Jeremy Sammut on “honour killing”

In a forthcoming article in Quadrant magazine, I argue that Section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act should be repealed so that controversial issues of national importance such as Aboriginal identity and multiculturalism can be freely debated.

Having staked out this position in favour of free speech, criticising the Festival of Dangerous Ideas (FODI) for inviting a member of the radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir to explain why ‘Honour killings are morally justified’ appears to leave one open to the charge of hypocrisy.

Following a public outcry, FODI’s management quickly announced the invitation had been withdrawn and the session cancelled. This is not a form of censorship, and questioning the appropriateness of discussing the proposed topic in the proposed forum was never a matter of curbing free speech.

What has finally been corrected is a terrible lapse in judgment (as well as taste) by the organisers.

The first lapse in judgment involved the inappropriate use of a public institution – the Sydney Opera House.

Using this venue to provide a platform for a zealot and ideologue who seeks to justify and excuse murder is not just inappropriate – it’s an intolerable violation of the basic principles of a free and democratic society.

No citizen should have to endure the state’s resources being deployed against their fundamental rights and vital interests in such a manner. That is to say that taxpayers’ money should not be used to help promote ideas that are ‘dangerous’ (i.e. fatal) for Muslim females who simply wish to enjoy the personal freedoms that others take for granted.

If a private venue or organisation thought it worthwhile to host a public discussion justifying honour killing, this would be another matter. They would bear both the cost and the responsibility, and would run the reputational risk of being associated with the speaker and their repugnant views.

But I suspect that most private venues or organisations would exercise good judgment. They would not want to be seen as responsible for bringing into the public domain the idea that hacking girls to death for having sex before marriage or for not agreeing to a forced marriage is somehow (as the FODI session blurb suggested) a legitimate cultural and/or religious practice that should be respected in a multicultural society.

This identifies the second lapse in intellectual judgment by FODI’s organisers. In their misguided attempt to ‘push the boundaries’ and stimulate discussion of a so-called controversial issue, they do not appear to have understood what a truly dangerous idea, as opposed to a vile and noxious idea, actually is.

The fact is that not all questions are worth asking and not all answers are worth listening too.

A dangerous idea worth discussing is one that challenges a prevailing orthodoxy and which, if implemented, would generate public and/or private benefits, without generating public or private harms to others.

It should go without saying, but honour killings comprehensively fail this test.

It is disturbing that the Sydney Opera House and the St James Ethics Centre – organisations that claim to provide cultural and thought leadership – failed to understand why it was not worth talking about justifying the murder of women just because they happen to be born as Muslims.

Source: Ideas@TheCentre

While I don’t disagree with what Jeremy says – I have a slightly different take. Men who murder women or even threaten to murder women because they want to wear lipstick, or wear pants, or get a drivers license, or won’t participate in an arranged marriage, or whatever, are not being moral or ethical or anything. They are just bullies. We don’t have to dignify the practice of “honour killing” with being an Islamic practice. I have no doubt that millions of Moslems are as appalled and horrified by the practice as anyone and everyone else. Women and girls have been murdered by their husbands or fathers or relatives (more generally) in every time and place. To argue that this is morally or ethically or religiously appropriate is just rubbish. There is nothing wrong in telling people that murder is crime and criminals will be hunted down and punished for their crimes. We should make no apologies for that stance and accept no excuses or diversions from that stance.

This entry was posted in Cultural Issues. Bookmark the permalink.

170 Responses to Jeremy Sammut on “honour killing”

  1. Clam Chowdah

    If Badar (and the FODI twats) were seeking a public outcry over Islam that he/they could spin as Islamophobia, then they’ve made an error of judgement, technically. Since honour killings are a cultural practice that are not sanctioned in Islam, a fact Badar would know, then any criticism of the practice is a comment on cultures in which the practice is more prevalent (Jordan/Palestine/Pakistan) rather than the religion. I suppose he’s relying on the Australian mainstream not knowing that distinction, and the rest of the Muslim community not speaking out to make that clear. (Although I note several Sydney community members called into Steve Price/Bolt on 25 June to point it out but were hardly fluent in their contributions).

  2. stackja

    To argue that this is morally or ethically or religiously appropriate is just rubbish. There is nothing wrong in telling people that murder is crime and criminals will be hunted down and punished for their crimes. We should make no apologies for that stance and accept no excuses or diversions from that stance.

    Murder is murder.

  3. Baldrick

    There is no justification for murder, committed on religious, cultural or political grounds.

  4. rebel with cause

    Apparently some on the left think that the correct response to a talk entitled ‘why honour killings are morally justified’ should be to tell everyone to quiet down so we can hear the man speak.

    That’s not how the marketplace of ideas works. The market doesn’t care about equality, it doesn’t believe that everyone deserves five minutes on the mic, it won’t force us to listen to people discussing ideas we detest, etc. The market functions on voluntary actions.

    Badar lost in the marketplace of ideas because his idea sucks. He complains that he got shut down before he got his say. Too bad champ! Nobody wants to buy what you are selling.

    Imagine the inventor of a crummy, deadly dangerous product complaining that nobody wanted to buy his product. You’d hope he’d be laughed out of town. Our lefty friends seem to think we should que up to buy.

  5. ar

    “Honour killing” needs the “coward’s punch” treatment…

  6. Poor Old Rafe

    In distant Arizona I heard some of the callers on the Price/Bolt show. They were “off the street” and they spoke straight from the heart, with the voice of reason. They did not give the polished performance that might be expected from official representatives with prepared statements or at least speaking notes. More credit to them!!

  7. Fibro

    FODI got exactly what they wanted- publicity.
    Hizb ut-Tahrir got what they wanted- publicity.
    It was never going to go ahead regardless.

    Islam is 2.2% of the population according to the 2011 census, yet seems to be 22% of every single news and current affairs program in this country. They run a very smart media campaign and we buy it all.

    That being said, I would have paid to watch Badar and Geert Wilders on the same stage.

  8. cuckoo

    Some dangerous ideas that are just too extreme for any of these lefty love-ins:

    Tony Abbott may not actually be the Antichrist/Cthulhu
    A country probably can’t borrow its way out of debt
    The Greens might just actually be deranged

  9. Fisky

    The Muslim community didn’t cop much flak over this but a few slippery MB apologists were flushed out.

  10. Token

    In distant Arizona I heard some of the callers on the Price/Bolt show. They were “off the street” and they spoke straight from the heart, with the voice of reason. They did not give the polished performance that might be expected from official representatives with prepared statements or at least speaking notes. More credit to them!!

    It was interesting to hear how powerless and desperate they felt. They voiced real frustration toward the leadership of their religion who continual take the Waleed Aly route when such issues arise.

    It was both distressing (to hear how powerless they feel) and reassuring (knowing they are angry).

  11. MemoryVault

    Apart from Badar and Longstaff and a few bolted-on lefties, just about every man and his dog has now expressed their disgust at this attempt to sugar-coat the barbaric custom of “honour killings”. Even the peak Board of Imams have belatedly added their criticism.

    The exception, of course, is that motley, spineless, useless bunch of public trough snufflers, aka The Australian Federal Parliament.

    If ever there was an issue in the last decade that should have seen Abbott, Shorten and Milne on a podium together, issuing a joint, bipartisan statement expressing – on behalf of all Australians – our collective disgust and rejection of something, this was it.

    Instead we got crickets chirping.

    I forget who it is that keeps posting that this country is now a toilet, but they’re right.
    And our Federal Parliament is the sewerage treatment plant.

    Oliver Cromwell, where are you when we need you?

    ————————————————–

    It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice.

    Ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government.

    Ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

    Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess?

    Ye have no more religion than my horse. Gold is your God. Which of you have not bartered your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

    Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defiled this sacred place, and turned the Lord’s temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices?

    Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation. You were deputed here by the people to get grievances redressed, are yourselves become the greatest grievance.

    Your country therefore calls upon me to cleanse this Augean stable, by putting a final period to your iniquitous proceedings in this House; and which by God’s help, and the strength he has given me, I am now come to do.

    I command ye therefore, upon the peril of your lives, to depart immediately out of this place.

    Go, get you out! Make haste! Ye venal slaves be gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

    In the name of God, go!

  12. Leo G

    There is nothing wrong in telling people that murder is crime and criminals will be hunted down and punished for their crimes. We should make no apologies for that stance and accept no excuses or diversions from that stance.

