Carbon capers

So, the carbon tax remains at least for the present, as Palmer United and Ricky Muir oppose its repeal, claiming absence of guarantees that the repeal savings would be passed on.  Eric Abetz claims the government provided such guarantees and the ACCC has been desperately searching for a way to identify and police the anticipated price reductions. 

Removing the carbon tax itself means a 13 per cent reduction in prices to households and rather more to most industrial users (because they have a smaller share of network expenses in their total costs). 

But complications include the knock-on effect of renewable energy costs.  These will increase unless the Renewable Energy Target (RET) Review (due to report this month) results in changes, because the high cost (mainly wind) renewable supplies will lose the de facto $24 per MWh subsidy they get from the carbon tax.  That subsidy amounts to about 40 per cent of the wholesale price.  And political ruminations have a very marked effect on these prices.  The spot price for renewable energy increased by a fifth once Palmer United said they were inclined to retain the scheme.  That effect alone would arithmetically increase prices to households by half a per cent. 

Once the carbon tax is repealed we would expect to see a reduction of household prices close to the 13 per cent because the degree of retail competition in most states is such that the retailers will be forced to pass on cost reductions or see market share losses. 

But, the complications of other regulatory interventions in energy aside, this may not occur immediately because retailers will have bought forward their energy on terms that may involve some cost sharing for the carbon tax obligations. They will try to pass these costs forward and in the short term may be able to do so. 

The ACCC would never be able to determine the extent of such “justifiable costs” to the thirty plus individual retailers if it were to be the price justification tribunal; still less would it be able to attribute costs to the hundreds of different tariffs.  And if it tried to do so this would require very intrusive regulations Liberal Democrat senator David Leyonhjelm has said he would oppose. 

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129 Responses to Carbon capers

  1. Aristogeiton

    Excellent post!

  2. steve

    I give up, Australians are idiots!

  3. James B

    This Palmer scumbag is getting on my nerves.

    Why the fuck can’t him and his moronic group just repeal this stupid tax?

  4. Robbo

    James B
    #1376111, posted on July 10, 2014 at 3:43 pm
    This Palmer scumbag is getting on my nerves.

    Why the fuck can’t him and his moronic group just repeal this stupid tax?

    The man is a moron James but the scary part is that he is a lot smarter than the fools he is leading, and that includes that whack job Muir who wouldn’t know if a tram was up him unless it rang its bell. The Federal Parliament is being controlled by these loonies and they are holding the entire nation hostage. Want a good reason to abolish the Senate? You now have one.

  5. PEB

    Have a look at Palmer. He is whale. He obviously cannot control what he puts in his mouth.
    Now behaviour is usually consistent. If you look at his business dealings they are also consistent. It is hard to find any of his companies that makes any money. He is also devoted to some very unusual business dealings.
    I think that this all means that he is going to be a very unreliable person to deal with.

  6. .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    Now that palmer has a modicum of power,he is safer from prosecution for deceitfull acts,bodering on embezelment? This I suspect is why he entered politics,the more power the less chance of prosecution.taking a leaf out of union labors old trick,Jo must have taught him well.why in the name of God would a Billionaire buy a seat in the lower house,and finance a bunch of losers in the senate ,using money suspected of being illegally obtained. As if the cesspit that is politics needs more assholes. Still if he pinched the money he is in good company in this parliament. Investigate All pollies for corruption and Tax Evasion,bet you would be surprised at the results.

  7. Token

    why in the name of God would a Billionaire buy a seat in the lower house,and finance a bunch of losers in the senate ,using money suspected of being illegally obtained.

    When the media believed its job was to be something other than cheerleaders for one team, such an individual would’ve been exposed.

    Palmer is the type of person who always triumphs once a society loses its way.

  8. Baldrick

    How is it, in a so-called democracy, that the people who attracted the fewest votes, get elected to the Senate and hold the country to ransom? Something is wrong, very wrong.

  9. candy

    Another Palmer stunt.

    I don’t suppose they can delay the repeal of the CT until after Clive Palmer’s next instalment is due. Although he doesn’t pay it anyway or waits till the ATO chases him up.

  10. incoherent rambler

    Investigate All pollies for corruption and Tax Evasion,bet you would [not] be surprised at the results.

  11. incoherent rambler

    The carbon tax, RET and potential ETS, add up to some very serious dollars.
    Don’t expect the recipients of benefits of these governments goodies to take repeal lightly. Bankers (amongst many others) will be lobbying very hard for the retention of the status quo.

  12. egg_

    I suspect is why he entered politics,the more power the less chance of prosecution.taking a leaf out of union labors old trick

    +1

    And ensuring his biz he pays no carbon (back) tax.

  13. struth

    Watch out watch out….Palmer’s throwing his weight around.

  14. incoherent rambler

    Was it Tony Abbott that promised us ‘Adult Government’?

  15. James B

    Yeah, Palmer and his flock are being lobbied hard by all the multinational green energy firms that will lose out from the repeal of the carbon tax.

  16. Roger

    When the media believed its job was to be something other than cheerleaders for one team, such an individual would’ve been exposed.

    Hedley Thomas has been doing a good job of exposing Palmer’s foibles in The Australian, Token.

