Judith tears Joe Stiglitz a new one. Again.

Joe Stiglitz had a strange column last week where he was pushing the lazy lefty line that Australia simply emulates bad American policy.

For better or worse, economic-policy debates in the United States are often echoed elsewhere, regardless of whether they are relevant. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s recently elected government provides a case in point.

As in many other countries, conservative governments are arguing for cutbacks in government spending, on the grounds that fiscal deficits imperil their future. In the case of Australia, however, such assertions ring particularly hollow – though that has not stopped Abbott’s government from trafficking in them.

This morning Judith replied to that nonsense:

Here’s a tip, pal: there is no evidence Abbott thinks that the American model, whatever that might mean, should be emulated. In fact, Americans should be asking us for advice. After all, we are entering our 23rd year of continuous economic growth, per capita income has grown strongly and unemployment is lower than in the US.

Ouch. While that should hurt – a lot – I suspect he’ll just carry on.

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163 Responses to Judith tears Joe Stiglitz a new one. Again.

  1. 1234

    Indeed, 23 years of uninterrupted economic growth thanks to Labor amd Coalition govts over that period. And no budget crisis. Gods for Judith to note Australia’s rude economic health.

  2. .

    1234

    Australia has a lot less debt than America. Swan wanted another round of stimulus.

    You picked the wrong dog to back, again.

    Do we have a debt crisis?

    We will if we don’t pay some of it off soon.

  3. entropy

    The crisis is that we risk a debt crisis.

    But the main point of Judith’s article was salient: why do kosher many Australians think outside experts, particularly outside experts that have lived for decades off past ‘glories’ such as Nobel economics prizes, or for that matter b grade USA or pommy actors to hand out awards at our actors’ awards ceromonies, are needed or have any particular insight into what we should be doing?

    Australians will know better what went wrong over the last six years than some numpty has been who firmly believes that the very same policy solution that hasn’t worked every time and place it has been tried before will miraculously work next time.

  4. Stephan

    Seems to me Sloan just made Stiglitz’ point for him.

    We are entering our 23rd year of continuous economic growth, yes, we’re doing incredibly well. So surely the last thing we’d want to do isdefile the institutions that have served us so well, and make tertiary education and preventative health less affordable – which is in fact what Abbott has in mind, and is a step in the U.S. direction – and thus hobble our future productivity in the process.

    Americans should be asking us for advice.

    Too right. My advice? Stop tearing the social and economic fabric of your country apart by exacerbating inequality and breeding a giant poor underclass. And for god’s sake, curtail campaign donations and advertising in federal politics.

  5. JohnA

    Err, entropy, you might need to look to your meds. That up there is damn near incoherent.

  6. .

    Stephan chimes in with unquantifiable motherhood statements. Medicare is social fabric. Free university in useless courses helps the banking sector and resources sector.

    This is why you need to get a job.

  7. Stephan

    Free university in useless courses helps the banking sector and resources sector.

    Notice that wasn’t stated or implied in what I said. I’m sure my basic reading comprehension abilities will help me in my job hunt, how did you manage?

  8. .

    I knew what you said Stephan. It was nonsense.

  9. JC

    Get a fucking job, Stephanie.

  10. Stephan

    I knew what you said Stephan. It was nonsense.

    Well libertarians are statists, right? So presumably some of you here believe in some level of subsidisation for basic services, which may include tertiary education. So at what point does ‘less government money going to [X]‘ become ‘wait… bad’ rather than ‘good’?

    Surely some here could agree that student debt levels in the U.S. are outrageous and a source of lifetime impoverishment for many. Not to mention for those without appropriate medical insurance, a surprise medical event can lead to bankruptcy and homelessness. Now I know, yes they did it to themselves, the world is just etc. etc., but surely when you get to the scale of millions and a sizeable proportion living in poverty, some here could agree that something in the system is broken, yeah?

  11. Andrew

    Surely some here could agree that student debt levels in the U.S. are outrageous and a source of lifetime impoverishment for many.

    They shouldn’t take on the debt and attend the course if the opportunity cost of not attending uni and finding another job is smaller than a uni debt for a course plus the job earning capacity. That is the whole point of the market driven system, i.e. for people to become more price sensitive.

  12. Stephan

    That is the whole point of the market driven system, i.e. for people to become more price sensitive.

    That’s the ostensible point of it yes, and in many situations it works very well. But what if… gasp… that doesn’t work in every situation? Could it be that even if it is ‘all their own fault’, the system as it stands still does more harm than good?

  13. .

    Well libertarians are statists, right?

    You must be a chimp because you’re a primate.

    So presumably some of you here believe in some level of subsidisation for basic services, which may include tertiary education.

    Of the end user.

    So at what point does ‘less government money going to [X]‘ become ‘wait… bad’ rather than ‘good’?

    When it starts to incur diminishing returns in a cost benefits analysis.

    Surely some here could agree that student debt levels in the U.S. are outrageous and a source of lifetime impoverishment for many.

    No you couldn’t. Universities in America are expensive because of paper shufflers building empires.

    See here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKvLSN4eBfc

    John Stossel – Rising Cost Of College
    LibertyPen

    Published on Sep 3, 2012
    Stossel looks at some of the dynamics that have caused college costs to skyrocket.

    College tuition has had the greatest inflation of any US service. 750% from 1980 to 2009.

    State Colleges are simply wasting money.

    Not to mention for those without appropriate medical insurance, a surprise medical event can lead to bankruptcy and homelessness.

    This happens to such a low proportion of people. They should take responsibility for themselves. There are a lot of claims of this, but it is a myth. Stossel has more on this.

    but surely when you get to the scale of millions and a sizeable proportion living in poverty

    They can’t work, why? Minimum wage laws. Occupational licensing. Their means are limited. Why? taxes that fall unfairly on the poor like excise tax and US payroll/FICA tax (which also limits employment).

    some here could agree that something in the system is broken, yeah?

    Indeed, get the government out.

  14. Phill

    There are things we could borrow from the US. For example, their constitution. Its not as if they are using it.

  15. .

    That’s the ostensible point of it yes, and in many situations it works very well. But what if… gasp… that doesn’t work in every situation? Could it be that even if it is ‘all their own fault’, the system as it stands still does more harm than good?

    It works better than the government nearly every time. Nor does anyone have the foresight to accurately or reliably say when government will work better. Government failure is also a phenomena, which the left completely ignore, rather than mount a reasonable and empirically supported challenge against (it turns out market failure is actually rare).

  16. JC

    Well libertarians are statists, right?

    You deserve your stupid head in a vice , squeezed hard and left like that for a week.

  17. Well libertarians are statists, right?

    [Looks around behind himself] No.

    So presumably some of you here believe in some level of subsidisation for basic services

    No.

    which may include tertiary education.

    No.

    So at what point does ‘less government money going to [X]‘ become ‘wait… bad’ rather than ‘good’?

    For true public goods, yes.
    Paying you the dole to troll the Cat isn’t a public good.

    Surely some here could agree that student debt levels in the U.S. are outrageous and a source of lifetime impoverishment for many.

    So is blowing your dough on a sure thing at Randwick.

    Not to mention for those without appropriate medical insurance, a surprise medical event can lead to bankruptcy and homelessness.

    No, I pay compulsory health insurance and private insurance, a large proportion of which subsidises people like yourself who won’t pay their own way.