    On the other hand, why is there an assumption that Muslims may be due an apology for our stance? After all, the stance is in line with what we know of the “Law of Abraham”- which I expect Muslims accept. Even the Code of Hammurabi generally proscribed murder and did not appear to protect tribal “honour killing”.
    Surely, the ethical framework of “honour crimes” is not in the domain of any civilised society- what civil code could include such a degenerate influence? Should any civil society continue to accept such a challenge from tribalism?

  13. Infidel Tiger

    The Muslim community didn’t cop much flak over this but a few slippery MB apologists were flushed out.

    Eva Cox and the Frightbats?

  14. Gab

    Wally Aly was silent on the matter even when asked about it.

  15. Clam Chowdah

    There is no justification for murder, committed on religious, cultural or political grounds.

    Duh.

  16. Clam Chowdah

    In distant Arizona I heard some of the callers on the Price/Bolt show. They were “off the street” and they spoke straight from the heart, with the voice of reason. They did not give the polished performance that might be expected from official representatives with prepared statements or at least speaking notes. More credit to them!!

    Yes, I agree. Since then, we have at least had spokesmen from some of the communities come out and say Badar and his kind should STFU or even be banned. That’s a positive development – speaking out against these hijackers. But where’s Waleed Aly in all this?

  17. Gab

    the Muslim community not speaking out to make that clear. (Although I note several Sydney community members called into Steve Price/Bolt on 25 June to point it out but were hardly fluent in their contributions).

    Yes I heard them as well. None of them could answer Price’s question as the why not one Islamic representative council/organization or public individual such as Aly or his wife or a mufti or Imam made any comment about Badar’s position that these murders are morally justified. Makes you wonder just how representative these Islamic councils and associations are? (I assume they are taxpayer-funded).

  18. Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    Great MAN Cromwell! How the hell could he describe Austalian politicians so well? Its uncanny he descrbes them to a tee,nearly 400 years ago.long before Australia was invented.he was a Great MAN,clearing the rubbish out of Parliament,if you did that here today Parliament house would be a very lonely place!

  19. cohenite

    Waleed Aly, a moderate muslim if ever there was one.

    The problem for muslims who complain, belatedly, about the dog badar, is that they are subject to the accusation of Taqiyya and Kitman, or lying to the infidel for the good of the cause; or if they are genuine to very real payback of the kind now being demonstrated in Iraq.

    The problem will remain until from within islam there is a concerted push for any demand for sharia to be defeated and expressions made and acceptance of the superiority of the Western system.

    Just to refresh everyone’s memory as to why the Western system is superior; it is superior because it separates state and church. Unless islam can accede to that they will win on numbers and not just badar but every dog will have his day.

  20. Joe Goodacre

    I agree with separating condemnation of honour killing with the condemnation of Islam. My understanding is that honour killing isn’t condoned in the Koran and is condemned by other Muslims.

    http://www.questionsaboutislam.com/women-in-islam/islam-honour-killing.php

  21. Gab

    OT.

    Concerned about the number of Canadians leaving to join armed factions in Syria, imams from across the country have issued a statement warning Muslim youths against travelling abroad to fight in foreign conflicts.

    Drafted at a meeting two weeks ago, the decree issued by the Canadian Council of Imams says those who participate in overseas wars are breaking the laws of Canada and violating Islamic principles.

    “Canadian Muslims are law-abiding citizens and no one should get involved in international wars on the belief and excuse that they are helping their Muslim brothers,” reads the statement. “Canadian Muslims who might do this are promoting disloyalty to their government.”

    Would be reassuring to see something similar from the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, the Islamic Association of Australia etc..

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/26/canadian-imam-group-warns-muslim-youths-that-no-one-should-get-involved-in-international-wars/

  22. Joe Goodacre

    FODI got exactly what they wanted- publicity.

    True. Possibly explains why Simon came on the Cat as well.

    Quite a successful PR endeavour in hindsight.

  23. Joe Goodacre

    That’s great news from Canada Gab

  24. Clam Chowdah

    Waleed Aly is a left wing rent seeking parasite who uses his ethnic “other” identity to get the elite to kiss his hairy arse. He does not represent anyone and he is not subject to any of the issues hysterically identified by the bigot Cohenite. Again, in his rush to rally Cats to his racist flag, Cohenite engages in fantasies worthy of the Protocols. Fucking dick. To repeat: Waleed Aly is a rent-seeker. Nothing more, nothing less. Use empirical observation and get your hand off your tiny cock.

    The callers to 2GB were representative of the community but as noted they aren’t leadership. It’s the leadership who are out of touch and locked into political second-guessing and, I suspect, fear of public shaming by the minority ratbags like Badar and the violent fringe. They are cowards, and for the same reason that it’s rare that we see union whistleblowers. Stick your head up and the bully boys will kick it in.

  25. Jeremy Sammut

    Sinclair,
    Couldn’t agree more. Cheers, Jeremy

  26. cohenite

    If you weren’t such a morally superior pus-bucket chowdah you’d have the wit to realise your last point was the point I was making.

    And islam is not a race you fuckwit.

  27. JC

    I’d happily send the entire greens party to go fight in Iraq or Syria. It would do tubbsie a lot of good and bandt may even man up.

  28. JC

    Call it the green platoon.

  29. MsDolittle

    I agree with separating condemnation of honour killing with the condemnation of Islam. My understanding is that honour killing isn’t condoned in the Koran and is condemned by other Muslims.

    I need more than just that separation. There is so many other things wrong with Islam.

  30. Clam Chowdah

    And islam is not a race you fuckwit.

    Correct (well done). But you are a racist.

  31. Eric Crampton

    I would have been genuinely interested to hear how they justify this reprehensible activity.

  32. Bill

    This is a list of corporate and public sector sponsors of the St James Ethics Centre:- AMP, ABC, Australian Unity, BHP, City of Sydney, GPT, Grocon, Investec, JP Morgan, Police Credit Union, Ernst & Young. (I left out a few I’d never heard of).

    I wonder if they intend to continue to support apologists for premeditated murders.

  33. .

    City of Sydney

    The St James centre asserts it is independent and free from government funding.

  34. MsDolittle

    I would have been genuinely interested to hear how they justify this reprehensible activity.

    Me too.

  35. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    JC:

    Call it the green platoon.

    There’s a LOt of teh sods.

    Call it the Tubbsy’s Squealer Brigade.

  36. Leo G

    Call it the green platoon.

    Renewable energy targets.

  37. Ivan Denisovich

    I have no doubt that millions of Moslems are as appalled and horrified by the practice as anyone and everyone else.

    True, but the problem is that the surveys I’ve seen have consistently revealed that the minority in much of the west who want Sahria and endorse terrorist acts is so large.

    I agree with separating condemnation of honour killing with the condemnation of Islam.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/so_quick_to_excuse_the_religion_which_excuses_the_stoning/

  38. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Sinc

    Serious question.

    Why not invite Badar to put his case here?

  39. Clam Chowdah

    Me too.

    Cultural barbarism by primitives that can never be explained or justified. I don’t think he ever wanted to explain it – he just wanted to shwack Western society with a crude moral equivalence stick about Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. A free kick.

    What is more interesting to me is how the FODI can justify hopping in to bed with this vile totalitarian turd.

  40. Leo G

    Why not invite Badar to put his case here?

    Is an invitation necessary?

  41. Clam Chowdah

    Why not invite Badar to put his case here?

    And allow him and his ilk, and FODI, ABC, and Fairfax to “prove” via Cohenite’s guaranteed bad behaviour that the Cat are bigots. Great idea.

  42. Token

    …he just wanted to shwack Western society with a crude moral equivalence stick about Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. A free kick.

    One of the weekend Cat contributors presented video evidence of how he placed hard questions to a panel of Waleed Aly’s the day before the ISIL videos went viral, the answers were all about blaming the west and placing equivilancy with Isreal/US.

    They refused to address the question as they proceeded to work through the “we are victims of islamophobic westerners” bulls*** they know by rote.

  43. MsDolittle

    Why not invite Badar to put his case here?

    Bunnings may have a run on cable ties and gaffa tape as people self censor, great idea though.

  44. Clam Chowdah

    Where’s Waleed?

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/jailing-of-peter-greste-in-egypt-reveals-principles-are-the-first-casualty-in-the-war-on-terror-20140626-zsm1y.html

    Using the Peter Greste conviction to have another whack, naturally. In some far-out, left-wing alternate universe, prior Western criticism of Al Jazeera socialised Egyptian society to the point where the judiciary’s risible hijinks are acceptable.

    Twat. Uninformed, clueless, ungrateful, parasitical, twat.