  17. Mark

    IR – Abbott promised an adult government and we have it. The ones that are childish are the opposition , greens and PUP. We cant put of with this rubbish for another three years – pull the trigger Tony . Put the carbon tax to the people and get these idiots out once and for all.

  18. val majkus

    I say go for a DD if they can’t get it through
    Clive would have some probs financing another election bid
    and if Labor win well – if the Aust voter is that gullible (or stupid) let it be

  19. John Comnenus

    My headline Meme that the LNP needs to now get out is that Palmer has broken an electoral promise. Who would have thought that a vote for Palmer is a vote for the ALP and Greens. How many times do imbeciles in the bush need to be sold out by populists before they get the message. Palmer lied – it is as simple as that. My question to Palmer is what undertakings did he give Al Gore?

  20. Rob

    Australia is in big trouble – ungovernable.

  21. egg_

    My question to Palmer is what undertakings did he give Al Gore?

    Make more out of carbon trading than his mining biz is losing in carbon tax (/get out of his mining interests)?

  22. incoherent rambler

    val majkus -
    I say go for a DD if they can’t get it through
    Clive would have some probs financing another election bid
    and if Labor win well – if the Aust voter is that gullible (or stupid) let it be

    Val, I agree with your respected opinion.
    I think, the ALP would also have some election financing issues.

  23. I suspect is why he entered politics,the more power the less chance of prosecution.taking a leaf out of union labors old trick

    And so he can say his unhinged shyte under parliamentary privelege.

  24. Roger

    Australia is in big trouble – ungovernable.

    Well, there’s always the possibility we could become the Greece of the South Seas but we’re a long way from that at present. The current impasse appears to be over some poorly drafted amendments from the PUP (what a surprise!) but the government will prevail in time. I have to say though that a DD will become more attractive if this circus continues.

  25. Leo G

    “why in the name of God would a Billionaire buy a seat in the lower house,and finance a bunch of losers in the senate ,using money suspected of being illegally obtained.”

    Not so much in the name of God as much as in the name of the ruling political party of the People’s Republic of China.
    Palmer appears to have acknowledged allegiance to a foreign power and thereby acted to disqualify himself as a member of parliament.
    The acknowledgement is twofold. First, he has a contract with Citic Pacific, a corporation wholly under the control of a foreign power. Second, he has apparently accepted management of monies on behalf of that foreign power and used part of those monies to provide election funding for his election to the House of Representatives and for the election of members of the Palmer United Party to the Parliament.

  26. val majkus
    #1376169, posted on July 10, 2014 at 4:30 pm

    I say go for a DD if they can’t get it through
    Clive would have some probs financing another election bid
    and if Labor win well – if the Aust voter is that gullible (or stupid) let it be

    Agree absolutely Val – as I have already said – PM Abbott must plan to “go the double”

  27. .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    Palmer has a great capacity for finding misfits for his cover party,a broken down rugby player, an asian, a man who is unemployed and has not paid Tax for years and a professional compo recipient! It takes an inate sense of understanind people to assemble a crew like this. One term wonders I should think,including oalmer,if the Chinese dont get him,the Voters will.

  28. Empire

    The clusterfuck that is advancing statanism.

    Unravelling the regulatory menagerie will be harder than Rocco Siffredi.

  29. Roger

    Palmer has a great capacity for finding misfits for his cover party,a broken down rugby player, an asian, a man who is unemployed and has not paid Tax for years and a professional compo recipient!

    Since when is an Asian a misfit, Fred?
    I don’t know whether the fellow concerned can make a meaningful contribution to parliament or not, but being Asian hardly disqualifies him for the role.

  30. .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    The Asian is one of palmers emlployees I have been told,that is what I meant.I have lots of Asian friends ,and have had them for many years.
    I dont know his name and have never heard of him before,I am sure he will not survive another election .

  31. John Comnenus

    Palmer breaks promise – that’s all that counts. It’s the Gillard – Milne – Palmer Carbon Tax now.

  32. Roger

    Thanks for the clarification, Fred.

  33. struth

    Yes yes , misfits and morons……but what has changed?
    My point is before the senate changed there were just as many misfits and there was no way the carbon tax was going to be repealed.
    It’s just now we can again see the possibility of success, but frustratingly, after waiting so long, a few wallies can still stuff Australia.
    We had no hope before ..

  34. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    The Palmer United Party member who was in the Military Police – I believe it is the Israelis who refer to the Military Police as “The maximum task for minimum minds.”

  35. Want a good reason to abolish the Senate? You now have one.

    Liberty Quote.

  36. struth

    In saying that I still think the senate should go.

  37. And Another Thing

    I agree that Abbott must pull the double dissolution trigger. He has the high moral ground and there is no hope of getting any budget savings through the asylum that passes for the Senate these days. Shorten would have to cobble together his own economic rescue, and that would be an absolute farce. It’s dangerous, but despite the polls I reckon the labor-loony alliance would have no hope of being elected.

  38. entropy

    Palmer is just repeating what he did after the election, when he forced multiple recounts in Fairfax even though he had won the seat. For some reason he is a firm believer in maximising the amount of time he is in the media. Regardless of how inane the reason.

