295 people – including 27 Australians – murdered

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 has been shot down over the Ukraine.

MH 17 1

The flight, MH 17, codeshare with KLM flight KL4103, from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur is a popular cheap route for Australians to travel back home from Europe and Britain. Social media has run images of an Australian passport allegedly found at the site crash.

Relatives of those who had boarded the Boeing 777 plane have started gathering at Schipol airport and have been corralled in a separate area of the airport.

Officials from Malaysian Airlines, speaking at Schipol airport in Amsterdam said their “gravest attention is to help the people who are suffering’’, adding that they will assist family members to visit the crash site in the coming days.

A charter plane will take the families to Kiev and from there the grieving relatives will have a difficult seven-hour road trip to the site.

A special phone number for family members of passengers on the downed flight has been set up by Malaysian Airlines in Amsterdam. It is +31 703487770.

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875 Responses to 295 people – including 27 Australians – murdered

  1. Tel

    Now this is going to blow your mind, blah, blah, blah, blah, crap, crap, whatever

    Just keep avoiding the issue, channel your inner lefty evasion.

  2. Fisky

    Sorry Tel, now you seem to be claiming that a rebel commander shot down the flight??

  3. Roger

    Shorter Roger: “I’m feeling a bit fragile, Tel disagreed with moi”
    Mind reader as well as conspiracist are you, tomix?
    Just keep taking the meds, OK?

  4. Combine_Dave

    A good policeman would examine both evidence and motive

    If I accidently kill a neighbour while trying to shoot a home invader with my machine gun (perfect for home defence) by spraying rounds through walls indiscriminately should I be declared completely innocent of all wrong doing as I had to no motive to kill my neighbour?

  5. tomix

    That’s the spirit, Roger. Don’t let it get you down.

  6. Roger

    You’re overthinking it, Tel.
    Do your Libertarian leanings give you a predisposition to assume governments are always up to no good? Not mocking…serious question.

  7. Tel

    CD: I have no idea about the legality in that situation, I would guess if you did it in Australia you would be in a lot of trouble. In you example though there is no weirdness over motive though.

  8. tomix

    If the neighbour was a male, working class, white, church-going Christian, you’re probably in the clear, Combine_Dave .

    If the home invader was a Muslim Asylum Seeker, enter an early guilty plea.

  9. Combine_Dave

    Basically the equiv has happened to those Russian backed rebels ^^

  10. Tel

    Do your Libertarian leanings give you a predisposition to assume governments are always up to no good? Not mocking…serious question.

    [1] Power corrupts. [2] The first casualty of war is truth.

    The Ukrainian government has been acting very oddly on a number of occasions, remember those bullets sprayed into the crowd from the rooftops? Most people don’t make a practice of hiding evidence when they know they are innocent. The more open a government, the less opportunity they have to get up to anything, which is why a strong media are critical to a strong democracy, sadly our media are not much chop.

    I don’t have huge faith in the Australian government, but I think that’s largely incompetence. With the Ukrainan government I have a lot less faith.

    Besides, think about it if it was a person and not a government, would you trust a bunch of murder suspects to all tell the truth? Why place any more trust in a government than you would in an individual murder suspect? I mean, I don’t see that as any particular predisposition to distrust government, just that if you walk into a room and there’s a dead body and a bunch of people are pointing the finger at each other, you should think of governments no different to that. Governments are made of people after all.

    I certainly don’t trust the Obama government, because they have a track record of dishonest capers a mile long. I mean handing guns to Mexican drug gangs then just refusing to give evidence to Congress. If Obama said the sun was going to come up tomorrow, I’d buy a box of candles.

  11. Tel

    Sorry Tel, now you seem to be claiming that a rebel commander shot down the flight??

    Sorry bozo, you still struggling with that comprehension problem?

  12. stackja

    LY612 /ELY612 El Al Israel Airlines now crossing Ukraine.

  13. Roger

    I’ll take that as a yes, then, Tel.
    Interesting.
    Let’s see how this thing pans out, OK?

  14. Tel

    LY612 /ELY612 El Al Israel Airlines now crossing Ukraine.

    And staying clear of Donetsk, probably crossing over the Azov Sea.

  15. Tel

    I’ll take that as a yes, then, Tel.

    So you think that government should be given some extra trust beyond what an individual should be given?

    Like if an individual was evasive when questioned the cops would have reason to be suspicious, but when government is evasive that’s quite reasonable? May I ask why?

  16. Peter from SA

    Like if an individual was evasive when questioned the cops would have reason to be suspicious, but when government is evasive that’s quite reasonable?

    Tel I see your point in questioning why the Ukes have not released the ATC text. But suppose it is because they are sensitive and just not used to public disclosure of such things? The Malaysians were the same re MH370 from memory and their ATC text, but ultimately there was no smoking gun when they released it. Maybe the Uke ATC guy was unprofessional due to laziness, or drunk … who knows.

    It is natural for them to release a “gotcha” of the other side very quickly, like those intercepted phone transcripts. But otherwise a culture of secrecy is natural in a post-Soviet country when it comes to government activities.

  17. Combine_Dave

    If the home invader was a Muslim Asylum Seeker, enter an early guilty plea.

    Touche’!

  18. Fisky

    I don’t have huge faith in the Australian government, but I think that’s largely incompetence. With the Ukrainan government I have a lot less faith.

