Did you think everyone was going to love the budget on first sight?

In the news this morning, Coalition to step up budget sales pitch, as MPs voice concerns.

FINANCE Minister Mathias Cormann has flagged a new taxpayer-funded advertising campaign to market the budget, amid backbench frustration over cabinet’s sales pitch.

It’s not just the cabinet that’s a frustrated. You were elected to keep Labor out of the Lodge for six years and maybe nine. There were many things that needed to be done, with fixing 18C a low priority and getting the economy right second from the top, just after stopping the boats. The boats have been stopped, but by 2016, even Shorten will work out what he has to say. I won’t believe him, but that’s not the point since millions will.

But it’s the economy, stupid. The great political genius of Labor was to store the spending outside the forward estimates so that they don’t immediately show up. I think I know that, but if it’s true, I only just know it and I am paying attention.

You have done a hopeless job of selling anything. If you have a message, I don’t know what it is. If you stand for anything other than that you are better economic managers than Labor, I don’t know what it is? Think then about how strange this is:

Tony Abbott last night hosted a private dinner for a large group of backbenchers ahead of the meeting to personally reassure MPs and provide further information about the budget.

Only now they are giving information about the budget to the backbench?!? This is bizarre and pathetic. And how bout this:

Some Coalition MPs are frustrated about directives from the Prime Minister’s office that limited the media exposure of senior Coalition figures ahead of the budget, allowing Labor to fill the void with criticism of budget measures.

Well, at least from here you have nowhere to go but up.

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76 Responses to Did you think everyone was going to love the budget on first sight?

  1. “Strongly Agree”. My own local Nats member, Andrew Broad was on ABC radio this morning. Excellent, need to hear more of him.

  2. James In Footscray

    Couldn’t agree more!

    So far the Libs have only said what they’re not – namely profligate. There’s no vision. Has the government once mentioned, say, giving young people a future, trusting people to shape society, enabling Australia to become a world-class innovator?

    It means any initiative (like university deregulation) is only seen as a budget measure. We don’t see any other principle behind it. So of course we focus on how mean it is.

  3. Infidel Tiger

    FINANCE Minister Mathias Cormann has flagged a new taxpayer-funded advertising campaign to market the budget, amid backbench frustration over cabinet’s sales pitch.

    FFS. Someone punch this bloke in the throat.

  4. Badjack

    I think Credlin has gotten above herself and is a control freak.

  5. EB

    a new taxpayer-funded advertising campaign to market the budget

    Oh FFS

  6. Gab

    When you’re too scared to say anything lest it upsets the voters that literally hate you, you end up saying nothing at all.

  7. Greigoz

    I’m hoping that this will teach Abbott & Co. a lesson – they underestimated Labor and the associated interest group’s ability to organize cogent scare campaign(s). And now they see a commanding lead turned into a significant support deficit – very painful and expensive education for the Libs.

  8. Dave Owen

    The problem seems to me to be that Abbott locked himself into too many promises before the election. I cannot understand why they should even mention the raising of the pension age as it is so far into the future. A bunch of amateurs, I would think .

  9. egg_

    Well, at least from here you have nowhere to go but up.

    Or just continue to bump along the bottom, more likely.
    So Credlin treats the back bench with equal contempt as the rest of us, eh?
    FMD.

  10. Greigoz

    I agree @Dave Owen. The pensioners are one of Abbott’s core support groups, but he managed to pointlessly scare these horses as well. This was a pure gold gift to Labor and the Greens, and one that will keep on giving. Nice one.

  11. egg_

    FINANCE Minister Mathias Cormann has flagged a new taxpayer-funded advertising campaign to market the budget, amid backbench frustration over cabinet’s sales pitch.

    Cigar, anyone?

  12. Robert Blair

    From the last few comments by IT:

    “FFS. Someone punch this bloke in the throat”

    “Tony Berk should be booted every time he opens his saliva spraying trap”

    “mandatory winking while raping a pensioner”

  13. Pickles

    So Credlin treats the back bench with equal contempt as the rest of us, eh?

    We don’t know much egg, but we know this with absolute certainty.

  14. Tom

    Some Coalition MPs are frustrated about directives from the Prime Minister’s office that limited the media exposure of senior Coalition figures ahead of the budget, allowing Labor to fill the void with criticism of budget measures.