  39. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    a professional compo recipient

    Always glad to provide a chuckle, John.

    BTW, shouldn’t the knowledge that a ‘compo recipient’ was running for the Senate, trigger a review of said compo?

  40. feelthebern

    Maybe Clive can take heed of what Jeff is saying.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ-FQLK2fH4

  41. incoherent rambler

    ‘compo recipient’ – does that get put on the register of pecuniary interests?
    If not, it is probably time to declare the senate result in Victoria invalid and demand a new senate election.

  42. Bruce of Newcastle

    I am sad that the people in the Senate cannot see how damaging this tax is to Australia. It must be worth at least half a percent on the unemployment rate, probably more. And the RET almost certainly is worth that much again.

    Even using the silliest and most lurid sky-is-falling assumptions it does absolutely nothing for CO2 emissions really. The temperate change would be a millionth of a degree, if that. They’d get vastly more reduction by pushing CSG and shale gas, given that all of the US’s reductions are due to fracking.

    And anything we do in a year China offsets in an hour of their energy use growth. So its completely futile anyway.

    I am mystified.

  43. val majkus

    Shorten would have to cobble together his own economic rescue, and that would be an absolute farce. It’s dangerous, but despite the polls I reckon the labor-loony alliance would have no hope of being elected.

    I personally think a DD is the right way to go – even if the Coalition loses – well at least they would have tried
    Palmer et al are looking like a repetition of Oakshott/Windsor and we know how well that turned out

  44. val majkus

    I am mystified.

    call it RBS or rigid brain syndrome
    Bruce, these people don’t keep up – they sprout yesterday’s mantra

  45. incoherent rambler

    I am mystified.

    Me too. CO2 at 0.04% is worse than plague. Argon at 0.93% is OK. I am suprised that the greens have not picked up on Krypton at 0.0001% of the atmosphere, this could cause the rise of Superman (amongst other things yet to be imagined).
    Every dollar that is trashed on the CO2 crappola could be spent on medical research, hunger, third world disease … i.e. something that benefits humanity

  46. Leo G

    I personally think a DD is the right way to go – even if the Coalition loses – well at least they would have tried

    If the PUP amendments are included in the bill, presented next week to the Senate, and defeated, won’t that disable the DD trigger?

  47. Jannie

    Yeah, time for a DD. even if the Libs lose that would be better than the present. The Libs may be in the cockpit, but the controls are welded to nosedive, and they can’t fly the plane.

  48. .

    Unravelling the regulatory menagerie will be harder than Rocco Siffredi.

    Now THAT’S a liberty quote.

    I say, we don’t need to remove the Senate, never under the current arrangement of the executive, rather, we need recall elections.

  49. Billious

    Alan Moran appears to strongly believe that 13% will flow to the punters in cost reductions as if this was writ in stone and is to be believed, because Tony told me so.
    “Removing the carbon tax itself means a 13 per cent reduction in prices to households” then
    “Once the carbon tax is repealed we would expect to see a reduction of household prices close to the 13 per cent because…”

    Have to call you on this Alan… especially speaking as if it is as simple as…
    Kill Carbon Tax = 13% Happiness.

    Thursday in the Senate is historic for seeing the PUP and Ricky trying it on for what appears to be a better deal for the little guys… ha ha ha.

    Deluded… but a believer in something. Not sure what though.

    Billious

  50. .

    Surprise surprise, that fat fucking Cane Toad (thanks Keating) Laurie Oakes believes that PUP are basically destroying the LNP.

  51. Eyeguy

    Palmer really frightens me. I really think we should be looking more at what actually motivates him, and that,simply, boils down to a pathological hatred of the LNP. the record shows that he was a major contributor to the party, and then got thrown out because he thought he could make Newman do what he (Palmer) wanted in his own self-interest when the LNP won. Now, he’s using his power in the senate to basically fuck over the elected government of the country. The fact that the left wing press is sucking up to him simply because he is causing Abbott666 grief should be enough to alert anyone with two functioning brain cells.
    However, we at the Cat are “engaged” with the political process, and although my alpha male brain says ” Go for the DD” I don’t have enough faith in my fellow countrymen and women to make the right decision.
    so, it’s going to boil down to a war of attrition until the Chinese really take the fool on in court, and then hopefully the whole sham of the PUP will be exposed.

  52. Roger

    Palmer really frightens me. I really think we should be looking more at what actually motivates him, and that,simply, boils down to a pathological hatred of the LNP.

    Spot on, Eye. Palmer is Oakeshott-Windsor writ large.

  53. .

    Palmer pulled some stunt about “betrayal” whereas his amendments were impossible for the Senate to create. He then talked up a High Court challenge.

    I think he’s just a vengeful prick. A modern day Heathcliff.

  54. Dianeh

    Clive has been too smart by half. Yes, he is sticking it to Abbot but at the same time he didn’t repeal the carbon tax. What do the people that voted for Palmer want. They want the carbon tax gone. The excuses for not doing it will it resonate with PUP voters. He has broken his promise. And his supporters voted for him because the ‘rest’ have broken their promises.

