I’m not sorry

Every now and then I get asked if I regret supporting the Iraq war. I always say “No”.

This is why: I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation:

Militant group Islamic State has ordered all girls and women in and around Iraq’s northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation, the United Nations says.

The “fatwa” issued by the Sunni Muslim fighters will potentially affect 4 million women and girls, UN resident and humanitarian coordinator in Iraq Jacqueline Badcock told reporters by video-link from the Iraqi city of Arbil on Thursday.

That is from the ABC.
I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Moslems, that the overwhelming majority of all people, are appalled by this announcement. The bottom line is this: if our military, or the US military, kill people who think that female genital mutilation is okay then I am not going to criticise them.

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

219 Responses to I’m not sorry

  1. hammy

    if our military, or the US military, kill people who think that female genital mutilation is okay then I am not going to criticise them.

    Capital Punishment for thought crime. Straight out of 1984. Room 101.

  2. JC

    Kero

    Thought crime? They’ve ordered all females, you nimrod. Get off the anti-depression drugs your on.

  3. Gab

    Poor hammy. Comprehensionally challenged. Comprehensively.

  4. Yobbo

    Every now and then I get asked if I regret supporting the Iraq war. I always say “No”.

    This is why: I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation:

    Iraq was way more civilised when Saddam was in charge. That’s kind of the issue here.

    I supported the war at the time too, but it’s impossible now to pretend it did anything but make things worse.

  5. JC

    How is Wally Token going to spin this one? Somewhere, somehow he’s going to blame old white men.

  6. hammy

    I supported the war at the time too, but it’s impossible now to pretend it did anything but make things worse.

    Yobbo’s growing up! Saddam was authoritarian, there’s no doubt. He had to exercise some “tough love” among his subjects, but the volume of slaughter in Iraq was much less during his time.

  7. Infidel Tiger

    The war was great. The bit after sucked arse.

    Let’s keep doing the war thing and leave nation building to those that surrender.

  8. egg_

    How is Wally Token going to spin this one?

    “It’s for their own good”?

  9. Sinclair Davidson

    Yobbo – that is a function of early surrender monkeying.

  10. Aldrydd

    I agree! I felt physically ill when I read the report earlier today….words fail me.

    And Hammy, seriously, sometimes your comments make me laugh they are so absurd, but this one just makes me shake my head in despair.

  11. JC

    I supported the war at the time too, but it’s impossible now to pretend it did anything but make things worse.

    Oh Bullshit. If the Kenyan didn’t pull the troops out those fuckers would be baking in hell. Occupation has lasted 70 years in places like Germany and Japan. The war succeeded. The Kenyan snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

  12. JC

    Yobbo’s growing up! Saddam was authoritarian, there’s no doubt. He had to exercise some “tough love” among his subjects, but the volume of slaughter in Iraq was much less during his time.

    In trading we call that harry hindsight, Kero. Harry has never lost money on a single trade. Ever!

  13. hammy

    I think we can safely say that many tens of thousands of the dead in Iraq would still be alive today if the 2003 WMD debacle hadn’t happened.

  14. oldsalt

    Sinc, fgm may or may not be true, still needs confirmation link

    to the Assyrian International News Agency

  15. Tom

    The Kenyan snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    Obvious to all except the anti-civilisationist retards here.

  16. egg_

    In trading we call that harry hindsight, Kero. Harry has never lost money on a single trade.

    Wunderbar!
    Fitting for after the fact, armchair “courtroom heros”, too.

  17. incoherent rambler

    I am sorry that the west did not roll the troops into Iraq 8 years earlier.

  18. JC

    I think we can safely say that many tens of thousands of the dead in Iraq would still be alive today if the 2003 WMD debacle hadn’t happened.

    No you can’t safely say that at all doofus. All the detractors are basically suggesting that the Arab “Spring” which began a few years ago would magically have avoided Iraq while going full bore in Syria. But wait there’s more. The Syrian regime which also had a strong hold on the population couldn’t avoid the “Spring” but Iraq would have. Why? It’s magic of course.