    But you have full faith in Vladimir Putin! Not ONCE have you questioned his honesty on this thread.

  19. Oh come on

    Serious question, Tel. Are you all right? You actually are acting quite out of character. Have you taken a knock to the head today? Any possibility of concussion?

    Again, I am not messing about now. I would send this privately but there’s no way to on the site.

  20. Porcelain Monkey

    The flight plan indicated that the aircraft was planned to fly just to the north of Donetsk. That may have been a fuck-up on the part of MAS planning. There is not one optimum route between Europe and Asia. It will change depending on weather conditions enroute.

    Tel

    The Ukraine makes some money by charging airlines for use of their airspace. This is normal and happens worldwide.

  21. Aristogeiton

    The Illuminati were probably responsible, and any consideration of the evidence will bear that out.

  22. Combine_Dave

    The Ukrainian government has been acting very oddly on a number of occasions, remember those bullets sprayed into the crowd from the rooftops? Most people don’t make a practice of hiding evidence when they know they are innocent.

    Like sending the flight recorder back to Moscow instead of to the international investigators or the buk retreating into Russia?

    To complete my earlier analogy;

    This is like me accidently killing a neighbour while trying to shoot a home invader with my machine gun (perfect for home defence) by spraying rounds through walls indiscriminately and when the Police show up my housemate behaves evasively, should I be declared completely innocent of all wrong doing as I had to no motive to kill my neighbour?

    What smoking gun is likely to exist in the ATC text that demonstates the Ukrainians shot the Malaysian flight down? And is this likely to contradict the existing evidence that suggests the culprit was the Russian backed militia?
    -intercepted conversation confirming this.
    -photo graphs of a buk deployed in the area and retreating to Russia once the mistake was made.
    -A week of both Russian forces and Russian led militia knocking Ukrainian military aircraft out of the sky in the same area.
    -Russian militia restricting access to the crash site.

  23. Combine_Dave

    One night, young David McLean sees a spaceship crash into a nearby sandpit. His father goes to investigate, but comes back changed. Where once he was cheerful and affectionate, he’s now sullen and snarlingly rude. Others fall into the sandpit and begin acting like him: cold, ill-tempered and conspiratorial. David knows that aliens are taking over the bodies of humans, but he’ll soon discover there have been far more of these terrible thefts than he could have imagined.

    Remind you of anyone in this thread? (link stolen from stackja in the open thread).
    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt0045917/

  24. Oh come on

    Another genuine question – is it possible Tel’s account has been hacked?

  25. Combine_Dave

    Another genuine question – is it possible Tel’s account has been hacked?

    I think it’s more likely he supports the Russian Federation’s war by proxy in the Ukraine and finds it hard to accept that the side he was supporting have committed a mass war crime (albeit IMHO an accidental war crime).

  26. Oh come on

    Dave, I would have said Tel was one of the more moderate, even-handed commenters. We aren’t seeing that here.

  27. Peter from SA

    Another genuine question – is it possible Tel’s account has been hacked?

    Who knows how often Sinc makes fake posts under various names? (cue Twilight Zone theme music)

  28. Tel

    I think it’s more likely he supports the Russian Federation’s war by proxy in the Ukraine

    No I don’t support the war by proxy, but for whatever reason of history, those people are ethnic Russian and they are hated by the main body of the Ukraine people, if left to themselves they will be wiped out. For the most part their position has been defensive and I respect the right of people to defend themselves, even from a government they don’t consider to be their government. The USA routinely stirs up proxy revolutions like in Libya for example, and sure no one will cry over Gaddafi, but for a bunch of small government Libertarians I see a lot of excuses round here when it comes to one government interfering with people halfway around the world.

    The best thing to hope for in Ukraine is a stable border, and eventually independence, but that seems unlikely to happen at this stage. It will probably be even less likely to happen if NATO starts bombing, or something like that.

    It also annoys me that I take the time to study these issues and the rest of you smart arse bastards can’t be bothered, and it took a lot of tries just to get you to lift a finger and look at the flight path data. Yes it is a fact that the flight path on the 17th was substantially different to the same flight on all the earlier days… this piece of the puzzle has not yet been explained, (the mainstream news has pretended there was no flight path variation) and none of your useless posturing has brought us closer to explaining it. The Ukrainian air traffic voice recording which would be the key to understanding what happened, has gone missing and none of you can explain that, although the obvious explanation would be there’s something to hide.

    Finally when I ask about motive I don’t get any sensible attempts to consider it, and even got told that murder investigations normally ignore motive completely!

  29. Tel

    Another genuine question – is it possible Tel’s account has been hacked?

    Look bozo, I don’t have an account here, I just enter an email address. Anyone who knows my email address could post as me, there is no security on this site.

  30. Ripper

    I’m with you Tel ,there are more questions than answers at the moment.

  31. Combine_Dave

    The best thing to hope for in Ukraine is a stable border, and eventually independence, but that seems unlikely to happen at this stage. It will probably be even less likely to happen if NATO starts bombing, or something like that.

    Agreed. However I very much doubt NATO will take action of any kind. The POTUS’s sanctions are probably the worst Putin will have to face, and I’d be very surprised if the disputed regions (if not all of Ukraine) were absorbed back into the Russia Federation in the next couple of years.