    Credlin has to go. She is totally out of her depth running the media strategy. She is an amateur. A professional media head-kicker needs to be imported. I can’t see how that can be done with Credlin still there and able to countermand an aggressive strategy. Willing crucifixion by your enemies is not a viable strategy in government. The longer Abbott puts off action on this, the more he imperils himself.

  15. handjive

    So, the government calls for austerity, but, has money for advertising to sell the budget.
    Wouldn’t good advertising be paying the medicare levy with the advertising money?
    Go figure.

    These ‘conservatives’, should get a hint from UKIP result, and this summary from Roger Kimball@instapundit, The Lesson of the EU Election:

    “But one take-away from yesterday’s election is this: when conservative parties cease providing a natural home for the community-binding sentiments of patriotism and national identity—when, that is to say, conservative parties cease being conservative—those parts of the population not indentured to the apparatus of dependency look elsewhere.”

    Already, the UKIP are talking about a royal commission, no less, into the ‘science’ of global warming.

  16. Infidel Tiger

    He sounds totally unhinged, Robert.

    Someone should alert the authorities and check he hasn’t written a manifesto.

  17. egg_

    Tom
    #1321375, posted on May 27, 2014 at 11:31 am

    Grahame Morris must have been shaking his head from the moment they got into Government?

  18. candy

    You sound angry with the issues, Steve.

    Is there any easy way of convincing those affected that $70 per year for doctors’ visits is not unreasonable or that middle class welfare is not sustainable, or reassuring the Aged that the pension will still rise and not be cut?
    A simple ad campaign might help but if a person is convinced they’re worse off, I ‘m not sure anything much will change their mind except in the fulness of time.

  19. Gibbo

    The ABC are now reporting that:
    “Prime Minister Tony Abbott has ruled out a television or radio advertising campaign to spruik the budget, telling MPs such a move would be “disingenuous”.
    However sources have told the ABC the Government will embark on a letter or leaflet drop, targeted at those most affected by the Government’s proposed budget cuts.”

  20. Roger

    Could Abbott & Hockey really be so politically inept?
    Or is it down to Peta Credlin?
    Whatever, it needs to be fixed.

  21. When you’re too scared to say anything lest it upsets the voters that literally hate you, you end up saying nothing at all.

    If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Oh, wait, there’s a lucrative retirement package in the offing. Yep, do nothing it is, then!

  22. Credlin has to go.

    Labor has stopped attacking her. Obviously they now see her as an asset.

    Peta Credlin, its time to leave the island.

  23. Pickles

    Taxpayer funded advertising to do what taxpayers already pay them to do and a lot of us put them there to do. That won’t give anyone the shits. Masterstroke.

  24. Dr Faustus

    “Prime Minister Tony Abbott has ruled out a television or radio advertising campaign to spruik the budget, telling MPs such a move would be “disingenuous”.

    He’d better hope that the ALP, Greens and Palmer ingénues decide to rule out TV and radio too.
    The fustercluck moves on…

  25. Notafan

    How about some positive coverage on the Abc seeing as the taxpayer already paid for that?

  26. Habib

    Going by news this morning on the ABC (veracity uncertain) I wsn’t the only one to contact a local member and others to let them know I will never vote for them again. I reckon more than a few are a bit twitchy, especially now it’s sinking in that our vote, like our capital, is mobile. They need us more than we need them.

  27. Senile Old Guy

    Going by news this morning on the ABC (veracity uncertain) I wsn’t the only one to contact a local member and others to let them know I will never vote for them again.

    Likewise. I think all Coalition MPs in marginal seats, like mine, are very nervous right now.

  28. incoherent rambler

    This is the natural result of a really bad government (think Whitlam). Abbott rightly picked it, that with Gillard/Rudd he needed to nothing other than watch them self destruct. So, for the last few years Abbott and Co. have been in the disciplined habit of doing nothing. Now in government, they continue as they were in opposition, doing nothing.

  29. I am the Walrus, Koo Koo K'Choo

    Yes, this mob really are the B-Team, with L-plates on.

    The Howard government’s 2nd XI. They’ve made a complete meal of the budget.

    All they had to do, any time someone bitched and moaned about lost welfare, was to say ‘I’d like to help you, but there’s no money left, Kevin and Julia spent it all and we have to pay back their debt.’ And just repeat that line over and over until reality sinks in and the whingeing stops.