  45. DrBeauGan

    ‘Eva Cox and the Frightbats’. Great name for a band.

  46. Clam Chowdah

    Token – where’s that link? Love to see it.

  47. Leo G

    And allow him and his ilk, and FODI, ABC, and Fairfax to “prove” via Cohenite’s guaranteed bad behaviour that the Cat are bigots(?)

    The word “bigot” was originally used to marginalise dissenters. Those accused of bigotry can be good company.

  48. Clam Chowdah

    The word “bigot” was originally used to marginalise dissenters. Those accused of bigotry can be good company.

    Too funny.

  49. srr

    If you weren’t such a morally superior pus-bucket chowdah you’d have the wit to realise your last point was the point I was making.

    And islam is not a race you fuckwit.

    Imagine if all the public, business and scammed funds that went into building megaMosques for 1 or 2 hundred fanatical Muslims, to herd thousands of dumb, angry, disaffected, young male converts into, went to building safe houses in gated communities for women, children and men, desperate to escape Islam.

    Where do AUSTRALIAN Muslims NEEDING TO ESCAPE their dangerously fanatical, numerically massive, Muslim families, GO?

    Any Ethical, Non-religious, publicly & privately funded, morally driven networks of intellectuals, doing anything about that? Kicking off some crowd funding, maybe?

  50. cohenite

    But you are a racist.

    Oh of course for thinking that islam is a blight and that moderation is a contradiction in terms for those who practise it.

    guaranteed bad behaviour

    What a tool you are.

    Questions for not for badar because we know what his and Hizb ut-Tahrir’s views are, but for any prominent muslim especially Ed Husic, notably silent while all this bullshit has been taking place, and also notables like Burnside who has appeared at ABC hosted debates with badar on the topic of why we need blasphemy laws [God and his prophets should be protected from insult] :

    1 Do you accept the primacy of the laws of the land.

    2 Do you accept the separation of church and state

    3 Do you accept the equality of women

    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals

    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

  51. cohenite

    The link to Burnside and his siding with badar in the debate about God and his prophets should be protected from insult here.

  52. Token

    Token – where’s that link? Love to see it.

    Try the 2nd vid at this link

  53. srr

    This is a list of corporate and public sector sponsors of the St James Ethics Centre:- AMP, ABC, Australian Unity, BHP, City of Sydney, vGPT, Grocon, Investec, JP Morgan, Police Credit Union, Ernst & Young. (I left out a few I’d never heard of).

    I wonder if they intend to continue to support apologists for premeditated murders.

    The Rise of Middle Easter Crime in Australia, by Tim Priest
    http://www.australian-news.net/Tim_Priest.htm

    Doesn’t this make so much more sense now; not just the insanity of the enforced policies that nurtured it, but how hard it was to spread, let alone make go viral, on social media.

  54. MemoryVault

    srr
    #1361994, posted on June 27, 2014 at 4:45 pm

    Where do AUSTRALIAN Muslims NEEDING TO ESCAPE their dangerously fanatical, numerically massive, Muslim families, GO?

    You’ve got to be kidding, right?

    Protecting wimminses from domestic violence (which they invariably return to anyway), is a major growth industry in this country. Has been for over thirty years.

  55. Clam Chowdah

    The five questions you post are all excellent. That’s not my problem. My problem is with your inability to engage in a way that won’t discredit the serious people on this site by association. You lack a filter.

  56. rebel with cause

    Badar has already nailed his colours to the mast on this one: if you don’t agree with him you are an Islamaphobe.

  57. MemoryVault

    3 Do you accept the equality of women

    My mum always said this was BS.
    Claimed she’d never met a man who was her equal.
    She was Company Secretary for a major mining company at the time.

  58. Leo G

    Burnside and his siding with badar in the debate about God and his prophets should be protected from insult …”

    Only a deist could propose such a debate.

  59. Joe Goodacre

    Claimed she’d never met a man who was her equal.

    Seems a bit of a slap against your dad?

  60. srr

    OMG! SJEC can’t even pretend to fair & balanced in it’s ‘debate’ FOR CRIMINALISING Australians who “insult”=Refuse To Revere Mohammed!

    The proposition that we’re debating in this edition of the show is that ‘God and His Prophets Should be Protected from Insult’.

    We tackle the non contentious issues here! This is, of course, one of our IQ2 Debates, and it goes to the heart of the matter about freedom of speech and whether we need to tread carefully around religious sensibilities and what constitutes vilification and denigration.

    Just who or what should we be protecting?

    Arguing for the motion is Uthman Badar, the spokesman for the radical muslim group, Hizb ut-Tahrir. They advocate the re-establishment of the Islamic Caliphate.

    Also arguing for the motion is Julian Burnside, a Melbourne barrister and prominent human rights advocate. He’s been a particularly vocal advocate for the rights of asylum seekers arriving by boat.

    Arguing against the motion is Yassmin Abdel-Magied, founder of Youth Without Borders, a group that enables young people to work for positive change within their communities.
    Yassmin is joined by renowned writer and Booker Prize winner, Thomas Keneally.

    Moderating this stellar line-up is Dr Simon Longstaff from the St James Ethics Centre.

  61. Gab

    You lack a filter.

    Yes, that’s what this place needs, an internet filter :roll:

  62. outsider

    You would think a little reflection is in order for the west-based Islamic activists, like Badar. Ask him to point to a model Islamic dominated nation. Don’t they notice Islam only contributes intellectual sloth, confrontation and backwardness to the world? The strong suit is violence, of course. SBS News should be renamed: Islamic chaos today.

    Badar looked particularly uncomfortable on the news the day it broke, it looks a lot like an own goal by all concerned. If more people get to see what they are up to and what they want to introduce, we may see more public opposition.

  63. Gab

    The problem for muslims who complain, belatedly, about the dog badar, is that they are subject to the accusation of Taqiyya and Kitman,

    True.

    or if they are genuine to very real payback of the kind now being demonstrated in Iraq.

    Also true.

    The problem will remain until from within islam there is a concerted push for any demand for sharia to be defeated and expressions made and acceptance of the superiority of the Western system.

    True. A reformation is needed, from within. I doubt it will ever occur.

    Just to refresh everyone’s memory as to why the Western system is superior; it is superior because it separates state and church. Unless islam can accede to that they will win on numbers and not just badar but every dog will have his day.

    All true. That the general non-Muslim populace voiced their disgust at Badar’s proposition can only provide moderate Muslims the support to speak out, such as those callers to Price.

  64. cohenite

    You lack a filter.

    Seriously, you’re talking about euphemisms, being diplomatic, measured, that sort of thing; opening a fucking discourse with Boko Harum. Of course you’d say the average Australian muslim is different wouldn’t you; tell that to Liz Hayes.

    This is the point, morally superior idiots like chowdah continually default to the mass of moderate muslims living somewhere in his indignant imagination and who share his concern about the badars of islam, but apart from a few call-ins and begrudging and belated statements by muslim bodies all we ever see are the badars.

    For those here who think there is some hope that from within islam, particularly its intellectuals, a truly peaceful religion consistent with Western democracy will emerge this should be compulsory reading; its by an Islamic academic yassir morsi

    Morsi says:

    This act of distancing ourselves from troublesome Muslims has become more and more common, but, from yesterday it is becoming part of our future planning. In response to Saturday’s riots, The Australian reported how Islamic leaders were calling for a halt to all future demonstrations. When considering the past ten years this call was the logic of society over-policing the Muslim.

    The passivity hidden within the insecure ‘image’ driven moderate Muslim expresses itself best through the conservative clerics who call for calm and no protests. The logic follows that all forms of resistance, in a nuanced community, has its fringe and ugly quality, and thus the best way to get rid of the fringe and ugly is to get rid of the whole act of protesting.

    Now Muslims are convincing themselves that the act of not protesting against an Islamophobic film is the ultimate act of protesting against a film. They have figured out that passivity is the only form of resistance.

    Could it be that our community leadership have over time reached a silent compromise: we will trade in our political voice for a fragile security. How is that a solution?

    To put it most controversially, many Muslims are now trying to rescue a beautiful Islam from an ugly Muslim, or better put: an abstract Islam from the everyday Muslim, an image of their religion divorced from the reality of their religion’s struggles.

    It is so telling, then, that Aly laments the hollowing out of the Muslim condition, a ‘pointlessness’ to it all, yet it is his commentary that signals a growing trend. He holds the spoon that hollows the Muslim out of Islam.

