Simon Chapman being a bit naughty

So there is a bit of a debate on the value of e-cigarettes. This morning Christian Kerr had a piece in the Australian:

The smokeless devices administer nicotine to users in a similar way to patches or gum, but face legal bars in some states due to a Therapeutic Goods Administrat­ion ban on their liquid nicotine.

A major study last month by University College London found smokers who use e-cigarettes to quit tobacco were 60 per cent more likely to succeed than others.

Now the immediate past director of the National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, Richard Mattick, University of Queensland senior research fellow Coral Gartner and two other Australian experts have joined more than 50 international nicotine science and public health policy specialists in signing an open letter to the World Health Organisation warning against taking an “activist” ­approach to the devices.

“We have know for years that people ‘smoke for the nicotine, but die from the smoke’,” the letter reads. “The vast majority of the death and disease attributable to tobacco arises from inhalation of tar particles and toxic gases drawn into the lungs.

“There are now rapid developments in nicotine-based products that can effectively substitute for cigarettes but with very low risks.”

This afternoon Simon Chapman had this in The Conversation:

This “real world” English study examined 5,863 smokers who’d made a quit attempt in the past year. It found 93 out of the 464 people who used e-cigarettes were successful (20%), while 194 out of the 1,922 people using nicotine replacement therapy made it (10.1%), and 535 out of 3,477 of the people trying to quit unassisted did so (15.4%).

Let’s look at these numbers another way. In this large study, 80% of smokers trying to quit by vaping were still smoking compared with 84.6% of those tried to quit on their own. That hardly looks like a champagne-popping difference deserving the accolades abounding in narratives about vaping.

Chapman is telling us that the 4.6% difference is trivial or unimportant. Well perhaps – without a formal test who can tell? But is that the correct comparator? Actually no.

Rather than compare everyone who tried to quit smoking with an e-cig to any other method of quitting he should have compared the e-cigs to the alternate nicotine replacement therapies. 20% v 10.1% is starting to look a lot more respectable.

The others more or less quit cold-turkey. Those who do are serious quitters – the nicotine replacement quitters are less serious. Within the group who choose to attempt to quit smoking via nicotine replacement it appears that e-cigarettes are a lot more successful. In any event, that 4.6% might be significant and e-cigs might be better than cold-turkey too.

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122 Responses to Simon Chapman being a bit naughty

  1. .

    All those against e-Cigarettes, raise your right hand.

  2. Infidel Tiger

    If you are against e-cigarettes and also claim to want people to quit smoking, you should be imprisoned and have your genitals scolded with boiling oil. For you are a hate filled piece of shit.

  3. Aristogeiton

    I’ve quit cigarettes; a smoker friend of more than 20 years quit; another of 25 years quit. All studies done to date show it’s absolutely safe or at least far less harmful than cigarettes (the ones which indicate the presence formaldehyde are, inexplicably, running the coils at far higher voltages than anyone else does). The vapour is of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerine. It’s legal to import nicotine, but not legal to possess in my state (immorally making me into a lawbreaker). The Cancer Council are against it because of the same tortured reasoning of Simon Chapman (who has made this a personal obsession) and the ‘more studies need to be done’ furphy. Of course people are dying now of lung cancer, which cigarettes are proven to cause, but what would I know?

    http://blog.casaa.org/2013/08/new-study-confirms-that-chemicals-in.html

    http://onvaping.com/the-ultimate-list-of-studies-on-e-cigarettes-and-their-safety/

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/Five-myths-about-e-cigs/14980

  4. MemoryVault

    This whole survey, plus Chapman’s analysis of it, is duckshit.

    I’m a vaper. So is my son. So are several of his friends.
    None of us took it up to “quit smoking” – we all swapped to save money.
    Any health benefits are merely a bonus.
    I don’t know any vapers who are planning to quit any time soon.

  5. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1331538, posted on June 3, 2014 at 3:55 pm
    All those against e-Cigarettes, raise your right hand.

    Pace Joe Goodacre, I will agree that e-cigarettes should be legal, but only after the welfare state is dismantled in its entirety.

  6. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1331552, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:04 pm
    This whole survey, plus Chapman’s analysis of it, is duckshit.

    I’m a vaper. So is my son. So are several of his friends.
    None of us took it up to “quit smoking” – we all swapped to save money.
    Any health benefits are merely a bonus.
    I don’t know any vapers who are planning to quit any time soon.

    Do you dual use? Personally I have no desire at all.

  7. Aristogeiton

    Also I switched for fear of dying of cancer, for the record. I fucking love nicotine, but will now only consume via cigarettes if forced.

  8. Gab

    A major study last month by University College London found smokers who use e-cigarettes to quit tobacco were 60 per cent more likely to succeed than others.

    There’s your answer, Big Pharma doesn’t manufacture the e-cigs, which are after all just nicotine replacement. But nicotine replaced in patches, gums and strips are all okay.

  9. MemoryVault

    Do you dual use? Personally I have no desire at all.

    Still weaning myself off the occasional rollie, Aristogeiton (Champion Ruby Legend).
    Just haven’t got the “hit” quite right yet.
    But I’m down from four packets a week to just one.

  10. Grigory M

    e-cigarettes and nicotine patches are a waste of time and money if you really want to or need to give up smoking. The only way to do it is to avoid nicotine altogether – and that means doing it cold turkey. Nothing else works.

  11. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1331574, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:14 pm
    Do you dual use? Personally I have no desire at all.

    Still weaning myself off the occasional rollie, Aristogeiton (Champion Ruby Legend).
    Just haven’t got the “hit” quite right yet.
    But I’m down from four packets a week to just one.

    I also used to smoke the Champion Rub. I have some new liquids from MBV coming which are 50/50 and some 70/30 VG/Distilled water, and am interested to see how much better they are than the horrible Dekang I am vaping now.

