Guest post. David Leyonhjelm: The truth about Australia’s gun control experiment

From The Fin Review Friday 13

Australians pride themselves on ‘telling it like it is’, but when it comes to gun laws, straight-shooting often takes a back seat to a determined effort at silencing debate.

In 1996, Australia passed some of the most restrictive gun laws in the western world. They included bans on self-loading rifles and self-loading and pump-action shotguns, universal gun registration and a taxpayer funded gun confiscation program costing over half a billion dollars. The ongoing costs of running the firearms registration systems are unknown but have been estimated at around $28 million per year, or $75,000 per day. That’s more than what the average Australian earns in a year.

For that price tag, any accountable democracy should expect to have a decent debate about its efficacy. But in Australia, debate about guns has been all but silenced. Anti-gun zealots, within and outside the halls of parliament, smugly try to convince the rest of the world that Australia’s model of firearms management has been a resounding success. ‘We saved lives!” they claim. “We stopped mass shootings!” they say.

To satisfy their conceit, they manipulate statistics to suit themselves and pretend that ‘the science is settled’. This is an outright lie. When you look at the real facts, it becomes very obvious that the Australian experiment with gun control is nowhere near as clear-cut as the gun prohibition lobby wants the world to believe.

There is a growing body of peer-reviewed research into the impacts of Australia’s 1996 gun laws. Some of it comes from anti-gun groups, some from pro-gun groups, and some from groups which have no personal connections to firearms one way or the other.

Using a range of different statistical methods and time periods, not a single one of these studies – not even the ones conducted by anti-gun affiliated researchers – has found a significant impact of the legislative changes on the pre-existing downward trend in firearm homicide. Firearm homicides were decreasing well before the laws were implemented, and the decline simply continued after the legislative changes.

This decline in Australia is not unique or unusual. At least two other Commonwealth countries (Canada and New Zealand) experienced similar or greater declines in deaths over the same time, even though those countries have far less restrictive gun laws than Australia.

The relationship between Australia’s gun laws and suicides is uncertain. Again, deaths were declining well before the legislative changes. Some studies find that the downward trend accelerated after the 1996 gun laws, while others find impacts only among certain age groups. Some research finds little evidence for any change, others show displacement from firearms to other methods (such as hanging).

Anti-gun lobbyists cherry-pick the statistics that suit them and ignore studies that do not fall into line with the story they desperately want to tell. The fairytale they prefer is that the gun laws have ‘saved 200 lives a year’, a claim based on laughably poor statistical modelling which produced estimates so ridiculous that they have been dismissed by Harvard researchers as ‘stretching credulity’. The scientific reality is there is no consensus whatsoever about firearm laws and suicide in Australia.

A claim you will often hear is that there have been no mass shootings since 1996, from which anti-gun lobbyists conclude that Australia’s gun laws have stopped mass shootings. But this is a half-truth. The full truth is that Australia’s close neighbour New Zealand – a country very similar to Australia in history, culture, and economic trends – has experienced an almost identical time period with no mass shooting events despite the ongoing widespread availability of the types of firearms Australia banned.
The absence of mass shootings in New Zealand despite having semi- automatic firearms does not seem to be a product of any pre-existing differences between the two countries. Studies taking into account the different numbers of people have found that mass shootings before 1996/1997 occurred at a comparable rate between countries. The inescapable conclusion is that something other than gun laws is likely to be driving the merciful absence of mass shooting events in both countries.

And yet, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary, the anti-gun lobby continues to promote untruths, unchallenged. Notwithstanding the massive price tag attached to Australia’s gun laws, proper debate is still not taking place. Despite the fact that other policies may be far more effective at saving lives, dissenting views about the gun laws are ridiculed and shrilly shouted down. Yes, the rest of the world can indeed learn a lesson from Australia’s gun control experiment. But that lesson is really not about gun laws. It is about the dangers of allowing lobbyists, politicians and the media to prevent a rational debate.

David Leyonhjelm is the Liberal Democrats’ Senator-elect for NSW.

See if you can beat 2,500 comments (Rafe)

This entry was posted in Rafe. Bookmark the permalink.

465 Responses to Guest post. David Leyonhjelm: The truth about Australia’s gun control experiment

  1. Oh come on

    Over the fold yet?

  2. Anne

    We conclusively established on a recent open forum that for all his faults, numbers isn’t a Stalinist.

    Aussie/Aliice/Johnny O’Keefe – whichever is the personality du jour.

    Even if he isn’t a Stalinist doesn’t mean he isn’t Stalin’s butt-boy.

    Logic is not your strong suit.

  3. Oh come on

    Ah good.

    The LDP didn’t spend all this time and effort being elected just so we can pretend to be the liberal party for 20 years. If you don’t like the LDP, don’t vote for us. David isn’t going to change, and LDP members do not want him to.

    Get your hand off it, Yobbo. You (we – I’m a member) were lucky to get in. I was hoping that next time we wouldn’t have to rely on luck to get elected. If the LDP’s attitude is anything like yours, I suppose I’m hoping in vain.

    It’s the economy, stupid.

  4. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    metal being easy to conceal, and all that

    Nobody ever knew where it came from, but one clearing sale, here in the Wild West, featured a World War Two vintage two pounder anti tank gun.

  5. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    What forum, Eddystone?

    I have seen NSW police get so silly as to charge someone because they found a single discharged primer on his floor where it had fallen after a cartridge was deprimed.

  6. lotocoti

    Once again, the figures support the simple reality that the more firearms there are in a society, the more people will be killed by them.

    Meanwhile, in the reality of those who aren’t simple:
    The number of registered guns in Australia:
    2001: 2,165,170
    2010: 2,675,785
    Annual deaths resulting from firearms in Australia:
    2001: 326
    2010: 224
    Half a million more registered guns, 102 fewer deaths.

  7. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    ZK2A. Somehow, I’d have fitted it into the boot.

    In fact, I’d have rung a mate of mine. He collects artillery. Has an amazing minenwerfer collection.

  8. Eddystone

    Australian Hunting Net.

    There are reports from NSW and WA, IIRC, about crackdowns on illegal guns.

    I’m sure the other States are in on it too.

  9. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Locototi, that’s a second explosive jocks soiling for Numbers in one day! He’s going to run out of trousers soon at this rate.

  10. Eddystone

    Half a million more registered guns, 102 fewer deaths.

    The answer will still be baaaaaa.

  11. boy on a bike

    Gee, I seem to have missed half the fun.

    If semi-auto firearms were causing so much mischief, crime, mayhem and murder, then their removal should allow:

    1. Steep reduction in Police budgets and manpower (because of all the crime being committed with semi-autos that will no longer exist)
    2. Steep reduction or elimination of government funding of suicide hotlines, because people are no longer able to double tap themselves with a semi-auto
    3. Disbandment of specialist police squads like the middle eastern crime squad because crims can no longer acquire semi-auto firearms legally
    4. Reduction in homicide squad manpower and budgets due to the drop in murders
    5. Reduction in jail numbers and budgets
    6. Reduction in domestic violence support units and budgets, since nasty violent men are no longer able to threaten their womenfolk with semi-auto firearms
    7. Demilitarization of the Police forces – disposal of bullet proof vests and helmets, removal of military-style firearms from Police armories, disbandment of SWAT-style units

    I am sure other Cats can think of other tests that would prove whether removing semi’s has produced the proclaimed benefits.

  12. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    BoaB.

    Three.

    Three sets of trousers numbers has blown the arse out of.

  13. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Eddystone

    Yep, looks like it. Just in time for next year’s budget arguments.

    Funny that, eh?

    Like you, I don’t have any, who needs the hassle? No need to for the shooting I do anyway, and I never have liked pistols. I cover the whole game-spectrum range with what I have and have the oldies for fun plinking at the range.

    That ‘law abiding’ bit is something the bed-wetters simply do not understand. I think it’s projection. They care not a fig for the law, and so automatically assume everyone else is just like them.

  14. do we allow guns into the community and if the experiment fails then be confronted with the nearly impossible task of rectifying the damage caused if that is what the evidence eventually supports?

    News bulletin princess:
    What do you think those religion of peace members are using in all those drive-by…er.. pie throwings in Sydney? Meat pies? with peas perhaps?

    There are guns aplenty now. I’m a law abiding citizen, I am prepared to go to some extreme lengths to avoid a criminal conviction. Thus I won’t own guns illegally. However guns are easy enough to buy/obtain.
    I could have any number of rifles, pistols etc, including lots that have never been legally obtainable in Australia.

    If I made up my mind to shoot someone to death……. do you think the fact that I’d have to use an illegally obtained gun is really going to bother me?

  15. Max

    I seriously wonder if David Leyonhjelm is not a saboteur for the Libertarian cause in this country.

    1st post Wanting to flood the country with drugs, (with no thought to the unintended consequences)
    2nd post Wanting to flood the country with immigrants, buying and selling Australian citizenship (with no thought to the unintended consequences)
    3rd post Wanting to flood the country with guns (with no thought to the unintended consequences)

    Why not just stick to cutting taxes Fuckstick!

  16. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    SATP

    very true. Black sheep of the family (MUA member – shudder) tells me that some MUA types gave some… intriguing stuff to certain state police about what was going on in a port. They knew something was up, as a new 9mm Glock had more than halved in price over six months and there was no waiting time to get one.

    Even the MUA has decent people in it.

    Those asked to explain themselves had funny names. A lot seem to start with M and end with ohammad.

  17. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Is max a sockpuppet for Numbers, or is he just bonkers?

    Honestly, I prefer Ren.

  18. Anne

    At least Ren was sweet. Crazy but sweet.

  19. we should be looking at countries with a lower rate of firearm fatalities than our own, and adopting their measures if we are fair dinkum about public safety. We could start with Japan, which has a rate 297 times lower than the US and 14 times lower than ours.

    How is that Japanese suicide rate, by the way?

  20. Eddystone

    This is what we are missing out on.

    Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot 2014.

    SAPOL would be curled up in the foetal position if we had that here.

  21. Of course, if there were no blacks in the US the murder by firearm numbers would halve.

    That’s racism, not data.

    Hmm, welll…. okay… how’s the data on the firearm crime in mid-west farming country? Where jist about everybody is white & armed to the teeth?

    What with all the firearms they got, and what with arguments over hog prices & which whiskey is better, those corn & sunflower growers must be slaughtering each other faster than water goes over Niagara Falls?

    Aren’t they?

  22. If you can shoot straight you don’t need a semi-auto.

    If you can ride a bicycle you don’t need a great big car with internal combustion engine.

    Next question!

  23. Mater

    Sorry, bad link.
    Try this

  24. .

    So Max wants a low tax society with a small government that regulates us more heavily than we are regulated now.

    I don’t think he has thought this through.

  25. oldsalt

    Lotocoti your stats just show the status quo is working and doesn’t need to be changed. Howard’s system whether by design or luck suits the nation at this point in time. So where’s the argument for changing it? Those who need an occupational licence can still get one, those who shoot for fun can still do it. Where’s the problem?

  26. Eddystone

    Where’s the problem?

    Personally I think it is a problem having laws that do nothing except absorb lots of resources, sour relations between law abiding people and police, expose said people to severe penalties for breaching pointless regulations, prevent people from having the means to protect themselves from violent criminals, ease the path for a future gun confiscation, and about which the public is being misled.

    Apart from that, no problem.

  27. Oh come on

    It is true that anti gun lobbyists misuse evidence. But is there really a need for evidence in the case of such a policy area?

    You probably want to go back to trials by ordeal, too. Who needs evidence?

    This is perhaps the weakest, most pitiably pathetic argument I’ve seen put forth ’round these parts in recent times. And that takes some doing, considering the colossally obtuse brainfarts that emanate from the deadset knuckle-dragging drooling inbreds who make up the site’s troll gallery. Your competition. You sure showed them – congratulations!