    But this simple tactic was beyond them. Just how fucking stupid are they??

    How utterly disheartening.

  30. Infidel Tiger

    Yes, this mob really are the B-Team, with L-plates on.

    The Howard government’s 2nd XI. They’ve made a complete meal of the budget.

    Fire Hockey, bring in Porter.

    There must be some others on the backbench who aren’t complete window lickers? 100/1, but it’s possible.

  31. Mantaray

    Ho Hum. Once again…the bookies have the coalition very strong favs for the 2016 election. They’ve seen the budget and have heard the shrieking, and have reacted accordingly, which means; moved the odds in slightly (for the ALP ) “get on ALP suckers, before we reduce them still further”.

    OK Cats,. Here’s your chance to show how much you “respect” the market. You are mostly claiming the Coalition is hopeless and has stuffed it up, so of course you will be jumping on those ALP odds before they are reduced any further. It’s money for jam I tell’s ya!

    On the other hand, the real question is; when to start backing the LNP? Currently they are around $1.50 (were around $1.40)…a 66% chance of victory, so should I wait and hope they they get to $1.60 or $1.70? Or take the $1.50?
    .
    The key is that it’s early days yet. Check the odds on NSW to score the first points in tomorrow night’s State of Origin, followed by a win in the match. Then the odds of them scoring first but not winning. The latter are significantly shorter (ie more likely)Do the Cats scream ferociously when some donkey storms to the front after 200 metres in the Melbourne Cup?

    My advice; give your weak-kneed, hand-wringing, pants-wetting a rest. That’s for the Luvvies isn’t it?

    BTW. The “do-nothings” have already started the unwinding of the Climate Change Scam obsession. They have started the unravelling of the welfare entitlement malaise. They have stopped the boats. They are doing all this well within their first year. The bookies know what works and impresses over time. Do the Cats?

  32. egg_

    Mantaray
    #1321494, posted on May 27, 2014 at 1:13 pm

    You didn’t answer my question in the previous thread.

  33. egg_

    On the other hand, the real question is; when to start backing the LNP? Currently they are around $1.50 (were around $1.40)…a 66% chance of victory, so should I wait and hope they they get to $1.60 or $1.70? Or take the $1.50?

    The bet is ‘sworn in Government’ at any time – not 2016 – again, what say you the odds in 2016?

  34. Token

    FINANCE Minister Mathias Cormann has flagged a new taxpayer-funded advertising campaign to market the budget, amid backbench frustration over cabinet’s sales pitch.

    Is that the sales pitch Corman & Hockey f***ed up by opening the campaign to stir up class warfare?

    Hockey has already been bitten by the feral dog he let loose, seems like Corman is also ensuring he’ll get burned by his moronic stirring on the basest of emotions.

  35. Habib

    See the headline in the Oz this morning, Flappy Boy? More welfare busybodies, assorted other leeches and impediments to economic vibrancy to hire on and replace the job losses in mining. Not even Labor Lite for these mongs, with the scant exceptions of Jensen and Bernardi, who are regaded by their own party as loops. The Liberal Party is rightly doomed, as are we unless the LDP or the like fills the yawning chasm between expectation and delivery.

  36. CatAttack

    The ABC this morning. Apparently the budget will cause an increase in homelessness and suicide. Every woe in the community will now be framed through the budget lens. Waiting for man dies at home. Wife says he couldn’t afford $7 co-payment.

  37. Infidel Tiger

    OK Cats,. Here’s your chance to show how much you “respect” the market. You are mostly claiming the Coalition is hopeless and has stuffed it up, so of course you will be jumping on those ALP odds before they are reduced any further. It’s money for jam I tell’s ya!

    Luckily for the Coalition the ALP are still the alternative.

  38. egg_

    On the other hand, the real question is; when to start backing the LNP? Currently they are around $1.50 (were around $1.40)…a 66% chance of victory, so should I wait and hope they they get to $1.60 or $1.70? Or take the $1.50?

    Hang out til year’s end and take $1.70, if you must back the LNP (seriously).

  39. stackja

    LNP have always over-estimated the intelligence of the electorate. While ALP have always gone for the lowest common denominator. MSM willingly spreads ALP agit-prop. Then there is faux anger about LNP having to spend money in advertising the bleeding obvious that ALP is the problem.

