Open Forum: July 5, 2014

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1,565 Responses to Open Forum: July 5, 2014

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  1. Joe Goodacre

    You are ignorant and are out of your depth.

    No doubt – how is that different from most people in Australia?

    Since the 1900′s Australia has passed medicare, pensions, labour laws, carbon taxes, mining taxes, land use restrictions, nuclear restrictions etc etc. Soon there will be gay marriage laws no doubt, then curtailment of religious freedom. Is there a society that started off this way that is continuing to stay liberal? Hong Kong for instance is just about to get it’s first ACCC equivalent.

    At what point do you stop and wonder that maybe classical liberalism won’t survive because it isn’t the most effective way of organising a society. The most effective way may be less liberty than we’d like, but more liberty than we would otherwise have elsewhere.

  2. I couldn’t begin to count the number of jobs lost, but within a month or so of the Mining Tax being implmented my sister’s bro-in-law’s company went from running 18 drilling rigs flat out (exploration work) to struggling to keep one drilling rig in work.

    Those jobs were lost because commodities prices have dropped right back. Iron ore for instance has dropped to slightly above half of what it was during the peak period around 2009 and first six months of 2011.

    No, no and no.
    Those jobs were lost more than a year before commodity prices dropped. Those jobs were lost because due to the mining tax, exploration was halted.

    Manifestation.of.ALP.incompetence.and.stupidity

  3. Oh come on

    It was in the early ’90′s and the Russian military industrial complex was out looking for work.

    They were hungry days.

    Ever wondered why the Chinese have been able to narrow the military technological gap with the west so quickly? I used to work with a stereotypically Russian boffin type. He first travelled to work in China in the mid 90s. As soon as he got off the plane, he was taken aside and interviewed at length by two Chinese spooks regarding his scientific expertise, work experience etc. When they realised his skill set wouldn’t be useful for their purposes, he was allowed to go. Several of his colleagues were offered – and accepted – lucrative contracts to “share their experiences”, as the Chinese put it. Who knows how many did, but the number must be five figures long.

    And that’s how a country could go from relying on WWI-era technology in 1979 to designing and be on the cusp of fielding 5th Generation fighters, aircraft carriers, SSNs and whatnot.

    Thanks, Russia!

  4. Joe Goodacre

    When were the jobs lost and what commodity were they looking for?

  5. incoherent rambler

    dot

    Coal is simply primitivecheaper [electricty] compared to nukes.

    What are your assumptions? How did you cost nukes?

    I did not cost it, TonyFromOz did. Hunting links for you, I will post when I find them all.

  6. H B Bear #1371902, posted on July 7, 2014 at 10:25 am

    Stopping the boats alone will get the Coalition over the line in 2016 (along with a thumping majority that most people have completely forgotten). A $10bn problem solved by people with HB pencils.

    Even Loughnane and Credlin will be able to craft a few ads with Boy Wonder, The Goose, Tits and Dilbersek with the simple message, “Want to go back to this?”.

    Loughnane and Credlin couldn’t:

    a. organise a piss up in a brewery
    b. pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel
    c. teach a monkey to eat bananas
    d. organise the contents of an empty paper bag
    e. …

  7. Steve at the Pub #1372147, posted on July 7, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    No, no and no.
    Those jobs were lost more than a year before commodity prices dropped. Those jobs were lost because due to the mining tax, exploration was halted.

    Manifestation.of.ALP.incompetence.and.stupidity

    Not incompetence, (those dills were incapable of a policy thought) they were mindlessly executing others’ plans to reduce Australia’s international competitiveness.

  8. Bruce of Newcastle

    When were the jobs lost and what commodity were they looking for?

    Immediately. All commodities.

    Unless you know the ASX listed mining community you will not understand how fickle it is. Forget long term planning. They do whatever they can get money to do. They get money from capital raising and the banks. The punters only will stump up for raisings on whatever is flavour of the month…iron ore, uranium, nickel or whatever… and the banks are like butterflies on speed. Attention span of a gnat and they too will only ever lend to whatever is the current fashion.

