Two statists and me

So this morning I was on the Outsiders segment on Radio National. Two topics came up, abolition of the carbon tax, and increased ASIO powers.

Remarkably I was the only person concerned by the increase in the surveillance state. Statist 1 argued that ASIO powers hadn’t been updated in 30 odd years and that this was necessary and we needed to think about appropriate checks and balances. Perhaps more time was necessary for the appropriate checks and balances. Statist 2 argued that the ATO should be given the same surveillance power as ASIO to clamp down on tax evasion.* Simply remarkable – no doubt that is where we will end up.

My view on this are informed by Schumpeter (emphasis added):

In capitalist society—or in a society that contains a capitalist element of decisive importance—any attack on the intellectuals must run up against the private fortresses of bourgeois business which, or some of which, will shelter the quarry. Moreover such an attack must proceed according to bourgeois principles of legislative and administrative practice which no doubt may be stretched and bent but will checkmate prosecution beyond a certain point. Lawless violence the bourgeois stratum may accept or even applaud when thoroughly roused or frightened, but only temporarily. In a purely bourgeois regime like that of Louis Philippe, troops may fire on strikers, but the police cannot round up intellectuals or must release them forthwith; otherwise the bourgeois stratum, however strongly disapproving some of their doings, will rally behind them because the freedom it disapproves cannot be crushed without also crushing the freedom it approves.

So we start with the notion that Australia faces an increased risk of terrorism. Then we increase the surveillance power of the state to listen in on phone calls, read emails, check out everyone’s selfies and, if Edward Snowden is to be believed, their porn collections too.

Surprisingly (/sarc) the government doesn’t seem to be increasing the penalties associated with acts of terrorism. Rather it is increasing the power of the state to spy on citizens at home and abroad.

This is an area where politicians are especially gutless – few seem willing to stand up and ask the tough questions like, “How precisely will this improve national security?” or “Will those public servants who abuse this increased authority be sent to prison?” and so on.

* To be fair – he might have meant that this extension of ATO powers would galvanise the business community to speak up against the expansion of ASIO powers – but perhaps I’m being too generous.

This entry was posted in Hypocrisy of progressives, Take Nanny down, Tough on Crime, tough on criminals. Bookmark the permalink.

211 Responses to Two statists and me

  1. TerjeP

    The first question ever asked in the senate by David Leyonhjelm related to legislation extending police powers in relation to the G20 in Brisbane. But the media don’t seem to have any interest in the issue. They would rather talk about his views on firearms or marriage.

  2. stackja

    ASIO seemed to have done a good job so far in Australia.
    Do we trust that terrorists will not want an event?

  3. boy on a bike

    Don’t you have better things to do on a Sunday morning?

  4. jupes

    They would rather talk about his views on firearms or marriage.

    So would he. That way he gets a photo op with the Junkie’s Wife.

  5. jupes

    Surprisingly (/sarc) the government doesn’t seem to be increasing the penalties associated with acts of terrorism.

    Very good point. At the moment there is an ‘Aussie’ in Iraq murdering with IS, who is a convicted terrorist in Australia. Apparently he served three years or so for support to terrorism.

    Given that terrorism is mass murder for a political cause, how can any support for it result in only three years jail?

    Utterly pathetic and self-defeating.

  6. jupes

    ASIO seemed to have done a good job so far in Australia.
    Do we trust that terrorists will not want an event?

    Exactly. I have no problem with expanding ASIO powers. I trust them a lot more than the judiciary or the Muslim community.

  7. Tom

    Unlike the 20th century left, almost all of the modern left is financed by funds confiscated from their enemies, the taxpayers, using the state’s monopoly on violence as the major compliance lever. The modern left will enthusiastically embrace any ramping up of police power as that strengthens the state, which pays its bills. Nice to see it being acknowledged publicly.

    The left, including the judiciary, on the other hand, will never accept tougher penalties for terrorists, because they are victims. The Abbott Regime supports both those leftist agendas — stronger police powers, “compassion” for terrorists.

  8. incoherent rambler

    Tome, you forget “cultural sensitivity” in sentencing.

  9. C.L.

    I have no problem with expanding ASIO powers.

    You have no problem with the state reading your mail?

    What an incredible statement.

    Anyone who supports this may as well take a dump on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

    You’re saying the Axis was right all along.

  10. Des Deskperson

    In my experience, ASIO, and the ‘intelligence community’ in general, is extremely risk averse. It usually goes with the most pessimistic scenario – what might happen – even when there is little hard evidence to support it.

    This extreme caution may well be justified in certain cases, but it is something to be born in mind when governments are arguing – presumably on the basis of scenarios provided by the’ intelligence community’ – for more powers for that ‘community’ .

  11. C.L.

    Well, we know the use of the Bali Bombing in selling this was total, absolute cynical bullshit.

  12. struth

    It’s as if Australia wants to make sure mussies don’t succeed in a terrorist attack until they’ve imported enough to really do damage. All with the added benefit of spying on and being able to better foil any percieved enemies actions be they a tax dodger or political opposition.
    I hate to say this as people will jump all over me but I think I would rather have the terrorist attack to awaken the ignorant than a too powerful government suppressing everything else as an excuse to delay what will end up killing more in the long run.

  13. struth

    The government caused the problem in the first place. No one voted for multiculturalism. Ah the democratically illegitimate laws come back to bite them on the arse and we pay with another assault on our privacy and freedom.
    Democratic legitimacy is the issue with many other topics on other threds.
    These bastards are out of control thanks largely to Australia’s politically lethargic population.

  14. Diogenes

    For terrorists to win they only need to strike once.

    For the government to win it must not allow even 1 strike. It is loose/loose for government given the number of potential terrorists vs potential targets, and the security service always seem to fighting the last war. eg My little brother was an Inspector in NSW police at the time of 9/11. After having gone through the rigmorale of airport security after he visited us at Brisbane we were sitting in the bar & looked out a Fisherman Island and saw one of those huuuuge LPG tankers. He remarked on how silly airport security was – a small bomb on the tanker would do more damage than 100 suicide bomber could do ever do.

    Terror suspects now increasingly do NOT use electronic communications assuming they are being tracked. (cf bin Laden) also see the Clive Hamilton’s Conversation story

    Savvy campaigners now assume that their communications are being routinely monitored. Greenpeace activists, for example, are in the habit of turning off their mobile phones when discussing campaigns. They leave them in another room under a pile of magazines, aware that they can be turned on remotely and used as listening devices. The video and audio facilities of their computers can also be used for snooping by outside forces. Putting masking tape over webcams is now a standard precaution.

  15. struth

    Has any terrorist anywhere really won anything by only striking once?

  16. Diogenes

    Struth
    the terrorist has demonstrated the state cannot save us, and therefore “wins”.

  17. struth

    Then we are actually agree, that a people strong in their culture and in control of their own government would have minimised our problems greatly with regards to importing terrorist in the first place.?
    How do we expect the government to solve what it caused.
    I never expected the government t o save us.
    And no matter what draconian freedom sapping big brother tactic they use they won’t save us.
    Maybe that’s a good lesson to learn.

  18. Tel

    For the government to win it must not allow even 1 strike.

    That’s rubbish. Did George W Bush get thrown out for being a useless numpty and allowing the largest terrorist strike on US soil to happen on his watch? No way, he was a hero, regardless of how many things he screwed up.

    Did “America’s Mayor” Guliani get hauled over the coals for standing around grinning for photo ops while he sent people to dig through piles of asbestos dust with little or no protection? Hell no, they loved him!

  19. struth

    Only our culture and integrity and belief that freedom is worth fighting for,…..or at least worth a letter to your local rep……

    God I make myself laugh sometimes…….

  20. Monkey's Uncle

    Exactly. I have no problem with expanding ASIO powers. I trust them a lot more than the judiciary or the Muslim community.

    Trust should have little to do with it. In a society governed by limited government, due process and the rule of law, we do not trust people to not misuse their power. We have sufficient checks and balances to ensure that those that are tempted to misuse power face a high risk of sanctions, and there is limited arbitrary power to be exercised in any event.

    Few people can be trusted with excessive, arbitrary and unaccountable power. Those naive enough to believe that there are authorities out there staffed by saints that will protect us, frankly deserve every conceivable tyranny that could be visited upon them.

  21. manalive

    Surprisingly (/sarc) the government doesn’t seem to be increasing the penalties associated with acts of terrorism …

    How would that deter suicide-bombers?
    O.T., my God that Jack Waterford is full of sh1t.

  22. MemoryVault

    ASIO seemed to have done a good job so far in Australia.

    Speak for yourself.
    Some of us remember the last time ASIO wanted to justify its existence/expand its powers.

  23. jupes

    It’s as if Australia wants to make sure mussies don’t succeed in a terrorist attack until they’ve imported enough to really do damage.

    Yep.

    They could save billions in future security costs as well as many lives by having a discriminatory immigration policy now.

  24. jupes

    You have no problem with the state reading your mail?

    Well if the choice is between being murdered by a terrorist or the state reading my mail, then no I don’t. No problem at all.

    Anyone who supports this may as well take a dump on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

    LOL. The unknown soldier probably had his own mail censored.

    You’re saying the Axis was right all along.

    Ummm … Nope. Not saying that at all really.

  25. oldsalt

    Correct DesD

    How many ASIS agents does it take to change a light? None. First there’s risk assessment then risk mitigation, shit it’s too risky we’ll just pay a contractor.

    The proposed legislation allows ASIS to spy on Aus citz abroad, on behalf of ASIS and without Ministerial approval. This is a big change to its remit and a minefield. Responsibility is taken away from the DFAT’s Minister and presumably given to the AG. Or perhaps not. Seems like another escape clause for Ministers to muddy the waters and deny responsibility when an operation goes pear shaped and an investigation is called for. It removes a check and balance from the system.

