Bring back corporal punishment?

Kevin Donnelly has opened a can of worms:

One of the two men reviewing the national school curriculum, Kevin Donnelly, has recounted the “very effective” approach of his former physical education teacher who took misbehaving students aside and dared them to “throw the first punch”.

In a radio interview about behaviour management, Donnelly voiced support for the use of corporal punishment if the school community was in favour of it.

Just not smart at all.

It did remind me, however, of this great Rowan Atkinson skit.

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154 Responses to Bring back corporal punishment?

  1. Infidel Tiger

    Reading, writing and arithmetic would be a better start.

  2. MsDolittle

    In my day girls got the fluffy end of the feather duster.

  3. vlad

    what he should have said is that climate change may require the reintroduction of corporal punishment.

    then it would have been okay

  4. Jock

    While I agree discipline is lacking, this was a silly thing to bring up. It will get the wrong reaction. Frankly the teachers who caned at my school were the ones that got their rocks off doing it.

  5. Jeremy

    I have canvassed this issue at many social occasions. Men and the mothers of boys generally agree that corporal punishment is regrettable but essential. Most women believe that words can have the same disciplinary effect. These women are right where girls are concerned, but completely wrong where boys are concerned. Healthy boys are similar to third world countries, they will agree with anything you say as long as you go away and let them get back to beating up whoever it was. Donnelly is correct, but might as well have been caught writing dirty words on the blackboard, the feminazis and lefties will cane him unmercifully.

  6. MartinG

    MsDolittle
    #1382904, posted on July 15, 2014 at 9:14 pm

    In my day girls got the fluffy end of the feather duster.

    Was that a reward or sexual abuse?

  7. Driftforge

    Legendary. Needs to be brought back without delay.

  8. Peter

    What do you think of the concept applied to minor criminal behaviour?

    The idea being that young offenders do not get jail-time – which often seems to make them worse – but they do get to experience an immediate and painful consequence for their actions.

  9. .

    Fuck me.

    If kids are not interested, most of the time, this means YOU ARE A SHIT TEACHER.

    Please read and watch as much Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto as possible.

  10. MartinG

    I was at a all boys school. Most of the teachers were there because we were on the edge of a government housing estate and they were less than well trained in educating than schools that had a ‘better class of pupil’.

    Some where thugs others homosexual and one or two displayed dubious sexual behavior

  11. Bob

    Bear away Sinc.

    Sixty years ago my mate and I behaved badly in our third year of high school which resulted in 6 “cuts” each from our English teacher. Worked a treat for me. Worked a treat for my mate too.

    No lasting effects, except a lifelong understanding that bad behaviour can be painful. Don’t see a problem there.

  12. Old School Conservative

    Was that Rowan Atkinson or Him Talks from Q&A?

  13. Peter from SA

    If kids are not interested, most of the time, this means YOU ARE A SHIT TEACHER.

    Agree with dot, big time.

  14. Zaphod

    Before the punishment was administered, a Job Hazard Analysis would have be undertaken, which would result in the hazard being controlled using Personal Protective Equipment.

  15. .

    Thanks Peter…and remember:

    Please read and watch as much Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto as possible.

  16. Infidel Tiger

    Corporal punishment will never work when the teachers are female.

    Young boys getting the cane from lefty females is a recipe for disaster.

  17. Old School Conservative

    If kids are not interested, most of the time, this means YOU ARE A SHIT TEACHER.
    I’m glad your qualifier is in there because there are a multitude of other variables that lead to disinterest.

  18. Disillusioned

    Nothing wrong with corporal punishment, met many a corporal who could do with a good flogging.

    Seriously I would like to see it brought back and have Saturday morning floggings in Fed Sq for those violent thugs who seem to avoid jail because of one bullshit excuse or another. Would save a wad for the govt coffers by not having to go full on in court but instead have a summary panel where they plead guilty, take their medicine and move on in life. No names, no pack drill. No impost on the taxpayer. It most certainly should be brought back into schools as suspension serves no purpose in reforming behaviour but only serves to encourage it these days and in the log run society has lost a potential productive person and gained a long term criminal.

  19. Zaphod

    Talk of caning always reminds me of a John Laws classic -
    “I got the cane every second day at school, and it didn’t do me any harm”.

  20. Aussiepundit

    Corporal punishment is too prone to abuse, in all kinds of ways. It attracts sadists, can be used to persecute, and there is no right of appeal.

    A better remedy is suspension and/or expulsion. Schools should have the right to do that.
    They do it, but suspensions typically last only 12 days.

  21. Peter from SA

    Please read and watch as much Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto as possible.

    FMD that is scary stuff. The state moves to control the children.

  22. MsDolittle

    In my day girls got the fluffy end of the feather duster.

    Was that a reward or sexual abuse?

    Nevertheless, it was humiliating. Guess I was a corporal punishment “tailender”. Boom tish!

    DrDo, who received 6 of the best from an overly enthusiastic young sports master says it wasn’t a lot of fun, but didn’t scar him for life but rather made him “aware” and encouraged him not to do whatever it was ever again. I agree with Aussiep… open to too much abuse… Still prospective parents can always vote with their feet & wallets.

  23. Infidel Tiger

    OTOH corporal punishment of teachers is going to far better results than any Gonski style wank.

  24. Tim

    Best teacher I ever had was my year 7 maths teacher, an old Marist Brother who was extremely free with the ruler. He’d ask questions, you had to put your hand up to answer, and if you got it wrong he would whack you on the hand the difference between your response and the right one. Usually not exceptionally hard, but it hurt. Also he was funny about it, which helped. But these were about the only classes in my life that I have paid undivided attention in from start to finish.

  25. JC

    Young boys getting the cane from lefty females is a recipe for disaster.

    They’d love it for a number of reasons and it wouldn’t hurt much.

  26. Peter from SA

    They’d love it for a number of reasons and it wouldn’t hurt much.

    They’d ask for another? (Mam?)

  27. Splatacrobat

    I got caned at the beginning of Science once. When I questioned the teacher what did I do? The teacher said he was getting in early before I played up.When given the choice of after school or lunch detention or the cane, I chose the cane every time.

    I was a bugger at times and usually deserved it.

  28. .

    Peter from SA
    #1383021, posted on July 15, 2014 at 10:28 pm
    Please read and watch as much Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto as possible.

    FMD that is scary stuff. The state moves to control the children.

    Indeed. Those authors are a bloody shock to the system. It is alarming how the state is ruining education in the name of schooling.

  29. Geriatric Mayfly

    Back in the good old days, I remember attempting to give a recidivist scallywag a couple of the best. On the first stroke he pulled his hand away, and the strap followed through and got me in the nuts. Stoic to a degree was I. It maybe not the answer in schools these days. But, those ferals who have left school and have not a civilising bone in their bodies and treat social mores with contempt, I recommend the rattan, to a maximum of six strokes.

  30. Habib

    Contact counselling still has its place.

  31. Tekweni

    Where I was brought up a magistrate could sentence you to a caning for certain minor crimes. This was during the 60′s when I was at school. Couple of blowhards at our school got caught shop lifting. They got 6 cuts from a large constable at the police station. Prior to that they had little respect for the law and were unlucky in eventually getting caught after multiple illegal activities. After their meeting with the cane they were totally law abiding. Got little sympathy in our community as they were bullies too. They had laughed off cuts from our headmaster but I think a large burly policeman was a bit more enthusiastic in his application of the rod!

    However as a pupil and then for a shortish period as a high school teacher I did see some sadistic teachers. However when I was teaching only the head or deputy heads could cane and this was infrequent. However there were always boys who pushed the envelope and made it difficult to teach a class, not because the class as a whole was not receptive but just because there are individuals who just don’t want to be in class. Expulsion and detention were meaningless and just made them heroes within their little groups. Imagine teaching Jacqui Lambie!

  32. A better remedy is suspension and/or expulsion. Schools should have the right to do that.
    They do it, but suspensions typically last only 12 days.

