The siege of Baghdad begins

Iraq crisis: Baghdad prepares for the worst as Islamist militants vow to capture the city:

Iraq is breaking up. The Kurds have taken the northern oil city of Kirkuk that they have long claimed as their capital. Sunni fundamentalist fighters vow to capture Baghdad and the Shia holy cities further south.

Government rule over the Sunni Arab heartlands of north and central Iraq is evaporating as its 900,000-strong army disintegrates. Government aircraft have fired missiles at insurgent targets in Mosul, captured by Isis on Monday, but the Iraqi army has otherwise shown no sign of launching a counter-attack.

The nine-year Shia dominance over Iraq, established after the US, Britain and other allies overthrew Saddam Hussein, may be coming to an end. The Shia may continue to hold the capital and the Shia-majority provinces further south, but they will have great difficulty in re-establishing their authority over Sunni provinces from which their army has fled.

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185 Responses to The siege of Baghdad begins

  1. Bill

    A breakup is very plausible. Kurdistan is effectively a separate country anyway. But breakup is better than a genocidal civil war. The Shia’s wont accept a loony Sunni dictatorship, so there is no way they are going to overrun all the country.

  2. Bruce of Newcastle

    The Kurdish move is interesting, being similar to Putin’s move into Crimea.

    In the 21st Century you cannot overtly conquer a territory, like Saddam Hussein tried to do with Kuwait, but you can move into a political vacuum like Kirkuk and make it stick…if you have patience to wait until the opportunity opens up.

  3. Gab

    If you read Wally Aly’s latest duplicitous and pathetic offering, you’d be hard pressed to figure out which religion is motivating this latest fiasco. Presbyterians perhaps? Oh yeah and it’s all the West’s fault.

  4. .

    The Kurds have had it tough. You wish the Kurds in Turkey did not choose communism as their ideology of liberation.

    Obama is a failure.

    Libertarians were right #975267

    Plan all the way to the end. Plan for total, uncompromising victory with your enemies totally crushed or do not engage in combat at all (within the rubric of flexible response).

    The is the cheapest, best, most peaceful and long run stable and secure option.

    Given the strategic situation, I say the US has to fight.

    Given the retreat in Afghanistan, Obama is going to give al Qaida three countries.

    Even Clinton wouldn’t abide by one or two and took action.

  5. Notafan

    It’s interesting that people have fled Mosul to Kurdistan.
    They must believe the Kurds won’t surrender to ISIS. Isis will have no hesitation in killing everyone that even looks at them the wrong way so Shias and Kurds will have to resist or die. I don’t know whether Iraq will break up. That might depend on what Isis consider Umah? to consist of.

  6. Rabz

    Oh yeah and it’s all the West’s fault.

    For overthrowing that exemplar of benevolence and stabilidy, Saddam Insane.

  7. Lysander

    I’d colonise it for a couple of hundred years and then give it back when it has been anglophied and civilised.

    Oh. Not PC?

  8. blogstrop

    Naughty Lysander! Under PC multiculturalism any border which doesn’t enclose a single tribe is up for renegotiation.

  9. Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    There are NO moderate muslims only islamofascists and the rest,the killing in Iraqand Syria is good ,mulims killing muslims,also the murders inAfghanistan and Pakistan,reducing muslim numbers is a good thing, the worry is Pakistan with its nuclear weapons ,we may have to nuke them one day to prevent the islamofascists from getting nuclear weapons while we are at it give Iran a dose too, The West Russia and China should be getting together to wipe islamofascism from the face of the earth,before the islamofascists wipe them out one by one .

  10. Baldrick

    “My team is working around the clock to identify how we can provide the most effective assistance to them. I don’t rule out anything, because we do have a stake in making sure that these jihadists are not getting a permanent foothold in either Iraq or Syria, for that matter,” President Obama said.

    In other words:
    “My Twitter and Facebook teams is are working around the clock to identify how we can provide the most effective ‘Tweet’ or ‘Like’ assistance to them. I don’t rule out anything even using the word damn or any other bad language, because we do have a stake in making sure that these American supplied jihadists are not getting a permanent foothold in either Iraq or Syria ‘s Twitter feed, or Facebook, for that matter.”

  11. Alfonso

    Allegedly 30,000 Iraqi “soldiers” fled in the face of an advance by 900 Islamic totalitarians at Mosul.
    Despite naive US optimism there was never any way to change Iraqi cultural values, Saddam actually was the best choice as long as his attempts to nuke up were bombed.
    The original Western aim of killing as many AlQ as possible worked well. Now time to get out of Dodge and stay out of Dodge. The Kurds will be super happy to sell their recently acquired oil.

  12. crocodile

    It’s all about the oil. The Sunnis control the centre. All the oil is either in the northern Kurdish regions or the southern Shia ones. Zip in the Sunni region. They want to get their hands on it.

  13. stackja

    As I remember Iraq was invented by the League of Nations, like many ‘countries’. Does Iraq need to exist? What is wrong with separate states?

  14. .

    I was listening to the communists on ABC News Radio (well, they don’t treat the listener like an imbecile) and reports are the Kurds filled a power vacuum.

    The Kurds want to defend themselves, and ISIS aren’t particularly strong, having to offer concessions and guarantees of moderation.

    It seems their real goal is to drive into Baghdad.

    Any ADF officers current or retired? I have a question.

    Why doesn’t the Iraqi Army and her Allies in the Kurds and USA encircle ISIS and smash them, ala Bien Dien Phu?

  15. crocodile

    As I remember Iraq was invented by the League of Nations, like many ‘countries’. Does Iraq need to exist? What is wrong with separate states?

    Yes, carved up by the victors over the old Ottoman empire.

    There’s significant Kurdish populations in Turkey, Syria and Iran. The last thing these guys want is a new found independent Kurdistan on their back doorstep.

  16. Dr Faustus

    There is something soothingly karmic in seeing Iran getting the Shiites about an islamofascist terrorist organization flourishing on its doorstep.

  17. Mater

    Why doesn’t the Iraqi Army and her Allies in the Kurds and USA encircle ISIS and smash them, ala Bien Dien Phu?

    - CNN
    - Allegedly 30,000 Iraqi “soldiers” fled in the face of an advance by 900 Islamic totalitarians at Mosul.
    - ‘Friendly fire isn’t!’

  18. stackja

    crocodile
    #1345522, posted on June 13, 2014 at 12:39 pm

    As I remember Iraq was invented by the League of Nations, like many ‘countries’. Does Iraq need to exist? What is wrong with separate states?

    Yes, carved up by the victors over the old Ottoman empire.

    There’s significant Kurdish populations in Turkey, Syria and Iran. The last thing these guys want is a new found independent Kurdistan on their back doorstep.

    Then let Turkey, Syria and Iran solve their own problem.

  19. There’s significant Kurdish populations in Turkey, Syria and Iran. The last thing these guys want is a new found independent Kurdistan on their back doorstep.

    I can’t see the Kurds letting this opportunity pass, especially considering the alternative is likely genocidal extermination. Rembember, they are Muslims second, not first.

  20. .

    - CNN
    - Allegedly 30,000 Iraqi “soldiers” fled in the face of an advance by 900 Islamic totalitarians at Mosul.
    - ‘Friendly fire isn’t!’

    It could be entirely planned.

    Generals are usually foxes, not bulls.

  21. Demosthenes

    the worry is Pakistan with its nuclear weapons

    Amidst the babble is this truth. ISIS look like a death cult who would not hesitate to nuke as many of the infidels as possible, presumably starting with Israel and working anti-clockwise. Pakistan’s faction-ridden system of fiefdoms (especially within the military-security apparatus) means support for terrorists in the pursuit of all kinds of agendas, religious and geopolitical. And Pakistan has already leaked nuclear tech to Iran, NK and Libya.

  22. .

    ISIS are worth fighting. al Qaida at one stage disendorsed them for being too belligerently psychopathic!

  23. Alfonso

    Yeah, London to a brick it’s ‘entirely planned‘.

  24. old bloke

    I’d say let it break up and let the chips fall where they may. Iraq isn’t and never has been a single nation; it’s a mix of Shia Arabs in the south-east (the greater majority), Sunni Kurds in the north, and Sunni Arabs in the south-west. The Iraqi “nation” was formed when the British controlled Mesopotamia, the three major groups living there have always despised each other. The Sunni hate the Shia, and the Kurds hate the Arabs.

    Any move by ISIS to capture (Shia) eastern Iraq will bring (Shia) Iran into the war. Any move by (Shia) Iran into Iraq will be countered by a move from (Sunni) Saudi Arabia to expell the Iranians.

    There’s nothing but trouble ahead here, we should stay well clear of it.

  25. .

    I know that’s an insult, but what’s your point?

  26. Max

    There’s nothing but trouble ahead here, we should stay well clear of it.

    Yep not worth a drop of Aussie blood or a cent of Aussie resources.

  27. Demosthenes

    Flashback from 2006.

    Iraq’s national-unity government is not united and does not govern. Iraqi security forces, the centerpiece of the U.S.’s efforts for stability, are ineffective or, even worse, combatants in the country’s escalating civil war. President George W. Bush says the U.S.’s goal is a unified and democratic Iraq, but we have no way to get there. As Americans search for answers, there is one obvious alternative: split Iraq into separate Kurdish, Sunni and Shi’ite states.
    …………………………………………
    U.S. officials are now asking that Iraqis agree to a program of national reconciliation, changes in the constitution to protect Sunni interests, and an oil law that would share revenues equitably. It’s instructive that this initiative aimed at unifying Iraq comes from Americans and not the country’s elected leaders. A U.S. effort to put Iraq back together would involve endless micromanagement of Iraqi affairs and an open-ended presence of large numbers of U.S. troops. Breaking up Iraq, on the other hand, could provide an exit strategy for U.S. troops, mitigate the worst effects of civil war and give all Iraqis a greater stake in shaping their future. Few Americans imagined that 3 1/2 years after “liberating” Iraq, the U.S. would be presiding over the country’s demise. But in a war in which there have never been good options, partition is the best we have left.
    …………………………………
    Meanwhile, U.S. officials speak of Iraq’s army and police as if they were neutral guarantors of public safety. Iraqis see them for what they are: Shi’ites or Sunnis who are active combatants in Iraq’s civil war. Shi’ite police units have kidnapped, tortured and executed thousands of Sunnis since the Samarra bombing. Sunni policemen are often insurgents or sympathizers. The army, while marginally better than the police, is divided along sectarian lines and is largely ineffective. Whole battalions do not show up for combat duties they don’t like. It is not possible to build a national army or police force when there is no nation to begin with.