    I am a libertarian

    No, you’re not. A libertarian wouldn’t care about the private matters of other law-abiding citizens.

    and conservative

    Hi, Alan!

    Now sling your hook. Your foray into trollery has failed badly.

  28. Eddystone

    There is currently an Australia wide police operation, Operation Unification, to “crack down” on illegal firearms.

    Here in Don Dunnistan, SAPOL is citing a murder case where a stolen firearm was used by a low life to kill his partner. I presume this is the only such case they have to cite, certainly we would hear about it if there were lots of such cases.

    There are about 250 firearms stolen in SA each year, from over 270,000 registered firearms, about 0.09%.

    This is their focus in trying to get illegal guns off the street.

    “Stealing weapons from registered owners is our greatest concern. About 1500 firearms are stolen across Australia each year, approximately 250 of these thefts happen in South Australia,” AC Dickson said.
    “Interestingly two-thirds of those stolen are from regional areas. And that’s why we are urging lawful gun owners to take stock of their storage facilities, to ensure they are as safe and comply with the Firearms Act and Regulations.
    “Over the next two weeks police will conduct security compliance checks throughout the State. Firearms that are not safely stored are at serious risk of being targeted by criminals.

  29. wreckage

    The Japanese prove conclusively that loosening gun laws reduces suicides.

  30. oldsalt

    Is that your personal experience Eddystone? Because mine is that when I’ve really needed a gun, in this country, it would’ve been as useless as tits on a boarpig.

    The violent crims that really worry me are the maddies who give no warning of what they’re about to do. No gun nor martial arts will help you if you’re kinghit from behind because you accidentally made eye contact and set off a chain reaction of misprocessed signals in the guy’s brain. If he gets his best shot in first you’re fucked.

    And that’s why Hilali, a sly disingenuous prick in many respects, wasn’t entirely wrong to remind women that what they wear out to certain places can be dangerous.

    Maddie with personality disorder gets outta jail, goes to a bar, sees scantily dressed lady and misprocesses the signals, thinks ‘she wants me -she led me on,’ and suchlike. Who wouldn’t warn his daughter about these guys? There probably aren’t too many of them but they do exist and it’s best to avoid places they may go and do what you can to avoid sending signals that could be misinterpreted.

    I know, It’s not FAIR and it’s sexist etc etc

  31. Tel

    Stealing weapons from registered owners is our greatest concern. About 1500 firearms are stolen across Australia each year, approximately 250 of these thefts happen in South Australia,

    I remember hearing a statistic that a lot of those were stolen from security companies. You have a situation where guards store their weapons on company grounds and a lot of people know where the key is.

    In all my years doing tech work, I’ve never seen such unreliable equipment as video surveillance recorders… which is interesting because there’s nothing much different inside compared to, say, a phone system and those almost never break down.

    I’m sure there were even a few cases where guns were stolen from police stations.

  32. Anne

    Apropos the perceived neglect of the LDP to address the really important issues, taxation and regulation, I’ve just received this.

    [The LDP is going to be exhibiting at the inaugural Explore Australia Expo to be held from Friday 20th June to Sunday 22nd of June at the Melbourne Showgrounds.

    The LDP will be there to promote our policies in relation to outdoor recreation activities with the aim of signing... up members. This will be our last event before we submit our application to the Victorian Electoral Commission so we are able to run candidates in the State Election...

    I am looking for volunteers to man the LDP stall on Saturday morning and afternoon, and Sunday morning and afternoon. ... The best way to prepare yourself is to make sure you are familiar with the LDPs environment, traffic, firearms and motorcycle laws. ]

  33. Wozzup

    Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license. I realized a number of years ago that I had little in common with many other shooters who argued that they felt it was their birth right to own assault rifles and other fully automatic weapons and who saw a few score deaths each year as a small price to pay for their “right” to bear arms. (As that prick stated in the USA in the aftermath of the most recent outrage to those parents who had lost children “Your tragedy does not trump my rights” or words to that effect.) Sorry I simply cannot agree and state again that in a free and democratic society like Australia we do not need deadly weapons to be readily available to all and sundry. And certainly not, for instance, for the reason offered by many shooters in the US – that they need firearms to protect themselves from the “govmint” – or is it the “revenuers”. (Jesus talk about duelling banjos and Deliverance). I was always under the misapprehension that that is what voting and elections was designed for. And given that the murder rate by firearms in Australia is a tiny tiny fraction of what it is on the good ole US of A do people REALLY believe that Australia would be a safer place if everyone who wanted to, owned firearms. Of course not. Yes a few people get killed here each year with guns. Better this than the many thousand per year in countries like the USA where free gun ownership combines with a culture of “rugged individualism” to see thousands killed each year. God spare us from ever ending up like USA. I accept that the question of the relationship between gun ownership, national culture , criminality and other factors is more complex than the anti gun lobby would have you believe. But I would not trust about 50% of the dip sticks I see on the streets of any city in Australia to walk around with a pointy toothbrush in their possession, let alone an assault weapon or handgun – both of which I have used on many occasions, incidentally. So no matter what you think of me I am not an ill informed, touchy-feely, leftist theoriser. I have used guns and know what they can do. Which is one further reason I think that freedom to own guns is insane especially in a country like Australia which is highly urbanised. You want agun – go and join a gun club and accept that there are restrictions on which guns you can own for your own safety and that of your family as much as anyone elses.

  34. Infidel Tiger

    If there is anything worse than a concern troll it must involve vegetarian food and sandpaper.

  35. rebel with cause

    … spare us from ever ending up like USA.

    Yes because Australia, pre-Howard’s gun laws, was exactly like the USA.

  36. Aristogeiton

    I’M A LIBERERIAN BUT THEIS IS TEA PARTY POLITEICS AND YOU HAVE 2 GET THE BALANCE RITE DO YOYU WANT TO BE THE US LIKE TEHEIR TEAP ARTY? TOO MUCH FREEDOMS IS SLAVERY! THE LDP ARE LUNATEICS!

  37. rebel with cause

    You’ve got to love how the left continues to invoke America as a bogeyman on almost every policy issue: ‘see that, the richest civilisation that ever lived, you don’t want to be like them, right?’.

  38. So no matter what you think of me I am not an ill informed, touchy-feely, leftist theoriser. I have used guns and know what they can do. Which is one further reason I think that freedom to own guns is insane especially in a country like Australia which is highly urbanised. You want agun – go and join a gun club and accept that there are restrictions on which guns you can own for your own safety and that of your family as much as anyone elses.

    Some common sense from an individual who respects rather than worships firearms.

    It’s interesting that there are plenty of gun owners who aren’t fundamentally insecure and believe they need to carry a firearm to affirm their masculinity.

    Occasionally they post here, and sanity reigns.

  39. So where’s the argument for changing it? Those who need an occupational licence can still get one, those who shoot for fun can still do it. Where’s the problem?

    The problem is paranoia for profit.
    Eight out of ten of the world’s leading arms manufacturers are located in the USA.
    Hence the NRA.
    They don’t give a stuff about liberty.
    Their protestations to that effect are a smokescreen for their lobbying activity.
    But they do rate the almighty dollar.

  40. Mater

    Can someone please point me to a mass shooting which involved a semi-automatic .22 (preferably not one involving Rabbits, Hares, Foxes or Mice)?

  41. .

    No gun nor martial arts will help you if you’re kinghit from behind because you accidentally made eye contact and set off a chain reaction of misprocessed signals in the guy’s brain. If he gets his best shot in first you’re fucked.

    Unlikely. Most people couldn’t hit someone full force without hurting themselves. Much in the same way most people could do very little damage with a gun.

    Hence the NRA.
    They don’t give a stuff about liberty.

    Except that they do?

    Areas without drug war related murders that have concealed carry are much safer than most of Australia. This is a fact, mot opinion.

  42. .

    Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    Thanks.

    Next. I can now ignore everything else you say.

    My opinions are based on facts. Get stuffed.

  43. Wozzup

    ” Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    Thanks.

    Next. I can now ignore everything else you say.

    My opinions are based on facts. Get stuffed.”

    That’s perfectly all right dear chap. After all I have ignored everything you have said.

  44. So no matter what you think of me I am not an ill informed, touchy-feely, leftist theoriser.

    It’s always a bit sad when people who contribute to the Cat actually worry about what other people on the Cat think of them, and feel compelled to say this out loud.

    The nice thing about the interweb thingummy is that it actually doesn’t matter who you are.

    I, for example, am actually a sixteen-stone, 54 year old black man who lives in Florida. I enjoy playing golf, and when I vote, I usually vote Democrat, but I have time on my hands, and Second Life just didn’t do it for me.

    So I said to myself, ‘George’, I said, ‘who would you rather be – a boring middle-aged black guy who does other people’s accounts, or do you want to be someone completely different? And I mean, completely different?’

    That’s how ‘Philippa Martyr’ was created.

  45. .

    That’s perfectly all right dear chap. After all I have ignored everything you have said.

    So you come here to tell us we’re nasty rednecks that made you give up your guns, with no intention of ever wanting a reply?

    LOL

    What total bullshit. Those nasty freedom loving libertarians with their evidence based policy made you sad and give up your guns.

  46. Tom

    Sadly, it won’t make it onto the CatallaxyComments troll file at Twitter, Philippa.

    Possibly a weekly or monthly winner of the interwebs.

  47. That’s OK, Tom.

    And you can call me ‘George’, if you like.

  48. .

    Shut up George, you lazy, Obama loving twit.

  49. Aristogeiton

    oldsalt
    #1349695, posted on June 17, 2014 at 12:35 am
    Is that your personal experience Eddystone? Because mine is that when I’ve really needed a gun, in this country, it would’ve been as useless as tits on a boarpig.

    City dweller?

    The violent crims that really worry me are the maddies who give no warning of what they’re about to do. No gun nor martial arts will help you if you’re kinghit from behind because you accidentally made eye contact and set off a chain reaction of misprocessed signals in the guy’s brain. If he gets his best shot in first you’re fucked.

    If you can handle yourself, it’s not going to help you if you don’t keep an eye on those around you, their body language, and manage their distance from you and those you love.

    And that’s why Hilali, a sly disingenuous prick in many respects, wasn’t entirely wrong to remind women that what they wear out to certain places can be dangerous.

    Maddie with personality disorder gets outta jail, goes to a bar, sees scantily dressed lady and misprocesses the signals, thinks ‘she wants me -she led me on,’ and suchlike. Who wouldn’t warn his daughter about these guys? There probably aren’t too many of them but they do exist and it’s best to avoid places they may go and do what you can to avoid sending signals that could be misinterpreted.

    I know, It’s not FAIR and it’s sexist etc etc

    Sure. Don’t go drinking at Fitzy’s if you don’t want a fight. Don’t dress like a tramp if you don’t want unwanted attention.

    Let’s be real, though. This dribbling nonsense has nothing at all to do with gun control.

  50. Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    Someone you don’t like owns a gun, so you give up shooting and turn in your right to own a gun?

    Que?

  51. I, for example, am actually a sixteen-stone, 54 year old black man who lives in Florida. I enjoy playing golf, and when I vote, I usually vote Democrat, but I have time on my hands, and Second Life just didn’t do it for me.

    And I (for another example) am a slim & attractive ethnic chinese female, with a lovely smile and a degree from a prestigious university. I love shopping for clothes and especially shoes.
    When online in my real identity I grew tired of men hitting on me (non-stop) so changed to a more stereotypical identity. Now life is easier.

  52. Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    What bothers me is the thought that these individuals actually believe that possessing a firearm actually elevates them to some kind of special status.