    It represents a moderate movement that assumes the righteousness of resistance exists in perfecting one’s image as a good citizen rather than pushing back the police picket line to create new forms of citizenry.

    We should not be so hard on the protesters for all minorities throughout history fighting for their rights have clashed with police. In every struggle for minds and values there is the struggle of bodies and batons. It happens.

    What do muslims protest about other than to have islam dominate since they are already free to practice islam like any other religion? Answer that chowdah.

  65. .

    1 Do you accept the primacy of the laws of the land.

    2 Do you accept the separation of church and state

    3 Do you accept the equality of women

    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals

    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

    I like this. 4 is critical – 3 may be misused by misandrist loons in their quest to steal off the taxpayer and destroy western masculinity.

  66. Armadillo

    A reformation is needed, from within. I doubt it will ever occur.

    It can’t. There is no hierarchy. There is no structure. There is no accountability.

  67. rickw

    I have no doubt that millions of Moslems are as appalled and horrified by the practice as anyone and everyone else.

    I think you’re wrong, I think the number is far more like 5(five).

  68. calli

    My mum always said this was BS.
    Claimed she’d never met a man who was her equal.
    She was Company Secretary for a major mining company at the time.

    Your mum sounds like my late, and very much missed, mother in law.

    Her greatest achievement, though, was raising a wonderful son (now on the interesting side of 60). Lucky me. :)

  69. MemoryVault

    Seems a bit of a slap against your dad?

    As long as Lillee and Marsh kept taking wickets, West Perth made it into the finals, and some kid left his bike on the footpath outside the local shops from time to time, all was well in my father’s world.

    Mum could make all the claims to intellectual superiority that she liked.
    In dad’s world, it just wasn’t relevant.
    They were simpler times.

  70. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1361998, posted on June 27, 2014 at 4:47 pm
    [...]
    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals

    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

    Is this a joke? What rights of individuals? You will find that most religious beliefs view others as heterodoxical. What is this? Liberty for some and religious freedom for the ordained?

  71. .

    I think you need to elaborate. I can’t see an obvious contradiction.

  72. Leo G

    That the general non-Muslim populace voiced their disgust at Badar’s proposition can only provide moderate Muslims the support to speak out, such as those callers to Price.

    A critical question arises.
    How many of those moderate Muslims, such as those callers to Price, were genuinely observant Muslims? They are the few who are best placed to understand the contradictions in the religious teachings.
    Do they really want to speak to us?

  73. Gab

    How many of those moderate Muslims, such as those callers to Price, were genuinely observant Muslims?

    From memory, two out of the four were.

  74. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1362049, posted on June 27, 2014 at 5:47 pm
    I think you need to elaborate. I can’t see an obvious contradiction.

    Is this for me?

  75. Leo G

    1 Do you accept the primacy of the laws of the land.
    2 Do you accept the separation of church and state
    3 Do you accept the equality of women
    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals
    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

    Prominent Muslims could more honestly answer those questions than some of our ex- PMs.

  76. cohenite

    Is this for me?

    Yes it is you bloviating, pompous twat; and I must insist if you wish to regale me that you not dissemble by using Latin.

  77. Demosthenes

    OMG! SJEC can’t even pretend to fair & balanced in it’s ‘debate’ FOR CRIMINALISING Australians who “insult”=Refuse To Revere Mohammed!

    There were two for and two against. How can you improve on that balance?

    Actually, you may be right. The moderator has a publicly stated position against the proposition, so maybe it was biased, just not in the direction you seem to believe.

  78. Armadillo

    Yes it is you bloviating, pompous twat

    LOL. Stuck his chin right out.

  79. srr


    Where do AUSTRALIAN Muslims NEEDING TO ESCAPE their dangerously fanatical, numerically massive, Muslim families, GO?

    You’ve got to be kidding, right?

    Protecting wimminses from domestic violence (which they invariably return to anyway), is a major growth industry in this country. Has been for over thirty years

    I’m not talking about the, “be taught to hate & blame men & children for everything”, centres.

    I’m not even talking only about women.

    How does a loving Muslim man remove himself, his wife and children, from the ‘radical pressures’ of his ‘radical’ relatives wanting him to ‘radically’ demonstrate a ‘radically’ more ‘devout’ household?

    How does he say,”No!”, to relatives he’s in debt to, who want his young daughters for brides?

    How does a Muslim boy who doesn’t believe in Islam, stand up for his non-Islamic mates and female friends who his ‘radical’ Muslim cousins decide to abuse and even rape? Where does he go if his sense of humanity overruled his sense of self preservation?

    Pretending Good Muslims don’t suffer these dilemmas and worse, on a daily basis, in Australia, is foolish at best, selfishly willfully ignorant, or simply evil.

    How many of the 20 Muslims just back after fighting in Syria, do you think will be preaching Against Jihad to their adoring young ‘devote’ Brothers? How many do you think would survive trying to do so?

  80. Fisky

    1 Do you accept the primacy of the laws of the land.
    2 Do you accept the separation of church and state
    3 Do you accept the equality of women
    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals
    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

    Also

    6 Do you accept the right of individuals to change their religion from Islam to some other religion

    There is one thing missing from these questions though. Which is “In an ideal Islamic state…?”

    It is vital to include that clause, because a lot of slippery MB sympathisers will answer “yes” to those questions on the grounds that we aren’t living in an Islamic country. You absolutely have to tease out their real position by asking whether they support these things in an Islamic country, because then they can’t dodge the issue.

  81. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its
    votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in
    a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic
    apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident
    habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of
    commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the
    followers of the Prophet rule or live.

    A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
    refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that
    in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
    absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine,
    must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of
    Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

    Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the
    influence of the religion paralyses the social development of
    those who follow it.

    No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from
    being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing
    faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa,
    raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that
    Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
    science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
    of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
    Rome.”

    Churchill

  82. Joe Goodacre

    Mum could make all the claims to intellectual superiority that she liked.
    In dad’s world, it just wasn’t relevant.
    They were simpler times.

    Great to hear – how it should be, not being a competition.

    Thanks for sharing.

  83. calli

    Great, timeless quite, Mk50.

    Third para made me think of Ed Husic on Q&A a few weeks ago. He had ample opportunity to denounce certain practices, but he was silent.

    But his bromance with Joshy made it all a okay, I guess.

  84. Leo G

    “… were it not that
    Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the
    science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization
    of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient
    Rome.”

    But now?

  85. calli

    quote…

    And quite so!

  86. cohenite

    That is true Fisky but I am pessimistic that a negotiated settlement with islam is possible.

    The main audience of those questions are the appeasers, for whatever reason, within the West.

    As I say Taqiyya and Kitman subvert any potential conversation with islam; perhaps that should be a further question:

    7 Do you accept that islam is distrusted by the West because of Taqiyya and Kitman?

  87. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362060, posted on June 27, 2014 at 5:58 pm
    Is this for me?

    Yes it is you bloviating, pompous twat; and I must insist if you wish to regale me that you not dissemble by using Latin.

    Well, I would like to hear you marry your concern for liberty with your interest in banning certain types of religious observance…

  88. srr

    There were two for and two against. How can you improve on that balance?

    Besides the already established bias ‘moderator’.

    A Female Muslim & Anglo bloke who wrote the book about a German betraying Nazis to save Jews, were on the, “convince good Muslim men that it’s O.K. to dis Mo & Al”, side!?!

    Against those two ridiculously ‘highly qualified to demand respect’, men!

    The ‘debate’ was lost to imbalance before it started, and was nothing more than a rebuttal practice session for Muslims and their militant Leftist ‘allies’.

  89. MemoryVault

    Within the Christian religion there are a multitude of slightly differing denominations and sects, each with their own slightly different interpretation of the scriptures.

    For instance, in the Assembly of God church (AoG) they believe the Holy Spirit is a person, an entity, a third manifestation of God – God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile, over it the Church of Christ (CoC) they believe the Holy Spirit is simply the manifestation of God’s Will – His “force” if you like. On Sundays each group prays for the salvation of the other.

    Despite this fundamental difference in doctrine, I have never heard of an AoG advocate beheading a CoC believer, let alone the CoC declaring Holy War against the AoG. Or vice versa. Heck, they even tolerate intermarriage between the denominations.

    Meanwhile, in the Moslem world, we have Sunni killing Shia, Shia killing Sunni, different sects of Sunni killing Sunni, different sects of Shia killing Shia, and both Sunni and Shia killing anybody who is not either. They’ve been at it now for going on 1400 years, and they’ve exported this mutual hatred to just about every country that has allowed them a toe-hold.