  28. .

    I’ve been for a long time worried about a war with Iran.

    They are likely to fight until exhaustion.

    The Churchillian carve up of the mid East never made sense to me. Why weren’t most of Iraq and Syira joined say as “Assyria” under the Hasehmite extended family with access to the Persian Gulf and also Kurdistan from the old Ottoman Empire and Persia in exchange somewhat for and parts of Eastern and Southern “Iraq” given to Persia?

    It has been nearly 100 years, so maybe there is an Iraqi identity.

  29. .

    Max
    #1345579, posted on June 13, 2014 at 1:17 pm
    There’s nothing but trouble ahead here, we should stay well clear of it.

    Yep not worth a drop of Aussie blood or a cent of Aussie resources.

    You should have said so in 2003.

    Total commitment or total non commitment are the only good policies with war.

  30. Max

    You should have said so in 2003.

    True

  31. Ant

    Didn’t the “sub-human barbarians” who want to return Iraq to the Stone Age get Barack’s memo on how he was going to “heal the planet”?

  32. Mater

    Dot,
    The Second Battle of Fallujah was intricately planned for months, but still ended up being the bloodiest battle of the conflict.
    The situation is similar and warrants some study (for both the tactics used and the reaction of the media).

  33. Toiling Mass

    And if (when) Iraq is lost, the left will start putting about the meme that it was always going to end this way and therefore it was foolhardy to have gone into Iraq in the first place – Damn that George W Bush!

    Like all the ills and maladies that their politics have visited upon society – the increasing lawlessness through the lackadaisical administration of laws, generational welfare dependency, appalling violence violence in Aboriginal communities – they will blame the right and insist that the answer always is and was more of their solutions.

  34. MT Isa Miner

    .

    #1345584, posted on June 13, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    I’ve been for a long time worried about a war with Iran.

    They are likely to fight until exhaustion.

    The Churchillian carve up of the mid East never made sense to me. Why weren’t most of Iraq and Syira joined say as “Assyria” under the Hasehmite extended family with access to the Persian Gulf and also Kurdistan from the old Ottoman Empire and Persia in exchange somewhat for and parts of Eastern and Southern “Iraq” given to Persia?

    It has been nearly 100 years, so maybe there is an Iraqi identity.

    I bet there is an Iraqi identity, I.T. I used to think that the middle east was just fucking mad but once I started thinking about them as medieval tribes it made some sense. Course compared to us- they are fucking mad but that is comparing apples ( anglo-celtic tribe) and oranges ( Levantines) Gotta love history- had to look that word up- funny no-one uses it any more.

  35. MT Isa Miner

    Max

    #1345591, posted on June 13, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    You should have said so in 2003.

    True

    Me too, changed my mind since then.

  36. Max

    Me too, changed my mind since then.

    we should have just nuked the Taliban the day after 9/11 and put every Islamic nation on notice.

    Control your terrorists or face complete and immediate annihilation.

    The alternative is like wrestling in quicksand

  37. Fisky

    Obama chalks up another triumph for international jihadism!

  38. old bloke

    You should have said so in 2003

    Actually Dot, I did.

  39. OldOzzie

    This Daily Mail article sums it all up neatly –

    “Ancient hatreds tearing apart the Middle East: How 1,400-year-old feud between Shia and Sunni Muslims flared into life with the fall of dictators like Gaddafi and Saddam… and threatens to swallow Iraq
    Sunni and Shia factions have been warring since 632AD disagreement over successor to prophet Muhammad

    ISIS militants – who are Sunni – have been stampeding through majority-Shia Iraq
    But the militants have stuck to Sunni heartlands, where residents are glad to be rid of Shia government forces
    Religious tensions are flaring again now that dictators such as Colonel Gadaffi and Saddam Hussein have fallen
    Rest of the world – and especially other Middle Eastern states – are watching nervously as the conflict intensifies”

    The map accompanying the article highlights the stupidity of the British/French carve up of the area after the Ottomans

    What is occurring is the regression to original tribal/religious borders.

    The West should let them kill each other, and let them take themselves further back into the middle ages, making sure no Refugees from Middle East – they need to live with their own consequences.

  40. brc

    Abbott would do well to steer clear of committing anyone or anything to this.

    Of course, that will make it his fault for not stopping the inevitable. Or not opening borders to the people fleeing.

    The whole region is at war at the moment.

    Sink more tracking wells, stop buying oil off the region, stop any travel to/from affected areas and tell them to sort it out.

    The longer people from countries like Australia try to interfere the worse we make things. Either invade and colonise or leave the place alone. There is no upside for a country this far away and this different from theirs to even suggest to them what to do. There are no ‘good’ sides in this war. It took centuries of European war and bloodshed before they sorted out their borders and learned to get along to the point where they compete only in World Cup and Eurovision.

  41. JMH

    “The West should let them kill each other, and let them take themselves further back into the middle ages, making sure no Refugees from Middle East – they need to live with their own consequences.”

    I fully agree and throw in a number of tough sanctions along the way. Access to their oil should not be the argument for the West to ‘help’ them any further into the future.

  42. Roger

    EB
    #1345510, posted on June 13, 2014 at 12:25 pm
    Words of the god.
    http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/video/american-foreign-policy-iraq-ridiculous/

    Thanks EB.
    I’m centre-right, not Libertarian, but Ron Paul was right in 2002 when he opposed the proposed invasion and occupation of Iraq. But fools like George W. Bush rush in where angels – and even his father – feared to tread, knowing that the likely outcome of removing a strong man leader in an artificially imposed Middle East nation of ethnic, religious and tribal fiefdoms is never going to end well. Now the very worst of Islamic militants attempt to fill the power vacuum with some success. Who’d a thought?

    But having invested so much blood and treasure there, our present leaders are unlikely to sit on their hands and let Baghdad fall or even be attacked. If that be the case, for once I agree with dot – if you must go in, go in hard and obliterate the bastards from the face of the earth.

  43. Yon Toad

    Proof of that old saw that the only people Arabs hate more than Jews are other Arabs. Let the bleeders stone each other into oblivion.

  44. Aynsley Kellow

    Beer Whisperer: correct. I have a good source, who tells me the four or so Islamic parties in Kurdistan account for only about 20% of the vote, and the overwhelming majority are secular. They will fight to the death to defend their autonomous region — especially as they see this as a chance for full independence in a three-state outcome.
    Baghdad has not been paying the peshmerga, so they feel they owe them nothing. They have also been withholding funds, and the KAR government has begun shipping oil through Turkey in retaliation. I think Iraq is about to break into three, but the Sunni would be foolish to let ISIS be their ‘liberators’. If they go after the Shia, look out for Iran.
    It must be galling for the US to see that at least some of the ISIS from Syria are waving US weapons.
    This is a dangerous situation.

  45. Infidel Tiger

    We should bomb the Middle East with MDMA and glowsticks.

  46. Robert Blair

    IT:

    Doesn’t MDMA make you thirsty?

    It is a very region y’know.

  47. Robert Blair

    “dry” region even …

  48. Mater

    We should bomb the Middle East with MDMA and glowsticks.

    ‘Weapons of Mass Distraction’?

  49. I am the Walrus, koo koo k'choo

    We should bomb the Middle East with MDMA and glowsticks.

    Chemical warfare, 2010s style.

    Two whole countries – Iraq and Syria – dissolving before our eyes, into a red-mist miasma of civil war.

    The gates of hell are open wide.

    This is extraordinary. History happening right before our eyes.

    Get ready for lots more – and worse – to come, with the ‘community organiser’ at the helm.

  50. Token

    - Allegedly 30,000 Iraqi “soldiers” fled in the face of an advance by 900 Islamic totalitarians at Mosul.
    – ‘Friendly fire isn’t!’

    It could be entirely planned.
    Generals are usually foxes, not bulls.

    Remember how the Ba’athists which were made unemployed by the US quickly joined the insurgency a few short years ago. This is a pre-planned re-allignment by the non-Shi’ites in the region. I found an interesting alternate viewpoint on PJMedia:

    Four years ago I predicted that the result of America’s apparently successful effort to contain violence in Iraq through the so-called “surge” would be a devastating and uncontrollable civil war in Iraq. I titled the essay “Gen. Petraeus’ Thirty Years War,” arguing that

    Richelieu looked at me with what might have been contempt. “It is a simple exercise in logique. You had two Ba’athist states, one in Iraq and one in Syria. Both were ruled by minorities. The Assad family came from the Alawite minority Syria and oppressed the Sunnis, while Saddam Hussein came from the Sunni minority in Iraq and oppressed the Shi’ites.

    It is a matter of calculation – what today you would call game theory. If you compose a state from antagonistic elements to begin with, the rulers must come from one of the minorities. All the minorities will then feel safe, and the majority knows that there is a limit to how badly a minority can oppress a majority. That is why the Ba’ath Party regimes in Iraq and Syria – tyrannies founded on the same principle – were mirror images of each other.”

    “What happens if the majority rules?,” I asked.

    “The moment you introduce majority rule in the tribal world,” the cardinal replied, “you destroy the natural equilibrium of oppression.

    “The minorities have no recourse but to fight, perhaps to the death.”

    With the US leaving, it is in the interest of the Kurds & Sunni’s to get out of that union – possibly to link with the Sunni’s and Kurds in Syria to create states of enough critical mass to survive.