    I think it’s called compensation.

  53. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1350223, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:08 pm
    [...]
    What bothers me is the thought that these individuals actually believe that possessing a firearm actually elevates them to some kind of special status.

    I think it’s called compensation.

    What bothers you is your bedwetting incontinence ,which sets in whenever others have liberties you would seek to deny them.

  54. What bothers you is your bedwetting incontinence ,which sets in whenever others have liberties you would seek to deny them.

    Obviously, I was wrong.
    It’s actually urolagnia……….

  55. Shut up George, you lazy, Obama loving twit.

    That’s OK, Cynthia.

  56. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1350234, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:21 pm
    [...]
    Obviously, I was wrong.
    It’s actually urolagnia……….

    You’re a sickening little fuck, Numbers.

  57. Gab

    You’re a sickening little fuck, Numbers.

    yes, he is and best ignored.

  58. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1350242, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:29 pm
    You’re a sickening little fuck, Numbers.

    yes, he is and best ignored.

    Thanks Gab. Good advice.

  59. Wozzup

    ” Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    Someone you don’t like owns a gun, so you give up shooting and turn in your right to own a gun?

    Que?”

    Not actually so.

    (1) It was not just “someone” – it was most shooters I met. Too many of them (but of course not all – some were nice guys) were yahoos, obsessed with their “right to own arms” or how they could fire a 44 magnum with a hot load or some such tosh. Not many of them hunted (hunting I suppose I could understand) most just came to the range to brag about their latest fire arms acquisition. Sorry but that’s how they were.

    (2) I have never actually thought I had a right to own a weapon. Owning a weapon was and is a privilege in our society not a right. And that’s how it should be. The few always ruin it for the many. As is the case with those who abuse their firearm owning privilege. And since you cant tell in advance which ones are going to go crazy and blow a half a bus load of people away because they looked at them then all firearm owners suffer. And that’s how it should be! Because their lives should trump your so called right to bear arms.

    (3) Quite apart from that I noticed that being around firearms created a kind of paranoia that I did not like. It was quite noticeable that people who owned firearms (myself included) became absolutely convinced that they needed them to protect themselves and their families. The reasoning ran like this. I need my guns to protect myself from other people. What other people you ask? Why, the other people who own guns of course! Well why do they need guns? Well – to protect themselves from yet more people who own guns naturally. So lets see. I own guns to defend myself from other people who own guns to defend themselves from me. Sounds very like what used to be called MAD – mutually assured destruction. A vicious cycle. An arms race. Not a very sound basis for building a civil society.

    So I chucked it in. As I say, its not a right. And its not a right I want either – for me and for everyone else in this country who thinks having a deadly weapon somehow makes them a better man. But for those who want to join a gun club and accept the restrictions and responsibilities that go with it I don’t really mind, I think that’s a reasonable compromise.

  60. Aristogeiton

    Wozzup
    #1350248, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:35 pm
    ” Its the aggressive, uncompromising, red neck attitudes that are too often being proudly displayed in this particular thread that made me give up shooting competitively, sell my guns and relinquish my shooter’s license.

    Someone you don’t like owns a gun, so you give up shooting and turn in your right to own a gun?
    Que?”

    Not actually so.

    (1) It was not just “someone” – it was most shooters I met. Too many of them (but of course not all – some were nice guys) were yahoos, obsessed with their “right to own arms” or how they could fire a 44 magnum with a hot load or some such tosh. Not many of them hunted (hunting I suppose I could understand) most just came to the range to brag about their latest fire arms acquisition. Sorry but that’s how they were.

    (2) I have never actually thought I had a right to own a weapon. Owning a weapon was and is a privilege in our society not a right. And that’s how it should be. The few always ruin it for the many. As is the case with those who abuse their firearm owning privilege. And since you cant tell in advance which ones are going to go crazy and blow a half a bus load of people away because they looked at them then all firearm owners suffer. And that’s how it should be! Because their lives should trump your so called right to bear arms.

    (3) Quite apart from that I noticed that being around firearms created a kind of paranoia that I did not like. It was quite noticeable that people who owned firearms (myself included) became absolutely convinced that they needed them to protect themselves and their families. The reasoning ran like this. I need my guns to protect myself from other people. What other people you ask? Why, the other people who own guns of course! Well why do they need guns? Well – to protect themselves from yet more people who own guns naturally. So lets see. I own guns to defend myself from other people who own guns to defend themselves from me. Sounds very like what used to be called MAD – mutually assured destruction. A vicious cycle. An arms race. Not a very sound basis for building a civil society.

    So I chucked it in. As I say, its not a right. And its not a right I want either – for me and for everyone else in this country who thinks having a deadly weapon somehow makes them a better man. But for those who want to join a gun club and accept the restrictions and responsibilities that go with it I don’t really mind, I think that’s a reasonable compromise.

    You’ve got problems son. Perhaps it is best you don’t own a gun.

  61. Aristogeiton

    I love the assumptions that:

    1) individuals who own legal firearms commit violent firearms offences; and
    2) that the only group who commit violent firearms offences own these weapons legally.

    Because voluntarily disarming will make the criminals think twice about owning firearms, right?

    Also, ‘bragging’ about a weapons purchase done by a firearms enthusiast is an evil that must be stopped.

  62. 1735099

    You’ve got problems son

    No – he’s pretty sane.
    He also doesn’t resort to ad hom abuse as a substitute for common sense.
    The majority of gun owners are solid citizens.
    A minority are absolute wankers. Some of them get their Glibertarian naivety mixed up with their obsessional fantasies and post here……

  63. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1350261, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:49 pm
    You’ve got problems son

    No – he’s pretty sane.

    Well there’s a ringing endorsement.

  64. rebel with cause

    Steve – that’s not quite right. After Wozza decided that all gun owners including him/herself, were dangerous ‘rednecks’, Wozza became an arms dealer and sold all their firearms. I don’t know how you sleep at night Woz.

  65. Wozzup

    Aristogeiton

    Funny you should say this. The way your semi articulate abuse and foul language takes the place of reasoned discussion and debate I was thinking exactly the same about you. Still its pretty much what I have come to expect from the gun lobby but the question remains how on EARTH do you think you have emotional IQ to own a deadly weapon. Anyway your attitude kind of proves my point about why I gave up being involved in shooting sports – there were just too many people like you. Still maybe one day you will grow up, mature and learn to discuss things like and adult rather than an immature prepubescent.

  66. john constantine

    in victoria, about a decade or so ago, the vicpol went through a phase where coppers were suiciding with police issue handguns.

    i did have one ‘stress leave candidate’ sitting in the passenger seat of my vehicle quite a while ago, playing with his gun, telling me that he didn’t have a friend in the world, and that if he shot himself in my ute, the mess would go everywhere, and i would go down as a cop killer.

    it was three o’clock in the morning, he had staked out my house, and i would have blown three or four times the limit, so my negotiating skills were handicapped.

    suicide by police issue handgun isn’t widely reported nowadays, so they have got the issue solved, or have stopped reporting it.

    [whole other issue of the glaring unsuitability of expecting all cops to do all copper jobs, to toughen 'em up. some blokes can do the door knocks to give bad news, some can't, some can cut down hanging suicides, some can't, a bit of specialising might mean that more coppers work a full year, instead of having stress leave.]

  67. I noticed that being around firearms created a kind of paranoia that I did not like. It was quite noticeable that people who owned firearms (myself included) became absolutely convinced that they needed them to protect themselves and their families. The reasoning ran like this. I need my guns to protect myself from other people. What other people you ask? Why, the other people who own guns of course! Well why do they need guns? Well – to protect themselves from yet more people who own guns naturally. So lets see. I own guns to defend myself from other people who own guns to defend themselves from me. Sounds very like what used to be called MAD – mutually assured destruction.

    Wozzup has problems alright. Not only guns, but I hope sharp objects, fire ignition implements, etc. are kept well away from.

  68. Aristogeiton

    Wozzup
    #1350268, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:53 pm
    Aristogeiton

    Funny you should say this. The way your semi articulate abuse and foul language takes the place of reasoned discussion and debate I was thinking exactly the same about you. Still its pretty much what I have come to expect from the gun lobby but the question remains how on EARTH do you think you have emotional IQ to own a deadly weapon. Anyway your attitude kind of proves my point about why I gave up being involved in shooting sports – there were just too many people like you. Still maybe one day you will grow up, mature and learn to discuss things like and adult rather than an immature prepubescent.

    Lol. I’m a member of the ‘gun lobby’ now? Boo hoo. You decided to smear all shooters as rednecks, and outed yourself as an unbalanced individual. This is ‘reasoning’ where you are from? Did you expect a pat on the back?

    Also, I have plenty of foul abuse to go around for all the enemies of freedom who post here. Don’t think you’re special.

  69. 1735099

    There were very few “gun enthusiasts” in my rifle section.
    Those that could be described this way on arrival in country lost their enthusiasm after the first contact.
    Having said that, we felt vulnerable separated from our weapons on leave in country, and on RTA.
    That didn’t last long, but it helped put the bloody things in perspective.
    On operations, our personal weapons were an absolutely necessary evil.
    Not to have to carry one on RTA was a blessed relief.

  70. Aristogeiton

    The prize goes to Numbers:

    1735099
    #1350223, posted on June 17, 2014 at 4:08 pm
    [...]
    I think it’s called compensation.

    Wherein he argues that shooters have small willies. Such reason! Such flawless argumentation!

  71. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1350278, posted on June 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm
    There were very few “gun enthusiasts” in my rifle section.
    Those that could be described this way on arrival in country lost their enthusiasm after the first contact.
    Having said that, we felt vulnerable separated from our weapons on leave in country, and on RTA.
    That didn’t last long, but it helped put the bloody things in perspective.
    On operations, our personal weapons were an absolutely necessary evil.
    Not to have to carry one on RTA was a blessed relief.

    Numbers brings up Vietnam, again.

  72. Wherein he argues that shooters have small willies. Such reason! Such flawless argumentation!

    It has taken longer than usual, probably due to there being only a couple of anti-gun crazies on this thread, but they usually get around to their main topic.

    Lord knows why, but anti-gun types seem to have an obsession with penis size.

  73. Aristogeiton

    Steve at the Pub
    #1350282, posted on June 17, 2014 at 5:09 pm
    Wherein he argues that shooters have small willies. Such reason! Such flawless argumentation!

    It has taken longer than usual, probably due to there being only a couple of anti-gun crazies on this thread, but they usually get around to their main topic.

    Lord knows why, but anti-gun types seem to have an obsession with penis size.

    The phallic connotation of the firearm disturbs them in ways they cannot quite fathom. Hopefully banning the things will quiet these uncomfortable feelings.

  74. Empire

    (2) I have never actually thought I had a right to own a weapon car. Owning a weapon car was and is a privilege in our society not a right. And that’s how it should be. The few always ruin it for the many. As is the case with those who abuse their firearm car owning privilege. And since you cant tell in advance which ones are going to go crazy and blow t-bone a half a bus load of people away because they looked at them were texting then all firearm car owners suffer. And that’s how it should be! Because their lives should trump your so called right to bear arms drive.

    There’s no law prohibiting a visceral hatred of freedom, but those who do (hate freedom) should expect ridicule from those who don’t.

    Bob hates freedom because he suffers from tertiary leftism. His totalitarianism is malady. Sadly, there is no known cure.

    What’s your caper wozzup?

  75. Bob hates freedom because he suffers from tertiary leftism. His totalitarianism is malady. Sadly, there is no known cure.

    This be a firearm discussion thread?

  76. Roger

    Mater
    #1350022, posted on June 17, 2014 at 12:53 pm
    Can someone please point me to a mass shooting which involved a semi-automatic .22

    Didn’t Julian Knight use one at Hoddle St.?