    Truth is, this whole “honour killing” is a bit of red herring. Truth is, the entire Moslem world could renounce honour killing tomorrow, and it would not make Islam, as it is being practiced today with all its hatreds and murder, any more acceptable in the western world.

    To the woman being raped and murdered, it is somewhat academic as to whether the perpetrators are her family, doing it for “honour”, or her neighbours, because she is the wrong flavour of Islam.

  90. Fisky

    Despite this fundamental difference in doctrine, I have never heard of an AoG advocate beheading a CoC believer, let alone the CoC declaring Holy War against the AoG. Or vice versa. Heck, they even tolerate intermarriage between the denominations.

    That sort of thing did happen, but we’re talking four centuries ago. Christians got over it. Time for Muslims to as well.

  91. Fisky

    That is true Fisky but I am pessimistic that a negotiated settlement with islam is possible.

    I haven’t said anything about a negotiated settlement and nothing I propose assumes such a settlement. I’m only suggesting ways to bait out the MB sympathisers by forcing them to defend their actual ideas, not the ones they deceptively present to Westerners.

  92. Aristogeiton

    Fisky
    #1362082, posted on June 27, 2014 at 6:27 pm
    [...]
    That sort of thing did happen, but we’re talking four centuries ago. Christians got over it. Time for Muslims to as well.

    +1. The laws of the land demand it.

  93. cohenite

    Well, I would like to hear you marry your concern for liberty with your interest in banning certain types of religious observance…

    This is the conversation that needs to be had. And it would be good if it could be had without certain moralising pygmies raising the irrelevant point of racism and the quaint objection of bad manners.

    I would simply say 2 things.

    Firstly a right given cannot be given to something which takes away the capacity to give that right. Islam does that and we must turn to Popper and not tolerating the intolerant.

    Secondly, that which is of value must always be protected. How do you propose to protect your libertarian virtue from islam or do you think islam has a capacity to be libertarian?

  94. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362086, posted on June 27, 2014 at 6:28 pm
    [...]
    Firstly a right given cannot be given to something which takes away the capacity to give that right. Islam does that and we must turn to Popper and not tolerating the intolerant.

    I don’t agree with Popper, but who is proposing that such a right be given? Nobody here, that’s for sure.

    Secondly, that which is of value must always be protected. How do you propose to protect your libertarian virtue from islam or do you think islam has a capacity to be libertarian?

    The value which must be protected is individual liberty. If religion can be practiced without harm to my fellows, then who am I to deny that right? And it can, and is.

  95. MemoryVault

    That sort of thing did happen, but we’re talking four centuries ago. Christians got over it.

    You are only partly right, Fisky. True, European Christians had their “religious wars”. But in most cases in reality these were actually wars about territory and sovereignty, neatly wrapped up in the stained glass of the Church to justify conscription and taxes to the peasant masses.

    Conversely, a Shia has no need of a “call to arms” by some all-powerful leader, to slit the throat of his Sunni neighbour – or vise versa. If they are of a fanatical bent they do it regardless, because their religious beliefs demand it of them.

  96. Armadillo

    “Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”

    Churchill is right. This might give some insight into the modern conflict.

    In the history of science, science in the Muslim world refers to the science developed under Islamic civilization between the 8th and 16th centuries, during what is known as the Islamic Golden Age. It is also known as Arabic science since the majority of texts during this period were written in Arabic, the lingua franca of Islamic civilization. Despite these terms, not all scientists during this period were Muslim or Arab, as there were a number of notable non-Arab scientists (most notably Persians), as well as some non-Muslim scientists, who contributed to scientific studies in the Muslim world.

    The Romans were in Persia (modern day Iran) well before Islam. Iranians are not Arabs, and never describe themselves as such. They consider themselves to be “the first Aryan race” http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

    It’s complicated. Shia/Sunni/Kurd – they will fight among themselves. Let them do so.

  97. oldsalt

    Separation of State and Church won’t of itself do much good for majority Muslim Nations if the interpretation of their sacred texts remains literalist and intolerant. All it does is set up competing centres of power and potential for more conflict.

  98. cohenite

    Aristogeiton, you are either an agent provocateur or a loon.

    The Western structure gives rights and protects them with mechanisms which have been well canvassed. And those rights include individual liberties.

    You seem to be claiming a sui juris basis for your libertarian status. That is a nonsense.

    Anyway for any person to assert this means that a conversation cannot ensue:

    If religion can be practiced without harm to my fellows, then who am I to deny that right? And it can, and is.

    I do not intend to retravel the already exhaustively travelled road of examples showing Islamic incursion into the Western structure here and elsewhere.

    I can only assume you wish to engage in eristic exchange of insult which I will oblige you as the mood strikes.

  99. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362183, posted on June 27, 2014 at 7:49 pm
    [...]
    I can only assume you wish to engage in eristic exchange of insult which I will oblige you as the mood strikes.

    Let me kick you off, fuckwit. If individuals want to practice their religious beliefs in concordance with our liberal values, they can. If they can’t abide our norms, then they will be dealt with according to the law. Now fuck off.

  100. cohenite

    You fuck off; your premise is wishful thinking of the Tinkerbell variety with pantaloons on.

    Islam does not abide by our norms you moron; they don’t even rise when the beak enters the courtroom numbnuts.

  101. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362203, posted on June 27, 2014 at 8:01 pm
    [...]
    Islam does not abide by our norms you moron; they don’t even rise when the beak enters the courtroom numbnuts.

    Fallacy of personification.

  102. oldsalt

    Again, The Bahais came from Shia, they manage to read the Koran with more generosity than many, most, Muslims, they accept the Koran as a revelation and Mohammad as a messenger. They manage to squeeze tolerance and peace out of it and ignore what they regard as out of date. If they can do it so can others, if they want to. The capacity is there for change.

    We’re lucky in comparison. Jesus just said have faith in me and don’t forget the Commandments, go work out the rest for yourselves.

    Mohammad’s life has become such a detailed prescription for a literalist Muslim to imitate, it leaves little wiggle room to grow, make your own mistakes, learn, change.

  103. tomix

    cohenite
    Aristogeiton, you are either an agent provocateur or a loon.

    Hoi! Give loons a break.

  104. Clam Chowdah

    Fallacy of personification.

    And a gross generalisation drawn from the activities of a reviled minority. That’s Cohenite’s modus operandi.

    Tell us about how mohels do their work, Cohenite, and whether that practice is the norm.

  105. Aristogeiton

    tomix
    #1362227, posted on June 27, 2014 at 8:17 pm
    cohenite
    Aristogeiton, you are either an agent provocateur or a loon.

    Hoi! Give loons a break.

    You have no credibility, tomix. You’re an anti-Muslim, anti-LDP shill.

  106. Clam Chowdah

    reviled minority

    Meaning: the extremists that the comment itself reviles.

  107. cohenite

    You’re an idiot chowdah; the relativism and racism cards are your only tricks; you’re a Cephalopod with 2 arms.

    The innocuous nature of islam as declared by chowdah and Aristogeiton; as meaningful concepts go it’s up there with peace in our time.

  108. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362254, posted on June 27, 2014 at 8:29 pm
    You’re an idiot chowdah; the relativism and racism cards are your only tricks; you’re a Cephalopod with 2 arms.

    This is where you are wrong. Nobody has made a relativist argument. Both cohenite and I are arguing absolutely in defence of liberty. You are just a bigot nutter.

  109. Aristogeiton

    s/cohenite/Chowdah/

  110. cohenite

    Both cohenite and I are arguing absolutely in defence of liberty. You

    And you’re absolutely both fools.

  111. Aristogeiton

    So you’re a fool? Is that what you’re saying?

  112. Jessie

    Perhaps I missed the section that honour killings = Islamic culture in Badar’s talk. Or that Salman Rushdie is also speaking at FODI, or Pilger is going to talk about housing in the desert and utopia, rather than murder.

    Anyone that writes/speaks truthfully of remote Australia knows that purported honour and murder occur with sickening regularity. Alcohol is often used as the mitigating excuse, it suited the colonisation theory and the lack of human development. The human development that was retarded for so many with the re-introduction of customary lore, maintaining closed populations in gated areas out of public view, communal rights achieved under ‘expert consensus ‘, specialised ABS counting agency for this developing self-identifying census group and the re-tribalisation. The deliberate lack of education and/or provision of, and non-reporting of this decades long fraud was an final factor. Malala- shot for going to school?