  55. rafiki

    It is too facile to say that it would not matter that much if the Coalition lost a DD held in the near or even medium future (taking the next 2 and a bit years as our time frame.) (The chance that they would lose is quite high). The Liberals might well fracture, and in any event be a spent force for the foreseeable future, or perhaps forever. We could look forward to many years of a Labor/Greens alliance. The RC into the unions would probably be shut down, and any recommendations for reform Heydon and managed to make ignored. The power of corrupt and/or just stupid union heavies would increase. Debt would continue to pile up and a crisis result. (Some in Labor would see the problem, but the Greens would not permit much to be done). The mendicants in society would be pandered to, and uncontrolled immigration from societies that hate us would build up again. etc etc

    The Coalition needs to hang on until the next election, or unless some dramatic event – such as perhaps some ‘issues’ for a SLF – occurs. It is quite possible that Palmer will have serious issues too, and lead to a fracturing of the PUPs. But even if the Coalition faces defeat after defeat in the Senate, they need to hammer home their message. If they continue to behave as adults, and if Heydon’s RC makes good headway into exposing Labor/union corruption, the Coalition might get back in front.

  56. Dianeh

    /will it resonate with PUP voters./ will NOT resonate with PUP voters/

  57. .

    rafiki

    They can always hold DD triggers like the sword of Damocles.

  58. nerblnob

    So its completely futile anyway.

    I am mystified.

    When I put that to my greenie rellies, they argue “but shouldn’t Australia be setting an example?”

    I try to explain that nobody is looking to Australia for examples, except perhaps proponents of this tax elsewhere desperately trying to boost their case.

  59. GlendaH

    I also vote for a DD. The inmates have broken out of the asylum and are out in the streets directing traffic.

  60. And Another Thing

    If the Coalition took the DD risk and lost, Shorten would probably be the last Labor prime minister for 50 years. The freeloader boats would be back with a vengeance and the economy would continue its journey to hell in a handcart.
    I think there’s nothing wrong with Tony Abbott as PM. He’s a Rhodes Scholar, his heart’s in the right place, and he seems to have made a big impression overseas. It’s just that the left’s obsessive disinformation campaign against him is paying dividends, and this is at a severe cost to Australia. If he overcomes the way the deck is stacked against him, it’ll be nothing more than he deserves.

  61. Ubique

    The Government should issue Treasury instructions to simply stop collecting the carbon tax – except from Clive Palmer’s companies seeing as how he is so keen to keep paying it.

  62. Eyeguy

    rafiki
    I can see where you are coming from, but, alas, my poor country, I don’t think we could survive another bout of Lab/Greenfilth government….Keatings banana republic writ large with idiots in control and so up themselves with their twisted view of reality that the productive rest would either take tax evasion to a new high ( totally vindicated in my opinion) or just leave the place to rot.
    The DD sword is a good analogy, and should be used whenever possible.
    palmers popularity in his own seat has tanked, but the North Coast is Boganville and you can never predict what they will do.

  63. Dianne

    I give up, Australians are idiots!

    Your right – I give up.

    Let’s go to a DD. I’m one of the people that PAYS tax, not TAKES tax I’m also of an age where I will still get a pension. & I’ve been working full fucking time since I was 17. During that time I’ve managed to put myself through Uni, run a successful business for 20 years & I’ve never taken more than 3 weeks off work. No kids, a mortgage that could choke a horse, but you get that! I earn good money & I don’t salary sacrifice to the point where I pay no tax. I believe that we should all pay our fair share.

    So, let’s have at it. If the country decides it is every man for himself, then I’m going to spend every fucking waking moment, reducing my tax so that I pay the least that I possibly can. The savings aren’t going into Super – I’m going to piss it up against a wall.

    Then my Super, which has been going along nicely in my SMSF for the last few years is going to pay off the house, and I’m still of an age where the govie will top me up to a nice level.

    Fuck em! Why should I worry about their fucking kids not being able to have the quality of life that I do. If this country has finally got down to the Fuck You Jack, I’m alright stage, then I’m for it. Fuck em.

  64. Eyeguy

    AAT
    Great point…..couldnt agree more. TA may not be the libertarians poster boy, but he’s a he ‘s a he’ll of a lot better than the other options……except for maybe Scottie!

  65. GerardO

    The Carbon Tax was the biggest overreaction in political history. What a waste of time and energy over something so trivial. I hope it’s another 70 years before another hung parliament so no more of these backroom deals are ever forced on the Australian public again.

  66. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    We’re all justifiably angry, but calmer heads should prevail – at least until the dust settles.

    My first response tonight was for a DD, and so effin’ what if Abbott loses. Because that is likely:

    the left’s obsessive disinformation campaign against him is paying dividends, and this is at a severe cost to Australia

    And that is why Abbott could well lose. The Libs have appalling communications in place (t’anks Peta, says HIA). The electorate is confused and concerned. They can’t see sense in charging for trips to the doctor and not using the money saved for something useful, like paying down debt or improving hospitals. They do not see a medical ‘research’ slush fund as anything good given what Abbott has been telling them about the national credit card. Nor do they see the expensive PPL scheme as fitting easily with the ‘we’re heading towards broke’ message. If Abbott could fix these two things tomorrow, and revisit taking away Family Tax Benefit B (well, that’s what my swampy contacts are complaining about most), then things would look up for him and a DD then may become a possibility, and the program to get Australia back on its feet again need not be lost.