  77. 1735099

    Numbers brings up Vietnam again

    The topic is firearm regulation. The reference to military service (which involved carrying a firearm 24/7) is relevant.

    The phallic connotation is all yours.

    “Compensation” is a general term in psychology. It’s not specific to the meaning you’ve attached.
    That meaning comes straight from the dark recesses of your imagination.

  78. Empire

    This be a firearm discussion thread?

    Kind of. The post is about the futility of gun control. Gun control is a totalitarian’s wet dream. What’s your point SATP?

  79. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Didn’t Julian Knight use one at Hoddle St?

    One of the guns used was a .22 semi – automatic Ruger, the others were a Mossberg shotgun, and a 7.62mm M14.

  80. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Wozzupimself the concern troll:
    So pre-1996 we operated under the US Constitution and their Second Amendment? Who knew? So because an American said “Your tragedy does not trump my rights” (which is actually a true statement under their Constitution), firearms should be restricted in Australia.

    M’kay.

    What colour is the sky on your planet?

    Our pet Stalinist and racist bigot drops to his knees and frantically tugs at Wozzupimself’s fly, squealing:

    “Some common sense…”

    So, one especially racist and stupid troll agreeing with a barking mad concern troll and wants to have his babies. Well colour me surprised.

    Look on the bright side, at least he’s a consistent bigot, witness this anti-American rant:

    The problem is paranoia for profit.
    Eight out of ten of the world’s leading arms manufacturers are located in the USA.
    Hence the NRA.
    They don’t give a stuff about liberty.

    Numbers thinks Americans are paranoid! (Yes, Numbers)

    Numbers is terrified that they make stuff!

    Numbers blames Chiang Kai Shek!

    Numbers says Yanks hate Liberty!

    (He’s on the low-grade meth again)

    At least Numbers is consistently stupid. After all, he’s astonished that the USA has arms manufacturers. He lies about 8/10 of the largest being there, of course (even SIPRI only say it’s seven, and they include no Chinese companies, yet NORINCO dwarfs Lockheed-Martin. Perhaps poor bong-addled numbers thinks China, Russia, France and India recently gave up arms production.

    I also love his consistent hatred of the Chinese Nationalists’ National Revolutionary Army, too. Poor old numbers has a weed on with Chiang Kai Shek and the Soong clan. Dude, did one of the Soongs root yer grand-dad, or something?

  81. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    couple of anti – gun crazies on this thread

    O.K., so I’ve got land here, in the Wild West. I’ve got four guns, (one antique.) Two serviceable rifles – bolt action – and a pump action shotgun.

    I’ve listened to the local rednecks justifying their right to own fully automatic weapons (One of which even assured me that the Australian Constitution gave him the right to carry a gun…) – on the “willy waving” grounds. I don’t see why civilians should have access to fully automatic weapons – does that make me an anti gun crazy? And, for the record, I’ve carried, stripped, cleaned, maintained and fired most of the small arms inventory of the A.D.F. in the 1970′s and 1980′s.

  82. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Wozzupimself:

    The way your semi articulate abuse and foul language takes the place of reasoned discussion and debate I was thinking exactly the same about you. Still its pretty much what I have come to expect from the gun lobby but the question remains how on EARTH do you think you have emotional IQ to own a
    deadly weapon.

    Anyway your attitude kind of proves my point about why I gave up being involved in shooting sports – there were just too many people like you. Still maybe one day you will grow up, mature and learn to discuss things like and adult rather than an immature prepubescent.

    Wozzupimself is a bog-standard lefty pulling the concern troll schtick.

    It’s never owned a firearm in its life.

    The words and phrases above are all part of the standard repetoire for the run-of-the-mill left-wing totalitarian whackjob.

    He’s boring.

    There is never anything new with these idiots.

  83. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Stalin’s butt-boy:

    A minority are absolute wankers. Some of them get their Glibertarian naivety mixed up with their obsessional fantasies and post here……

    he was always going to let his perverted obsession with masturbation loose, he just cannot help himself.

  84. Aristogeiton

    Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC
    #1350324, posted on June 17, 2014 at 5:36 pm
    Wozzupimself:
    [...]
    Anyway your attitude kind of proves my point about why I gave up being involved in shooting sports – there were just too many people like you. Still maybe one day you will grow up, mature and learn to discuss things like and adult rather than an immature prepubescent.

    I don’t shoot, nor do I own a gun. I am for freedom, however. But no, because I support freedom of the individual to choose, I’m part of the ‘gun lobby’ and some gun-crazed nutter. Pathetic.

  85. Our pet Stalinist and racist bigot drops to his knees and frantically tugs at Wozzupimself’s fly, squealing:

    Agro consistently finds it impossible to post without a homophobic reference.

    I also love his consistent hatred of the Chinese Nationalists’ National Revolutionary Army, too. Poor old numbers has a weed on with Chiang Kai Shek and the Soong clan. Dude, did one of the Soongs root yer grand-dad, or something?

    He’s also a little more deranged than usual.
    I made no reference to Chiang Kai Shek.
    He’s dragged that (and the rest of his rant) from repressed memory.

    I’ve listened to the local rednecks justifying their right to own fully automatic weapons (One of which even assured me that the Australian Constitution gave him the right to carry a gun…) –

    They also believe that Elvis is alive, the moon landing was faked, 9/11 was a conspiracy, and Martin Bryant is innocent.
    There’s a lot of it about…….

  86. Our pet Stalinist and racist bigot drops to his knees and frantically tugs at Wozzupimself’s fly, squealing:

    He’s not a Stalinist. Why do you lie?

  87. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Philippa:

    I, for example, am actually a sixteen-stone, 54 year old black man who lives in Florida. I enjoy playing golf, and when I vote, I usually vote Democrat, but I have time on my hands, and Second Life just didn’t do it for me.

    I am shocked! You said you were only 15st 11lb!

    :0

  88. I am shocked! You said you were only 15st 11lb!

    :0

    Hey, my online dating profile is my own business, man.

    And I’m surprised to see YOU here, ‘MK50 of Brisbane’ – or should I say, ‘Jeffrey from Birmingham, AL’? I haven’t forgotten those Instagram shots you sent me. Nor has the County Court.

  89. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Well, Numbers, your latest thread derailment has been fun. But we DO tire of your endless VietnamVietnamVietnamMeMeMeMeMe attention-seeking behaviour.

    However, the adults would like to discuss a few things without your panty-soiling hysteria and endless narcissism.

    Sinc – time to lower the boom on this idiot for a little while. When he’s deliberately derailing EVERY thread by the Senator-elect, I think the time has come.

  90. Sinc – time to lower the boom on this idiot for a little while.

    I disagree. When you can refute his arguments without lying and homophobia, it might be time to lower the boom gate.

  91. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1350329, posted on June 17, 2014 at 5:41 pm
    [...]
    They also believe that Elvis is alive, the moon landing was faked, 9/11 was a conspiracy, and Martin Bryant is innocent.
    There’s a lot of it about…….

    More of Numbers bigoted hatred for his own countrymen on display.

  92. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Philippa George: Heh. At least no-one knows about my current location. Witness protection’s SO cool.

    Or knows about the Dog Park…. incident. (Remember that, George?)
    Your signs worked, though:
    ‘Dogs are not allowed in the dog park’
    ‘People are not allowed in the dog park’
    ‘Do not make eye contact with the hooded figures in the dog park’
    ‘DANGER. Electrified Fence. 500,000 volts’

  93. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    AP:

    When you can refute his arguments without lying and homophobia,

    At least you have finally realised he’s a serial lair and raging homophobe, noob.

    Progress!

  94. Well, Numbers, your latest thread derailment has been fun. But we I DO tire of your endless VietnamVietnamVietnamMeMeMeMeMe attention-seeking behaviour. capacity to call my ad hom attacks for what they are – an attempt to distract because I couldn’t win a debate with an average seven year old.

  95. At least you have finally realised he’s a serial lair and raging homophobe, noob.

    No, Mk50, you’re the liar.
    you come onto this site every day and describe him as a “stalinist” and “racist bigot.” Every day.
    You can’t back it up, except for some contorted logic about how he votes Green, and Rhiannon is a green, and Rhiannon’s communist past, etc…. which is to say, you can’t back it up.

    Yet you come on here and say it – an untruth – every day of your life.

    Personally, I can’t stand numbers anti-Australian, anti-west, bitter leftist worldview. But on the other hand, I hate liars too. Just a personal preference thing.

    I wouldn’t care if it was a one-time bit of over-the-top rhetoric, you know, some abuse in the heat of the moment. But the fact that you say it every single day, literally, shows that you really are trying to propagate this as truth. You say it’s because you’re using “their own tactics.” To me that’s just an admission that you’re dishonest.

    By trying to win with an obvious lie, you lower yourself and make him look good. It’s self-defeating behaviour.

  96. oldsalt

    Aristo- no not city dweller, the incident I refer to was in Weipa and I haven’t turned my back on a Maori since.

    The other incident I’ve referred to in this thread, the unprovoked and non-predictable shooting death of an NR deckhand on the wharf in Batalumba [aka Rollanumba] Bay Groote Eylandt by a Viet vet from Geraldton, initials L.C, in 1983, skipper of the ‘Xanadu,’ can probably be found in NT Court records of that year. I relief skippered his boat after the shooting.

    Maddies exist and self defence won’t protect you against them.

    I’m glad you’ve had such a sheltered life and I now wish the same for my kids.

  97. Or knows about the Dog Park…. incident. (Remember that, George?)

    Damn you, Jeffrey! DAMN YOU!

  98. I don’t see why civilians should have access to fully automatic weapons – does that make me an anti gun crazy?

    Er…. ZK2A …. fully automatic weapons weren’t something the public ever had access to in Oz. I can’t think of a use for them, apart from a “yippee shoot” on a range.

    Semi-autos are entirely different. I used ‘em a lot, had so many I had to count ‘em if asked how many I had, plus a variety of other stuff. Some were just for their historical value, but most were for pig eradication in broadacre crops.

    I will never forgive any and every politician who voted for gun control. In the event Australia (touch wood) faces great peril, and lack of access to, or familiarity with firearms, compromises our position (eg, during part or whole occupation by an enemy force) I will do my level best, after we defeat the enemy, to ensure that every politician who voted for gun control pays a capital penalty.

  99. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    So, you still have no answer to the FBI’s reports which proved you to be a liar. Again.

    Or to Kennesaw.

    Or to rising levels of firearms ownership in this country and declining firearms violence stats.

    Or to soaring firearms ownership in the USA thanks to the best gun salesman in human history (Chimsper H Preshizzle (Paco™) while violent crimes involving firearms (and crime rates in general) drop.

    How interesting.

    But I expected you to respond as you did (you are SO pavlovian it truly is pitiful), so as to enable the thread to be brought back OT.

    And so back to the subject after the racist’s derailment.

    What the Senator-elect is noting illustrates a genuinely nasty trait by statist lefties – their disdain for teh concept of societal trust in their fellow citizens.

    This inability to treat anyone but their ideological fellow travellers as members of the same society (let alone trust them), is central to this issue. I get back again to the wife of my US friend, the very petite MMA instructor.

    her society trusts her to be a responsible citizen and to exercise her civic responsibilities with due care.

    She does.

    We do not so trust people, despite actual facts like every single lefty prognostication of ‘blood crazed mayhem and slaughter in the streets’ being proven laughably false.

    Obviously, most citizens with a record of being law abiding can be trusted to own any damned firearms they want. The people who do not trust them are, universally, the left.

    Which speaks of their projection: they fear the law abiding as they are not themselves law-abiding, which begs the question, what would they do if given the chance to fully disarm the population?