    So mining companies morph. One year they will be uranium explorers, and other coal and the year later rare earth metals. When there is no money around they go into hibernation until the next excitement period.

    The mining tax sank them all because punters closed their wallets and banks disappeared into their shells in panic mode. There was no money, so we got no work. Only when the dust settled and they stuck their collective heads out to see, no, the world hadn’t actually ended in environmental fire, did they then cautiously start approving loans and floats again.

    Its a crazy way to run an industry where it takes 10-20 years to get a mine going, but its the industry we got.

  9. Rudiau

    Kae,
    The “pulse” is an Audio Frequency (AF) tone sent for switching off-peak on and off via the mains in a single phase domestic situation.
    The signal. of course, is sent by the controlling energy agent.
    This domestic diagram may help explain.
    Note the Multi Switch AF Receiver.

    Electricity – the less we use, the more it costs.

    Liberty Quote.

  10. kae

    Thanks Rudi.

    Psst, new fred.

  11. .

    It’s bullshit, IR.

    They don’t say what their assumptions are. They are just blowhards talking out of their arse.

  12. Rudiau

    Hippies educate oil protester.
    Fubar.

  13. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1372069, posted on July 7, 2014 at 12:55 pm
    In all seriousness, what’s the response to people who say that a country like Australia is a form of voluntary association

    They’re full of shit. Like you. End of story.

    He’s been answered on this score multiple times. As I said above, for example, Oakeshott dedicated a good portion of his philosophy to the difference between voluntary (enterprise) and civil associations. Each time Joe ignores the answer and goes back to asking his imbecile question. He has no interest in the answer, only in his own bloviations; god knows why he thinks this is so profound a question. I suppose that he needs the fairy tale of ‘consent’ to avoid facing up to the immorality of his own beliefs.

  14. incoherent rambler

    They don’t say what their assumptions are. They are just blowhards talking out of their arse.

    Anton is about as good as engineers get.

  15. notafan

    Senator for idiots on women with breast lumps
    Might have to pay $90 towards investigation and treatment cos of the ebil co-payments
    what a price to pay !
    Cheaper than a Buble ticket!

  16. Joe Goodacre

    As I said above, for example, Oakeshott dedicated a good portion of his philosophy to the difference between voluntary (enterprise) and civil associations.

    Except you don’t share what you think his insight is.

    It’s not a complicated question. Applying Occam’s razor would suggest that all of this effort to avoid providing a simple answer, is because the simple answer isn’t a persuasive one.

    because If someone asks what 2 + 2 is, there’s no a

  17. Joe Goodacre

    delete last line

  18. oldsalt

    Bruce I thought they migrated to the Canadian Stock Exchange, Greenland, Kazakhstan and Sierra Leone to wait for the next round robin of tenement and director swapping.

  19. .

    FFS IR it is not just an engineering issue.

    They don’t say what the assumptions are regarding cost.

  20. Token

    Wow, am I being blocked again?

  21. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372215, posted on July 7, 2014 at 2:26 pm
    As I said above, for example, Oakeshott dedicated a good portion of his philosophy to the difference between voluntary (enterprise) and civil associations.

    Except you don’t share what you think his insight is.

    It’s not a complicated question.

    You’ve been given multiple reasons why it is not the case. You have been alerted to more sophisticated proponents of the social contract, such as Rousseau and Locke. Myself and others have alerted you to the practical and moral dimensions of your constructive ‘consent,’ which you have ignored. You were linked to a very good article on the subject. Now you want me to summarise On Human Conduct for you in a few sentences? Don’t be so bloody lazy. Here’s an article, which you could have Googled yourself. Now go away.

  22. JC

    You really are fucking moron, badacare.

  23. JC

    I have an awful feeling in my stomach that badacare could very well be oakeshit.

  24. feelthebern

    I have an awful feeling in my stomach that badacare could very well be oakeshit.