    Time out of school is a punishment? You imbecile.

  33. Gab

    Back in the good old days, parents would actually discipline and socialize their kids so the teachers didn’t have to as much as today.

  34. Bertie_Wooster

    I don’t disagree (as a recent product of a post-modernist influenced Catholic school), but unmistakably shit politics and optics.

    It still stands that this was obviously intended to inflame. The culture wars may be alive and well, but can’t the conservatives pick their battles a little better?

  35. Gab

    A better remedy is suspension and/or expulsion. Schools should have the right to do that.
    They do it, but suspensions typically last only 12 days.

    lol Kids love being suspended, it means days off school to do whatever they want.

    Expulsion? Meh, there’s other schools.

    Whatever happened to detention?

  36. Peter from SA

    Indeed. Those authors are a bloody shock to the system. It is alarming how the state is ruining education in the name of schooling.

    well, dot, I am enjoying what I am learning here …

  37. Thing is, not all schools need it, but all schools need the option.

    It’s a bit like OSB in a way. Things get left to go to crap for too long, you have to go a touch overboard to restore order.

    Was always the VP’s job when I was younger. You either do that or make it a rule that a second teacher has to be in attendance, and the likelihood of abuse drops.

    And yes, canings by female teachers would be a joke. Which points out a rather glaring problem with reintroducing the concept.

  38. MartinG

    I was at an all boys school. Most of the teachers were there because we were on the edge of a government housing estate, and they were less than well trained in educating than schools that had a ‘better class’ of pupil.

    Some where thugs others homosexual and one or two displayed dubious sexual behaviour, there was one who happened to be an arts teacher and was sent to our school after he smashed a chair over the head of a boy at what was called a Grammar School. He was completely insane.

    It was usually best not to retaliate if they dished out their idea of discipline. We would just take the piss until they lost it. The saner ones would just send you to the Head Master who would give you the cane six across the hands being the most at any one time. It really fucking hurt, so it was not looked forward too with any degree of relish.

    None the less we would act up to see who could get caned the most. I came well down the ranks with a combined total of five, one kid got fourteen and took the prized first place.

    I only got on with one of them who just happened to be homosexual. He knew when to call a halt to my smart arse behaviour as he did with the others. He would never hit anyone but would fly into a rage like a wife who was not getting the attention she deserves. He was a good bloke and a good teacher.

    To me it shows that corporal punishment has little value when trying to get through to kids. It’s the character of the teacher that counts most.

  39. Clam Chowdah

    The problem with allowing this approach is that the limits on the teacher’s behaviour that existed when I was a kid are no longer there. In my day, we got the strap but if a father thought the teacher had gone too far then the teacher risked a flogging.

  40. twostix

    I’m not sure if anyone has noticed but there isn’t exactly enough male teachers, let alone masculine male teachers to carry out physical punishment of boys anymore anyway.

    The thought of the two neck-bearded, high voiced, yoga-teaching, beta-male pussies at my kids school reluctantly tapping on my sons backsides with a stick gives me the creeps.

  41. Fisky

    Corporal punishment is only appropriate for people who initiate violence. But the best solution is to beef up the right to self-defence, and not to suspend “both boys” in the name of false even-handedness.

  42. twostix

    Back in the good old days, parents would actually discipline and socialize their kids so the teachers didn’t have to as much as today.

    From the stories I’ve heard I don’t think kids were better in the old days. My uncle got into a fistfight with one of his teachers. My dad often talks about the things they used to get up to (fights, firecrackers, pranks) that would have the police called today in an instant.

    The difference is there were more male teachers around to tell those naughty boys that enough was enough and to shut up and sit down or else. And the or else meant something more than a “contract” or a day off school.

  43. JohnA

    . #1383058, posted on July 15, 2014 at 10:58 pm

    Peter from SA #1383021, posted on July 15, 2014 at 10:28 pm
    Please read and watch as much Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto as possible.

    FMD that is scary stuff. The state moves to control the children.

    Indeed. Those authors are a bloody shock to the system. It is alarming how the state is ruining education in the name of schooling.

    Of course it’s scary stuff. They are critiquing John Dewey. Now THAT is scary(ier).

  44. incoherent rambler

    But the best solution is to beef up the right to self-defence, and not to suspend “both boys” in the name of false even-handedness.

    Second that. Currently, the kid that beats the crap out of the school bully is treated worse than the bully.

  45. Gab

    From the stories I’ve heard I don’t think kids were better in the old days.

    I think they were in terms of the numbers. The prevalence of violence, truancy and attacks on teachers today far outweighs the behaviour in the days of old. And that’s just the girls!

  46. twostix

    But the best solution is to beef up the right to self-defence, and not to suspend “both boys” in the name of false even-handedness.

    It’s is an incredibly punitive and vile system that punishes the victim of violence as much as the aggressor.

    Actually usually the victim is punished more, because they will have done nothing, but the aggressor will have undoubtedly waged a long campaign of violence and aggression towards them. But then the victim finally has enough and makes a fuss once and then is swiftly punished equally in order to demonstrate to other victims of violence not to step out of line.

    Horrible, and unfortunately exactly the kind of tyranny you’d expect to see in a system overrun by leftists.

  47. JohnA

    Clam Chowdah #1383092, posted on July 15, 2014 at 11:19 pm

    The problem with allowing this approach is that the limits on the teacher’s behaviour that existed when I was a kid are no longer there. In my day, we got the strap but if a father thought the teacher had gone too far then the teacher risked a flogging.

    But more often than not, our parents backed up the teacher’s action, because they knew us well enough to know that on the balance of probabilities we got what we deserved, and earned a second helping at home.

    Present day limits on a teacher’s range of options to discipline a class make him/her (usually her) a target for vindictive little brats, and their parents no longer support the school, so it becomes a Blackboard Jungle.

    So much for libertine theories of education.

  48. MsDolittle

    And yes, canings by female teachers would be a joke. Which points out a rather glaring problem with reintroducing the concept.

    Reintroduction of corporal punishment will face many more problems regardless of a teacher’s gender.

  49. MsDolittle

    The prevalence of violence, truancy and attacks on teachers today far outweighs the behaviour in the days of old. And that’s just the girls!

    That’s right Gab. I’m thinking St Trinians. (3 daughters so there is not a lot of wiggle room here).

  50. twostix

    and their parents no longer support the school,

    Before this turns into another blame the parents fest it would do well to point out that schools today are like well guarded soviet gulags designed purely to keep parents out of them and more importantlyto prevent outsiders from knowing what’s going on inside of them.

    “Don’t ask.” “They’ll call you if there’s a problem.”
    “Make an interview first”
    “don’t wait at the door to speak to the teacher” says the literature our kids kindergarten teacher sent home on the first day.

    So no, parents have been shutout, banned, patronised and ridiculed by the school system. Wwe see our kids bullied, harrassed, drugged, “restoratively” justiced, used as guinea pigs in social experiments and indoctrinated with weirdo shit. And then they expect us to suck it up and fall in behind them like good little unquestioning drones?

    I don’t think so.

  51. Nic

    It won’t happen so I wouldn’t worry.

  52. Fisky

    It’s is an incredibly punitive and vile system that punishes the victim of violence as much as the aggressor.

    Actually usually the victim is punished more, because they will have done nothing, but the aggressor will have undoubtedly waged a long campaign of violence and aggression towards them. But then the victim finally has enough and makes a fuss once and then is swiftly punished equally in order to demonstrate to other victims of violence not to step out of line.

    Horrible, and unfortunately exactly the kind of tyranny you’d expect to see in a system overrun by leftists.

    I know full well from personal experience. Leftist teachers, Leftist deputy principals and Leftist counsellors jumped in and had their say about the horrible evil of deterrence and retaliation, but very little insight into why that might be necessary, especially as a relatively small kid/late developer at the time.

    It’s hilarious that those who are always droning on about “empathy” are totally out of tune and on a different wavelength to what is actually going in classrooms, locker rooms and changerooms. They only ever see who throws the last punch and then jump on that person.