    The legislation is not intended to prevent an Australian Snowden. An Aus Snowden would do the same as a US Snowden and avoid the penalties.

    The legislation is intended to try and prevent the cascading of a leak once it’s occurred and its subsequent publication without reintroducing the D Notice. That could be done right now by simply investigating, publicly naming , shaming and sacking their own senior staff who give headsups to their mates in the so-called intelligence community and media. Big heads would roll. Legislation won’t prevent an organisation losing morale and discipline because the leaders are lacking integrity.

  26. oldsalt

    sorry that should read ‘on behalf of asio’

  27. oldsalt

    None of the proposed changes would have prevented the Sari Club crime. That would have required competence and better decision making.

  28. incoherent rambler

    Say we have only 300 or so potential suicide bombers in AU.
    If we stop importing them, we only have to survive 300 suicide bomb attacks and the problem is over.

    Physical protection of its citizens is one of the responsibilities that I am prepared to grant to the state.
    How that relates to ASIO powers I am not too sure.

  29. manalive

    Statist 2 argued that the ATO should be given the same surveillance power as ASIO to clamp down on tax evasion …

    Before the government starts snooping on business and individuals re their tax arrangements, it should get rid of the waste for example …
    ‘… the 6000 staff of the federal Health Dept when the Commonwealth doesn’t actually run a single hospital or nursing home, dispense a single prescription or provide a single medical service and ….
    … the 5000 staff of the federal Education Dept when the Commonwealth doesn’t run a single school and …
    … the 7000 officials in the Defence Materiel Organisation, when the United Kingdom, with armed forces at least four times our size, gets by with 4000 in the equivalent body …’.

    All of the above no doubt avid readers of The Canberra Times (a.k.a. Canberra Real Estate Guide).

  30. thefrollickingmole

    Ill believe they are serious on security when instead of hiring on another 10 staff for every beardie weirdie returning from Syria etc they just cancel their passports and make their re-entry 20 in the slammer.

    Letting terrorist combatants back in so they can be “monitored”, empire building bullshit.

    Its less 1984 and more Brazil thats the problem.

    Sam Lowry: My name’s Lowry. Sam Lowry. I’ve been told to report to Mr. Warrenn.
    Porter – Information Retrieval: Thirtieth floor, sir. You’re expected.
    Sam Lowry: Um… don’t you want to search me?
    Porter – Information Retrieval: No sir.
    Sam Lowry: Do you want to see my ID?
    Porter – Information Retrieval: No need, sir.
    Sam Lowry: But I could be anybody.
    Porter – Information Retrieval: No you couldn’t sir. This is Information Retrieval.

    ……

    T.V. Interviewer: How do you account for the fact that the bombing campaign has been going on for thirteen years?
    Mr. Helpmann: Beginners’ luck.

  31. egg_

    Two statists and me

    Sounds like a fair fight? ;)

  32. cohenite

    Close all mosques, ban islam and then ASIO can sit around twiddling its thumbs waiting for some filth to break the law.

  33. oldsalt

    The legislation isn’t just about preventing terrorism, that’s just the bit they push in public so the other stuff flies under the radar. They have a problem of leaks from within. Bad management and lack of integrity at the top result in bad morale and indiscipline. Fancy allowing a minor personal workplace dispute to fester until the aggrieved party goes public with evidence of spying in E.Timor. Ministers and Agency Heads should have rolled. No amount of legislation in the world will prevent this from repeating if the same circumstances arise. Prospective Heads should be grilled in Parliament before being appointed. So long as senior management can remain in position after failures, there is hardly an incentive to do better.

  34. jupes

    I just listened to the beginning of that segment. First subject was the repeal of the ‘carbon tax”.

    Sinc you were banging on that it was a debate about the science rather than policy. Or something like that anyway. At some point you even called CO2 pollution! The statists then gave their view and I tuned out. The radio was still on but it had lost me. Boring as bat shit.

    What was disappointing about all this was that even with everything we now know, the subject was discussed as if (man made) CO2 caused ‘climate change’ was a real problem and that it is perfectly reasonable for an Australian government to have a policy to combat it.

    This idiocy will never end until the token conservative / right winger / libertarian non-leftist on these ABC shows flicks the switch to ridicule and points out a few scientific facts e.g. global temperatures aren’t rising, China is increasing its CO2 emissions at a rate greater than Australia’s annual rate, Antarctic ice is increasing etc.

    You let us down Old Man.

  35. Sinc, I share your concerns. ASIO is close to arguing it is incompetent in its quest for expanded powers. It already has plenty to deal with the Islamist terrorist threat to Australia. Targeted surveillance is one thing, but generalised powers are not acceptable. I plan to say and do things on this issue and would welcome assistance.

  36. Sinclair Davidson

    Jupes – I have enough runs on the board combating the carbon tax that I don’t really need bullshit comments like that.

  37. jupes

    It already has plenty to deal with the Islamist terrorist threat to Australia.

    Maybe culture trumps economics in regard to immigration. Perhaps a discriminatory immigration policy will reduce that threat in the long run.

    The more Muslims the greater the need for survellience.

  38. Peewhit

    Cohenite, I suppose we could say to all muslims, become christian, pay extra taxes, move or be killed.

  39. Sinclair Davidson

    I’m probably being a bit hard – here is the thing; when everyone was arguing science the warmenists were winning, however, they get screwed when you concede the science and argue policy.

  40. jupes

    Jupes – I have enough runs on the board combating the carbon tax that I don’t really need bullshit comments like that.

    Oh dear. I’ve touched a nerve.

    There is absolutely no point combating a carbon tax if you are prepared to accept the point that ‘climate change’ is a real problem. We will just end up with more idiotic policies.

    Oh, and CO2 is not pollution. There is no reason to accept idiocy just because you are surrounded by three idiots.

  41. jupes

    here is the thing; when everyone was arguing science the warmenists were winning, however, they get screwed when you concede the science and argue policy.

    No, here is the thing; everyone wasn’t arguing the science. To do so would utterly humiliate the warmists.

    What happened and is still happening is that when anyone tries to argue the science, they get ignored. Bolta, Delingpole and Monkton are the only people who have argued the science so they are now avoided by warmists.

    If every non-leftist argued the science it would be all over in a month.

  42. Sinclair Davidson

    Jupes – if that was true, why then did we get a carbon tax? Abbott didn’t destroy the tax by arguing the science was crap, he destroyed the tax by arguing the costs were too high and the benefits too small.

  43. MemoryVault

    DavidLeyonhjelm
    #1388900, posted on July 20, 2014 at 5:01 pm

    David, what you need to come to grips with is that ASIO and ASIS are not attempting to get any actual new powers of surveillance. They are attempting to get legal permission to do things they’ve already been doing since the early 80′s at least, as established under the UKUSA Pact.

    Have a talk with old Iron Bar and ask how much he still stands by his speech delivered from the steps of the “new” suburban local “Telephone Exchange” (ha ha), in Kent Street, Deakin, back in 1988.

    Better yet, go visit the place yourself. Mind you, it’s had a name change since then. It’s now the Deakin Defence Offices, and I’m not sure, as a “mere Senator”, that they’ll let you in.

    You might like to check out the subterranean facilities at the actual Telstra Exchange next door, while you’re there. Could be enlightening.

  44. oldsalt

    I wouldn’t be surprised if some ASIS officers resign on principle. Conflating the ASIO and ASIS remits is a mistake. The potential for abuse is evident. The legislation will also permit ASIS to give self defence training to others [read weapons and contractors] another minefield. More contractors, more labour disputes left to fester equals more leaks.

    For those interested in the sort of leaks that have prompted parts of this legislation, you should refer to Carr’s disastrous tenure when the Dir of ASIS was permitted to give its first ever presser, to a private thinktank, Lowy. There was no press secretary. Nor were the usual DFAT protocols used. Warner all but boasted of agents combating terrorism and people smuggling in South and SE Asia. A certain media outlet immediately ran with stories on ASIS agents and operations in Pakistan and Indonesia, destroying operations and placing lives in danger. You’ll have to get behind the paywall to access the most damaging piece now.

  45. Stephan

    Abbott didn’t destroy the tax by arguing the science was crap, he destroyed the tax by arguing the costs were too high and the benefits too small.

    Actually, he destroyed the tax mainly by arguing it was a broken promise, by using the manufactured boats n’ debt ‘crises’, and using Labor’s own leadership idiocy against them.

    The cost vs. benefit debate has never really taken place in the wider electorate beyond blaming the CT for a few plant shutdowns that would’ve happened anyway and the ‘.00043 degree difference’ red herring. I.e. mindless slogans.

  46. Sinclair Davidson

    Stephan – winners are grinners, losers can please themselves.

  47. Fisky

    Actually, he destroyed the tax mainly by arguing it was a broken promise, by using the manufactured boats n’ debt ‘crises’, and using Labor’s own leadership idiocy against them.

    The boats crisis was manufactured, was it?

  48. cohenite

    Cohenite, I suppose we could say to all muslims, become christian, pay extra taxes, move or be killed.

    How witty; an attempt at irony. Dickhead.

  49. jupes

    Jupes – if that was true, why then did we get a carbon tax?

    Precisely because the too many of the great unwashed believe that CO2 emissions are a problem. We need to ‘do something’ to ‘save the planet’. FMD that really is insane.

    Abbott didn’t argue that climate change was crap because it is still politically too hard to do so. People like you need to create the environment where it is OK to point out that AGW is – really is – crap. Ridicule is the best weapon. There is plenty of ammunition around but very few are prepared to use it.