    What’s going on in Iraq has nothing to fucking do with the Iraq war and all to do with the shit resulting from the “Spring” spilling over across the border.

  19. TerjeP

    JC – your final statement about the Arab Spring is fair and reasonable. But it does not negate the comment made by Hammy that you quote.

  20. incoherent rambler

    James from the open thread -

    “… this means they’re simply bringing free medical care to the populace. Because it’s a religion of peace.”

  21. incoherent rambler

    Can one of the body counters tell me how many Kurdish lives would have been saved if Saddam was dispatched a little sooner?

  22. JC

    Obvious to all except the anti-civilisationist retards here.

    It’s incredible Tom.

    Syria had been at relative peace for ages and the B’ath regime (unlike Saddam’s) hadn’t been weakened by war and trade embargoes Iraq incurred after the first Gulf War. Yet the “Spring” has basically engulfed the place into a multifaceted civil war with perhaps 200,000 dead at the current count.

    A weakened Iraq, with an equal amount of tribal hate would of course have avoided the “Spring” by magic.

    The level of stupid you see at times is seriously fucking discouraging for the future of humanity. We’re not going to die off from gerbil warming. We’re going to croak it as a result of the idiocracy growing larger by the minute.

  23. JC

    But it does not negate the comment made by Hammy that you quote.

    I think we can safely say that many tens of thousands of the dead in Iraq would still be alive today if the 2003 WMD debacle hadn’t happened.

    Really?

    According to The New York Times, “he [Saddam] murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas. He tortured, maimed and imprisoned countless more. His unprovoked invasion of Iran is estimated to have left another million people dead. His seizure of Kuwait threw the Middle East into crisis. More insidious, arguably, was the psychological damage he inflicted on his own land. Hussein created a nation of informants — friends on friends, circles within circles — making an entire population complicit in his rule”.[9] Other estimates as to the number of Iraqis killed by Saddam’s regime vary from roughly a quarter to half a million,[10][11] including 50,000 to 182,000 Kurds and 25,000 to 280,000 killed during the repression of the 1991 rebellion.[12][13] Estimates for the number of dead in the Iran-Iraq war range upwards from 300,000.[14]

    So all told Saddam caused the death of around 2 million people. The second Iraq war caused 300,000 dead.

    Saddam was around for 25 years up until the Gulf War 11, which means he was killing around 80,000 people per year. If the war hadn’t happened assuming the same death count there would have been 1,000,000 more dead under Saddam.

    Yep, it sure looks like Kero is right, hey?

  24. srr

    Sinc, fgm may or may not be true, still needs confirmation link

    to the Assyrian International News Agency

    Are you saying the practice or order, may or may not be true?

    Because the practice certainly is true, and all over the world, including Australia, Muslims order it and it’s done.

    Here, even to baby girls, who are left with the parents who have it done and don’t get convicted for the barbaric crime.

    The same western legal eagles give them a free pass out of respect for the culture of their religion, keep preaching that raising children as Christians is a form of child abuse.

    Bugger the ME, secure our sovereign borders and sort the barbarians and their enablers, already infecting Our Country.

  25. TerjeP

    Sinclair – the pretext for the Iraq war was not primarily humanitarian. It was based on the argument that Saddam had WMD and was a military threat to the US. But just to be clear are you saying the US should now have boots on the ground taking on ISIS? Or just that if they decided to you would be understanding?

  26. srr


    Female genital mutilation ‘more common than reports suggest’, says Pru Goward

    January 02, 2014 10:19AM

    GENITAL mutilation of girls is much more common in Australia and by Australians overseas than authorities can detect, according to the NSW community services minister.

    Pru Goward told ABC Radio this morning that toughening the law on this “hideous” crime was not an option, but said community engagement and education was needed to prevent more young girls being targeted.