    The comment on domestic violence being an industry, an industry which allowed the EXTRAORDINARY RATES of MURDER of Aboriginal women/girls to continue for many decades. an industry which condemned thousands of Australian females to lives of unimaginable human poverty and suffering. Like their sisters in PNG. While the parasites and predators debated colonisation, native title to compensate land loss, a lack of focus on science and DNA, alcohol, cultural education, bush hunting trips, carbon farms, women elders consensus groups and so on and on. The imaginative programs, ideas and scams were, and continue to be endless.

    There has been no comment on the forms of ‘marriage’ under Islam or Aboriginal customary lore. Nikah mut’ah or moiety. Forced rape to produce children within particular familial lineages, removing young girls and women to outstations and other communities including changing names and ‘grooming’ procedures such as living with ‘aunty’ or ‘grandmother’ and ‘a back to country’ stay. These latter terms are fluid, more recently Warren Mundine has sought to clarify the importance of kinship (?moiety) in the national curriculum. He spectacularly failed to describe the inequality of women and girls, an obvious oversight given the situation for 49% of the population in remote Australia. The 1% of the what is the 50% male/female are the women elder consensus experts, who only recently, and of low numbers, fail to explain to the public the situation for girls, young women wanting to choose their own partners or careers and widows in these re-tribalised communities. Marcia Langton has only been able to explain in more recent times a little of this as abuse after decades of land rights with Professor Sutton, silencing dissenters using her expert status and continues her status as an expert as she matches the public knowledge that comes to light. Noel Pearson hasn’t explained the situation. I would not think the murdered or the relatives of the murdered would have the opportunity to discuss their stories. Or with ease.

    Mildren sentenced Djana, 32, to a 27-year non-parole period for what was a cruel and sustained attack over many hours. Djana assaulted Norman in various locations in and around the Little Sisters town camp on the southwest fringes of Alice. Norman’s injuries were terrible: she was jumped on, had her head pounded with rocks, was whipped and impaled in the vagina on a stick or a pole. This last injury formed the conviction for sexual assault without consent, for which Djana received a life sentence to add to his life sentence for murder. Djana, who had five previous convictions for assaulting Norman and was subject to a restraining order the day he killed her, thought she had been unfaithful to him while he was in jail and was a bad mother to their four children.

    The judge said the wound to Norman’s vagina was “telling. It is strongly supportive of the fact that you killed her out of sexual jealousy, believing rightly or wrongly that she had been going with other men (while) you were in prison”.

    Killers should no longer expect leniency in the NT

    MURDERERS in the Northern Territory will find it harder to plead manslaughter under reforms designed to eliminate “reverse racism” from the justice system.

    Ashleigh Wilson 2006 The Australian Bid to cut reverse racism in murder trials

  113. Jessie

    Clarifying the use of parasites and predators in Jessie @ 9.51pm

    Nominations are invited to list parasites and predators who have rorted the political system to get benefits for a few people at huge cost to the common wealth.

  114. Tel

    What has finally been corrected is a terrible lapse in judgment (as well as taste) by the organisers.

    The organisers actively sought advice from the wider community, and on consideration of the matter they voluntarily decided to improve their own judgement.

  115. cohenite

    Aritogeiton, you are a troll. Your modus operandi is to take a stance of pure or idealised libertarianism which is so unrealistic as to be a caricature and then use that artefact as both a justification for acceptance of islam and proof that islam is not a threat. In effect you use islam to prove islam is tolerant of a pixie concept.

    I have seen the technique used by alarmists and other smart-arses where a position of scepticism is taken which is so extreme it makes true scepticism look ridiculous.

    Your position on libertarianism is absurd.

  116. MemoryVault

    Jessie
    #1362347, posted on June 27, 2014 at 9:51 pm

    Thank you Jessie.
    Ever since this ugly subject raised its ugly head several days ago, I have bitten my tongue and refrained from making the obvious comparison between how Islam and Australia’s indigenous population regard and treat women.

    Thank you for bringing it out into the open and stating the obvious.

    Why on earth would Australia’s “cultural elite” have any problem with “honour killings”?
    They’ve been promoting exactly the same kind of barbaric behaviour amongst Australian Aboriginals for decades. For the “elites” it’s just what backwards savages do, is all.

    The truly sad part is that neither the Australian Aboriginals, nor the Moslem migrants, realise that is exactly how the elites think of them – as backward savages, useful only to be exploited.

  117. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362368, posted on June 27, 2014 at 10:17 pm
    Aritogeiton, you are a troll. Your modus operandi is to take a stance of pure or idealised libertarianism which is so unrealistic as to be a caricature and then use that artefact as both a justification for acceptance of islam and proof that islam is not a threat. In effect you use islam to prove islam is tolerant of a pixie concept.

    This is so ungrammatical, I can’t actually divine your meaning.

  118. cohenite

    I can’t actually divine your meaning.

    Irrelevant; your meaning is plain.

  119. MemoryVault

    Aristogeiton, Cohenite,

    You reckon you guys could continue your spat out in the playground where it belongs?
    We get that you don’t like each other – that’s a given.
    After all, you’ve now polluted and derailed three threads with your mutual vitriol.
    We accept that both of you are way past the point of anything more than vicious name-calling.
    So it has all become a bit more than boring.

    So, take it outside and give the rest of us a break.

  120. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1362383, posted on June 27, 2014 at 10:35 pm
    Aristogeiton, Cohenite,

    You reckon you guys could continue your spat out in the playground where it belongs?
    We get that you don’t like each other – that’s a given.
    After all, you’ve now polluted and derailed three threads with your mutual vitriol.
    We accept that both of you are way past the point of anything more than vicious name-calling.
    So it has all become a bit more than boring.

    So, take it outside and give the rest of us a break.

    Are you a bit embarrassed that cohenite is on your side of the debate, so want to take the opportunity to smear me at the same time?

  121. cohenite

    Don’t patronise me MV by reducing me to an equivalent position to Aristogeiton who simply adopts a position of libertarianism so unreal that it in effect supports islam. Aristogeiton merely isolates the trouble with islam to a few malcontents.

    I have presented cogent and evidence based critiques of islam continually and am accused of racism for my troubles.

    Has Aristogeiton done the same?

  122. MemoryVault

    Aristogeiton
    #1362387, posted on June 27, 2014 at 10:38 pm

    Are you a bit embarrassed that cohenite is on your side of the debate, so want to take the opportunity to smear me at the same time?

    Aristogeiton,
    Both of you have wandered so far away from the original “debate” so long ago, that it is now impossible to even discern “sides”, let alone pick one, or smear anybody.

    No, I’m not embarrassed, just bored with two ten year olds fighting in class.

  123. Aristogeiton

    MemoryVault
    #1362395, posted on June 27, 2014 at 10:46 pm
    [...]
    No, I’m not embarrassed, just bored with two ten year olds fighting in class.

    It’s just interesting to me that you and cohenite share very similar views. Except, of course, that cohenite is slightly more of a nutter than you are.

  124. Gab

    You all should realise by now that the garrulous Aristo has to have the final word … on every comment.

  125. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1362405, posted on June 27, 2014 at 10:53 pm
    You all should realise by now that the garrulous Aristo has to have the final word … on every comment.

    More of your obsession Gab. It’s pathetic, really.

  126. Gab

    There’s only one obsessive on this site and that’s you.

  127. .

    The debate is dead baby, debate’s dead.

  128. MemoryVault

    The debate is dead baby, debate’s dead.

    Too true, Dot, too true.
    Killed by a thousand pin pricks.
    Or maybe just two pricks.

    Pity really.
    I thought Jessie had something important to contribute at 9.51 pm.

  129. oldsalt

    You don’t find honour killings or death for adultery in Indonesian Islam where it has no cultural resonance, not even the Wahabi fanatics have tried to push that one. Lots of other nasty intolerant stuff of course.

    Their most prominent movement for moderation calls itself the ‘Liberal Muslim Network.’ Not a bad ambition and a good standard to hold them to..

  130. .

    The truly sad part is that neither the Australian Aboriginals, nor the Moslem migrants, realise that is exactly how the elites think of them – as backward savages, useful only to be exploited.

    Mein gott. That’s actually true. It’s fucking brutal and callous.

  131. .

    Their most prominent movement for moderation calls itself the ‘Liberal Muslim Network.’ Not a bad ambition and a good standard to hold them to..

    cohenite says these people don’t exist and insists they all believe in a code of deciet and violence towards unbelievers.

    This is presumptuous and preposterous.