  51. Token

    The article is not complimentary to Petreus:

    Having armed all sides of the conflict and kept them apart by the threat of arms, the United States now expects to depart leaving in place governments of national reconciliation that will persuade well-armed and well-organized militias to play by the rules. It is perhaps the silliest thing an imperial power ever has done. The British played at divide and conquer, whereas the Americans propose to divide and disappear.

    At some point the whole sorry structure will collapse, and no-one knows it better than Petraeus. There are many possible triggers. The Iraqi government might collapse, leaving the political agenda to the men with guns. Iran might acquire a deliverable bomb and turn its dogs lose in Iraq after the Americans withdraw. Iran and Pakistan might come to blows over the fractious province of Balochistan on their mutual border, or over Iran’s covert support for Pakistan’s Shi’ites, who comprise a fifth of the country’s population. Or the Israelis might strike Iran’s nuclear program, or Syria, or the Hezbollah clients of Syrian and Iran in Lebanon.

    One suspects a good # of the 30,000 appear again, like the Ba’athists did in ’03 after the US destroyed their power structure and left them without any income.

  52. jupes

    You’re a funny fellow Dot. One day you’re telling us there are only 200 Muslim terrorists in the world then you pop up on posts like this with some sensible (as well as naive) comments.

    Plan all the way to the end. Plan for total, uncompromising victory with your enemies totally crushed or do not engage in combat at all (within the rubric of flexible response).

    Absolutely.

    It could be entirely planned.

    LOL. FMD you can’t be serious.

    Why doesn’t the Iraqi Army and her Allies in the Kurds and USA encircle ISIS and smash them, ala Bien Dien Phu?

    As has been pointed out, the Iraqi Army actually ran away from a vastly numerically force. They don’t have the guts or coordination for siege warfare. Also there are civilians remaining in Mosul. The modern western world, at least, doesn’t have the stomach to kill civilians in order to win battles. The Kurds are too busy taking the opportunity to form their own state to be bothered helping the Iraqi government.

    ISIS are worth fighting. al Qaida at one stage disendorsed them for being too belligerently psychopathic!

    Absolutely, as are all Islamic terrorists (the slightly more than 200 of them I might add).

    I’ve been for a long time worried about a war with Iran.

    A war with Iran and who? Iran fought a war with Iraq for nearly a decade in the ’80s. Didn’t worry me too much at the time. To paraphrase Rummy: it’s a pity they both can’t lose.

    Total commitment or total non commitment are the only good policies with war.

    Generally yes, however it is also good policy to cycle your forces through someone else’s conflict in order to gain operational experience. At certain levels, the ADF will benefit from the operation experience it gained in Afghanistan.

    Obama chalks up another triumph for international jihadism!

    All 200 of them.

    Sorry Dot, I won’t mention it again. Promise.

  53. Paul

    Gee, I wonder how much Saudi money is behind this one. Awfully well organized, well equipped, well funded and capable, and appeared sort of out of nowhere. Hardly an “Arab Spring” moment. The breakup of Iraq was always part of the plan (Yinon Plan). More Blackwate….sorry Al Qae…..er make that Isis bullshit.

  54. Mr Rusty

    I disagree that we should not get involved. We need to send as much aid as possible to whichever side is losing until all the fighting ceases.
    By “aid” I do of course mean the kind of aid the U.S sent the Afghanis and Contras in the 80′s – generally pointy, made of lead and comes in different sizes from 5.52mm upwards.

  55. the siege requires that there be defenders. The Iraqi army is capitulating.

    The withering away the Iraqi army sounds like me at something sort of a very shrewd military coup

  56. Paul

    For overthrowing that exemplar of benevolence and stabilidy, Saddam Insane.

    Yeah. Things sure went well after his fall.

  57. Robert Blair

    Token:

    In the linked article:

    The British played at divide and conquer, whereas the Americans propose to divide and disappear.

    To be fair, that was how the British played it back then. The current lot would play it it more or less the same as the USA.

  58. Notafan

    Northen Iraq on the border with Syria has been under control of ISIS for some time, as I understand it. It can’t have been a complete surprise for somebody, surely?

  59. brc

    One thing is for sure, fairfax is going to have a job ahead of it keeping the budget protests on the front pages.

  60. Aynsley Kellow

    ‘The modern western world, at least, doesn’t have the stomach to kill civilians in order to win battles. The Kurds are too busy taking the opportunity to form their own state to be bothered helping the Iraqi government.’
    1. I undertand there is more fear in Mosul of being bombed by the Iraqis than of ISIS.
    2. The peshmerga offered help but it was not accepted.

  61. Robbo

    And should we be surprised at this news? Iraq is a cesspit and a basket case that has absorbed billions of dollars and countless lives of US and its allies troops that were sent there to overthrow a ruthless dictator so that a hopelessly corrupt and incompetent regime could be established in its place. All of that occurred under the cover of a massive military force and amazingly the geniuses who masterminded all of that did not see that when they eventually packed up and left the loonies would march in and retake the asylum. What great minds they have in Washington DC, London and Canberra. Now they are in panic mode and talking up a reentry of troops into Iraq to hold off the Islamic maniacs. For how long will that particular move last? Forever, or perhaps even longer than that? While Obama and his Generals are worrying about Iraq they should spare a bit of time to have a worry session about Afghanistan because the same scenario will occur there. Is it a forlorn hope to think that the lessons from all of this will be learnt? Apparently the lesson of Vietnam has been well and truly forgotten but surely these two latest fiascos must be resonating inside the heads of some of the decision makers, or at least in the heads of those who advise the decision makers. Places like Iraq and Afghanistan are ungovernable and they are inhabited by people who think that killing their enemies is a good thing to do and that they will be rewarded by Allah for so doing. Under no circumstances should we be sacrificing the lives of our military personnel in such countries. To do so is a disgraceful and appalling waste. Leave them alone to kill each other if they wish and just make sure that none of them are allowed to enter our country under any pretence of being asylum seekers. We don’t need them and we don’t want them.

  62. jupes

    1. I undertand there is more fear in Mosul of being bombed by the Iraqis than of ISIS.

    Sure. If you do exactly as ISIS say you may not be beheaded. For women than means staying indoors and only coming out when absolutely necessary with ‘appropriate’ clothing.

    Iraqi ordinance is less discriminating.

  63. Notafan

    Is there any time in recent history where early intervention by outsiders has been successful ? Close the borders (if possible) so that only women and children can get out and weapons can’t get in and let them fight til a winner emerges.
    They can let the jihadists just not back out again.

  64. Beef

    Let em have at it I say, once they sort out which brand has which area, send in the Islamic freedom fighting drones.

  65. Notafan

    If ISIs are up to usual form they will be slaughtering takfiris, they don’t take prisoners, well not for that long.

  66. Aynsley Kellow

    Exactly, Jupes. At least they feel they have some chance of escaping the beheading if they tow the line; bombing, it’s the luck of the draw. Hobson’s choice, but a choice nonetheless.

  67. Token

    …Iraq is a cesspit and a basket case that has absorbed billions of dollars and countless lives of US and its allies troops that were sent there to overthrow a ruthless dictator…

    Why, oh why do the morons oppose CSG exploration? Why can we not be allowed to live in a world where we are not dependent on fuel sitting under countries populated by people who allow themselves to be kept in the dark ages while being revved up by the most vile demogogues?

  68. Mater

    Having armed all sides of the conflict and kept them apart by the threat of arms

    This is one of the greatest misconceptions when dealing with conflict in the Middle East. The ‘threat of arms’ doesn’t work very effectively when the opponents are intent of becoming a Martyr. Death is welcomed if achieved in the right manner.
    Threatening to shoot a suicide bomber, if he doesn’t ‘halt’, is not only ineffective, but makes you look decidedly stupid!

  69. Alfonso

    Well, more CNG/LPG. It’s running out our ears.
    If car makers did factory new large underfloor gas tank vehicles, with no petrol option, I’d buy that Landcruiser tomorrow…..but no , they force retro fitting small space eating tray or boot fitted play tanks.

  70. John of Perth

    What gets me shaking my head is the $20 billion plus spent to train the Iraqi Military since its “liberation”. I accept that a large portion was syphoned off by corruption, but what does that indicate with the level of supposed quality western training. This training focused heavily on counter terrorism and insurgency, which is exactly how ISIL/ISIS operate in a non-conventional sense. It makes you increasingly worried that the US and to an extension the western world have little on the ground ability to stop such a determined entity like the ISIS, despite a superior technological advantage. The Saudi Arabian government would be in a panic if these were to ever get into the country to impose their rule as their military is Western trained and has questionable loyalty. It can only effectively shoot protesters in Bahrain let alone tribes near Yemen despite all the money thrown at it, making it look like a house of cards waiting to fall.

  71. John of Perth

    I should note that if Syria is a good example the Kurds are the only entity that has made considerable wins against the ISIL and can beat them on an equal basis so there maybe hope yet.

  72. .

    Jupes you took liberty with my argument long ago which I didn’t articulate well and put together poorly. Only about 200 “Islamic” terrorist acts have occurred in the west outside of a combat area going back to the PLO hijackings etc. Israel is part of an ongoing undeclared war and arguably not ‘Western’.

    You may wish for the Iraqi Army to sacrifice themselves for your vanity because you hate religion in all its forms.

    I’ll leave that up the generals of their army who have been beaten by and retrained by the best.

    Going on Heritage Foundation numbers (some incidents are disputable), there may have been about 600-700 individual terrorists who have attacked the West, and about 200 who have been foiled.

    I won’t bring up your hysterical idea there are millions of Islamic terrorists.

  73. John of Perth

    I sometimes wonder if the way the Mongols decimated the Middle East left a lasting psychological impact. It seems in history these local populations rarely offer serious fight when against such brutal a forces like the ISIS. They seem to fold or a paralysed out of an ingrained fear to resist against numerically inferior but brutal and highly trained/disciplined forces.