    Leftism is a disease that can only be healed through compulsory therapy and heavy medication.

  53. MsDolittle

    Leftist deputy principals and Leftist counsellors

    Couldn’t agree more. What about education being measured – on time, on budget, on target – measured by say, how much parents are willing to pay? Surely the one right thing Gillard ever did “myschool” or whatever it was? Ok so her idea was through a glass darkly, whatever. If it’s a good idea doesn’t matter whose it was. Never thought I would say anything good about that silly slapper – but there you go. Please feel free to pull me apart and set me straight as I don’t feel good about that comment.

  54. twostix

    They only ever see who throws the last punch and then jump on that person.

    That’s the thing isn’t it?

    The only ever seem to see the last punch when its thrown by the long suffering victim.

    They never see the many, many punches, shoves, trip ups, beatings and humilations dished out before hand to the victim. But if the victim responds just once then teachers come from everywhere.

    They only ever see the retaliation, which only ever happens once. So you start to wonder whether teachers in modern schools, unable to met out their own disipline and robbed of all authority tacitly allow certain students, or groups of student, to act as their proxy enforcers. It’s known that in prisons the guards will often let one group have freedom to reign over the prison yard in order to cow the rest of the prisoners.

    Why should schools be any different?

  55. Fisky

    They only ever see the retaliation, which only ever happens once. So you start to wonder whether teachers in modern schools, unable to met out their own disipline and robbed of all authority tacitly allow certain students, or groups of student, to act as their proxy enforcers. It’s known that in prisons the guards will often let one group have freedom to reign over the prison yard in order to cow the rest of the prisoners.

    Why should schools be any different?

    I’ve thought about this before. But I don’t think it’s true of most teachers. They are generally too dim or placid or disengaged or off-with-the-fairies to be so ruthless about outsourcing discipline like that. I think for the most part it’s about cowardice on their part. They don’t want to “tune in” for fear of having more problems to solve.

  56. twostix

    I’ve thought about this before. But I don’t think it’s true of most teachers. They are generally too dim or placid or disengaged or off-with-the-fairies to be so ruthless about outsourcing discipline like that.

    This feels right. But isn’t it the lefts contention, and most of academias that the actors who have authority in a power structure often act out their bias or prejudice subconsciously? That is the teachers might not even know they’re doing it?

  57. oldsalt

    We copped it from the Priests. Their leather straps were thick and heavy. Some lay teachers who otherwise wouldn’t have dared to hit a child became enthusiasts. It was a joke. The kids who delighted in challenging authority wore six cuts on each hand as a badge of courage, street cred. More timid types were reduced to a blubbering mess. There was one, perhaps two seriously deranged sadists. There was one brilliant teacher who went on to a brilliant career in literature. He hated giving the cuts and it was fun watching him angst over it. Kids used to provoke him just to mess with him. Hand out, pull hand away just in time and hear swish in air. Entertainment.

  58. Fisky

    This feels right. But isn’t it the lefts contention, and most of academias that the actors who have authority in a power structure often act out their bias or prejudice subconsciously? That is the teachers might not even know they’re doing it?

    I think their ideology is given to unprincipled even-handedness. But I don’t think that there is anything systematic that mandates outsourcing control over smaller kids to bullies. The main problem is the sentiment that we are all victims, as well as a soft-headed aversion to actually finding out what’s going on.

    Also, a lot of teachers are narcissists who don’t really notice anything going on anyway.

  59. None

    Good idea (and I say this as the only girl in my school who ever got caned, although the headmaster could only cope with one instead of the customary three whacks on the hand)
    Better: make all corporal punishment public, to protect against sadism.
    Better still: demand parents administer corporal punishment in public; if they refuse, expel the kid and the parents from the school community. (Of course sensible parents will discipline their kids before it ever gets to this so there will be no loss to the school community there).

    But if the sodomy senator’s marriage bill gets up, eventually no one will know who their parents are any more anyway and both parents and teachers can just root the kids, literally.

    Preparing of anal sex anyone? Enema or no?

  60. A Lurker

    Back in the good old days, parents would actually discipline and socialize their kids so the teachers didn’t have to as much as today.

    +1

    Personally I think corporal punishment should be reintroduced – it should be short and sharp, and administered by someone other than the teacher involved (who might use the discipline inappropriately due to frustration with the misbehaving child). However, if parents actually disciplined their children, taught them manners, and correct social behaviour, then half the problems we hear and see at schools simply would not exist.

    Out of control children at school almost always points to poor parenting at home – also I am of the politically incorrect view that children with diagnosed antisocial behaviours like some in the autism spectrum should be removed from regular schools, and instead educated at special schools where their specific needs can be properly met by trained teachers, this will also allow regular classes in regular schools to be less disrupted and the children have a better learning environment.

  61. Hendrix

    Of course this appears in the papers as “top Abbott adviser backs corporal punishment”.

  62. 1735099

    Interesting discussion.
    In grade six (1958) my dad was the principal of a small bush school and also my teacher.
    He caught me and two others smoking behind the boys’ dunny.
    I got four cuts – the others got two.
    When I got home I complained bitterly.
    My dad’s logic was that the others would have got into trouble a second time with their parents when they heard about it. He got it over in one with me.
    I still think it wasn’t fair.
    As to corporal punishment – it never worked, and I had ten years as a principal when it was legal.
    For many kids it was a badge of honour, and was counter productive.
    If the teachers were doing a good job and engaging the kids it was rarely necessary.
    In today’s world, it is an anachronism.
    The discussion is about nostalgia, not education.

  63. calli

    Heheh…watching Trioli and co discussing corporal punishment. “I got the strap a couple of times and look at me now, the mess that I am”. Case closed.

    Listening to Newcastle’s local FM station last week, the subject of corporal punishment came up. The announcers introduced the subject as “should capital punishment be reintroduced into schools?” and invited callers to give their opinions. I felt they were being a bit harsh, but some students really are beyond the pale.

  64. manalive

    Hmmm, sadism, sodomy, anal and enema all in a nine-line post.
    Maybe the subconscious at work?… Who knows.

  65. Aus_Autarch

    It is *deeply* unlikely that corporal punishment (CP) could be re-established in Australian schools without a prior massive social disruption, on the order of an existential war or massive social collapse. The problem with the withdrawal of CP was not that it was/is no longer available, but that no *meaningful* replacement was made, and that actual educational attainment/progress is no longer valued by the schooling system.

    Current disciplinary methods available to teachers include the following:
    * “Counselling”/ Verbal remonstrations
    * Communicating with the student’s parents/authority figures (in person or writing)
    * Short detentions (on the order of 30 minutes or less), during lunches or very short outside of hors (15 minutes or less)
    * Assignment of additional work tasks
    * Withdrawal of rewards

    Higher in-school Authorities have the following available
    * Refusal of access to special programs (excursions, etc)
    * Longer outside of hours detentions
    * Short Suspensions (1-2 days)

    The Principals of a school have the following available
    * Longer Suspensions (>=10 days)
    * Expulsion, if and only if the student has been suspended for longer than 15 days total previously
    * Referral to external authorities (police, etc).

    I think it should be obvious to most thinking Cats that this suite of sanctions is adequate in the case of well-socialised, well-parented students. The problem is that in recent memory, CP was an option. It has been removed (with some justification based on the comments above!), but it was not replaced.

    A major part of the discipline package was taken away, with nothing returned. Furthermore, CP is still a part of some students’ lives, either in their parents (and their) cultural mindspace or in their current lives (applied by relatives). Further to this, as discussed by Gatto and his ilk above, modern educationalists have forsworn actual success in schools, by building in the concept of automatic/social promotion – the process by which a student goes up a year level every year, without reference to the mastery (or otherwise) of the prescribed content and skill mastery.

    This toxic combination results in adolescents with minimal (if any) ability to access the educational content presented at any year level in an environment where they recognise no meaningful sanctions to misbehaviour.