    Just like Lenin’s lads did.

    So I am fully on the Senator-elect’s side on this issue, because he’s opposing the predators.

  100. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    SATP:

    Er…. ZK2A …. fully automatic weapons weren’t something the public ever had access to in Oz. I can’t think of a use for them, apart from a “yippee shoot” on a range.

    Well, not entirely true. My school’s cadet armoury had Brens and Owens and access was controlled by a 17 year old boy. Yep, he was trusted to be responsible, and was.

    Any C or D class license holder can own semiauto and auto weapons. Compatriot of mine has thousands of the things, earns a good living from them too. Think I might upgrade to C in a year or so.

  101. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Philippa:

    Damn you, Jeffrey! DAMN YOU!

    They never found a thing. They can never prove anything. We were never there. Even the bones are gone.

    Thanks to the GlowCloud.

    All hail the GlowCloud!

  102. Well, not entirely true. My school’s cadet armoury had Brens and Owens and access was controlled by a 17 year old boy. Yep, he was trusted to be responsible, and was.

    Agreed and noted. Though I wasn’t counting that as “free and discretionary ownership to carry, buy, sell, and do as one pleases with”.

    No need for any of us to go into the 1996 laws being devised by people whose knowledge of firearms came from watching TV.

  103. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Very true, SATP. Very true.

  104. But I expected you to respond as you did (you are SO pavlovian it truly is pitiful), so as to enable the thread to be brought back OT.

    Well done.
    You’ve managed to post something sans abuse and scatological references.
    It’s pleasing to see the Cat regulating itself.

    Obviously, most citizens with a record of being law abiding can be trusted to own any damned firearms they want. The people who do not trust them are, universally, the left.

    Interesting statement.
    The use of “most”, and “any”. even more so.
    Martin Bryant was “law abiding” (with the exception of an unlicensed driving conviction) until 28 April 1996.
    And if you want to apply “any”, he could have been carrying a brace of M-72s or perhaps one M-79.
    After all, these weapons could be described as “any damned firearm”.

  105. Alfonso

    Sigh….. the Cats…….

    Nil serious real world experience in anything except thought experiments.

    Ya gotta laugh.

  106. squawkbox

    Well, not entirely true. My school’s cadet armoury had Brens and Owens and access was controlled by a 17 year old boy. Yep, he was trusted to be responsible, and was.

    I was reading an account from a former pupil of my old school in London in the 60s. Apparently it had a cadet force or officer training corps or whatever it was called then. School grounds weren’t very big, so it trained in one of London’s many public parks. So, once a week, a bunch of teenagers take rifles and ammo out of the school armory and make their own way to the training area via foot, bicycle or public transport. No one batted an eyelid at the sight of all these armed and unsupervised teenagers. Times have changed.

  107. Well, not entirely true. My school’s cadet armoury had Brens and Owens and access was controlled by a 17 year old boy. Yep, he was trusted to be responsible, and was.

    At a school that has been named on the cat in the past couple of weeks, some relatives of mine were returning from a cadet camp at an army base, when they realised one of their number had lifted a Bren gun and stowed it on the school bus.

    They were overtaken shortly afterward by a jeep doing speeds nobody thought a jeep could do, then pulled over forced over, by the two very panicked regs in the jeep, who recovered the contraband & probably their army career.

  108. Alfonso

    Yawn….Bryant was an IQ 66 retard.

    The AR15 was deliberately ‘blown’, an overcharged round …note, a massive excess powder loaded round, not a blocked barrel than can produce the same over pressure but with a bulged busted barrel….no evidence of that on the remains of the AR 15 …. an Accidental Manufacturers Overcharge that had never happened in millions of cartridges manufactured by Norinco, just happened to explode Bryants weapon at the end ….

    A blown action / barrel by overload means you cannot forensically match a bullet or a case to a particular firearm, it means premeditation, it means no IQ 66 thought process.

    Dunno where that leads.

  109. Dunno where that leads.

    Intersing point Alfonso. The careful observer will have noted there has never been a categoric denial that one or more of the firearms used in that crime had previously been surrendered during a gun amnesty in Victoria.

    Likewise there has been a flat refusal to confirm that all firearms surrendered in the 1996 buy back were destroyed.

  110. Mater

    One of the guns used was a .22 semi – automatic Ruger, the others were a Mossberg shotgun, and a 7.62mm M14.

    Thanks ZK2A. I did some reading. In discussing this issue, it is worth noting that despite him throwing lots of lead around from both the .22 and the Mossberg, it appears that none of the fatalities resulted from these weapons.
    My point is that both these types of weapons have a very valid use in a semi-automatic mode (rabbits and other easily startled vermin). Isn’t it possible that the Howard laws went a little too far from a cost/benefit point of view?

  111. Isn’t it possible that the Howard laws went a little too far from a cost/benefit point of view?

    Yer reckon?

  112. Alfonso

    Indeed Steve, a Vic farmer believes the CAR 15 involved is one he surrendered and was therefore resold / used by police.

    BUT where the firearm came from is not that relevant, its subsequent impossible behaviour is.

  113. Tel

    A blown action / barrel by overload means you cannot forensically match a bullet or a case to a particular firearm, it means premeditation, it means no IQ 66 thought process.

    I didn’t know that. I’ll venture not many people do know that. How interesting.

  114. Alfonso

    “I’ll venture not many people do know that. How interesting”.

    Glad to inform the ignorant, Tel….
    You have bits of the bolt face and extractor that are relied upon for wear matching missing, the barrel is bent and split at the muzzle and can’t be fired again, the chamber is bulged so case contact is distorted for matching purposes, the gas piston is inoperable….you get my drift.

  115. Mater

    Steve,
    I’m quite clear I where I stand on the issue but I am interested in understanding other view points. That said, no matter of how objectively I try to view the various arguments, I am unable to reconcile this aspect of the regulations.

  116. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350616, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:30 pm
    “I’ll venture not many people do know that. How interesting”.

    Glad to inform the ignorant, Tel….
    You have bits of the bolt face and extractor that are relied upon for wear matching missing, the barrel is bent and split at the muzzle and can’t be fired again, the chamber is bulged so case contact is distorted for matching purposes, the gas piston is inoperable….you get my drift.

    What are you trying to imply here?

  117. Alfonso

    “What are you trying to imply here?”

    Alas and alack…that the destruction of the AR15 cannot have been set up by non handloading dumbshit Bryant.

    Dunno where that leads.

  118. john constantine

    martin bryant was well known to police long before port arthur.

    a young lass from my wide circle of aquaintainces met bryant when he sat next to her on an airplane flight. obviously nqr, but lavish with attention, free time and generous with rivers of cash.

    so she went on some coffee dates with him.

    she had an uncle high up in the force, and within hours of him discovering that she knew bryant, and that bryant knew where she lived, some large grim men arrived at her flat to do an off-the-books ‘witness relocation style’ operation.

    bryant was perfectly equipped to get away with stuff, native rat cunning, too dumb to do anything except keep it simple, sociopath enough to believe the lies he constructed for himself, and access to cash no questions asked.

  119. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350626, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:39 pm
    “What are you trying to imply here?”

    Alas and alack…that the destruction of the AR15 cannot have been set up by non handloading dumbshit Bryant.

    Dunno where that leads.

    Bullshit. Come right out and say it or piss of with your conspiratorial nuttery.

  120. Alfonso

    Alas, John…cash didn’t have the technical smarts to destroy the AR 15.

  121. Tel

    I have never actually thought I had a right to own a weapon. Owning a weapon was and is a privilege in our society not a right. And that’s how it should be. The few always ruin it for the many. As is the case with those who abuse their firearm owning privilege.

    And remember these sagely words of advice:

    * Days of imprisonment are always deserved.
    * The nation serves even as a sentinel over a can of petrol.
    * A companion must be a brother, first, because he lives with you, and secondly because he thinks like you.
    * The rifle and the cartridge belt, and the rest, are confided to you not to rust in leisure, but to be preserved in war.
    * Do not ever say “The Government will pay . . . ” because it is you who pay; and the Government is that which you willed to have, and for which you put on a uniform.
    * Discipline is the soul of armies; without it there are no soldiers, only confusion and defeat.
    * Mussolini is always right.
    * For a volunteer there are no extenuating circumstances when he is disobedient.
    * One thing must be dear to you above all: the life of the Duce.

  122. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350633, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:43 pm
    Alas, John…cash didn’t have the technical smarts to destroy the AR 15.

    Go.away.nutter.

  123. Aristogeiton

    Tel
    #1350636, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:43 pm
    I have never actually thought I had a right to own a weapon. Owning a weapon was and is a privilege in our society not a right. And that’s how it should be. The few always ruin it for the many. As is the case with those who abuse their firearm owning privilege.

    And remember these sagely words of advice:

    Lol.

  124. Alfonso

    “Come right out and say it .’
    Errr…say what?

    I have no knowledge or theories on the matter except that the firearms evidence is impossible.

    End of story.

  125. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350643, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:46 pm
    “Come right out and say it .’
    Errr…say what?

    I have no knowledge or theories on the matter except that the firearms evidence is impossible.

    End of story.

    Well, fuck off then. Nutter.

  126. Alfonso

    Oh…… so you have no explanation of the impossible evidence except “fuck off”.

    You’d make a good Warmist, possum..

  127. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350648, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:49 pm
    Oh…… so you have no explanation of the impossible evidence except “fuck off”.

    You’d make a good Warmist, possum..

    Bugger off, nutter.

  128. Alas and alack…that the destruction of the AR15 cannot have been set up by non handloading dumbshit Bryant.

    Of course it was. He might have been a simpleton academically but he knew lots about guns.

    You have found two contradictory pieces of information, but failed to consider that the other one might be wrong: the much vaunted IQ score of 66.
    Yeah, I’m sure he tried real hard on that IQ test he did while in prison. Wanted to really give it his best for the prison psychologist.

  129. Alfonso

    Nice to see you concede in public, sweetie.

  130. Alfonso

    His IQ was measured in the scholl system you dolt.

  131. Aristogeiton

    Aussiepundit
    #1350651, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:51 pm
    Alas and alack…that the destruction of the AR15 cannot have been set up by non handloading dumbshit Bryant.

    Of course it was. He might have been a simpleton academically but he knew lots about guns.

    You have found two contradictory pieces of information, but failed to consider that the other one might be wrong: the much vaunted IQ score of 66.
    Yeah, I’m sure he tried real hard on that IQ test he did while in prison. Wanted to really give it his best for the prison psychologist.

    Phht. What’s far more believable is that the police deliberately destroyed the weapon because… conspiracy something. It was a frame-up! Oh, noes! 9/11 was an inside job. Bush knocked down the towers!!!! Tell the truth! WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE!?

  132. His IQ was measured in the scholl system you dolt.

    link?
    (although even if there is a link, my point still stands… I’m not saying the number is wrong but given the choice between the gun evidence being wrong and the IQ score, I’d ditch the IQ score).

  133. candy

    The truth about Australia’s gun control experiment

    It’s not an “experiment” it’s law and the populace approve.

    Any attempt to change it will end very badly for LDP. You guys need to think seriously about that.

  134. Aristogeiton

    Aussiepundit
    #1350660, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:54 pm
    His IQ was measured in the scholl system you dolt.

    link?
    (although even if there is a link, my point still stands… I’m not saying the number is wrong but given the choice between the gun evidence being wrong and the IQ score, I’d ditch the IQ score).

    Fuck the cnut. Let him outline his reasoning instead of hiding behind ‘dunno where that leads’ like a weasel.

  135. Alfonso

    Sorry matettes, you’ll have to do your own googling, commenting with the low infos gets me nowhere…. it’s a waste time between Heines.