    She said anecdotal evidence showed the practice was “more common than the reports would suggest”.

    “It’s so easy to hide within a community that condones it, within a household that condones it,” Ms Goward said.

    Her comments come after a Sydney father was charged with having his then nine-month-old baby daughter allegedly circumcised while abroad in February 2012.

    The alleged procedure was only discovered six months later when the child’s mother brought her to the doctor, police said.

    It is only the second prosecution case in relation to the practice in NSW and believed to be the first time a person has been charged with procuring the procedure while overseas.

    In 2012, eight members of a small religious order in Sydney – including a sheik, a retired nurse and two parents – were charged over the female genital mutilation of two sisters, aged six and seven.

    Their case remains before the courts.

    Ms Goward said the practice was often conducted in “secretive and very well-conspired arrangements” to hide it from the authorities.

    The crime often only came to light when the child suffered a complication from the procedure or there was a marital breakdown.

    Ms Goward said they had “looked and looked” at toughening the laws but felt increasing the penalties would not necessarily stop the crime from occurring.

    “The law is tough enough,” she said. “I think what does need to happen is that our immigration authorities have to get much more vigilant about advising communities that it is not lawful in Australia.

    “We need to change attitudes and culture, that’s a much slower process than changing the law.”

  27. Sinclair Davidson

    Terje – yes, I understand. Nonetheless civilising barbarians isn’t a problem for me. It worked for the Germans and Japanese – it can work for others too.

  28. egg_

    many tens of thousands of the dead in Iraq

    Around 75,000 lives were lost during the period 1979 ““ 2005 due to road traffic crashes.

  29. JC

    GENITAL mutilation of girls is much more common in Australia and by Australians overseas than authorities can detect, according to the NSW community services minister.

    How would Goward know WTF is going on overseas?

    “The law is tough enough,” she said. “I think what does need to happen is that our immigration authorities have to get much more vigilant about advising communities that it is not lawful in Australia.

    Yea like, she admits it’s done in secret, but the communities need to be told its illegal. Is she brain dead?

    “We need to change attitudes and culture, that’s a much slower process than changing the law.”

    How about this novel idea, Prudence? How about not having immigration from places that practice it?

  30. Matthew

    Saddam Hussein was not an Islamic fundamentalist. He was a moderate dictator as Middle Eastern dictators go. Compared to the tyrannies of US allies Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Saddam Hussein was a liberal.

    If you want to advance civilization then look no further than the worlds biggest supporter and financier of terrorism, Saudi Arabia. The destruction of the Baathist regime in Iraq created the power vacuum that is putting Iraq into the hands of radical elements today.

  31. TerjeP

    Sinclair – yes well the Japanese submitted after two atomic bombs were dropped on their country. I suppose that would be a cheaper approach from the US vantage point.

  32. JC

    The destruction of the Baathist regime in Iraq created the power vacuum that is putting Iraq into the hands of radical elements today.

    And the ba’thist regime in Syria? What vacuum was there eggscatly? What vacuum was in Libya?

  33. jupes

    I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Moslems … are appalled by this announcement.

    No doubt at all. In fact we can rest assured that they are planning their protest march as we speak blog.

    Hope they don’t block too much traffic.

  34. jupes

    I suppose that would be a cheaper approach from the US vantage point.

    The dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan was indeed the cheaper approach from the US vantage point. Cheaper in US lives and therefore the moral approach.

  35. oldsalt

    Srr apologies I should have been more specific. I thought the link would have clarified. I was talking of the alleged fatwa not the practice. The site provides updated news on the Christians in Mosul, of whom just 20 families remain there. The report quotes a UN spokesperson stating that ISIS had issued a fatwa to this effect, that others thought it may be propaganda, and that others have tried to confirm it without success thus far. The same UN spokesperson said the practice was something very new to Iraq. All media reports need to be scrutinised and all everything multiple sourced.