    Now I know, yes they did it to themselves, the world is just etc. etc., but surely when you get to the scale of millions and a sizeable proportion living in poverty, some here could agree that something in the system is broken, yeah?

    I’m sure you mean relative poverty, no one need live in real poverty here.
    Even someone on the dole here is in the top 5% of the worlds rich.

    Go away and read up on ‘classical liberalism’ and come back in a year or two. You’re wasting your time here. I highly recommend a good barista course.

  18. Stephan

    It works better than the government nearly every time. Nor does anyone have the foresight to accurately or reliably say when government will work better. Government failure is also a phenomena, which the left completely ignore, rather than mount a reasonable and empirically supported challenge against (it turns out market failure is actually rare).

    That seems mostly reasonable to me. I’m happy to say the market works best in the vast majority of cases. But it’s rarely a debate over government vs. private, it’s about how much, and more importantly what kind of government intervention works best – because there is almost inevitably call for some degree.

    College tuition has had the greatest inflation of any US service. 750% from 1980 to 2009.

    State Colleges are simply wasting money.

    But wait a minute, students here get ‘federal aid’, and unis here also get a sizeable proportion of their money from government. So what’s the key difference here? Seems to me it’s simply a case of people being insensitive to price signals in this area, and that governments letting unis charge whatever they want, rather than capping fees as done here, is a bad idea.

  19. The question which raises most doubt about Keynesian spending: How come so few leftist intellectuals are prepared to defy the snakes in their own pockets?

  20. Stephan

    You deserve your stupid head in a vice , squeezed hard and left like that for a week.

    Sounds like you need to take your nuts out of one first.

  21. wreckage

    Market failure is rare, government failure in predicting and managing markets is endemic (not inevitable, just endemic).

    The main plain reason for reducing the subsidization of tertiary education is that it is public money for private benefit. Yes, society gets knock-on benefits, but no more than from any other branch of crony capitalism or regulatory capture, and experience suggests, rather emphatically in fact, that these do not equal, let alone outweigh, the costs of the subsidy.

    The costs of subsidies are always both economic and social: one persons choices and preferences are given financial support, and in turn, of course, everyone else’s choices and preferences are penalized. After all, I live in a society, not an economy, so the money must always be assumed to be taken from other members of society, who, in turn, must be considered my equals.

    Personally, since zero-interest, government guaranteed loans for tertiary education are totally sufficient to ensure anyone who wants an education can get it, that should be the extent of subsidization.

  22. wreckage

    Stephan, the market is working on correcting college tuition fees. There’s some kinks to work out, but ultimately most purely academic courses will be delivered entirely online. That’s why we need the NBN, remember? Innovative delivery of medical, educational, and entertainment services?

  23. Stephan

    Hmm, need to go down to centrelink to sort out my claim. They’re so good at losing paperwork. Bye.

  24. wreckage

    Entirely online, and almost entirely for free, in the case of relatively static, knowledge-based areas.

  25. Stephan

    There’s some kinks to work out, but ultimately most purely academic courses will be delivered entirely online. That’s why we need the NBN, remember? Innovative delivery of medical, educational, and entertainment services?

    Definitely agree with this.

  26. wreckage

    Technology is almost always the answer ;)

  27. Gab

    That’s why we need the NBN, remember?

    LOL Just heard someone who inquired about switching over the the NBN with their current provider. He currently has speeds of around 20mpbs. When he switches over to the NBN (for the same price) he’ll be getting 12 mbps.

  28. Infidel Tiger

    Surely some here could agree that student debt levels in the U.S. are outrageous and a source of lifetime impoverishment for many.

    I love how lefties think personal debt acquired through one’s own financial stupidity is the most terrible thing on God’s green earth, but have never seen a government deficit they didn’t want to embiggen.

  29. Stephan

    LOL Just heard someone who inquired about switching over the the NBN with their current provider. He currently has speeds of around 20mpbs. When he switches over to the NBN (for the same price) he’ll be getting 12 mbps.

    He might care about upload speeds, the feature entirely left out of the NBN vs Fraudband debate. NBN makes cloud computing possible, Fraudband is an overpriced ‘video entertainment system’ and little more.

  30. Gab

    NBN makes cloud computing possible

    I’ not connected to the NBN and have no problem with cloud computing, as you call it.

    Fraudband is an overpriced ‘video entertainment system’ and little more.

    Yes, I agree the NBN is overpriced Labor boondoggle that should never have been undertaken by government and left to the market to implement. The guy was told he could get 20mbps on the NBN but that he’d have to pay more.

  31. .

    But wait a minute, students here get ‘federal aid’, and unis here also get a sizeable proportion of their money from government. So what’s the key difference here? Seems to me it’s simply a case of people being insensitive to price signals in this area, and that governments letting unis charge whatever they want, rather than capping fees as done here, is a bad idea.

    Yes, they are state run universities. They are subsidised in the first place and crowd out the competition.

    That seems mostly reasonable to me. I’m happy to say the market works best in the vast majority of cases. But it’s rarely a debate over government vs. private, it’s about how much, and more importantly what kind of government intervention works best – because there is almost inevitably call for some degree.

    Far less than now. Most government spending is wasteful. The US had worse poverty stats after the Great Society programme. Per capita, they had gotten wealthier.

  32. entropy

    Why would the common household give a shit about upload speeds?

  33. .

    He might care about upload speeds, the feature entirely left out of the NBN vs Fraudband debate. NBN makes cloud computing possible, Fraudband is an overpriced ‘video entertainment system’ and little more.

    The NBN is fraudband. You are being a mindless, well trained zombie here.

    How much of the NBN was completed by the time Abbott was elected, after three years of construction?

    About 1%. Stop defending such unjustifiable waste.

  34. Stephan

    Why would the common household give a shit about upload speeds?

    Why would the common household give a shit about download speeds?

    - Average person 20 years ago

  35. Stephan

    How much of the NBN was completed by the time Abbott was elected, after three years of construction?

    At least it was making progress. Progress has now virtually halted, with precisely zero households connected to FTTN since the election.

    So now we have sooner, and most likely cheaper and more affordably. Yay, politically expedient policy!

  36. .

    At least it was making progress.

    So we’d have the NBN in 2310?

    FFS. You’re not an idiot but you are letting yourself down.

  37. Mr Rusty

    NBN makes cloud computing possible

    And now explain to everyone why that is such a great benefit to society, include the cost/benefit analysis – while I just nip off and upload some files to the cloud using the existing copper network (apparently the cloud doesn’t exist yet in Stephanie’s world.)

  38. brc

    Wait…did someone say NBN? That ridiculous, nationalised relic which was announced seven years ago and, if every person with an NBN connection entered the MCG, they’d only have to use the Southern Stand?

    We may argue about many things, but renationalising communications technology so it could be handed back to union mates will turn out to be the number 1 most idiotic policy out of an outstanding field of stupidity by the RGR governments. It’s been seven years and 20? Billion dollars and the project is dead in there water.

    Cloud computing works fine on all current connections – including the burgeoning mobile/tablet market, where all the current growth in devices and usage is happening.

    Should we have faster broadband available? Of course! Should we have created a nationalised soviet era company to do it, and pay taxpayer money to private companies to rip up infrastructure? Of course not.

    The funny thing is – as the Austrlaian nerd-class sees Google rolling out fibre in select US cities they cry out ‘Google, please save us from Abbott666 and his dastardly plan to remove our broadband human rights!’