    I suppose that enough musings

  74. Robert Blair

    Steyn:

    Forty years ago, as another American client regime crumbled, the US Ambassador sportingly offered asylum to a former Cambodian prime minister, Prince Sirik Matak. His response is worth quoting:

    I thank you very sincerely for your letter and for your offer to transport me towards freedom. I cannot, alas, leave in such a cowardly fashion. As for you and in particular for your great country, I never believed for a moment that you would have this sentiment of abandoning a people which has chosen liberty. You have refused us your protection and we can do nothing about it. You leave us and it is my wish that you and your country will find happiness under the sky. But mark it well that, if I shall die here on the spot and in my country that I love, it is too bad because we are all born and must die one day. I have only committed the mistake of believing in you, the Americans.

    So Sirik Matak stayed in Phnom Penh and was murdered by the Khmer Rouge

  75. Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    Let them all kill each other there are no “goodies” in this rubbish heap area, and when one side is celebrating “victory” ,Eliminate them,cleanse the world of medieval fascism ?

  76. Clam Chowdah

    Let them all kill each other there are no “goodies” in this rubbish heap area, and when one side is celebrating “victory” ,Eliminate them,cleanse the world of medieval fascism ?

    Isn’t there some ultra fascist right wing site you can visit to spread your bigoted hate?

  77. john constantine

    so the lefties are loudly weeping that the west was evil for trying to create a multicultural state in iraq ?

    the lefties are weeping that unsophisticated people are not capable of living in peace in a multicultural society??

    the lefties are revealing the leftie solution- that a strong dictatorship of the ‘correct groupthink’ is the only way to successfully multiculturalise.. [and the lefties selflessly volunteer to provide the correct sort of people to rule. we are us.]

  78. Alfonso

    ‘Let them all kill each other there are no “goodies” in this rubbish heap area…’

    All things considered, seems reasonable.

  79. Token

    Eliminate them,cleanse the world of medieval fascism ?

    It is one thing to note they choose to live in that state, another thing (which is quite distateful) to suggest a solution which is akin to what the Mongols did.

  80. Robbo

    “so the lefties are loudly weeping that the west was evil for trying to create a multicultural state in iraq ?”

    I’m no leftie and I’m not weeping and not for one minute do I say that the west was evil for getting involved. What I do say is that they were bloody stupid and bloody ignorant.

  81. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Well, this is history in the making – live.

    My own contacts are noting that the Pechmerga are active and are concentrating on Kirkuk (the Kurd ‘capital’) and that the break up of Iraq is now a defacto matter.

    The Iranians have sent 2 Bn of the Al Quds section of the Revolutionary Guard to Baghdad to stiffen the Iraqi Army, unconfirmed reports of ‘other elements’ of teh iranian revolutionary Guard fighting in Tikrit now (a counter-attack is underway there). The Shia booted all the Shai from Baghdad years ago so if ISIS take it there will be a bloodbath the likes of which we have not seen in modern times.

    A US contact has wonderingly noted to me that the thought of Iranian Revolutionary Guards calling in US air strikes is actually being thought possible by the preshizzle (Paco™) and his pack of burbling incompetent kiddies (he’s the smartustut man in da Yooniverse, donchaknow). hell, it’s so serious The Preshizzle (Paco™) is thinking of hitting the golf course.

    For that strategic imbecile, that’s as serious as it gets.

    We are literally watching the entire strategic structure of the Middle east as established in 1920 by the Treaty of Sevres dissolve before our eyes.

    ISIS are within a whisper of controlling 20% of the world’s oil. Riyadh’s leaders are watching everything they have deliberately built blow up in their face. Everything.

    Heckuva job, Barack Hussein Soetero! Could not have done better if he was on their side. This is a strategic disaster worse than Czecheslovakia in 1938.

    There is a very good chance of the Iranian Army crossing the border to occupy and protect the Shia south-east of Iraq, sometime in teh next week or so. Watch Tikrit.

  82. Robert Blair

    MK50:

    +10 for the Paco references.

  83. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Meanwhile, on their ABC, large numbers of effeminates are playing with their balls in Brazil. Or something.

    there’s no ‘abbottabbottabbott666′ gotcha in what might be the single most significant strategic change of teh generation, so the worthless cretins are ignoring it!

  84. Alfonso

    A single US armoured division can clean the ISIS advance up in a second…..sending them back to guerilla warfare in Sunni areas.
    If the Iranian Rev guards can’t quickly get on top of ragtag terrs trying to pretend they’re an army, the Iranians have a problem.

  85. Myrddin Seren

    Northern Iraq on the border with Syria has been under control of ISIS for some time, as I understand it. It can’t have been a complete surprise for somebody, surely?

    Interesting question Notafan.

    Goodness knows what ISIS expected to happen when they sallied against Mosul in what appears from Youtube to have been about 900 fighters in ‘technicals’.

    Notwithstanding their successes in al Anbar – it’s a heck of a punt to motor in to a city of 2 million people with allegedly a corps-size military force in the area. I doubt we will ever know if they just planned a raid-in-force, or whether they anticipated the rout of the Iraqi officer corps – closely followed by their cannon-fodder grunts.

    If ISIS correctly anticipated the collapse of the army and police – they have one heck on an intelligence assessment capacity – or the biggest cojones.

    Which sort of suggests that there indeed may be much more to unravel in all this – as the Iranians feed in troops to support their Shia clients in Baghdad.

  86. Boambee John

    “Naughty Lysander! Under PC multiculturalism any border which doesn’t enclose a single tribe is up for renegotiation.”

    I seem to recall that during George W’s time, a suggestion was made to break Iraq into three nations, one Kurdish, one Sunni, and one Shiite.

    Putting aside Turkey’s horror at the thought of a Kurdish nation on its border, the multicultis went beresk.

    Now it is going to happen, by force of arms and with massive bloodshed, instead of under controlled circumstances, with a large US force present to supervise.

    Blood on someone’s hands!

  87. notafan

    If ISIS correctly anticipated the collapse of the army and police – they have one heck on an intelligence assessment capacity – or the biggest cojones

    Or a very substantial fifth column inside Mosul?

  88. harrys on the boat

    Obamas clocking up quite a foreign policy resume. Lost Iraq, lost Afghanistan, lost Libya, lost Egypt, lost Syria and you could argue lost the cold war. If I were the Japs id bomb pearl harbor.

  89. mizaris

    we should have just nuked the Taliban the day after 9/11 and put every Islamic nation the day after 9/11.
    Control your terrorists or face complete and immediate annihilation.The alternative is like wrestling in quicksand

    Dammit yeah!!!!! +1

  90. DrBeauGan

    Give guns to whichever side is losing, Mr. Rusty? Certainly not. We should sell them.

  91. john constantine

    so barry o’bama gave the heads up to the angry people, that all they had to do was wait, draw up a list of targets, and daydream about exactly what torture to inflict on their enemies.

    i do wonder what will happen to any village that has a street parade,cheering and celebrating as they tow dead iranians behind utes down the main drag. i am tipping that iranian revolutionary guard rules of engagement might be a little different to the enlightened and inclusive ones that just failed.

    –how many iranians will be punished for happily give the thumbs up after a winning skirmish?.

  92. john constantine

    the french might have a few unused white surrender flags left over they could let obama have.

    if the french are cheese eating surrender monkeys,

    obama must be a golf playing surrender donkey.

  93. oldsalt

    Guys, please remember our first casualty there.

    Bob Wellcock, an indig bloke from South Aus and skipper of the Fremantle registered Shenton Bluff was murdered by the Iraqi airforce in 1987 during the tanker war phase of the Iran Iraq war. Another Aussie was wounded. French jet French missile.

    Bobby’s party piece was Animal Crackers in my Soup, performed in jocks and wellies on Pub tables from Shark Bay to the Barbary Coast. He left us during Grand final week and I suspect St Peter would’ve given him a free ticket to the MCG.

  94. Ros

    A little unkind of me but I am inclined to think, Iraq has had its chance, no more of soldiers should die on their behalf.

    Iraqi Kurdistan is a different matter. They have been betrayed by the west too often.

    And one good reason why we should help the Kurds, while life for women isn’t perfect, honour killing is a problem, nevertheless the Pashmerga provide secret safe houses for women at risk of honour killing, while negotiating with their wacky families on their behalf. This is probably in part do to the fact that women serve in the Pashmerga, their highest ranking officer is a Colonel.

  95. stackja

    Sir Stanley George Savige (1890-1954), army officer and founder of Legacy, was born on 26 June 1890 at Morwell, Victoria, eldest of eight children of Samuel Savige, butcher, and his wife Ann Nora, née Walmsley, both Victorian born.
    Volunteering for special service, he was sent to Persia in March 1918 as part of Dunsterforce. He won the Distinguished Service Order for protecting refugees while under fire, and later recorded his experiences in Stalky’s Forlorn Hope (Melbourne, 1920). Thrice mentioned in dispatches, he sailed for Melbourne where his A.I.F. appointment terminated on 24 April 1919.

    This article was published in Australian Dictionary of Biography, Volume 16, (MUP), 2002

  96. gnasher

    I sure hope that Obongo doesn’t win any more Nobel Peace prizes, we will all be fkd.

  97. Petros

    The Turks won’t be too happy about an independent Kurdistan.

  98. bons

    D N G A F
    Could it spread to Bankstown? Hope so.

  99. Viva

    OK – time to bring back Alexander the Great. The current battlefields in northern Iraq form the backdrop of his great victory at the Battle of Gaugamela. I’d like to see the short work he would make of this lot – equipped of course with the latest hardware. It would not be pretty:

    http://myweb.unomaha.edu/~mreames/Beyond_Renault/end_of_Gaugamela.jpg

  100. Perpetual Motion

    the french might have a few unused white surrender flags left over they could let obama have.

    Hey, the French kicked arse in Mali. France is the only Western nation that can actually claim a proper win against the mediaevals this century.

  101. .

    What Mk50 said is amazing.

    Iran now protecting Saudi Arabia.