  50. Stephan

    Stephan – winners are grinners, losers can please themselves.

    True that. Of course it doesn’t make much difference to the climate if we have a carbon tax or not – I realise that. Interesting though that Shorten promises to bring an E.T.S. back, seems like a higher-risk direction and I thought he was even more a rank political opportunist than Abbott. Must be a rich enough vote market for climate change action, for better or worse.

  51. oldsalt

    Yes the boats ‘crisis’ was partially manufactured. Abbott rode to power on it, he may or may not have been able to do so on the carbon tax alone. He destroyed the Malaysia agreement which had a reasonable chance of making progress. progress would have taken away some of his potential votes.

  52. Fisky

    Of course it doesn’t make much difference to the climate if we have a carbon tax or not

    I’m glad we’ve established that. It was terrible policy-making and thank goodness it’s behind us.

  53. Fisky

    Yes the boats ‘crisis’ was partially manufactured.

    Our annualised arrival rate reached 50,000 in June/July 2013. Nothing manufactured about that.

    He destroyed the Malaysia agreement

    You mean, the High Court destroyed the Malaysia agreement.

  54. Infidel Tiger

    He destroyed the Malaysia agreement

    No. Abbott has destroyed the people smuggling trade.

    From 50,000 illegal arrivals to zero.

    The Malaysia agreement would have seen us increase our intake of labor voters. It was a steaming crock of shit.

  55. jupes

    the ‘.00043 degree difference’ red herring. I.e. mindless slogans.

    Except that it is neither a red herring or a mindless slogan.

    It is precisely why the whole idea should have been laughed out of existance as soon as it was proposed.

    What is the point of all that time energy and money spent on developing the policy – let alone the cost to the economy – for an unmeasurable effect on the temperature? Absolutely, totally insane.

    Of course it doesn’t make much difference to the climate if we have a carbon tax or not – I realise that.

    Then what is the point? Really, what is the fucking point?

  56. jupes

    From 50,000 illegal arrivals to zero.

    Only until the High Court make their decision.

    Then it’s back to square one.

  57. oldsalt

    One of the first major public statements Abbott made after being elected was to assure Jakarta that no Australians would be allowed to undermine Indonesia’s sovereignty from Australian soil. Why do you think he said this and what was he intending to do?

    Here’s an scenario.

    Fisky is our newly appointed roving Ambassador on people smuggling. He goes to Jakarta and presents his counterpart with a list of 20 odd syndicates and Indonesian smugglers we’d like them to shut down. His counterpart replies that they don’t have the domestic legislation to do that but he’ll take the list to the Pres anyway.

    Next month you meet again and your counterpart presents you with a list of 20 odd Australian NGOs and citizens, perhaps including Greens politicians, Jakarta accuses of threatening their territorial sovereignty in Papua, and ask that we shut them down. We reply that we don’t have the domestic legislation and anyway the public wouldn’t wear it. Both parties interpret their obligations under the Lombok Treaty in a minimalist way.

    Then, our newly elected PM proclaims he won’t allow Australians to work against Jakarta’s sovereignty [read Papua]. Words Jakarta has been waiting to hear.

    Just words? Or could Abbott have been planning a crack down? On who?

  58. stackja

    Liberty Quotes
    It has been reported in the press many times that the issue of pollution is to be the next big crusade of the New Left activists, after the war in Vietnam peters out. And just as peace was not their goal or motive in that crusade, so clean air is not their goal or motive in this one.
    — Ayn Rand

    How did she know about Kev?

  59. Gab

    One of the first major public statements Abbott made after being elected was to assure Jakarta that no Australians would be allowed to undermine Indonesia’s sovereignty from Australian soil. Why do you think he said this

    He said that because before, during and immediately after the election Rudd was carrying on like a dumb chook saying Abbott would cause a ‘konfrontasi’ with Indonesia due to his ‘stop the boats’ policies. Naturally, the coven of opinion writers in the hate media followed suit to the point where Abbott had to say something to publicly counter the hysteria.

  60. Stephan

    No. Abbott has destroyed the people smuggling trade.

    Wellll, technically Rudd mostly destroyed it with the Manus island solution and promise of no pathway to residency. And before that there was at least an attempt with the Malaysia solution. Then you inevitably respond with ‘well, Rudd started the whole thing up in the first place’, and I can’t disagree with that – but let’s be clear: Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    Then what is the point? Really, what is the fucking point?

    Partly to encourage getting ahead of the curve in developing tech for what will be among the biggest industries this century (which will no doubt be alternately furiously ignored and railed against here).

    And partly because: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

  61. Tel

    … but let’s be clear: Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    Mostly by getting out of the way, which is why the boats stopped after Rudd got out of the way.

  62. manalive

    You let us down Old Man …

    I can see the professor’s point, science debates go around in circles the hysterics shriek “climate denier” and similar nonsense and eventually the punters turn off.
    Ignore ’the science’ and simply agree to join any world war on climate change™ which will never happen.
    I would prefer that the government drop the mandatory RET and revert to a voluntary system where the energy consumers decide for themselves if they want to purchase ‘clean’ energy.
    That ought to shut up the ‘Jack Waterfords’ of this world who keep claiming Australians want to do something about climate change™.

  63. Tel

    They are attempting to get legal permission to do things they’ve already been doing since the early 80′s at least…

    That’s what the local dope growing syndicate keeps saying.

  64. MemoryVault

    Abbott didn’t argue that climate change was crap because it is still politically too hard to do so.

    I agree entirely, Jupes, but it is only so because opportunist pricks politicians – including Abbott – made it way. Back a long time ago, before he was even Leader of the Opposition, Abbott was on record as saying “global warming is crap” or words to that effect.

    Then somebody convinced him that there were green votes to be had by supporting the scam, and he recanted and started singing a different tune. The IPA did the same thing, as evidenced by the paper on the merits of a Carbon Tax, linked to in a previous thread.

    If you accept something on the basis of science, then you accept it. If you believe in something political, then you believe in it. Neither science nor politics can survive leaders changing tack every five minutes, like a yacht chasing the next puff of (voter) wind to fill their sails.

    Imagine if Abbott had stuck by his original stated conviction. Yes, he would have copped flack for a while, but as public opinion slowly turned post Climategate, he would have been seen eventually as a statesman prepared to stand by his convictions. He would still have won the last election, possibly with an even increased majority. And from Day One as PM he could have run a broom right through all the waste associated with all these green schemes.

    Instead, nearly a year into his first (and maybe only) term, and millions of dollars a day are still disappearing down the sinkhole of the RET, subsidised wind, solar and tide generation, and all the other craziness associated with the green wet dream of “renewables”.

    Meanwhile Abbott and the LNP are anxiously awaiting the opinion polls, and conducting focus groups, to decide on what they should be seen to be believing in next month.

    We are well and truly r**ted.

  65. Tel

    Few people can be trusted with excessive, arbitrary and unaccountable power. Those naive enough to believe that there are authorities out there staffed by saints that will protect us, frankly deserve every conceivable tyranny that could be visited upon them.

    Agreed. A government keeping secrets is a government up to no good.

  66. oldsalt

    No, he said it because of Jakarta’s concerns about Papuan independent activists here and the obligations of both nations under the Lombok Treaty.

    The Malaysia agreement was a good thing and in the National Interest. The courts, the Greens and Abbott fucked it. The man who proposed it was a hawk not a dove, concerned with our social stability should unregulated Muslim immigration persist. He understood that a simple repeat of the Howard-Ruddock Pacific ‘solution’ was unlikely to succeed because those two gentlemen had ensured that everybody had eventually been given a visa, here or to NZ. The number of asylum seekers left in Indonesia was less than 50. Next time around people would just wait it out, knowing that they’d eventually get in when the boats had stopped and the public forgot. Hence the ‘Never to be resettled in Australia’ addition.

    Nobody, though, has said ‘Never to be resettled in NZ.’ So hope lives on. Scottie calls this a ‘legacy issue.’ Many asylum seekers would rather be a ‘legacy issue’ for us to resolve than go home.

    In the meantime you could ponder the Greens doubly damaging role in this. First they challenge Jakarta’s sovereignty in Papua, when Jakarta kicks back using transnational crime the Greens become facilitators.

  67. Fisky

    Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    It would be correct to say that he cut the majority of the trade (finally) via PNG. However boats were still arriving up to November/December when Sir Morrison rolled out the Orange Lifeboats of Salvation. THAT was what killed the trade completely.

  68. Fisky

    He understood that a simple repeat of the Howard-Ruddock Pacific ‘solution’ was unlikely to succeed because those two gentlemen had ensured that everybody had eventually been given a visa, here or to NZ.

    Actually, that was what open borders apologists were claiming in order to justify the abolition of the PS. But the grand total of boats in the last year of the policy was about 5.

  69. Fisky

    “Offshore processing doesn’t work quite as well as it did five years ago. So we are going to THROW IT ALL AWAY and give visas to anyone who shows up.”

    That was what open borders supporters did in 2007-2008. Sorry if I’m not particularly impressed with the “realist” rationalisation for this.

  70. jupes

    Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    As idiotic a statement as you have made here so far Stephan.

    Since December 19 2013 no boat has successfully made it to Australia. During that time there have a number of boats turned back to Indonesia, and at least three boatloads of asylum seekers sent back on the Sir Scott’s Orange Fleet of Freedom. All those boats would have made it to Australia under Rudd’s policy. How the fuck is that ‘stopping the boats’?

    Also you cannot so flippantly dismiss the fact that Kevin Rudd STARTED the boats. His policy was as disastrous for Australia as any in living memory and may well end up the worst decision by any Prime Minister ever. 50,000 self-selecting people are now living in Australia. This has cost billions and the cost will continue to rise. The security implications are still to be played out.