    Palmer is an idiot and a fool; the left are playing him like a violin. His wife should tell him.
    I suspect he will come round after the big attention festival.
    Don’t watch the ABC tonight. Bad for your blood pressure.
    It will be full of my enemy’s enemy is my friend re Palmer.

  67. Viva

    Looks like we turned into Washington DC- gridlock for as far as the eyes can see.

  68. Gab

    There will be no DD over this Palmer issue. The Libs will add Palmer’s latest 11th hour amendments and present it again next week when it is likely to be passed…unless Palmer pulls another stunt like he did today and blames Abbott, yet again.

  69. JohnA

    Please don’t forget that the DD comes with a price tag:
    a) $50million in dollars
    b) some definite but unspecified loss of “political capital” because Australian voters may be stupid as some assert, but they hate politicians and unnecessary elections about equally

    So to succeed, there needs to be some much greater addition to the political capital jackpot to make a DD worth the risks.

    Some of that will include demonstrating or manifesting which Senators (we know your names) are the blockers, and that will take some time, and a pile of blocked legislation accumulating like a snowdrift.

  70. M Ryutin

    If the PUP amendments are included in the bill, presented next week to the Senate, and defeated, won’t that disable the DD trigger?

    Yes

  71. And Another Thing

    Have you ever noticed a certain childishness about Palmer’s speech. Every so often he’ll add another couple of words as if relieved to have put a sentence together. Sounds like a pre-teen. How this clown ever got to be a billionaire is a total mystery to me.

  72. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Pickering has a nice clear, simple explanation of events, useful for telling your uninformed workmates:

    This is what happened that led to this morning’s farce:

    Last night Clive sat up in bed with four Big Macs and two litres of Coke perusing the many amendments he had made to the Carbon Tax Repeal Bill, all of which the Government had already agreed to.

    Just as he was quaffing down the third Big Mac, he thought of another ripper idea… instead of making the penalty for not passing on the Carbon Tax savings $1.3 million, he could make it a percentage fine, an amount of 250%, or two and a half times what companies’ were alleged to be defrauding consumers of.

    Clive finished the fourth Big Mac, burped, farted and went to sleep.

    When Clive’s new amendment hit the Senate this morning the Clerks choked on their Weet Bix at this new “percentage” bit. It constituted an appropriations amendment. And anything that even smells of an appropriation cannot be generated from the Senate. So they refused to circularise it. It was dead.

    The Coalition immediately went into damage control and told Clive they would agree to this new “percentage” stuff, but it was all too late.

    Clive’s new amendment had to be generated from the Lower House and the Reps won’t sit until next week. Oh dear, what a balls up.

    Clive immediately went into Clive mode claiming the Government had, “pulled a swifty”. Of course the Government hadn’t pulled any bloody thing, it was Clive doing all the pulling and it wasn’t just swifties.

    He clearly hadn’t realised what he’d done. Nor did the Press (well, you can understand the Press gallery not understanding anything).

    Incredibly it took Ricky Muir and Glenn Lazarus to explain to Clive what had happened.

    Clive then faced the cameras and tried to bluster his way through the mess he had just created by blaming the Government.

    Clive’s proposed amendment (which only applies to “energy” based companies) is a total nonsense and the Government readily agreed to it, knowing it to be a nonsense, unquantifiable and unenforceable.

    The Government’s claim of $550 per annum savings to each household after the tax is repealed is also a nonsense. It’s just an arbitrary figure they had to have, and it’s equally unquantifiable.

    Prices rise and fall in a competitive environment due to supply and demand. The carbon tax was an impost on everything and prices will drop, but by how much is anyone’s guess and it would be impossible to determine how much of any price fall could be attributed to there being no carbon tax.

    The ACCC would never consider imposing fines on companies where a carbon tax component cannot be quantified. It would be a litigation nightmare and a lawyers’ picnic!

    The world will have moved on from Gillard’s carbon tax and all sorts of things will have contributed to rises and falls in the interim.

    Mining companies are at the mercy of exchange rates, variations in indented orders, world prices, variable costs of extraction per tonne, union demands and tax deductions for transportation and exploration costs and an array of other stuff.

    Airlines have recently been in a fight to the death over pricing. When they call a halt to the price war, what percentage of an ensuing price rise is it that cannot be blamed on a defunct carbon tax?

    When another price war forces prices down what component of that will be due to healthy competition and what component to a non-existent carbon tax?

    Clive’s amendment has no time limit! So, in ten years’ time, will a food company intending to raise its price on marmalade need to keep one eye on a non-existent carbon price and another eye on the market price of oranges?

    The whole concept is bloody ridiculous! But not too ridiculous for Clive to entertain.

    So, the main question that arose out of today’s debacle is how the hell did this galah they call Clive ever make a quid anyway?

    Perhaps it was someone else’s quid, now that would explain it.

  73. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Why should I worry about their fucking kids not having the same quality of life that I do

    With you on that one, Dianne.

  74. jumpnmcar

    Palmer wants to get abolish the fringe benefits tax, give him that Tony.

  75. .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    With a bit of luck the Chinese will Screw palmer and after the next election he will diappear up his own ample Ego.