    Wouldn’t surprise me.
    Oakey was a pussy through & through.

  25. Aristogeiton

    JC
    #1372263, posted on July 7, 2014 at 3:03 pm
    A total imbecile.

    He thinks he’s some fucking philosopher king, yet his thinking is completely undergraduate (as befits his third rate alma mater). He just goes on and on with this. There’s no way to answer him; he just ignores anything you say and parrots his little spiel on consent again. I hope he gets cancer.

  26. kae

    Good thing her head is full of air or the new senator wouldn’t be able to support it.

    Not without back pain.

  27. Joe Goodacre

    Tregenza quotes Oakshott…

    There was once, so Schopenhauer tells us, a colony of porcupines. They were
    wont to huddle together on a cold winter’s day and, thus wrapped in
    communal warmth, escape being frozen. But, plagued with the pricks of each
    other’s quills, they drew apart. And every time the desire for warmth brought
    them together again, the same calamity overtook them. Thus they remained,
    distracted between two misfortunes, able neither to tolerate nor to do without
    one another, until they discovered that when they stood at a certain distance
    from one another they could both delight in one another’s individuality and
    enjoy one another’s company. They did not attribute any metaphysical
    significance to this distance, nor did they imagine it to be an independent
    source of happiness, like finding a friend. They recognized it to be a
    relationship in terms not of substantive enjoyments but of contingent
    considerabilities that they must determine for themselves. Unknown to
    themselves, they had invented civil association.

    To take Oakshott’s example of the porcupine – no one is forcing porcupines to come together to share warmth… they choose to come together to survive. Both porcupines need warmth – if one is more aggressive in negotiating the conditions upon which that warmth is provided, and comes up with conditions that the other porcupine doesn’t like, it doesn’t change the fact that consent exists.
    Tregenza then states…
    However, the problem comes when the state—which is for all intents and purposes a
    compulsory organization—becomes an enterprise association. What occurs then is
    that certain particular purposes—which are by nature non-necessary or contingent—
    become compulsory. We are forced to subscribe to purposes that we could have
    rejected. In Oakeshott’s words: ‘to make enterprise association compulsory would be
    to deprive an agent of that ‘freedom’ or ‘autonomy’ which is the condition of agency’

    Hundreds of millions of people moving between countries have demonstrated that no one is being forced into an enterprise association.
    The front line of the defence of liberty is starting to look more and more like the Maginot line.

  28. .

    Goodacre is about a HSC, BA and MSc behind the curve on this debate about philosphy and rights (and sometimes even economics).

    Here’s a tip Joe.

    Obviously you’re smart. You are pushing shit up hill however trying to reinvent the wheel. Follow the references you are given and show a little humility.

  29. Joe Goodacre

    He thinks he’s some philosopher king, yet his thinking is completely undergraduate (as befits his third rate alma mater).

    I make no claims to be intelligent, or more well read. I’m just interested in finding out a principled way of living. As a high income earner who believes charity begins at home, I was quite happy believing laws not based on libertarian principles were immoral up to about 6 mths ago. So there’s no reason why I wouldn’t want to agree with you, other than the fact I either can’t understand what you’re saying, or you’re arguments are unpersuasive. It’s possible that I’m to stupid to understand what your saying – as you’ve said my uni wasn’t the best out there. Given the extent that you dance around this issue though (that is clear as daylight), it seems likely that you’re suffering from a little confirmation bias.

  30. Joe Goodacre

    Before Ari rubs my nose in it, delete an apostrophe in you’re.

  31. Joe Goodacre

    No doubt Dot there are many people who have read far more widely and thought about this for longer.

    Aren’t we at the Cat precisely so we don’t have to reinvent the wheel?

    I’ve read plenty of things directed my way. Since people like Ari sometimes use links to score points and waste time, I’ve found that it’s better keeping it simple first. If an idea is persuasive, then reading further about it.