  12. Aristogeiton

    Grigory M
    #1331578, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:17 pm
    e-cigarettes and nicotine patches are a waste of time and money if you really want to or need to give up smoking. The only way to do it is to avoid nicotine altogether – and that means doing it cold turkey. Nothing else works.

    Everyone knows what’s best for me except me. I have given up smoking, as a matter of fact, and both friends, who had worse habits than mine, have given up as well.

  13. Aristogeiton

    Infidel Tiger
    #1331545, posted on June 3, 2014 at 3:59 pm
    If you are against e-cigarettes and also claim to want people to quit smoking, you should be imprisoned and have your genitals scolded with boiling oil.

    You know some people will pay good money to have their genitals scolded.

  14. stevem

    As the author notes the reason for the legal difficulties is that Therapeutic Goods Administrat­ion bans nicotine. Nicotine is incredibly toxic. About 60mg taken orally is enough to kill the average adult.

    Having bottles of the stuff lying around poses health risks. Any other substance that poisonous is carefully regulated and it seems silly to think nicotine should be the exception, just because some people might use it to give up smoking. Many other substances are safe when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions yet are banned because of the risks when misused.

  15. Tim K

    I had been a smoker for over 25 years. Went with an e-cig a while ago mainly for cost and the ability to “stealth vape” wherever and whenever I feel like it. And no offensive smell.
    I might be the only person who wishes to keep this industry underground as regulation (example WA) is already ruining people’s ability to start using these products and get off real cigarettes.

  16. Aristogeiton

    stevem
    #1331588, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:23 pm
    As the author notes the reason for the legal difficulties is that Therapeutic Goods Administrat­ion bans nicotine. Nicotine is incredibly toxic. About 60mg taken orally is enough to kill the average adult.

    Having bottles of the stuff lying around poses health risks. Any other substance that poisonous is carefully regulated and it seems silly to think nicotine should be the exception, just because some people might use it to give up smoking. Many other substances are safe when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions yet are banned because of the risks when misused.

    Yeah. Like bleach, sugar soap &c &c.

    Slave.

  17. Gab

    s the author notes the reason for the legal difficulties is that Therapeutic Goods Administrat­ion bans nicotine. Nicotine is incredibly toxic.

    But apparently not toxic when in the form of patches, gums and strips. :?

  18. MemoryVault

    e-cigarettes and nicotine patches are a waste of time and money if you really want to or need to give up smoking.

    I repeat, I know dozens of vapers and NONE of them took it up as a means of quitting.
    In every case it was a financial decision to allow them to continue enjoying nicotine.
    Using a survey of people who swapped to prove, or disprove that they are an effective aid to quitting is misleading and dishonest, since for most of them it wasn’t their motivation in the first place.

  19. Gab

    Yeah. Like bleach, sugar soap &c &c. Slave.

    There are Material Safety Data Sheets even for H2O.

  20. Aristogeiton

    The real reason for the legal difficulties are the Poisons Regulations in the various states.

  21. .

    Aristogeiton
    #1331562, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:09 pm
    http://www.cancer.org.au/news/blog/prevention/extreme-caution-needed-on-electronic-cigarettes.html

    EXTREME! Caution?

    Does it involve the now deceased Paul Walker, Jason Statham, Tony Hawk or Laird Hamilton?

    Maybe these dudes show CAUTION! to the MAX! instead.

  22. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1331596, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:26 pm
    [...]
    I repeat, I know dozens of vapers and NONE of them took it up as a means of quitting.
    In every case it was a financial decision to allow them to continue enjoying nicotine.
    Using a survey of people who swapped to prove, or disprove that they are an effective aid to quitting is misleading and dishonest, since for most of them it wasn’t their motivation in the first place.

    Against that I have the experience of myself and two others, and some long threads on aussievapers of people who have used the devices to do the very thing. But your broad point is correct; if ‘every cigarette you smoke is doing you damage’, then surely dual use is a feature and not a bug.

  23. Infidel Tiger

    Many other substances are safe when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions yet are banned because of the risks when misused.

    Dihydrogen monoxide being a prime example.

    Fuck this site attracts some creepy bed wetters.

  24. nerblnob

    This issue is really sorting out the control freaks from the tolerant folks. E-cigarettes might or might not help smokers give up. Nicotine is poisonous depending on dose, like most legal toxic substances.

    Who cares? Whether or not the vaper is giving up or just maintaining the habit, there’s no harm to anyone, particularly from the terrible scourge of secondary smoke that threatened civilisation so recently.

  25. Infidel Tiger

    I haven’t smoked for almost 2 years but plan to take up vaping.

    I hate it when everyone else is having a lunger at the boozer and I have to suck my thumb.

  26. Infidel Tiger

    Where are the best places to purchase these products, please?

  27. Aristogeiton

    nerblnob
    #1331612, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:33 pm
    This issue is really sorting out the control freaks from the tolerant folks. E-cigarettes might or might not help smokers give up. Nicotine is poisonous depending on dose, like most legal toxic substances.

    Who cares? Whether or not the vaper is giving up or just maintaining the habit, there’s no harm to anyone, particularly from the terrible scourge of secondary smoke that threatened civilisation so recently.

    Well there is harm, if the alternative is to smoke cigarettes. Why the fuck should I have to break the law to make the best decision regarding my health?

  28. tgs

    Fuck this site attracts some creepy bed wetters.

    Haha, it surely does.

  29. .

    nerblnob
    #1331612, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:33 pm
    This issue is really sorting out the control freaks from the tolerant folks. E-cigarettes might or might not help smokers give up. Nicotine is poisonous depending on dose, like most legal toxic substances.

    For christ’s sake Vitamins A, D and E have toxicity levels that can be reached in the course of normal life.