  136. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350669, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:58 pm
    Sorry matettes, you’ll have to do your own googling, commenting with the low infos gets me nowhere…. it’s a waste time between Heines.

    Ok. Fuck off now nutter.

  137. Alfonso

    Oh…get back to the firearms evidence, possum…..Bryant had no handloading gear or technical knowledge..
    It’s another bastard fact, eh.

  138. .

    It’s not an “experiment” it’s law and the populace approve.

    No candy it has failed and the evidence shows this, and apolitical academics like Dr Don Weatherburn agree.

    Any attempt to change it will end very badly for LDP. You guys need to think seriously about that.

    No. Enough of the public don’t approve so that it would make the LDP much more popular.

  139. .

    Alfonso
    #1350676, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:01 pm
    Oh…get back to the firearms evidence, possum…..Bryant had no handloading gear or technical knowledge..
    It’s another bastard fact, eh.

    I have always suspected that you are an anti libertarian troll and now we know you are.

  140. Alfonso

    I have always suspected that you are an anti libertarian troll and now we know you are.

    Errrr….how?

  141. Tel

    bryant was perfectly equipped to get away with stuff, native rat cunning, too dumb to do anything except keep it simple, sociopath enough to believe the lies he constructed for himself, and access to cash no questions asked.

    You are saying that police sat and watched, knowing he was committing crimes but they couldn’t touch him because he was wealthy? Is that just a Tasmania thing?

  142. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350676, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:01 pm
    Oh…get back to the firearms evidence, possum…..Bryant had no handloading gear or technical knowledge..
    It’s another bastard fact, eh.

    No. You’re fucking off now, like you said; why waste your time with the ‘low infos’? Back to your forums to discuss how the Illuminati really killed Tupac. Don’t waste your time with the sheeple here. Numbnuts.

  143. Alfonso

    Nice to see you concede in public without argument or facts again, sweetie.

  144. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350689, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:06 pm
    Nice to see you concede in public without argument or facts again, sweetie.

    No, like you said, it’s time for you to go dumbass:

    Alfonso
    #1350669, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:58 pm
    [...]
    [C]ommenting with the low infos gets me nowhere…. it’s a waste time

    Fuck off now.

  145. Alfonso

    Nice to see you concede in public without argument or facts again, sweetie.

    Ditto.

  146. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    fully automatic weapons weren’t something the public had access to

    Steve at the Pub – At the time of the new gun laws, some low life was running Chinese copies of the AK – 47 into West Australia, which were either fully automatic, or easily converted to such. Some of the local rednecks I mentioned saw possession of one as a sign of “macho”, and were demanding they be legalized.

  147. Alfonso

    Any argument…any facts, possum?

    Didn’t think so.

    Definitely time for a Heinie.

  148. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1350680, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:02 pm
    Alfonso
    #1350676, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:01 pm
    Oh…get back to the firearms evidence, possum…..Bryant had no handloading gear or technical knowledge..
    It’s another bastard fact, eh.

    I have always suspected that you are an anti libertarian troll and now we know you are.

    Yeah, here he is on the Alan Jones/Leyonhjelm thread:

    Alfonso
    #1343067, posted on June 11, 2014 at 1:44 pm
    Alas, if Dave ever gets on the tv Leader’s Debate come election time it’s all over.
    A few philosophical questions about the advisability of legal concealed carry for legal pot using bikers and it’s all over baby blue. Unless, shock horror, Dave denies the LDP policy thrice.

    But now we’re getting some conspiratorial nuttery, suggesting that Martin Bryant was set up. Make sense of that.

  149. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350705, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:13 pm
    Any argument…any facts, possum?

    Didn’t think so.

    Definitely time for a Heinie.

    Jam it up your Heinie, nutter.

  150. Steve at the Pub – At the time of the new gun laws, some low life was running Chinese copies of the AK – 47 into West Australia, which were either fully automatic, or easily converted to such. Some of the local rednecks I mentioned saw possession of one as a sign of “macho”, and were demanding they be legalized.

    A not particularly difficult operation. Then again, gunsmiths can make guns so fully auto is far from impossible.
    Good luck to them getting them legalised, you’d imagine they’d have Buckley’s of even getting a hearing on the matter.
    Especially the chinese copies. I’d not want to stand too close to anybody firing one on full auto.

  151. Alfonso

    You’re avoiding the Bryant firearms facts again, possum, and doing a unicorn….. but no matter…..

    I own 8 centerfire firearms and believe Dave’s silly concealed carry crap is just that.

    Now, what has that to do with Bryant and the firearms evidence at Port Arthur that you are argument and fact free about? C’mon son, concentrate.

  152. Tel

    Some of the local rednecks I mentioned saw possession of one as a sign of “macho”, and were demanding they be legalized.

    So let me get this straight, illegal stuff was illegal, so we had to change the law because in order for it to remain illegal. Is my grog better than usual, or it this thread making less and less sense?

  153. Aristogeiton

    Alfonso
    #1350732, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:24 pm
    You’re avoiding the Bryant firearms facts again, possum, and doing a unicorn….. but no matter…..

    I own 8 centerfire firearms and believe Dave’s silly concealed carry crap is just that.

    Now, what has that to do with Bryant and the firearms evidence at Port Arthur that you are argument and fact free about? C’mon son, concentrate.

    What part of ‘get fucked, I don’t converse with nutters’ don’t you understand. Fuck off dumbshit. You’re only going to achieve ‘get fucked’ and its variants from me, you troll nutter.

  154. Is my grog better than usual, or it this thread making less and less sense?

    Probably somewhere in the middle of that Tel.

  155. Tel

    Steve, I’ll take your professional opinion on that. I’ve probably swallowed more alcohol than you, but you have no doubt paid much closer attention to the process involved.

  156. Alfonso

    So fact free, argument free, knowledge absent, absolutely ignorant of the firearms evidence…….and wishing to produce none…… poor old Aristogeiton’s response is ‘get fucked’.

    Way To Go Diddums.

  157. Aristo suddenly ate from the cranky tree.

  158. I suspect Alfonso that we lost Aristo at the part where you stopped theorising and started on principles of engineering.

  159. Aristogeiton

    Steve at the Pub
    #1350750, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:35 pm
    Aristo suddenly ate from the cranky tree.

    I don’t converse with dishonest nutters. People already give libertarians enough shit without this nonsense being out there unchallenged. I gave it the response it warranted.

  160. Eddystone

    Alfonso

    #1350616, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:30 pm

    “I’ll venture not many people do know that. How interesting”.

    Glad to inform the ignorant, Tel….
    You have bits of the bolt face and extractor that are relied upon for wear matching missing, the barrel is bent and split at the muzzle and can’t be fired again, the chamber is bulged so case contact is distorted for matching purposes, the gas piston is inoperable….you get my drift.

    No gas piston on an AR15 in 1996.

  161. Aristogeiton

    Steve at the Pub
    #1350758, posted on June 17, 2014 at 9:40 pm
    I suspect Alfonso that we lost Aristo at the part where you stopped theorising and started on principles of engineering.

    Disappointed that you seem to be as much of a nutter as your idiot friend.

  162. Disappointed that you seem to be as much of a nutter as your idiot friend.

    Hmmm, it is after 9pm.
    How’s the shiraz going down Aristo?

  163. Alfonso

    No gas piston on an AR15 in 1996.

    Ok…’direct gas impingment’ if that helps.
    Aristo doesn’t mind.

  164. No gas piston on an AR15 in 1996.

    Eh? You’ve sent me back to the books now. I didn’t know that. Almost bought an AR15 in …er.. 1990 or so.

    That was one part I used to take to bits in the gunshop before buying, so many would fire dirty military ammo & clean the barrel, but not the gas assembly.

  165. Alfonso

    “nonsense being out there unchallenged.”

    Your little problem is you aren’t challenging it…you’re merely tantrum-ing when your belief system is challenged. Sad defence for a Libert.

  166. Aristogeiton

    Fuck you, prick. Outline your alternate theory that involves other(s) destroying the weapon or fuck off. I don’t want to hear ‘dunno where that leads’; fuck you: you need an entire theory explaining how/why/and who destroyed the weapon if not Bryant either through inadvertence or design. Or fuck off. The fact that you’re too embarrassed to outline one indicates to me that it must be some really grade-A lunacy.

  167. john constantine

    bryants wealth came from tattslotto, not from buying tickets, but from his share of the earnings of the lottery trust.

    effectively set for life.

    drove the cops crazy that his inheritance arrived at the end of events that sent every decent cop bullshit dectector off the scale, but he wouldn’t confess, and there was always too much doubt to prosecute, especially with the legal support he could pay for.

    bryant wasn’t mad,or intellectually retarded. bryant was simply an outlier towards the functional/rain man/aspergers end of the spectrum. different operating system to the one society in general runs on.

    given his ability to focus with ludicrous intensity on one thing that fascinated him, and develop a solution that only made sense to his operating system, then pursue that ludicrous solution with discipline and unlimited cash, it was hard to catch him. no instinct or trap developed with experience of mainstream humanity worked with his operating system.

    how to meet girls? just use your money to buy plane tickets,and sit next to them on the plane. they can’t get away from you, and most are polite enough to be pleasant.

    how to speed your inheritance up. pity if there was a terrible accident, hey?.

  168. Alfonso

    Yawn…..
    I’ve told you about the facts around the AR15 blow up, try rereading a few times to absorb it…if you’re bit slow.

    “you need an entire theory’….. no, I just say that the firearms evidence is alarming.

    I speculate no further because my small expertise stops at the firearms facts.

    You seem desperate for shape shifting lizards?

    Son, this thread has fucked you over big time.

  169. Eddystone

    SatP, the Armalite system was designed without a gas piston, direct gas impingement, (as Alfonso has just found out), and originally touted as not needing cleaning.

    They were originally issued without cleaning kits, with predictable results in the field.

    There is now an after market piston kit, apparently, but the military versions don’t have them, and are very reliable with minimal cleaning.

  170. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    this thread making less and less sense

    Sorry, Tel – there was the situation where some individuals had brought a weapon which was illegal, and were demanding that they be made legal.

    I did cop a lot of flak, because yours truly, and a few other ancient warriors, were asking why civilians needed access to assault rifles, either fully automatic, or semi automatic, and some of the reasons we got from the red- neck brigade were, to put it bluntly, shyte.

    “We may have to remove an unpopular Government.”

    “Where were you when the most unpopular Government in Australia was removed through the ballot box?”

    Incoherent grunt.

    “We may need to defend ourselves against invasion – kiss the wife and kids good bye, and go bush.”

    ‘ I’m sorry, what unit were you again? The only casualties you will inflict on any invasion force will be those who die (laughing.)

    Incoherent grunt.

    And, as I’ve said, there are those bright sparks who assure me that the Australian Constitution gives them the right to carry arms.

  171. Eddystone

    I did cop a lot of flak, because yours truly, and a few other ancient warriors, were asking why civilians needed access to assault rifles, either fully automatic, or semi automatic, and some of the reasons we got from the red- neck brigade were, to put it bluntly, shyte.

    Yes, those reasons are shyte. The US Second Amendment is there for protection against a government going tyrannical, but that could never happen in Australia.

    However there are some cogent reasons for not banning semi-autos, and probably no harm in allowing full-autos with restrictions.

    There is plenty of evidence from around the world that gun restrictions don’t work as advertised.

    However, the frogs are now used to the current water temperature, and the heat will undoubtedly be turned up again one day.

  172. Tel

    The US Second Amendment is there for protection against a government going tyrannical, but that could never happen in Australia.

    That’s exactly right!

    The people of Australia know tyranny when they see it, and whether unarmed, or lightly armed, or geared up like Rambo the response of ordinary Australians will always be the same: “Yeah, spose so, OK.”