    The Teachers who work in this environment are not to blame for it; they have precisely zero (direct) influence over the conditions in which they work. The bureaucrats of education departments, the politicisation of education (ref. “Education” departments, ministries, unions etc), and Educational utopians (Ideologues and University education departments, professionals and consultants) are solely to blame for this situation, and must be held to account.

  66. Harold

    I agree that the cane was usually preferable to detention or other punishment – painful and somewhat humiliating but over and done with quickly.
    In my experience the best teachers I had were respected by the class without having to resort to the cane.
    Conversely those who needed to use the cane to enforce their authority were generally not the best teachers.
    Overall I was caned a few times throughout my schooling and while I don’t think it had any marked effect on me, except perhaps to diminish my respect for teachers, I don’t think it was particularly helpful for either party.

  67. dianeh

    I cant agree. The boys in my primary school were often getting caned by the nuns. The effect was not always what was desired. One boy in particular liked to smile and strut his stuff after getting the cane. He said it hurt like hell but he was never going to show it. Most of the other ‘naughty’ boys followed suit.

    But there was e boy that was often picked on by the teachers over the years. He was a bit slow and didnt answer correctly or quickly. He was not disobedient. I used to feel sorry for him, so even at a young age I felt he was treated unfairly. I am pretty confident that now he would be diagnosed with autism. As a 50 year old, he still is unable to socialise properly.

    Corporal punishment does not work on kids on the spectrum. Most of the ‘traditional’ punishments such as detention dont work either. My son is quite prepared to give up half his lunch time in exchange for not doing his work. He thinks he wins. And I know he is not alone in that. Belting him with a cane will only encourage him to use violence himself, or it may result in him withdrawing socially, or to stop participating in class.

    Corporal punishment used on my child would be child abuse and would cause him far more harm than good. For the record I believe in smacking. I have found though a very small smack on the bum worked on my daughter, but not on my son. And smacking a bit harder didnt work either.

    I can see that corporal punishment would benefit some kids. My problem is that most teachers do not have the nouse to know when corporal punishment will do more harm than good. It could quickly undo years of work and development of those kids whose brains are wired differently. Remember our kids are in mainstream schools, most are not hidden away in special schools.

  68. .

    Of course it’s scary stuff. They are critiquing John Dewey. Now THAT is scary(ier).

    Wait till you get to the part where they critique Bloom’s taxonomy.

  69. nerblnob

    On the first stroke he pulled his hand away, and the strap followed through and got me in the nuts.

    Now that made me laugh. We used to try to do that. You got an extra cut for insolence, but it was worth it.

    I agree with a couple above:
    Suspension = computer game leave.
    Making both victim and attacker take equal blame and apologise in front of school = made my son distrustful of mealy-mouthed do-gooders forever.

  70. Johno

    The Left will love this. Nothing screams ‘out of touch old fuddiduddy’ than supporting corporeal punishment. He has made it so much easier for the Left to discredit the review he is co-chairing.

    The truth is, Donnely isn’t all that bright. Most of his stuff that I have read is of poor quality and unconvincing, despite my natural sympathy for his position.

    We need a better champion if we are to dislodge the Left from its postion of power to brainwash our children.

  71. Toiling mass

    A lefty teacher would not cane bad students.

    They would cane every other student for being somehow actually responsible. The miscreant would be given a free-trade organic hemp lolly.

  72. Beertruk

    Gab
    #1383076, posted on July 15, 2014 at 11:11 pm
    Back in the good old days, parents would actually discipline and socialize their kids so the teachers didn’t have to as much as today.

    I was generally pretty well behaved at school, but on the odd occasion I did get the cane. I do remember the first time telling my Old Man (who was a Policeman at the time), which was a tactical error on my part because it resulted in another flogging for the same ‘alleged’ crime from him. That was the first and last time telling Dad that I got the cane at school because there was no point in being punished for the same crime twice. On the subject of suspensions at school. My two nephews got suspended at various times, but they just treated it as a holiday.

  73. .

    Toiling mass
    #1383276, posted on July 16, 2014 at 8:01 am
    A lefty teacher would not cane bad students.

    They would cane every other student for being somehow actually responsible. The miscreant would be given a free-trade organic hemp lolly.

    By christ you’re an idiot. Do you mean fair trade, or do you think impoverishing a country’s consumers and workers with tariffs is a good idea? Who do you work for? The sugar lobby?

  74. .

    The truth is, Donnely isn’t all that bright. Most of his stuff that I have read is of poor quality and unconvincing, despite my natural sympathy for his position.

    Correct. Try Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto.

  75. Token

    The truth is, Donnely isn’t all that bright

    I think you guys underestimate the approach of journalists in sneaking in their gotchas in seemingly reasonably sounding ways.

    Adam Carolla & Mark Cuban discussed recently how they sit down for 30 min interviews with “friendly” journalists and get surprised when a joke or point which is explored for the sake of discussing the theory is taken out of context.

    This seems to be the case for Donnelly who doesn’t realise that all journo’s want to take down anyone who has any relationship with this federal government.

  76. Aussiepundit

    Time out of school is a punishment? You imbecile

    The point is not to punish, but to maintain order (you imbecile). Why keep a troublemaker in the system where they can continue to make trouble?

  77. Toiling Mass

    Woops. Fair trade. Fair trade.

    Damned iPhone. The auto correct is so damn fiddley, and more than a little presumptuous with the word changes.

  78. Diogenes

    Try Ivan Illich, Sir Ken Robinson and John Taylor Gatto

    Q.What do these2 of gents (the 1st 2) have in common ?
    A. They have not spent one day as teacher in a real school, let alone a low SES school and lets face it that is where most problems occur.

    Gattos wiki entry does not state in which kinds of schools he taught that makes a huge difference. One of my colleagues got a transfer to a higher SES school a mere 20 minutes away. He spends 90% teaching – 10% in admin & classroom management, at my school the percentagess are about 50-50.

    But back to Robinson – his word is holy writ in many primary schools – ever wondered why kids are spending so much time doing “projects” in primary school?

    Also this nonsense is why classroom management is badly covered in teacher training – interesting lesson = engaged child = no problem. This ignores the fact that little Johhny got into my class as his 8th/10 option, or little Mary’s mum chose Computing for her (Mary would rather be doing Child studies) . It ignores Billy has a contract with a football club, that means he has to stay at school to finish year 12 – but he has to travel 2 hours each way 3nights a week for a 3 hour training session, and is tired, and cranky, and always behind in his work, it ignores the fact that a normally really good, polite child can have an off day and ruin a class – eg “mums just been diagnosed with cancer” , or the child who lives with his dad in a rehab clinic, mum last heard of working down the Cross to get her fix, or the child who use the f & c words as punctuation (and when I ring home I am not surprised)., it ignores the fat that kids got little sleep for a week because of police operations nearby (after the riots in SW Sydney 4 years ago this happened)

    The maturity of a child (especially the boys) plays a huge part – most of the “troublemakers” are the youngest in their year group – but because childcare is so expensive, and the kids are a little rambunctious at home, mum packs them to off to school as quick as she can, even when they are not ready , and the feminisation of primary school means these kids are behind from day 1 and just fall further and further behind.

    Now as to the comment about shit teachers lets conduct 2 thought experiments …
    You hate reality TV with a passion and would not normally watch it. You are then then strapped to bed & using those Clockwork Orange eye things forced to watch & listen to, say, “The Voice”, and asked to rate the singers. Now lets say you have daughter who loves the Voice, she watches it on live TV, then catchup and then downloads all the tracks of iTunes, buys the magazine etc etc. You are both asked to rate the singers. How many singers do you think you would rate as excellent vs your daughter ? How many would you even remember vs your daughter?

