Honour killings and 18c

Our old friend evcricket has been making the argument that we libertarians are hypocrites on repugnant speech. This is in the context of the Sydney Opera House / St. James Ethics Centre sponsored event “Honour Killings are morally justified”. This is how we covered the story: here and here.

Let’s be very clear – not only are so-called “honour killings” morally repugnant, they are contrary to both the common law and legislation within the state of New South Wales, and every other state and territory of the Australian Commonwealth. Perhaps the talk was to explain why “honour killings” shouldn’t be morally repugnant. Perhaps we’ve all got it wrong; maybe there should be an exemption from the law against murder to allow men to murder their wife, daughters, daughters-in-law, or just any random female who happens to annoy or “disrespect” them.*

Perhaps the Festival of Dangerous Ideas only wanted to promote a greater understanding of the phenomenon of so-called honour killings. If so why not have a talk by sociologists and psychologists?

Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps. Bottom line is this: People were outraged and disgusted. They let the organisers know. The organisers caved and cancelled. That is the market for ideas at work – most people quickly formed the opinion that we were not going to be better off for understanding why some men feel the need to murder women and children. To be sure, our loss.

The irony, of course, for all our lefty friends who have suddenly developed a passion for free speech is that 18c would not prevent the “Honour Killing is Morally Justified” speech from occurring, or protect any of the women who live in fear of their lives should they annoy any man in their family, but it would very likely protect the speaker from any social opprobrium following the actual speech (or in this case before the speech). I have no doubt that the speaker would have a case under 18c against many, even all, of his critics if he choose to bring such an action.

* Next year can we look forward to the talk “It’s okay to rape western women, they’re all sluts anyway”?

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278 Responses to Honour killings and 18c

  1. Notafan

    DrBeau, I noticed on the eleven minutes of his islam and slavery youtube, that I could bear to watch uthman badar constantly compared slavery in islam with slavery in the west.
    He is completely untruthful about both, for example claiming that never ever not once had a westerner (male of course) married his slave (how could he know?) whilst extolling islam where a man, in the absence of a good muslim woman could marry his slave. I saw no mention of coercion etc not to mention the reiteration of the myth that islamic slaves are/were treated as members of the family.
    The constant comparisons with western civilisation underscore the inferiority complex. Why could he not simply discuss islamic slavery on its own?
    I wish someone with the appropriate skills would respond to him.
    He has insinuated himself into university life to proletize and indoctrinate anyone foolish to listen with his brand of islam.
    He can do what he likes in his own time at his own expense but if he is being allowed to use university facilities that should stop.

  2. I reckon we ask him get his mates together so they can stone a few women, and then we put him up against Kae with an SLR.

    Kae, I think the Cat collective just voted for you to be given a stoning.

  3. boy on a bike

    * That is not a death threat.

  4. A Lurker

    @ Mk50 of Brisbane, thanks for the detailed and considered reply. I have been away from the computer all day and have only now had opportunity to sit down and read the thread.

  5. boy on a bike

    Honour killings. Not so long ago indig girls who slept with a man from the wrong skin had a bleak future. Still happens occasionally.

    Quite so.

    A friend of Mum was a product of such a liaison. She was grabbed by a whitefalla as the elders of her tribe were preparing to bury her alive (as a baby).

    She attempted to explain this situation to the stolen generations mob and was refused a hearing. She was incensed about the label “stolen”. She was eternally thankful she’d be rescued from a barbaric and savage practice.

  6. oldsalt

    I vote we just let asio get on with the job of monitoring campus Islamic societies to protect vulnerable kids from his propaganda. Scoring off him in public debates does us no good, his target is vulnerable Muslim kids in their formative stages, not us.

    With the number of fee paying International students on our campuses now, and the number of campuses here and abroad their parents can choose from, you’d think Vice Chancellors would be more actively protecting their brand because when word gets round that our campuses are rife with this crap rich International parents will just send their kids elsewhere.

