295 people – including 27 Australians – murdered

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 has been shot down over the Ukraine.

MH 17 1

The flight, MH 17, codeshare with KLM flight KL4103, from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur is a popular cheap route for Australians to travel back home from Europe and Britain. Social media has run images of an Australian passport allegedly found at the site crash.

Relatives of those who had boarded the Boeing 777 plane have started gathering at Schipol airport and have been corralled in a separate area of the airport.

Officials from Malaysian Airlines, speaking at Schipol airport in Amsterdam said their “gravest attention is to help the people who are suffering’’, adding that they will assist family members to visit the crash site in the coming days.

A charter plane will take the families to Kiev and from there the grieving relatives will have a difficult seven-hour road trip to the site.

A special phone number for family members of passengers on the downed flight has been set up by Malaysian Airlines in Amsterdam. It is +31 703487770.

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874 Responses to 295 people – including 27 Australians – murdered

  1. Token

    Somebody needs to link that Obama ~ Romney smackdown again. Obama had a real zinger there about Romney´s 80s foreign policy.

    I remember there was tittering at Romney when the professorial Obama dismissed the statement as coming from an age when wars were fought with bayonets and horses.

  2. Alfonso

    To correct some of the amateur enthusiast comment re Emirates.
    Emirates hasn’t flown near Ukraine for 3-4 months, a company notice to pilots established that SOP.
    Emirates doesn’t fly over Syria or even Libya or Israeli. It doesn’t fly into Peshwar Pakistan since the PIA hosty was shot through the fuselage on approach.

    To fly from Dubai to Beirut Emirates uses much additional fuel to route out into the Med, the final leg inbound is from the west.
    Emirates is a first world airline due to its predominantly first world pilots and flight department and lots of money that translates into new aircraft.

  3. Steve of Glasshouse

    harrys on the boat
    #1386192, posted on July 18, 2014 at 10:04 am
    CL brought it up in jest, but do we have a lefty retard blaming Abbott yet? Or at least screeching about his poor handling of the situation?

    I’ll give it a day before the left calls this tragedy Tony’s Tampa, as to how it got him off the media hook regarding the abolition of the carbon tax.

  4. thefrollickingmole

    A few things from this..

    At first glance and using that Occam chaps rule it is what it appears. Putin has “lost” some AAAAsystems and men to support the rebels.
    Those chaps have downed a few Ukrainian planes and most probably this one as well.

    BUT.
    Seriously heads should roll at Malaysia airlines and any other company still flying this airspace, plus the heads of whomever issues advice on threats to aircraft. It wasnt a man held AAA of limited range in possession of people willing to use them it was serious stuff.

    And thats not a pox on both houses thing either, the shooters were 100% responsible for the shot, but the dicks who kept flying there need some attitude adjustment.

    Anyone know much about who issues cautions or how binding advice like that is?

  5. Oh come on

    Too right, IT. The similarities between the two planes is uncanny. Both were MH flights and both were 777s. Clearly there’s a conspiracy afoot and the Ukrainians are responsible.

  6. Oh come on

    And thats not a pox on both houses thing either, the shooters were 100% responsible for the shot, but the dicks who kept flying there need some attitude adjustment.

    Not an unreasonable point. I expect the market will deal with Malaysian Airlines accordingly.

  7. Ros

    What Justin Bronk RUSI had to say (Sky) would support Oh’s argument. That the Buk crew would have detected the plane at about 85 kms distance, after which they would have had 5 to 10 minutes to acquire the plane, fire a missile and relocate. He says whereas mistaking it for a jet fighter extremely unlikely the transport planes they had been after could look similar. He suggests they might have been looking for another plane in the area and locked onto MH17 by mistake, or locked on believing it to be a transport.

    The radar, monopulse, explained to me as pulsing very little, blip and off, and possibly frequency wouldn’t trigger iff. That passenger planes wouldn’t be broadcasting all the time, clutter airwaves, so very possible they had no idea what they were locking on to, how much training would they have had.

    Fire, possibly 2 (usual practice and some witnesses declared they heard 2 explosions), and off. And one of those recorded sounded quite shocked I think. One thing for nasty boys with their toys to blow up the enemy. Coming across severely minced people and seeing children amongst the whole ones an entirely different matter.

    The ingratiating Jew remarks, disgusting

  8. Oh come on

    Thanks Ros, but I possess no expert knowledge of the weapons system in question, although the expert knowledge proffered in this thread by Zatara and others supports my argument, namely that it is foolish at this point to deny that the most obvious explanation for what happened was that Russian-backed separatists shot the plane down. There is no reason why the Ukrainians would have accidentally shot the plane down, and it is highly improbable that either side deliberately shot it down.

  9. Leo G

    A guess at what happened is that the Seperatists were laying in wait scanning in video mode to waylay another Ukrainian Antonov transport just as they did a few days ago. (To run their radar indiscriminately would have been a sure way to get plotted by people interested in such things and invite an anti-radiation missile at some point)

    A reasonable assumption.
    More likely though is that the Russians had detected a potential target using active and passive detection methods and confirmed the target as an Ukrainian military transport before alerting mobile Buk units to be readily to launch if the aircraft came within a certain range.
    The mobile unit somehow targeted a different aircraft.

  10. Oh come on

    An attendee of the AIDS convention in Melbourne asks “What if the cure for AIDS was on that plane?”

    Not an unreasonable question, considering the medical expertise that perished in the downing of MH17. Putin’s crime against humanity deepens.

  11. Oh come on

    Hm. I wonder what the fate of Malaysian Aeroflot will be.

  12. PeterM

    Nice post Zatara but a couple of errors with respect to the capabilities of the SAM system. One key one being that the missiles are radar guided and do not have an IR or laser tracking capability.

    One thing that was mentioned by someone was a query on the training. The Buk SAM units are not something that a hack is going to just pick up, point in a given direction and pull the trigger. Training on the units is required. Do the separatists have that training? If so, where did they get it from?

    Another piece of information regarding the other planes engaged in the preceding days was that they were apparently engaged by shoulder launched SAMs.

    Like I’ve said already, things are going to get murkier before we know anything more.

  13. Roger

    And thats not a pox on both houses thing either, the shooters were 100% responsible for the shot, but the dicks who kept flying there need some attitude adjustment.

    If reports of European radar tracking are correct the flight actually drifted further south than its flight plan indicated, which put it in the conflict zone near Donetsk. The flight plan had it travelling closer to the Russian border.

  14. Ros

    The drum has a round up of views, and along with others gives equal standing to possible but highly improbable scenarios like the Ukrainians did it.

    One of the bits of evidence I hold against the local thugs and their taskmasters and employers, and fellow thugs, the Russians, is their total disrespect for the dead and those grieving for them.

    No scenes of rescue workers swarming, of ambulances and hearses, of sad lines of covered bodies. No calls for international help from the criminal gangs running eastern Ukraine. Admittedly very big missile, but all the dead have rated so far is sticks with rags on them. They could ask the Russians but possibly even Putin reckons that would garnish him bad press. All that has been said is we will let you look, eventually. I wouldn’t put money on even that happening, and if so, look out for gang bosses randomly “arresting”.

    However in the meantime we can be sure every shred of evidence is being scraped up and removed, including probably bodies or bits of bodies, because they too would provide evidence of what happened.

  15. Roger

    Training on the units is required. Do the separatists have that training? If so, where did they get it from? The commander who initially claimed responsibility for shooting down what he identified as a Ukrainian military transport plane is a Russian national with Russian military training and combat experience going back to Chechnya in 1999, Peter. I’m not suggesting he was acting under Russian instructions – I think he is a loose cannon – but it is entirely conceivable that either he or those trained by him could operate a Russian supplied or captured Ukrainian Buk SAM launcher.

  16. Oh come on

    Seriously, Putin may be evil, but stupid enough to think it a good idea to blow a civilian plane full of many nationalities (and AIDS Experts), out of the sky, just to shove it up Ukraine?

    Putin would have to be 3 times more idiotic than Obama, to be behind this typically Islamic act of terror.

    Note srr subtly distancing himself from Putin, a man who he previously championed but he now regards as “evil”. srr, why do you think Putin’s Russia is Christianity’s bulwark against Islamic extremism?

  17. Fisky

    Seriously, Putin may be evil, but stupid enough to think it a good idea to blow a civilian plane full of many nationalities (and AIDS Experts), out of the sky, just to shove it up Ukraine?

    That isn’t actually the contention if you’ve been reading the thread.

  18. Oh come on

    All that has been said is we will let you look, eventually. I wouldn’t put money on even that happening, and if so, look out for gang bosses randomly “arresting”.

    Ukraine needs to be permitted to join NATO immediately, and substantial NATO forces should be sent into east Ukraine to secure the scene of the accident and eliminate the offensive capacity of any separatists nearby. This needs to happen now.

  19. hoppers

    So depressing that we now live in a world where people boast about murdering their fellow humans on social media, and emotion is expressed through a hashtag.

    When I was in the airline business, I worked in a department that was partly responsible for crisis management should we lose a wide bodied hull with fatalities. Beyond the Human cost, the implications for the business were that to happen were serious to say the least.

    To lose two in quick succession is unthinkable. My heart goes out to Malaysian Airlines. Everyone connected with that Enterprise will be devastated. And of course to the families of Passengers and Crew.

  20. thefrollickingmole

    Roger

    Thanks for that, wasnt aware it was a bit away from where it was meant to be.

    PeterM
    Thanks for that tit-bit as well, now the Airlines flying near there doesnt seem as reckless if all they thought was being used were SAMs.

    Oh come on
    I agree there should be action, but this has shades of 1939 all over it.

    Broke nations
    Despot with territorial ambitions
    Isolationist (or wuckfitted) America
    Mass instability in the world at large.

    Anything done need to be backed with a lot more than words, and there will be blood before the end.

  21. Leo G

    The ABC has relayed this video reportedly capturing the downed plane crash in Ukraine– as a fireball and smoke seen in the distance.

  22. Oh come on

    Hoppers, I don’t see why MAS as an organisation deserves any sympathy. It doesn’t deserve substantial opprobrium, but the fact that MAS planes were allowed to fly in that particular airspace whilst other airlines were more cautious and avoided the region does not reflect well on MAS.

  23. Peter from SA

    Another piece of information regarding the other planes engaged in the preceding days was that they were apparently engaged by shoulder launched SAMs.

    I understand the An-26 was shot down from an altitude of 6,000 metres. That would be beyond the range of shoulder-fired systems?

  24. Fisky

    Obama Chides Romney: ‘The 1980s Are Calling, They Want Their Foreign Policy Back’

    Absolutely pathetic. We need to hold a reunion of pro-Obama trolls (who all mysteriously vanished last year) at the Cat so they can explain what in particular they think Obama has got right since the election.