  36. JC

    Sinclair – yes well the Japanese submitted after two atomic bombs were dropped on their country. I suppose that would be a cheaper approach from the US vantage point.

    The Iraq war needs to be divided up into various parts. The US never went in there to occupy the place, this idea came later. The running occupation wasn’t costing a great of money from a few years after the major part of the hostilities ceased. They could also have done it the way they run camps in Germany. They could have maintained a presence well away from the population centers and be there to sack down fuckers causing trouble whenever it was required. That part would hardly have added any expense at all except the extra fuel costs ferrying supplies over.

  37. JohnA

    TerjeP #1394831, posted on July 25, 2014 at 11:38 pm

    Sinclair – the pretext for the Iraq war was not primarily humanitarian. It was based on the argument that Saddam had WMD and was a military threat to the US. But just to be clear are you saying the US should now have boots on the ground taking on ISIS? Or just that if they decided to you would be understanding?

    Those WMD were sent to Syria by that same Saddam Hussein, to escape their detection by the ineffective UN inspection corps and to avoid capture when the war began. They remain a threat to the entire civilised world, and a large slab of the uncivilised world also.

    And don’t start with the useless prevarication “What WMD?”

  38. jupes

    Saddam Hussein was not an Islamic fundamentalist. He was a moderate dictator as Middle Eastern dictators go.

    Yeah lovely bloke Saddam. His people loved him. We know this because 100% of them voted for him at elections.

  39. JohnA

    Matthew #1394838, posted on July 25, 2014 at 11:53 pm

    Saddam Hussein was not an Islamic fundamentalist. He was a moderate dictator as Middle Eastern dictators go. Compared to the tyrannies of US allies Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Saddam Hussein was a liberal.

    Come off it Matthew. Did he cause the slaughter of all those people liberally, moderately or brutally?

  40. Matthew

    First off, Germans and Japanese were not barbarians, not even close. Both countries already had political systems amenable to the changes demanded by the victors. Both countries had cultures that made such changes possible. You won’t find that in the middle east.

    There are many that believe that if you bomb Muslims in the Middle East enough they will start to behave like middle class white people with middle class values. It won’t happen. They won’t change and it is sheer delusion to think it will. Besides that it has already been tried and failed miserably.

    JC – you are ignoring the regime change operations that have been going on in Syria, years before the so called Arab Spring. I think you will find the regime change operations far more important in stirring up the revolt in Syria than a self immolating tax and regulations protester in Tunisia.

  41. TerjeP

    JC – I agree with the general thrust of your argument about occupation of Iraq. My objection to the war was mostly around the initial decision. My view on subsequent events is more mixed.

  42. Leigh Lowe

    Yeah lovely bloke Saddam. His people loved him. We know this because 100% of them voted for him at elections.

    To be fair, he hasn’t caused any trouble of late.

  43. Matthew

    JohnA, he slaughtered those people moderately, “by Middle Eastern standards”. It is a rough neighborhood. If it makes you feel better the USA slaughtered many more Iraqis that Saddam Hussein did.

  44. Bertie_Wooster

    Holy shit. Even for the amount of shitposting I’m accustomed to, this blog is becoming a joke.

    Sinc — I’d have expected better from you for the mere sake of moderating the site. To be clear, not so much your article but your subsequent comments. Enough whisky for tonight, I’d say.

  45. oldsalt

    ‘It worked for the Germans and Japanese’

    Sinc you must differentiate between Primary and Secondary cultural values. The latter can be changed within one generation, the former is considerably more difficult and usually requires assimilation into a larger culture or population replacement.

    The British WW2 propagandist Bateson used the Primary and Secondary values approach to designing anti German and Japanese propaganda and this approach has been standard practice since.

    Applying it to M.East Nations/The Islamic world is not the same as Germany and Japan.

  46. Oh come on

    If we must be taxed to billy-o, I’d much rather our taxes go towards ramming bushels of cruise missiles up the clackers of thuggish dictators than, say, transfer payments to Centrelink clients.