    You are now the producer of the Voice. Now lets further assume 30 Cat regulars with different tastes in music eg pop, C&W, classical, Rock n’roll, crooners- anything but rap) are strapped to beds as above and forced to listen to the singer sing only (so they are not swayed by looks, backstory, dress etc) and they as a group will make the final decision as to who goes on TV – the sponsors only want rappers – how many would the Cat regulars pick ?

    Oh in all that. We should be allowed to use the cane, a short sharp lesson, rather the long drawn out levels system/suspension system, may quickly turn a few around.

  79. Fat Tony

    Funny how people talk about corporal punishment for school kids – but not for criminals.
    How about an earnest discussion on giving the scum that regularly front up to the Courts for violence etc a good flogging. How many times do we hear about “repeat offenders”?
    Juvenile offenders could be included in this.

    Then, a discussion may be had on the merits of such for school kids who, in all probability, have just upset some moronic school teacher.

  80. Mr Rusty

    I didn’t know corporal punishment had even been dumped. I heard kids today were caned all the time at school…

    Thankyou, I’m here all day.

    But seriously, I can’t think of anything more scary than re-introducing corporal punishment at a time like this. Leftard teachers wouldn’t be caning miscreants and sloths they would be thrashing the crap out of any kid who dared to question Gaia and the Great Global Warming Swindle, a bright Year 12 quoting Hayek or Friedman would receive 30 lashes and failure to rote learn The Communist Manifesto a nice round 50. Richer kids who refused to hand over their pocket money to the Bullies Union and Compassion Club would be strung up and beaten under the BER COLA. The most serious punishments would be administered before the annual school interpretive dance re-enactment of Invasion Day when parents known to vote for any party other than GreenLabor would be tied to the school solar panels and flayed.

    I’m surprised the Teachers Union isn’t cheering Donnelly on.

  81. .

    Toiling Mass
    #1383325, posted on July 16, 2014 at 9:29 am
    Woops. Fair trade. Fair trade.

    Damned iPhone. The auto correct is so damn fiddley, and more than a little presumptuous with the word changes.

    I was more than a bit unreasonable.

  82. .

    Gattos wiki entry does not state in which kinds of schools he taught that makes a huge difference.

    Read or watch some of his stuff. He’s been at poor Catholic (‘parochial’) schools.

    The maturity of a child (especially the boys) plays a huge part – most of the “troublemakers” are the youngest in their year group

    You need to pay more attention to Gatto and Robinson.

    They think the idea of categorising kids by age is utterly stupid.

  83. cohenite

    My friend is a maths teacher; the current topic is whether the pupils can be punished by having their mobiles confiscated during the period. The horse of corporal punished has long bolted from the stable of options in Australian schools.

    I wonder what happens in the Madrasas?

  84. James in Melbourne

    I am old enough to have had “the cuts,” several times. It goes without saying that it did not affect me, in fact it elevated my status at my high school quite significantly. Ten minutes after the pain you are basking in your new status. But I know that you can’t talk that way anymore.

    My kids go to private schools now – thanks to how Numbers’ kind have white-anted, hollowed-out and utterly destroyed the public system through their commitment to unceasing leftist indoctrination – and I have of course accepted that enlightened 21st Century teaching has foresworn corporal punishment forever.

    I know that my kids’ schools’ full-on commitment to constantly re-stated standards and expectations, and the consequences of failure to meet these standards and expectations, is a huge success. The kids understand the framework of expectations, and the consequences. Punishment exists, but it is no longer corporal. OK, we move on.

    My sole lament over Donnelly’ remarks is how by nightfall, because he is an Abbott appointee, they will have morphed by ALPBC/Fauxfacts holy writ into Abbott’s own words, and a direct Prime Ministerial demand that schools cane kids.

  85. .

    This makes a mockery of the education system as it is, particularly overused and ill conceived standardised testing and the marginalisation of trades and creative industry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U&feature=kp

    RSA Animate – Changing Education Paradigms, Sir Ken Robinson.

  86. rebel with cause

    WTF is wrong with Donnelly? The problem we have now is parents that think it is totally acceptable for their kids to be out-of-control and disruptive. The sort of parents that will get stuck into a teacher if they dare give their nasty little brat a detention. A teacher giving that sort of kid, with those sort of parents a smack would be subject to far more trouble than you can imagine.

    It’s the parents that are the problem. Beating kids won’t fix that.

  87. .

    Well anyway – Sir Ken reckons we ought to go the exact opposite way from standardised testing and curricula – a complete opposite of the Gillardian educational policy which will end in lower outcomes as teachers spend more time doing useless paperwork.

    The benefits of discovery learning etc will be completely lost.

  88. Eddystone

    Obviously Ritalin and Endep are much more effective than corporal punishment. /sarc

    F**k me, no one blinks an eye that half our kids are doped up with medication of unknown efficacy for disorders that never existed a generation ago, but mention corporal punishment and the world is about to end.

  89. cohenite

    It’s the parents that are the problem. Beating kids won’t fix that.

    Correct. The parents should be given a swift clip over the ears or a kick up the arse on a regular basis.

  90. .

    It’s the parents that are the problem. Beating kids won’t fix that.

    Beat the parents?

  91. .

    Eddy – Sir Ken calls this a “false epidemic”. ADHD exists but the rate of medication is a joke (in the US at least).

    I’ve trained kids on ritalin. They have no soul on that stuff. Sure, they’re obedient, but where’s the passion? Great if you want to create an army of train conductors.

  92. Aussiepundit

    Right.
    Let’s force children to go to school whether they want to or not – and then deliver summary justice at the whim of people with no legal training, and with no right of appeal.
    This kind of shit is why schools got such a bad name mid-century. The reaction to the cruel and brutal regimes of early schools created the fertile ground for all the dumb ideas you see in education today.

  93. Eddystone

    ADHD exists

    I have my doubts.

    It used to be called “bad behaviour”, and the cure was imposed discipline, not necessarily harsh or physical discipline, but fairly unyielding nonetheless.

    Seeing a young mother helplessly trailing her screaming, out of control toddler around the supermarket, fruitlessly telling him to “stop pushing the boundaries”, really crystallised it for me.

    He needed a smack, a good cry and a sleep, that’s all. But I bet he is on Ritallin today.

  94. Aussiepundit

    Corporal punishment in schools isn’t just a bad idea. It’s a terrible idea.
    It will not, and does not, work as intended.
    It is ripe for abuse. It would be abused, as it always was in the past.

    But if you’re going to have corporal punishment, at least make school non-compulsory.

  95. .

    Seeing a young mother helplessly trailing her screaming, out of control toddler around the supermarket, fruitlessly telling him to “stop pushing the boundaries”, really crystallised it for me.

    There is no way he actually understands that statement.

    Robinson notes that ADHD has risen in the US in parallel with the increase in standardised testing.

    School is so boring it makes kids bad and there is no stern discipline. Drugging kids to learn a standardised curricula written by a politician like Obama or Gillard.

    You have to be fucking kidding me this is an “education”.

  96. Senile Old Guy

    Seeing a young mother helplessly trailing her screaming, out of control toddler around the supermarket, fruitlessly telling him to “stop pushing the boundaries”, really crystallised it for me.

    He needed a smack, a good cry and a sleep, that’s all. But I bet he is on Ritallin today.

    I see. So if an employee is not working properly, it’s okay to belt them.

    It’s assault and it is illegal if one adult does it to another. I fail to see why it is suddenly reasonable when the one being belted is smaller than the other and (usually) weaker.

    Kids have tantrums because they have learned that it works. Parents who don’t give in to tantrums generally find that kids don’t have tantrums.

  97. .

    If you homeschool you can have all the discipline you desire.

    Very little of it will probably be necessary though.

    How much discipline is used at Montessori schools?

    (I’ve laid off Montessori lately – I’ve been a straight up jerk about it before).

  98. F**k me, no one blinks an eye that half our kids are doped up with medication of unknown efficacy for disorders that never existed a generation ago, but mention corporal punishment and the world is about to end.

    Chemical restraint.