  32. Leo G

    … The shamed entertainer then made a lewd comment to the 41-year-old. Our exclusive picture shows the sleazy star grinning before he fondled the petite brunette at a party for more than 2,000 army heroes at the Queen’s home. Harris quickly walked off leaving the victim stunned.

    The photograph belies the woman’s claim. The photo is supposed to reveal “how tight” he was holding her. The photo shows that the contact was fingertip- at between a half to one kilogram force. Moreover Harris would have been less than 2 metre from the photographer- at whom his gaze was fixed as he spoke. He was apparently speaking to the photographer, who would have clearly heard him. The woman’s left shoulder is in front of Harris’s right side which indicates that her left arm was by her side and not around Harris’s back. He was not well-positioned to make the pushing action she now describes.

  33. Aristogeiton

    What do you say to a fool who thinks like this? That law and morality are coterminous? It’s idiocy.

  34. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1372333, posted on July 7, 2014 at 3:58 pm
    [...]
    Obviously you’re smart.

    He’s a dumb as a bag of bricks.

  35. Bruce of Newcastle

    I thought they migrated to the Canadian Stock Exchange, Greenland, Kazakhstan and Sierra Leone to wait for the next round robin of tenement and director swapping.

    Oldsalt – You forgot the sex industry. ASX mining minnows are omnivorous creatures. They’ll do anything for money.

  36. Joe Goodacre

    So why does Oakshott establish your point Ari.

  37. .

    Show some humility, Goodacre.

    That law and morality are coterminous? It’s idiocy.

    Ari is right to chide you for this logical disaster.

  38. Joe Goodacre

    Why is it a logical disaster?

  39. Joe Goodacre

    What is an example of behaviour that we consent to that would be immoral?

    We can consent to harm through sports or boxing and all sorts of contract restrictions – on what basis would consenting to reduced liberty be immoral?

  40. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372450, posted on July 7, 2014 at 5:41 pm
    So why does Oakshott establish your point Ari.

    I think that Michael Oakeshott is a little beyond you at this point. You might want to try Rob Oakeshott instead. I think that’s more your level.

  41. JC

    We can consent to harm through sports or boxing and all sorts of contract restrictions – on what basis would consenting to reduced liberty be immoral?

    The fact that some of us don’t want to be, you deplorable sap, Badacre. Furthermore harm is a potential by product of playing some sports. Even boxing. Now fuck off.

  42. Aristogeiton

    JC
    #1372494, posted on July 7, 2014 at 6:30 pm
    [...]
    The fact that some of us don’t want to be, you deplorable sap, Badacre. Furthermore harm is a potential by product of playing some sports. Even boxing. Now fuck off.

    It’s great. We get from “some people like to box” to “everyone must box” in just one move.

  43. Aristogeiton

    Hey Joe, would you consent to a fight with me? Actually, who gives a fuck? I’ll just get everyone here to vote on whether I should beat the tar out of you. Then you will have ‘consented’.

  44. Aristogeiton

    For the uninitiated, Joe has said elsewhere that seizing all the property of, or ostracising, a citizen is moral if a bare majority will agree to it.

  45. Joe Goodacre

    Then pick something JC that has harm as a guaranteed outcome – like tattooing.

  46. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372506, posted on July 7, 2014 at 6:46 pm
    Then pick something JC that has harm as a guaranteed outcome – like tattooing.

    How are you this stupid?

  47. Joe Goodacre

    What a ferocious keyboard warrior you are Ari.

    You’re probably 6 ft 5 and bench 150kgs like the other trolls out there.

  48. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372518, posted on July 7, 2014 at 6:57 pm
    What a ferocious keyboard warrior you are Ari.

    You’re probably 6 ft 5 and bench 150kgs like the other trolls out there.

    I’m 6ft and would mop the floor with you, you fat, gap-toothed fuck.

  49. Gab

    Oh. It’s the Joe and Aggrogeiton show again.

  50. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1372520, posted on July 7, 2014 at 7:01 pm
    Oh. It’s the Joe and Aggrogeiton show again.