  47. Oh come on

    Hey, Bertie. Go concern-troll some other forum. Condescending jackass.

  48. JC

    JC – you are ignoring the regime change operations that have been going on in Syria, years before the so called Arab Spring. I think you will find the regime change operations far more important in stirring up the revolt in Syria than a self immolating tax and regulations protester in Tunisia.

    I’m not ignoring anything at all. You’re suggesting that what’s happening in Syria now couldn’t occur in Iraq if there were Iraq war?

  49. JC

    If we must be taxed to billy-o, I’d much rather our taxes go towards ramming bushels of cruise missiles up the clackers of thuggish dictators than, say, transfer payments to Centrelink clients.

    But think of all the unmet needs and people no longer going to the doc because of a 7 buck co-payment.

  50. Oh come on

    If it makes you feel better the USA slaughtered many more Iraqis that Saddam Hussein did.

    Please provide the data that underpins this assertion.

  51. Matthew

    I’m not ignoring anything at all. You’re suggesting that what’s happening in Syria now couldn’t occur in Iraq if there were Iraq war?

    I am talking about the regime change operations in Syria to overthrow the Syrian government. Those operations started years before the Arab Spring and were destabilizing Syria well before the Arab Spring.

    It could have happened in Iraq too, considering terrorist financing by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, and the illicit weapons shipments by the US via Libya. Whether it would have happened or not is an open question.

  52. JC

    Please provide the data that underpins this assertion.

    He has to have an urge to go to the toilet first. It will be scrawled on the used toilet paper. so you need to wait.

  53. JC

    Whether it would have happened or not is an open question.

    Lets see, it happened in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria.. there were even the beginnings of a revolution in Iran earlier, that was cut down, but Iraq? Naa, that’s an open question. Three dictators were dumped that hadn’t been in war, serious conflict for a long time, nor embargoed (Libya, Tunisia, Egypt) with one still hanging on (Syria) but Iraq wouldn’t have been touched.

  54. Matthew

    Please provide the data that underpins this assertion.

    Are you joking? Sanctions killed half a million children in Iraq, and then Secretary of State Madeline Albright said it was worth it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0WDCYcUJ4o

    In addition to the deaths by sanctions there was the slaughter of Iraqi soldiers that were complying with the terms of the ceasefire, among other violations of the Geneva Convention. The media wasn’t then and isn’t now interested in US war crimes, of course.

  55. srr

    Another of those feel good charities I have less than no time for, Amnesty, doesn’t approve of anyone using the word, “barbaric”, when talking about the BARBARIC ISLAMIC Practice of MUTILATING BABY GIRLS GENITALS.

    Amnesty says using that word, “dehumanizes” those who MUTILATE FEMALES GENITALS.

    http://www.clarionproject.org/analysis/female-genital-mutilation-barbaric

  56. Oh come on

    Matthew, I think it’s reasonable to interpret a failure to provide data to back up your assertion that “the USA slaughtered many more Iraqis that Saddam Hussein did” as a retraction of that assertion.

  57. Oh come on

    Shut the fuck up, Matthew. I just knew you’d come with that sanctions bullshit. Go look ‘slaughter’ up in the dictionary before you waste more of people’s time.

  58. Matthew

    Lets see, it happened in Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria.. there were even the beginnings of a revolution in Iran earlier, that was cut down, but Iraq? Naa, that’s an open question. Three dictators were dumped that hadn’t been in war, serious conflict for a long time, nor embargoed (Libya, Tunisia, Egypt) with one still hanging on (Syria) but Iraq wouldn’t have been touched.

    The Egyptian puppet got dumped by the USA, and was thrown out by his own people (the military, not the Egyptian people). Egypt of today is run by the same groups of people, only Mubarak is out of power.

    Libyan revolution happened after regime change operations and French bombing.