    And the joke is on them, because Conroy and his well fed union buddies made it illegal for Google to come and install fibre, even if it wanted to.

    So you’re stuck with a bunch of unionised bludgers operating a lossmaking company that can’t even dig holes in the ground properly, competition has been made illegal, and taxpayer money was given to a private company, which then used it to build out a 4g network that works like a champ and already out speeds the basic NBN offering ….. And isn’t tied to a house.

    Just the usual socialist triumph, led by a faction-counting goon like Conroy who wouldn’t know if he had a 56k modem up his rear until he heard the dial tone.

  39. .

    NBN makes cloud computing possible

    Stephan. Please. This is bullshit. We had cloud computing before the NBN.

  40. .

    brc – brilliant refutation on why we “need” the NBN and why the NBN lovers are gormless self interested fools.

  41. Stephan

    while I just nip off and upload some files to the cloud using the existing copper network (apparently the cloud doesn’t exist yet in Stephanie’s world.)

    I’ not connected to the NBN and have no problem with cloud computing, as you call it.

    Interesting, as uploading a few gigs of high-quality photos on my fairly average 8/1 Mbps ADSL connection would take somewhere around 4-6 hours. Not too practical, hmm? And that kind of data is nothing compared to what an aspiring startup home-business might use.

  42. entropy

    Cloud computing needs high speed wireless services. Otherwise its utility is highly diminished. The NBN doesn’t help improve the quality of cloud services. You don’t upload your entire photo library every day.

    Staphanie, the average household is a consumer of content. The relevance of upload speed is the ability to have a stutter free video conference, ie about 1.5 Mbps. Higher speeds improve video quality, but so what? It isn’t worth $eleventy billion.

  43. Mr Rusty

    Interesting, as uploading a few gigs of high-quality photos on my fairly average 8/1 Mbps ADSL connection would take somewhere around 4-6 hours.

    Interesting as it takes 60 minutes to drive 20kms in rush hour traffic, if we replaced every road with a 10 lane superhighway we could reduce it to 10 minutes. Let’s spend 300 trillion dollars doing that right!

  44. brc

    The whole point of cloud computing is to offload processor and bandwidth intensive operations to a remote data centre where scale and automation are used to slash costs. Then control the input/output with a simple interface that makes few assumptions about the device operating it.

    The biggest benefit for the NBN consumer is online gaming and video downloading. Education, health and other delivery is already managed just fine with exciting connections, though they could be faster. And they would be faster, had $60 billion gorilla not sat on the market 7 years ago and killed all investment in it.

    It’s no coincidence that mobile broadband speeds and data allowances are up 100 fold since Rudd proposed a modest 4.7 billion in some fibre backbone, to be called NBN. Because that’s the only segment of the market where private investment has been possible. And happily for them, it’s also where the majority of growth has come from.

    For the NBN fans, they have to face up to the fact the entire thing was a vanity project by a hapless Labour Party scratching for a new ‘snowy rivers scheme’. Well, I’ve seen the snowy river scheme, and the NBN is no snowy river scheme. The NBN is, was and always will be vapourware, a national running joke on the he people who argued their little hearts out for it. It wouldn’t be so funny if it hadn’t put us another ten years behind in network communications and wasted tens of billions in borrowed taxpayer funds.

  45. Infidel Tiger

    If you need mind blowing bandwidth speeds, buy it your fucking self or move your business or home to a location where it’s available.

  46. brc

    Interesting, as uploading a few gigs of high-quality photos on my fairly average 8/1 Mbps ADSL connection would take somewhere around 4-6 hours. Not too practical, hmm? And that kind of data is nothing compared to what an aspiring startup home-business might use.

    Apart from your use case being total BS, the NBN is the reason you don’t have faster speeds. Not Abbott, not Hockey, not Turnbull.

    You were supposed to have NBN by now. I was making a fire recently and was tearing up an old newspaper. It was from 2010, and it had a full page ad. It said the NBN rollout was happening now, and most Australians would be connected by 2016.

    Find me one Australian with NBN. So far on this blog, only one person has ever said they have it.

    The reason we have bad speed in house country is because the government outlawed competition and then did nothing for 7 years.

    If you want someone to blame, I’m sure Stephen Conroy has an email address on the APH website. He was the one who was in charge. He was the one who failed. You cannot blame the Abbott government for lack of high speed broadband in this country, because they never had a chance to block it.

  47. JC

    If you need mind blowing bandwidth speeds, buy it your fucking self or move your business or home to a location where it’s available.

    But telemedicine in remote aboriginal areas! Think of the children.

  48. brc

    If you want to visualise the NBN, try this:
    - imagine a photo of a queue of Russians standing outside a soviet grocery store waiting to buy bread from a shop with no bread
    Now
    - replace the Russians with Australians, and replace the loaves of bread with NBN connections

    There is no difference, at all. Both are failures caused by the outlawing of private enterprise in an industry segment, and the replacement of production with a government owned enterprise.

    The fact that I and many others pointed this out numerous times in the last seven years and were called dinosaurs and other assorted names just makes it all the more tiring to have to be proven right, yet again.

  49. thefrollickingmole

    1: Libitarian: This single mother should agree to mow the doctors lawn in exchange for her medical treatment if she has no money..

    Statist reply: Muh children, Muh inequality, Muh welfare state, Muh exploitation….

    2: Statist: This lawn mowing contractor should mow 3 out of his 10 lawns today (including the doctors) to pay for the single mother with no money rather than she work for it..

    Statist reply: Yeah stick it to the ruthless exploiter class (no not the single mum, the lawnmowing man)…

    Its pretty fucking simple, nothing is free even when the government “gives” it to you.

  50. wreckage

    Well, the result of taking the entire comms network and handing it to the ALP should have been fucking obvious from the outset. I defend better broadband, which is why I hate the NBN.

  51. Richard

    If you want to visualise the NBN, try this:
    - imagine a photo of a queue of Russians standing outside a soviet grocery store waiting to buy bread from a shop with no bread
    Now
    - replace the Russians with Australians, and replace the loaves of bread with NBN connections

    Recall that it was Helen Coonan and John Howard who stopped Sol Trujilo from building the NBN with private money for 5$BN , as they feared his vertical integration would mean a monopoly that abandoned rolling out NBN to unprofitable rural seats. Indeed, Labor’s original public NBN plan was to start with rural seats (such as Tony Windsor’s New England) rather than urban seats where the installation would ramp up profits more quickly. The political, rather than market, consideration is: buy off rural votes first, buy off key backers (cross benchers) in parliament first,
    The banning of private competition in this instance was entirely politically motivated by both sides of politics. Sol Trujilo was offside because he was brought in to show that, with Telstra privatised, the government really has no business telling it what to do. This is similar to what Chris berg wrote in his paper about how “Government wants to direct how private companies spend money using regulations.”

  52. brc

    Richard…the pox on both their houses rubbish is…well…rubbish. The NBN was the creation of Rudd. To somehow suggest Howard somehow prevents a person from fast broadband is a joke. Rudd was elected with his grandiose plans, they had seven years and an extremely open chequebook to get it done and they failed and destroyed the chance of private enterprise picking up the pieces. The fact that any Australian is unhappy with the speeds available are the the responsibility of Rudd, Gillard and Conroy.

    The original coalition plan would have subsidised connections to rural areas same as any other communications policy by all sides of politics. That link doesn’t even remotely suggest any of this is Howard’s doing except that they were determined to deal with people other than Telstra.