  76. M Ryutin

    Not having posted hardly at all that much, especially lately with the federal political scene sinking to such depths, the comments here about bringing on a DD made me think of something I DID post seven month ago, seeing they seemed to jell a bit with what I wrote then in http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/12/06/and-more-astonishing-stuff-from-a-helpful-gummit/comment-page-1/#comment-1101007.

    “…the Abbott government is at a critical stage in the matter of its very survival as a group that can even be allowed to govern……….By the ALP joining with Greens to disallow TPV’s and oppose the savings in policies they took to the election themselves showed that they have decided on a policy of not only opposing everything, but that they are determined to disallow whenever they can the government to reduce the deficit in any way. They aim to blame the government for not improving anything yet deny them the opportunity to do so.”
    and
    This Senate is a lost cause and all of you should know that, but to have hopes that a new Senate would make the difference is foolish. While the Liberal Democrat is seemingly loved by classic libertarians, real people see his participation generally as partial only. But anyone who has the slightest faith that the Clive Palmer stooges would ever see reason, even on the carbon tax – where their lord and master wants his money back – needs their heads read!”

    And I still quite like my solution now that I re-read it again:-
    keeping public confidence as much as is possible while at the same time piling up legislation, win or lose on them, until an early election or, as I hope, a Double Dissolution can get something through?”

  77. candy

    It was a pre-thought out stunt by Clive Palmer to make Tony Abbott and Libs look begging, not an accident.
    He did a stunt one week ago with Al Gore. It’s how he does things.

    Announcing a DD because of this would look quite childish and rash. A little time is in order?

  78. Rob MW

    Perhaps it’s time for the government to review it policy to repeal the ‘Mining Tax’ and make it actually collect some tax by lowering the threshold or definition of a ‘super profit’. May be a little peer-pressure on Palmer from his (if any) mining mates might loosen his consistency for being a stupid wannabe prick.

    Just a thought is all.

  79. egg_

    It was a pre-thought out stunt by Clive Palmer to make Tony Abbott and Libs look begging, not an accident.
    He did a stunt one week ago with Al Gore. It’s how he does things.

    +1

    As others have stated previously, Clive’s very good at looking after Clive, hence the numpties in his Senate army.

  80. evcricket

    It’s a shame you marred this fairly lucid post by being incorrect. Your assumption that all generators are passing on the full tax is demonstrably false. Oh well, better luck next time Alan.

  81. Tel

    Australia is in big trouble – ungovernable.

    Rubbish.

    The measure of good governance is absolutely not passing lots of legislation. Hever has been, never will be. We could go for three years with no new legislation whatsoever and we would be none the worse for it, indeed the lack of surprises would give business a chance to catch up on the paperwork for a change.

  82. On cue eager beaver rolls in and soils himself.

  83. Tel

    It was a pre-thought out stunt by Clive Palmer to make Tony Abbott and Libs look begging, not an accident.

    Yeah I agree, it is populist attention grabbing, the guy is in the mining business, he doesn’t want a Carbon Tax.

  84. The measure of good governance is absolutely not passing lots of legislation.

    Absolutely Tel, or to quote a great man;

    Every time you pass a new law you take someones privileges away – Kerry Frances Bullmore Packer

  85. sabrina

    Whether 13% drop eventuates, we will see. Woolworths (and Qantas for airfare0 are saying that there will not be any drop in their prices.

  86. Tel

    It’s worse than just taking away privelege. Suppose the law is 10 pages of legislation, in most cases that would be 10 pages of piecewise ammendments to existing legislation. So now you have to dig up the existing legislation, try to figure out whether you were compliant with that and try to remember what (if anything) you did to get compliant. Those 10 pages become 100 pages of relevant documentation. Then you start going through the new ammendments and puzzle out what has really changed, and typically run up a list of questions for your lawyer.

    Then the lawyer rarely gives a straight answer, especially on new legislation, so you read the “fact sheets” from the various government web pages, some of those can help, many are close to useless. If you every try ringing that department they will tell you to go to the web page and read the “fact sheets” and when you tell them you already did that, they just say, “Hmmmm, go read the fact sheets.” I’m not kidding.

    Plenty of small business just weighs up the risk of non-compliance with the costs of even figuring out how to comply and almost always decides to do whatever they did last year and hope for the best.

    Now multiply this by every law abiding citizen (OK, I said that wrong, multiply by every nominally law abiding citizen) … 100 pages by 20 million people by at least half an hour per page and thatś the minimal cost for every single piece of crap that goes through the Senate.

    I like people who vote “No”.

    I vote “Yes” for voting “No”.

    The only thing broken about the Senate is that it lets through too much bloody legislation.

  87. val majkus

    it’s not just the carbon tax which will probably get through but

    MEASURES being blocked in the Senate will leave the budget as much as $7 billion worse off than if the government had done nothing at all.

    With the combined numbers of Labor, the Greens and the Palmer United Party blowing a further $2bn hole in the budget yesterday by rejecting tax legislation, the tally of measures that the Senate appears likely to block has reached $43bn over the next four years.

    This exceeds the $36bn net savings achieved by the Coa­l­ition’s first budget, after allowing for the loss of revenue from abolish­ing the carbon and mining taxes.