    The motive is obvious. They were targetting Ukrainian aircraft in the region and took out a civilian passenger jet by mistake. It’s wrong. It’s basically a war crime. But it wouldn’t be the first time civilians got killed as collateral damage in a modern war.

  32. Combine_Dave

    Yes it is a fact that the flight path on the 17th was substantially different to the same flight on all the earlier days… this piece of the puzzle has not yet been explained,

    But you yourself are ignoring that many other civilian flights used the exact same flight path as the ill fated MH17….

    Selectively piecing data together and excluding data that doesnt fit the narrative is not the work of a serious investigater it’s the actions of a crank or conspiracy theorist.

    The Ukrainian air traffic voice recording which would be the key to understanding what happened,

    How so? What more could it tell us and where is your evidence that it has gone walk about? Has it been sent to Moskau along with the plane’s flight recorder and the buk and its Russian crew?

  33. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Breaking news here in the Wild West, one of the black boxes has been found…

  34. Peter from SA

    Breaking news here in the Wild West, one of the black boxes has been found…

    of which MAS airliner?

  35. Combine_Dave

    Flight path not unique;

    MAS reiterated that the route over Ukrainian airspace where the disaster occurred yesterday is commonly used for Europe and Asia flights.
    The national carrier pointed out that another flight from a different carrier was on the same route yesterday, at the same time of the MH17 incident.

    http://m.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ukraine-traffic-controllers-instructed-mh17-to-fly-lower-mas-says

  36. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Peter from SA – Sorry, the one shot down in the Ukraine.

  37. Combine_Dave

    Hi Zulu,

    Apparently there’s more than one. The first one recovered appears to have been sent to Russia, the current headlines are referring to the latest find as a ‘second’ black box recorder.

    Do they record different data? Or are both the same?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696631/Pro-Russian-separatists-thought-shot-MH17-claim-flights-black-box-say-sent-Moscow.html

  38. Peter from SA

    ZK2A … apologies for my flippancy … did they really find it?

  39. Leo G

    Yes it is a fact that the flight path on the 17th was substantially different to the same flight on all the earlier days… this piece of the puzzle has not yet been explained

    MH17 was almost directly over the TAMAK waypoint near the Rostov-Ukraine border when contact was lost. The TAMAK waypoint lies directly on Air way L980, a commonly used great circle route between Western Europe and South Asia.
    What’s to explain?

  40. Cheryl

    There was footage on the ABC about an hour ago with someone in the fields with a box in his hands.

  41. Porcelain Monkey

    There are two different recorders that could be referred to as black boxes. The CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) and the FDR (Flight Data Recorder).

  42. Combine_Dave

    Seems likely. According to the interwebs there’s usually two of these with each box recording diff data. Not sure which one the Russians have and which one the international team have.

  43. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Peter of SA, no need to apologize, but the breaking news is that, yes, a black box has been found, but I don’t know if it contains separate data.

    There is a slightly thoughtful mood in the Wild West. You may have guessed there is a Dutch connection with my family and I’ve flown Malaysian Airlines, Kuala Lumpar to Amsterdam and return about a dozen times….

  44. Armadillo

    There is a slightly thoughtful mood in the Wild West.

    And the mood in the East is equally thoughtful. Zulu. Mrs A’s father flew the Moscow-Tehran-Tokyo-New York run for almost 30 years. It was at a time when the world was supposedly much less safe than it is today. No longer so. It is difficult to understate the implications of what has happened here.

  45. Oh come on

    Look bozo, I don’t have an account here, I just enter an email address. Anyone who knows my email address could post as me, there is no security on this site.

    Still not entirely convinced you are you.

  46. Peter from SA

    There is a slightly thoughtful mood in the Wild West. You may have guessed there is a Dutch connection with my family and I’ve flown Malaysian Airlines, Kuala Lumpar to Amsterdam and return about a dozen times….

    ZK … yes I have only flown that particular route once, as have many Aussies it seems … but the historic connection between WA and the Dutch goes back a long time. Is there any particular modern connection with WA and the Dutch or is it just a family thing?

  47. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    or is it just a family thing

    Uuuuuummmmm – my wife is related to Conrad Emile Lambert Helfrich……and there is a connection to a veteran of the “De Ruyter” who spent time on the Burma railway…..

  48. Armadillo

    Perhaps it’s the Dutch East Indies you are thinking of Pete? It’s pretty close to WA. Sort of.

  49. nerblnob

    To extend your analogy Combine Dave, your evasive housemate provided this powerful weapon, didn’t really try to train you in it to prevent you from harming the neighbours, and has a history of confrontation with the coppers and used to be your landlord’s landlord.

  50. Peter from SA

    Uuuuuummmmm – my wife is related to Conrad Emile Lambert Helfrich……and there is a connection to a veteran of the “De Ruyter” who spent time on the Burma railway…..

    wowsers! royalty … seriously.
    and yes, Armadillo .. noted!
    smiley face due all round … I was in contact a few years ago with a Dutch naval aviator … Rudi Idzerda … who was on a MLD Catalina (16 y.o. at the time) that flew Java-Broome in March 42. I think Helfrich was on one of these flights?
    maybe I should get your details via Sinc, if such things are possible.

  51. oldsalt

    zk2a as a wheatbelt man you’d be aware of Wyalkatchem’s military history and its post war refugee camp which included many Poles and some Indonesian Dutch. It should be more widely known. The town also had its own song about a Vietnam vet called ‘The Boys from Wylie’ which I think was even recorded. Have you ever come across the lyrics?