    You wouldn’t have read about it until now.

  102. Peter from SA

    Yes just read this. What Mk50 said is is amazing. Are Revolutionary Guards already fighting in Iraq???

    The point about the Treaty of Sevres is especially apt. saw on the news just now the ISIS mob joyfully digging up the colonial boundary markers …

  103. Fisky

    Has Bernard Lewis commented on these events anywhere? This is pretty much his gig.

  104. Tel

    Just in case anyone is wondering, there are no Americans in Baghdad Airport.

  105. Tel

    The Turks won’t be too happy about an independent Kurdistan.

    The Kurds might be forced to try and negotiate so they become a protectorate of Turkey. Admittedly, the oil is the prize here so Kurds would lose their economic independence forever, but on the other hand pumping and selling oil on the international market is a tricky business, not well suited to smaller players. Also, I’d be guessing your average Kurd does not see much of those oil profits today, so for most of them keeping their culture would be a boon, even without the oil money.

    Turkey is broad minded and multicultural, when you compare with ISIS.

  106. Robert Blair

    Viva:

    The battle of Gaugamela (or Arbela…) was – well, it was awesome. It actually started on the River Granicus. From there Alexander slowly, but surely, psychologically destroyed Darius.
    On the day Alexander knew exactly what Darius would do. It was like a Cobra with a white rat.

    Nice of Darius to get the battlefield all smoothed out beforehand though. Made it so much easier for Alexander to maneuver.

    Alexander knew what all the great commanders knew – it is primarily a battle of wills.
    Which we have precious little of here in the feminized west.

    BTW, one of the most expensive books I ever bought was E W Mardsden’s “The Campaign of Gaugamela”. Well worth it.

  107. Tel

    With regard to people being surprised about the Iranian Revolutionary Guard operating in Iraq, it was reported already back in 2006, and the only recent change is they are more open about it:

    It was around 9 pm on the 11th of April when we finally saw the footage of Saddam’s statue being pulled down by American troops- the American flag plastered on his face. We watched, stunned, as Baghdad was looted and burned by hordes of men, being watched and saluted by American soldiers in tanks. Looking back at it now, it is properly ironic that our first glimpses of the ‘fall of Baghdad’ and the occupation of Iraq came to us via Iran- through that Iranian channel.

    We immediately began hearing about the Iranian revolutionary guard, and how they had formed a militia of Iraqis who had defected to Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. We heard how they were already inside of the country and were helping to loot and burn everything from governmental facilities to museums. The Hakims and Badr made their debut, followed by several other clerics with their personal guard and militias, all seeping in from Iran.

    Today they rule the country. Over the duration of three years, and through the use of vicious militias, assassinations and abductions, they’ve managed to install themselves firmly in the Green Zone. We constantly hear our new puppets rant and rave against Syria, against Saudi Arabia, against Turkey, even against the country they have to thank for their rise to power- America… But no one dares to talk about the role Iran is planning in the country.

    The last few days we’ve been hearing about Iranian attacks on northern Iraq- parts of Kurdistan that are on the Iranian border. Several sites were bombed and various news sources are reporting Iranian troops by the thousand standing ready at the Iraqi border. Prior to this, there has been talk of Iranian revolutionary guard infiltrating areas like Diyala and even parts of Baghdad.

    http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com.au/2006_05_01_archive.html

    There’s a number of other references on the same blog that ultimately Iran would end up taking over Iraq, at least taking over all the Shiite dominated areas, which is a lot of Iraq.

  108. Ros

    Speaking of rivers interesting article New Scientist about isis starting down the euphrates in jan. Now got a grip on the tigris as well. Control a number of dams. May not have to conquer baghdad, now control water and hence farming on which most iraqis depend.

  109. Viva

    BTW, one of the most expensive books I ever bought was E W Mardsden’s “The Campaign of Gaugamela”. Well worth it.

    Haven’t come across that one yet Robert – I’ll look out for it. Robin Lane Fox takes some beating.

    May I recommend Into the Land of Bones by Frank Holt. So named because Alexander’s troops were horrified when they invaded ancient Bactria by the locals’ habit of leaving dead bodies around to be eaten by dogs.

  110. Paul

    “Northern Iraq on the border with Syria has been under control of ISIS for some time, as I understand it. It can’t have been a complete surprise for somebody, surely?”

    Convoys of latest model Hiluxes, guns like nobody’s business, and the CIA with all its ongoing operations didn’t see it? The drones operating everywhere didn’t pick it up? This is bullshit. This plan has clearly been in the making for some time, and has been kept under wraps at pretty high levels. I wonder what the real target is?

  111. Tel

    Convoys of latest model Hiluxes, guns like nobody’s business, and the CIA with all its ongoing operations didn’t see it?

    They see everything and say nothing, just like the fridge magnet said not to do.

    I’m sure those Hiluxes have serial numbers, with transactions in databases, and it would be very easy to trace back where they came from (yeah, Hiluxes come from Toyota, I knew that, but you understand what I’m getting at).

  112. I wonder what the real target is?

    Um, get ‘em all out in the open and kill all the terrorists at once??

    Nah, too smart for Obozo. If the conspiracy theory is right, Obama and his Muslim Brotherhood brothers are enabling their fellow Sunnis to run riot. Not looking so ridiculous a theory anymore.

    Obama is as dangerous as a chimp with a gun. And no, no racist double meaning. Why the hell do I need to make a fucking disclaimer? Fucking PC bullshit, that’s why!!

  113. Piett

    Hmm, I think people are being a tad too harsh on Obama. The problem he faced was that, if US forces stayed in Iraq indefinitely, the Iraqis would remain utterly dependent on the US.

    Every time some militant popped up, al-Maliki would say, “Look, over there, al Qaeda! Americans, why don’t you go and deal with that?” Meanwhile, the Iraqi armed forces remain useless and corrupt.

    Obama had to set a deadline for leaving, and then actually leave.

  114. Fisky

    No, Obama is not blameless. Obama unleashed the jihadist forces by demanding the overthrow of Mubarak and his replacement with the Muslim Brotherhood. He also, catastrophically, threatened a showdown with Assad and then chickened out. He has held a sword to Israel’s throat and demanded their capitulation. All of these things together flashed a green light at extremists and thugs all over the world, and now they are consuming territory at a rate of knots.

    I’m not arguing for “interventionism” in Bushian terms, but for armed assertiveness and prudence, basically picking your fights, as Reagan exemplified. That means never, ever rhetorically overreaching and then chickening out (and under no circumstances dancing with the Brotherhood – they are scum and must be eradicated).

  115. Fisky

    For example, “boots on the ground” is usually wrong, but we should be going Maximus on these fucking rodents in Iraq, raining hell on them from the air, and sending weapons to friendly forces like the Kurds.

  116. Fisky

    Also, launching a full-throated defence of President Sisi and congratulating him for executing the entire Muslim Brotherhood leadership, and making it clear that moral virtue is measured partly in the number of murderous Islamists who are executed.

  117. Piett

    Even before the fall of Mosul, the Iraqi forces had had logistical difficulties and been battered in their clash with Islamic extremists. …

    In the same period, 28 M-1 tanks were damaged and five tanks sustained full armor penetration by antitank guided missiles. ISIS, the administration official added, appears to have acquired Russian antitank weapons in Syria.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/13/world/middleeast/american-intelligence-officials-said-iraqi-military-had-been-in-decline.html

    That’s rather disturbing. I had assumed the M-1 was invulnerable to all but large aircraft- or helicopter-launched missiles, and possibly the latest Russian tank AP rounds.

    Presumably the Iraqis have an export version of the M-1, with lesser protection perhaps, but still, they shouldn’t be so vulnerable. Mk50, I’d be interested in any comment you have!

  118. Piett

    I’m not arguing for “interventionism” in Bushian terms, but for armed assertiveness and prudence, basically picking your fights, as Reagan exemplified. That means never, ever rhetorically overreaching and then chickening out.

    Heard of the 1983 bombing of the USMC barracks in Beirut? The US overreached, and then chickened out. Under Reagan. I think Reagan was the greatest statesman of the post-WW2 era, but it was hard, even for him, to make good policy in that damned region.

    For example, “boots on the ground” is usually wrong, but we should be going Maximus on these fucking rodents in Iraq, raining hell on them from the air, and sending weapons to friendly forces like the Kurds.

    Very much agreed.

    Also, launching a full-throated defence of President Sisi and congratulating him for executing the entire Muslim Brotherhood leadership, and making it clear that moral virtue is measured partly in the number of murderous Islamists who are executed.

    Not agreed. We can’t respond to evil by becoming evil ourselves. We can’t win a contest of viciousness. Certainly, trials for MB who have committed crimes, and full punishment for the guilty. But proper trials, not just kangaroo courts, like the ones under the Sisi regime appear to have been.

  119. twostix

    In other middle eastern news…

    Miliary records and sources reveal that on July 25, 2012, Taliban fighters in Kunar province successfully targeted a US Army CH-47 helicopter with a new generation Stinger missile. …

    Lodged in the right nacelle, [investigators] found one fragment that contained an entire serial number.

    The investigation took time. Arms were twisted, noses put out of joint. But when the results came back, they were stunning: The Stinger tracked back to a lot that had been signed out by the CIA recently, not during the anti-Soviet jihad.

    My sources in the US Special Operations community believe the Stinger fired against the Chinook was part of the same lot the CIA turned over to the Qataris in early 2011, weapons Hillary Rodham Clinton’s State Department intended for anti-Khadafy forces in Libya.

    They believe the Qataris delivered between 50 and 60 of those same Stingers to the Taliban in early 2012, and an additional 200 SA-24 Igla-S surface-to-air missiles.

    http://nypost.com/2014/06/08/how-the-taliban-got-their-hands-on-modern-us-missiles/

    Didn’t Obama just hand over those high level terrorists to Qatar too?

  120. Fisky

    Not agreed. We can’t respond to evil by becoming evil ourselves. We can’t win a contest of viciousness.