  25. Oh come on

    Anything done need to be backed with a lot more than words, and there will be blood before the end.

    If NATO powers temporarily occupied a small part of eastern Ukraine with the purpose of securing the site of the crash (and at the behest of the Ukrainian authorities in Kiev), do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?

  26. Leo G

    Hoppers, I don’t see why MAS as an organisation deserves any sympathy. It doesn’t deserve substantial opprobrium, but the fact that MAS planes were allowed to fly in that particular airspace whilst other airlines were more cautious and avoided the region does not reflect well on MAS.

    The aircraft which have been shown to have diverted (on the chart linked earlier on this blog) may have been cruising below 10,000 metre. If Airline policy had been the reason for the diversion, then surely the diversion would have avoided Ukraine entirely.

  27. Fisky

    If NATO powers temporarily occupied a small part of eastern Ukraine with the purpose of securing the site of the crash (and at the behest of the Ukrainian authorities in Kiev), do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?

    This is a very good idea. They would be in effect filling a vacuum and Putin would have no moral authority to do anything about it.

  28. Peter from SA

    do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?

    Not if the US was seriously involved with ground troops. But if it was some “peacekeeping” lite-force with troops from Denmark, Spain, Luxembourg, Hungary and Romania he’s probably not got a lot to lose. If Obama has any say in it you’ll get the second option.

  29. Fisky

    Ukraine needs to be permitted to join NATO immediately, and substantial NATO forces should be sent into east Ukraine to secure the scene of the accident and eliminate the offensive capacity of any separatists nearby. This needs to happen now.

    You can guarantee that Obama will do absolutely nothing. He’s a hopeless, useless President. At least Jimmy Carter wised up a little about the Soviets in his final year.

  30. Leo G

    This is a very good idea. They would be in effect filling a vacuum and Putin would have no moral authority to do anything about it.

    It doesn’t seem a good idea to me. It assumes that Russia doesn’t have a military presence in East Ukraine.
    There have been many published reports indicating a strong presence of Russian forces, even if they give the appearance of Ukrainian separatist irregulars.

  31. thefrollickingmole

    Oh come on

    Id bet on yes, but using his catspaws in the separatist movement against the “fascist invaders of the motherland” or some similar tripe. Mines and hit and run, not to mention logistic could make it extremely costly.

    Part of the reason for all the kerfuffle in the first place was the EU trying to “democratize” the Ukraine and pull it from Russias orbit.
    Machiavelli had a bit about unarmed prophets and their chances.

  32. Tom

    …do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?

    This is a very good idea. They would be in effect filling a vacuum and Putin would have no moral authority to do anything about it.

    Which one out of Cameron, Hollande, Merkel and Obama has the balls to defend principle and stand up to a thug like Putin? Merkel, maybe. The rest are fucking women.

  33. Fisky

    It doesn’t seem a good idea to me. It assumes that Russia doesn’t have a military presence in East Ukraine.

    Right now, at this moment, Putin has absolutely no wiggle room to back the separatists up at all. If the US/NATO push the issue NOW, he will have to remove all cover and cut them loose. And they will cut and run too, or else cop a very serious beating.

  34. Fisky

    Merkel, maybe.

    The Germans are the fucking worst of the lot. Have no confidence in that gang at all.

  35. Oh come on

    Well, it would need to be heavily supported by the US. If the Euros attempted to go it alone, whatever meagre force they managed to project into the region would quickly meet the same fate as the 6th Army in Stalingrad. If NATO stayed within the proposed ambit of securing and protecting the crash site and nothing more, Russia attacking that force would be extremely risky.

    I wonder if Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty can be invoked by the Netherlands?

  36. Oh come on

    It assumes that Russia doesn’t have a military presence in East Ukraine.

    No, although it does assume Russia wouldn’t use its military presence against a NATO force tasked with protecting the crash site.

  37. Derp

    All predicated on capability, will and intent.
    None of which are in supply.

    Europe will find a very good reason to do exactly what they have always done.
    This will be rationalised away.

  38. stackja

    Putin KGB strikes again.

  39. Zatara

    PeterM: I’ll not argue the guidance issues. You have your sources, I have mine, and we are both making assumptions regarding the system in play.

    However, that did make me consider another angle and that is that everyone seems to be assuming that one of the 5 land variants of the BUK system was used. I see no reason why that should be the case since that would have to be about the rarest SAM system in the Ukraine. In fact, I should think it much more likely that a more abundant, widely known, and very much off the shelf system such as the SA-6 or the SA-8 mobile systems would be the culprit. Either can be used as a stand alone, I think we could find their manuals on e-bay, and the former Soviet states are choc full of them.

    Regarding the training required to operate the systems; Once the transporter erector launcher is in position, missiles loaded, and system powered up a 12 year old could operate it. In fact most 12 year olds would be bored stiff with any of these Russian systems after mastering modern western video games.

  40. incoherent rambler

    The Euros will forgive the doers of this evil, as long as they buy some Euro carbon credits and commit to using sustainable technology in the battlefield.

  41. Fisky

    No, I’m sorry PeterM, but that is totally inadequate. I reminded you that your entry point onto this thread was to run the usual Putinist propaganda line about a “neo-nazi” takeover of the Ukraine, and then to imply ludicrously that Ukraine might have been behind the crash. Stop hiding behind a technical figleaf and admit that your purpose here is to push Putinist propaganda.

  42. 1735099

    Today we lost a wonderful pathologist from our local hospital.
    He and his wife were on board the ill-fated aircraft.
    They were killed by macho idiots who saw big and powerful weapons as means to an end.
    That end is neither here nor there, but the culture that allows it to grow and thrive is daily reflected here, in the promotion of violence as the solution to all disagreements.
    I doubt too many posting here understand the mentality of the psychopathic numbskulls who get their jollies from playing with these hi-tech toys.
    It doesn’t really matter where they got the missiles, or whatever pseudo nationalistic crap is offered as a rationalisation, the culture of violence and brute force permeates this blog.
    From scurrilous references to beta males, frightbats and using sexual taunts as abuse, it’s a rich vein on the Cat.
    Putin hiself is a clear and precise expression of it.
    He’d be right at home here.

  43. Fisky

    It doesn’t really matter where they got the missiles, or whatever pseudo nationalistic crap is offered as a rationalisation, the culture of violence and brute force permeates this blog.

    /Snort!

    Says the guy who claimed that Hamas and Hezbollah were democratic organisations.

  44. stackja

    KGB disinformation is still been spread.

  45. Oh come on

    All predicated on capability, will and intent.
    None of which are in supply.

    There is certainly the capability if all NATO assets could be utilised. Will and intent – at present, no one can say. We can speculate that the Euros and Obama would shrink from such action, and that wouldn’t be unreasonable going on their past form. However, if it becomes clear that the separatists are interfering with the crash site, European and American leaders, inspired by outraged electorates, just might discover some spine.

  46. Megan

    …but the dicks who kept flying there need some attitude adjustment

    A tad unfair. This particular area was not considered an active war zone. They were following all the guidelines for that particular flight path. SQ323 and 351 were on the same path at the pretty much the same time, as was a Lufthansa flight. As have hundreds of flights over the past months. No-one could have predicted the precise moment that the behaviour of the separatist morons who were given a gift wrapped missile launcher by an ex-KGB thug would cross into criminal stupidity territory. Although I’m pretty sure that Vlad must have had some kind of inkling it might not end well. Probably just sees it as collateral damage.

    Which one out of Cameron, Hollande, Merkel and Obama has the balls to defend principle and stand up to a thug like Putin? Merkel, maybe. The rest are fucking women.

    +1

  47. incoherent rambler

    Hang on there numbers, Tony Abbott is to blame, not the cat.

  48. 1735099

    Tony Abbott is to blame
    Unlikely – but he’s milking it for all it’s worth, as is Noddy Newman.

  49. srr

    An attendee of the AIDS convention in Melbourne asks “What if the cure for AIDS was on that plane?”

    Not an unreasonable question, considering the medical expertise that perished in the downing of MH17. Putin’s crime against humanity deepens.

    oh, I see – Christians are anti SSM, so it must be Christian Russians…oh sorry, I forgot, when I say Christian Russians, Dot declares I mean Putin, and every idiot parrots the verballing ….

    ….anyway, good to see how many are so keen to suddenly forget how many Sovereign Nations have been murderously screwed over by the EU & UN and their Global weapon of choice, the cult of Islam.

    My point is that no opinion blogger can know who did it, but it is highly likely to have involved a number of Nations playing the global chess game, rather than series of ‘lucky accidents’ that just happened to give a Ruskie rebel a successful pot-shot, which is what EUkraine propagandists are telling the world to unquestioningly believe.

  50. Oh come on

    Numbers again leverages the loss of almost 300 lives – including a prominent individual in his community – to smear his political opponents. What a tacky piece of filth Numbers is.

  51. Oh come on

    srr, you are hysterical. Go and sedate yourself.

  52. Fisky

    Numbers, you’ve got to stop pretending that you are opposed to taking human life – no supporter of Hamas or Hezbollah such as yourself could possibly have anything negative to say about “brute force”.

  53. 1735099

    <which one has the balls…….

    QED

  54. Fisky

    My point is that no opinion blogger can know who did it, but it is highly likely to have involved a number of Nations playing the global chess game, rather than series of ‘lucky accidents’ that just happened to give a Ruskie rebel a successful pot-shot, which is what EUkraine propagandists are telling the world to unquestioningly believe.

    Well said, parody troll.

  55. Fisky

    oh, I see – Christians are anti SSM, so it must be Christian Russians…oh sorry, I forgot, when I say Christian Russians, Dot declares I mean Putin, and every idiot parrots the verballing ….

    Look at this guy. He’s punch drunk. The Putinistas have taken so many blows to the head that all they can do is babble nonsense.

  56. 1735099

    supporter of Hamas or Hezbollah

    Show me where I have posted support for Hamas or Hezbollah.
    Verballing is habitual on this blog.
    Verballers should be banned.

  57. Carpe Jugulum

    Now confirmed 28 Oz dead.

  58. Fisky

    Unlikely – but he’s milking it for all it’s worth, as is Noddy Newman.

    Just incredible. 28 Australians have just been blasted out of the sky by Russian separatists, and Numbers thinks Abbott is “milking it”.

  59. Infidel Tiger

    Careful srr, it looks like a Russian crackpot has taken control of your Nokia 6210 and is typing strange comments.

  60. notafan

    Some people are a disgrace.
    My sister and mother spend the day worrying that four family members were on that flight until I convinced them they could not have been. That’s what happens when you don’t have exact details of people’s flights.
    What has the actions of a small number of people in the Ukraine got to with people on this blog?
    Can our PM not mourn the loss of 27 Australians?
    Or should he just go for a burger?

  61. Peter from SA

    PeterM: I’ll not argue the guidance issues. You have your sources, I have mine, and we are both making assumptions regarding the system in play.