  173. Tel

    Sorry, Tel – there was the situation where some individuals had brought a weapon which was illegal, and were demanding that they be made legal.

    Just throwing this out there, but why would the correct response to such a situation be to make some other unrelated activities illegal?

  174. I did cop a lot of flak, because yours truly, and a few other ancient warriors, were asking why civilians needed access to assault rifles, either fully automatic, or semi automatic, and some of the reasons we got from the red- neck brigade were, to put it bluntly, shyte.

    The reasons aren’t shyte.
    They are
    1. individual self defence
    2. collective self defence.

    As for point 2, yes, it’s easy to laugh, because invasion or tyranny are pretty implausible. And I agree, the chances of either are negligible today. Fast forward half a century. Who the hell knows? The thing about history is that it keeps happening. Things can change, and when they do, it’s already too late to do anything about it.

    The main reason for banning guns is fear of gun crime. However we know that gun crime happens anyway.

    banning guns is a lot like banning drugs. it’s wishful thinking. Let’s pretend that guns dont’ exist and make society live in the past. It doesn’t work.

  175. Empire

    I have no knowledge or theories on the matter except that the firearms evidence is impossible.

    And on this specific issue, Alfonso is correct. This alleged facts defies the laws of physics. What was alleged is not physically possible. Make of it what you will, but he is right.

    It may not fit the adopted narrative, but this specific allegation would never have been proven beyond reasonable doubt, nor to a lessor burden of proof.

    That said, the accused pleaded guilty and the brief was never tested. Therefore, it is no longer relevant.

  176. Tel

    We may need to defend ourselves against invasion – kiss the wife and kids good bye, and go bush.

    The South Africans tried that against the British, it didn’t work as well as they were hoping.

    The British figured out it was a whole lot easier to round up unarmed and undefended women and children than it was getting shot up by experienced bushmen. It gradually dawned on the South African irregulars that their wives and children were valuable to them, and the British really did intend to kill the lot.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War

    There’s a lesson in this, never overlook the obvious.

  177. Aristogeiton

    Empire
    #1350879, posted on June 17, 2014 at 10:49 pm
    I have no knowledge or theories on the matter except that the firearms evidence is impossible.

    And on this specific issue, Alfonso is correct. This alleged facts defies the laws of physics. What was alleged is not physically possible. Make of it what you will, but he is right.

    Right. So not a squib load or other barrel obstruction? The very laws of physics were defied. That makes sense.

  178. Was never a fan of assault rifles, mainly coz I didn’t think they stacked up against battle rifles.
    Much preferred battle rifles. I could kill pigs, and lots of ‘em with those.
    Much to the distress of those who used & loved the SLR, I never liked it much. Beautiful to look at, a pleasure to dismantle, but I didn’t have the success with it that I had with the M14.

    Assault rifles were great for elderly infirm people to have handy at night. People who are considered soft targets by burglars. Nothing like grandad having an M1 .30 cal carbine that is light enough to use, easy enough to cock, and thereafter doesn’t require bolt to be worked, just keep firing until the thug in the bedroom is no longer a threat.

  179. Besides, assault rifles are designed for many things, accurate shooting is not one of those things.

  180. Empire

    Right. So not a squib load or other barrel obstruction? The very laws of physics were defied. That makes sense.

    I only lurk these days Ari, but have to say I’m generally loving your work. You’re slaying of Authoricons is consistent and impressive.

    Still, you’re not being paid by the DPP on this one, so hold your fire. Check out the brief. It’s Swiss cheese.

    I guess we can all be grateful it was never tested.

  181. Aristogeiton

    Empire
    #1350906, posted on June 17, 2014 at 11:36 pm
    [...]
    Still, you’re not being paid by the DPP on this one, so hold your fire. Check out the brief. It’s Swiss cheese.

    I guess we can all be grateful it was never tested.

    Sorry, but I just don’t buy the suggested conspiracy here. Since Bryant switched to the L1A1 later in the massacre, and failure to clear a squib round and subsequently firing by an inexperienced marksman, or indeed sticking the muzzle in the dirt and firing could just as readily been the cause of the damage to the AR15, I’m going to go with that over the other internet nuttery that has been suggested here.

    Whether the brief was full of holes is another matter. I seem to recall reading that the investigating officers lied to Bryant about his legal counsel at some stage, so perhaps it is just as well he plead his guilt.

  182. Aristogeiton

    One of the leading proponents of this theory has some interesting opinions on the reason for this ‘irregularity’:

    Howard and his Jews wanted gun laws

    John Howard

    Howard is a liberal that panders to Australia’s 140,000 Jews. Rupert Murdoch, who controls the newspapers, put him in power.

    Jews have always wanted an gun ban – Howard rushed the most draconian one in history through in 2 weeks.

    The legislation banned 80% of all firearms, set up a national registration and confiscated present guns.

    http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/port_arthur_massacre.htm

    On the ‘demolition round’ theory:

    http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/V_Beattie_ar_15.htm

    This is fringe nuttery at its finest.

  183. Empire

    Sorry, but I just don’t buy the suggested conspiracy here

    What conspiracy theory? I suggested no such thing. Your barking up the wrong tree.

    Fact: the brief was weak.

  184. Aristogeiton

    Empire
    #1350920, posted on June 18, 2014 at 12:00 am
    Sorry, but I just don’t buy the suggested conspiracy here

    What conspiracy theory? I suggested no such thing. Your barking up the wrong tree.

    Fact: the brief was weak.

    We’re arguing across eachother. I don’t doubt that. However, what nutjob originally said was:

    Alfonso
    #1350574, posted on June 17, 2014 at 8:01 pm
    Yawn….Bryant was an IQ 66 retard.

    The AR15 was deliberately ‘blown’, an overcharged round …note, a massive excess powder loaded round, not a blocked barrel than can produce the same over pressure but with a bulged busted barrel….no evidence of that on the remains of the AR 15 …. an Accidental Manufacturers Overcharge that had never happened in millions of cartridges manufactured by Norinco, just happened to explode Bryants weapon at the end ….

    A blown action / barrel by overload means you cannot forensically match a bullet or a case to a particular firearm, it means premeditation, it means no IQ 66 thought process.

    Dunno where that leads.

  185. Could sufficient load be got into the shell?
    Perhaps.

  186. Empire

    Could sufficient load be got into the shell?
    Perhaps.

    By whom? An interesting mind game, but hardly relevant. He pleaded guilty.

  187. By whom? An interesting mind game, but hardly relevant. He pleaded guilty.

    Not so much interested in that theory. Was thinking how to sufficiently overload the shell.

  188. Empire

    Not so much interested in that theory. Was thinking how to sufficiently overload the shell.

    I’m not a reloader. Any clues? Is there enough powder capacity in that case to achieve the theoretically required pressure?

  189. Is there enough powder capacity in that case to achieve the theoretically required pressure?

    Depends upon the powder used, I can’t see why not, but better to ask someone who knows what they’re talking about.

  190. Percy

    Is there enough powder capacity in that case to achieve the theoretically required pressure?

    I have my doubts that Bryant could possibly manage to do it himself and get it right first time.

  191. I have my doubts that Bryant could possibly manage to do it himself and get it right first time.

    Unless he chocked the shell full. What would happen then?
    I’ve seen the result of a double load in a shotgun. No idea what a triple or worse load would do in the piece in question.

  192. Percy

    More isn’t always more

  193. MsDolittle

    some blokes can do the door knocks to give bad news, some can’t, some can cut down hanging suicides, some can’t, a bit of specialising might mean that more coppers work a full year, instead of having stress leave.]

    And some daughters do too, I’m very proud of her and I know she is a great cop, cuts them down, scrapes them up, she doesn’t say say much about it, she doesn’t have to. Some of her clients Ask her if she is a sister. “‘Course I am” she tells them.

  194. wreckage

    What bothers me is the thought that these individuals actually believe that possessing a firearm actually elevates them to some kind of special status.

    I think it’s called compensation.

    What you just did is called projection, darlin’.

  195. Yobbo

    Martin Bryant was “law abiding” (with the exception of an unlicensed driving conviction) until 28 April 1996.

    Yeah, “law abiding”. But also an obvious psychopath who should have been in a mental asylum.

    In a 2011 interview, his mother recalls that she would often find his toys broken at a very young age, branding him an “annoying” and “different” child. A psychologist’s view was that he would never hold down a job as he would aggravate people to such an extent that he’d always be in trouble.[3]

    Other cases that locals can recall include that he once pulled the snorkel from another boy while diving, and cut down trees on a neighbour’s property. He was described by teachers as being distant from reality and unemotional. At school he was a disruptive and sometimes violent child, and suffered severe bullying by other children. After he was suspended from New Town Primary School in 1977, psychological assessments of Bryant note his torturing of animals. He returned to school the following year with improved behaviour; however, he persisted in teasing younger children. He was transferred to a special education unit at New Town High School in 1980 where he deteriorated both academically and in behaviour throughout his remaining school years.

    Further testing following his arrest indicated a verbal I.Q. of 64 and non-verbal reasoning and cognitive functioning of 68, giving a full scale I.Q. of 66, an age equivalent of 11 years in the 10th percentile (90% of 11 year olds would score higher). On leaving school he was assessed for a disability pension by a psychiatrist who wrote: “Cannot read or write. Does a bit of gardening and watches TV … Only his parents’ efforts prevent further deterioration. Could be schizophrenic and parents face a bleak future with him.” Bryant received a disability pension, though he also worked as a handyman and gardener.

    Around this time, Bryant was reassessed for his pension and a note was attached to the paperwork “Father protects him from any occasion which might upset him as he continually threatens violenceMartin tells me he would like to go around shooting people. It would be unsafe to allow Martin out of his parents’ control”

    Clown.

  196. Yobbo

    Oh, and:

    Neighbours recalled he always carried an air gun and often fired it at tourists as they stopped to buy apples at a stall on the highway, and that late at night he would roam through the surrounding properties firing the gun at dogs when they barked at him. They avoided him “at all costs” despite his attempts to befriend them

  197. Yobbo

    I did cop a lot of flak, because yours truly, and a few other ancient warriors, were asking why civilians needed access to assault rifles, either fully automatic, or semi automatic, and some of the reasons we got from the red- neck brigade were, to put it bluntly, shyte.

    If you can explain to me the difference between an “assault rifle”, and a non-assault semi-automatic rifle used for shooting Kangaroos, then I will explain why I need one.

    ….to shoot kangaroos.

    “Assault Rifle” is a meaningless term, which basically refers to the colour and design. People need assault rifles because they look cool. The same reason people need Ford Mustangs.

  198. Aristogeiton

    Yobbo
    #1351026, posted on June 18, 2014 at 3:41 am

    Whatever. Thread has already been derailed with fringe lunacy involving a Jew conspiracy to fit Bryant up for a Zionist massacre, covered up with an overcharged round to hide ballistic evidence for the AR15 (but not the L1A1), to take away our guns. Far more believable than that his first weapon, which he subsequently switched out for a second, was destroyed because of a squib round he was too fool to recognise did not kick, or a barrel obstruction, in a weapon known to jam readily and occasionally fail catastrophically. There are videos of AR15s and M16s being destroyed this way on the internet, when operated by dumbasses.

    This place is an embarrassment.

  199. Clam Chowdah

    Nobody outside of soldiering needs a full auto weapon. But, goodness me, they are fun to shoot.

  200. Yobbo

    It’s kind of irrelevant since a full auto weapon is no more dangerous than a semi-auto weapon in the hands of someone who wants to kill you. Full auto is used for suppressing fire. Even soldiers don’t try and kill people on automatic mode. Semi-automatic mode is quite capable of killing you just the same.