  40. Eddystone

    Gavin R Putland
    #1321426, posted on May 27, 2014 at 12:20 pm
    Perhaps I can help: “Budget 2014: Top ten reasons why you have to work until you’re 70“.

    So more tax is your answer, Gavin?

  41. Petros

    Abbott can kiss control of the senate goodbye. He’s squandered his opportunity and now will have to rely on major ALP stuff-ups to get voted back in.

  42. Simon

    The Libs have cashed out their credibility options , Abbott is now entirely reliant on the ALP to make headway, they (ALP) might just be suicidal enough to revert to fundamentalist unionism during a Royal Commission but I seriously doubt it and not enough people would give a rats either. The hallmark of the Gillard regime was simultaneously profligacy and stinginess whilst breaking promises, Abbott now looks like Gillard lite.

  43. incoherent rambler

    Sorry, I was out of line calling the LNP “do-nothings”. They have raised excise and added a new tax.

  44. James

    BTW. The “do-nothings” have already started the unwinding of the Climate Change Scam obsession. They have started the unravelling of the welfare entitlement malaise. They have stopped the boats. They are doing all this well within their first year. The bookies know what works and impresses over time. Do the Cats?

    +1

    People at the Cats going into panic mode rather unnecessarily. Just as they call for switching to Turnbull as soon as Rudd Mark II brought the polls to 50/50.

    This government is tackling challenges neglected by their predecessors for decades (infra structure deficit, drop in Defence spending looming valley of death, aging population putting pressure on Health, ballooning pension increase, middle class welfare, accountability in Indigenous Bodies, tertiary education reforms, second Sydney airport, western sydney developments). They take on problems passed down by their predecessors as well as those that will become more apparent in the future.

    They are taking the high road to deal with real issues, while all the other opportunistic politicians opt for short term poll boost.

    The politics, narratives, messaging are messy. The hysteria and misinformation are predictable and inevitable no matter what content it has.

    It is more a matter of the management of expectations.

    Hockey compared his budget to some mystical Howard 1996 budget, raised the stakes too high.

    The public won’t remember what is in that particular Howard budget. Everything Howard is looked back in fondness, but it was never rosy when you lived through that moment.

    Of course there will be disappointments. Who would cheer for more payments and less spending?

    Then comes the exaggerations and overkills of cuts cuts cuts and the self-interested remarks of lobby groups.

    After the storm passes, clarify the facts.

    It is not the end of the world. Yes, there are some reductions in benefits and some fees to pay, but overall not as bad as you originally thought. Not happy but acceptable. That’s what they should expect the public to think in the end.

  45. handjive

    “BTW. The “do-nothings” have already started the unwinding of the Climate Change Scam obsession.”
    Indeed, Mantaray.
    Green heads are exploding:
    May 26, 2014

    The analysis by The Climate Institute finds nearly the entire 5 per cut in emissions by 2020 would be left to the final two years of the decade under the funding plan laid out in the budget.

    Spiegel reports here how Australia’s conservative government led by Tony Abbott is now using Germany’s failure as one of the main arguments for getting out of green energies and getting back to affordable and reliable coal power.

    Spiegel, perturbed by Abbot’s direction, writes of his doing away with the CO2 emissions trading scheme and his plans to abolish the CO2 tax.

    The senate ‘horse trading’ guarantees no end to the carbon(sic) tax.
    Palmer’s election to the senate & hate of the LNP has made sure of that.

    FWIW, my ‘thing’ is I can’t comprehend why a conservative party would be anywhere near the freedom hating, people hating failed climate modelled based predictions & policies of the
    greenUN-IPCC at this late stage of the game.
    In this age of austerity, a truly ‘conservative’ halt on the unjustified trillion$ of climate spending wealth re-distribution is justified.

  46. Vicki

    Some Coalition MPs are frustrated about directives from the Prime Minister’s office that limited the media exposure of senior Coalition figures ahead of the budget, allowing Labor to fill the void with criticism of budget measures.

    It sounds ominously like they suspect a mole. And that suspicion will probably be held by Credlin.

    Rather than a media blitz – why can’t Abbott take a segment of peak TV space for a national address? A well written piece that addresses the need for structural Budget reform (put simply) could world wonders.

  47. Vicki

    Sorry – “could WORK wonders”.