    Zatara I think a version of your initial idea sounds credible, even with an earlier version. The idea is that the target is acquired visually, without the main radar system. The missile is fired in that general direction and then the radar from inside the missle itself tracks it onto the target, as it is closing on the target at very high speed.
    Normally, a long-range search radar in another vehicle is paired with the missile launcher. This is needed in a conventional war as aircraft are hard to detect. But an airliner flying overhead is easy to ID, so this is not really needed. Also, using the ground-based radar would instantly ID the system to the Ukranian military, and announce the fact that longer-range radar-guided missiles are being used. Because a Ukranian plane was shot down at altitude a few days ago suggests that the Ukranians had not yet worked out what was going on.

  62. Fisky

    Show me where I have posted support for Hamas or Hezbollah.

    Yes, you do support both Hamas and Hezbollah. When touting the merits of George Galloway, you said:

    He supports Hamas and Hezbollah because they are movements supported by democracy

  63. Shelley

    What is going to be left of the scene by the time the international (or whoever) investigators get there? Those bastards will clear the site of any incriminating evidence – and who knows what else? What was with the footage of all the passports – how is it that they were so intact, and where will they end up?

  64. stackja

    KGB hid Katyn 1940 until 1990. The gullible supported the KGB in blaming Katyn on the SS.

  65. Demosthenes

    Nokia 6210

    I admire the way you can put insults inside of insults, Mr Tiger.

  66. Fisky

    KGB hid Katyn 1940 until 1990. The gullible supported the KGB in blaming Katyn on the SS.

    A lot of Leftists were furiously insisting on Alger Hiss’s innocence even after the VENONA project was released to the public in the 1990s. Russian propaganda is always ludicrous, but it does seem to entrace a lot of feeble minds, and it sticks forever.

  67. 1735099

    So observing that Hamas and Hezbollah are democratic (and they are) and noting that George Galloway supports them is the same as “supporting Hamas and Hezbollah”?
    As I said – verballing……

  68. Oh come on

    Show me where I have posted support for Hamas or Hezbollah.

    Yes, you do support both Hamas and Hezbollah. When touting the merits of George Galloway, you said […]

    Oh dear. Numbers, you disgraceful old coot, apologise to Fisky immediately. And apologise to everyone else here for polluting this forum with your disgusting political posturing while the bodies of the victims of MH17 are still warm.

  69. Fisky

    Yes, calling murderous terrorist organisations “democratic” while noting with approval someone else’s support for them does constitute support in its own right. You are too cowardly to even own up to your position (and I note that you refuse to simply kill the issue by saying unequivocally “I denounce and oppose Hamas and Hezbollah”).

  70. Oh come on

    Describing fundamentally undemocratic organisations as democratic is supporting them.

  71. Mater

    Numbers, had sufficient ‘force’ been levelled at this missile battery, prior to last night, this may never have happened.
    Violence could also have prevented this tragedy.
    You are an idiot of the ocean-going variety.

  72. stackja

    Fisky
    #1386761, posted on July 18, 2014 at 5:46 pm

    VENONA revealed only some of the traitors. How many went undetected and helped the KGB. Maybe some are still helping the KGB.
    Other left-wing ‘heroes’ Julius and Ethel Rosenberg who passed on nuclear technology from the United States to USSR.

  73. Shelley

    What the hell ABC? Firstly Jeremy Fernandez in a conversation with some ‘expert’ asks if it really matters who shot the plane down? WTF? Then they have this ‘special report’ on a review of social media comments about the tragedy and proceed to read out a bunch of ‘tweets’! Shut this lot of loons down Malcolm.

  74. Oh come on

    srr, how’s your desperate rearguard action against the Ukrainians going? You know, the one in which your only allies are a bunch of full-blown tinfoil hatted conspiracy theorists?

  75. stackja

    Shelley
    #1386774, posted on July 18, 2014 at 5:55 pm

    KGB disinformation always seek to divert attention from the truth.

  76. thefrollickingmole

    1735099

    Beneath contempt you strange chap.

    Why you seem to equate ownership of a rifle for sporting/hunting/target shooting activities with rebel/terrorist separatists using high tech million dollar equipment supplied by a territorial aggressor is quite beyond me.

    From the chap who posts this…

    They were killed by macho idiots who saw big and powerful weapons as means to an end.

    then this
    From scurrilous references to beta males, frightbats and using sexual taunts as abuse, it’s a rich vein on the Cat.

    Your lack of consistency on the sexual abuse/demeaning terms is startling. Anyway I may have been a lady doing the firing, you old sexist you, I suppose you think their role is as babymakers and nurses eh?

  77. 1735099

    I denounce and oppose the violence used by Hamas and Hezbollah raining rockets indrisciminately on Israel.
    I denounce and oppose the violence used by Israel in using air strikes on the population of Gaza resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians.
    I denounce all and any violence used against civilians.
    I denounce all and any references to violence as a solution to conflict expressed on this blog.
    Clear?

  78. Leo G

    “It doesn’t really matter where they got the missiles, or whatever pseudo nationalistic crap is offered as a rationalisation, the culture of violence and brute force permeates this blog.
    From scurrilous references to beta males, frightbats and using sexual taunts as abuse, it’s a rich vein on the Cat. Putin hiself is a clear and precise expression of it. He’d be right at home here.”

    If Vlad had impaired self-awareness syndrome, he probably would not recognise those disabilities that are so obvious to others. His impairment would undoubtedly be most frustrating, even infuriating, for other Cat commenters, even those who felt obliged to love him.
    Sad Vlad, very sad.

  79. Fisky

    You “denounce” Hamas and Hezbollah firing rockets at Israel and then in the same breath “denounce” Israel’s defence against rocket attacks!

    Beyond parody.

  80. Shelley

    I’ve never commented on anything Numbers-oriented, but to him and all those responding, please desist and exercise some dignity in reverence of this murderous act.

  81. Oh come on

    Numbers has finally used up whatever goodwill should be attributed to him on account of his military service to the nation. At some point an individual behaves in a manner that is so beyond the pale that they eclipse whatever good they’ve done in their lives. As far as I’m concerned, Numbers passed that point today.

  82. candy

    Unlikely – but he’s milking it for all it’s worth, as is Noddy Newman.

    That seems to me a disturbing thing to say, 1735099.
    The PM and Mr Newman have to express anger and sadness because it helps the family and friends of the deceased to know leaders care, it helps them to know we all care about such a shocking event.
    I just don’t get where you’re coming from.

  83. Senile Old Guy

    Tony Abbott is to blame
    Unlikely – but he’s milking it for all it’s worth, as is Noddy Newman.

    Every time I start to think numbers might have redeeming qualities, he posts something like this.

    Utterly contemptible.

  84. Oh come on

    You don’t, Candy? It’s quite simple. He’s capitalising on this tragedy – using it as a vehicle to aim barbs at his political opponents. Whilst feigning grief. He’s never sunk so low on this blog.

  85. So.. tell me that by now the area over this space has been declared unsafe by whatever agency notes these things after the horse has bolted?

  86. thefrollickingmole

    Shelley

    I do ignore him, but hes acting so vile it would make a maggot spew.
    Hes a genuinely strange person

  87. Oh come on

    Utterly contemptible.

    And he’s so obtuse that he’s oblivious to the fact he’s doing exactly what he accuses Newman and Abbott of. Or perhaps he does realise and he’s just utterly mendacious. It has to be one or the other. I suspect the former.

  88. cynical1

    So observing that Hamas and Hezbollah are democratic

    You grubby little louse.

  89. oldsalt

    Re the previous Malaysian Airlines loss. Indonesian Intelligence has a strong suspicion that the MH370 loss was terrorism, a direct response to a call by Al Zawahiri to send a message to the West and its allies. They speculate that a new generation of JI has reorganised in Malaysia and has possibly already moved undetected into Indonesia. They suspect the plane was deliberately crashed where the black box would never be found, the perps didn’t claim responsibility because they wished to see tensions between Asian nations inflamed. Viewed in this context, Abbott’s early call and the subsequent search can be seen as a counter terrorism operation to deny the perps attack on Asian regional relations.

  90. Ros

    Numbers I think you are usually referred to as. Very sorry about the death of your friends. Some how it feels even worse when the horrors are personalised. For us reading you, not you. Your pain is not increased or decreased by us knowing. I also feel more gut wrenched by the report that 4 of the Australian dead were a grandfather and his 3 grandkids.

    I don’t agree with your psychopaths call though. If only. Have just read “No Mercy, True Stories of Disaster, Survival and Brutality”. If not familiar think of the nightmare of the Batavia, only they were butchered by a psychopath. Many other stories were about decent people who became monsters very quickly. The Lord Of The Flies was interwoven through the book. The major criticism of Golding’s story was that he seriously underestimated how short a time it took for people to turn into monsters. One shipwreck where they started murdering each other from the first night.

    It would be somehow reassuring if we could call these killers psychopaths and believe the cause of their monstrous behaviour was weapons and we would never succumb. If only.

  91. Leo G

    I’ve never commented on anything Numbers-oriented, but to him and all those responding, please desist and exercise some dignity in reverence of this murderous act.

    Shelley, many have been killed in the course of the Ukrainian conflict, why should we be dignified only because those murdered were targeted through mistaken identity and were non-Ukrainian.
    And reflect on the words of American pastor William Ward:

    “To bear defeat with dignity, to accept criticism with poise, to receive honors with humility — these are marks of maturity and graciousness.”

  92. Ros

    And numbers, it is not the fault of the catallaxians that your friends died. But the catallaxians could empathise.

  93. Oh come on

    I don’t see why it behooves anyone to be restrained in responding to the likely perpetrators of this heinous crime, or those who seek to capitalise on it. Angry denunciations of such lowly characters is hardly undignified.

  94. calli

    Unlikely – but he’s milking it for all it’s worth, as is Noddy Newman.

    Your dislike of these men is blinding you. I just heard Mark (how can we help?) Riley state that this would be a test for Abbott.

    Time to put the hatred on pause and mourn.

  95. Senile Old Guy

    My condolences to all affected, including numbers.

  96. Steve of Glasshouse

    Well done Numbers..didn’t take you long to drop into Tony Tampa mode.
    Don’t forget to bend over when you take a slash; that urethra on your forehead could cause a nasty
    case of the dribbles..

  97. Oh come on

    Steve, it took him no time at all. You’ll notice that he came out swinging against “Glibertarians” in his very first post on the thread, a time when people were first digesting the scale of the tragedy. He hijacked the tragedy straight away in order to have a pop at people he disagrees with; people totally unrelated to the aircraft’s demise.

  98. Shelley

    Time to put the hatred on pause and mourn

    +1

    Seems it is hard for some to do so.