    The reasoning by these EXTREME CAUTION!!!1 freaks is woeful. They should see a shrink, give a responsible adult enduring power of attorney over them and leave the rest of us alone.

  30. MemoryVault

    As the author notes the reason for the legal difficulties is that Therapeutic Goods Administrat­ion bans nicotine. Nicotine is incredibly toxic. About 60mg taken orally is enough to kill the average adult.

    This, taken from the Cancer Council article, is the kind of utter BS that gets bandies around.
    Nicotine is NOT banned under the TGA. Like many other things, it is regulated.
    In most states it can be imported in 250gram bottles with safety caps.
    60mg of nicotine may kill you, but I’m not certain you would be very much better off after 60mg of pure caffeine. 60mg of ordinary table salt will make you very sick.

    Having bottles of the stuff lying around poses health risks.

    I take medications that would kill my grandkids stone dead if they got into them.
    That’s why they are stored in a high cupboard – next to my nicotine, actually.
    So your point is . . . .

  31. Aristogeiton

    Infidel Tiger
    #1331615, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:35 pm
    Where are the best places to purchase these products, please?

    Serious?

    Try here:

    http://forums.aussievapers.com/new-vapers-forum/17044-noes-list.html

    Better e-liquid can also be got from here:

    http://www.mtbakervapor.com/

    Some fancy e-liquid:

    http://www.houseofliquid.com/PUROS-NATURALES-p/el60m-0-0-puros.htm

  32. Yobbo

    I quit not for fear of dying of cancer, but for fear of dying of a heart attack. But I have relapsed a few times. I would like to try e-cigarettes if I could find them for sale here.

  33. Baldrick

    Many other substances are safe when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions yet are banned because of the risks when misused.

    Don’t ever store your brake fluid near pool chlorine … better still, ban then too. FFS!

  34. Aristogeiton

    Baldrick
    #1331633, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:42 pm
    Many other substances are safe when used in accordance with the manufacturers directions yet are banned because of the risks when misused.

    Don’t ever store your brake fluid near pool chlorine … better still, ban then too. FFS!

    A crowbar, when not used in accordance with the manufacturer’s directions, poses a risk of murder.

  35. .

    I have seen a theory that organic farming may make cigarettes safer.

    The theory is rock phosphate naturally has more Polonium 210 in it than regular soil, and this alpha emitting particle is bioaccumulated when we smoke superphosphate fertilisered Viriginia style tobacco…

    Better filters can help as well.

    As can reducing taxes – companies cut costs by using cheaper, quicker drying methods which actually produce carcinogens.

    Then we have all the additives god knows why a consumer would ask for in the free market.

    All the government need to do is allow the market operate as normal.

  36. Bushdoc

    Simon Chapmans reflex negativity, is par for the course.
    As a doctor I abhor smoking. Sadly one of my offspring took up the habit after dating a chain smoking Englishman.
    I introduced her to e-cig’s because having failed to convince her to stop smoking, at least I can prevent her developing emphysema, ischemic heart disease, cerebro-vascular disease, peripheral vascular disease and risking cancer (I wont bother listing them all).
    Nicotine addiction whilst annoying is by far the lesser of two evils.
    The open letter to the WHO from the 50 experts was a case of reality trumping idealism, long overdue.

  37. nerblnob

    .I hate it when everyone else is having a lunger at the boozer and I have to suck my thumb

    Minding the handbags in my case. It’s the wimmens wot smoke. Keeps the missus out of the pub since the ban, I’ll say that for it,

  38. Aristogeiton

    Bushdoc
    #1331650, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:52 pm
    Simon Chapmans reflex negativity, is par for the course.
    As a doctor I abhor smoking. Sadly one of my offspring took up the habit after dating a chain smoking Englishman.
    I introduced her to e-cig’s because having failed to convince her to stop smoking, at least I can prevent her developing emphysema, ischemic heart disease, cerebro-vascular disease, peripheral vascular disease and risking cancer (I wont bother listing them all).
    Nicotine addiction whilst annoying is by far the lesser of two evils.
    The open letter to the WHO from the 50 experts was a case of reality trumping idealism, long overdue.

    Yes; I was surprised and thought that we were heading inexorably towards open prohibition.

    http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com.au/news/hervey-bay-authorities-cracking-down-illegal-e-cig/2180697/

  39. Infidel Tiger

    They sent a SWAT team to raid a WA e-cig dealer. It’s now banned in WA. Thanks Liberal Government!

    Mike Daube and his nazi cohorts are still ejaculating everywhere about that.

  40. Aristogeiton

    Infidel Tiger
    #1331655, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:57 pm
    They sent a SWAT team to raid a WA e-cig dealer. It’s now banned in WA. Thanks Liberal Government!

    Mike Daube and his nazi cohorts are still ejaculating everywhere about that.

    This is why we need new anti-association ‘bikie’ laws; the police are too busy doing real police work to enforce the laws which enjoin murder and mayhem.

    From the Fraser Coast Chronicle article I posted above:

    There are no legal ways of importing e-cigarettes containing nicotine into Queensland.

    Residents can surrender their liquid nicotine products to their local community pharmacy for destruction.

  41. .

    They sent a SWAT team to raid a WA e-cig dealer.

    It was necessary. He was practicing a form of terrorism, after all.

  42. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1331660, posted on June 3, 2014 at 5:00 pm
    They sent a SWAT team to raid a WA e-cig dealer.

    It was necessary. He was practicing a form of terrorism, after all.

    http://theamericanscholar.org/the-tyranny-of-freedom/

  43. .

    Residents can surrender their liquid nicotine products to their local community pharmacy for destruction.

    Scum, appalling scum.

  44. calli

    you should be imprisoned and have your genitals scolded with boiling oil

    IT, deahh, I’m happy to do said scolding, but would balk at scalding…not nice. Though I would be quite comfortable for them to spend some time in my Iron Maiden, kept tidily away in the special naughty corner.