  7. calli

    My money is on the kittehs.

    Dr Beau, I can organise the up-to-waist hole (neatly back filled).

    I’m also pretty darn good at pegging stuff at people I don’t like much*. But I would far rather convince him of the error of his ways by less vicious means.

    The question is, is such a person persuadable?

    * NADT

  8. Fisky

    The constant comparisons with western civilisation underscore the inferiority complex. Why could he not simply discuss islamic slavery on its own?

    The obvious question to ask Mr Badar is why he is defending slavery. He must believe in it strongly if he’s prepared to go to such lengths to espouse its benefits.

  9. Rabz

    He must believe in it strongly if he’s prepared to go to such lengths to espouse its benefits.

    Gee, makes you wonder if he might also strongly believe in other ahem, ‘cultural practices’.

  10. JC

    A friend of Mum was a product of such a liaison. She was grabbed by a whitefalla as the elders of her tribe were preparing to bury her alive (as a baby).

    Fme. Really?

    But on second thoughts, its a cultural issue and we shouldn’t interfere.

  11. Tel

    Social pressure is not an abridgement of free speech.

    Well said, might take you a while to explain the bleeding obvious to Cricket & co.

    These dullards oppose social pressure, and cheer on government enforced speech.

    How dare they claim any ownership of free speech.

    I rather suspect there isn’t much limit to what they will claim ownership of, and that would be the heart of the problem I guess.

  12. Aristogeiton

    [C]ould you declare, with anything approaching moral seriousness, that honour killings are sometimes morally permissible? I don’t see how.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-25/stokes-dangerous-ideas-honour-killings-and-moral-seriousness/5549432

  13. Notafan

    I’m not convinced that it is a matter only for ASIO.
    The public also need to be aware of what is going on on university campuses.

  14. boy on a bike

    Uthman Badar and his mates are walking down the road when they hear a voice from the other side of a fence call out, “One red headed Aussie woman is worth 10 of you woman-stoning cowards”. Uthman orders 10 of his friends to gather some rocks, jump the fence and sort her out.

    There is a series of loud bangs, some screams, and then silence.

    The voice calls out again. “One blood nutted Aussie woman is worth 100 of you gay-hating head bangers”. Uthman orders 100 of his friends to gather up even more rocks, jump the fence and sort her out.

    There is a very long series of loud bangs, some screams, and then silence.

    Before the voice can call out again, Uthman gets on his mobile and rounds up 1000 of his mates. They come armed with a truck load of stones, jump the fence and carry on.

    The banging goes on for a very long time. The screams eventually subside to moans, and then even they disappear into silence.

    A very bloody, quite bedraggled bloke drags himself over the wall and falls at Uthman’s feet.

    “It’s a trap!’, he wails.

    “There are two of them”.

  15. cohenite

    Interesting article by Stokes on Badar; Stokes says:

    Undeniably, our cultural and religious traditions provide much of the raw content of our moral concepts. But part of moral seriousness is a commitment to the idea that morality is not simply a function of those traditions, but the standard by which we in turn judge culture or religion.

    Take away the view that moral reality transcends culture, and you take away the very idea of moral progress

    And thus rebuts Foucault.

    Stokes is wrong however in applying the Euphythro Problem to Badar and islam more generally. Religious conviction of the sort which Badar and islam manifest suffers no doubt. And therein lies the virtue of a secular democracy with the usual checks and balances; it is the structure not the ideas which matter; the Western structure tolerates ideas, islam does not and is thus reduced to a perpetual power struggle as acolytes of that one idea use the idea to justify their power dominance. In that way Badar’s slavery, honour killings, beheadings and the rest of the atrocious behaviour of islam can be seen merely as methods for implementing and maintaining the power dominance which is the idea of islam.

    In the normal course of events Badar would continue to be constrained by Western democracy as on this occasion; but since Islam’s population is expanding at 10 times the population of the West the ability of the West to continue to constrain the likes of Badar will inevitably diminish.