  99. The generic attitude here today — a Ukrainian nationalist shot a plane down so screw Russia — really needs a little bit of stop and think.

    The tendency to take a terrible mistake and extrapolate it into an opportunity to attack some sovereign nation just because is just a touch daft.

    If its a plan to achieve such ends, all appropriate. But nobody I’ve noted thinks it is the outworking of some Russian plot. Just the outworking of some unvalidated notion that Russia should not have the capacity to be sovereign, even in its own territorial region.

  100. Roger

    So.. tell me that by now the area over this space has been declared unsafe by whatever agency notes these things after the horse has bolted?

    I believe so, Drift.
    The US FAA has actually had a no go order in place for American airlines since April.
    Also – and I’ve mentioned it before – the Malaysian flight reportedly drifted south from its flight plan to what was undoubtedly a more dangerous area over Donetsk.

  101. Shelley

    why should we be dignified only because those murdered were targeted through mistaken identity and were non-Ukrainian

    Because they were innocent people going about their own business. That does not take away from Ukranians or any other people anywhere in the world that get their lives cut short due to others’ self interest and crazy ideology.

    Just to clarify – I find Numbers comments re ‘milking it’ disgraceful – but feeding this venom only makes him worse. We all know where he stands on these things.

  102. Oh come on

    Just the outworking of some unvalidated notion that Russia should not have the capacity to be sovereign, even in its own territorial region.

    I don’t know anyone who has stated such a thing on this thread. It is not the sovereign right of a country to arm and martial an insurgency against the government of a neighbouring state for its own ends.

    ABC just passed on an Associated Press report that the separatists have taken possession of MH17’s black box flight recorder. If true, it’ll be interesting to see what they do with it. Are they going to act like a guilty party by making it disappear or an innocent party by handing it over to investigators?

  103. Hendrix

    Waleed Aly – fucking wanker. Whoever that large chick is on the project – 5 paws.

  104. Bear Necessities

    Today we lost a wonderful pathologist from our local hospital.
    He and his wife were on board the ill-fated aircraft.
    They were killed by macho idiots who saw big and powerful weapons as means to an end.
    That end is neither here nor there, but the culture that allows it to grow and thrive is daily reflected here, in the promotion of violence as the solution to all disagreements.
    I doubt too many posting here understand the mentality of the psychopathic numbskulls who get their jollies from playing with these hi-tech toys.
    It doesn’t really matter where they got the missiles, or whatever pseudo nationalistic crap is offered as a rationalisation, the culture of violence and brute force permeates this blog.
    From scurrilous references to beta males, frightbats and using sexual taunts as abuse, it’s a rich vein on the Cat.
    Putin hiself is a clear and precise expression of it.
    He’d be right at home here.

    Your right at home here too Numbers. Your shit stinks as well. 🙂

  105. Shelley

    Whoever that large chick is on the project – 5 paws.

    Hendrix – I can’t be arsed watching those Project wanks – but I am interested to know why you made this comment – what did she say?

  106. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    My husband (aka Da Hairy Ape) has just come in and told me that two months ago we flew, on an Emirate’s commercial night flight from Dubai to Moscow, pretty much on a similar route as taken by MH17. Donetsk was on the left. Now he mentions it, I do have some memory of him pointing it out.

    He is always very interested in our flight paths. I must take more notice.

  107. Bons

    The conspiracy theories aired on this thread at this time are obscene and unfitting for a supposedly high minded discussion group. Leave the Ludlum stuff for the ‘Project’ or other hairdresser focused productions.
    What is occupying my atrophied brain is how the ABC will turn this tragedy into an attack on Abbott.
    Sure, a few capitalist Westerners were killed under dubious circumstances, but we must not allow this ‘incident’ to divert us from the overriding issue – ‘vengeance for the scrapping of our Carbon Tax’.
    It took them two weeks to blame the West for 9/11; two hours to blame white males for Boston; what of this one?
    ” Abbott inflames international tensions by calling freedom-fighter mistake a crime!” Or something like that. Watch – it will happen.

  108. Ros

    Who is numbers please. Despite my empathy for his loss it is hard to respect claims such as hamas is democratic. Democracy requires elections, ie more than one. Why do you feel comfortable declaring hamas democratic numbers, and in particular is that a position you would be prepared to argue to women who were into equality at a social event for example?

    You do have some ability to make people cross, deliberate obviously. So, we should care for each other, or there is one way.

    You recovered from your grief fast, or easily.

  109. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Today we lost a wonderful pathologist from our local hospital.
    He and his wife were on board the ill-fated aircraft.
    They were killed by macho idiots who saw big and powerful weapons as means to an end.

    It is sad to hear this, Numbers. Stop right there though.
    Your bitterness at the Cat and its philosophies and opinions has nothing to do with this.
    You are very wrong so very often about this site; yet you still come here to spread bile.
    You shame yourself by extending your comments to your own obsessions at this time.
    Just offer the families your consolations here. Then depart to be more useful elsewhere.

  110. tomix

    Stackja @ 5.43pm:
    KGB hid Katyn 1940 until 1990. The gullible supported the KGB in blaming Katyn on the SS.

    Katyn Forest made sense from the soviet point of view. The Mh17 disaster makes no sense from the Russian point of view.

    So, it makes sense to look elsewhere. Cui bono?

  111. You don’t, Candy? It’s quite simple. He’s capitalising on this tragedy – using it as a vehicle to aim barbs at his political opponents.

    Derp
    #1386717, posted on July 18, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    All predicated on capability, will and intent.
    None of which are in supply.
    Europe will find a very good reason to do exactly what they have always done.
    This will be rationalised away.

    Fisky
    #1386701, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:58 pm
    Merkel, maybe.
    The Germans are the fucking worst of the lot. Have no confidence in that gang at all.
    Tom
    #1386692, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:55 pm
    …do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?
    This is a very good idea. They would be in effect filling a vacuum and Putin would have no moral authority to do anything about it.
    Which one out of Cameron, Hollande, Merkel and Obama has the balls to defend principle and stand up to a thug like Putin? Merkel, maybe. The rest are fucking women.
    #1386691, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:53 pm
    Oh come on
    Id bet on yes, but using his catspaws in the separatist movement against the “fascist invaders of the motherland” or some similar tripe. Mines and hit and run, not to mention logistic could make it extremely costly.
    Part of the reason for all the kerfuffle in the first place was the EU trying to “democratize” the Ukraine and pull it from Russias orbit.
    Machiavelli had a bit about unarmed prophets and their chances.

    The lack of self-awareness of the usual suspects here is mind-blowing.

  112. Hendrix

    I rarely watch the project – just happened to be on the channel. She said how good she felt hearing such a strident response from our government and how much pride she felt hearing the governments response. Of course, the rest of the leftist fucktards on the panel howled her down (including the sneering Aly) and she wavered for a moment, mumbling something about waiting for the facts and Iraq etc. but bounced back with a comment about how good it was to see some leadership.

  113. Infidel Tiger

    Aly will be secretly upset it wasn’t Muslims.

  114. Armadillo

    Heres a different ‘take’ on it.

    The timing for one thing, was eerie. The day before, Wednesday July 16, the United States had imposed a new round of sanctions on Russia; targeting access of the country’s defence, financial and energy industries to the US market.

    http://www.dawn.com/news/1120057/war-and-flight-why-planes-are-being-attacked-so-often

  115. Roger

    So, it makes sense to look elsewhere. Cui bono?
    We’ve been through the conspiracy theories earlier in the thread, tomix.
    The prima facie evidence is that pro-Russian militia misidentified the plane and shot it down with a SAM. Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, that’s the most reasonable position on presently known facts. That’s not to say Ukrainian authorities and other interested parties won’t seek to benefit from this event in the form of greater Western support for their experiment in Ukrainian nationalism, but that doesn’t necessarily add up to a conspiracy theory.

  116. Shelley

    Thanks Hendrix. Someone else posted upthread querying about how this will be turned into an Abbott666 moment, so it is pleasing to hear her express those sentiments about our Government.

  117. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    This particular area was not considered an active war zone. They were following all the guidelines for that particular flight path. SQ323 and 351 were on the same path at the pretty much the same time, as was a Lufthansa flight. As have hundreds of flights over the past months.

    Yes, and Lizzie B was up there too. Ya could have all lost me.
    That sounds like a good excuse for a drink. Post hoc.

  118. Roger

    This particular area was not considered an active war zone.
    Sorry, Lizzie B. copied this but i can’t find the original: one can only say “By whom?” They were clearly mistaken. The US FAA has considered it unsafe for months.

    They were following all the guidelines for that particular flight path.
    Apparently not; European radar shows they tracked further south than the flight plan indicated, bringing them close to Donetsk.

  119. Hendrix

    Shelley
    #1386880, posted on July 18, 2014 at 7:38 pm
    Thanks Hendrix. Someone else posted upthread querying about how this will be turned into an Abbott666 moment, so it is pleasing to hear her express those sentiments about our Government.

    She seemed genuine in her admiration of the government’s response. Being such a significant event, it may have been the first time she had listened to an Abbott or Bishop press conference uncut, and not filtered through the abc/fairfax hate lens.

  120. Mater

    Whoever that large chick is on the project – 5 paws.

    Hendrix, believe it was Meshel Laurie.
    Such a comment would be slightly unusual for her but credit were credit is due.

  121. Grigory M

    Yes, and Lizzie B was up there too. Ya could have all lost me.

    To be sure an’ all – you could have been kidnapped by aliens – or even worse, lost a day traversing the International Date Line from east to west in the Pacific Ocean.

  122. Tom

    I must take more notice.

    We’re all going to be taking more notice, Elizabeth. Ordinary people are going to be demanding details of their airline’s overflights policy before booking tickets.

    FFS, airlines including Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways and Malaysia Airlines had been using the busy Ukraine routing primarily to save fuel. In other words, these so-called premium brands actually had a policy to save money before considering their customers’ welfare.

    But, overarching that was the recklessness of the regulatory agencies: the UN’s International Civil Aviation Organisation and the EU’s Eurocontrol which oversees routing of commercial air traffic into and out of EU airspace. These fat-arsed bureaucratic seat-warmers should be forced to pick up the body parts from the field outside Donetsk, but, of course, they will squirm out of their criminal culpability.

    The reluctance of people to ever book another MH ticket is valid. If MH’s flight operations department was as strong as Qantas’s, it would be spending the extra few thousand dollars per trip on fuel to avoid the Ukrainian war zone. QF never had that dilemma as the great circle route between DXB and LHR is about 200 kms south of the Ukraine border over central Romania, but, as I understand it, QF flight ops had taken a decision several months ago to avoid Ukraine if there was a possibility of being vectored further north by ATC.

  123. egg_

    Such a comment would be slightly unusual for her but credit were credit is due.

    +1

    Getting Conservative in her middle age?