  71. oldsalt

    There have been boats, unacknowledged. As I’ve written previously, there was a boat in mid May near Ashmore. The Vanguard lifeboats haven’t stopped anything. The initial turnbacks were botched and presented Jakarta with serious leverage over us. Jakarta sends it Ambassador back here because they have been given what they wanted. That’s why they do it.

    You’re just looking at the surface. That’s what the public sees, it what they vote on. It’s been a domestic success. It’s not even half time and one team is proclaiming victory.

  72. Stephan

    It would be correct to say that he cut the majority of the trade (finally) via PNG.

    Exactly.

    However boats were still arriving up to November/December when Sir Morrison rolled out the Orange Lifeboats of Salvation. THAT was what killed the trade completely.

    Eh, they would’ve stopped anyway, no more product to sell. It was a nice flashy addition though.

  73. jupes

    Partly to encourage getting ahead of the curve in developing tech for what will be among the biggest industries this century (which will no doubt be alternately furiously ignored and railed against here).

    What curve? The majority of power stations being built around the world are coal fired. This is a no-brainer because it is the cheapest and most effecient way to generate power.

  74. Fisky

    There have been boats, unacknowledged.

    If that were the case, then the Refugee Industry would have already trumpted that from the rooftops, there would be doorstep interviews with the victorious asylum seeker arrivals with ABC journalists, and the issue would be out.

  75. oldsalt

    Rudd didn’t start the boats. A few still came after Howard had ‘stopped’ them, including those who had already been turned back. This seems to be ok by the Australian public, so long as its not a flood. Nobody complained.

    Howard left a poison pill for Rudd by too hastily accepting the Papuan boat. Jakarta called us out for double standards, accused us of threatening their territorial integrity and recalled the Ambassador until we’d changed the draft wording of the Lombok Treaty to better suit them. Rudd was stupid beyond belief to think that the Lombok Treaty would prevent a repeat.

  76. oldsalt

    No, the refugee industry doesn’t know very much at all.

  77. Fisky

    A few still came after Howard had ‘stopped’ them, including those who had already been turned back

    An average of about 3 per year.

    Howard left a poison pill for Rudd by too hastily accepting the Papuan boat.

    There was no constituency or justification for his not accepting the boat. Because they were directly fleeing territory where there was a conflict, not coming via a third-party.

    Rudd was stupid beyond belief to think that the Lombok Treaty would prevent a repeat.

    In that case, Rudd DID start the boats. You’ve just admitted it right there. He was “stupid” alright, but stupidity is not an excuse.

  78. Fisky

    No, the refugee industry doesn’t know very much at all.

    If you are alleging that asylum seekers have been coming on shore “secretly”, both the refugee industry and the potential boat skippers would have an interest in blaring that news across the country. It would be out, as soon as one of the asylum seekers got access to a mobile phone (in fact, they all seem to have Ian Rintoul on speed dial even before they disembark).

  79. Fisky

    Eh, they would’ve stopped anyway, no more product to sell. I

    No, they continued to arrive for six months, even despite the Rudd government’s promise that they would receive no settlement. Because they knew that the government could not deport them if they didn’t know their nationality.

  80. Tel

    The Malaysia agreement was a good thing and in the National Interest. The courts, the Greens and Abbott fucked it.

    Agreed on that as well, but some times this happens.

  81. Fisky

    Stephan, just to clarify – you did believe that it was correct to abolish the Pacific Solution, didn’t you?

  82. Gab

    A few still came after Howard had ‘stopped’ them, including those who had already been turned back

    “Few” being the operative word.

    2001, 43 boats arrived and that the years Howard implemented the Pacific Solution.

    2002, 1 boat

    2003, 1 boat

    2004, 1 boat

    2005, 15 boats

    2006, 6 boats

    2007, 5 boats

    2008, 7 boats to end August saw over 50,000 arrivals in six years. But yeah, Howard never stopped the boats and Rudd never opened the floodgates for more illegal maritime arrivals.

  83. Gab

    Oops, 2005 saw 4 boats, not 15.

  84. Fisky

    I am smelling a DFAT/Labor propagandist in our midst. I hope this isn’t the case.

  85. Stephan

    What curve? The majority of power stations being built around the world are coal fired. This is a no-brainer because it is the cheapest and most effecient way to generate power.

    Going with furious ignorance this time, I see. For better or worse, most people who look at our energy needs realise coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track. That’s a ‘no-brainer’ for most.

  86. oldsalt

    Please notice i said ‘too hastily.’ That’s what angered Jakarta. Evans neutralised the boatload of E.Timorese by creating a special class of TPV just for them. A number of the Papuans returned to Indonesia, including the skipper, claiming they’d been duped and it had been a people smuggling venture in which passengers had bough tickets on a promise of tertiary education in Australia.

    POLRI were preventing boats making their way through the archipelago. After the Papuan incident, they stopped doing so. POLRI have been tightening security at ports of entry and departure for quite some time now and smugglers are finding it more difficult than usual. It’s an indication that Jakarta is getting what it wants from us.

  87. Fisky

    It’s an indication that Jakarta is getting what it wants from us.

    They might well be (whatever it is that they “want”), but your claim was actually that asylum seekers have been successfully arriving onshore and that the government have been covering this up.

  88. jupes

    We are well and truly r**ted.

    Good post Vaulta. I agree entirely.

  89. cohenite

    For better or worse, most people who look at our energy needs realise coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track. That’s a ‘no-brainer’ for most.

    AGW doesn’t exist and is therefore not an externality. Your last sentence is correct however, inasmuch it applies to you.

  90. Infidel Tiger

    . It’s an indication that Jakarta is getting what it wants from us.

    $600,000,000 in annual aid.

    Those kleptocratic swines should be on their knees giving us a French polish, not dictating terms.

  91. Gab

    POLRI have been tightening security at ports of entry and departure for quite some time now

    True.They started that on September 8th, 2013.

  92. jupes

    Agreed. A government keeping secrets is a government up to no good.

    Every government keeps secrets. And rightly so.

    Were the governments of US, UK and Canada up to no good on 5 June 1944?

  93. Fisky

    Again, I’m hearing a lot of self-serving DFAT/Labor propaganda and rationalisations.

  94. Driftforge

    coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs

    Coal is only expensive when you conveniently postulate large, long-timeframe externalities that can’t be falsified for 20 years or more.

  95. oldsalt

    Gab, there were less than 50 asylum seekers left in Indonesia during the Pacific ‘solution’ because they’d all come here already. That cycle was mainly Iraqi and Kurd. They had alternatives via Mosul to Turkey and Germany. This time there are over 10,000 in Indonesia still waiting to come here. Or NZ. Jakarta still has potent leverage.

  96. Fisky

    So let’s take stock here:

    -The Pacific Solution “failed” and the boats started up again under Howard
    -Rudd didn’t start the boats (except he did accidentally)
    -Scott Morrison has not achieved anything in his portfolio
    -Boats are still arriving, but secretly
    -(with a knowing smile and a nod) Indonesia have something over us!!

    If I were writing Labor propaganda, I’d at least try to spread it out over different threads so it weren’t so obvious.

  97. Fisky

    Jakarta still has potent leverage.

    Actually, your claim is that they are still arriving. Remember?

  98. jupes

    It’s not even half time and one team is proclaiming victory.

    It is a massive victory. The government has stopped the boats.

    On the other hand, your half time analogy may be right. The High Court is about to destroy the government’s policy.

  99. Fisky

    Sorry, I nearly forgot:

    -The Pacific Solution “failed” and the boats started up again under Howard
    -Rudd didn’t start the boats (except he did accidentally)
    -The Malaysian Solution was excellent!
    -Scott Morrison has not achieved anything in his portfolio
    -Boats are still arriving, but secretly
    -(with a knowing smile and a nod) Indonesia have something over us!!

    Some of us around here were actually trained in designing propaganda, oldsalt! A very disappointing effort.

  100. Infidel Tiger

    OSB is the greatest public policy success in Australian history.

  101. Gab

    Gab, there were less than 50 asylum seekers left in Indonesia during the Pacific ‘solution’ because they’d all come here already.

    Sorry the numbers don’t actually back up your assertion.

  102. stackja

    At the end of the war, the Wireless Group was sworn to secrecy and told that their work would never be recognised by the Australian government. This proved true, as a request for her war record to be read out at her funeral was denied by Canberra. The British government was not so reticent but they were a little tardy. When they created the Bletchley Park Commemorative Badge in 2009 to recognise the importance of the work of the code breakers, Black finally got a letter of acknowledgement, from British Prime Minister Gordon Brown.
    Read more: linky

  103. jupes

    For better or worse, most people who look at our energy needs realise coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track.

    Details please of the evidence for “the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track.”

    During the last 17 years and 10 months the global thermometer has risen not a jot while atmospheric CO2 has risen over 10%.

  104. Stephan

    OSB is the greatest public policy success in Australian history.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! To you and a handful of people here, maybe.

    For the average Aussie, try HECS or Medicare.

  105. oldsalt

    Fisky. The Pacific ‘solution’ displaced asylum seekers from the pipelines into Indonesia and into other pipelines. Subsequently, POLRI prevented most boats from departing, a few got through. That changed after we too hastily gave the Papuans visas.

    I’m unsure whether Rudd made a genuine mistake by relying on the Lombok Treaty to prevent another cycle, or whether he and some of his leading Ministers were ideologically committed to letting the boats in anyway.

    Morrison is a politician. All politicians are guilty until proven innocent. Don’t give them credit for anything at all, they’ll take it anyway. You can be assured that others lined up the ducks for him out of the public gaze. The policy has achieved DOMESTIC success. How sustainable this is, we don’t know. What we have traded away is a known unknown to the general public and no investigative journalists have pursued it.