    The g­overnment has not lost hope of eventually persuading the Senate to support key measures. Finance Minister Mathias Cormann said yesterday that the government would keep making the case for savings.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/senate-kills-all-savings-in-budget/story-fn59niix-1226983614754

  88. red breast

    We seem to have forgotten it is not only Clive and his PUPs’ fault. There seems to be little blame, discussion or pressure being put on Bill and the ALP who, prior to the election promised to drop the carbon tax.

  89. Tel

    … blowing a further $2bn hole in the budget yesterday by rejecting tax legislation …

    No no no. Budgets are blown by spending.

  90. Megan

    The measure of good governance is absolutely not passing lots of legislation. Hever has been, never will be. We could go for three years with no new legislation whatsoever and we would be none the worse for it, indeed the lack of surprises would give business a chance to catch up on the paperwork for a change.

    Could not agree more.

  91. val majkus

    well I for one want the Clean Energy Authority abolished and that can’t be done without legislation

  92. val majkus

    the Human Rights Commission is also a statutory authority
    http://www.dfat.gov.au/issues/human-rights/

    Australia’s Human Rights Framework, launched in 2010, sets out a range of Australia’s key measures to further protect and promote human rights in Australia’s domestic policy. It is based on five key principles and focuses on:
    •reaffirming a commitment to our human rights obligations
    •the importance of human rights education
    •enhancing our domestic and international engagement on human rights issues
    •improving human rights protections including greater parliamentary scrutiny, and
    •achieving greater respect for human rights principles within the community.

    that’s all feel good stuff but when we’re addressing waste ….

  93. val majkus

    abolishing the Australian Renewable Energy Agency would require legislation

  94. val majkus

    not all legislation is bad … when we’re over regulated I’d be happy to see legislation passed to correct that

  95. JamesS

    Krudds biggest mistake was not calling an early election in 2010 after the Copenhagen Carbon Capers. He would have romped it in. Let the Union RC run it’s course for another 6 months and see if TA is up to his own great moral challenge – a DD that is.

  96. fry

    what a sf

    cannot believe the government is so incompetent

    is Rudd advising them?

  97. Kev, in the Canberra dome

    Once the carbon tax is repealed we would expect to see a reduction of household prices close to the 13 per cent because the degree of retail competition in most states is such that the retailers will be forced to pass on cost reductions or see market share losses.

    Retail compe-whurh? Consider we postcode proles living in the endless back pocket buggery that is also known as the People’s Republic of Canberra. I just received a letter from Benevolent Government Energy Concern telling me that my gas will cost over 14% more and electricity about 5% more over the next 12 months, and if I don’t like it I can possibly visit some kind of green info kiosk in the city or something to find out how stupid I actually, is. I’d throw a log on the fire, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed to do that any more down here without some kind of licence? Oh how I would love some warm fireworks right now!
    From the dome,

  98. MartinG

    incoherent rambler
    #1376157, posted on July 10, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    Was it Tony Abbott that promised us ‘Adult Government’?

    You can blame Abbott for a shit load of stuff ups but you can’t blame him for the cognitively challenged PUPs.

  99. MartinG

    .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin
    #1376214, posted on July 10, 2014 at 5:09 pm

    The Asian is one of palmers emlployees I have been told,that is what I meant.I have lots of Asian friends ,and have had them for many years.
    I dont know his name and have never heard of him before,I am sure he will not survive another election .

    His name is Dio Wang although his proper Chines name is Zhenya Wang, also known as that Asian bloke.

  100. MartinG

    val majkus
    #1376561, posted on July 10, 2014 at 8:59 pm

    well I for one want the Clean Energy Authority abolished and that can’t be done without legislation

    I think your wrong. Not only is it legislated it is also funded.

  101. johno

    Let the Union RC run it’s course for another 6 months and see if TA is up to his own great moral challenge – a DD that is.

    On current polling, Abbott would go backwards in the Senate in a DD. That would probably mean he would require a joint sitting to get legislation passed. But a joint sitting can only consider legislation that was blocked by the previous Senate, he would not be able to call a joint sitting on new legislation without a future DD. If Green Labor had the numbers in the new Senate, they cold continue to block legislation. Abbott should only consider a DD if the polls suggest he would get control of the Senate.

    Also, I doubt if Bob Day and David Leyonhjelm would be returned in a DD. Not an outcome I would favor.

  102. pattoh

    I guess most of us remember a charachter like Palmer from our school days.

    Clive just never really grew up.

    As for his elected senators; the (primary)schoolyard is a good yardstick.

  103. struth

    Tel and redbreast have got it down.
    Again my point is, while we all laugh (rightly so) at Muir and co, is Sarah Too Young actually any brighter? I would argue that her lot are completely insane and are now sitting back being just as obstructive as any other, while we play the game the media wants us to play. It’s taken more than pup to vote against the repeal. Clive Palmer is a media slut, who will soon shoot himself in the foot.
    His personality shows vividly how he has become wealthy but then lost. He plays big or gambles big but his serious character deficiencies means he can’t keep the win.
    He could be well played politically here by the liberals letting the repeal go and blaming clive, and just sitting on their hands.
    As tell said correctly, we’d be all better off if they did nothing.
    Let’s see how clive would go wearing the badge of honour that he was the one who kept the tax.