    Face it. Conroy and Rudd promised free bread for all Australians and they are still lined up outside the shop waiting for the delivery, which will never arrive.

  53. H B Bear

    Loved Sol Trujilo. He showed what a cosy, comfortable backwater Australian business/government truly is.

    I bet he is still laughing about the time he spend down here.

  54. Hmm, need to go down to centrelink to sort out my claim. They’re so good at losing paperwork. Bye.

    Government in action inaction.

  55. wreckage

    Loved Sol Trujilo. He showed what a cosy, comfortable, inbred, cotton-woolled, pansy, namby-pamby sooky clown-nosed den of fuckwittery backwater Australian business/government truly is.

    FIFY

  56. rich

    To somehow suggest Howard somehow prevents a person from fast broadband is a joke.

    The public record says otherwise. Let it be said in the history… that the NBN in Australia was actually Sol’s idea. He made an offer to Helen Coonan to build it privately but was knocked back.

    The LNP feared a monopoly more than they wanted fast broadband. So how does Labor solve it? By building a state owned monopoly. Lolol.

  57. wreckage

    It’s only 50% state owned, so even the idea that private enterprise couldn’t be trusted but a stolid state-run utilities department could be doesn’t hold.

    But yeah, illustrates the problem with being so damned conservative you cut your own throat. JH shoulda let it go ahead, thrown in a couple mill and touted it as his very own brainchild.

  58. Craig Mc

    Find me one Australian with NBN. So far on this blog, only one person has ever said they have it.

    As an exercise, I went through my address book and entered all my friends’ addresses in to see if they could hook up to NBN. The project’s due to be completed by 2020, so we should be about a quarter-way through deployment. 144 random addresses * 1/4 deployment => about 32 hits.

    I only got one. And these are almost entirely big smoke addresses where installation is easiest.

    NBN fanboys are the saddest socialist morons on Earth.

  59. oldsalt

    Statist – Detain those pesky Lankans!

    Libertarian – Yay Freedom of the Seas!

    Or is it the other way around

  60. Boambee John

    “why do kosher many Australians think outside experts, particularly outside experts that have lived for decades off past ‘glories’ such as Nobel economics prizes, or for that matter b grade USA or pommy actors to hand out awards at our actors’ awards ceromonies, are needed or have any particular insight into what we should be doing?”

    entropy:

    In the “old days”, the left sneered at their opponents for having a cultural cringe, now the left is the repository of the cultural cringe.

  61. Leo G

    Well libertarians are statists, right?

    Who might throw statist libertarians in the well?
    Along the statist/anarchist axis, most libertarians would gather about the minarchist position. Where does a welfare statist claim to queue?

  62. Chris M

    There are things we could borrow from the US. For example, their constitution.

    Yes! Pretty sure the Abbott Libz are keen on the free speechin and gunz. Or maybe I’m mistaken…

  63. JohnA

    rich #1382494, posted on July 15, 2014 at 4:28 pm

    To somehow suggest Howard somehow prevents a person from fast broadband is a joke.

    The public record says otherwise. Let it be said in the history… that the NBN in Australia was actually Sol’s idea. He made an offer to Helen Coonan to build it privately but was knocked back.

    The LNP feared a monopoly more than they wanted fast broadband. So how does Labor solve it? By building a state owned monopoly. Lolol.

    Of course the Libs were leery of a monopoly. They had tried to break up the PMG monopoly in the first place.

    But they stuffed up the separation of Telecom and Australia Post, because they let Telecom keep the old Regulations and the horrible public service culture. Have you forgotten the fight to get competition into telecomms in this country?

    They should have kept the network infrastructure in government ownership (like roads) and opened the wholesale/retail end to competition. Then Telecom and AP would have been operating in equivalent fashion. Instead they got it right with AP (well, until recently) and hideously wrong with Telecom.

  64. Andrew

    FFS. You’re not an idiot but and you are letting yourself down.

  65. Stephan

    The LNP feared a monopoly more than they wanted fast broadband.

    LOL, Howard created this mess in the first place by creating a vertically-integrated private monopoly which obviously had no need to maintain letalone upgrade their shitty 3rd-world copper beyond bare minimum.

    Labor tried to fix it by having the natural monopoly in public hands (initially, then the Greens legislatively cemented this), with complete vertical separation. Smart idea.

    Of course, Abbott and Turnbullshit are continuing in the fine LNP tradition of crony capitalism by handing market domination back to Telstra, and of course giving their Telstra exec mates ‘jobs for the boys’ on the NBN board.

  66. wreckage

    So, Telstra is crony capitalism, but the NBN isn’t. Brilliant! I applaud your reasoning. Now logically prove that a rabbit is a hat.

  67. Stephan

    Telstra is private. NBN is a public entity. Does that make it a bit clearer?

  68. Leo G

    “I defend better broadband, which is why I hate the NBN.”

    Quite so.

    “Well, the result of taking the entire comms network and handing it to the ALP should have been fucking obvious from the outset. “

    Labor expanded the internet backbone with late 20th century technology, then chose to use a 150-year-old switching method to connect the last mile to customers. The interesting question is why they chose not to use the switching method that made the internet possible.

  69. .

    The banning of private competition in this instance was entirely politically motivated by both sides of politics

    Correct. The government is to blame.

    LOL, Howard created this mess in the first place by creating a vertically-integrated private monopoly

    Telstra were not a monopoly when they were privatised. They’re not now either.

    Labor tried to fix it by having the natural monopoly in public hands (initially, then the Greens legislatively cemented this), with complete vertical separation. Smart idea.

    Telecomm of the 1970s and 80s used to spend weeks if not months connecting people to landlines.

    This is true. This isn’t bullshit.

    The idea the ALP had, and Greens backed, would have been fucking disastrous.

  70. wreckage

    NBN is corporatised. Different cats, perhaps, same cream.

  71. .

    There is technology out there just as good for a much lower price than the NBN anyway.

    We’ve been sold a pup.

    http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/solutions/vdsl2-vectoring

    VDSL vectoring uses copper. Didn’t we start ripping out all of the copper?

    The NBN has been a bad idea from the start.

    If we change internet protocols to something quicker than TCP/IP, with VDSL Vectoring anf other private technologies, the unfinished NBN will look like a joke in a few years time.

  72. wreckage

    Good point, dot. Wires in a government owned corporate monopoly just retains all of the problems that made privatisation necessary in the first place.

    Shoulda just brought in Google.

  73. brc

    LOL, Howard created this mess in the first place by creating a vertically-integrated private monopoly which obviously had no need to maintain letalone upgrade their shitty 3rd-world copper beyond bare minimum.

    Labor tried to fix it by having the natural monopoly in public hands (initially, then the Greens legislatively cemented this), with complete vertical separation. Smart idea.

    Of course, Abbott and Turnbullshit are continuing in the fine LNP tradition of crony capitalism by handing market domination back to Telstra, and of course giving their Telstra exec mates ‘jobs for the boys’ on the NBN board.

    Lies. All of them.

    If it’s such a natural monopoly, why did just about every country deregulate and open up telecoms to private enterprise and competition.

    NBN – the profits flow to labor mates – altruistic. Privately owned fibre networks like the google fibre rollout – Crony capitalism.

    Yeah, right.