    Haven’t smoked since I ashed an Alpine on a dress worth a week’s salary (bought on lay-by from the House of Merrivale and Mr. John, no less).

    If others wish to fill their lungs with tar, nicotine and other nasties, and then go on to ruin their expensive cobber, then let ‘em.

  45. .

    http://theamericanscholar.org/the-tyranny-of-freedom/

    Yes. The economically Liberal right were trying to end the United States and create never ending war between the 12 colonies. Ending trade barriers and supply side tax cuts are a policy of the lynching confederates!

    I can’t believe the dishonest shit people spin to attack freedom. They should cut the nonsense and self identify by raising their right hand.

  46. MemoryVault

    I forget who, but somebody here recently posted a link to this blog by Matt Ridley, on e-cigarettes.
    Should be compulsory reading for all the banners and bed-wetters.

  47. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1331673, posted on June 3, 2014 at 5:08 pm
    I forget who, but somebody here recently posted a link to this blog by Matt Ridley, on e-cigarettes.
    Should be compulsory reading for all the banners and bed-wetters.

    Exceptional; thanks!

  48. stevem

    Liquid nicotine should have been banned. It had no use whatever apart from use as a poison – not even useful as a pesticide. My original comment was to point out the reason for it being banned.
    Now it does have a use, but is still a poison. Like all other poisons it should be regulated. All pesticides, for example, have prescribed concentrations, standardised instructions and child-proof containers, yet you can still buy them readily.
    Manufacturers and governments need to agree to these standards and then approve it.

  49. Aristogeiton

    stevem
    #1331684, posted on June 3, 2014 at 5:15 pm
    Liquid nicotine should have been banned. It had no use whatever apart from use as a poison – not even useful as a pesticide. My original comment was to point out the reason for it being banned.
    Now it does have a use, but is still a poison. Like all other poisons it should be regulated. All pesticides, for example, have prescribed concentrations, standardised instructions and child-proof containers, yet you can still buy them readily.
    Manufacturers and governments need to agree to these standards and then approve it.

    It is not importable at concentrations of 100mg/ml, already voluntarily has warning labels, and comes exclusively in child-proof containers. It is, in addition, foul tasting. So looks like the market already took care of that for you assclown.

  50. Aristogeiton

    “concentrations of greater than 100mg/ml”

  51. calli

    All pesticides, for example, have prescribed concentrations, standardised instructions and child-proof containers, yet you can still buy them readily.

    It will get to the point when the concentrated forms of pesticides and herbicides will only be available in the diluted (and you guessed it, more expensive) forms…because the government doesn’t trust me to read the bloody instructions. /rant

  52. Robert Blair

    I have no desire to vape. I gave up smoking more than 30 years ago.

    But I do love a good cigar from time to time: Romeo y Julietta Number 2 (the cuban one, not the Dominican Republic knock-off).

    With neat Glenmorangie. Following a good T-Bone, well done.

    Once that stogie fires up the nicotine just pours out of it. Makes your lips and tongue go numb (which is kinda good, because then you can switch to Glenfiddich and not notice).

  53. Aristogeiton

    Robert Blair
    #1331698, posted on June 3, 2014 at 5:24 pm
    [...]
    Once that stogie fires up the nicotine just pours out of it. Makes your lips and tongue go numb (which is kinda good, because then you can switch to Glenfiddich and not notice).

    Lol.

  54. Senile Old Guy

    Velvet Glove (last year):

    Reptilian sociologist Simon Fenton Chapman is holding forth in this week’s issue of the British Medical Journal in a two-headed debate about e-cigarettes. Naturally, the prohibitionist is touting the benefits of prohibition under the following heading: Should electronic cigarettes be as freely available as tobacco cigarettes? No

    Search the site for more posts destroying Chapman’s pathetic articles.

    PS I am not a smoker, preferring caffeine and wine as my drugs of choice.

  55. Robert Blair

    We are surrounded by nanny-state bedwetters and their Nazi enablers.

    Why do people put up with it? Because, in their undeveloped, child-like brains they fear Death above all else.

    To the modern there is no thing worse than death. Literally nothing. “If only one life is saved” it is worth {insert nanny state prescription here}.

  56. Walter Plinge

    I’ve been travelling around the UK for three weeks. Use of e-cigs is widespread. I’d say they were actually popular. They are readily available, e.g., in Boots and Superdrug.

  57. MemoryVault

    To the modern there is no thing worse than death. Literally nothing.

    Having already died a few times now, I’ve become a bit of a Hunter S Thompson fan on the subject:

    “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!”

  58. MemoryVault

    PS I am not a smoker, preferring caffeine and wine as my drugs of choice.

    You mean we only get to pick two . . .
    Crap.
    So many things to give up.

  59. Infidel Tiger

    “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!”

    Instead he blew his brains out. What a quitter.

  60. Senile Old Guy

    PS I am not a smoker, preferring caffeine and wine as my drugs of choice.

    You mean we only get to pick two . . .
    Crap.
    So many things to give up.

    Now where did I say “only two”?

  61. Baldrick

    Manufacturers and governments need to agree to these standards and then approve it.

    No … governments should stay the fu@k away from manufacturers and impose no standards on any chemical.
    What next … governments are going to tax plant food … oh hang on … ??

  62. Zaphod

    Having already died a few times now, I’ve become a bit of a Hunter S Thompson fan on the subject:

    Any NDEs ?

  63. .

    Manufacturers and governments need to agree to these standards and then approve it.

    Yes, anything which is potentially harmful needs to be regulated by crony capitalism etc.

    Um everything in a large enough dose will kill you – from table salt to beer to apple seeds to sun exposure.

    What an arsehole. Trying to shift the whole economy into fascism on the sly.

  64. MemoryVault

    Any NDEs ?