    In Australia, yes. But Egypt is a revolutionary situation, and you cannot follow due process in such scenarios. It’s more akin to a war, and in war, the enemy must be crushed.

  121. Robert Blair

    Viva:

    Robin Lane Fox takes some beating

    Agreed. He was the “go to” man for Alexander back in my day.

    However, he lost a lot of prestige by agreeing to associate himself with a dreadful Alexander movie (as “Historical Advisor”).
    And appeared in some promotional videos, after the movie was completed, and it was obvious how awful it was.

    Another good writer on Alexander, especially from the point you originally raised, is General J.F.C. Fuller.
    Fuller analyses Alexanders campaigns from a military technical point of view. He brings out some astonishing details.

  122. jupes

    Fisky

    The other day I wrote on another thread that I believed that Muslim immigration is bad for Australia. Your response was to try link me to a mass murderer.

    Here is some of what you have written on this thread:

    … they are scum and must be eradicated).

    … we should be going Maximus on these fucking rodents in Iraq …

    … launching a full-throated defence of President Sisi and congratulating him for executing the entire Muslim Brotherhood leadership, and making it clear that moral virtue is measured partly in the number of murderous Islamists who are executed.

    Now I agree with you on those points but let’s be clear, you are talking about killing Muslim terrorists. I’m sure you will agree with me that it would be bad for Australia to have any of these terrorists living in Australia. The thing is, apart from their weapons, these terrorists look the same as any other Muslim from that area. The best way to keep them out of Australia is to ban Islamic immigration.

  123. Rudiau

    Nobody Predicted What Would Happen in Iraq…Except This Guy

    “I know some in Washington would like us to start leaving Iraq now. To begin withdrawing before our commanders tell us we are ready would be dangerous for Iraq, for the region, and for the United States. It would mean surrendering the future of Iraq to al Qaeda. It would mean that we’d be risking mass killings on a horrific scale. It would mean we’d allow the terrorists to establish a safe haven in Iraq to replace the one they lost in Afghanistan. It would mean increasing the probability that American troops would have to return at some later date to confront an enemy that is even more dangerous.

    Former President George W. Bush’s office says he won’t weigh in, telling MailOnline that he has ‘decided not to criticize his successor’

    If you can’t say anything nice … best shut-up, hey.

  124. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Piett:

    Hmm, I think people are being a tad too harsh on Obama. The problem he faced was that, if US forces stayed in Iraq indefinitely, the Iraqis would remain utterly dependent on the US.

    This is a feature, not a bug. The US is in Korea 60+ years after the war ended, and in Europe 70 year on – why?

    Strategic necessity.

    The Iraqi Army fought reasonably well for a few years when it had the mostly psychological backing of US troops in country. Arab Armies are essentially worthless above the tribal level unless they have an ‘Imperial presence’ to shame them into performing well. The Ottomans knew this very well – Arab muslims have a primitive and barbarian ‘honour-shame’ culture (Arab Christians are much more culturally advanced, that’s what Christianity does).

    So the structure that the ‘stupid’ (according to lefties, remember when they called Bush a Chimp?) ‘Chimpster W Bushitler’ set up was designed to have a minimal number of US troops present long term, acting like a psychological prop for the Iraqi Army, and this worked well. The incontrovertible proof of that is in their performance in the field against the Sunni terrorists and Al Nusra for three years.

    This strategic structure was specifically designed to guarantee the security of 20% of the world’s oil, which, BTW, EUROPE and China use, not the USA.

    Then to borrow the left’s very own phraseology, the genuinely stupid Chimpster H Preshizzle (Paco™) and his assembled incompetence of drooling cretins dismantled Bush’s strategic structure. (Leftard squeals of waaaaaycism in 5,4,3,2…)

    This is the direct consequence of that action.

    Note that well. What is happening now is the DIRECT CONSEQUENCE of the genuinely stupid Chimpster H Preshizzle’s (Paco™) actions.

    And I can prove it.

    Becuase he’s trying to blame Bush.

    make no mistake, this is a seismic strategic event which will shape much of the world’s strategic issues for the rest of this century. Irrespective of lines on maps, we now have the following defacto situation:

    1. there is an emergent Sunni tribe-nation which is still defining its boundaries. This tribe-nation is a poisonous dystopian Hades run by ideological perverts even Al Qaeda thinks are too murderously extreme to deal with.

    2. Imperial Iran will extend itself west to encompass the Shia tribe-nation emerging now in southern Iraq and they will run this as a satrapy (the Persian Empire invented that word)

    3. Kurdistan is now a going concern and will rapidly establish boundaries from its capital at Kirkuk. The Iranians will deal with them because they buffer the new Sunni hell-state and threaten it from the north.

    4. The Saudi’s are the ones responsible for the development of the jihadi groups behind the new Sunni hell-state. The jihadis they created and nurtured for 60 years have now broken free of them. With the central Iraq oil fields, they no longer need Saudi support. Now they can eat the Saudis alive and take control of the muslim holy sites.

    5. The Shia know this, and will fight them. So very long erm saudi strategic incompetence looks like starting a sunni-shia religious war to rival the Thirty Years War. if that happens, the entire Middle east will dissolve into a giant Syria of communal violence. In the very long term, this might just be a good thing – the Thirty Years War resulted in the Westphalian Peace we still enjoy in Christendom 360 years later. But these guys are starting from a much more primitive cultural basis than they did in 1618, so I look on this as a highly unlikely outcome. Endless bloodshed is much more likely.

    IF (note the caveat) this nightmare happens, then Jupes is partially right. The remnant Christian populations in the Middle east will be butchered or at best, enslaved. Those should completely and totally displace all Middle Eastern muslims in our refugee programmes. bring in the victims fleeing death, not the perpetrators of the genocide.

    The genuinely stupid Chimpster H Preshizzle (Paco™) may well have done as much or more damage to Middle eastern Islam as Hitler did to European Jewry.

    He and his supporters must be SO proud.

  125. Crossie

    There’s nothing but trouble ahead here, we should stay well clear of it.

    Yep not worth a drop of Aussie blood or a cent of Aussie resources.

    Yes, and Abbott should stop shooting off his mouth about backing any unwise moves by Obama.

  126. Crossie

    ISIS are within a whisper of controlling 20% of the world’s oil. Riyadh’s leaders are watching everything they have deliberately built blow up in their face. Everything.

    I hope so. The Saudis are most responsible for where the ME is right now. Their money financed the virulent retreat to the seventh century Islam.

  127. sabrina

    Bush, Blair and Howard should have concentrated more on Afghanisthan rather than opening a new front in Iraq. Trying to impose democracy while the population are not ready is a futile exercise. Howard was a blind follower under any pretext. Apart from removing Saddam, the Iraq venture has achieved nothing, many innocent lives lost, many western lives lost.
    And where is Mr Shock and Awe?

  128. Crossie

    Obamas clocking up quite a foreign policy resume. Lost Iraq, lost Afghanistan, lost Libya, lost Egypt, lost Syria and you could argue lost the cold war. If I were the Japs id bomb pearl harbor.

    You forgot Crimea and soon to be followed by the entire Ukraine.

  129. Notafan

    The Australian reports this morning that Australian convert Musa Cerantonio is now under investigation by the AFP. Cerantonio is an an Isis supporter and, apparently, the fourth most popular Iman?, I think they meant on social media, in the world.
    Current whereabouts, the Phillipines, Syria and Iraq is for da youf aka cannon fodder.

  130. Robbo

    “The best way to keep them out of Australia is to ban Islamic immigration.”

    Jupes I totally agree with you on that. While I have never voted for anyone left of centre I can tell you that I will come out loudly barracking for any political party that stands up with a policy that bans those mad lunatics from entering Australia.

  131. jupes

    IF (note the caveat) this nightmare happens, then Jupes is partially right.

    Mk50 are you suggesting that if this nightmare doesn’t happen, then we should continue with our culturally blind, non-discriminatory immigration program?

    In other words, as long as the entire Middle East doesn’t dissolve into a giant Syria of communal violence, then we should just continue importing Muslims into Australia. What could possibly go wrong?

  132. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Nope.

    For the last 20 years I have consistently supported a ME refugee programme and immigration programme where we ONLY take those persons as refugees and immigrants from groups actively being persecuted in the ME. I have presented this view to the approriate Minister and my local member.

    Oddly enough, if followed, we’d only get Arab Christians from the ME.

    bear in mind that Muslims from South east Asia (SEA) are not an issue. The nature of islam there is completely different as it came into the region through the trade routes, and is an overlay on a very deep Buddhist and Hindu cultural substrate.

    The nature of islam in the ME is that it is a conquest ideology. This is not true in SEA.

  133. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Yes, and Abbott should stop shooting off his mouth about backing any unwise moves by Obama.

    Hahahahaha!

    I’ll bet Abbott had to stuggle to keep from laughing in the genuinely stupid Chimpster H Preshizzle’s (Paco™) face when the cretin said that.

    Not being The Lying Slapper, Abbott fully understands that Chimpster H Preshizzle (Paco™) is a complete idiot who says what his interlocutor wants to hear and what looks good right now as a soundbite for the next news bulletin. Chimpster H Preshizzle (Paco™) is utterly unable to comprehend anything outside domestic politics Chicago style, he’s good at that and at nothing else, which is why under his incompetence the strategic fabric of the post-Cold War era is currently collapsing.

    Still waiting for some leftard to squeal waaaaaycism for using their own description of Bush for the Shiz (Paco™). Could it be that even those dullards are too embarrassed by Chimpster H Preshizzle (Paco™) to defend him in any way?

  134. Mort

    MK50:

    ME refugee programme and immigration programme where we ONLY take those persons as refugees and immigrants from groups actively being persecuted in the ME

    Well said.

    Too bad it’ll never happen.

    Before this decade is out MK50, we might be seeing refugees from southern Africa being denied asylum in Australia on racial grounds.