  132. .

    Don’t patronise me MV by reducing me to an equivalent position to Aristogeiton who simply adopts a position of libertarianism so unreal that it in effect supports islam.

    No.

    Not having militantly anti Muslim views like you do is not “support of Islam”.

  133. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1362448, posted on June 27, 2014 at 11:15 pm
    Don’t patronise me MV by reducing me to an equivalent position to Aristogeiton who simply adopts a position of libertarianism so unreal that it in effect supports islam.

    No.

    Not having militantly anti Muslim views like you do is not “support of Islam”.

    If you’d been paying attention, you would know that I despise the religion. I also despise leftism. But I don’t want to ban either.

  134. Aristogeiton

    Directed at MV, since it’s unclear.

  135. Jessie

    I’ll trump that Gab!

    Longstaff worked for GEMCO, Groote Eylandt? One of the most violent communities in northern Australia and for women. Obviously Fred Hollows had not visited and readjusted Longstaff’s vision.
    Or that patch burning and fire ceremonies have become adequate cultural descriptions, and produce manslaughter charges, not murder.
    SMH 2011

    The four were accused of killing Ms Bara in a fire-circle ceremony during which they tried to cleanse her of the devil.
    An autopsy showed Ms Bara died after being struck at least 26 times with an unknown weapon and had burns on her arms and cuts on her face, ABC radio reported.

    ABC 2011

    The prosecutor told the court another woman asked Sara Bara to find a bag.
    When she did not respond, the woman hit her with a stick.
    The court heard Roderick Mamarika then told her to sit inside a ring of grass, which he set alight.
    He then allegedly hit her several times with a steel pole and encouraged others, saying: “Kill that lady.”

    We should be aware that Badar has company with the form from within Office of the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, Canberra

    In late 2006, two events occurred that focused attention on the relationship between culture and gendered violence in Australian society. The first event occurred in October 2006, when an Australian mufti, Sheik Taj Din Al-Hilali, made controversial comments in a sermon delivered at a Sydney mosque. He compared women not properly covered according to Islamic law to ‘uncovered meat’ and made other remarks suggestive of women provoking sexual assaults against themselves by their mode of dress. These comments were widely condemned across sections of the Australian community.

    The second event was the passing of the Crimes Amendment (Bail and Sentencing) Act 2006 (Cth) (the Crimes Amendment Act) through federal Parliament. This piece of legislation was largely a response to the revelation of high rates of family violence and child abuse in Indigenous communities. The Act effectively removes cultural considerations from sentencing in relation to federal offenders and is intended for replication at state and territory level.

    I argue that Anglo-Celtic culture embodies many values that are discriminatory towards women and condone violence against women when they transcend, or attempt to transcend, the rigid boundaries that are established as acceptable within the confines of that culture. For example, within the dominant culture, there are many circumstances where rape is implicitly condoned, including when the victim is not considered to have dressed or behaved appropriately, for example by agreeing to spend time with a team of football players. Similarly, purely physical violence against women is condemned in some contexts, but only some. Where the victim has ‘stepped over the line’ of acceptable behaviour, for example by being loud or aggressive, or refusing to know her place, violence against her is implicitly, and sometimes expressly, deemed acceptable or understandable.

    Looking out for ‘our women’: cultural background and gendered violence in Australia Author: Currently employed as a Senior Legal Officer with the Office of the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions in Canberra and completing a Research Masters at the Australian National University.

  136. oldsalt

    The Muslim Malay pearl divers in Broome complained of exploitation, snatched it and went back home as soon as Malaysia became independent.

    The mostly Christian Koepangers didn’t. They wanted to stay and the pearlers wanted to keep them. In the 1920s they fought battles in the streets of Broome against their Japanese exploiters, people died. They had no Union to fight for better conditions. The last crews were hired in 1952 and their jobs taken away by the Communist run Trade Union Congress in Indonesia which complained of exploitation and banned further recruitment. Those who stayed married indig and their kids are well represented among the current indig leadership. Quite wealthy but complaining of … exploitation

  137. cohenite

    Does the Liberal Muslim Network believe in or accept the separation of church and state?

  138. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1362480, posted on June 27, 2014 at 11:40 pm
    Does the Liberal Muslim Network believe in or accept the separation of church and state?

    Do you?

    The Commonwealth shall not make any law [...] for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion

    (Commonwealth of Australia Constitution, s. 116)

  139. coz

    oh, I’ve come in late and I’m going to sleep soon, missed an interesting discussion. The only thing I would like to point out here is that the word ‘gender’ has been annexed by men posing as women (aka transexuals/transvestites/autogynephiles, (sumfink to do with genderqueer bullshit) and so terms such as ‘gender violence’ end up being used by men who pose as women to be seen to apply to them, in order to portray themselves as a ‘victim’ class. The only group these people are victims of is men, not women. There is no record of women ever having killed or perpetrated violence on transexuals/transvestites/autogynephiles, and their complaints are a matter of male violence, not female, if it bothers them, then, as men, they need to address the issue of male propensity to violence. Hope this makes sense, it’s a mindfuck of a concept, like most masculinist theories, and it’s rather late.

  140. Oh come on

    True. A reformation is needed, from within. I doubt it will ever occur.

    It’s already happened. Their Martin Luther was Osama bin Laden.

  141. johanna

    Jessie, your point is well made. It should also be pointed out that “honour killings” were long a feature of Sicilian culture.

    While religion is a mask for these murders, whether among Muslims, Aborigines, Hindus or Catholic Sicilians, as Sinclair said, it all boils down to murder, pure and simple. And the common denominator is that women and girls are regarded as currency and posessions.

  142. MT Isa Miner

    .

    #1362038, posted on June 27, 2014 at 5:40 pm

    1 Do you accept the primacy of the laws of the land.

    2 Do you accept the separation of church and state

    3 Do you accept the equality of women

    4 Do you accept the rights of individuals

    5 Do you accept the rights of other religions

    I like this. 4 is critical – 3 may be misused by misandrist loons in their quest to steal off the taxpayer and destroy western masculinity.

    Never line up with the progressive enemy. Equality before the law and before God- otherwise celebrate the “yin and yang” of men and women.

    But Cohenite is right too and more right for the medieval muslims. It just gets mucky when a medieval culture gets chucked in to ours. Easy peasy- don’t let them in.

  143. MT Isa Miner

    Clam Chowdah

    #1362228, posted on June 27, 2014 at 8:18 pm

    Fallacy of personification.

    And a gross generalisation drawn from the activities of a reviled minority. That’s Cohenite’s modus operandi.

    Tell us about how mohels do their work, Cohenite, and whether that practice is the norm.

    Well, I reckon if more of us knew more about Judaism more of us would kick back there too.

    Yer, I know they are so smart and make so much money that they donate to get in with whoever, but they are another group that has very some suss ways of operating. Just that somehow no one talks about it. Who knew that women should wigs so that the rest of us don’t see their hair- remind you of any other group? Women having to go to a sacred bathhouse and have a sacred bath to make themselves ritually CLEAN after their frigging periods! Google google.. I could go on about us Christians having no soul and all but that’s for another thread in a parallel universe.

  144. cohenite

    Do you?

    S.116 obviously drew inspiration from the First Amendment of the United States which states that

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

    Arguably however Commonwealth funding of religious schools contravenes S.116. In the DOGS case of 1981 Justice Sir Ronald Wilson concluded that:

    s.116 is a denial of legislative power to the Commonwealth and no more … The provision therefore cannot answer the description of a law which guarantees within Australia the separation of church and state.

    And per Justice Sir Ninian Stephen:

    [S.116]cannot readily be viewed as a repository of some broad statement of principle concerning the separation of church and state, from which may be distilled the detailed consequences of such separation.

    It is a subject which has had the political dampers put on it since DOGS with the result now that the private education system is dominated by religious schools with a growing number of Islamic schools.

    That being the case I have no doubt Australia will go down the route of England where not content with having government funded Islamic schools muslim activists are infiltrating the boards of public schools to introduce sharia based education.

    This is something the Liberal Muslim Network should be involved in.

  145. cohenite

    As for Jesse’s as usual excellent point about honour killing amongst aboriginal groups I think the final point is also a take away issue:

    I argue that Anglo-Celtic culture embodies many values that are discriminatory towards women and condone violence against women when they transcend, or attempt to transcend, the rigid boundaries that are established as acceptable within the confines of that culture. For example, within the dominant culture, there are many circumstances where rape is implicitly condoned, including when the victim is not considered to have dressed or behaved appropriately, for example by agreeing to spend time with a team of football players. Similarly, purely physical violence against women is condemned in some contexts, but only some. Where the victim has ‘stepped over the line’ of acceptable behaviour, for example by being loud or aggressive, or refusing to know her place, violence against her is implicitly, and sometimes expressly, deemed acceptable or understandable.