    The thing that gets me are the ads that tell you not to let your teenager drink Alcohol due to Awful Things Happening To Their Growing Brain, whereas your quack can have them doped up in minutes, with nary a thought for the long-term unknown effects of these drugs on their growing brain.

  99. If you homeschool you can have all the discipline you desire.

    Very little of it will probably be necessary though.

    Mmmm, I know plenty of naughty homeschooled kids. All Catholics, of course.

    But you’re right.

  100. rebel with cause

    A lot of the behavioural issues you see today are a result of kids not getting enough sleep. Parents don’t send their kids to bed early enough and the kids have rooms full of gadgets and games to play all night. Tired, grumpy kids behave badly.

  101. There is an argument for the physical disciplining of boys, but not girls.

    Boys seem to be able to be more philosophical about physical punishment – I know that’s a generalisation, but I’ve seen it work better with them than with girls.

    Teaching girls to be hit because it’s good for them is of questionable value.

    There are also many other ways to discipline children, such as removal of privileges, treats, etc. But when you have a child who has melted down and is out of control for no good reason except temper – and it does happen, despite every parent’s best efforts, and it is usually a personality/boundary-pushing issue with the child, rather than a failing on the parents’ part! – you need pretty firm measures.

    How firm, is up to the parent and the judicious use of reason.

  102. A lot of the behavioural issues you see today are a result of kids not getting enough sleep. Parents don’t send their kids to bed early enough and the kids have rooms full of gadgets and games to play all night. Tired, grumpy kids behave badly.

    Yes.

    Kids with overstimulated brain reward centres also behave badly.

    Also kids who don’t have boundaries, or never hear the world ‘No’.

    Micromanaged, overscheduled kids also behave badly when they get the chance.

    Under-exercised kids also behave badly – it really helps to let them wear themselves out physically in happy and unscheduled play, preferably out of doors.

  103. .

    The thing that gets me are the ads that tell you not to let your teenager drink Alcohol due to Awful Things Happening To Their Growing Brain, whereas your quack can have them doped up in minutes, with nary a thought for the long-term unknown effects of these drugs on their growing brain.

    This would be funny, but it happens to real people.

    Stuff like this is why authority is not respected.

  104. Gab

    Under-exercised kids also behave badly – it really helps to let them wear themselves out physically in happy and unscheduled play, preferably out of doors.

    Is that even allowed at schools these days?

  105. .

    Philippa is saying stuff congruent to Sir Ken.

    Yet others criticise Sir Ken because he’s “not a real teacher”.

    Neither was Gillard – yet we’ve all copped her national curricula as though she was an Antipodean Aristotle. More fool us.

  106. Driftforge

    It will not, and does not, work as intended.

    Going off the anecdotal evidence here, it seems to work as intended for some and not for others. Best question then becomes in what circumstances (read – for people of what heritage) does it work as intended?

    It is ripe for abuse. It would be abused, as it always was in the past.

    Yes, and like most things that were ‘abused’ in edge cases, we have now gone down the path where the benefit that was generated by correct application is lost because we are so concerned about the edge cases.

  107. Leigh Lowe

    Bring back corporal punishment?
    Ooooohhh … yes please, Matron.
    (I’ve been very, very naughty and must be punished)

  108. dianeh

    Eddystone

    Sometimes a smack works but probably not on an out of control toddler.

    Over the years I was offered plenty of advice on how to stop my boy from having meltdowns in the supermarket. The worst was a man that followed us around and three times told me to smack him. My husband was going to smack the man. I on the other hand, thanked him for the advice and told him it had never occurred to me that I was allowed to smack my own child.

    My son has sensory issues and anxiety, and the supermarket was a terrible place for him. He was scared of going in there, and we think that the ‘busy’ shelves and all the people were the reason. It could have been the bright lights, or it may have been because he didnt know his way around. He was unable to focus on things and felt lost, even when I was carrying him. To get over it, I started taking him in the supermarket for very short visits, first only to buy 1 carton of milk. Built it up over time, and as well, taught him his way around the local supermarket. All went well until we would go on holidays to a new supermarket, and then all hell would break loose. Last holidays, we were in a new Woollies, and he was a little anxious but managed to control himself. He is 8.

  109. .

    Leigh

    Do you moonlight as a pennypinching small grocer?

  110. Andrew

    I am wondering what the National Curriculum review will be like with Donnelly in charge of that. :p

  111. Leigh Lowe

    Leigh

    Do you moonlight as a pennypinching small grocer?

    Nah-nah-nah-now whatever ga-ga-ga-gave you that idea da-da-da-dot?

  112. Andrew

    Hopefully he abolishes it.

    He would like to do that but Pyne supports a national curriculum.

  113. Dr Faustus

    Corporal punishment had its place as a sharp, summary object lesson to smarten up the wayward (but not, I think, the defective, or stupid). Problem is, what passed for acceptable corporal punishment in, say, the 1960′s would now be classified as victimisation and serious assault – with the exciting world of litigation and compensation claims that would inevitably follow.

    Donnelly’s PE teacher would be in jail and his school an ATM for aggrieved parents of abused yoof who would have a permanent excuse for their subsequent bad behaviour: “Your Honour, I turned to mugging little old ladies and dealing ice because I was traumatised by my teacher’s violence…”

  114. The only ever seem to see the last punch when its thrown by the long suffering victim.

    No, don’t ever give them that excuse. There is something fundamentally wrong with any teacher that blames the victim.

    Justice is a bully getting his/her comeuppance. Every instance makes me smile, yet every victim copped it for the crime of retaliation self-defence.

    Often the bullies are stupid, like the one who wore glasses while picking on my brother. That did not end well for the bully. Or the idiot who systematically picked on a stutterer and always ended up with his arm forcefully shoved up his back. Dunno about three that picked on the taekwondo blackbelt but I don’t imagine that ended well for them either. The latter two were threatened with expulsion for not tolerating systematic attacks on them. You can’t shoot a guy for punching you, but come at me with a knife and your fair game.

  115. Is that even allowed at schools these days?

    Don’t be ridiculous, Gab, of course not. Things could happen, like “fun”.

  116. Driftforge

    The only ever seem to see the last punch when its thrown by the long suffering victim.

    Must have been to different schools. I’ve seen (and had related to me) numerous occasions where the teacher/s have noted a bully getting their just deserts and ‘seen nothing’.

    Also seen some cases where the kid who delivered the comeuppance not being sufficiently self aware to play along with the general ‘didn’t see anything / didn’t do anything’ required for the formalities and dob themselves in.

  117. .

    The only ever seem to see the last punch when its thrown by the long suffering victim.

    This sounds like a public school to boot.

  118. That Atkinson skit waas one of my faves back in the day… came out when I was at school, I believe.

    I never had the cane – was getting phased out when I went through. My older siblings all copped it though.

    I think our school system is appalling as it is – I can’t think of why anybody would consider it a good idea to allow them to teach your kids, let alone hit them. Think of some of the leftard teachers we’ve had in this group… would you really allow these deadbeats to whack kids? They’d probably beat them for “climate denial”. LOL

    I favour IT’s suggestion of corporal punishment for teachers, however.

  119. The only ever seem to see the last punch when its thrown by the long suffering victim.

    That too. This was always the case with non-coporal punishment from my memory, too – the cane just adds the teachers to the list of bullies attacking some poor nerd.

  120. Peter

    Most of the objections that I’m seeing to CP are based on the imperfections and failings of the system, without paying due deference to the fact that ALL systems have such failings.

    The question should rather be, which imperfect strategy from among many, when applied to the best of our ability, will produce the best results.

    AS for “violence” in and of itself…. I don’t believe that we are benefiting as a society by engaging in futile attempts to eliminate violence. I suggest that it is inherent to the human species and that we will get better results by teaching our children how to use it appropriately.

    Think of in the context of self-defence. There is a right way to be violent and a wrong way. A right time and a wrong time. I suspect that in no longer insisting that our boys engage in body-contact sports as a matter of course, we are losing the opportunity to teach them to give and take hard knocks without resentment, and to leave that on the sports field.