    The little creep has been beaten this time but his time will come.

  16. DrBeauGan

    I’d expect a presentation of this creeps views on the cat, together with comments, to interest a fair number of people. And to be well publicised outside.And maybe seen by university administrators to advantage.
    Calli, you’re supposed to ARGUE with him. At first, anyway.
    Notafan, I think you’d get questions answered by people here. Slavery in the West covers a lot of ground. Check out Vespasian and his lass.
    Mk50, yes he probably would refuse. But that would be on the record.

    I like giving arseholes every opportunity to make their case. It’s true that anyone with half a brain can see this guy is one, but that leaves a lot of low-info voters not noticing. Publicity is what he should have. Enough to bury him in Calli’s garden.

  17. oldsalt

    Fair enough notafan. Badar is a propagandist. Longstaff should never have given him a platform and nor should we. We aren’t his target audience, we shouldn’t engage in counter propaganda.

    The Left love his type. Speaks good English, can debate us on our own terms, somebody we can ‘engage’ with. This is how propaganda gets a place at the table.

    His target is vulnerable Muslim youth in their formative years, who should be studying and not subjected to his malicious mind games. They should be protected from him. He should be kept away from campuses. Latrine duty til he desists.

  18. Notafan

    Thankyou, I think part of the problem is that there is no debate and no public rebuttal of misrepresentations of history.
    We also have a lot of information about western history and very little information about islamic history.
    It’s easy to point at slavery in the US, for example, because their descendants lived to tell the tale, and keep it to the fore, whereas so few survived islamic slavery and I include Arabic and Ottoman slavery here, and so little is recorded that most Anglo celts people would not be aware how recently slavery, as in complete legal ownership has existed in the ME and still does, in.one or two countries, on the quiet. Eastern Europe, Greece and some parts of southern Europe would have some knowledge.
    That allows Badar and his ilk to whitewash muslim history.
    Plus we live with the threat of legal sanctions under 18c.
    By the way, does anyone know what ‘islamic science’ is?

  19. oldsalt

    Slavery still exists on one of the islands closest to us, Sumba. It was a traditional target for slavers, Arabs traded in slaves and horses there. They sold guns to rival chiefs, who took prisoners of war and exchanged them for more guns.

    Well heeled Sumbanese families continue to own a servant, who may or may not be treated as a part of the extended family. The most egregious among its contemporary manifestations is the trafficking of young women to Malaysia and the Middle East. It’s no secret, people in the Provincial capital are embarrassed and claim it has a degree of cultural acceptability difficult to eradicate. A case for Twiggy Forrest.

  20. MemoryVault

    oldsalt
    #1361181, posted on June 26, 2014 at 9:53 pm

    Sorry, Oldsalt,
    I follow you on Sumba. But I completely miss the connection to Twiggy.
    I thought his main claim to fame was killing off his employees and avoiding responsibility for it by having them work for wholly-owned, but arms-length subsidiaries.

  21. oldsalt

    Twiggy’s just been to the Vatican, he’s got a project to eradicate slavery.

  22. Fisky

    Thankyou, I think part of the problem is that there is no debate and no public rebuttal of misrepresentations of history.

    There is that. But there is also the problem that a lot of people don’t understand how logic works. And they don’t know what are the right questions to ask. Once you understand that Mr Badar’s first principle is that all the moral precepts in the Koran and Hadith are correct as they are written and never to be amended, there is no need to allow him to compare Islam at its peak with the contemporaneous West, because that isn’t actually what he’s about. He is really saying that Islam at its peak was a preferable society to the modern world. So that is the comparison that he must be forced to make, because the modern world faces no theological constraints to change anymore, but Islam does.

    So the correct comparison is not Islamic slavery versus Western slavery, because he doesn’t actually believe Islamic slavery is morally wrong, whereas Westerners came to believe about 200 years ago that slavery WAS wrong. The correct comparison is between Islamic slavery and the equal protection of the law, and to ask him why he wants to abolish the latter.