    Nah.
    You’re here.
    Then you’re not.
    Then you are again.
    No Pearly Gates, no celestial choir, no vestal virgins, no bright light.
    Nothing. Nada. Zip.

    A bit disappointing, actually.

  65. Senile Old Guy

    Well let’s have a formal test then. Fisher’s Exact Test will do.

    Vape versus on your own: P = 0.0123.
    Vape versus patch: P < 0.0001.

    Both significant at the conventional level (P <0.05), even taking multiple testing into account.

    What do you know? Chapman's wrong again. What do you expect from a sociologist whose PhD examined the semiotics of cigarette advertising? (And he was awarded Australian Skeptic of the Year by the Australian Skeptics.)

  66. Robert Blair

    Australian Skeptics: surely there is some illegality involved there?

    Is their title not straight out fraud?

  67. H B Bear

    This problem is easily solved. What is Australian Super Nanny Professor Mike Daube’s position on e-cigs?

    And to misquote what Tits said, whatever he said I’m sure I’m opposed to it.

  68. Senile Old Guy

    Australian Skeptics: surely there is some illegality involved there?

    Is their title not straight out fraud?

    Skeptic societies went into cognitive decline when global warming arose as an issue.

  69. Aristogeiton

    Robert Blair
    #1331801, posted on June 3, 2014 at 6:47 pm
    Australian Skeptics: surely there is some illegality involved there?

    Is their title not straight out fraud?

    They are sceptical of the ability of the infant-citizen to make their own decisions.

  70. Aristogeiton

    Senile Old Guy
    #1331817, posted on June 3, 2014 at 6:53 pm
    Australian Skeptics: surely there is some illegality involved there?

    Is their title not straight out fraud?

    Skeptic societies went into cognitive decline when global warming arose as an issue.

    Just like any Australian organization with the word ‘civil liberties’ in their name. Most illiberal wankers in the Federation.

  71. Hey, I’m a former president of the Tas. branch of the Australian Skeptics; not all members accept the silly, pseudo-scientific conjecture of CAGW. Mind you, I haven’t bothered to attend a meeting in quite a few years, so I don’t know whether my sceptical position would be welcome.

  72. Senile Old Guy

    Hey, I’m a former president of the Tas. branch of the Australian Skeptics; not all members accept the silly, pseudo-scientific conjecture of CAGW. Mind you, I haven’t bothered to attend a meeting in quite a few years, so I don’t know whether my sceptical position would be welcome.

    I know that Deadman. I also know that some members of skeptics societies here and in the US (me, for example) became ex-members when the degree of rigour applied to scrutiny of, well to pick a random example, religious claims was not applied to AGW. Indeed, questioning AGW made you persona non grata in some circles.

  73. Grigory M

    Aristogeiton #1331582, posted on June 3, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    Everyone knows what’s best for me except me. I have given up smoking, as a matter of fact, and both friends, who had worse habits than mine, have given up as well.

    I don’t give a rat’s arse what’s best or not for you, Ari. Nicotine is the hook (sure, there’s holding the ciggie and inhaling and blowing out the smoke) – e-cigs and patches still supply the drug. Cold turkey is the only way to give up – nothing else works.

  74. Mique

    Christopher Snowden is the perfect antidote to Simon Chapman and his pack of fanatical running dogs. An optimist would think that the fact that the media still runs after Chapman’s utterly predictable opinions is more a sign that editors have a sense of humour than that journalists are total dunces.

    As a former heavy smoker (up to 80 a day for nearly 40 years) I agree with those who say that “cold turkey” is the ONLY reliable way to quit, but even that will fail if the smoker doesn’t really want to quit. The Simon Chapmans of this world make me want to start smoking again after 20 years simply to annoy him, just as Malcolm Turnbull’s mere existence guarantees that I will never vote for a republic.

  75. cynical1

    e-cigarettes and nicotine patches are a waste of time and money if you really want to or need to give up smoking. The only way to do it is to avoid nicotine altogether – and that means doing it cold turkey. Nothing else works.

    I agree.

    If you want to stop, you don’t reinforce what you are missing.

    “Hmmm, I am chewing this shitty gum, In the good old days, It would smoking a be a cig”.

    Course, a heart attack is the best stop smoking solution I have tried so far…

  76. .

    As a former heavy smoker (up to 80 a day for nearly 40 years)

    FARK!

  77. Aristogeiton

    Grigory M
    #1331889, posted on June 3, 2014 at 7:23 pm
    [...]
    I don’t give a rat’s arse what’s best or not for you, Ari. Nicotine is the hook (sure, there’s holding the ciggie and inhaling and blowing out the smoke) – e-cigs and patches still supply the drug. Cold turkey is the only way to give up – nothing else works.

    There’s nothing more sanctimonious than an ex-smoker. Even a recovering alcoholic.

    Now, I well understand that it burns you every day not being able to smoke. Further, I understand better than most that it was hard to quit. But the drug you were addicted to is no more harmful than caffeine. The thing that made it so dangerous was the delivery system: burning tobacco leaf. Now that the drug can be delivered safely, I still have to suffer through the same holier-than-thou nonsense I heard from your like while addicted to the cancer sticks? Piss off!

  78. 2dogs

    In this large study, 80% of smokers trying to quit by vaping were still smoking compared with 84.6% of those tried to quit on their own. That hardly looks like a champagne-popping difference

    Given sample sizes over 500 for each treatment, that’s a 99% confidence interval. That’s more than the vast majority of research in the social sciences these days. Champagne cork popping is quite warranted.

  79. Grigory M

    There’s nothing more sanctimonious than an ex-smoker. Even a recovering alcoholic.

    Speak for yourself on that score, Fuckwit – no sanctimony from me – many of my friends and family are smokers and I have no problem with them being so. I expressed an opinion (twice) above on what works for those who want to or need to give it up. Nothing more – nothing less.