  48. Ho Hum. Once again…the bookies have the coalition very strong favs for the 2016 election.

    You obviously know nothing about the betting market. The odds are an accumulation of historical bets, and at any rate are very low in volume this far out from an election.

    I bet the punters (ie the ones who have actually punted so far) weren’t expecting Abbott to break a promise to pensioners not to change the pension within the first twelve months of office.
    That’s the lie that will finish him politically, more than the not-raising-taxes lie.

  49. by the way, I think the pension changes are mostly sensible, and won’t kick in for some time.

    But the thing is, he promised not to do it. On camera, the day before the election. And yet it’s one of the first things he did in office.

  50. Petros

    And let’s not forget that Abbott managed to cut company tax with this budget.
    Yep, he’s in touch. /sarc

  51. Andrew

    People at the Cats going into panic mode rather unnecessarily. Just as they call for switching to Turnbull as soon as Rudd Mark II brought the polls to 50/50.

    Who is this “Turnbull” of whom you speak, and what did Cats say in endorsement of this person?

  52. incoherent rambler

    The only thing heard about Turnbull here has been shouts of “Turnbull for the Tumbrel!”.

  53. egg_

    Who is this “Turnbull” of whom you speak, and what did Cats say in endorsement of this person?

    The person most likely to succeed Abbott, according to the betting markets.

  54. Gab

    People at the Cats going into panic mode rather unnecessarily. Just as they call for switching to Turnbull as soon as Rudd Mark II brought the polls to 50/50.

    That was a one-0ff affair and the person has been sent to re-education camp and been given a clean bill of health since.

    It’s not something we speak of anymore except in hushed tones very late at night.

  55. H B Bear

    This has Credlin and Loughnane’s fingerprints all over it. I have always regarded husband and wife teams with the greatest suspicion, no matter where in life you come across them. This is no different.

    Exactly who is going to be the one to pull the plug on them?

  56. manalive

    I think the pension changes are mostly sensible, and won’t kick in for some time …

    Peter Smith’s comments at Quadrant concerning the change to the indexing of the aged pension to CPI instead of ‘average weekly ordinary time earnings’.
    Let’s assume the average standard of living of the working population improves as most people hope.
    Then the effect of this measure is to deny that improvement to aged pensioners, many of whom would have spent at least half their working lives without the benefit of employer supported superannuation.

  57. H B Bear

    If Cormann thinks advertising this budget will do anything other than keep a few ad execs in coke for a few Friday evenings he is dumber than I thought.

    Anyone wondering about the effectiveness of political advertising should go and google “Howard and Workchoices” while listening to Unchain my Heart. God knows how many tens of millions the King of Pork flushed down the drain with that effort.

  58. People at the Cats going into panic mode rather unnecessarily.

    Not panicking. Just annoyed and disappointed.

    We can see what the advisor class apparently can’t see, which is that breaking big political promises so soon after making them is politically toxic.

    Furthermore, by not really fixing the ‘budget emergency’ – and by introducing new spending – Abbott has left himself no cover for hard decisions. Strategically he’s a mess and has made massive unforced errors.

    This ho-hum response of yours isn’t new. Your ilk were telling us to relax and it would be fine before the polls turned to shit. Then the polls went south, proving us right, and you’re still coming in here trying to hose down concerns. When the facts change, it might be time to change your mind.

  59. Fisky

    That was a one-0ff affair and the person has been sent to re-education camp and been given a clean bill of health since.

    It’s not something we speak of anymore except in hushed tones very late at night.

    It became a mini-constitutional crisis as the Chief Warden of the camp was the very one slated for re-education. The procedural issues were a nightmare so the issue was allowed to die.

  60. egg_

    From previous, if Turnbull were to do a KRudd MkII, he likely would not be manic in his policy announcements during the election campaign.

  61. Mark

    Am at a huge loss why Abbott/Hockey waited till May to start bashing the deficit drum. From day one, 130+billion deficits…a trajectory heading for 660+billion…and the big one…hidden spending in out years trussed up so tight in legal minefields that even an army of constitutional lawyers will have trouble stopping them going ahead…is this the actions of a government for the people or for themselves…Abbott /Hockey should have hit hard on these points and often. AAA rating? So what! While we will try to keep them, Remember this! These are he same rating given to toxic rap products to encourage institutional and state investment….hmmmm…..there is a moral there.