  52. Peter from SA

    Actually thinking out loud I think Helrich evacuated via Ceylon …

  53. oldsalt

    Apart from the explorers, the earliest Dutch connection with WA was between West Timor and the Norwest. 1870-1950 some 20,ooo people who gathered in Kupang from the surrounding islands were brought out to pioneer the pearling industry from Shark Bay to Broome. It was the major source of income for the Dutch in Kupang and the major factor in the town becoming prominent. Fines had to be paid for each man repatriated after his 2 year contract had expired. At any given time there were 500 of them in Broome. The Dutch also provided labour for the Overland Telegraph and the guano industry. In 1946 a Dutch priest released from the Japanese concentration camp in Makassar bought a RAN auxilliary vessel and sailed it back to Indonesia, where it was used a a Mission ship until fairly recently.

    The tussle between the Netherlands, the U.S and Britain/WA for ownership of Ashmore is barely known and was only definitively settled in 1906.

  54. Armadillo

    Actually thinking out loud I think Helrich evacuated via Ceylon …

    Some were in Sri Lanka way before it was a transit point. It’s the old world.

  55. srr

    By Reuters at ABC, a classic example of that mess of contradictory, emotive propaganda. Full of holes, that as Tel keeps pointing out, no one bothers to question, let alone answer -

    Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte says Russia’s president has “one last chance” to show he is serious about helping rescuers recover the bodies of the victims of crashed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

    The attack on the plane has claimed the lives of 28 Australians and eight permanent Australian residents, who were among the 298 passengers and crew on board.

    Mr Rutte’s comments come amid reports pro-Russian rebels have taken 38 bodies from the site.

    Minutes after what he described as a “very intense” conversation with Russian leader Vladimir Putin, Mr Rutte said: “He has one last chance to show he means to help.”

    Mr Rutte said the leaders of Germany, Britain and Australia also shared his view.

    “I was shocked at the pictures of utterly disrespectful behaviour at this tragic spot,” he said, referring to allegations that bodies of the passengers, including 193 of his countrymen, were being allowed to decay at the scene.

    He [Putin] has one last chance to show he means to help
    Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte

    Dutch foreign minister Frans Timmermans said people in the Netherlands are “angry and furious” by news that bodies are being dragged around the site.

    After meeting with the Ukrainian president, Mr Timmermans said he wants to know who is responsible for shooting down the airliner.

    “We’re already in shock, but what the news we got today of bodies being dragged around, the site being treated improperly, has really created a shock in the Netherlands,” he said.

    “People are angry, are furious at what they hear. So my plea to you also, Mr President, is please help us bring our people back so that they can be buried in a decent way.”

    Dutch forensic experts left for the crash site on Saturday but continue to encounter difficulties in identifying and repatriating the bodies of the 193 Dutch citizens on the flight, he said.

    International monitors have now been allowed to visit more of the crash site, though gunmen still stopped them approaching some of the wreckage.

    In sometimes tense scenes with pro-Russian rebels clearly uncomfortable at having observers and the press present, a top official at the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe said access had improved since they arrived on Friday.

    “We have now had the possibility to see a bit more of this rather large scene. We have observed the situation here as it was presented to us,” said Alexander Hug, deputy chief monitor of the OSCE special monitoring mission to Ukraine.

    On Friday, a group of monitors were hampered in their work by “armed personnel who acted in a very impolite and unprofessional manner”.

    Securing the site and preserving evidence is crucial for investigators to try to piece together what, and who, caused the airliner to plunge into the steppe.

    Russia agrees international investigation should go ahead

    (it continues, with Russia and the US in furious agreement)

  56. Combine_Dave

    To extend your analogy Combine Dave, your evasive housemate provided this powerful weapon, didn’t really try to train you in it to prevent you from harming the neighbours, and has a history of confrontation with the coppers and used to be your landlord’s landlord.

    This quite likely the only plausible cause, at least until we see some hard evidence either way.

  57. Oh come on

    Tel, your argument could be smashed in, say, a half dozen sentences. Why not do it, then? Well, it’s simple. Being rational with the irrational is a fool’s errand. Regretfully, you’ve become a fully paid up member of the tinfoil hat brigade here.

  58. Token

    …those people are ethnic Russian and they are hated by the main body of the Ukraine people, if left to themselves they will be wiped out.

    Out of all your statements, that is the most dreadful and false of the lot. There is no evidence of this statement.

    The peoples in that region have co-existed for years, and will going forward if left to resolve things.

    There was a good interview on Ricochet with an analyst at Hoover – Yuri Yarim-Agaev- whose brother lives in Donetsk and who communicates with the family daily. He notes the city & all its citizens are now hostages to the insurgents.

    The fact is that infrastructure is being destroyed which is hurting people from all ethnic backgrounds for the benefit of a small few.

  59. .

    srr
    #1389403, posted on July 21, 2014 at 12:39 am
    By Reuters at ABC, a classic example of that mess of contradictory, emotive propaganda. Full of holes, that as Tel keeps pointing out, no one bothers to question, let alone answer -

    A Putin backer. A shill for dictatorship.

  60. Token

    A Putin backer. A shill for dictatorship.

    Is he is worse than the modern day Chamberlain’s who will trade anything for “peace in our time at any cost”, no matter the body count?