    Now, I well understand that it burns you every day not being able to smoke.

    You understand fuck-all, dipshit – I chucked the habit (well over 50/day) over 20 years ago, cold turkey – the urge disappeared within 5 years. Sorry if you’re still suffering (well – not really).

  80. Sinclair Davidson

    I’m a former smoker and I don’t begrudge smokers their habit. In fact I think they are a persecuted minority.

  81. Aristogeiton

    Grigory M
    #1331946, posted on June 3, 2014 at 7:56 pm
    [...]
    You understand fuck-all, dipshit – I chucked the habit (well over 50/day) over 20 years ago, cold turkey – the urge disappeared within 5 years. Sorry if you’re still suffering (well – not really).

    Doing fine actually, dimwit. I enjoy my nicotine and don’t have to suffer from cancer as a result. You just can’t stand it, can you?

  82. Aristogeiton

    Apply the same reasoning to alcohol or caffeine and relish the cognitive dissonance.

  83. Grigory M

    The Simon Chapmans of this world make me want to start smoking again

    Mique – Chapman has been living off the public purse for at least 30 years – he has made a long career out of pontificating on what smokers should and shouldn’t do. There is no reason in the world for him to really want people to give up their addiction to nicotine.

  84. Aristogeiton

    I understand that the ‘urge’ dissipates even faster upon castration.

  85. Infidel Tiger

    The smoking lobby need to get the homos, muzzies and the orientals on board. They all love a smoke and I’m sure banning it is racist and potentially homophobic since it’s banning sticking something phallic in your gob.

  86. .

    Every gay man I know smokes ciggies. They love smoking fags.

  87. Grigory M

    I enjoy my nicotine and don’t have to suffer from cancer as a result. You just can’t stand it, can you?

    Huh? Can’t stand what, asshole – that you don’t have to suffer from cancer? I’m actually glad if that’s the case – I bear you no ill will. But as to whether you smoke or e-cig or patch – as I said earlier, I couldn’t give a rat’s arse.

  88. calli

    e-cigs and patches still supply the drug. Cold turkey is the only way to give up – nothing else works.

    I am married to a sample of one…who gave up a lifelong habit using the patches. He started smoking by pinching his mum’s ciggies and smoking them in his….bubble pipe. He was 58 when he stopped smoking, a Herculean task.

    There’s always an exception, thank goodness.

  89. MemoryVault

    I expressed an opinion (twice) above on what works for those who want to or need to give it up. Nothing more – nothing less.

    You keep missing the point, Grigory.
    For most of us it’s not about wanting or needing to give up smoking (nicotine from burning tobacco).
    It’s about getting our nicotine cheaper and/or more safely.
    Most of us have no desire or intention of “giving up”.
    Why would we?
    Nicotine without the smoke is no more harmful than caffeine, as Ari keeps pointing out.

    Personally, I took up smoking at age 18 on doctor’s advice.
    Gave up twice over the years, and ended up back in hospital both times.
    Now I can get both the pleasant “lift” and the medicinal benefits of the nicotine,
    without the harmful side effects, or the cost, of the smokes.
    What’s not to like, and why the hell would I want to give it up and go back to spending my winters in hospital with oxygen tubes up my nostrils?

  90. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1331989, posted on June 3, 2014 at 8:19 pm
    [...]
    Personally, I took up smoking at age 18 on doctor’s advice.
    Gave up twice over the years, and ended up back in hospital both times.

    Holy crap! I wish my excuse were that good.

  91. Quibbler

    I bought an e-cigarette for Mr Quibbler as a “give up smoking aid”. As nicotine wasn’t available except via importation I opted for minty something or other and mango surprise flavours. Long story short, he wasn’t interested so I tried to sell the kit on eBay and it got pulled quicker than a listing for crack cocaine and I was threatened with all sorts of action if I dared attempt to list it again. I was amazed.

  92. Aristogeiton

    Quibbler
    #1332001, posted on June 3, 2014 at 8:29 pm
    I bought an e-cigarette for Mr Quibbler as a “give up smoking aid”. As nicotine wasn’t available except via importation I opted for minty something or other and mango surprise flavours.

    Nicotine or else there’s no point. You can order from overseas.

  93. MemoryVault

    Holy crap! I wish my excuse were that good.

    I assure you, it’s not worth it.
    I was born with non-functional cilia in my lungs.
    They don’t do anything – they just sit around – I think they belong to the CFMEU.
    So crap just accumulates in mucus until it gets infected, then it’s off to hospital for a few weeks.

    One of the ill-effects of smoking is that it interferes with the normal wave-like motion of the cilia.
    Nicotine turns the normal wave motion into a disorganised rabble, reducing the cilia’s effectiveness.
    However, in my case disorgnised rabble is better than striking union rabble.
    So at least some of the crap gets cleared, and I don’t spend winter in hospital with lung infections.

    A Perth doctor who had been a POW at Changi clued me in to smoking as a way to deal with it.

  94. Perpetual Motion

    Nicotine is a gift from the Gods.

    Cigarettes are not so good, so in fear of cancer after a 30 year habit, I gave them up 2 years ago with the aid of patches and lozenges.

    However, I still delight in a couple of Cohibas each month. No inhalation, just absorb that lovely nicotine through the mucosa.

    Just finished one in fact, and it makes the world a better place, and me a better person.

  95. nerblnob

    Walter Plinge
    #1331741, posted on June 3, 2014 at 5:53 pm
    I’ve been travelling around the UK for three weeks. Use of e-cigs is widespread. I’d say they were actually popular. They are readily available, e.g., in Boots and Superdrug.

    Obviously Australia needs to send an SAS unit to eradicate them and then parachute in an emergency re-education team to convert them to our superior ways of repression.