    Boats are still being intercepted. Two have been in the public domain. At least one hasn’t.

    Geography is destiny. Jakarta uses it as leverage and has done so previously.

  106. Peter from SA

    For the average Aussie, try HECS or Medicare.

    always pleased to see advocates for user-pays higher education.

  107. Fisky

    Yes, that’s all very well Oldsalt. But the problem is that you repeated at least six items of Labor propaganda on a single thread. I summarised them here:

    -The Pacific Solution “failed” and the boats started up again under Howard
    -Rudd didn’t start the boats (except he did accidentally)
    -The Malaysian Solution was excellent!
    -Scott Morrison has not achieved anything in his portfolio
    -Boats are still arriving, but secretly
    -(with a knowing smile and a nod) Indonesia have something over us!!

  108. Gab

    Morrison is a politician. All politicians are guilty until proven innocent. Don’t give them credit for anything at all, they’ll take it anyway. You can be assured that others lined up the ducks for him out of the public gaze.

    You clearly have never heard him speak or read any of his speech transcripts or heard him in interviews becuase just about every time without fail Morrison gives the accolades to the General heading up OSB and to the Customs and Navy personnel.

  109. Infidel Tiger

    For the average Aussie, try HECS or Medicare.

    Both of which are collapsing under fiscal pressure.

    A third of Australians are so impressed with Medicare they take out private health insurance.

  110. jupes

    … oldsalt! A very disappointing effort.

    True oldsalt.

    You’ve outed yourself as a Labor shill. Next you’ll be telling us Wayne Swan would have given us a budget surplus this year.

  111. Fisky

    Again, compiling and spinning every Labor propaganda item for the last decade, calling Sir Morrison’s credentials into question, and blaming John Howard for boat arrivals. Really.

  112. Gab

    So at what point did this thread become derailed?

  113. Demosthenes

    coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track

    Or the negative externalities that have nothing to do with climate change.

  114. Infidel Tiger

    You’re allowed to derail any thread after 10 comments.

  115. Gab

    You’re allowed to derail any thread after 10 comments.

    Yeah? Says who, mister?

  116. JC

    Or the negative externalities that have nothing to do with climate change.

    So Chinese longevity hasn’t risen with Industrialization, hey? Even with coal burning pollution. There are not trade offs are these, you fucking clown.

  117. Stephan

    Both of which are collapsing under fiscal pressure.

    The most effective and well-designed policies in the world would ‘collapse under fiscal pressure’ if you didn’t bother funding them. There’s an easy solution for that: raise some revenue.

    A third of Australians are so impressed with Medicare they take out private health insurance.

    Which demonstrates an efficient two-tiered system, with both tiers working as intended. Well done.

  118. JC

    The most effective and well-designed policies in the world would ‘collapse under fiscal pressure’ if you didn’t bother funding them. There’s an easy solution for that: raise some revenue.

    At what point, as a percentage of GDP would you say is the top in terms of meeting all the un-met needs.

  119. Infidel Tiger

    At what point, as a percentage of GDP would you say is the top in terms of meeting all the un-met needs.

    Probably 150%.

  120. Shy Ted

    Anyway, back to the point of the thread – free speech vs surveillance powers. I would just love to be able to speak the truth. Islamic immigration has proven to be completely incompatible with the West, everywhere. Whether it’s those migrants or their children and so on is irrelevant. The problem is Islam. Simply replace the numbers with non-Islamic skilled migrants. There won’t be a shortage. Let us say we want the death penalty for the most willful and serious criminals. Let us not be labeled racists or sexists and so on.
    No, forget it. Someone posted that we had become lazy or disinterested. No, we’re just tired from going to work and it has to be done in our spare time whereas the professional opposers in cushy bureaucracies and advocacy groups are paid to advocate. Gently defund the advocacies and the government grants to the subjectively oppressed and discriminated over 5 years and let private enterprise prosper to provide alternative employment. It’s about the amount of time you have to devote to criminal activities. Reduce it, reduce the problem.

  121. jupes

    Or the negative externalities that have nothing to do with climate change.

    True there are those – particle pollutants. Modern coal-fired power stations have these new fangled things called filters. Work their arse off apparently.

  122. oldsalt

    Fisky, I don’t pay much attention to Australian politics and don’t know what the ALP position is. If they even have one. If you want to slip on skimpies and shake pompoms for Scottie please do, just tell me when you’re going to do the splits so I can politely avert my gaze. I’m just not cheersquad material I’m afraid. I’m quite happy to accept your assessment of the domestic Liblab games, it’s just something I’ve never been interested in.

    I don’t want mass unregulated Muslim immigration either and I’ll be pleased when it stops. Eventually, it should be possible for us to compare and contrast this cycle with the last and to hold up score cards. Though I’m sure you’re every bit as concerned about the National Interest as I am, you might be more interested in scoring Lib v Lab, I’m more interested in scoring the shifting power equation between us and Jakarta and what it means for our future in the region.

  123. Fisky

    oldsalt, you may claim to be tired of partisan games, and I’d be more ready to believe that if you hadn’t endorsed every single item on the Labor Party propaganda sheet in the last 10 years. There isn’t a single claim they have ever made about asylum policy that you’ve contradicted.

  124. C.L.

    Did George W Bush get thrown out for being a useless numpty and allowing the largest terrorist strike on US soil to happen on his watch?

    LOL.

    Where to begin.

    9/11 occurred because of the epic, spectacular incompetence of Clinton throughout the 1990s.

  125. C.L.

    Islamic immigration has proven to be completely incompatible with the West, everywhere.

    Correct.

    They have destroyed every European culture with which they’ve come in contact.

    The only good Muslim is the Muslim who abandons Islam.

  126. C.L.

    … but let’s be clear: Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    Ahahahahahahahahaha.

  127. Stephan

    At what point, as a percentage of GDP would you say is the top in terms of meeting all the un-met needs.

    Well we’re around the bottom of OECD for tax/GDP, spending/GDP and relative public service size, while being near the top for health outcomes. So whatever we’re doing wrong, it’s probably not spending too much.

  128. jupes

    Fisky, I don’t pay much attention to Australian politics and don’t know what the ALP position is.

    FMD oldsalt you can’t even fake sincerity.

  129. jupes

    Hey Stephan still waiting for you to detail evidence for “the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track.”

  130. Stephan

    Hey Stephan still waiting for you to detail evidence for “the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track.”

    http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/

  131. Ivan Denisovich

    … but let’s be clear: Kevin Rudd stopped the boats.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/labor_lies_to_claim_credit_for_stopping_the_boats/

    People smuggler blames Abbott:

    ‘’All Australian prime ministers have been chosen for two terms,’’ one people smuggler was recorded saying recently. ‘’Two terms means six years. Without any doubt, for six years, Australia’s door will be shut for asylum seekers.’’

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/whod_know_people_smuggers_or_fairfax_reporter/

  132. oldsalt

    No, not tired of partisan games, just never have been interested in them. Apart from the Malaysia gambit, the Rudd Gillard interregnum was disastrous. As was Keating’s. He allowed the problem to start and declined to take action. Howard inherited his mess and took a strategic decision to place Timor policy ahead of stopping boats. This is a complex and as yet unwritten part of our history and too much for a comments box. Howard and Ruddock conceived of and prosecuted the Pacific solution during a very difficult period for the Nation.

    I should like to hear from Rudd one day on whether he thought the Lombok Treaty would protect us from what transpired. I fear such an admission of bad judgement is beyond him.

    Another untouched, by the media, issue is how the courts and left legal professionals in general conspired to prevent our law being applied to the max to deter smugglers. We could have dismantled the syndicates and choked off their supply of crew, but not with the limp wristed threat of 5 years in a lux jail with work release, English lessons etc. Roxon and Clare bear much responsibility here, especially the former who caved to pressure from Jakarta and sent smugglers home to a welcome and promotion in their syndicates. Result, more boats. The campaign by left lawyers saw adult smugglers treated as minors and sent home. More boats.

    The real story is how we were played by Jakarta and what we should do to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

  133. jupes

    http://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/

    LOL. Where’s the evidence? Look I’ll make it easy for you.

    The RSS satellites show that the world hasn’t warmed for 17 years and 10 months. At the same time atmospheric CO2 has increased by over 10%.

    Point out where the IPCC report debunks those facts. Go!

  134. MemoryVault

    coal is only cheap when you fail to price in the negative external costs which everyone will bearing a generation down the track

    Compared to what? Name me something other than coal, oil, gas or nuke – all canned by you greenies, or hydro – not enough suitable topography here, but also canned by you greenies, that is capable of generating baseload quantity, distributed network grid ready, fixed frequency electrical power, regardless of “negative external costs”, whatever that crap is supposed to mean.

  135. cohenite

    Or the negative externalities that have nothing to do with climate change.

    demos, those real pollution issues you link to have nothing to do with coal grid power but punters burning coal in their grates at home. Your link says that:

    A new study shows that air pollution from coal-burning home heating systems has shortened life expectancy in northern China by 5.5 years.

    This sort of private pollution created the pea soup fogs in England and generations of asthmatic and weak children.

    Grid coal power in UltraSupercritical furnaces not only gets rid of most of most of the nasties of coal but most of the CO2 as well, if you’re concerned about that sort of thing.

    The key to China’s real pollution is getting a reliable and comprehensive grid and some anti-lead devices on their cars. It has nothing to do with gird coal.

  136. Stephan

    The RSS satellites show that the world hasn’t warmed for 17 years and 10 months. At the same time atmospheric CO2 has increased by over 10%.

    The oceans are part of the world last I checked, so, wrong.