  23. Fisky

    I like giving arseholes every opportunity to make their case.

    It’s important with the Far Left as well. THR’s presence on this blog was a gift for as long as it lasted, because a lot of rank-and-file conservatives gained valuable insights into how the Far Left operate that they never would have otherwise.

  24. MT Isa Miner

    JC

    #1361053, posted on June 26, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    A friend of Mum was a product of such a liaison. She was grabbed by a whitefalla as the elders of her tribe were preparing to bury her alive (as a baby).

    Fme. Really?

    But on second thoughts, its a cultural issue and we shouldn’t interfere.

    My late father inlaw running cattle properties in the NT from the 30′s used to try and give “yella fellas” jobs because they weren’t initiated and had no place in the tribe. He knew of Aborigines killing half-caste/mixed race babies. Then again, it was cultural practice to kill babies when food got tight anyway- so so biggie, right?

  25. Notafan

    I think it is worth mentioning that not only young muslims are targeted on campus but there would be active proletizing for converts as well.
    How many converts have popped up in Australia as involved in terrorism attempts, at least one killed in Syria and another was whipped under Sharia law.
    Australian law is used when there is an advantage to be gained, otherwise it is ignored.
    Thankyou Fisky we should be very clear about what living under a caliphate means for women and non muslims, in particular.

  26. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Cohenite:

    Stokes is wrong however in applying the Euphythro Problem to Badar and islam more generally. Religious conviction of the sort which Badar and islam manifest suffers no doubt. And therein lies the virtue of a secular democracy with the usual checks and balances; it is the structure not the ideas which matter; the Western structure tolerates ideas, islam does not and is thus reduced to a perpetual power struggle as acolytes of that one idea use the idea to justify their power dominance.

    Agreed, with the addition that the islamist world-view is both zero-sum-game and partially mercantilist (the part about protectionism and accumulating profitable balances which they believe to be depriving non-islamics of their wealth). They actually believe that wealth cannot be created, that there’s a finite amount of it. This automatically means that a struggle for religious supremacy inside islam is simultaneously a struggle for wealth. Which explains some of the ferocity. None of this is new – look at Sultan Selim the Sot’s treatment of the Venetian Republic in the 16th century before Lepanto.

    In that way Badar’s slavery, honour killings, beheadings and the rest of the atrocious behaviour of islam can be seen merely as methods for implementing and maintaining the power dominance which is the idea of islam.

    Agreed.

    In the normal course of events Badar would continue to be constrained by Western democracy as on this occasion; but since Islam’s population is expanding at 10 times the population of the West the ability of the West to continue to constrain the likes of Badar will inevitably diminish.

    Not agreed.

    Islam’s population is not expanding this quickly at all overall, and where it is expanding it is uneducated welfare drones (in the west) or illiterate goat-herders in the worst of third-world hell holes. Population increase right along the Arab Shore (north Africa) is dropping rapidly to western levels. They will get old before they get rich. Saudi Arabia is worse. They are already old and corrupt, and most of their ‘educated’ young are mere Koran-memorisers. They have less genuine human capital than Singapore, an eighth their population. Their native population are basically parasitic.

    Their time passed long ago, actually during that whole war for the central sea phase, Prevesa to Lepanto. They were an utter irrelevance until oil. They will become irrelevant again after their easy-and-cheap-to-extract oil runs out.

    Dr BG:

    I like giving arseholes every opportunity to make their case. It’s true that anyone with half a brain can see this guy is one, but that leaves a lot of low-info voters not noticing. Publicity is what he should have. Enough to bury him in Calli’s garden

    Absolutely. I enjoin Sinc to make him the offer to argue his case here. I believe he will refuse.

    Fisky:

    The correct comparison is between Islamic slavery and the equal protection of the law, and to ask him why he wants to abolish the latter.

    That’s a telling point.

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