    It’s a digression, but one that you might want to think about.

  121. Eddystone

    dianeh
    #1383423, posted on July 16, 2014 at 11:06 am

    dianeh, the toddler I mentioned wasn’t anxious, he was out of control because he had not been effectively taught how to behave, IMO.

    The circumstances I saw, a smack would have been the appropriate circuit breaker, but his poor mum didn’t seem to have that option in her strategies for teaching him.

  122. rebel with cause

    Even private schools aren’t immune. You’ll see the same oversized Fischer Price play equipment, the same rules on physical play and the same corresponding issues with bullying and class room discipline.

    Let kids actually play at lunchtime and you’ll find that bullying problems go away, and kids burn up enough energy at lunchtime that even boisterous boys can concentrate.

    It’s not rocket science, yet we’ve managed to stuff up schooling completely within one generation.

  123. alexis

    What a pointless debate. There is no exemption in criminal law for beatings at school. You might as well campaign to allow rape in marriage again. Even assault with all parties’ consent has been deemed unlawful at times.

    My kids go to a school run by a certain religious minority, the parents are generally gainfully employed and devoid of criminal records…no more than the usual minor teenage delinquency happening…that’s the secret, not beatings.

    Even if beatings were associated with better behaviour in the past, I doubt they were causative. The conduct of children was potentially better due to better social structures and the relative lack of a welfare state structure.

  124. alexis

    Even private schools aren’t immune. You’ll see the same oversized Fischer Price play equipment, the same rules on physical play and the same corresponding issues with bullying and class room discipline.

    Let kids actually play at lunchtime and you’ll find that bullying problems go away, and kids burn up enough energy at lunchtime that even boisterous boys can concentrate.

    The second paragraph is true but are you speaking from experience? Because my kids are at a private school and do nothing but play footy and soccer every minute they are out of class (unless they prefer to do chess club or whatever). And they do a significant amount of sport in class hours too.

  125. .

    alexis
    #1383545, posted on July 16, 2014 at 1:16 pm
    What a pointless debate. There is no exemption in criminal law for beatings at school. You might as well campaign to allow rape in marriage again.

    Are you serious? Corporal punishment (often for violence) is the same as rape?

  126. Eddystone

    Senile Old Guy
    #1383390, posted on July 16, 2014 at 10:48 am

    I see. So if an employee is not working properly, it’s okay to belt them.

    It’s assault and it is illegal if one adult does it to another. I fail to see why it is suddenly reasonable when the one being belted is smaller than the other and (usually) weaker.

    Kids have tantrums because they have learned that it works. Parents who don’t give in to tantrums generally find that kids don’t have tantrums.

    Perhaps you need a belt to aid your comprehension.

    This toddler was not an employee, I think he was too young. Maybe the labour laws allow two year olds to be employed where you live?

    Nor did he appear to be having a tantrum, he was just a very naughty boy

    FYI, our son had tantrums at that age, they didn’t “work” for him, neither did he get smacked for them. They appeared to be emotional storms beyond his control.

  127. .

    alexis is right though. parents are the key.

  128. Senile Old Guy

    Perhaps you need a belt to aid your comprehension.

    I’ll simplify.

    Adult belts adult = assault.

    Why is adult belts child different?

  129. Baldrick

    School punishment … what a joke. Even picking up papers in the quadrangle these days can only be performed using the appropriate equipment, ie: Fluor vest, disposable gloves, hand sanitiser, steel-capped boots and protective glasses.

  130. alexis

    This toddler was not an employee, I think he was too young. Maybe the labour laws allow two year olds to be employed where you live?

    I don’t understand that. It’s more acceptable to assault a baby than an adult?

    Are you serious? Corporal punishment (often for violence) is the same as rape?

    Maximum sentence for GBH = 10 years, maximum for rape = 25, so I guess the implication is that rape is worse, but the former is still pretty serious.
    Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear though, my point was that in the 1950s it was generally accepted that in a school setting, physical assault of a child was acceptable, and it was also law in some jurisdictions that rape could not take place by definition in a domestic setting. To move back to a situation in which people by reason of age, powerlessness and location are able to be assaulted is in my view analogous to allowing men (or women) to rape their spouses because of the domestic setting.

    Given how our society functions now though it’s pretty academic anyway. Anyone who caned a child would probably be machine-gunned or beheaded by the family.

  131. rebel with cause

    Alexis – it’s a matter of degrees. If you’ve found a school that does without a ‘bullying policy’, has a playground that actually looks fun (i.e. encourages kids to learn about risk and reward by allowing them to climb up high, jump down etc) instead of being built with safety first in mind, and teachers that are willing to turn a blind eye to some harmless wrestling then you have a gem indeed.

  132. alexis

    Alexis – it’s a matter of degrees. If you’ve found a school that does without a ‘bullying policy’, has a playground that actually looks fun (i.e. encourages kids to learn about risk and reward by allowing them to climb up high, jump down etc) instead of being built with safety first in mind, and teachers that are willing to turn a blind eye to some harmless wrestling then you have a gem indeed.

    Well not quite, they do sport and break their arms as occasionally happens in the schoolyard, but they aren’t allowed to bully anyone. Libertarian philosophy in action. But it’s not about an “anti-bullying” policy, it’s about a school philosophy that encourages students from the beginning to care for and respect each other. And yes, taking out their aggression on the field.

    Actually thinking back I remember all ball sports were banned for a week due to rough play or girls being whacked in the head by footies or something but the school community was pretty irate about that little experiment.

  133. It’s not the striking; it’s the process.

    There is a world of difference between

    a) OTT beltings with a strap, delivered arbitrarily by an angry, out of control parent, and

    b) a slap on the back of the legs delivered by an in-control parent after a series of warnings and the use of other measures before this becomes necessary.

    I have a psychiatrist friend (with badly behaved children, by the way) who is firmly against any kind of physical discipline, because she says she has seen too many people in prison who were belted as children.

    She is half-right – badly administered physical discipline is damaging. But properly administered physical discipline can be a life-saver.

  134. alexis

    a) OTT beltings with a strap, delivered arbitrarily by an angry, out of control parent, and

    b) a slap on the back of the legs delivered by an in-control parent after a series of warnings and the use of other measures before this becomes necessary.

    I have a psychiatrist friend (with badly behaved children, by the way) who is firmly against any kind of physical discipline, because she says she has seen too many people in prison who were belted as children.

    She is half-right – badly administered physical discipline is damaging. But properly administered physical discipline can be a life-saver.

    And luckily such a high proportion of the population are sensible enough to know what level of physical discipline is reasonable and are disciplined enough themselves to be able to stop…
    Although from what I see in public some of the verbal assaults, and I mean horrible, abusive behaviour, is probably far more damaging than a smack.

  135. Angus Black

    Far, far better corporal punishment than drugging the poor devils into insensibility with Ritalin and so on.

    I feel so desperately sorry for the boys whose normality has somehow been routinely medicalised and “treated” with psychotropic drugs! What hope for their future?

  136. Aussiepundit

    This has got nothing to do with corporal punishment by parents. I’m in favour of smacking for very young children.
    Your teachers are not your parents. Technically, in theory, they are temporary ‘legal guardians’ but that’s just a legal fiction to stop the system grinding to a halt. They have limited guardianship responsibilities but are not really parent substitutes in many senses. This should be an extremely obvious point.

    Sure, people can comment all day that a good whack across the knuckles “made me the man I am today”, but for every story of the system working as intended, there are stories of persecution, misapplication of justice, bullying, sadism, and plain old unfairness.

    Smacking your toddler on the bottom is not the same thing as giving every teacher in the land the power to cane your teenage son, if it pleases them. That’s just so wrong it delves new depths of wrongness.

  137. Diogenes

    You need to pay more attention to Gatto and Robinson.
    They think the idea of categorising kids by age is utterly stupid.