    The bureaucrat’s words echo the centrepiece of any policy nominally against the lack of human rights in any left supported victim or issue group such as aboriginals or muslims; which is the Western values caused it, are still causing it or are as bad.

  146. MT Isa Miner

    In a forthcoming article in Quadrant magazine, I argue that Section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act should be repealed so that controversial issues of national importance such as Aboriginal identity and multiculturalism can be freely debated.

    yeah, Sinclair, yeah, and yeah to what Jessie has said x100. Its a disgrace that Australians ( yes Aborigines) have so little protection from the law. 4 year old children with STD’s. Burn the camps down.

    But its like shifting the course of the Titanic to change what the msm and the progressives tell us about Aborigines.

    See how fucking SCARED everyone is. The Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre yesterday claimed the professional gambler and art guru simply “doesn’t get” Aboriginal culture and had repeatedly ­offended the state’s indigenous community.

    TAC chief executive Heather Sculthorpe told The Australian that an exhibit at Walsh’s ­Museum of Old and New Art — offering DNA testing for people to find out if they were Aborigines — was just the latest offence.

    Walsh, who has defended MONA works offensive to some Christians, has responded to the backlash over the DNA exhibit with surprising self-censorship, pulling it from show.

  147. MT Isa Miner

    Snap, Cohenite.

  148. notafan

    no surprises where honour killings in Sicily originated

    honour killings in Sicily

  149. Steve

    This study found that worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims: http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

  150. MT Isa Miner

    Steve

    #1362864, posted on June 28, 2014 at 1:10 pm

    For my previous comment the link should be: http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

    Steve, it’s one thing to think that it happens and its another to read the cold hard numbers. And the bloody numbers for NORTH AMERICA! It’s the future for us too.

  151. johanna

    notafan, the news that Sicilian culture was heavily influenced by Arab incursions is not new to me. My point is, it was incorporated into law and custom in a devoutly Catholic society. As Sinclair said, getting into the highways and byways of individual cultures and religions is a distraction from the central issue. That is, murder is murder, and is always wrong.

  152. cohenite

    That is, murder is murder, and is always wrong.

    Correct. And no one currently does murder better than islam.

  153. Notafan

    Devoutly Catholic honour killings ?
    I have no conviction about the commitment to faith of an entire community that also includes the Mafia; for whom killing those who stand in the way of their pursuit of money and power is a byword. Those murdered including some genuinely devout Catholics, no doubt.
    Whether the ‘devout’ Catholics were responsible for the honour killings we do not know.
    I suspect not.
    Murder is murder but what motivates a mother to murder a teenage daughter who has been raped by her adult brother?
    I suspect some cultural influence might be at play.

  154. .

    S.116 obviously drew inspiration from the First Amendment of the United States which states that

    It could have been so much more.

    The original version of s 116 as written by A I Clark also had the US XIV amendment tacked on, basically.

  155. tomix

    old salt @ 11.07pm

    You don’t find honour killings or death for adultery in Indonesian Islam where it has no cultural resonance, not even the Wahabi fanatics have tried to push that one. Lots of other nasty intolerant stuff of course.
    Dunno about that, but they’ll massacre Christians at the drop of a[n imam's] hat.

    The victims aren’t catholics, of course, so it doesn’t get reported in our media.

  156. tomix

    Your link no worky, Notafan.

  157. oldsalt

    Yep correct Tomix. Not only does the media not report it, sometimes Canberra doesn’t even want to know it – ‘The analysts aren’t asking that question.’

    The Jihad began in the early 90s, tested the waters in the backblocks against Catholics, threw the West E.Timor as a bone to chew while they let the jihadists loose to change the map of Eastern Indonesia. When a boatload of Ambonese Christians fled here with documents to alert us, they were locked up in Port Hedland, including a journalist, without a lawyer. Most were deported back to the tender mercies of jihad, only a few toughed it out and got TPVs.

    Why? Because Canberra didn’t want to embarrass the Indon president.

  158. Notafan

    Link works for me.
    I have read on line about attacks on Christians in Indonesia but it’s true no reported in the MSM in Australia.

  159. johanna

    notafan, your use of the “only a true Scotsman” fallacy to explain the operations of the Mafia and honour killings in Sicily is unconvincing, to say the least. It is, as the fallacy embodies, tautological.

    But as Sinc points out, all this stuff is just a smokescreen for murder.

  160. oldsalt

    The latest was last month. A group of goatteed white robed thugs in Jogja under the command of Jafar Umar, the Laskar Jihad boss during the Maluku conflicts, attacked a group of Catholics doing the Rosary at the home of a Catholic newspaper editor, beat him up and tried to burn it down. The Police Chief ‘s response was to ban Catholics from gathering for prayers at private homes.

  161. Notafan

    Im sorry Joanna, what I am trying to say is calling Sicilians ‘devoutly Catholic’ one and all is simply not true.
    A devout Catholic in my understanding is one who upholds the teachings of the church and one of the ten commandments is against murder, that includes so called honour killings. I have heard that the Italian laws, up until the 1980s were a bit more lenient in sentencing for so-called ‘crimes of passion’ but never knew that Italy condoned; as in there was no temporal punishment; for the type of premeditated honour murders being discussed here.
    I am now, entirely unconvinced that
    you even know what a devout Catholic is, it certainly isn’t the equivalent of being a Scotsman.
    Sicily is also home to the Mafia, membership of which is now expressly subject to excommunication from the church. My point being a fair bit of behaviour not condoned by Catholic teaching occurred in Sicily, as it does where ever there are Catholics, none of whom have ever claimed to be free of sin.

  162. tomix

    Notafan- “Crimes of passion’ and “honour killings” are not the same thing.

    At one time there was an unwritten law. That law probably prevented a lot of broken homes.

  163. Jessie

    The Australian dealt with this matter of murder in 2010. Robert Fisk discussed the trend developing in the commonwealth countries.
    Murder wave that shames the world

    Scotland Yard is reopening many ‘suicides’.
    Canada recently had a lengthy investigation. Four (4) women from one family all murdered by father, mother and son/brother.
    DiManno: Car was pushed into canal, court told

    No-one has discussed the murder of young men, there are many. Many that wanted to follow individual lives and thought. Marry who they chose and loved. Be a young Australian male. Be educated well, have fun, meet others, believe what they wanted to believe, raise their own families and work. They were murdered, assaulted and silenced for this simple want. For not wanting to be part of the communal re-tribalised experiment system, another number another $ for the argument and justification of one with the land. Or they committed suicide. As we see suicide rates in remote/rural Australia.

    Perhaps Big Nana would like to comment.

    Thank you johanna, various ethnic and racial groups are mentioned by Fisk.
    Unabridged version here

  164. Jessie

    The Australian dealt with this matter of murder in 2010. Robert Fisk discussed the trend developing in the commonwealth countries.
    Murder wave that shames the world

    Scotland Yard is reopening many ‘suicides’.
    Canada recently had a lengthy investigation. Four (4) women from one family all murdered by father, mother and son/brother.
    DiManno: Car was pushed into canal, court told

    No-one has discussed the murder of young men, there are many. Many that wanted to follow individual lives and thought. Marry who they chose and loved. Be a young Australian male. Be educated well, have fun, meet others, believe what they wanted to believe, raise their own families and work. They were murdered, assaulted and silenced for this simple want. For not wanting to be part of the communal re-tribalised experiment system, another number another $ for the argument and justification of one with the land. Or they committed suicide. As we see suicide rates in remote/rural Australia.

  165. Jessie

    Perhaps Big Nana would like to comment.

    Thank you johanna, various ethnic and racial groups are mentioned by Fisk.
    Unabridged version by Fisk here

  166. tomix

    Violent people have violent relationships.

    Muslims are violent people.

    It’s the Law of Attraction.
    Simple , really.

  167. WhaleHunt Fun

    I have no doubt that millions of Moslems are as appalled and horrified by the practice as anyone and everyone else.

    No. A true Moslem is faithful to the teachings and would wholeheartedly support Islamic practice. It is slander to assert that they would not eagerly do this themselves let alone support such action by others. Unless proven otherwise, they should be taken as honest and true adherents.

Comments are closed.