    Compared to what? Name me something other than coal, oil, gas or nuke – all canned by you greenies, or hydro – not enough suitable topography here, but also canned by you greenies, that is capable of generating baseload quantity, distributed network grid ready, fixed frequency electrical power, regardless of “negative external costs”, whatever that crap is supposed to mean.

    The idea is to make coal and oil expensive enough so that someone will find something else. No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive because of the obsession with quarterly profits at the expense of all else, including future biospheric carrying capacity.

  137. MemoryVault

    Or the negative externalities that have nothing to do with climate change.

    You really do have to stand in awe of greenie logic, don’t you?
    Greenie posts link to article that claims air pollution in China is caused by people burning coal.
    Why do people in China lug around 20 kilo bags of coal to burn to stay warm?
    Because they don’t have access to electricity to the job cheaper and more efficiently,
    without the pollution.

    And what is self-same greenie trying to accomplish back here at home?
    Why, deny everybody access to cheap, efficient electricity to heat their homes, of course.
    So, pretty soon Aussies too, will be able to lug around 20 kilo bags of coal to heat their homes.
    And enjoy the air pollution that goes with it.

    “Green” is already an accepted synonym for “inexperienced”.
    I reckon pretty soon the word “greenie” will be an accepted synonym for “stupid”.
    Or “stark-raving bonkers”.

  138. Sinclair Davidson

    We should be thinking of the positive externalities fossil fuels provide. As I explained to the no. 2 son recently, burning fossil fuels not only keeps us warm, but it warms future generations too. So even cheaper than we think.

    :)

  139. C.L.

    What the hell happened to this thread?

    Should I read it to find out how Klimate Justice took over the discussion?

    Nah.

  140. jupes

    The oceans are part of the world last I checked, so, wrong.

    This is your rebuttal? A red herring is the best you can come up with? What fact has that debunked? If you are right about AGW you should be able to debunk my point. You can’t even though you have a whole ‘peer-reviewed’ report to refer to.

    No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive blah blah blah …

    No cost increase = cheap power = increased productivity = more jobs = higher standard of living = national progress.

  141. Peter from SA

    The idea is to make coal and oil expensive enough so that someone will find something else. No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive because of the obsession with quarterly profits at the expense of all else, including future biospheric carrying capacity.

    I wish the same market signals could be applied to the labour market. This Stephan is full of great ideas.

  142. cohenite

    The oceans are part of the world last I checked, so, wrong.

    You’re the only troll on this thread stephie so stick around with more of your bullshit. The deep ocean is the AGW equivalent of pixies at the bottom of the garden; that’s where every thing is including the missing heat.

    In fact the oceans are not warming; ARGO shows that at all levels down to 1800 meters. The heat can’t be below that because its leaving the Earth as NOAA satellites show.

    On second thoughts stephie, you’re hopeless; fuck off.

  143. MemoryVault

    The oceans are part of the world last I checked, so, wrong.

    So? CAGW is a “theory” that claims man-made CO2 is heating the ATMOSPHERE.
    The NET flow of energy is FROM the sun, TO the oceans, FROM the oceans TO the atmosphere, and FROM the atmosphere back out TO space. It is not a reversible process, Stephan, not in its entirety, and not in its sum parts.

    So, even IF the oceans were heating – which happens from time to time – it has absolutely SFA to do with your “missing” CAGW-induced, atmospheric heat. Try again.

    The idea is to make coal and oil expensive enough so that someone will find something else. No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive because of the obsession with quarterly profits at the expense of all else, including future biospheric carrying capacity.

    And that, Stephan, is an outright admission that currently there IS NO suitable alternative available, REGARDLESS of “negative external costs”, again, whatever that crap is supposed to mean.

  144. egg_

    future biospheric carrying capacity

    Holy smoking batsh!t, Batman!

  145. JC

    The idea is to make coal and oil expensive enough so that someone will find something else.

    Any example where a tax has hastened technological advancement? Any? I can’t think of one. But the moment a new thing comes along such as fracking which immensely adds to our stores of reserves, the greens scum attempt to block it.

    No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive because of the obsession with quarterly profits at the expense of all else, including future biospheric carrying capacity.

    The obsession with quarterly profits? Loo… no not this old past used date line.

    We need climate justice and we need it now.

  146. JC

    Climate justice. Now! And while we’re at it Palestinian justice too. Those tow things are related.

  147. MemoryVault

    future biospheric carrying capacity
    Holy smoking batsh!t, Batman!

    I think it means sometime in the future we will have little round bionic robots capable of carrying heavy loads for us – like 20 kilo bags of coal for heating, ‘cos we can’t afford electricity.

    If it’s not that, then I’m as stumped as you are.

  148. MemoryVault

    Climate justice. Now! And while we’re at it Palestinian justice too. Those tow things are related.

    And let’s not forget land rights for gay whales.

  149. Stephan

    You’re the only troll on this thread stephie so stick around with more of your bullshit. The deep ocean is the AGW equivalent of pixies at the bottom of the garden; that’s where every thing is including the missing heat.

    ~1500m isn’t particularly deep. Here it is, not too missing when it shows up on a graph clear as day.

    In fact the oceans are not warming

    Lol, according to cohenite freedomlogic™. Tempting but nah, I’ll go with NOAA’s actual data.

  150. Combine_Dave

    OSB is the greatest public policy success in recent Australian history.

    FIFY

  151. Stephan

    And let’s not forget land rights for gay whales.

    Or land rights for land whales – Gina’s birthright to mine shall not be ignored.

  152. MemoryVault

    No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive because of the obsession with quarterly profits at the expense of all else,

    Actually, I’ve invented a device that’s about the size of a cigarette packet (plain packaged of course), that runs on sea water and generates a gigawatt of electricity for ten cents.

    I sitting on it for the moment. I’m waiting for the cost of coal-generated power to double (again) cos I want to maximise my quarterly profits.

  153. Peter from SA

    Climate justice. Now! And while we’re at it Palestinian justice too.

    I don’t think you truly believe that JC. Are you just trying to be popular?

  154. cohenite

    1500m isn’t particularly deep. Here it is, not too missing when it shows up on a graph clear as day.

    Did you read what I wrote numbnuts; I said the ARGO data which began in 2003; ARGO is the only reliable data and even it is so sparse as to be meaningless. Any estimate as to OHC before 2003 is purely ideological and a guess. In the ARGO era there has been no warming.

    Anyway since you trust NOAA then their data showing energy leaving the Earth means that energy can’t be going into the ocean. Christ you’re an idiot.

  155. Aristogeiton

    Stephan
    #1389309, posted on July 20, 2014 at 10:03 pm
    And let’s not forget land rights for gay whales.

    Or land rights for land whales – Gina’s birthright to mine shall not be ignored.

    The troll resents Gina Reinhardt. Quelle fucking surprise. You’re so boring Stephanie. At least she contributes to our economy, unlike you, you jobless tax-eating prick.

  156. Combine_Dave

    I’m more interested in scoring the shifting power equation between us and Jakarta and what it means for our future in the region

    Fear of the yellow peril?

    The solution is easy. Australia should cast it’s nets far and wide and develop relationships with all nations in our region to prevent a relative liliputian harbourer of people smugglers and terrorists from having the ability to harm us and our economy.

    This does largely appear to be the case with our many Asian FTAs and what not (possibly excluding our over exposed live export cattle farmers).

  157. Oh come on

    Is Stephan arguing over things he knows nothing about again?

  158. jumpnmcar

    Can we ultimately blame Gilbert Plass for the origin of the theory in 1955 ?

  159. egg_

    Or land rights for land whales – Gina’s birthright to mine shall not be ignored.

    SfB in his Angus Young schoolboy outfit?
    Very becoming. /sarc

  160. oldsalt

    CD thanks for the interest. There is no equivalent to our ‘Jakarta lobby’ in RI and very little ballast for when relations sour. The live cattle trade was seen as potential ballast. The only real strategic trade is the WA wheat export. CBH formed relationships with some of the worst corrupt Suharto cronies including the Salim Group which owned the Bogasari flour mills. WA wheat was processed into instant noodles which Indonesia then exported to feed Asia. Since the fall of Suharto, CBH has bought mills in Indonesia and can now sell its product to an entity it part owns and has an input on pricing. The relationship with Salim still exists. WA wheat is a strategic industry for both, neither would rush to suspend it during a crisis. Should relations truly reach rock bottom, this is the obvious industry which would be placed in jeopardy.

    You are also correct that RI harbours far fewer asylum seekers than does Malaysia. Again, untouched by media, the illegal movement of people from RI to Malaysia is a strategic industry and another reason why Jakarta has been reluctant to criminalise people smuggling. Both Jakarta and KL have used the illegal people trade across Malacca Straits for domestic and security purposes. It dwarfs the illegal trade to Aus.

    It’s hardly controversial that RI uses people smuggling to leverage us. They did it with the Indochinese exodus in the 70s, superbly handled by Fraser, then again between 94 and 2004.

    Potential conventional threats to our continent must come through the air sea gap, which Jakarta controls. They find it useful to remind us from time to time.

  161. I’m probably being a bit hard – here is the thing; when everyone was arguing science the warmenists were winning, however, they get screwed when you concede the science and argue policy.

    Sinc, I can’t agree. The science and the policy was discussed concurrently, as it should have been. In fact, we were critising Stern in 2006 before AR5 in 2007. And, of course, it was the flakiness of the hockey stick incl. in TAR that made us think that the science was policy-driven in 2005.

  162. wreckage

    The idea is to make coal and oil expensive enough so that someone will find something else. No cost increase = no price signal = no incentive

    It’s so cute when you try to talk economics!