    I’m tired of waiting for my state supplied broadband connection. I have a friend who grew up in east Germany. I must ring him and get him to tell me how long his family waited for a trabant again. However, I think Trabant production was prolific compared to NBN connections.

    I dare anyone to defend the NBN as a good idea. Who will take up the challenge?

  74. .

    wreckage
    #1382568, posted on July 15, 2014 at 5:40 pm
    NBN is corporatised. Different cats, perhaps, same cream.

    It is absolutely crony capitalism. ALP mates in top jobs and paid megabucks for epic failure.

  75. Stephan

    The idea the ALP had, and Greens backed, would have been fucking disastrous.

    Yeah. I guess it must be that the entire IT industry (outside Malcolm’s mates in Telstra) are wrong, and the hard-right and LNP partisans are right.

    Reminds me of another, much more serious and wide-reaching ‘debate’.

    “I reject your reality and replace my own!” Or, as Sloppy Joe would say: “I don’t accept that.”

  76. brc

    , the unfinished NBN will look like a joke in a few years time.

    Are we calling it unfinished? That’s a bit generous. A house without doors is unfinished. A house with two footings dug and an impressive artist rendering promising how good it will be is merely a botched pipe dream.

  77. .

    I guess it must be that the entire IT industry

    You mean, whingers who want the NBN for porn and gaming who believe they represent the whole industry.

    You’re not looking at facts, Stephan. Yet you have the gall to say others are being unrealistic.

  78. brc

    Yeah. I guess it must be that the entire IT industry (outside Malcolm’s mates in Telstra) are wrong, and the hard-right and LNP partisans are right.

    A clench of minecraft players on whinge pool does not the IT industry make.

  79. wreckage

    The IT industry is not the telecoms industry.

    It’s like saying the coal miners are wrong because all steam locomotive companies agree coal should be supplied in bulk, for free, by the government.

  80. wreckage

    Farmers are wrong because every breadmaker I know thinks that free wheat would be ace. Which proves that a government owned company to grow wheat is the best way to grow wheat: bakers agree! DARE YOU ARGUE BREAD WITH A BAKER I THOUGHT NOT LULZ.

  81. Senile Old Guy

    I dare anyone to defend the NBN as a good idea. Who will take up the challenge?

    Not me. The NBN could not have been a bigger disaster if it had been planned this way.

  82. wreckage

    How do you even function, given your inability to follow even two consecutive steps of logical reasoning?

    My kids all agree it takes too long to get places, which proves the government built rocket car we don’t actually have is totally way better than that shitty Mazda they confiscated!

  83. wreckage

    I sure do love this harem of supermodels I don’t actually have. Good thing I shot the missus!

  84. wreckage

    I am on fire. I should be getting paid for this.

  85. Tel

    So surely the last thing we’d want to do isdefile the institutions that have served us so well,

    You mean our mining and agriculture, our banks and insurance companies, our legal industry? Those are the people pulling in the economic surplus that keeps us afloat. I guess I could include construction as well.

  86. Neil

    “Indeed, 23 years of uninterrupted economic growth thanks to Labor amd Coalition govts over that period. And no budget crisis.”

    No budget crisis?? Are you insane??

    Govt debt was 7% of GDP in 1991 and reached 18% of GDP in 1995 and rapidly increasing. Labor under Keating ran budget deficits of $10B, $15B, $15B, $13B and $6B before they lost office in 1996.

    Furthermore Labor sold assets like Qantas, CSL, Comm Bank and used the money on recurrent spending making the ALP deficits smaller than they would have been. That is why Costello removed money from asset sales from the budget. Costello used the money to pay off debt when he sold Telstra but the money was never put into the budget as revenue.

    We were not in good shape in 1996 and unemployment was at 8%.

  87. Stephan

    I dare anyone to defend the NBN as a good idea. Who will take up the challenge?

    It’s a fairly simple case. From extrapolating the roughly logarithmic increase in bandwidth demand thus far, FTTN (“Fraudband”) will be obsolete around 2020, with some estimates at 2010. FTTP, with easy upgrades, can probably last well beyond 2050.

    Another fairly important fact: with FTTP – you get the speeds you paid for on paper, guaranteed. With FTTN – no matter what you pay, you are guaranteed jackshit, which is why the LNP have backed away from their 25 mbit minimum speed lie, because it’s simply an impossible guarantee on our 3rd world copper (which they knew).

    On that basis alone, I know which I’d go with. On cost, with the copper buyback (which we’ll be gouged through the arse with by Telstra – oh the irony) and massive power requirements, FTTN could well end up costing more anyway – and certainly will once FTTP is inevitably deployed.

  88. wreckage

    with some estimates at 2010

    Snicker.

  89. Senile Old Guy

    with some estimates at 2010

    Snicker.

    Exactly, wreckage. You are on fire.

  90. wreckage

    Point is, Stephan that a monolithic, monopolistic, government-rollout of anything, including unicorn farts and leprecahun piss, was always going to be done late-or-never at orders of magnitude greater than planned cost. Throw the ALP in there, whose only talent is convoluted yet strangely naiive contracts that defy later unraveling but ream the taxpayer like a bead-stringer on meth, and you’ve got an A-1 way to guarantee Australia winds up MINIMUM twenty years behind everyone.

  91. Empire

    Harden the fuck up Stephan.

  92. Stephan

    As far as the NBN being a good idea in the first place, uhh, simple. There’s demand for it, and it makes sense to have a fibre network in public hands making money for us (not too many bureaucrats involved in its upkeep), rather than a bunch of regional/suburban monopolies all gouging everyone through the arse like in the U.S. (until a massive player like Google can come along and upset things).

  93. JC

    Stephanie

    You talking bullshit as usual pretending that NBN life started only after the Liars party introduced the proposal. Prior to that, two firms were making a bids for a rollout. Shut up and stop talking crap. Go find a fucking job.

  94. wreckage

    *strangely naiive being my code phrase for “corrupt as all fuck.”

  95. Tel

    Hmm, need to go down to centrelink to sort out my claim. They’re so good at losing paperwork. Bye.

    Now imagine your next medical procedure handled with that same level of care and efficiency.

  96. JC

    As far as the NBN being a good idea in the first place, uhh, simple.

    It may be, but certainly not in the way it was conceived you clown. It failed a cost benefit analysis.

    There’s demand for it, and it makes sense to have a fibre network in public hands making money for us (not too many bureaucrats involved in its upkeep), rather than a bunch of regional/suburban monopolies all gouging everyone through the arse like in the U.S. (until a massive player like Google can come along and upset things).

    It’s cheaper in the US and pound for pound it’s much better having it in private hands with the government acting as the umpire rather than acting both as the supplier and the umpire.

    Here’s a question for you, you doughnut. At what cost would you say it isn’t worth it? Give us a number.

  97. Stephan

    Point is, Stephan that a monolithic, monopolistic, government-rollout of anything, including unicorn farts and leprecahun piss, was always going to be done late-or-never at orders of magnitude greater than planned cost. Throw the ALP in there, whose only talent is convoluted yet strangely naiive contracts that defy later unraveling but ream the taxpayer like a bead-stringer on meth, and you’ve got an A-1 way to guarantee Australia winds up MINIMUM twenty years behind everyone.

    Yeah, yeah. Gubmin’t bayd. Lab’r bayd. Dollops of angry, black and white ideology. I give up, later homies.