  61. Oh come on

    Out of all your statements, that is the most dreadful and false of the lot. There is no evidence of this statement.

    Quite right. It’s bizarre listening to the narrative-building, sensationalising talking heads speak of Ukraine as if it’s another Balkans. It is possible that with its current borders, Ukraine may not transpire to be a viable nation-state. Yes, there is a cultural cleavage that may be irreconcilable. But is it so bitter that it would drive Ukrainians to genocide? Palpable nonsense.

  62. Oh come on

    Well, some people have certainly blotted their copybooks on this thread.

  63. Driftforge

    A Putin backer. A shill for dictatorship.

    Better than a shill for democracy.

  64. Ripper

    Well, some people have certainly blotted their copybooks on this thread.

    Never mind , I will defend your right to.

  65. .

    I’m a shill for demarchy and rock ribbed republicanism.

  66. Oh come on

    Another Putin fanboi, Ripper?

  67. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1389800, posted on July 21, 2014 at 2:01 pm
    I’m a shill for demarchy and rock ribbed republicanism.

    Phht. Ivory tower latte-libertarianism.

  68. Ripper

    Another Putin fanboi, Ripper?

    Are you going to start calling me names? Not a fanboi at all , I am skeptical. I have been around long enough to not take anything that is reported (or not reported) these days by anybody at face value.

  69. .

    LOL Aristo

    The time spent redrafting policy, attending meetings, donating money and getting David L elected – yes it’s cold up here alone…

  70. oldsalt

    Putin and Petrov aside, who remembers Capt.Alex Solyanik, the charismatic Russian skipper of the Van Gogh who fished Karumba in 1968 before the Gulf became closed waters, inspiring equal amounts of fear, loathing and admiration and love for vodka from all who met him? He drove Gorton and Doug Anthony nuts, and was shot at by a Hungarian refugee.

    RAN and RAAF chased him, trawlers shot at him, sold prawns to him and were rescued by him. The Van Gogh’s hospital was better than Cairns’. Those who met him knew he was just happily going troppo after decades whaling in the ice. He’s now [dis]credited with having killed 25 thousand Humpbacks in just 2 years and having given the Russians their initial foothold in Antarctica.

    And all accomplished with his beautiful missus, Svetlana.

  71. Combine_Dave

    Better than a shill for democracy

    What the fk? Isnt this a libertarian blog?

  72. Aristogeiton

    Combine_Dave
    #1389990, posted on July 21, 2014 at 4:16 pm
    Better than a shill for democracy

    What the fk? Isnt this a libertarian blog?

    No, it’s a blog for cranky, racist, sectarian conservatives…

  73. Oh come on

    I am skeptical.

    There’s a difference between being skeptical and being willing to seriously entertain as a likely possibility an outlandishly improbable scenario supported by the flimsiest scrap of circumstantial evidence imaginable.

    If you’re the latter, then you too belong in the dunce’s corner wearing a pointy hat along with Tel and srr.

  74. Fisky

    If you’re the latter, then you too belong in the dunce’s corner wearing a pointy hat along with Tel and srr.

    Tel seriously believes the Ukrainian government conspired to bring down a civilian airliner. What a clown!

  75. Fisky

    Better than a shill for democracy.

    Driftforge, do you believe the Ukrainian government conspired to shoot down a civilian airliner?

  76. stackja

    Still some over-flying Ukraine. Many going around it.
    http://www.flightradar24.com/49.83,38.14/5

  77. Ripper

    The opposite of skeptical is gullible.

    Tel seriously believes the Ukrainian government conspired to bring down a civilian airliner.

    I didn’t read it that way, The ones attacking him “seriously believes the Russian government conspired to bring down a civilian airliner” and appear to have made their minds up already .

  78. Fisky

    Actually, no one of any consequence has accused the Russian government of acting in any way to deliberately bring down a civilian airliner. What they did do is invade and annex Ukrainian territory, turn Eastern Ukraine into a dangerous war zone, and provide surface-to-air missiles to drunken rebel commanders so that they could shoot down Ukrainian military planes. It was only a matter of time before they hit a civilian aircraft by mistake.

    Putinist conspiracy theorists on the other hand, believe that the EU and/or the Ukrainian government deliberately shot down MH17 in order to pin the blame on Putin, or acted in some devious way to push MH17 closer to the war zone where it would be exposed to danger. This conspiracy is alleged to be part of a plot to join NATO or in the more feverish versions of the conspiracy, commit genocide against Russians.

    And it is clear that you too are a Putinist conspiracy theory crank who believes the Ukrainian government brought down a civilian airliner.

  79. stackja

    Putin created the politics that led to this tragedy.
    Any other politician would have been unseated by now.

  80. Oh come on

    The ones attacking him “seriously believes the Russian government conspired to bring down a civilian airliner”

    Oh, for chuck steak. Do try to keep up.

  81. Combine_Dave

    Actually, no one of any consequence has accused the Russian government of acting in any way to deliberately bring down a civilian airliner. What they did do is invade and annex Ukrainian territory, turn Eastern Ukraine into a dangerous war zone, and provide surface-to-air missiles to drunken rebel commanders so that they could shoot down Ukrainian military planes. It was only a matter of time before they hit a civilian aircraft by mistake.