    The incentive, for a perpetually renewable direct substitute for hydrocarbons, is cornering the world energy market until the patent runs out, and becoming the richest person or corporation that ever existed.

    The current tax incentives are, in essence, to spend massive amounts of resources deploying energy sources that aren’t ready for prime time; resources that are then lost for the purposes of application to an energy source that is.

  163. nerblnob

    But policy is the thing that should concern voters and economists.

    It doesn’t matter what you think about global warming or what you call it now.

    The fact is that Australia imposed a suicidally ruinous tax on itself in order to – supposedly – prevent the earth’s temperature from rising. The stated means of achieving this essentially was to make electricity from hydrocarbons more expensive and therefore discourage its use.

    It never had a hope in hell of doing that, so should never have been imposed on those grounds alone.

    Whether the temperature rise modelled was likely or unlikely, significant or insignificant, net benefit or net harm, is irrelevant and can be argued forever. The climate has proved as unstoppable as King Canute’s waves.

    Of course nations that compete industrially with advanced countries like Australia will turn up at conferences and press us to self-harm in this way, without making any significant concessions themselves. Like, doh!

  164. wreckage

    Well we’re around the bottom of OECD for tax/GDP, spending/GDP and relative public service size, while being near the top for health outcomes.

    And whatever we’re doing RIGHT is unlikely to be improved by more spending.

    Listen, “Correlation is not causality” only works to remind you that not all correlations have a causal relationship. It DOESN’T mean you can glibly assert that the causality must be the OPPOSITE of the measured correlation.

    Low tax/GDP, low spending/GDP, some of the best health outcomes on earth? Makes perfect sense to me.

  165. wreckage

    The point is that the outcome of a carbon tax that works must be to decrease the standard of living, because that is exactly its goal; to reduce consumption of everything, all at once. Even then asserting “green energy will take up the slack” fails to state the premise that green energy must cost more, and cannot compete without said tax… and that means, well, what a surprise… reducing the consumption of everything, all at once, by driving up the cost of living.

    A worse approach, or one more hostile to the poor, retired, and working class, is difficult to imagine.

  166. Stephan

    Listen, “Correlation is not causality” only works to remind you that not all correlations have a causal relationship. It DOESN’T mean you can glibly assert that the causality must be the OPPOSITE of the measured correlation.

    You fucked it up dude. I wasn’t stating “the causality must be the OPPOSITE of the measured correlation”, I was replying to an implication that we’re somehow spending too much on social/health policy. I think my refutation stands, we get excellent results for our modest spending – the argument our funding is wasteful in any major area of social or health policy is a non-starter. Just like you.

  167. Combine_Dave

    I was replying to an implication that we’re somehow spending too much on social/health policy. I think my refutation stands, we get excellent results for our modest spending – the argument our funding is wasteful in any major area of social or health policy is a non-starter. Just like you.

    So we spend relatively little on public health (compared to other western nations) and have stellar health outcomes. Sounds like we should stay the course in this regard.

    Any reason why our education outcomes are so shitty despite ever increasing ‘investment’ in this sector by all levels of Gov?

    Compared to much of the world (including those surpassing us educationally) our spending per student is much higher but the results are just not there.

  168. Aristogeiton

    “Modest spending”, huh? Can’t you just tell that Stephanie pays no tax, preferring instead to eat everyone else’s?

  169. jupes

    You fucked it up dude.

    No that would be you Stephan. I’m still waiting for your rebuttal. Here it is again:

    The RSS satellites show that the world hasn’t warmed for 17 years and 10 months. At the same time atmospheric CO2 has increased by over 10%.

    Point out where the IPCC report debunks those facts. Go!

  170. Bribiejohn

    The natural result of more power is more corruption, as is obvious to those who will see!
    Lord Acton realised the truth of this, ” Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.- Lord Acton

  171. Stephan

    So we spend relatively little on public health (compared to other western nations) and have stellar health outcomes. Sounds like we should stay the course in this regard.

    Again, I never suggested otherwise. Just responding to the default catchcry here of ‘too much! Too much!’, when clearly it is not. Australia is a funny place for a libertarian, we’re lightly taxed already, such that realistically there’s not too much more ground to be gained. This blog and its inhabitants would have far more grist for the mill moving to pretty well any other OECD country bar Switzerland or South Korea.

    Any reason why our education outcomes are so shitty despite ever increasing ‘investment’ in this sector by all levels of Gov?

    Shitty teaching qualifications, both in terms of entry requirements and training, play a large part I suspect.

    “Modest spending”, huh? Can’t you just tell that Stephanie pays no tax, preferring instead to eat everyone else’s?

    Someone put a bib on Arispittle, all this dribbling is unseemly.

  172. Stephan

    The RSS satellites show that the world hasn’t warmed for 17 years and 10 months. At the same time atmospheric CO2 has increased by over 10%.

    Jupes, a .gif tells a thousand words.

  173. egg_

    I was replying to an implication that we’re somehow spending too much on social/health policy.

    How many hospital beds does the average windfarm cost?

  174. Aristogeiton

    Stephan
    #1389459, posted on July 21, 2014 at 7:42 am
    [...]
    Someone put a bib on Arispittle, all this dribbling is unseemly.

    Clever rejoinder, tax-eater. About as intelligent as your other “contributions” here.

  175. fry

    Identifying “the yank” at the ABC Drum left site as an ABC employee (young Chip) has inspired him to come haunt you all here for a while in his guise as Stephan.

    Exact same style and bile ..

    Hold a grudge much .. well yes of course he does.

  176. jupes

    Jupes, a .gif tells a thousand words.

    LOL your attempt at a rebuttal proves MY point you twit. It shows global temperatures actually falling over the last 10 years.

  177. Stephan

    LOL your attempt at a rebuttal proves MY point you twit. It shows global temperatures actually falling over the last 10 years.

    Silly billy. My attempt shows this:

    Jupes in 1987: No warming for ten years!

    Jupes in 1998: No warming for ten years!

    Jupes in 2014: No warming for ten years!

    See a pattern of error here?

  178. egg_

    See a pattern of error here?

    An ignoramus keeps posting on the wrong blog?

  179. Aristogeiton

    Yeah, fucknuckle. Tracks perfectly with atmospheric C02 concentrations. Did you find your missing heat yet? Somewhere deep in the ocean, huh? Were it can’t be seen or measured? The metaphysical manifestation of the inscrutable almighty Gaia.

  180. jupes

    See a pattern of error here?

    Yep. Sure do. Lefty obfuscation.

    For a start your link isn’t the RSS graph – the most accurate measurement of global temperature. The RSS graph shows 17 years 10 months of no warming. Your graph only shows 10 years or so.

    Be that as it may, your gif is a lie. No one claims that global temperature hasn’t risen over the last 40 years. Quite clearly it has. However it hasn’t risen for almost two decades despite an increase in atmospheric CO2 of over 10%.

    Surely if there was evidence of global warming you would present it. Instead you have to lie, obfuscate and mis-represent skeptic’s positions. Pathetic.

  181. Token
    I was replying to an implication that we’re somehow spending too much on social/health policy.

    How many hospital beds does the average windfarm cost?

    Are lefties really still crying out for more faulty machinery with high rates of breakng down? What will they say when they inevitably create bush fires when the industrial accidents occur?

    Of course they don’t care about the people, it is all about the Carbon Dioxide (which bush fires release and amazing amount of).

  182. Stephan

    However it hasn’t risen for almost two decades despite an increase in atmospheric CO2 of over 10%.

    Right, and in earlier phases in ‘the escalator’, the temperature hadn’t risen for a decade or so despite increases in C02. And in those phases, there was undoubtedly some right-wing NIMBY speaking a similar line of verbiage. And what happened? The temperature jumped, and they shut up for awhile, only to pipe up again a decade down the track if they could still be bothered holding a hate-candle for the left.

    But I’m sure it’ll be different this time.

  183. Token

    Right, and in earlier phases in ‘the escalator’, the temperature hadn’t risen for a decade or so despite increases in C02.

    Scientists know correlation does not equal causations.

    Mad raving death cultists of course do not need to follow any scientific method of course!

  184. Aristogeiton

    Stephan
    #1389512, posted on July 21, 2014 at 8:59 am
    [...]
    And in those phases, there was undoubtedly some right-wing NIMBY speaking a similar line of verbiage.

    Stephen, if you don’t know what words (or acronyms) mean, don’t fucking use them. You clearly have no idea of the meaning of ‘NIMBY’, for example.

  185. Aristogeiton

    Also, “speaking a line of verbiage”? Say what you mean clearly and simply and you won’t seem like such a fucking idiot.

  186. jupes

    But I’m sure it’ll be different this time.

    17 years 10 months of no warming. An increase of atmospheric CO2 of over 10%.

    You’ve obfuscated. You’ve lied. But you haven’t explained why.

  187. egg_

    Are lefties really still crying out for more faulty machinery with high rates of breakng down?

    The overcapacity (extra turbines) to cover high equipment downtime must eat into the capital outlay?

  188. Stephan

    Also, “speaking a line of verbiage”? Say what you mean clearly and simply and you won’t seem like such a fucking idiot.

    Uhoh, you gonna tell me to get off your lawn next?

    You’ve obfuscated. You’ve lied. But you haven’t explained why.

    Yep, this time is totally different, Jupes! It’s a whole new ball game complete with right-wing physics engine now.

    I’m out this bizzatch! PEACE!

  189. Token

    The overcapacity (extra turbines) to cover high equipment downtime must eat into the capital outlay?

    P-lease, the contracts are bolted down as tight as the de-sal plant contracts ensuring all risk is loaded upon the taxpayers (leading to less money for hospitals, schools, etc).