  135. notafan

    ME Islam had a long, long history of conquest, plunder, enslave ,tax, conquest, plunder, enslave, tax,

    conquest, plunder, enslave, tax as the basis of their economies, I wonder what would have happened if they didn’t find oil in the ME. It isn’t even that long since the Ottoman empire was defeated.

    conquest ideology

  136. Alfonso

    ISIS in action.
    The Shia best develop some fight….

  137. Fisky

    IF (note the caveat) this nightmare happens, then Jupes is partially right. The remnant Christian populations in the Middle east will be butchered or at best, enslaved. Those should completely and totally displace all Middle Eastern muslims in our refugee programmes. bring in the victims fleeing death, not the perpetrators of the genocide.

    Australia must import a minimum 2 million Arab Christians, and settle them across marginal seats. This is a historic opportunity to smash Leftism forever.

  138. Gab

    Australia must import a minimum 2 million Arab Christians, and settle them across marginal seats. This is a historic opportunity to smash Leftism forever.

    So simple and yet quite brilliant when you think it through. Which is why it will never happen.

    You ought to suggest it to Morrison/Bishop though.

  139. Fisky

    Now I agree with you on those points but let’s be clear, you are talking about killing Muslim terrorists.

    That’s right, or better still, backing up local strongmen like President Sisi to give them hell.

    I’m sure you will agree with me that it would be bad for Australia to have any of these terrorists living in Australia.

    Uhuh.

    The thing is, apart from their weapons, these terrorists look the same as any other Muslim from that area. The best way to keep them out of Australia is to ban Islamic immigration.

    Yes, but you are effectively in the same camp as the LDP in that you are unable to describe the procedure by which you would ban Islamic immigration, as opposed to changing bureaucratic criteria in ways that overwhelmingly advantage skilled non-Muslims. It’s kinda important, because if you can’t say how your policy will work, then it’s done.

  140. Fisky

    (My reference to the LDP is about how they could not explain the enforcement mechanism that would follow the abolition of OSB)

  141. Fisky

    So simple and yet quite brilliant when you think it through. Which is why it will never happen.

    You ought to suggest it to Morrison/Bishop though.

    It is simple, but it requires a bit of creative thinking. I guess we could create a “religious persecution” category, and intensively interview each applicant to describe how they are persecuted on account of their religion. A Muslim would umm and uhh and sidestep the question, but a genuine Christian would be going into detail about how their cousin was literally crucified, and how their liquor store was shut down, etc.

  142. Gab

    I guess we could create a “religious persecution” category,

    It already exists but I get the impression from the former Labor governments that it only applies to muslims.

  143. Fisky

    I like the idea of temporarily dividing the humanitarian intake into two categories and no others – one for anti-totalitarian activitists (that’s to exclude Far Left extremists – a “political dissident” category would potentially bring in Left-wing opponents of Rightist governments, and we don’t want them at all), and another for people whose right to life on account of their religion is threatened (we’d have to word it carefully, otherwise we could get a lot of Burmese Muslims coming in rather than the target Arab Christian demographic). Then increase the quota dramatically and start re-engineering Australia’s demographics in ways that are permanently hostile to Leftism.

  144. Fisky

    It already exists

    I’m pretty sure it’s always been there since the UN Convention in some form, but I don’t know how it’s worded. It’s very important to drill down on the wording, and insert language there about being under threat of:
    -forced conversion
    -elimination on account of your religion

    No Muslims live under those threats anywhere, but if the existing category covers the usual dreary rubbish like “discrimination”, then of course they’ll be waved in.

  145. Gab

    You’re right, Fisky. This is how it reads now:

    The Refugees Convention defines a refugee as a person who:

    is outside their country of nationality or their usual country of residence
    is unable or unwilling to return or to seek the protection of that country due to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion
    is not a war criminal and has not committed any serious non-political crimes or acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

  146. Gab

    You’re on fire today, Fisky:

    -forced conversion
    -elimination on account of your religion

    No Muslims live under those threats anywhere, but if the existing category covers the usual dreary rubbish like “discrimination”, then of course they’ll be waved in.

    There is this caveat:

    The Refugees Convention does not oblige signatory countries to provide protection to people who do not fear persecution and have left their country of nationality or residence on the basis of war, famine, environmental collapse or in order to seek economic opportunities.

    By the end of the day I expect you’ll have rewritten on what basis people can apply for protection in Australia and then we can submit to the government. Perhaps a guest post here first?

  147. notafan

    Fisky I think Shias in a Sunni dominated country could argue that or vice versa (and it would be true btw)
    Lets just stick to 12,000 or 20,000 humanitarian places per year. I don’t trust UN prioritising anyhow, the UN is dominiated by the Arabs and the Third World. Didn’t they give us a lot of Africans who have not exactly done well here? We don’t know the bias these days in the Dept of Immigration but if they are into ‘diversity’ hiring I can bet there is some capacity for ‘diversity’ selection of immigrants too.
    Limit family reunion to minor children and have an only one imported wife ever policy and continue on with the skilled migration and business migration programmes with a strong emphasis on fluent English.
    We are very lucky to have OSB and be living on a big island. If we gave Christmas Island to Indonesia it would be even better.

  148. Fisky

    Fisky I think Shias in a Sunni dominated country could argue that or vice versa (and it would be true btw)

    There is a schismatic Muslim group in Pakistan (who aren’t considered as Muslims by Muslims) who would be under such a threat, but I don’t think Shias are under threat of forced conversion, because there’s nothing to convert them to! They’re already Muslim in every essential way.

    We have to be very careful about the wording, which is why “being under threat of forced conversion” should be considered an “essential” criterion for admission.

  149. Fisky

    How about…?

    A well-founded fear of:
    -forced conversion
    -elimination on account of your religion
    -restrictions on the open practice of your religion

    Gosh, this stuff is hard!

  150. Fisky

    So you could in theory create a couple of instruments (interview + written) to prioritise candidates who meet all three of the criteria, which Christians do, and put them right at the front of the queue. If there is any space left in the quota, then candidates (i.e. Muslims) who might meet one or two criteria could procedurally be considered, but only if the quota hasn’t been filled by candidates who meet all. Of course, if it looks like the number of Christian applicants is dwindling for some reason, we can just cut the quota.

  151. notafan

    Well you could probably include Druze and Alawites in that.
    Christians are forbidden under Sharia to build new chuches or repair churches, and can at any time be forced to convert or die, they can choose dhimmi taxes only at the behest of the Muslims. If there were laws like that in a country you might have a stronger case.
    An example of how things work atm is my understanding is that Turkish Kurds are not granted refugee status internationally if there is another part of Turkey they can safely go to under the current UN rules .
    On a country by country basis one would have to argue that there is no safe place for Christians in a country; say if Iraq were to split on tribal lines whereas Sunnis could move to a dominant Sunni region and Muslims could move to a dominant Shia region in the same country, they would not be eligible for refugee status, however Christians would.
    The trouble would be at the adminstrative level getting the outcome you want it terms of getting a Christians first outcome. You might know if the ‘right’ people were being refused but you wouldn’t know if the ‘wrong’ people were being accepted.
    It’s too late I think for Australia to have a Christian first policy. Perhaps if Christian groups were allowed to sponsor refugees on the basis that they supported them until they could get work ie no or minimal welfare. Everyone involved might be highly motivated then.

  152. Fisky

    Well you could probably include Druze and Alawites in that.

    No objection there. I’d welcome them.

    The trouble would be at the adminstrative level getting the outcome you want it terms of getting a Christians first outcome.

    No question about it. It’s very, very difficult. You would need to have some form of cross-monitoring procedure by officials based in other countries (who are therefore out of the sphere of influence of the local cadre) to review the work of local assessors/interviewers, with the power to reverse non-standard decisions.

    Perhaps if Christian groups were allowed to sponsor refugees on the basis that they supported them until they could get work ie no or minimal welfare.

    Having a sponsor could be another “point” towards the application, perhaps?

  153. jupes

    The nature of islam in the ME is that it is a conquest ideology. This is not true in SEA.

    Yeah nah. It is true that overall the nature of Islam in the ME is more violent than that in SEA, however it would be foolish to overlook that Muslims in certain areas of SEA are just as violent and adhere to the same totalitarian elements of Islam as their religious brothers further north.

    For example, Muslims in the southernmost four provinces of Thailand are currently using violence to take their areas by conquest. Over 4000 people have been murdered by them. Aceh used violence to gain a degree of autonomy from Jakarta and now has Sharia law including death by stoning for adultery. Muslims in Sulewisi have been known to behead Christian school girls to further their religious influence. And of course the SEA Muslim terrorist groups such as Jamah Islamia, Abu Sayef and MILF are cool with Muslim conquest ideology as well as murdering Kafirs as we well know.

    Now these groups aren’t currently on the ascendancy but who’s to know what the future holds. Islamic conquest ideology is Koranically correct Islam. Things could get ugly very quickly in SEA.

    Islam is violent, totalitarian ideology full stop. Best to keep it out of Australia.

  154. Gab

    Best to keep it out of Australia.

    Too late. We’re already heading down the same path as England.

  155. notafan

    I think Islam in the Philipinnes is in the same category.
    Fisky the government could choose I think to take a specific group of people, as it did with the Afghan interpreters. They could chose a group of Syrian Christians who have fled from an area under the control of ISIS as short term refugees. They have previously taken Syrians but I am not sure of the criteria on which they were chosen. Then if things pan out as we expect they could be settled here permanently.
    I know a lot of Christian groups help ‘refugees’ currently here with practical support, I’m sure they would be even more enthusiastic about ones who will be in church on Sunday. They could put their children in parochial schools or non-demon Christian primary schools.

  156. Fisky

    notafan, indeed, but we return to the question you indirectly posed earlier – WHO does the choosing, and using what instruments of assessment? We can’t just parachute your average Canberra bureaucrat into Damascus and expect them to be of any use in choosing refugees.

  157. notafan

    WHO does the choosing, and using what instruments of assessment

    Well I am thinking a decision made at the political level rather than the administrative level in relation to a bulk movement of a specific group of people.