    You’re such a bitter crone, Gab.

  51. Joe Goodacre

    Correct – the strong can take from the weak, the smart from the stupid, the fearless from the fearful and the group from the individual. That’s simply a truism I’ve come from a variety of perspectives and concluded that there is no objective moralit and subjective morality is just that – subjective. There is only reality.

  52. Joe Goodacre

    110 kgs of pure muscle? What about the benching 150kgs – you missed that one.

  53. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372526, posted on July 7, 2014 at 7:08 pm
    110 kgs of pure muscle? What about the benching 150kgs – you missed that one.

    Lol. Yeah, the bench-press gives you the functional strength and skills necessary to prevail in a fight.

  54. Joe Goodacre

    Fair point – how many years on the clock? Had any major surgerie, knee, hip shoulder etc? Was itn110 kgs you said, sub 10% body fat?

  55. blogstrop

    Do you remember the PC injunctions against things like desecrating mosques or (horror of horrors) mishandling a Koran, no matter how cheap and unworthy the edition?

    No problem for ISIS, who cheerfully demolish all sorts of holy sites, according to this report. (via Bolt).

    I’ll repeat also, that a high-profile BBC reporter a while back interviewed that American Christian pastor who threatened to burn a Koran. He may have been rightly regarded as a bit OTT, but I thought at the time the BBC reporter (who is a mainstay of the World Service) crossed the line in ending the interview by saying (to the guy) that he personally was disgusted by the pastor’s position on the matter. WTF? Stick to reporting, you jumped-up and overpaid, periodically over there, wanker.

  56. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372538, posted on July 7, 2014 at 7:17 pm
    Fair point – how many years on the clock? Had any major surgerie, knee, hip shoulder etc? Was itn110 kgs you said, sub 10% body fat?

    Enough with your homoerotic fantasies.

  57. blogstrop

    Oh, shit. Another goodacre deluge.
    Sinc, can we restrict some of these interlopers (about the same value adding as numbers) to four comments a day? Or do you get income the more trash that gets posted?

  58. oldsalt

    Ari tnx for the Oakeshott link. Are you aware of any published studies on the formation of individualism in developing and new States from an Oakeshott perspective?

    The ‘Big Men’ across the Asia Pacific who in the process of ‘becoming a more complete person [individual]‘ raise themselves out of the village collective by force, then perpetrate atrocities to avoid losing their new status, prestige and power and returning to the nothingness of village life, seems relevant here and may provide clues pro and con Oakeshott’s take on Western Europe.

  59. Joe Goodacre

    Tussling with me is your fantasy – you’ve mentioned it three separate times now. You’ve already seen pictures of me, I’m just trying to understand what I’m meant to be fantasizing about. Maybe this is the first time I’ve been hit on by a gay – I just haven’t been reading the sign. Do you want me to send you dirty picture, is that it?

  60. Joe Goodacre

    I don’t know, maybe this is what grooming is nowdays.

  61. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372556, posted on July 7, 2014 at 7:28 pm
    Tussling with me is your fantasy – you’ve mentioned it three separate times now. You’ve already seen pictures of me, I’m just trying to understand what I’m meant to be fantasizing about. Maybe this is the first time I’ve been hit on by a gay – I just haven’t been reading the sign. Do you want me to send you dirty picture, is that it?

    Go away Joe. If you won’t, then at least try to formulate your weird fantasies into complete sentences.

  62. Aristogeiton

    Joe Goodacre
    #1372564, posted on July 7, 2014 at 7:32 pm
    I don’t know, maybe this is what grooming is nowdays.

    Joe, grooming is the befriending and influence of a child by a paedophile. I don’t think that you’re a child, except in the matter of your intellectual capability.

  63. Joe Goodacre

    Ok now I’m feeling a little groomed…
    ‘go away… but if you don’t…

    Nah you’re all good Ari, groom away. As you’ve said though, I’m one ugly fellow – you can probably do better.

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