  62. Mark

    Bloody spell checkers….WRAP!

  63. Grigory M

    If you stand for anything other than that you are better economic managers than Labor, I don’t know what it is?

    You are far too generous here, Steve. Abbott & Co say they are better economic managers – but that’s a long way from actually being better economic managers. They have certainly not demonstrated that to me (or, it would seem, to many others who voted for them) in the way this Budget has been prepared and presented. We as a country are in very big trouble if the Government does not lift its financial management game.

  64. Gavin R Putland

    Eddystone #1321542,

    Technically, tightening the pension assets test and scaling back PPL are spending cuts, not tax increases. Preventing people from claiming the pension after squandering their concessionally taxed super would likewise be a spending cut.

    That said, “Top ten reasons why you have to work until you’re 70″ is a commentary on the priorities of the present Budget, and its scope is limited accordingly. For an alternative budget with bigger reductions in welfare spending (specifically Newstart and DSP), see e.g. “Fiscal devaluation on steroids”.

  65. Grigory M

    squandering their concessionally taxed super

    “squandering”? – please explain, Gavin.

  66. Yohan

    Abbott’s problem is he is too nice, genuine and naive. Really… put aside the picture of him as being an aggressive, punching opposition leader, which was a false narrative built up by the left to attack him personally.

    Tony really believed that all he had to do with political strategy once in, was to do a good job, be honest, talk consensus, and the country and media would come with him and respect him. What planet was he living on.

    The budget catastrophe is the result of this naïve, ‘everyone pitch in’ ‘all share the pain’ nonsense. What he should have done is pursue Thatcher style ideological warfare, cut welfare massively, while giving small tax breaks to the middle class to win them over.

  67. jupes

    … while giving small tax breaks to the middle class to win them over.

    Problem is most of them are on middle class welfare. The majority of them would probably still sook if they were given tax breaks but were stripped of welfare.

  68. Yohan

    Problem is most of them are on middle class welfare. The majority of them would probably still sook if they were given tax breaks but were stripped of welfare.

    Yeah that’s why drastic measures are really required, such as removing all middle class welfare altogether, but then going to a low and flat 10-15% tax rate. Such a bigger change could gain middle class support, even if their income remains around the same level.

  69. James B

    Peta Credlin needs to be sacked.

    Also, dump this fucking fuel exicse hike. The fact the Greens are supporting it tells you it’s FUCKING BAD IDEA.

  70. .

    A lot of sense here from the regulars and interlopers.

  71. CatAttack

    Totally agree Yohan. I think Abbott is nothing at all like he is portrayed by MSM and the left.

    After all where are the complaints from the hundreds nay thousands of people who have worked with him or come in contact with him. The tea lady. The cleaner. The cafeteria person. Surely they must all hate hate his guts and found him to be an unbridled misoginist. It wouldn’t be too hard to find a few hundred disgruntled employees you would think. There seems to be this incredible disconnect between the public persona and the private.

  72. johanna

    Very good point, CatAttack.

    The Tony Abbott who spends some of his precious spare time working in Aboriginal communities (whereas Rudd just issued an “apology”) is invisible.

    Of course media bias is part of the problem. But it seems that Abbott’s media advisers are at about the level of those who issue the local pre-school newsletter.

  73. 1234

    More bullshit and wishful thinking Steve. They were elected for three years – the electorate gets to report in 2016. They stood for little or nothing before the election, so I am surprised you expect them to present a unified view now. They did no policy work or party renewal in opposition through inertia, lazyness and and the expectation that they could bring back the Howard years. And don’t presume the only way is up. I expect new lows to be plumbed by this government of “no excuses and no surprises”.

  74. 1234

    Oh, of course, I forgot the “adults” are in charge now (Peta, Tony et al) and the backbenchers are just naughty children who should be seen but not heard. Except they are now likely to cause a riot.

  75. MT Isa Miner

    Roger

    #1321392, posted on May 27, 2014 at 11:47 am

    Could Abbott & Hockey really be so politically inept?
    Or is it down to Peta Credlin?
    Whatever, it needs to be fixed.

    YOu said it . Say it again and louder this time. Yohan may be right that Abbott is too nice and maybe Bear and James know more than I do- Credlin and her boy -piss them both off.

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