    Well the latest info seems to suggest that it was a Russian crew who did the firing, but I’d still suggest that it was a Ukrainian cargo plane they were attempting to bring down and that they hit MH17 by mistake. No side has a lot to gain from indiscriminately committing war crimes.

  82. Oh come on

    Fisky, I admire your perseverance. However, from what I’ve seen thus far, logic is wasted on these dummies.

  83. Leo G

    Well the latest info seems to suggest that it was a Russian crew who did the firing, but I’d still suggest that it was a Ukrainian cargo plane they were attempting to bring down and that they hit MH17 by mistake. No side has a lot to gain from indiscriminately committing war crimes.

    The latest reports and witness video suggest that the launcher was operating as a standard Buk Battery with a mobile Command Unit and a mobile Radar unit. If so, then that simple mistake explanation is invalidated. Much more likely is some kind of personnel command and control problem- one which must involve a deliberate command to target a plane flying at 32,000 ft, despite active and passive detection indicating that the target was a commercial aircraft.

  84. Combine_Dave

    The latest reports and witness video suggest that the launcher was operating as a standard Buk Battery with a mobile Command Unit and a mobile Radar unit. If so, then that simple mistake explanation is invalidated. Much more likely is some kind of personnel command and control problem- one which must involve a deliberate command to target a plane flying at 32,000 ft, despite active and passive detection indicating that the target was a commercial aircraft.

    If this is true than no wonder Abbott’s been going so hard on this.

  85. Driftforge

    Putin created the politics that led to this tragedy.
    Any other politician would have been unseated by now.

    Putin created the politics that led to this? In some sort of vacuum ? One that doesn’t include rank — even on East European terms — Ukranian corruption and EU / US malfeasance? Get your head out of Bambi’s nether regions.

    As to the unseating issue, well, yes, hierarchy has always had that advantage amongst others over democracy.

  86. Combine_Dave

    From the link above;

    But, Soviet-era air defense systems as the Buk are equipped with IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) systems meaning that they are able to detect if the system is targeting a civilian plane through its transponder code. Therefore, provided the operators are trained enough, they’ll be able to distinguish between a Ukrainian transport plane and a large airliner.

  87. Combine_Dave

    As to the unseating issue, well, yes, hierarchy has always had that advantage amongst others over democracy.

    So 1930s Germany had a better system of government than 2014 Australia?

  88. Driftforge

    Driftforge, do you believe the Ukrainian government conspired to shoot down a civilian airliner?

    Not at this point. My sense is it was all a monumental screw up. I don’t know who shot the plane down any more than most. I do know we have a leftard media that are as likely to be feeding us bullshit about international events as they do locally, so I’m in no rush to come to some inebriated judgement about what happened .

    I think the slavering anti-Russian warmongering is misguided. Yes, they are moving to a post democratic government; they have the advantage, like the Chinese, of being ahead of the curve in that. That’s a reason to pay attention, not one to go to war.

  89. Driftforge

    So 1930s Germany had a better system of government than 2014 Australia?

    Nope. 1914 Germany did. The left won that war.

    The democratic capitalism/socialism mix we have is great in the short term, but it consumes culture and is generally dysgenic in nature. It demands a people of conscience for it has none itself. It divides nations against themselves, and carries none of the integrity required of government structurally. It selects for office on the basis of popularity rather than capacity. Power is held widely and thus government naturally grows larger.

    It’s easy to think that just because a war was lost, that everything that was good about the losing side is lesser because of it. This is a great mistake.

  90. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    But, Soviet-era air defense systems as the Buk are equipped with IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) systems meaning that they are able to detect if the system is targeting a civilian plane through its transponder code. Therefore, provided the operators are trained enough, they’ll be able to distinguish between a Ukrainian transport plane and a large airliner.

    This is what I haven’t been able to understand. My understanding is that you are almost TOLD “This is a civilian aircraft” – specifically identified by flight number – yet they went ahead, and fired, anyway.

  91. Fisky

    Driftforge, I agree to some extent with your critique of democracy, but it’s not clear how we could go about designing an alternative system could be designed to enshrine a meritocracy (like in Singapore). Also, what mechanism do you envisage for a peaceful transfer of power?

  92. Fisky

    Sorry, my grammar is really fucked up today.

  93. Oh come on

    No one is advocating going to war against the Russians, Driftforge. I suggested sending a NATO force into Ukrainian territory, with the consent of the legitimate Ukrainian government in Kiev, to secure the crash site. If this leads to war, then that will be because Russia invaded a neighbouring country to attack that NATO force. Any which way you slice it, if there’s war, Russia will be responsible.

  94. .

    It was a mistake, but a careless one with no remorse, civilians were called “spies” etc.

    Putin should go. The West ought to force the issue. Going to war would be foolish. This doesn’t mean stern action cannot be taken.

    China lies about GDP figures, and Russia could develop much quicker. Tymoshenko was a brilliant finance minister. The Ukraine had excellent growth due to her policies. It did not take an anti democratic government to achieve this.

    Strong republican limits on direct democracy are not consistent with the military and party oligarchy in China or Putin’s cult of personality. Arguments about democracy becoming 51% of moochers are really out of context. Putin lured Ukrainians on the promise of MORE WELFARE…

  95. Driftforge

    Driftforge, I agree to some extent with your critique of democracy, but it’s not clear how we could go about designing an alternative system could be designed to enshrine a meritocracy (like in Singapore). Also, what mechanism do you envisage for a peaceful transfer of power?

