, which allows the local authorities to double dip are “standard clauses”, but they have “no effect”. Besides being untrue (the notion that Council policy having no legal effect is entirely untrue), if they are “standard”, then they are widespread and there was no need for you to ask for the explicit evidence of double dipping (regarding forcing private developers to pay for public construction of infrastructure they have already built themselves) anyway, as you would have known already. Whereas it may have been useful for me to supply explicit evidence, you then called me a liar for saying something you knew was true anyway.

    Your behaviour is unbefitting someone who posts on this site in good faith.

    To reiterate what you were most definitely wrong about yet get very cranky about:

    State, local and statutory bodies double dip on in-kind infrastructure contributions which they don’t always give credits for. This has been established now, beyond any doubt.

  127. Grigory M

    Certifiable, Dot. Shouldn’t be long now before the LDP insists you remove your gravatar link to them.

  128. .

    You have given up on argument and rely on invective. To wit, you never argued anything in the first place. You merely trolled as a pedant.

    To remove the egg on your face, admit you were wrong. I’ll ignore the mindless invective you’ve spouted for weeks.

  129. JC

    Grig:

    Are you a Bolthead per chance? Also who made the accusation that you were me, which you suggested was made by someone here.

  130. My friend asked on what grounds did she claim she was being abused and was told it was “because you disagree with me”.

    One woman in the Tasmanian public service felt demeaned by her boss because he asked her quite politely to fetch something. “I’m not a dog!” she yelped. It seems that she was unaware that “fetch” is a perfectly appropriate word, for human beings, to say instead of “go, collect and bring back”.

  131. Grigory M

    Are you a Bolthead per chance? Also who made the accusation that you were me, which you suggested was made by someone here.

    Evening JC. I don’t know what a Bolthead is – presumably something detrimental – if so, I’m surprised you ask – my views on Bolt are well known here – I look in on his blog fairly regularly but I’ve never commented there. As to your second question, IIRC it was a couple of months ago, during a somewhat robust discussion, that Tom opined that I might be you – perhaps he thought my commenting style was similar to yours on that evening.

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