  124. candy

    You don’t, Candy? It’s quite simple
    How about we leave it be, 173055? There’s people suffering from such a shocking tragedy out of the blue. I don’t know how family and others can bear it, it’s just so awful, and we even see pictures of ‘articles’ etc on the Internet of the scene on the ground, etc.

  125. Leo G

    The prima facie evidence is that pro-Russian militia misidentified the plane and shot it down with a SAM. Absent compelling evidence to the contrary, that’s the most reasonable position on presently known facts.

    The prima-facie evidence is that a Russian-Intelligence officer ordered the missile attack, without regard for the possibility that commercial aircraft might have being flying along one of the world’s busiest flight corridors and one that had not been closed by the relevant international regulator.
    How a spook has the expertise to train Separatist irregulars in the operation of a complex missile system has not been questioned.
    Nor has it been explained why the Russions might permit separatists to operate such a system in close proximity to Russian aircraft ops without Russian authorisation, control or supervision.
    It will be very convenient for NATO and Russia publicly to point the finger at separatists who are completely independent of Russian authority (while privately leveraging the Russians to accept a compromise solution to the conflict).

  126. Fisky

    Katyn Forest made sense from the soviet point of view. The Mh17 disaster makes no sense from the Russian point of view.

    That’s why no serious person has ever claimed that Russia deliberately targeted a civilian airliner. Have you been following this at all? (no, didn’t think so)

  127. Fisky

    Aly will be secretly upset it wasn’t Muslims.

    He has done extremely well professionally thanks to Muslim terrorism. Without Muslim terrorism he’d have been lucky to land a tutoring gig at Melbourne Uni.

  128. boy on a bike

    Why didn’t the TSA prevent this?
    /sarc

  129. Shelley

    I am alarmed that having seen much of the coverage for much of the day (even if only in the background), that there has been nothing further from the POTUS. Nothing. Zilch. Even by his low standards and of what we have come to expect, this surprises me considerably.

  130. Zaphod

    That’s why no serious person has ever claimed that Russia deliberately targeted a civilian airliner. Have you been following this at all? (no, didn’t think so)

    So what do you think is the relevance of the “Ronald Reagan on KAL 007 ” thread ?

  131. Fisky

    I am alarmed that having seen much of the coverage for much of the day (even if only in the background), that there has been nothing further from the POTUS.

    I had noticed that. He’s amazing, isn’t he? A complete empty suit.

    Great choice in 2012, Americans.

  132. Fisky

    So what do you think is the relevance of the “Ronald Reagan on KAL 007 ” thread ?

    To contrast how a serious President deals with a civilian airline attack with a completely unserious President.

    Another Putinist apologist I take it?

  133. hoppers

    Roger, are you able to point me in the direction of the flight track info. Thanks.

  134. Roger

    The prima-facie evidence is that a Russian-Intelligence officer ordered the missile attack, without regard for the possibility that commercial aircraft might have being flying along one of the world’s busiest flight corridors and one that had not been closed by the relevant international regulator.

    Absent a copy of the order in some verifiable form we only have the “known knowns”.

  135. hoppers

    Roger, found it. Seems they were actually well North of the usual flight path.

  136. Tom

    Another Putinist apologist I take it?

    How come there are two trolls that call themselves “Zaphod”? There was a ripper at Sinc’s post at The Dumb yesterday, who was trolling the zombies like a trooper.

    The one we get here is a whiny beta fucktard.

  137. Shelley

    Guess it was night time in the USA and POTUS does need his sleep.

  138. jupes

    I denounce and oppose the violence used by Hamas and Hezbollah raining rockets indrisciminately on Israel.
    I denounce and oppose the violence used by Israel in using air strikes on the population of Gaza resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians.
    I denounce all and any violence used against civilians.
    I denounce all and any references to violence as a solution to conflict expressed on this blog.
    Clear?

    No.

    How should Israel respond to rocket attacks from Hamas?

  139. Roger

    Roger, are you able to point me in the direction of the flight track info. Thanks.
    UK’s Daily Mail had a graphic illustrating the flight path and the actual path according to radar tracking, hoppers. I can’t find it now but I posted the link upthread twice.

  140. JC

    How should Israel respond to rocket attacks from Hamas?

    That’s easy, Keep clearing the land to so the rockets don’t pose a threat to the people.

  141. tomix

    Fisky
    That’s why no serious person has ever claimed that Russia deliberately targeted a civilian airliner.
    Then
    Another Putinist apologist I take it?

    So, what’s your problem with Putin? Or, to put it another way, who or what are you shilling for now?

  142. 1735099

    how should Israel respond to rocket attacks from Hamas

    Clearly, differently from what they have done historically.
    It doesn’t work.
    In fact, it seems clear that the military response, and the killing of civilians that results, simply radicalizes more of the population.
    To use a bad pun, it ain’t rocket science.
    Time to try another way.

  143. Notafan

    It amazes me that so many people think the Israelis should just put up with as many rockets as Hamas choose to fire at them and not defend themselves.
    Should they just wait until Hamas have nukes?
    At the same time the Palestinians are so poor but Hamas can purchase perhaps 60,000 rockets to fire at Israel.
    Hamas don’t care about the Palestinian people, they just want to kill Jews.

  144. Infidel Tiger

    I am alarmed that having seen much of the coverage for much of the day (even if only in the background), that there has been nothing further from the POTUS.

    Give him a break. Obama is semi-retired.

  145. Roger

    Seems they were actually well North of the usual flight path.
    North from the usual course, but for some reason the projected flight path this time was reportedly across Poland, Belarus and then virtually following the Russian border, but the plane tracked south of this into the conflict area. Either way it’s not good for Malaysia Airlines.

  146. sdfc

    It amazes me that so many people think the Palestinians have no right to a viable independent state.

  147. Infidel Tiger

    Tomix, is your contention that this is a plot by pro vaccination LDPers to enmesh Ukraine in the EU to keep the Port Arthur massacre truth under wraps?

    If so, I agree.

  148. hoppers

    Roger, Agreed. Here’s some interesting stuff. Source, unverified, so no comment.

  149. Infidel Tiger

    It amazes me that so many people think the Palestinians have no right to a viable independent state.

    I wouldn’t give them a blunt knife. Complete barbarians and savages.

  150. Zatara

    How a spook has the expertise to train Separatist irregulars in the operation of a complex missile system has not been questioned.

    No reason it should be questioned because there is no reason that anyone needed any more training.

    Ukraine has Armed Forces. They had them before this crisis, they have them now. So do the separatists. Those forces include Air Defense Regiments who operate the S-200, S-300 and BUK1 anti-aircraft missile systems.

    There are Separatist irregulars who used to be Ukrainian Air Defense Regiment regulars and are therefore fully trained on those weapons systems.

  151. Fisky

    So, what’s your problem with Putin?

    Where to begin? Let’s just forget about his entire record in office of fraud and repression and drill down on the last six months. He responded to the unseating of his Communist puppet regime in the Ukraine first by invading and then annexing Ukrainian territory (Crimea) and then by supporting a deadly military insurrection across Eastern Ukraine, killing scores of Ukrainians and making Ukrainian airspace even more dangerous than over Iraq. The weapons which he provided to his Putinista militias have now been used to murder hundreds of civilians including dozens of Australians.

    Why do you support Putin? Is it his military support for Iran that takes your fancy in particular?

  152. sdfc

    I wouldn’t give them a blunt knife. Complete barbarians and savages.

    That a conservative should have that attitude is no surprise.

  153. Ros

    Roger, your claim US FAA has considered it unsafe for months. What they actually were on about. They banned US carriers from flying over part of the disputed area between Russia and Ukraine for safety reasons, BUT NOT area where MA17 flew, rather Crimean Peninsula. Again it was about AIR TRAFFIC control instructions. On the grounds that civil aircraft could be misidentified and be intercepted by air defence forces.
    Malaysian flight shot down 200 miles from restricted zone, go look at FAA map.
    This superstitious notion that someone must be responsible, in this case Malaysian Airlines, is crazy. Malaysian has been subject to two most awful events, coincidence. It happens.
    Expert after expert has tried to get across idea that there was no wrong in Malaysian’s decision. They were one among many who continued on this flight path. That we fly across many at war zones, comfortable and unaware. One pointed out the PM of India flew there just an hour before Malaysian. Singapore also was just 15 miles behind or ahead.
    The ABC is gleefully claiming again and again that it is about “cost cutting”. Well they would, flying should be too expensive for the peasants.
    What happened was an event of very very low probability. That an outlier event occurred says nothing about the probability that it would happen, or will happen again.
    LAST YEAR i flew across the ME, beside myself. Because i am a neurotic flyer, made my husband keep an eye on the flight path and advise me when we were across. My behaviour was irrational, so is this belief that Malaysian should have known. Like many disasters it was a confluence of many factors, the most important being they were the closest flight when the idiots decided to shoot. How many who are now declaring Malaysian was negligent have considered who might be sitting below planning mayhem. Probably only irrationals like me. How is this event different to planes flying across volcanic regions that suddenly erupt. WIll you all now have a list of possible, though improbable events above which you will not fly.
    The bastards win when folk abandon reason and seek to allocate blame for bad events delivered to us by an indifferent universe. Or shit happens

  154. Stephan

    I wouldn’t give them a blunt knife. Complete barbarians and savages.

    How very retarded. That’s like me saying ‘I wouldn’t piss on a Queenslander if they were on fire, complete slack-jawed reprobates’, because they elected frogface prick as the premier.

  155. wreckage

    The Palestinians have rejected state-hood at least three times. They don’t want a state.

  156. tomix

    Fisky:
    Why do you support Putin? Is it his military support for Iran that takes your fancy in particular?
    Okay, so we’re agreed that Putin bears no more responsibility for Mh17 than Ronald Reagan bore for the shooting down of the Iranian airliner by the USS Vincennes?

  157. Mater

    Clearly, differently from what they have done historically.
    It doesn’t work.
    In fact, it seems clear that the military response, and the killing of civilians that results, simply radicalizes more of the population.
    To use a bad pun, it ain’t rocket science.
    Time to try another way.

    In the absence of a viable suggestion from Numbers, I will outline an approach based on his ‘thoughts’.
    By the numbers (pardon the pun):
    1. Put weapons down
    2. Put hands up
    3. Die in a loud, grotesque manner

  158. C.L.

    Not sure how the ALP can act all ashen-faced and solemn.

    Their policies willfully and predictably killed 1200 people at sea.

    Quite literally, they may as well have sunk the boats with heat-seeking missiles from Canberra.

    They did this because they hated Howard and wanted to rub his face in the ruins of the Pacific Solution.

    No other reason.

    At least the Ukrainian separatists have the excuse of being trigger-happy jugheads in a war zone.

  159. tomix

    Infidel Tiger @ 8.46pm:
    Tomix, is your contention that this is a plot by pro vaccination LDPers to enmesh Ukraine in the EU to keep the Port Arthur massacre truth under wraps?