  201. Mater

    Nobody outside of soldiering needs a full auto weapon. But, goodness me, they are fun to shoot.

    Wouldn’t plain packaging the ammunition have worked? ;-)
    Perhaps they could have taxed it into oblivion? ;-)

  202. Clam Chowdah

    It’s kind of irrelevant since a full auto weapon is no more dangerous than a semi-auto weapon in the hands of someone who wants to kill you. Full auto is used for suppressing fire. Even soldiers don’t try and kill people on automatic mode. Semi-automatic mode is quite capable of killing you just the same.

    Good point. But what do you need full auto for in civvie street? Shooting roos? Nope. Single fire will kill people dead, so what else do you need? Full auto in a shopping mall crowd is another story.

  203. Aristogeiton

    Clam Chowdah
    #1351051, posted on June 18, 2014 at 5:37 am
    [...]
    Good point. But what do you need full auto for in civvie street? Shooting roos? Nope. Single fire will kill people dead, so what else do you need? Full auto in a shopping mall crowd is another story.

    Necessary so that my trigger fingers don’t get tired before I can complete the two cross-handed arcs of fire like they do in the movies?

  204. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Eddystone:

    However there are some cogent reasons for not banning semi-autos, and probably no harm in allowing full-autos with restrictions.

    Agree. Small-framed females can easily handle the light weight and low recoil of the 5.56mm AR-15. The AR-15 is proving to be extremely popular with women in the USA as a home-and-self-defence firearm, as numerous house-invader types have found when bailed up, forced to flee/forced to the floor to await Mr Plod. Many women are alive and even more un-raped due to the AR-15. Many more so with the newer, small semi-auto pistols designed for women. Oddly, until the californian hoplophobes started to legislate against the AR-15, the ‘standard’ US long arm was bolt action. Now it’s semi-auto by a country mile. Beware unintended consequences.

    Full auto… dunno. There’s just not much data. I mean, nobody has ever been murdered in the USA with a machine gun (altho IIRC years ago a copper killed another copper with one he grabbed from the police armoury? Something about the guy screwing his missus??). Probably no harm and certainly no harm in a functional culture like ours. I’d want them restricted for one reason only – to stop our home-grown islamist terrs from getting hold of them.

    There is plenty of evidence from around the world that gun restrictions don’t work as advertised.

    All of which is ignored/vilified by the left, by hoplophobes and by totalitarian wannabe fanbois. But I repeat myself.

    They simply cannot explain Kennesaw, and there are other places like it. And yes it is cultural. In the USA, the ‘gangsta’ culture (irrespective of people being black and white or brindled) of the welfare-ruined inner city types in failed cities like Detroit and Chicago is a repeat Kennesaw (all illegal of course) in a localised, anarchic and Christian-value-free welfare-dependent, drug riddled culture. The result is disaster. But the result of welfarism always is the destruction of functional culture and its replacement with welfare slaves under the control of a self-selected left-wing hereditary aristocracy. And such an aristocracy care not a fig for the welfare slaves.

    Once again it comes down to societal trust.

    Empire:

    And on this specific issue, Alfonso is correct. This alleged facts defies the laws of physics. What was alleged is not physically possible. Make of it what you will, but he is right.

    I was not aware of these alleged facts until Alfonso raised them. I’d want serious confirmation (links to documentation etc) confirming the allegations. IF (note the caveat) the allegations are correct then the firearm MIGHT HAVE BEEN deliberately destroyed. IF (note the caveat again) it was deliberately destroyed, then something smells, Ockham’s Razor would indicate the firearm being one surrendered to police, nicked and on-sold. And I KNOW that happened in several amnesties. Bootloads of SKS and other semi-auto’s and pistols left a number of police stations in NSW alone. The one I know of found out he’d been reported and quickly left the force to take up residence in Greece. The lesson? Don’t sell to your Greek bovver-boy mates and not to the Leb bovver-boys. All that said, people screw up and firearms do funny things when they fail. I have seen an overcharge incident at the Canberra SSAA range (post-event) and it was not pretty. Mauser IIRC, hand-load not factory. His left hand was badly damaged, so I was told, and the rifle was destroyed. Two months ago I had five squibs at the range in one sitting, my own handloads, my own fault, thank God for bolt action .303s. You cannot reload a .303 after a primer-only squib and propellant goes everywhere so you cannot miss it. RSO’s did the right thing and after the second did a demo on squibs for those there. Embarrassing for me but so what? Bad propellant, it did not initiate although the primers did. That whole batch got pulled and the propellant dumped. So crap does happen.

    Youtube of a squib: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcHJajwkWyM

    RSO saved that guy’s hand.

    Like Ari, I am not buying a conspiracy here. With confirmation of the allegations, perhaps ‘hiding’ a firearm that had been surrendered and amnesty and nicked.

    Could that cartridge be overloaded to the point of failure.

    I am a reloader. And potentially yes.

    He used a Colt AR-15 SP1 Carbine, which can use 5.56 mm NATO/.223-calibre rounds. Pressure levels are defined by Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) and Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (CIP).

    For the AR-15 SP1, SAAMI is 55,000 psi, CIP is 62,366 psi. They use different measurement methods, both are valid. Anyone with half a brain loads below the pressure and makes damned sure he understands which is being used in the load data he has. I never load my WWI rifles above 75% of max and use a lighter bullet than specified. Yeah, I get some funny ballistics but so what? I only range plink with them. My new .308 hunting rifle I load to max mv (but not pressure).

    Now to cartridges. The .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges can both be used in this firearm with equivalent accuracy. BUT chamberings while similar are not identical. The two cartridges are identical other than powder load and the chamber leade. This (the leade) is where the rifling begins. It is cut to a sharper angle on some .223 Remington commercial chambers and I do not know if it was on Bryant’s model of AR-15. Therefore, a cartridge loaded to generate 5.56x45mm NATO pressures in a 5.56x45mm NATO chamber can develop pressures exceeding SAAMI limits when fired in a short-leade .223 Remington chamber. If you then used a very fast burning powder loaded to cartridge maximum capacity and (God forbid) tamped down – well I sure as hell would not fire that thing. They over-engineer them but that’s got to be well outside SAAMI max. I’d expect catastrophic failure and serious injury to the person firing it. Even if it survived I would never fire it, I’d junk the barrel and probably the bolt too, and have the action very, very carefully examined by a metallurgist. Chamber overpressure can stress the metal beyond elastic limit and it is going to fail catastrophically, and soon, in that condition.

    hope this helps on the technical side.

  205. JDIZZLE

    The ongoing costs of running the firearms registration systems are unknown but have been estimated at around $28 million per year, or $75,000 per day. That’s more than what the average Australian earns in a year.

    Closer scrutiny of Australian gun Laws and the need for an unbiased public debate is evident in this quote alone from David Leyonhjelm’s article, one that I have not seen many people touch on in the comments. Especially on top of the claims, fears and proven instances that the firearms registry has been breached
    See attached link to one such instance;
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/blunder-spreads-firearms-details/story-fndo317g-1226446217031
    A serious look at the firearms legislation in this country and comparisons with overseas statistics should be an issue that is important to everyone. With current crime rates on the rise across the country (see Australian bureau of statistics) protection of ones person, property and most importantly family should be high on everyone’s list. No Law or legislation is perfect and the inconsistencies within the rushed firearms act of 1996 are extremely obvious, even to someone such as myself with very limited knowledge on the subject.
    Instances of this are wide and ranging but some that I have discovered are as follows. Protection of ones person, property and family is not included as a genuine reason for firearms ownership. Suppresses (or, silencers) are illegal purely due to the media’s portrayal and propaganda i.e. the tool of hardened criminals and professional hitmen when in actual fact they are rarely used by the criminal element and could in fact be of great benefit not only to the recreational or professional shooter as hearing protection, but also the general public and of-course man’s best friend and hunting companion who are clearly unequipped to protect there own ears. There are some great articles on this topic and I would suggest anyone interested in firearms or Australian firearms legislation to look them up
    Semi Auto Rifles are illegal on an A – B class license but a revolving carbine rifle is not? They are capable of firing just as many bullets in rapid succession as many semi auto loading rifles but are somehow deemed more safe for the average firearms owner and law abiding citizen.
    The same could be said for lever action shotguns vs. Pump action! Not to mention a high powered Pump action Rifle.
    The fact of life is that if someone intends to do harm to another individual they are going to find a way.
    I do not dispute the need for firearms legislation and in many ways Australia has made great strides in the right direction but in many others, it has simply gone too far. A person that abides by the rules and laws should be able to do so freely and without prejudice.
    Tough scrutiny of perspective firearms owners is required and a persons mental health should also be a factor. Not just a segment on a form.
    All license classes should be abolished except those that cover firearms easily concealed i.e Handguns and the firearms registry should be abolished.

  206. Eddystone

    Tough scrutiny of perspective firearms owners is required and a persons mental health should also be a factor.

    Who does the scrutiny?

    The fact is that the honesty and integrity of those scrutinising potential firearms owners is unlikely to be any better than that of the general population.

    As it stands, one needs a clean record to obtain and keep a licence.

    As for mental health, that is not an objective field. The potential for activism and manipulation is enormous.

    My advice for anyone feeling unhappy or unable to cope with life is to search for a solution that does not involve doctors, drugs or government.

    Throwing oneself on the mercy of the state mental health apparatus can be a life changing experience for all the wrong reasons.

  207. JDIZZLE

    Who does the scrutiny?

    We currently have police checks and training courses as well as extensive cooling off periods, I see no reason for this to change.

    As for mental health, that is not an objective field. The potential for activism and manipulation is enormous.

    I think its New Zealand that also interview family members and friends to better screen out individuals with anti social tendencies. A screening process similar to army, navy and air force could also be utilized, it doesn’t have to be private medical records and what a doctor 10 years ago may or may not have treated you for. Unfortunately there is always a potential for someone to slip through, the situation in 2010 where a woman stole a pistol from a shooting club she had been attending to shoot her father is testament to that. its the X factor that apply’s to most things in life and even the 1996 act is unable to legislate for that.
    The fact is, guns are here to stay. They are a necessary tool of Australian life and anyone that doesn’t realize that is living in a fantasy.

  208. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    What’s annoying about this thread is that it’s an important issue with numerous ramifications, and it was deliberately derailed and destroyed by one narcissistic idiot by deliberate trolling.

    Every single guest post by the senator-elect is targeted in this manner by teh same individual, and I am a bit sick of it.

    It’s an uncommon thing to have a politician posting guest posts liek this. While I am not a Libertarian I support a lot of the concepts espoused, and I’d like to see more, and more free-flowing, discussion on the Senator-elect’s posts rather than see one moron troll them for his own masturbatory amusement.

  209. What’s annoying about this thread is that it’s an important issue with numerous ramifications,

    Yep, like gun wankers shooting themselves in the unmentionables.…………..

  210. Aristogeiton

    1735099
    #1352803, posted on June 19, 2014 at 6:22 pm
    What’s annoying about this thread is that it’s an important issue with numerous ramifications,

    Yep, like gun wankers shooting themselves in the unmentionables.…………..

    I hate you, you pathetic old man.

  211. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Ari, he’s on about his masturbation obsession, yet again. Ignore the old tugger, he is certainly not worth an emotion as strong as hatred.

    the only thing I feel for him is pity. Imagine living a life and turning out like that!

    What he’s provided is solid proof of his determination to troll, derail and destroy any thread Leyonhjelm generates with a guest post.

    Sinc does not drop the banhammer for much, but he does for deliberate and repeated thread derailment.

  212. Empire

    Choose empathy Ari.

    Imagine, for a moment, being afflicted with the malaise and helpless to remedy it.

Comments are closed.