  158. Fisky

    They have previously taken Syrians but I am not sure of the criteria on which they were chosen.

    I bet they chose a bunch of Sunni jihadists claiming “persecution” by Assad. Penny to a pound, that’s what happened. That’s why we need to change the definition of “persecution” along the lines I’ve suggested.

  159. jupes

    It’s kinda important, because if you can’t say how your policy will work, then it’s done.

    Well my solution is to simple ban Islamic immigration. You have brought up some valid criticisms of that policy and have suggested a few policies which would achieve a very similar outcome to mine, without the diplomatic problems my solution would produce.

    The problem is that as far as I can tell, while your solutions would result in a greater percentage of Christians, they would still result in the immigration of violent Muslims.

    For example you have no problems with Alawites immigrating. Bashi al-Assad is Alawite and no doubt many many of his regime are Alawite. If he goes down, I’m picking a few unsavoury Alawites will become refugees. Also if Christians can sponsor refugees, then so can Muslims.

    No, as far as I can see at some point the legislation has to mention Islam.

  160. notafan

    I had a look Fisky, the decision was made with the UNHCR so who knows?

  161. Fisky

    Well my solution is to simple ban Islamic immigration.

    Why yes! It’s so “simple”, I can’t believe I never thought of that myself! And exactly what instrument of assessment will you design to achieve that outcome?

    Visa Officer Jupes: Are you a Muslim?
    Mohammad al-Bin-Durka-Jihad (applicant): No, I’m not!
    VOJ: Oh…OK, I guess you’ve passed

    You have brought up some valid criticisms of that policy and have suggested a few policies which would achieve a very similar outcome to mine, without the diplomatic problems my solution would produce.

    Putting it another way, I’ve done all of the brainstorming in actually designing such a policy, and getting none of the credit.

    No, as far as I can see at some point the legislation has to mention Islam.

    If that’s what you think then please provide details of what changes you intend to make (such as changed wording of legislation, regulation, etc). This is not negotiable by the way, and I’m not interested in hearing more slogans like, “We should ban Islam!!!”. You have yet to contribute anything to understanding the practical application of your policy, but you’ve certainly proposed ideas that would cause a bureaucratic disaster of Ruddian proportions.

    You’re the Kevin Rudd of the anti-Islam movement.

  162. JC

    Australia must import a minimum 2 million Arab Christians, and settle them across marginal seats. This is a historic opportunity to smash Leftism forever.

    Wouldn’t that wipe the smile off a typical leftwing Q&A audience’s face.

  163. jupes

    And exactly what instrument of assessment will you design to achieve that outcome?

    Oh, so only people with experience of designing instruments of assessments can have an opinion on this blog. Who knew?

    You’re the Kevin Rudd of the anti-Islam movement.

    Good insult. Still you haven’t called me the Juliar Gillard of the anti-Islam movement so I guess there’s that.

    If that’s what you think then please provide details of what changes you intend to make (such as changed wording of legislation, regulation, etc).

    OK. How about this:

    A well-founded fear of:
    -forced conversion
    -elimination on account of your religion
    -restrictions on the open practice of your religion
    This does not apply to anyone whose religion also has the above traits.

    Or words to that effect. Another method would be to not accept any refugee who comes from a tribal culture. That could be a way to not mention Islam.

  164. Fisky

    Oh, so only people with experience of designing instruments of assessments can have an opinion on this blog. Who knew?

    No, because there are no doubt other topics on which I’m sure you would have an informed opinion. But if you are calling for changes to assessment criteria, then it is quite important that you know something about the field.

    Another method would be to not accept any refugee who comes from a tribal culture.

    No, that won’t work, because the application’s assessor would have to be provided a definition of “tribal culture” and a means of determining if/how the applicant conforms to that definition. If anything, it would reduce their ability to drill down on the sub-set of applicants that we do want.

    Also, by proposing something so utterly vague and undefined like “tribal culture” as a criterion, you have opened up a massive loophole for Leftist or sympathetic assessors to determine that the applicant is NOT from a tribal culture, thereby helping their application.

  165. Fisky

    The easiest expedient is just not to bother to open consulates in countries that we don’t wish to accept immigrants from, or to refuse to issue visas to nationals of those countries. Discrimination on the basis of nationality is the easiest form alive, and every country does it to a greater or lesser extent. Check out the “visa on arrival” categories applied by most of our SE Asian neighbours, and you’ll see exclusion lists covering most of Africa. Problem solved.

    Of course, we’d have to choose carefully, because it would be untenable for Australia to refuse to issue visas for our nearest neighbours such as Indonesia or Malaysia, but we could totally cut out Somalia, (North) Sudan and a lot of other countries in Africa at no cost to ourselves.

  166. Gab

    The easiest expedient is just not to bother to open consulates in countries that we don’t wish to accept immigrants from, or to refuse to issue visas to nationals of those countries.

    That would rule out any Copts or other Christians from applying here in that case.

  167. Fisky

    That would rule out any Copts or other Christians from applying here in that case.

    Yes, exactly. But Jupes is so obsessed with the idea of a single Muslim entering Australia that he would prefer to exclude thousands or even millions of Copts just to prevent that.

  168. Gab

    Well that’s like cutting your nose off to spite your face. There must be a better way, an even-handed way. Keep working on it, Fisky and I hope for a guest post from you on the matter in the near future.

  169. Viva

    Robert

    However, he lost a lot of prestige by agreeing to associate himself with a dreadful Alexander movie (as “Historical Advisor”).

    Apparently his fee was being allowed to ride as one of Alexander’s companion cavalry in the movie. I guess he thought that opportunity was worth it!

    http://www.archaeology.org/online/interviews/jpegs/fox1.jpeg

  170. Notafan

    Its true muslims could sponsor muslims but they should fail on other criteria ie there would a safe place in another region of the same country for them.
    There is no suggestion that Christians are perfect migrants or that from some regions they would not be tribal.
    I think if you framed a political decision to give preference to Christians, atheists and gays you might have a winner.

  171. Fisky

    Christians, atheists and gays

    Yes, and for extra cover I’d throw one of the sub-Muslim sects in there too, such as the Alawite or the Ahmadis of Pakistan, just to broaden things a little and draw more support.

  172. Notafan

    Alawite might be best as if Assad wins you wouldn’t actually have to take any.
    Alawite beliefs are quite interesting they may be descendants of Christians who had to pretend they were muslims and lost their way, less preferred theory, I understand or muslims who have incorporated Christian elements ie I believe they have a communion service of sorts.

  173. jupes

    But Jupes is so obsessed with the idea of a single Muslim entering Australia that he would prefer to exclude thousands or even millions of Copts just to prevent that.

    You just made that up.

    If anyone is obsessed here, it is you with me for some reason. Last week you were trying to link me with a mass murderer now you reckon you can read my mind.

    For the record I would gladly allow thousands of Copts here even if the odd Muslim slipped through. Of course it would be better if none get through however, it would be a much better outcome than the non-discriminatory policy we have now.

    My position is this: The more Muslims in society, the worse of you are. Immigration policy should aim to prevent Muslims immigrating here.

  174. Fisky

    Jupes – thank you for clarifying, but based on your previous statements and knowing your aversion to minor details like how a policy is actually going to work, it seemed reasonable to conclude that.

  175. Tel

    tomix: I agree that’s terrible stuff. Australia should be doing the humanitarian thing and opening up an intake for refugees being chased out of Syria, etc.

    The article you link to is quite anti-Turkish; that’s a bit unfair when Turkey has actually helped out more than we have. Yes, I know that the Armenian genocide was a nasty business but you can’t blame every modern Turk for that.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100253796/turkeys-response-to-the-syrian-refugee-crisis-has-been-little-short-of-heroic/

    Australia would have a lot of difficulty coping with 600,000 refugees all coming at the same time.

  176. tomix

    Tel: Australia would, because the 600,00 would have to be provided with a house and Welfare immediately, whereas the Turks may not be so welcoming, particularly if the refugees are Christian.

    Daniel Hannan is also a shill for Turkish membership of the EU, something his fellow Britons may not be so enthusiastic about.

  177. tomix

    On the question of helping out, why should Australia take any responsibility?

    Otoh, Turkey still hasn’t explained allegations that weapons were being sent from Libya to Turkey to supply the Syrian rebels.

  178. jupes

    Australia should be doing the humanitarian thing and opening up an intake for refugees being chased out of Syria, etc

    No we shouldn’t. Australia is a soveriegn nation not the benevolent society.

    We should only accept refugees if there is a benefit to Australia.

  179. JohnA

    Gab #1345457, posted on June 13, 2014 at 11:19 am

    If you read Wally Aly’s latest duplicitous and pathetic offering, you’d be hard pressed to figure out which religion is motivating this latest fiasco. Presbyterians perhaps? Oh yeah and it’s all the West’s fault.

    And as per this link to the Herald-sun article tonight, the religious leaders endorse military engagement.

    But we have never seen the Pope waving an Armalite, the Archbishop of Canterbury with a Beretta, or the Moderator-General of the Presbyterian Church blessing an M-16 in some Battle of the Denominations, have we?

    Religion of Peace? Not in the Middle East today. The real one started in Palestine a couple of thousand years ago and moved out.

  180. Fisky

    Australia’s demographics MUST be permanently and irreversibly altered by taking in as many Arab Christians as possible. I’d set a target of 500,000 to start.

  181. Fisky

    We must rub the Left’s noses in diversity by opening our borders to victims of jihadism everywhere.

  182. .

    jupes
    #1347205, posted on June 14, 2014 at 8:14 pm
    Australia should be doing the humanitarian thing and opening up an intake for refugees being chased out of Syria, etc

    No we shouldn’t. Australia is a soveriegn nation not the benevolent society.

    We should only accept refugees if there is a benefit to Australia.

    The SS St Louis repeats. What a horrible part of history.

    The benefit is that accepting genuine refugees makes the world a freer place.

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