    Have you forgotten the unpasteurised milk?

  160. sdfc

    The Israelis simply won’t vacate the West Bank. Their shit stinks as much as the Palestinians.

  161. Leo G

    Roger, found it. Seems they were actually well North of the usual flight path.

    A New York Times report clarifies the situation quite well:-

    “The Malaysian plane was flying on an active route used by commercial airlines every day. Hours before the crash, Russia closed four airways near the Ukrainian border, including one that was a continuation of Flight 17’s route.”

    Maps of the Crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17

  162. Viva

    Can our PM not mourn the loss of 27 Australians?
    Or should he just go for a burger?

    Or maybe a fund raiser….

  163. Stephan

    The Israelis simply won’t vacate the West Bank. Their shit stinks as much as the Palestinians.

    Exactly. Yet try and bring that up without being called ‘anti-Semitic’. It’s the right’s own little politically-correct censorship device.

  164. jupes

    Time to try another way.

    Okay then, what exactly?

    Hamas is raining rockets on Israel. How should Israel respond?

  165. Shelley

    I thought I would look at Meshel Laurie’s twitter (I was pretty sure she would have one) to see if there was any comment to what she said on The Project. She wrote:

    I’m sure my father’s had another heart attack if he saw me say I was impressed by Tony Abbott today. I’m sure it won’t happen again.

    And one of her followers actually agreed and wrote:

    even a broken clock is right twice a day 😉 ..I do agree tho M. I’ll tweet him 2 say “nice, first honourable act as PM” 😉

    Sheesh.

  166. jupes

    The Israelis simply won’t vacate the West Bank. Their shit stinks as much as the Palestinians.

    Israel vacated Southern Lebanon. They were attacked by Hezbollah with thousands of rockets.

    Israel vacated Gaza. They were attacked by Hamas with thousands of rockets.

    So now you reckon Israel should vacate the West Bank.

    Why do you hate Jews sdfc?

  167. .

    How a spook has the expertise to train Separatist irregulars in the operation of a complex missile system has not been questioned.

    Um no.

    The GRU has its own Spetsnaz forces.

  168. jupes

    Sheesh.

    They are resisting as hard as possible, but the penny is dropping.

    It’s good to witness people maturing.

  169. Notafan

    If Israel vacated the West Bank would Hamas stop sending rockets?
    No, they won’t stop until Israel ceases to exist.

  170. hoppers

    Exactly. Yet try and bring that up without being called ‘anti-Semitic’. It’s the right’s own little politically-correct censorship device.

    Stephan, The Right don’t do Political Correctness.

  171. Stephan

    If Israel vacated the West Bank would Hamas stop sending rockets?
    No, they won’t stop until Israel ceases to exist.

    How do they know until they try? Meantime, Iron Dome is taking care of their problems pretty well rocket-wise.

  172. sdfc

    I don’t hate the Israelis. I just don’t support ethnic cleansing or shoving people onto reservations.

    Which one do you favour Jupes?

  173. cynical1

    Clearly, differently from what they have done historically.
    It doesn’t work.
    In fact, it seems clear that the military response, and the killing of civilians that results, simply radicalizes more of the population.
    To use a bad pun, it ain’t rocket science.
    Time to try another way.

    Perhaps they should turn the place into a carpark.

    Worked in Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre

    Rarely mentioned by Arabs though.

    No Jews to blame….

  174. jupes

    It’s the right’s own little politically-correct censorship device.

    To claim that the Palestinians are morally equivalent to Israel is so far removed from reality that the only explanation is anti-Semetism.

  175. .

    Stephan
    #1386969, posted on July 18, 2014 at 9:10 pm
    The Israelis simply won’t vacate the West Bank. Their shit stinks as much as the Palestinians.

    Exactly. Yet try and bring that up without being called ‘anti-Semitic’. It’s the right’s own little politically-correct censorship device.

    No. The moral equivalence is wrong.

    Please. This is off topic.

  176. .

    tomix
    #1386958, posted on July 18, 2014 at 9:01 pm
    Fisky:
    Why do you support Putin? Is it his military support for Iran that takes your fancy in particular?
    Okay, so we’re agreed that Putin bears no more responsibility for Mh17 than Ronald Reagan bore for the shooting down of the Iranian airliner by the USS Vincennes?

    Putin bears all of the responsibility and should be hanged.

  177. C.L.

    Anyone who backs Palestinian “self-determination” is, ipso facto, an anti-semite.

    That’s because almost to a man the Palestinians are doctrinally committed to the extermination of Israel. In fact, the notion (not nation) of “Palestine” has no other purpose.

    We all know this.

  178. Leo G

    “There are Separatist irregulars who used to be Ukrainian Air Defense Regiment regulars and are therefore fully trained on those weapons systems.” – Zatara

    Possibly- but not according to the Russians or US intelligence sources:-

    As Russia and Ukraine trade blame over the apparent shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, they appear to agree on one thing: the type of Soviet-era missile that brought it down.
    But if an SA-11 Buk missile, known as ‘Gadfly’ in NATO, struck the aircraft and killed all 298 on board, that won’t solve the mystery of who did it: Russia, Ukraine and Russian-speaking rebels have all claimed the missile in their arsenals.
    Circumstantial evidence points increasingly to the separatists, Western officials and analysts say, pointing to rebel claims of shooting at Ukrainian military aircraft at approximately the same time.
    The rebels were believed to have used a similar system to shoot down a Ukrainian Antonov AN-26 aircraft on Monday.
    Whether the 1970s-era radar-guided missiles would have been supplied by Russia or captured from Ukrainian forces is uncertain.
    “Even if we know the weapon type, it is impossible now to say where it came from,” said Samuel Charap, a former US State Department official and now a fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Washington.
    On June 29, Russian newswire ITAR-TASS quoted separatists in Donetsk in eastern Ukraine, not far from where the plane went down, as saying they had seized control of a missile defense army unit equipped with the Buk system.
    Ukrainian Interior Ministry official Anton Gerashchenko said after the crash the Buk anti-aircraft system was “kindly given to the separatists by (Russian President Vladimir) Putin.”
    Moscow, however, suggests Ukraine was responsible.
    RIA Novosti news agency in Moscow quoted a source as saying a Ukrainian army battalion had a Buk system deployed near the city of Donetsk a day before the crash and the missile likely came from that system. The source said the anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine do not have the Buk system.
    If rebels were at the helm of the Buk system, they were not likely well trained in its use and may have simply misidentified it as a Ukraine military plane, Charap said.”
    – Reuters Washington, July 18, 2014

  179. Zatara

    “It amazes me that so many people think the Palestinians have no right to a viable independent state.”

    Yes, particularly the Jordanians, who stripped the West Bank Palestinian people of Jordanian citizenship in order to keep that strawman alive as a reason to screw with Israel.

    Little known fact, over half of the Jordanian population is Palestinian. Consider that Jordan and Israel were created in 1946 and 1948 respectively, then look up the “West Bank” and read a little history.

    Israel didn’t screw the Palestinians, Jordan did, and does.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

  180. Tintarella di Luna

    FFS who left the gate open? The Squirrels are loose, a whole scurry of ’em their droppings are everywhere.

  181. Zatara

    “There are Separatist irregulars who used to be Ukrainian Air Defense Regiment regulars and are therefore fully trained on those weapons systems.” – Zatara

    Possibly- but not according to the Russians or US intelligence sources:-

    No. Not Russian or US intelligence sources, one guy who works at a think tank that a Reuters reporter got a quote from.

    Samuel Charap, a former US State Department official and now a fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in Washington…….. “If rebels were at the helm of the Buk system, they were not likely well trained in its use and may have simply misidentified it as a Ukraine military plane, Charap said.”

  182. Leo G

    No. Not Russian or US intelligence sources, one guy who works at a think tank that a Reuters reporter got a quote from.

    Charap was the Washington source, not the RIA Novosti (Moscow source).
    The Russian source claimed the separatists did not have the Buk system. Charap implied they may have the system as believed by Western officials and analysts but they would not have been well-trained.

    RIA Novosti news agency in Moscow quoted a source as saying a Ukrainian army battalion had a Buk system deployed near the city of Donetsk a day before the crash and the missile likely came from that system. The source said the anti-government forces in eastern Ukraine do not have the Buk system.

  183. jupes

    How do they know until they try?

    Experience Stephan.

    For a short history lesson see my post at 9.15.

  184. sdfc
    #1386944, posted on July 18, 2014 at 8:46 pm
    It amazes me that so many people think the Palestinians have no right to a viable independent state.

    Not if they keep firing missiles at it.

  185. Tom

    FFS who left the gate open? The Squirrels are loose, a whole scurry of ‘em their droppings are everywhere.

    I love it how you can see cute fantasy animals instead of the reality, Tinta.

    They’re actually diseased rats.

    PS: having lived in the States, I love squirrels!

  186. jupes

    Another question:

    Why didn’t the ‘Palestinians’ fight for their own state from 1948 to 1967?

  187. Hendrix

    Fisky
    #1386921, posted on July 18, 2014 at 8:20 pm
    I am alarmed that having seen much of the coverage for much of the day (even if only in the background), that there has been nothing further from the POTUS.

    I had noticed that. He’s amazing, isn’t he? A complete empty suit.

    Great choice in 2012, Americans.

    That Eastwood skit that he was caned for seems more and more apt. Not to mention Romney.

  188. Zatara

    The Russian source claimed the separatists did not have the Buk system.

    First, what did you expect a Russian source to say? That they did it, that the separatists did it, or that the Ukrainians did it? Do you think Putin had any influence on what they claimed?

    Second, nobody has proved it was a BUK that took down the airliner in the first place. An OSA or SA-6 would do just fine. People are stuck on the BUK because that’s where they are being led by the spinners.

  189. C.L.

    Tip for Vlad Putin’s chief adviser …

    A YouTube video.

    Blame that.

    Guaranteed.

  190. nerblnob

    The ABC is gleefully claiming again and again that it is about “cost cutting”. Well they would, flying should be too expensive for the peasants.

    I can’t for the life of me think why six-figure salary munchers in a $1bn+ a year taxpayer-funded sheltered workshop would be biased against cost-cutting, can you?

    I and almost anyone who’s travelled frequently between Europe and Australia will have overflown that area. Relatives of mine are booked on that very flight number in the near future.

    Russia – Putin – will almost certainly be trying to “own” the release of evidence and control the flow of propaganda now, and the perpetrators will be “disappeared” in some way.

  191. Fisky

    I note with disappointment that a thread commemorating the murder of 28 Australians has become a flytrap for anti-semites, Putinists and Reagan-haters.