    Yeah, transition is hard. The best way I can see forward is to create small areas – self-colonise if you will – that exist under alternative arrangements and see how they go. Once you have working examples, they can be replicated or improved upon.

  96. .

    Singapore does NOT have a meritocracy.

    Spare me the dinner party talk and hand me my bucket.

  97. Driftforge

    Fisky, there are people looking into the issue of what to move toward, starting from where we are and have been. It’s a different path from Russia and China, because our people and history are different. But the weaknesses of democracy are becoming more evident, and the social consequences greater as time goes on.

    Conservatism only seeks to retain that which we have, not to restore what we’ve lost… we’ve already lost too much for that to be a viable strategy.

  98. Fisky

    Singapore is a meritocracy. The most competent candidates possible are running the country.

  99. Driftforge

    Here’s a bucket. Now take it outside and come back once you’ve sobered up.

  100. Fisky

    So which Singaporeans would do a better job of running Singapore than Lee Kwan Yew in your view?

  101. Oh come on

    Singapore works because it isn’t really a country. It’s a corporation majority owned by the Lee family. Singaporean citizens are non-voting stockholders.

  102. It’s a corporation majority owned by the Lee family. Singaporean citizens are non-voting stockholders.

    It’s a sovereign nation. It’s not a democracy. That has it’s advantages.

  103. Look, Singapore is not without it’s problems. It’s been described as an ‘IQ Shredder‘ — taking in high intelligence people (average IQ in Singapore has risen to 127) from surrounding nations, but then combining that with lower reproduction rates such that the overall prevalence of high IQ individuals is dropping across the region.

    They are working on that, but it’s not a simple problem to redress in any socially acceptable manner.

  104. Leo G

    This is what I haven’t been able to understand. My understanding is that you are almost TOLD “This is a civilian aircraft” – specifically identified by flight number – yet they went ahead, and fired, anyway.

    The Buk launcher operating in isolation has only limited IFF and its radar doesn’t transmit the commercial aircraft transponder code (mode 3/A). It’s IFF can only detect “friendly” aircraft. The evidence suggests however that the launcher was not used in stand-alone mode.

  105. .

    Lee Kwan Yew predicted leisure and a high standard of living would ruin us. He was wrong.

    Anyone elected in Singapore, because of their high level of education and low welfare, would be meritocratic (until it changes). They’ve stuffed themselves because they have a unicameral Parliament with a executive that sits in Parliament. They chose a weakly republican constitution, and tried to make it work by being semi authoritarian.

    They don’t have a free press so what basis of merit was Yew really elected on? It does not require the curtailment of civil liberties to achieve a business friendly environment and high growth.

    The internet may make the low level of press freedom irrelevant. Note the GDP growth accelerated significantly after the old shithead let someone else become Prime Minister.

  106. Oh come on

    It’s nominally a sovereign nation. In effect, it’s a corporation. That’s why its SOE sector is profitable and competitive in the open market.

  107. .

    This has gone off topic. I have posted something interesting on the open thread about Thatcher, Fraser, Yew and Vietnamese refugees.

    Yew didn’t like competition.

  108. It’s nominally a sovereign nation. In effect, it’s a corporation. That’s why its SOE sector is profitable and competitive in the open market.

    The combination is not to be sneezed at. It combines the best aspects of monarchy with the advance associated with the corporation.

    Its a sovcorp.

  109. srr

    Ukrainian and EUkrainians are yet to sort their own differences, and the EUkrainians make it less likely by not even bothering to call the Ukrainian citizens they bomb, kill and burn alive, “spies”, “Russian sympathisers” is enough for the EUkraines to justify and even mock and celebrate the killing of their fellow citizens and once friends and neighbours – such as Ukrainian wives and children standing by their Russian decended husbands and fathers.

    THE Point is that not even all the current pro-independent of Russia, Ukrainian Ukraine’s are on the same side as their EU Installed Govt. THE Ukraine is still at war with itself, literally.

    Here, the Leftists talk about executing fellow Australians on the opposite political side. There, they’re still doing it.

    Here, the Leftists call Abbott “dangerous”. There, they have actual dangerous, very dangerous, political leaders, like this truly evil woman:

    Former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko urges the West to provide immediate military assistance to Ukraine, to cleanse the Donbass region.

    Earlier, former prime minister Tymoshenko called on to nuke Russia. She said that she would burn the entire Russian population of the Crimea. In the recording of the telephone conversation with Party of Regions deputy Nestor Shufrich, she speaks of the need to use nuclear weapons against “eight million Russians remaining in Ukraine.”

    A plane load of dead foreigners is nothing to a deranged witch like that, or her very many, like minded and fanatical supporters.

  110. .

    Will you shut up you idiot, posting ream after ream of unhinged bullshit?

    She was possibly the best leader they had. Like Lee Kwan Yew, but democratically elected.