  104. struth

    In saying that I understand we would not be better off if they didn’t repeal the tax but they could play hard ball bluff with him and threaten.

  105. Yohan

    The Liberals cannot call a DD because other than the risk of them losing, either way Palmer would end up with 6-7 Senators instead of the 3+1 he currently has. All we have to do it wait, because Clive will be on trial for fraud by the time the next election comes around.

  106. Tel

    Please don’t forget that the DD comes with a price tag:
    a) $50million in dollars

    That’s about 8 hours of government debt under Treasurer Swan. They were running up in the ballpark of $50 billion per year.

  107. JohnA

    .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin #1376414, posted on July 10, 2014 at 7:20 pm

    With a bit of luck the Chinese will Screw palmer and after the next election he will diappear up his own ample Ego.

    Now that is a serendipitous typo!

    What images does that conjure up in your mind, eh? :-)

  108. Diogenes

    As of last night in our household he is he is now known as Cliar Palmer . I know it doesn’t ring as well as Juliar but it’s a start.

  109. Spider

    What Palmer is doing COMPLETELY resonates with his supporters . He is giving it to the man.

    Hold up on the the Carbon Tax repeal because he cares about the little people. Walk out on interviews. Why should he answer those question.

    Wait until the media finally turns as they inevitably will.

  110. struth

    Live by the media sword…………..

  111. The acknowledgement is twofold. First, he has a contract with Citic Pacific, a corporation wholly under the control of a foreign power. Second, he has apparently accepted management of monies on behalf of that foreign power and used part of those monies to provide election funding for his election to the House of Representatives and for the election of members of the Palmer United Party to the Parliament.

    Nothing to see here

  112. Kev, in the Canberra dome

    @Spider – Absolutely right. Clive’s house of cards will fall and hopefully for the country’s sanity sooner than later, but for now there are quite a few clueless sods out there cheering on ‘Aussie Clive’, the billionaire everyman – sticking it to those rich powerful bastards for everyone out there in 5-minute Radio and TV news bite land, who prefer their narratives warmly spoon-fed on the hour! Blech!

  113. Announcing a DD because of this would look quite childish and rash. A little time is in order?

    Absolutely, Candy.

    Give me a go. I’d remind every media inquiry of Palmer’s Carbon Tax repeal promise and state that’s its up to him to ensure that the legislation gets to a point where they can support it. Remind all that this is all part of the argy-bargey of politics and until such time as PUP demonstrate that they obviously have no intention to pass it and are not acting in good faith, then I’ll wait.

    Build the narrative before even considering a DD. It’s a very simple message. It’s time to show some backbone, Tony.

  114. .

    evcricket
    #1376453, posted on July 10, 2014 at 7:47 pm
    It’s a shame you marred this fairly lucid post by being incorrect. Your assumption that all generators are passing on the full tax is demonstrably false. Oh well, better luck next time Alan.

    Yeah right. Some firms don’t incur any costs in paying tax. The mooching subsidy whore said so.

  115. alan moran

    Evcricket, generators will always try to pass on the full costs of the tax. They may not do so in light of competition, in which case they have to downsize. The carbon tax resulted in an immediate lift in the spot market price by something close to its impost.

    They and any other supplier will try to retain the benefits of cost reductions, including tax cuts but competition – and there are half a dozen major generation businesses and another two dozen minor ones in the National Market – will force them to do so.
    Of course if there is no competition (bad luck Canberra Ken) anything can happen.

  116. Spider

    The biggest issue with Clive Parmigiana is the sheer unpredictabilty. And it’s deliberate.

    At least with a certain populist fish and chip shop owner you had a pretty good idea of where she was coming from on any given issue.

    Good luck to the Libs in dealing with this lot.

  117. egg_

    No no no. Budgets are blown by spending.

    Exactly – calls for more cuts, cuts, cuts…

  118. 1234

    Oh joy oh joy. DD election NOW! Go on Tony, I dare you.

  119. 1234

    Abbott, Abetz and Hunt – now there’s a B team. Can’t even manage parliamentary business. Ho ho ho!

  120. Thomas Esmond Knox

    Joh Bjelke-Petersen was never found guilty of any offence.

    Get over it.

  121. MartinG

    1234
    #1377417, posted on July 11, 2014 at 3:21 pm

    Abbott, Abetz and Hunt – now there’s a B team. Can’t even manage parliamentary business. Ho ho ho!

    So you can count up to four. I’m impressed but have you any other talents?

  122. .

    Yep, DD now.

    Any ALP supporter who thinks they will win is delusional.

  123. Aristogeiton

    Let’s be clear. Clive Palmer wants to impose additional regulation upon the electricity sector to force them to “pass on” savings from the repeal of the carbon tax. Here’s why he will never be a business tycoon.

  124. jupes

    Any ALP supporter who thinks they will win is delusional.

    Probably. But what are the chances of increased Greens and PUP in the Senate?

  125. Alfonso

    Indeed, no chance of Labor getting up at a DD.
    My infallible Tradies plus wives regular polling indicates an Abbott win, no probs.

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