  192. Infidel Tiger

    Heard an interview with a Ukrainian-Australian photo journalist who is on the scene. He says it is a complete clusterfuck. Bodies are being tagged with bits of ribbon tied onto twigs, debris is being carted off, no grid search being conducted, no one seemingly in charge and no one with a fucking clue allowed in.

    He was a trained disaster recovery expert and said it was the worst thing he’d ever seen. He spent a long time looking for the black boxes and said they were not located.

  193. Ros

    So Russia cancelled four flight paths. My conspiracy cells working overtime. Argument and struggle over air traffic control has been very dinkum and serious, and what FAA, Europe and UN have been warning about, not might get shot down.
    The fight over air traffic control, Russia, Simferopol Black Sea region, Ukraine won. UN body ICAO, insisted right to provide services belonged exclusively to Ukraine. About 600 flights per day. Then there is the 300 flights per day over Ukraine. Not only has that revenue been wiped out by shooting down plane with Buk, Emirates and British Airways for example cancelled flights to Kiev.
    So, what if Russia gave the militants buks to shoot down plane, demonstrating unsafe to fly over Ukraine at any height. Just didn’t mean they should shoot down a passenger plane. Like where is Ukraine’s standing in air traffic control and income from, if nobody is flying to or over Ukraine. And adds to their isolation.

    These are very expensive weapons, why did Russia give them to the militants. The shoulder fired sams were perfectly adequate for the attacks on Ukraine military 12 aircraft taken out. Buks definitely overkill.

    Russian mafia are a very nasty murderous lot, ask Moldova, Georgia, Estonia etc. Europe is a very weak lot. Another nail in the coffin of Ukraine.

  194. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    QF never had that dilemma as the great circle route between DXB and LHR is about 200 kms south of the Ukraine border over central Romania

    Tom, Da Hairy Ape says that the great circle route deviates according to the jet stream; all other things being equal they fly the jet stream. He just showed, by making various circles with his arms representing the globe, that on our way to Dubai we took one route (Emirates ticket) and on our way back from Dubai we went by a more circuitous route (Qantas code-share on Emirates).

    I’m still not sure I completely comprehend it all, and I remain quiet to him, in case, like Grigory, he starts to laugh at my geographical incomprehension.

    I don’t have room in my brain for too much useless information. It is pretty full already with stuff that I really need and use all the time. 😉

  195. kae

    IT

    I was surprised that the site had people picking things up, like passports, and displaying them on social media.

    How many looters are there? How much evidence will be lost? It’s crazy.

    Will there be enough evidence for the truth to come out?

  196. Ros

    A holiday in Estonia we were told by our guide about the night the USSR took 45,000, some for known reasons, many just because. Bye bye Estonians. And just to make point, we can and you should be very frightened. Point the Estonians don’t think the KGB man in charge and his mates have changed.
    Estonia has had several serious threats from Russia, usual story, protecting Russians living in Estonia from nazis running Estonia. May have to invade. They are worried that when Russia is finished with others they will be back for another go, and they too don’t have high hopes of Europe

  197. kae

    Why is it that people try to emphasise the horror of the whole incident by talking about x number of children and y number of babies?

    Nearly 300 people died in that incident. Can’t it be left at that?

    And the insistence of talk about “innocent” people on the plane is frustrating. They were civilians shot out of the sky.

    If footage that I’ve seen on the net is real the plane had an engine on fire as it fell from the sky, intact. Those people, if they were conscious, knew they were doomed.

    Insurance. What happens to those who are grieving, those who are orphaned or have lost a parent, a child, a spouse? How does insurance work? My understanding is that you cannot be insured for terrorism or an act of war.

  198. Fisky

    He was a trained disaster recovery expert and said it was the worst thing he’d ever seen. He spent a long time looking for the black boxes and said they were not located.

    That’s because they have been whisked away to Moscow already. Hey you Putinist fuckwits, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Nice idol you’ve got there.

  199. egg_

    Stephan
    #1386956, posted on July 18, 2014 at 9:00 pm

    That’s like me saying ‘I wouldn’t piss on a Queenslander if they were on fire, complete slack-jawed reprobates’, because they elected frogface prick as the premier.

    Best SfB clone impression to date…

  200. Leo G

    “So Russia cancelled four flight paths. My conspiracy cells working overtime.” – Ros

    Just hours before the Malaysian plane was downed, the Russians closed the L980 air route in Russian airspace adjacent to East Ukraine.
    Days earlier, a Ukrainian Transport plane was downed while flying at 7000 metre along the same L980 air route.
    The Russians do appear to be increasing the isolation of Ukraine.

  201. Yohan

    The most interesting thing is the last 10 flights paths of MH17, all very far from the conflict area except one flight, its last. I presume if other flight paths are plotted, including those of Malaysia Airlines itself, we will find that airlines have in fact been avoiding this area, and it was only bad luck this plane strayed off course.

    The rebels have probably got used to the idea that any plane in that area must be military and nothing else, so its all clear skies to shoot.

  202. Ripper

    The most interesting thing is the last 10 flights paths of MH17, all very far from the conflict area except one flight, its last. I presume if other flight paths are plotted, including those of Malaysia Airlines itself, we will find that airlines have in fact been avoiding this area, and it was only bad luck this plane strayed off course.

    The rebels have probably got used to the idea that any plane in that area must be military and nothing else, so its all clear skies to shoot.

    http://brics6.itamaraty.gov.br/media2/press-releases

    Maybe , I have been expecting something since the BRIC’S signed their currency deal, whether this is related it is too early to tell.

  203. Nic

    Palestine was involved ? Who knew ?

  204. Leigh Lowe

    Okay, so we’re agreed that Putin bears no more responsibility for Mh17 than Ronald Reagan bore for the shooting down of the Iranian airliner by the USS Vincennes?

    The highest level of moral equivalence bullshit.
    The Iranian airliner failed to correctly set it’s transponder (instructed by he Ayatollah perhaps, as a game of brinksmanship) and failed to respond to three IFF calls.
    Totally different circumstances to the cold blooded murder in this case.

  205. Yohan

    The Iranian airliner failed to correctly set it’s transponder (instructed by he Ayatollah perhaps, as a game of brinksmanship) and failed to respond to three IFF calls.

    You obviously have no idea what you are taking about when it comes to the USS Vincennes incident.

  206. Oh come on

    Give him a break. Obama is semi-retired.

    I first read that as semi-retarded.

  207. JC

    So Russia cancelled four flight paths. My conspiracy cells working overtime.

    ‘Okay, so lets start hearing the conspiracy theories. I’m in like always.

    Someone somewhere is going to make shape of an arc and get us from WTC to the MAL flight. I just know this is going to happen, in fact I bet money on it.

  208. Yohan

    The accidental shootdown of Iran Air 655 was essentially a failure of technology.

    The Vincennes radar had locked an Iranian F-14 on radar taxing on a nearby military runway. When the Civilian aircraft took off this F-14 radar ‘squawk’ code transferred to the wrong aircraft blip and was not refreshed or updated on their radar. Remember we are talking 1988 technology here.

    So the Vincennes then tried to hail the ‘F-14’ on military coms and other coms multiple times, but never on the coms used by the Civilian airlines.

    The one human failure was by a Vincennes operator who told the captain the aircraft was descending in altitude (it was actually ascending) which indicated to the captain a missile firing attack pattern. So they shot it down.

  209. JC

    FFS, airlines including Lufthansa, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways and Malaysia Airlines had been using the busy Ukraine routing primarily to save fuel. In other words, these so-called premium brands actually had a policy to save money before considering their customers’ welfare.

    Seeya later MAL. Nice knowing you.

  210. Leigh Lowe

    Yohan … The Iranians would have everyone believe that it was all the fault of the US (and clearly you follow that sucker-punch line).
    Not so.
    Whatever the idiots on the flight deck of the Iranian airliner were up to who knows?
    Playing games?
    Language difficulties?
    Under direction?
    Whatever … hey contributed to their own demise, unlike the crew of MH 17

  211. Oh come on

    He’s capitalising on this tragedy – using it as a vehicle to aim barbs at his political opponents.

    Derp
    #1386717, posted on July 18, 2014 at 5:08 pm

    All predicated on capability, will and intent.
    None of which are in supply.
    Europe will find a very good reason to do exactly what they have always done.
    This will be rationalised away.

    Fisky
    #1386701, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:58 pm
    Merkel, maybe.
    The Germans are the fucking worst of the lot. Have no confidence in that gang at all.
    Tom
    #1386692, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:55 pm
    …do you think Russia would militarily engage the NATO force?
    This is a very good idea. They would be in effect filling a vacuum and Putin would have no moral authority to do anything about it.
    Which one out of Cameron, Hollande, Merkel and Obama has the balls to defend principle and stand up to a thug like Putin? Merkel, maybe. The rest are fucking women.
    #1386691, posted on July 18, 2014 at 4:53 pm
    Oh come on
    Id bet on yes, but using his catspaws in the separatist movement against the “fascist invaders of the motherland” or some similar tripe. Mines and hit and run, not to mention logistic could make it extremely costly.
    Part of the reason for all the kerfuffle in the first place was the EU trying to “democratize” the Ukraine and pull it from Russias orbit.
    Machiavelli had a bit about unarmed prophets and their chances.

    Then Numbers says

    The lack of self-awareness of the usual suspects here is mind-blowing.

    The only thing that’s mind blowing is your epic stupidity, Numbers. You don’t percieve a difference between what you’ve been doing throughout this thread – hijacking this tragedy to attack your political opponents who had absolutely nothing to do with the downing of MH17 – and what “the usual suspects” have been doing, namely attacking the people responsible for the tragedy? You stupid, disgraceful old fool, Numbers. If you were a dog, you’d be taken out the back and shot.

  212. Derp

    Numbers, your first post in this thread verballed. Follow thine own logic and ban yourself.

    You quoted me in an attempt to portray a case of making political hay, simply ridiculous.
    To try and conflate it with your hackery and barracking, beyond parody.
    Feel free to apologise when Europe does not send troops to Ukraine.

  213. JC

    In the mid 80’s I was flying to the UK from Australia and the plane took the scenic route over the Middle East. I recall the pilot saying that if you looked out the window at 9 oclock to could see flashes of yellowish light. These were artillery barrages between Iraq and Iran. I was hooked. I was peering out the window for ages hoping to see more of the light show.

  214. JC

    The one human failure was by a Vincennes operator who told the captain the aircraft was descending in altitude (it was actually ascending) which indicated to the captain a missile firing attack pattern. So they shot it down.

    Ummm no, the failure was on the part of Iran. If it hadn’t taken those hostages from the American embassy the relationship between the two countries may not have been so severe and the US Navy may not have been so trigger happy.
    Blame them , not the US.

  215. Leigh Lowe

    Vlad wants to reconstitute the USSR by increments.
    Who is going to stop him?
    The empty chair behind the desk in the Oval Office?
    Not likely.