  98. wreckage

    There’s demand for it

    You know what responds to demand? The market! Now think of something that responds to polls and headlines! Here’s a hint! It rhymes with “Revin Kudd”.

    and it makes sense to have a fibre network in public hands making money for us

    Buy shares. Done. When companies tear a few million out of a company to prop up their bankrupt pet projects and hide the losses, it’s illegal. When the government does it it’s a “dividend”. At least if something is privately owned, the management is answerable to the law. Can you think of an institution that is, by and large, immune to the law, because it writes the law? Here’s a hint! It rhymes with “parliament”.

  99. JC

    Yeah, yeah. Gubmin’t bayd. Lab’r bayd. Dollops of angry, black and white ideology. I give up, later homies.

    Yep about as much as we could expect from a fucking moron. Go get a fucking job, you useless clown.

  100. wreckage

    Dollops of angry, black and white ideology

    Angry? I’m having a great time. Come back!

  101. wreckage

    He seems sad. Do you think “rhymes with parliament” was too tough a hint? I try to take it easy on these guys, make them feel included and capable. It’s the decent thing to do.

  102. Infidel Tiger

    Stephan, there is no business case or cost benefit analysis on earth that isn’t generated in a crack house by bath salt smoking lunatics that can justify the NBN.

    Dreamt up by wanker for wankers. Paid for by idiot taxpayers.

  103. JC

    But, but think of telemedicine for remote areas. A specialist could preform surgery over the NBN.

  104. Stephan

    At what cost would you say it isn’t worth it? Give us a number.

    Oh and JC – I reckon $100 billion would probably be about my limit. It’s a guaranteed ROI, unless a meteor hits or people give up the internet, so that’s fine.

  105. Gab

    Wonder how many schools are hooked up to the NBN? Labor was always boasting about that possibility but there don’t seem to be many, maybe one or two schools. Not much progress in six years.

  106. Gab

    It’s a guaranteed ROI

    LOL.Gosh, he’s just priceless!

  107. wreckage

    I think Stephan’s parting shot could be dramatised thus:

    STEPHAN: Hur hur hur. Look at me. I’m wreckage. I think I’m smart because I am winning this argument hands-down but really I am a durr brain! ER ERM WERNNING WERTH LERGERC AND FERCTS DERP DER HUR. That was me, being wreckage.

    STEPHAN’S SOCK: You are so awesome. Make love to me, NOW!

  108. TJW

    I have the NBN. 25/5 speeds. I’m pretty sure that that’s possible with FTTN. 50 and 100 Mbps are way too expensive.

  109. wreckage

    It’s a guaranteed ROI

    So’s any government-enforced monopoly, you supreme intellect, you.

  110. Empire

    Stephan, it’ OK to feel disillusioned and disempowered. Remember though, the source of your malaise is not the capitalist pigs, but the clusterfuckery that is statanism.

    Take a Bex, lie down and read Hayek.

  111. Infidel Tiger

    I give up, later homies.

    Don’t give up. The way medical science is advancing you’ll be a real boy soon enough

  112. wreckage

    TJW: yep. Feasible with FTTN. Funnily enough, the entire rest of IT and telecomms didn’t freeze solid and cease to advance the moment Stephan got a hard on for optic.

  113. Senile Old Guy

    I’ll have to leave this debate to the experts.

    I still don’t understand how the internet gets to my phone when it is not plugged in.

  114. Infidel Tiger

    But, but think of telemedicine for remote areas. A specialist could preform surgery over the NBN.

    The $100,000,000,000 anal probe.

  115. JC

    Oh and JC – I reckon $100 billion would probably be about my limit. It’s a guaranteed ROI, unless a meteor hits or people give up the internet, so that’s fine.

    Doofus, they had to impose a legislated minimum return because the economics doesn’t even add add at the approx $40 odd billion. They had to buy the copper wires from Telstra in order to eliminate potential competition.

    And the private sector was willing to introduce a semblance of the NBN at a fraction of the cost.

    Dot always has said that the NBN under the Liars Party would never get done because the cost would be prohibitive… around $200 billion. He’s right.

  116. wreckage

    Well, a specialist COULD, assuming the patient had a state-of-the-art remote-operated surgical suite. And a clean-roon. And an anaesthetist. Right, ok, so no.

  117. wreckage

    JC, no worries, no matter what happens or why, it is Tony Abbott’s Fault, now and eternally; in the name of Rudd, And Gillard, and the Holy Gough, Amen.

  118. JC

    So’s any government-enforced monopoly, you supreme intellect, you.

    It’s fucking unreal. Every single leftist would have a problem understanding this. Every single one.

  119. JC

    Telemedicine, I tell you. It’s the way of the future.

  120. Stephan

    I’m pretty sure that that’s possible with FTTN.

    It’s possible, maybe, with VDSL/VDSL2 (a mostly unproven technology), on a dry day, if you happen to live within ~300m of the exchange. Otherwise you can pretty much forget it.

    Here’s a good explanation. Keep in mind FTTP can do 100 Mbps (top bar) at any distance, under any conditions.

    It’s funny that you seem to find a lot of libertarian engineers, and yet the engineering advantages of fibre-optic vs. any communication technology over the past ~25 years are obvious to anyone who cares to look. I guess government fibre = evil fibre though!

  121. Neil

    The Coalition had an NBN proposal in 2007

    http://www.archive.dbcde.gov.au/2008/01/australia_connected

    They also had signed contract with Opel to build broadband for rural areas. Conroy said he would honour the signed contract but then lied and broke the contract. Rural areas would have broadband by now.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPEL_Networks

    OPEL Networks Pty Limited was a telecommunications provider that was to establish wholesale broadband services in regional areas of Australia in the form of WiMAX and ADSL2+ via a network of DSLAMs…………The funding agreement was signed on 2007-09-09…………..The then federal opposition Communications spokesman stated that they would honour the agreement, a stance maintained after winning government two months later, despite their own competing National Broadband Network proposal”

  122. wreckage

    Government mandated monopoly fibre = clusterfuck. I leave the moral judgements re: inanimate objects to others.

  123. Infidel Tiger

    It’s funny that you seem to find a lot of libertarian engineers, and yet the engineering advantages of fibre-optic vs. any communication technology over the past ~25 years are obvious to anyone who cares to look. I guess government fibre = evil fibre though!

    You’re going to need a helluva lot of fibre to digest the shit sandwich that is the NBN.

    There is no rational economic case for a taxpayer funded NBN.

  124. wreckage

    Good point Neil, and a really interesting one: ALP denied broadband to areas that will not get fibre, purely because “fuck rural voters, that’s why”.

    The worst disadvantaged in the info economy are now close to a decade behind where they would have been if Howard had won one more term, or if Labor had the faintest shred of a social conscience.

  125. wreckage

    I’m not an ideologue. I hate corporate clusterfucks as much as I hate government ones. The NBN is both.

  126. Grigory M

    LOL Just heard someone who inquired about switching over the the NBN with their current provider. He currently has speeds of around 20mpbs. When he switches over to the NBN (for the same price) he’ll be getting 12 mbps.

    Sounds like Telstra – nothing but bad have I heard about folks who remained with them on going to the NBN. The someone you mention needs to enquire with a different provider. I’ve previously mentioned my very good experience with iiNet in making the transition, which had to occur before the copper was cut off. I was on 50GB ADSL2+ at 9Mbps. For the same monthly fee I now get 200GB (100GB Peak, 100GB Off-Peak) NBN at 24Mbps. For an additional $10 per month I also have Fetch TV.