  111. .

    srr getting his news from pravda – you fucking idiot.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Pravda.ru

    Here are some examples of “news” you could find on this site:

    The Moon landings are a hoax.
    Global warming is a hoax (in part this is admittedly true).
    HIV is a hoax.[2]
    Evolution is a hoax.[3][4]
    Russia created two HIV vaccines in 2004[5], and one more in 2006 from genetically modified tomatoes.[6]
    An alien base was filmed on the Moon.[7]
    Support for Russian scientists who claim that the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is actually a time machine.[8]
    That the FBI and CIA are fighting over access to a parallel world which allows time travel and therefore modification of our world.[9]
    America is ready to attack Russia.
    Nostradamus foresaw World War III in 2010.[10]
    Atlantis was discovered under Antarctica.
    Human and alien skulls were discovered on Mars.[11]
    Fishermen caught and ate an alien.[12]
    A young boy called Boris Kipriyanovich is an indigo child and the reincarnation of a Martian.[13]
    America corrupts everything it touches.[14][15]

  112. Like Lee Kwan Yew, but democratically elected.

    So nice when good things happen by chance.

  113. Oh come on

    There, they have actual dangerous, very dangerous, political leaders, like this truly evil woman:

    Hahahahaha no linky to the source of that quote, srr? Gee, I wonder why. Just fuck off and die and stop wasting everyone’s time, you ridiculous little genuflecting serf.

  114. Combine_Dave

    Its a sovcorp

    They build tractors that nobody wants but continue to do so due to government mandate…

    Also the tractors have no wheels and can not function.

    /Sovcorp

    If Australia was going to copy a corp model of government (and I dont recommend it, I’d simply prefer less government) at least go with the sino model.

    It may not the most optimal gov model in the world in terms of deliverying a high quality of life, longevity and economic growth but it works, and some what better than the busted arse Soviet model.

    Note the ranking for life expectancy when comparing third world China with mighty super power Russia;

    http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2013-10/24/content_30391004_2.htm

  115. Tel

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

    Malaysia Airlines has insisted its plane travelled on an “approved route” used by many other carriers.

    But Mr Mark said: “I can only tell you as a commercial pilot myself that if we had been routed that way, with what’s been going on in the Ukraine and the Russian border over the last few weeks and months, I would never have accepted that route.

    “I went into the FlightAware system, which we all use these days to see where airplanes started and where they tracked, and I looked back at the last two weeks’ worth of MH17 flights, which was this one.

    “And the flight today tracked very, very much further north into the Ukraine than the other previous flights did … there were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was.”

  116. .

    Oh come on
    #1390818, posted on July 21, 2014 at 11:32 pm
    There, they have actual dangerous, very dangerous, political leaders, like this truly evil woman:

    Hahahahaha no linky to the source of that quote, srr? Gee, I wonder why. Just fuck off and die and stop wasting everyone’s time, you ridiculous little genuflecting serf.

    Yep, Pravda.fucking.ru

  117. .

    Dave

    I think they meant sovereign corporation.

  118. Leo G

    “And the flight today tracked very, very much further north into the Ukraine than the other previous flights did … there were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was.”

    The Southern part of Ukraine (Simferopol) had been off-limits for more than three months by the FAA and by the European regulator, so the statement quoted above is difficult to accept. If international carriers were overflying Simferopol district then that would have been in breach of directives
    The reason for the restriction was the uncertainty about who was responsible for the airspace (Russia or the Ukraine?).
    Sections of the earlier FAA directive restricting Southern Ukraine and Crimea:-

    THIS SPECIAL FEDERAL AVIATION REGULATION (SFAR) APPLIES TO THE FOLLOWING PERSONS:

    1) ALL U.S. AIR CARRIERS AND U.S. COMMERCIAL OPERATORS;

    (2) ALL PERSONS EXERCISING THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRMAN CERTIFICATE ISSUED BY THE FAA, EXCEPT SUCH PERSONS OPERATING U.S. REGISTERED AIRCRAFT FOR A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER; AND

    (3) ALL OPERATORS OF U.S. REGISTERED CIVIL AIRCRAFT, EXCEPT WHERE THE OPERATOR OF SUCH AIRCRAFT IS A FOREIGN AIR CARRIER.
    …………………..
    …………………..
    (D), NO PERSON DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH (A) MAY CONDUCT FLIGHT OPERATIONS IN THE PORTION OF THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR WITHIN THE FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS: 454500N 0345800E-460900N 0360000E-460000N 0370000E-452700N 0364100E-452242N 0364100E-451824N 0363524E-451442N 0363542E-451218N END PART 1 OF 4. 23 APR 22:30 2014 UNTIL 1504270001. CREATED: 23 APR 22:16 2014

    FDC 4/7667 (A0012/14) – null AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE 0363200E-450418N 0363418E-445600N 0363700E-443100N 0364000E-424400N 0361600E-424700N 0340000E-424800N 0304500E-434100N 0303200E-441500N 0302400E-444600N 0300900E-455400N 0322500E-454900N 0324700E-455400N 0330600E-455600N 0332700E-455900N 0332900E-THEN ALONG THE CRIMEA BORDER TO 454500N 0345800E.

  119. Oh come on

    And the flight today tracked very, very much further north into the Ukraine than the other previous flights did … there were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was.”

    Yes, tinfoil hat-wearing crank, that’s the same point you made several days ago. It’s what I was referring to when I spoke of the flimsiest scrap of circumstantial evidence imaginable.

  120. Token

    Yep, Pravda.fucking.ru

    Think on it, for too many Russians their love of Russia is so brutally drummed in to a degree where the death of 80 or so children on the flight can’t shake them to reflect.

    What chance do we have to get through to such people?

  121. Combine_Dave

    I think they meant sovereign corporation.

    Still an evil thing regardless ;)

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