    You missed the thrust of that observation – kids are being sent to school before they are ready was the point I was making – I did not say the current starting age is appropriate, and legally you can get into trouble if you do not start the child by the time the government says, even if mum feels her child is not ready(and willing to admit it).

    The sleep thing is vital. There has been a trend for schools to start earlier and earlier – mine starts 8:15, the next to the north @ 8:00 , two schools north 7:45, the next to the south at 9:00. This is wholly and soley because of the local bus company & the availability of school busses, not because of the needs of staff or students. There is plenty of evidence that for our older years (10-12) we should be starting them around 11am – finishing @5:00 instead of 3:pm. Years 7-9 start at current times. This would make it make it easier to schedule staff & practical rooms, and personally I would not complain(I am usually here till 5 anyway)

    Anyhoo back to the matter at hand….
    looking at the research of Piaget & Vygostky, that has been validated by hundreds of studies it is clear children have different thought processes at different ages. I can reason with a 16yo, and they will understand that an action has a consequence – try doing that with a 5yo now Tarquin , sit on the the naughty chair (oops that damages a child as well according to something published on the weekend) and think about what you have done- I guarantee little Tarquin will sit there thing how unfair it is he cannot do what he wants instead of contemplating his sins.

    Aussiepundit – not every teacher should be given the power to cane. It should be reserved for Senior Exec (DP & Principal) so a teacher would have to be able to justify their request and it is filtered. Nobody is advocating wholesale beatings.

  138. A Lurker

    Aussiepundit – not every teacher should be given the power to cane. It should be reserved for Senior Exec (DP & Principal) so a teacher would have to be able to justify their request and it is filtered. Nobody is advocating wholesale beatings.

    Yes – a teacher could go over the top due to frustration/anger.
    A Deputy/Principal would have the necessary separation from the incident to make a dispassionate call and a quick action.

    I’ve just come out of almost ten years working in an allied industry to education, and believe me in my line of work I’ve seen a lot of little savages. I’ve seen tiny children expressing the sort of language that would make the most hardened Cat poster blush. I’ve seen primary school aged children treat with utter disrespect adults and elders – and I’ve seen every behaviour under the sun.

    All I know is that something needs to be done about discipline, about bringing respect to elders, instilling (un)common courtesy, and teaching children self-respect – because what exists now in many schools is getting close to what was described in ‘Lord of the Flies’.

  139. Aussiepundit

    what exists now in many schools is getting close to what was described in ‘Lord of the Flies’.

    that’s been the case for a long time.
    Educationalists pontificate about learning outcomes and tweaking variables like curricula and teacher ratios, without looking at the elephant in the room. No learning occurs in a classroom where the students are allowed to run amok. And there are plenty of those classrooms in Australia.

    But giving teachers the power to inflict pain to restore order is not the answer. The current system is a backlash against the wrongs of that system.

    The basic problem is that society wants the children in class, no matter what. Regardless of whether they want to be there; regardless of whether they are a danger to other students or to teachers. Remove the ‘educate at any cost’ mentality and we’ll take a big step forward.

  140. .

    You missed the thrust of that observation – kids are being sent to school before they are ready was the point I was making – I did not say the current starting age is appropriate, and legally you can get into trouble if you do not start the child by the time the government says, even if mum feels her child is not ready(and willing to admit it).

    This is a wholly stupid law.

  141. Eddystone

    Senile Old Guy
    #1383570, posted on July 16, 2014 at 1:28 pm

    Why is adult belts child different?

    Leaving aside your emotive use of the term “belt” instead of “smack”, young children are not able to understand logic in the way that an adult can. A smack administered by a controlled adult provides instant feedback that the child’s behaviour is not acceptable.

  142. Dagney J. Taggart

    I experienced the caned at least once during primary school. The cane at my (government) primary school was given after the weekly assembly on the stage, in front of everyone. It was a matter of pride that one didn’t flinch or cry. It was seen as a rite of passage amongst the boys….

  143. Delta A

    Back in the good old days, parents would actually discipline and socialize their kids so the teachers didn’t have to as much as today. Gab at 11.11am.

    Also, in the good old days, parents raised children together. And in general, children came to school with some semblance of respect for (maybe even fear of) authority.

    Nowadays, many children have no experience of authority in their home, growing up without a reliable/consistent male role-model and without firm guidelines for interaction with their peer group or with teachers. Too often this translates to behaviourally and/or socially challenged (how I hate that PC term) students who know only disruptive behaviour as a means of gaining the attention that all children need.

  144. Delta A

    Bring back corporal punishment in schools?

    Imo, the short answer is yes, but under strict conditions. Corporal punishment should only be used as an adjunct to a properly documented behaviour management strategy which is devised as a last resort procedure, after discussion with the student and his parents. It should be administered only by a designated person, probably the school principal or senior delegate, out of sight of other students and never in anger.

    Having said that, there are many steps in the behaviour management program which must be carried out before corporal punishment is considered.

    (I infer that the student is male because this is fact: most disruptive and behaviourally challenged (there’s that word again) students are male. In 40 plus years of teaching I have rarely encountered a female student who would possibly warrant corporal punishment.)

  145. wreckage

    Corporal punishment at home? Eh, maybe. At school? Never.

  146. Aussiepundit

    The idea is popular because many schools are dysfunctional and out of control. Of course, the political class don’t know that because their kids either go to private schools or ‘good’ public schools.

    There’s an appetite for change, and swinging the pendulum back in the conservative direction in education.

    The first thing they could do – although this is a state issue – is scrap the dumb system in which high performing kids are all siphoned out of the mainstream system.

  147. Senile Old Guy

    Leaving aside your emotive use of the term “belt” instead of “smack”, young children are not able to understand logic in the way that an adult can. A smack administered by a controlled adult provides instant feedback that the child’s behaviour is not acceptable.

    But the child, being unable to understand logic, will not necessarily be able to connect the punishment to the behaviour.

    Leaving aside your emotive use of the term “belt” instead of “smack”

    Would not want to use emotive language on the Cat, would we? /sarc

  148. Senile Old Guy

    The first thing they could do – although this is a state issue – is scrap the dumb system in which high performing kids are all siphoned out of the mainstream system.

    Right, so put the kids who like school and can learn into disrupted classrooms because…? It won’t affect the behaviour of the disruptive kids.

  149. .

    The first thing they could do – although this is a state issue – is scrap the dumb system in which high performing kids are all siphoned out of the mainstream system.

    What? What is wrong with this?

  150. Delta A

    The long term solution is teacher training. During 20 years as an advisory and support teacher for students with Autism Spectrum Disorder I was constantly amazed at the general lack of understanding of even the most basic behaviour management principles.

    Too many schools adopt a reactionary process rather than formulating in advance strategies for certain behaviours, and indeed for certain students. And too many teachers think that positive reinforcement is merely a euphemism for bribery.

    I spent many, many hours conducting behaviour management seminars in schools and at conferences. Happily, I found that once staff understood the principles and benefits of properly implemented programs they were usually diligent about carrying them out.

  151. Diogenes

    DeltaA

    refer my point above about lack of BM at uni level they continually repeat the mantra engaging lesson = no problems, ignoring real world issues – and as I said even the best kids have an off day

  152. stackja

    Kevin Donnelly has opened a can of worms: according to the: Guardian.

  153. Delta A

    Diogenes, you raise excellent points with which I fully agree. (Sorry, must admit that I skipped many comments prior to posting, a mistake as I am now finding.)

    My mentor during that part of my career mentioned above is credited with establishing the educational programs (in South Australia) for students with Autism Spectrum Disorder. These were based on Jean Piaget’s theory of cognitive development. Added to that, a plethora of behaviour management strategies from the mild to the ferocious of the time (mid 70s) gave me and my colleagues an amazingly rich field of theories from which to choose.

    Those were pioneering days. I’m proud to have been part of it, and to still be part of the lives of children (now productive adults) who benefited from our assistance.

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