  127. Neil

    It should not be forgotten that Conroy broke a signed contract for broadband in rural areas

    http://www.techworld.com.au/article/395910/opel_would_serving_bush_broadband_today_turnbull/

    Federal opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull has used his National Press Club address to argue the decision to scrap the Howard government’s OPEL network for an NBN has denied the bush broadband services over the past three years…………..Today Turnbull lamented the fact that OPEL was torn apart by the Rudd government in early 2008 when Senator Stephen Conroy said the joint venture failed to meet its contractual obligations.”

  128. Infidel Tiger

    Sounds like Telstra – nothing but bad have I heard about folks who remained with them on going to the NBN. The someone you mention needs to enquire with a different provider. I’ve previously mentioned my very good experience with iiNet in making the transition, which had to occur before the copper was cut off. I was on 50GB ADSL2+ at 9Mbps. For the same monthly fee I now get 200GB (100GB Peak, 100GB Off-Peak) NBN at 24Mbps. For an additional $10 per month I also have Fetch TV.

    So we’ve found a satisfied customer.

    That cost the taxpayers about $10,000,000 minimum.

  129. Stephan

    They also had signed contract with Opel to build broadband for rural areas. Conroy said he would honour the signed contract but then lied and broke the contract. Rural areas would have broadband by now.

    If Conroy betrayed them, Turnbull betrayed them even more by getting rid of the uniform wholesale price model. Now it’s going to be expensive as dicks getting decent broadband in the country if you aren’t a cashed-up farmer. Not to mention the rollout will take even longer now because like then rest of their ‘policy platform’, the LNP didn’t have a clue and just coasted in on Labor’s idiocy.

    Hopefully this failed government will also fail the next election and the proper NBN can get back on track. Until then, much like this thread, the promise of a decent communications network has been derailed.

  130. harrys on the boat

    It wouldn’t matter if the NBN was the greatest technological advancement of all time. The government should not be spending money on such schemes. Not a fucking cent. Let the Telcos build it FFS.

    The fact its a dogs fucking breakfast adds to the disgust.

  131. Grigory M

    So we’ve found a satisfied customer.

    That cost the taxpayers about $10,000,000 minimum.

    IT – your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence demonstrates a surprising lack of knowledge of either accounting or economics. But then, perhaps I’m expecting too much of an 86 year old. ;)

  132. wreckage

    coasted in on Labor’s idiocy.

    the next election and the proper NBN can get back on track

    The proper NBN, planned and implemented by idiots. Gotcha.

  133. wreckage

    Watch it GrigM, you’re picking a fight with Australia’s most dangerous and virile 86 Year old.

  134. Grigory M

    Heh – I don’t pick fights, wreckage – not even with 86 year olds. Others pick fights with me ;)

  135. Infidel Tiger

    IT – your first sentence is correct. Your second sentence demonstrates a surprising lack of knowledge of either accounting or economics. But then, perhaps I’m expecting too much of an 86 year old

    You’re right. Every NBN connection so far has probably cost a great deal more than that.

  136. Dianne

    You’re going to need a helluva lot of fibre to digest the shit sandwich that is the NBN.

    I have an old lady question -

    Why do we need it?

    I live in the middle of bumfuckegypt, and I can watch internet telly & movies, I buy shit & download it, and it takes 2.5 seconds – the kiddies tell me that they can play games, I don’t even come close to reaching my download limit, it’s affordable & I’ve got shares in the company – what are people doing that they need anything faster? Am I missing something?

  137. wreckage

    Yes you are:

    FREE STUFF FREE STUFF OMG THE GOVERNMENT PAYS FOR IT SO IT’S FREE OMG OMG OMG!

    Followed by ad-hoc justifications and rationalizations outlining how being a squealing little piglet is really the proper and principled thing.

  138. Neil

    This was the Coalitions policy in 2007. Some govt funding. A signed contract with Opel for rural ares and private companies to build the network for the cities with some govt funding

    http://archive.today/pXmK

    The Table at the bottom compares Labors pre election-2007 plan with the Coalitions.

    Of course when Labor got in their $4.7B plan was a dud. On a plane flight they then went for a much more expensive dud- the NBN.

  139. Grigory M

    I have an old lady question -

    IT – can you respond to Dianne, please?

    Dianne – seek a second opinion on IT’s accounting – it’s very creative.

  140. wreckage

    Oh, oh, I can answer for Stephan! AHEM.

    As everyone with investment and financial knowledge knows, a dollar now is worth WAY LESS than maybe two dollars, maybe ten years from now. So it is with broadband!

    Why accept improved, but ultimately in the future sometime, second rate service in mid-2008, when we could wait until 2014 and still have no fucking idea when or if it’s going to get done?

    QED angry Libertarians with ideologies and not liking the ALP and stuff! Q. E. Fucking. D.

  141. brc

    Well my challenge didn’t disappoint. I asked someone to defend the NBN. As I guessed, I got a polemic about fast broadband.

    This is like asking someone to defend the Trabsnt and getting a lecture about how good cars are.

    As usual, the pint is missed by a country mile, due to groupthink and meme repeating instead of thinking.

    The NBN is a centrally planned, government run monopoly, and has caused massive shortages in the demanded good – fast broadband. It is an utter failure on every single measure, and yet unemployed group thinkers defend it because fast broadband is good. They fail to get the point.

  142. wreckage

    Rocket cars are awesome, too. I blame Abbott for ruining Rudd’s promised “A rocket car in every garage for free but also at a profit; put there by the GOOD kind of monopoly!”

  143. Grigory M

    I asked someone to defend the NBN. As I guessed, I got a polemic about fast broadband.

    Hmmm – I responded to Gab’s comment about a person with an unsatisfactory quote to go to the NBN with their current provider, by pointing to my good experience with the transition to the NBN via my existing provider. What I said was not in any way “a polemic about fast broadband”.

    The Trabi analogy is a bit hackneyed, brc – but, be that as it may – can you point to who actually did provide this “polemic about fast broadband” to which you refer?

  144. JC

    what are people doing that they need anything faster? Am I missing something?

    I think IT once said that there’s HD porn and of course telemedicine for remote areas.

  145. wreckage

    The Trabi analogy is a bit hackneyed

    Well then, let us politely ignore the accuracy of the analogy, since it’s so terribly passe.

  146. wreckage

    JC: forget telemedicine. The future is teleprostitution.

    Our investment motto:

    get on at the ground floor, and get off anywhere!

  147. Tel

    It’s funny that you seem to find a lot of libertarian engineers, and yet the engineering advantages of fibre-optic vs. any communication technology over the past ~25 years are obvious to anyone who cares to look.

    As an engineer myself I’d be interested to hear about the advantages of fiber-optic vs. any communication technology over the past ~25 years. I’m regularly surprised by the intersting things people explain to me on this topic.

  148. Grigory M

    Well then, let us politely ignore the accuracy of the analogy, since it’s so terribly passe.

    Carried on the voices, wreckage. ;)

  149. brc

    The Trabi analogy is a bit hackneyed, brc – but, be that as it may – can you point to who actually did provide this “polemic about fast broadband” to which you refer?

    Read the comments from the unemployed poster who loves anything labor did in office.