  216. Oh come on

    That was a perfect war, JC. It must be admitted that the CIA in the late 1970s-early 80s was startlingly effective. Their golden age, even. They engineered the ruin of the Soviets in Afghanistan, and got the hideous regimes of Iran and Iraq grinding each other down rather than looking further abroad. Realpolitik at its best.

  217. Yohan

    There is a lot that can be said about Iran, but when it comes to the facts surrounding Flight 655, what I’m saying has been based on investigations done by the US military itself into what happened, not some lefty blame America always nonsense.

  218. JC

    OCO

    Yea, it was a great spectators war. Kinda like watching Wimbledon – rolling your head around as the players volley deo one end to the other. The US administration played that one like masters OCO. Just at the right time they supplied weapons to Iraq tilting the edge ever so slightly to bloody the Iranians.
    The stuff that went on was incredible. Saddam was sending electric currents through the marsh lands to electrocute the Iranian attack. And no one scoffed at the use of chemical weapons then either.

  219. Oh come on

    Right, and the US kept them focused on killing each other rather than killing third parties for the best part of a decade, aiding Iraq when they started losing and then aiding Iran when they started falling behind. It really was masterful stuff. Of course lefties whine about Iran-Contra like it was a bad thing.

  220. JC

    My take on this whole thing is.

    Okay the Russians are seriously fucking culpable. What fuck is Putin doing giving a bunch of trigger happy numbskulls such lethal missiles anyway.

    But you also have to ask why the fuck is Mal flying passenger jets just above a war zone. What sort of imbeciles would do this?

    Putin should resign and never show his face in public again. Fat chance though.

  221. Yohan

    If it turns out that MAL’s flight path really was through that exact area of Donetsk, it will have to be one of the most ludicrous airline safety failures ever. Imbeciles indeed.

  222. oldsalt

    OCO no it wasn’t, don’t be so glib. The Iraqis shot and killed a friend of mine on one of our vessels the Shenton Bluff during the tanker war. There’s nothing good about murdering Australian civilians.

  223. Oh come on

    Oldsalt, I’m talking about the Iran-Iraq War, not the Gulf War.

  224. Oh come on

    Oh, the tanker war. I’m sorry to hear about your friend but neither the Iranians or the Iraqis set out to kill Australians.

  225. JC

    Sorry about your friend Oddsalt. You shouldn’t personalize this though.

    From my perspective at the time, the tanker war was a blast (no pun intended). Traders used to play tanker bingo on Fridays betting a tanker would get blown up and if it did it would send the dollar/oil higher on Monday morning.

    To be frank though, your friend knew the risks he was taking because the tankers that went into the gulf at the time were playing the risk game themselves and the crews were compensated at a much higher rates of pay.

  226. oldsalt

    Yes the Iraqis set out to kill us. Their Double Entendarde targeted us and killed us. They did the same to A Brit vessel too. Very probably Christian pilots as they controlled the Iraqi Airforce.

  227. oldsalt

    I was there. Bob Wellcock was the skipper of Freo registered trawler, not a tanker, Shenton Bluff, owned by Lombardos. He was an indig bloke from South Australia. The Iraqi pilot knew exactly what he was doing. It was just luck the whole crew didn’t die too.

  228. oldsalt

    There was nothing good about the Iran Iraq War. The debts incurred led Saddam to invade and annex Kuwait. Then the next two Gulf Wars until we have what we have now. Bad choices by Iraq, not clever CIA.

  229. JC

    Oldsalt.

    There’s nothing good about any war. However there less “nothing good” about the Iran/Iraq war. We were hoping they would both lose and in a way the US made that happen.

  230. JC

    Here you go dickhead.

    The modeling from the BNEF team in Sydney found that new wind farms could supply electricity at a cost of $80/MWh –compared with $143/MWh for new build coal, and $116/MWh for new build gas-fired generation.

    These figures include the cost of carbon emissions, but BNEF said even without a carbon price, wind energy remained 14 per cent cheaper than new coal and 18 per cent cheaper than new gas.

    “The perception that fossil fuels are cheap and renewables are expensive is now out of date”, said Michael Liebreich, chief executive of Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

    Notice what they are doing? They’re bullshitting gullible idiots like you by playing around with factoids.

    They’re comparing new builds for wind and solar to a hypothetical new build for gas and coal plants which would be so expensive because of greenslime regulations they would uneconomic.

    Will you fuck off with your fucking religion and peddle it elsewhere please. The Cat will eventually send you crazy like all lefties.

    Ask those scumbags this question. What would the KWH cost for coal plants be unmolested by green tape.

    Now fuck off.

  231. oldsalt

    The Iran Iraq War had its causes which predated Saddam. Iraq reneged on a Treaty in the hope of grabbing a slice of southern Iran. Bad choice. The ensuing war resulted in Iraq grabbing Kuwaiti oil fields to repay war debt. Another bad choice. Iraq then refused to abide by the terms of surrender. Another bad choice. I don’t see any evidence of intelligent design by the US, just dumb dictators. What’s the use of playing two bad guys against each other if the loser turns around and starts another war to cover for the first?

    The whole Iraqi saga shows us what Big History can do to Nations that make bad choices, being a member of the UN doesn’t confer a Nation nor its borders with legitimacy forever. That’s why we’re the lucky country, because, apart from our indig, History hasn’t been perpetrated upon us, yet. So we’d better not make bad choices.

  232. Oh come on

    Iraq didn’t lose. They didn’t win, either. Pity they both couldn’t lose, really. The war kept those rabid dogs at bay throughout the 80s, giving the US space to focus on winning the Cold War rather than putting out fires in the Middle East. Yes Iraq invaded Kuwait. However, I’m not convinced that they would have been any less menacing had they not have gone to war with the Persians.

  233. From PPRUNE

    Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems, I can guarantee that if you just want to shot down an aircraft at high altitude with any of their high end systems without worrying about what you are shooting at in a non ECM environment they are very easy pieces of equipment to operate.

  234. Ros

    Like the explanation from the Russian analyst as to why Russia gave the militants buks better than mine, ie Ukraine winning the battle and Russia wanted to disrupt their supplies to their troops in the contested zone. Flying transport planes above the reach of the shoulder held sams. Which explains why the Ukrainians banned international flights below 30,000.

    But an additional payoff for the Russians has been a further opportunity to attack the competence of Ukranian air traffic control. Russian ambassador UN, sad about deaths but why was air traffic control (obviously Ukranian air traffic control) sending planes on that route. The hide of the sods, it was unsafe because the Russians recklessly and indifferently, gave medium range sams to a mob of thugs and criminals who they could have anticipated would shoot at anything. Don’t share this information with the rest of the world, so TWELVE passenger planes an hour could fly this route, as on the day of the murders, ignorant of Russia’s plans to have missiles launched into the space.

    Having suffered the absolute horror of St Petersberg air port know that the Russians are completely indifferent to safety and could not organise a chook raffle. Spent over an hour literally jammed against the other hundred or so in a very small area shuffling in fear to the one security gate. If you didn’t push would have been there days later. One man was becoming extremely distressed as he held his small child above his shoulders to protect him from the impenetrable mass which would have trampled him if he had put him down. All the time we were being abused by hard faced uniformed officials. Moscow was not so crowded, but 3 hours of shuffling to customs. And as a demonstration of their competence they had the entrance to their vip across the other side of this flow of increasingly grumpy crowd so even the vips had to shuffle at a glacial pace to their special door.

    Twelve planes an hour on a route that the rest of the world thought was no more dangerous than so many others in the world. It was just horrid luck for the passengers of MA17 that it was their plane in the queue that took the hit. As was pointed out, the PM of India was only an hour behind the plane that was butchered.

  235. Combine_Dave

    As was pointed out, the PM of India was only an hour behind the plane that was butchered

    I can’t help but think the outcomes would have been different if they’d taken out the Indian PM.

  236. Mater

    Having operated and maintained Russian SAM systems, I can guarantee that if you just want to shot down an aircraft at high altitude with any of their high end systems without worrying about what you are shooting at in a non ECM environment they are very easy pieces of equipment to operate.

    Yes, like all Russian equipment, designed to be used and maintained by Conscripts. I, for one, am in no doubt that the knowledge required to shoot down a plane, flying flat and level, exists within the militia.

  237. Grigory M

    Spent over an hour literally jammed against the other hundred or so in a very small area shuffling in fear to the one security gate. If you didn’t push would have been there days later. One man was becoming extremely distressed as he held his small child above his shoulders to protect him from the impenetrable mass which would have trampled him if he had put him down. All the time we were being abused by hard faced uniformed officials.

    Crazy, hey. Sounds just like the last time I went through Security at LAX.

  238. Alfonso

    Oh my, it was a no fly zone to FL320, the 3rd world airline thought 33,000 was therefore just dandy.
    You have to laugh or you’d cry.

  239. Ros

    Up until murder of MA17 Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic, Alitalia, Air France and KLM had been flying over eastern Ukraine.

    MA17 was a codeshare flight with KLM. KLM is a third world airline? The other first world airlines listed now designated third world airlines?

    Saw a passenger being interviewed last night who had landed in Australia making the point that they were passengers on the Singapore flight that had followed/preceded the Malaysian flight on the route. Singapore now a third world airline?

    Malaysian, its passengers and crew are the victims, stop being such lousy sods.

  240. Leo G

    Yes, like all Russian equipment, designed to be used and maintained by Conscripts.

    The argument that the missile systems used to down MH17 and a Ukrainian transport were operated by Ukrainian separatists who may have received some training as conscripts in the Ukrainian defence forces has a number of difficulties.
    Some commenters have claimed personal experience as authority to claim that the Buk and Kub systems are designed to be easy to use and cite supporting news stories.

    The assumption thereby is that the launchers are used in stand-alone mode, and not as part of the usual field battery comprising the launcher, the command vehicle and the target acquisition vehicle. When used in stand-alone mode, the users must rely on the launchers more limited inbuilt radar.
    The later Buk Launchers can be used in a target-detection mode, allowing the unit automatically (ie autonomously) engage a target acquired in the radar’s forward field.
    It could be said that using the launcher in this mode doesn’t involve a well-trained operator- it doesn’t require an operator, period. But it does require full knowledge of the geographic and altitude boundaries of the radar target field, which is no job for a superficially-trained technician.

    The Russians would never permit the separatists to deploy a launcher in this way, directly under an international airline air path (L980/A87) without close supervision by well-trained Russian specialists. Not unless they intended a passenger aircraft to be downed, and their separatist friends to be blamed.

    The Russians could themselves have a strong motive for using the launchers in stand-alone mode. The motive would be to avoid clearly demonstrating the Russian forces were commanding the SAMs.

  241. Shelley

    And the insistence of talk about “innocent” people on the plane is frustrating.

    Why the hostility in referring to people as innocent?

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