    The leftards don’t care as they make money with b*****it unnecessary consulting on every stage of the rort.

  190. Aristogeiton

    Stephan
    #1389523, posted on July 21, 2014 at 9:12 am
    Also, “speaking a line of verbiage”? Say what you mean clearly and simply and you won’t seem like such a fucking idiot.

    Uhoh, you gonna tell me to get off your lawn next?

    Very clever.

    I’m out this bizzatch! PEACE!

    How very droll.

  191. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I’m out of this bizzatch! PEACE!

    Don’t bother coming back. Ever.

  192. Token

    I’m out this bizzatch! PEACE!

    The cockroach has scuttled away.

  193. egg_

    P-lease, the contracts are bolted down as tight as the de-sal plant contracts ensuring all risk is loaded upon the taxpayers (leading to less money for hospitals, schools, etc).

    Yes, it’s interesting how they quote the peak capacity – be interesting to see some data of actual online grid output – far from peak capacity, most certainly.

  194. Aristogeiton

    Token
    #1389529, posted on July 21, 2014 at 9:18 am
    I’m out this bizzatch! PEACE!

    The cockroach has scuttled away.

    He’s very hip, Token. He uses words like “bizzatch” and refers to “this muthafuck”. Very cutting edge, and not white bread at all.

  195. Point out where the IPCC report debunks those facts. Go!

    Jupes, Jupes, Jupes. The facts don’t match the IPCC, which is the authoritaah on such matters. Clearly the facts need to change!

  196. cohenite

    stephie, you’re such a dunce; you say:

    Right, and in earlier phases in ‘the escalator’, the temperature hadn’t risen for a decade or so despite increases in C02. And in those phases, there was undoubtedly some right-wing NIMBY speaking a similar line of verbiage. And what happened? The temperature jumped, and they shut up for awhile, only to pipe up again a decade

    The escalator is a bit of statistical nonsense put forward by the idiots at SkS. The escalator purports to show that the sceptics division of temperature into plateaus or steps is false and the trend produced by OLS, that is a straight line, is the correct representation of temperature trend over the whole data period.

    But steps in temperature trend, both up and down, are well documented; see: Ocean heat content and Earth’s radiation imbalance David H. Douglass, Robert S. Knox, Has the climate recently shifted? Kyle L. Swanson Anastasios A. Tsonis, 1963: The break point of the Northern Hemisphere temperature trend during the twentieth century Martin A. Ivanov, and tilian N. Evtimov, GLOBAL TEMPERATURE TRENDS Trevor Breusch and Farshid Vahid etc. David Stockwell’s effort is perhaps a useful starting point if one had an open mind and were interested in the subject and not just regurgitating bullshit picked up at shit sites like SkS.

    Stockwell notes 2 breaks in temperature, in 1976 and 1998, both correlated with prominent physical events. Certainly the breaks are statistically valid and completely inconsistent with CO2 forcing, given the 1998 was a break DOWN in temperature which has been verified by RSS data.

    In short the escalator is a cheap trick designed to influence weak and impressionable minds. You are proof of its success.

  197. Aristogeiton

    cohenite, SkS is da shizznit! Ain’t nobody got time for no published articles, biatch! I’m up out this motherfucker! Peace!

    How am I doing Stephanie?

  198. cohenite

    stephie seems very young.

  199. Gab

    stephie seems very young.

    I know a number of young people who are not as dumb and don’t blithely accept the green/labor bulldust fed to them. Critical thinkers all, unlike stephie.

  200. cohenite

    Yes gab, I meant young as in a state of mind with characteristics such as self-indulgence and moral arrogance as a substitute for reason or appreciation of fact. I guess I meant green or left.

  201. Aristogeiton

    Gab
    #1389618, posted on July 21, 2014 at 11:21 am
    [...]
    I know a number of young people who are not as dumb and don’t blithely accept the green/labor bulldust fed to them. Critical thinkers all, unlike stephie.

    Right you are Gab.

  202. .

    If you take thousands of weather stations with no urban heat Island effect like Gabo Island, it would appear the CO2 output has a negatively correlated relationship with temperatures (which is contrary to known facts of physical chemistry).

    The fact is the IPCC have never considered that the earth radiates heat, let alone solar effects or cosmic effects on climate.

    Also: If climate change causes earthquakes, then it causes cooling events like Mt Pinatubo.

    Stephanie has no answer for these true yet seemingly inconsistent facts.

  203. Dr Faustus

    On ‘the escalator’. One of the orthodoxies of the theory of Anthropogenic Climate Change is that the temperature of the lower stratosphere should steadily fall as a result of the increasing influence of ‘well mixed greenhouse gasses’ cutting off the upwelling radiation. The apparent downward trend of the satellite temperature measurements over the past 30 years is held to be an important proof that the climate modelling is on the right track – because that’s what the major models show.

    Except when you actually look at the data. Then you see that the temperature falls in the lower stratosphere occur after the eruptions of the most recent plinian volcanoes, El Chichon (1982) and Mt Pinutubo (1991), which blasted millions of tonnes of ozone-destroying sulphates into the upper atmosphere. These hiatus events caused step changes after the dust settled, in between which the temperature trend is flat, with a very tight variance. Using the RSS satellite data (fig 6, Channel TLS), for example, the trend from 1994 to 2004 has a slope of ~zero and the change of trend temperature between the current regime and that of 1984 to 1991 was a 0.4K step.

    NASA has spent billions showing us that the models of greenhouse gas driven climate change do not correctly model the radiative balance of the earth/atmosphere system – in a major, fundamental way. And the atmosphere operates in step changes of state driven by externalities.

    Observation, data and statistics are a bugger like that.

    (Apologies for the wonk detail; this is particularly for cohenite’s interest)

  204. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1389654, posted on July 21, 2014 at 11:53 am
    [...]
    Stephanie has no answer for these true yet seemingly inconsistent facts.

    Trust you to say this. Jesus errr… Psychopathy, sorry, climate change is real and I have faith (Heb. 11:1). Get with the program.

  205. cohenite

    it would appear the CO2 output has a negatively correlated relationship with temperatures (which is contrary to known facts of physical chemistry).

    Arguably it has no correlation at all. Frank Lansner did a neat paper showing this lack of correlation over several thousand years based on ice core samples. Lansner notes the 800 year lag between temperature and CO2 is really not a lag at all but a lack of correlation. Frank notes:

    Fig 4. Except for the well known fact that temperature changes precede CO2 changes, the supposed CO2-driven raise of temperatures works ok before temperature reaches max peak. No, the real problems for the CO2-rescue hypothesis appears when temperature drops again. During almost the entire temperature fall, CO2 only drops slightly. In fact, CO2 stays in the area of maximum CO2 warming effect. So we have temperatures falling all the way down even though CO2 concentrations in these concentrations where supposed to be a very strong upwards driver of temperature.

    Also of interest is the relationship between CO2 and temperature this century,

  206. jupes

    Yes gab, I meant young as in a state of mind with characteristics such as self-indulgence and moral arrogance as a substitute for reason or appreciation of fact.

    It’s hard to blame young warmists because they have been bombarded with AGW propaganda since birth. They see Al Gore being awarded a Nobel Peace Prize and Tim Flannery being awarded Australian of the Year. They get lectured by their teachers, movies, television, the media, musicians, the UN and politicians.

    We need to cut them a bit of slack. However, when they have been presented with solid facts by the likes of qualified people such as cohenite and Bruce, as young Stephan has on many occasions, then they need to make a decision: Do I follow the evidence or the ideology? It’s a big decision and it says a lot about them.

    Stephan has just about used up all his slack.

  207. Aristogeiton

    jupes
    #1389686, posted on July 21, 2014 at 12:27 pm
    [...]
    Stephan has just about used up all his slack.

    There’s enough left for his coup de grâce to be delivered without him suffering overly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiaYYhvQRjk#t=326

  208. cohenite

    Stratosphere cooling is a firm prediction of AGW; as the extra CO2 expands the atmosphere also expands upwards and the Characteristic Emission Layer, where the CO2 can finally release its energy into space theoretically causes a cooling at that level because the high CO2 emits more energy than is received from below.

    The lower Stratosphere is not cooling while there is some cooling in the middle Stratosphere. However none of this is consistent with AGW models. Thompson et al explains.

  209. Dr Faustus

    Thanks for that, cohenite.

    Another interesting insight into climate ‘science’. The observations don’t match the prediction of the theory, so, the most probable conclusion is the “observations may be in error“. Eat shit NASA with your crappy satellites, not good enough RSS, UAH, Met Office with your useless processing.

  210. goatjam

    If the Abbott government had half a clue then every time somebody says “The killing of the carbon tax will be paid for by our grandkids” they should respond with “Labors debt and deficit already exists and will be paid for by our grandkids, wont somebody think of the children?”

  211. Ruth Anne

    Hi Sinc, great to read your comments about the suggestion of giving the ATO powers similar to ASIO’s! Like many public servants, many of this lot are completely out of control – abuse of power is an understatement here. Noel Towell of the Canberra Times has written some pertinent articles on this in the last month or so. And here’s a link (3 minute mark onwards) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e0VjfUoK5k to a piece on them.

    It seems their power has twisted their values to the point that it’s ok to oppress Joe Public, and even their own, where it suits. I keep hearing stories of people who’s lives have been destroyed – some so desperate as to suicide – as one prominent lawyer who had the temerity to fight them said ‘and this is not China, but Australia!’

    Surely it’s time to expose and deal with this disgraceful state of affairs?

    An article or two from you and some of your contacts could help build the groundswell against such behaviour from those supposedly serving Australians.
    Thanks again for the article, and all your astute perspectives,
    RuthAnne

Comments are closed.