    People these days can’t seem to see that undesirability and illegality aren’t, and oughtn’t to be, the same thing.

  96. Christopher Snowdon

    The irony is that Chapman is a champion of ultra-low risk epidemiology and would never dream of looking at the absolute difference in, for example, lung cancer risk from secondhand smoke. In that instance the claimed risk is of the order of about 1.20 (20%), meaning that a lifetime passive smokers’ risk rises from about 0.05% to 0.06%, ie. a difference of 0.01%.

  97. Talleyrand

    Worked with lots of Swedes for some time, snus chewing tabacco was all the rage. Globs of black masticated pulp discretely spat out, in endless meetings. Rather surprising, given their love of the heavy hand of Mummy government.

    I say bring back snuff, complete with periwigs, lace cuffs and ivory snuff boxes. But of course snuff was banned some years back completely, so my Regency renaissance will be short lived .

    A 2 pack a day man in my twenties, Gauloise sans filter, also mini cigars/cigarillos and the occasional cherry pipe tabacco. Quit cold turkey first time, no regrets.

  98. bobby b

    “Makes your lips and tongue go numb (which is kinda good, because then you can switch to Glenfiddich and not notice).”

    Philistine.

    Oh, and . . . .

    The rush to ban vaping has nothing to do with health or safety.

    The anti-smoking moralizers have decreed that we lowlifes can no longer smoke tobacco. Moving to vaping represents us lowlifes finding a way around their authority for our own dirty little purposes, and Shall Not Be Allowed.

    Our betters have spoken, and we ought to be grateful to them for their wisdom. Instead, we openly abuse their authority, and mock them. We wil have to be taught better.

  99. nerblnob

    Basic 12yo Glenfiddich certainly has more cutting taste and character than the “pale, delicate” basic 10yo Morangie.

    But Glenmorangie has complicated things by putting out whiskies finished in port wood and the like which are damn delicious. (Quinta Ruban etc).

    Like I said, bobby b, their opposition to e-fags has really shown up the Health Guardians as wowser control freaks used to playing “health concerns” or “safety concerns” as an unbeatable trump card.

    Fuck em all and good on the 50+ who wrote to the WHO. Why don’t you all just fu-fu-fu-fade away, as the other WHO had it.

  100. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    There are Material Safety Data Sheets even for H2O.

    hahaha. Not surprised, Gab. People have been known to die in it. Dangerous stuff in large amounts.
    But fine in small glasses with CO2 added. Frizzante, per favore.

    Vapers are useful for quitters – gives you something to do with your hands. Presumably you can adjust the dosage down to not much or nothing at all. People coming off Methodone have been know to get high on pure orange juice in the final stages of giving up. There is a lot of psychology involved in addiction.

  101. nerblnob

    Lizzie, what does it matter whether vapers are useful for quitters or not? They’re not a law and order problem except for those who have philosophical or ideological objections so leave the poor buggers alone.

  102. rickw

    This is the same Simon Chapman who is a member of Gun Control Australia and who lent his dubious research and analysis skills to guns as a public health issue?

  103. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    nerblob – I am not proscribing or prescribing anything. The availability of Vapers seems to matter to quitters, that’s all. If others enjoy Vapers, good on them. I am all in favour of Vapers even though I have never seen one, smelt one, used one or ever thought about one before. Worry beads are also good; I am in favour of them too, for other people. I am also in favour of good wine, money and small government. I have a wide selection of things that I favour and in general I let other people get on with favouring their selections too, unless or until they get in the way of mine. Currently, I favour going to bed, as it is late at night after an evening on the plonk here in Sicily.

  104. nerblnob

    Lizzie, I didn’t mean to imply you were the one objecting. I was agreeing in a UK style “let’s all get indignant together” fashion, a sad habit I’ve succumbed to.

    That Nero d’Avola can be fairly potent down there in Sicilia, nice place to be on holiday.

  105. Tel

    60mg of ordinary table salt will make you very sick.

    I would throw more than that on top of a regular meal, which probably had salt in it to begin with. Then I add salt & vinegar peppers, and maybe eat some olives or something. I feel fine.

    I’m told that high purity nicotine is dangerous to handle because it goes through you skin quite quickly and easily, can’t say I’ve tested it out. I think probably the biggest danger of the vaping is that buying stuff over the Internet you will get questionable quality control (worse if government tries to ban them) so consumers won’t know the concentration of nicotine they are getting.

  106. Tel

    The smoking lobby need to get the homos, muzzies and the orientals on board.

    I know a few Japanese who are moving over to vaping, presumably with no intent to quit but interested in health benefits and lower cost.

    If vaping gets big in Japan, Singapore, Korea, etc then the Aus bed wetters will have to roll over.

  107. Max

    So the bed wetters are trying to ban a product that they THINK MIGHT be dangerous and push people towards Cigarettes, a product which we KNOW is dangerous???

  108. Max

    Furthermore – to get setup with vaping you need:

    a Postal Address
    to be prepared to wait for delivery
    around $50 – -$70 bucks???

    All of these represent a much higher barrier to entry to teenagers versus sharing around $1 individual cigs

  109. Bruce

    Does anyone know how Simon feels about smoking ciggies of the marijuana variety or does he just gets his nuts in a knot about nicotine and guns? He’s never really been the same since his very attractive anti-gun ally,Rebecca Peters,pissed off to the States to crush the NRA.

  110. .

    rickw
    #1332572, posted on June 4, 2014 at 6:28 am
    This is the same Simon Chapman who is a member of Gun Control Australia and who lent his dubious research and analysis skills to guns as a public health issue?

    The very same.

    Baker and McPhedran shredded that shoddy research of Chapman and Alpers. Dr Don Weatherburn described the Baker & McPhedran paper as “reputable” and “well conducted”.

    Chapman is full of himself.