    I don’t blame you for enjoying the benefits of a gold plated, taxpayer funded broadband solution. I certainly would as well. But then those still on the waiting list for a Trabant probably felt a little jealous of those who already had theirs as well.

    I intentionally use comparisons to soviet and East German examples because re-nationalising an industry and causing shortages through incompetence is exactly what you get when you create a government owned monopoly. The idiots who defend the NBN are delusionally thinking they were still going to get super fast, super cheap broadband…any day now…

    It’s not fast broadband people don’t like. It is the creation of of governemnt monopolies, wastage of a taxpayer money, and the ten year setback caused by same. These people are going to try and hang this albatross around Abbotts neck, and I intend to point out repeatedly, Conroy had seven years to get this thing done or substantially underway, and he failed, with tens of billions wasted. But his mates did very well indeed.

  150. Peter

    This farmer is anything but “cashed-up”.

    However if you offered me the choice between high-speed fibre broadband and decent mobile coverage, I would take the mobile coverage every time.

    I don’t need to download movies in one tenth of the time that it will take to actually watch the bloody things. What I need, is the ability to make and receive calls anywhere on my property. What would be profitable would be mobile-enabled monitoring devices able to transmit low levels of data very cheaply.

  151. Grigory M

    Read the comments from the unemployed poster who loves anything labor did in office.

    I don’t blame you for enjoying the benefits of a gold plated, taxpayer funded broadband solution.

    I read all the posts, brc – but, not a polemic in sight.

    And, I don’t give a fuck whether or not you “blame” me for anything.

    You are not even good at conflation – so perhaps the post should be allowed to go back to some analysis of Judith’s criticism of Stiglitz and his misguided views of the Australian situation vis-à-vis the American one. Perhaps you’ll do better at that.

  152. Jessie

    A reasonable history is here. 1997 Networking the Nation to 2009 NBN.
    The NTN grants were directed at regional/remote and evaluations lacked rigour. Many of the grants were aggressively taken over by local government and federal agencies in the remote Aboriginal communities.

    JC referred to remote Aboriginal.
    A tele-health pilot project in Cape York was canned mid90s by infighting among agencies. For decades prominent academics and others have been constructing race-specific software for health data collections. The ownership of these would be priceless for reporting purposes and grant seeking and even more so with tele-health: pathology, radiology, pharmaceutical, general and specialists.
    Priceless because the deliberate omission of events and/or indicators, as we have read recently of ‘new phenomena’ child neglect/abuse and violence for eg, enables continuation of post-colonial, UN environmental and socio-economic models. (holistic health).
    There have been few health gains with either National Aboriginal Community Controlled (NACCHO) or state health agencies over 4 decades in spite of their data collecting and reporting.

  153. Craig Mc

    Here’s a question for you, you doughnut. At what cost would you say it isn’t worth it? Give us a number.

    No lefty is ever honest enough to answer a question like this.

  154. .

    Stephan
    #1382611, posted on July 15, 2014 at 6:05 pm
    I dare anyone to defend the NBN as a good idea. Who will take up the challenge?

    It’s a fairly simple case. From extrapolating the roughly logarithmic increase in bandwidth demand thus far, FTTN (“Fraudband”) will be obsolete around 2020, with some estimates at 2010. FTTP, with easy upgrades, can probably last well beyond 2050.

    You’re so full of shit. Your predictions are worthless. You ignore VDSL vectoring (up to 100 mbps) which uses copper already in the ground. You keep on gibbering on with brain dead ALP sloganeering no one outside of the toxic environment on whinge pool has ever heard of. The NBN gives people performance not much better than ADSL2 (which you call “an unproven technology” – fucking bullshit).

    The private sector was offering 100 mbps prior to the NBN. PIPE networks was one company that did so, to new residential developments.

    Please Stephan, debate all you like, just don’t make shit up or ignore inconvenient facts.

  155. Leo G

    “Rocket cars are awesome, too. I blame Abbott for ruining Rudd’s promised “A rocket car in every garage for free but also at a profit; put there by the GOOD kind of monopoly!””

    The last mile a rocketway from the superhighway off-ramp direct to each household, with around the clock, driverless subwarp-drive services, he said.
    Not good enough, was the response. It must have light speed.
    A labour of lunch devised a limited-service teleport system.
    At the superhighway end, one teleport for each group of 32 households, distributing 32 copies of each passenger (or empty space) across the 32 households.
    On the other end a teleport for each of the 32 households, with unsolicited arrivals promptly deresoluted. Gazillions of round trips every hour, with the occasional net materialisation.
    But the replacement fleet engineer thought the budget engines couldn’t take it- the household teleport costs were, well, rocketing. The patch-up was to replace each group of 32 household teleports with a single teleport in the street interfacing with a rocket car to each household.
    The fleet engineer should have known better. After all, Murphy- of The Law- was a rocket sled engineer.

  156. Loved Sol Trujilo. He showed what a cosy, comfortable, inbred, cotton-woolled, pansy, namby-pamby sooky clown-nosed den of fuckwittery backwater Australian business/government truly is.

    Trujillo was a useless bullshit artist. His entire business strategy was to test the regulatory fence for holes. That’s it.

    I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he arrived, but that went out the window when he kept Telstra’s bullshit artists and sacked those that were valuable. An executive who personally blew $100 million got a promotion on nothing more than his own bullshittery. Good managers do not give promotions to people on the basis of their self-aggrandisement. It takes one to know one, I guess.

    He even played the racist card that some mean person referred to his Mexican ancestry. Diddums.

  157. richard

    Whenever I hear the word “fraudband” from Stephan, in my mind I read “four legs good two legs bad”

  158. Gab

    “Fraudband” is an excellent descriptor for the NBN.

  159. shitty 3rd-world copper

    Stephan, you’ve been listening to NBN fanboys too much. The copper you mention is infinitely higher quality than necessary for voice, a result of 100 years of development. You gave absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

  160. Blogstrop

    160 comments thanks to the undergrad ego tripping troll. I’ll leave you to enjoy this open borders scenario.

  161. nerblnob

    I was naive enough to have high hopes for the NBN but it’s been a total clusterfuck.

    Watching it over the years from Australia and abroad, and comparing to progress elsewhere, it’s probably the one thing that tipped me over the edge from thinking government could do some infrastructure things well to thinking they shouldn’t be let near them ever.

    If they’d just stood out of the way instead of smothering the market with the big wet blanket of NBN, then it’s likely that many more places would have had good broadband in Australia already.

    However my main point is:
    When reading how Judith ripped the American prof a new one, I was expecting it to be a riposte in the same forum . Instead I see that they’re both just preaching to the converted from separate platforms.

  162. Leo G

    Instead I see that they’re both just preaching to the converted from separate platforms.

    There was a lesson Joe should have learned from the consequences of his advice about the absence of any conceivable risk to the US Treasury from any debt default scenario involving the two US government business enterprises, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae- a lesson about the risk from encouraging complacency.
    It ain’t necessary just Joe, of course.
    What is the point of importing the man’s preconceptions without leaving his political partisanship at home, if not to proselytise on behalf of the US Democrats’ Australian counterparts?
    It’s not that he doesn’t understand how such consequences as a financial Armageddon can flow from a seemingly minor event. It’s not even that he hasn’t identified Australia’s present fascination with its own peculiar amplification mechanism involving overpriced assets and excess leverage- our little private and public South Sea Tulip Mania.
    It’s just that partisan politics is trumps.

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