  111. Anto

    The problem I have with these studies is their “either” “or” nature – either you’ve given up entirely, or you’re still a smoker.

    That doesn’t jive with the most common experience of vapers, which is that many will still smoke a bit. For example, I vape almost exclusively, but a few times a week, I will have a tobacco cigarette with a beer. The two just go together. However, under most of these surveys’ definitions, I would still be described as a smoker.

    What I want to see is surveys (I refuse to call epidemiology “studies” or “scientific”) conducted into how many smokers have substantially cut down their tobacco consumption via vaping.

    [I'm also enjoying immensely the knots that anti-tobacco nutters are tying themselves in, in attempting to justify banning e-cigs, while continuing to promote the products of their pharmaceutical masters. "What, so you want to ban steam now?"]

  112. Aristogeiton

    Anto
    #1332836, posted on June 4, 2014 at 11:28 am
    The problem I have with these studies is their “either” “or” nature – either you’ve given up entirely, or you’re still a smoker.

    That doesn’t jive with the most common experience of vapers, which is that many will still smoke a bit. For example, I vape almost exclusively, but a few times a week, I will have a tobacco cigarette with a beer. The two just go together. However, under most of these surveys’ definitions, I would still be described as a smoker.

    Any e-liquid recommendations?

  113. Jimbo

    The most ignorant comments ive read amongst all these posts is from Grigory M, you say vaping doesnt help you quit smoking, guess what? vaporizers dont produce smoke so you HAVE actually quit smoking and smoke is what is nasty in a cigarette, the stuff that kills you is the smoke and other chemicals but not the Nicotine, the article even states that. Nicotine that is within ecigs is about as harmful as the caffeine in your coffee, ecig users are junkies as much as a coffee drinker is.
    As for another comment i read about dying from 60mg of nicotine, thats in its pure form which most likely would be stopped at customs. Most ecig users vape a nicotine that has been diluted to about on average 1.2% thats right there is a decimal there so 100% compared to 1.2% is a huge difference. Many are looking at Nicotine as the bad guy here, if its harmless and doesnt effect you then there should be no fear, do you realise many vegetables have Nicotine in them naturally? you probably eat many of these daily, actually id put money on it.
    You need to understand, many ecig users have done the research, probably more then many scientists have and its quite obvious with the research that this is a great invention for those that want to quit and for those who enjoy Nicotine but dont want to get cancer from the carcinogens and other chemicals in cigarettes. People who enjoy Nicotine are no different from coffee drinkers, if only people looked into things instead of regurgitating mainstream propaganda.

  114. Aristogeiton

    I’m surprised how many regular posters here are vapers. I am also heartened by the libertarian bent of many discussing this issue, especially after the disappointment of the LDP immigration policy thread of doom. Now if only my new e-liquid would arrive today!

  115. Bruce

    Is this the same Simon Chapman who was one of the kingpins in the concerted campaign to defame and criminalise shooters and collectors in Australia?

  116. .

    One and the same, Bruce.

    Leyonhjelm, Whelan, Baker and Mc Phedran all clipped him over the ears.

    Dr Don Weatherburn said Baker and Mc Phedran’s research was “reputable” and ‘well conducted”.

  117. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1333423, posted on June 4, 2014 at 5:52 pm
    One and the same, Bruce.

    Leyonhjelm, Whelan, Baker and Mc Phedran all clipped him over the ears.

    This Leyonhjelm fellow sounds like a cultural Marxist to me.

  118. Cy Burns

    Personally I’m one of those that took up e-cigs not in order to quit but to save money. After 12 years of pack a day smoking I ordered my first e-cig pack after a stack of online research into the best brands, most like real cigs etc etc made my choice and when it arrived I put the current pack of cigarettes on top of the fridge. I gave myself three days to try to stick to the e-cig without reaching for a real cigarette figuring that if it didn’t do the trick or turned out to be overrated I’d just go back to the old fashioned Stuyvesants. That was more than two years ago and that same pack sits untouched to this day and I became an instant convert. The slightly heavier weight of the e-cig took about a week to get used to but now I much prefer it and would never go back to tobacco. I didn’t care a whit about the health effects – I just wanted to smoke *inside* the pub, at gigs and on planes. (All of which I have done without any hassle). However – low and behold it turned out I breath better and stronger, ride and swim faster and longer than ever and feel fitter now at 34 than I did at 15. I have never felt deprived, I ‘smoke’ (vape) constantly and my recent medical came back with lung capacity tests at 120% of average for my age. Now that I’ve experienced it I do suddenly care about the health effects but I have no intention of using e-cigs to ween off nicotine or smoking. I love them and doubt I will ever stop using them. My doctor considers me a non-smoker now, where as I just consider myself smoking something different that isn’t harmful and can’t bug any do-gooders around me. It’s win-win. If you buy into the ‘putting passive smokers in danger’ propaganda (which is bullshit anyway) why on earth would you not be celebrating this product? The only thing that worries me is the press attention it’s starting to get being causing undue attention to be focused on this heretofore relatively ‘underground’ culture and that it panic media culture will kill it before it even gets off the ground. Nanny whingers – we found a loophole in your dogmatic jack booting. Deal with it, because you have no solid argument against it.

  119. .

    Aristogeiton
    #1333877, posted on June 4, 2014 at 11:33 pm
    .
    #1333423, posted on June 4, 2014 at 5:52 pm
    One and the same, Bruce.

    Leyonhjelm, Whelan, Baker and Mc Phedran all clipped him over the ears.

    This Leyonhjelm fellow sounds like a cultural Marxist to me.

    He also sounds like a racist Nazi to me who won’t do citizens arrests on Cabinet Ministers who discuss the use of force against dictators and terrorists.

    The man is dangerous and must be detained. To protect our liberties, and for his own good.

    His cultural Marxism-fascism won’t spread far in the supermax.

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