  59. C.L.

    The bottom line is this: if our military, or the US military, kill people who think that female genital mutilation is okay then I am not going to criticise them.

    Right.

    State it positively, though.

    We should praise them for killing ISIS-types by the bushel.

  60. Oh come on

    PS you still haven’t provided any data to back your claims up. Let me be specific, because it appears you lack the wit to discern the kind of data that would adequately support your claim.

    You said that the USA slaughtered many more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein did. Fine. Now what you need to do is provide a bodycount of the numbers of Iraqis slain by Saddam Hussein, and the number of Iraqis slain by the USA. You also need to demonstrate how you arrived at these respective bodycounts.

    Chop chop!

  61. Oh come on

    Again, if you aren’t able to do this, it’s reasonable to consider that you have retracted your assertion.

  62. sdfc

    Three dictators were dumped that hadn’t been in war, serious conflict for a long time, nor embargoed (Libya, Tunisia, Egypt) with one still hanging on (Syria) but Iraq wouldn’t have been touched.

    Yeah the US invasion didn’t destabilise Iraq at all.

  63. oldsalt

    Matthew you will find it in the M.East/Islamic world. You find it among the Christians, who share many of the cultural values of their Muslim neighbours. The Copts are 20% of Egypt’s population, whom the Muslim majoritarians need to embrace if they wish to keep their Nation united. I return to the problem of Primary and Secondary cultural values, and to the extent that pre Islamic Primary values are still functional. In Indonesia, for example, there are competing sets of Islamic values. Traditional Islam, represented by Nahdlatul Ulama contains much pre Islamic and animist belief and is generally regarded as more tolerant than Muhammadiyah which is ‘modernist’ and aims to ‘perfect’ Islamic practice by eliminating traditional superstitions. The latter is inspired by Saudi and Salafism.

    Of course, we have our own competing sets of cultural values, as can be seen in the immigration debate.

  64. srr

    Oldsalt, got ya.

    Sad thing is, ‘official’ fatwa or no, the suggestion alone is as good as the order, and not obeying orders is as good blaspheming Allah and Mo.

    Denying the order’s been given now, is no different to denying they use their own children as human shields against missiles they provoke by firing missiles first.

  65. JC

    Yeah the US invasion didn’t destabilise Iraq at all.

    Define “stabilize”. Iraq was actually pretty stable until the ISIS break in from the Syrian border. It wasn’t Switzerland but it was getting much better.

    Listen doofus, the Iraq war and what is going on can’t in nay way be directly connected. There are no fucking dots.

  66. C.L.

    Conservatively, Saddam Hussein murdered 1000,000 people.

    Madeleine Albright famously said Iraq sanctions alone killed 500,000 Iraqi children.

    She added (on behalf of the Clinton Administration) that “the price was worth it” (Video).

    Saddam Hussein was the late twentieth century’s worst mass murderer.

    Obama’s deliberate loss of the Bush victory in Iraq marks him out as a sociopathic lunatic.

  67. sdfc

    Yeah sure large areas in stable countries get overrun by a few hundred terrorists all the time. Iraq is the epitome of stability.

    It’s an even bigger shithole courtesy of the invasion.

  68. Infidel Tiger

    As if stability of a mass murdering, war mongering dictatorship is something desirable.

    Destabilising those shitholes is the whole reason you attack them.

  69. JC

    Yeah sure large areas in stable countries get overrun by a few hundred terrorists all the time. Iraq is the epitome of stability.

    It’s an even bigger shithole courtesy of the invasion.

    So Libya, Egypt, Syria were all “destabilized” by US invasion were they?

  70. Matthew

    Again, if you aren’t able to do this, it’s reasonable to consider that you have retracted your assertion.

    Nope. Not my job to run errands for random people on the internet, and I am done with free edification.

    If you want to cleave to a revisionist version of history, that is your right.

  71. Fisky

    I understand and sympathise with the idea of shooting extremists where possible, and President Sisi is doing a magnificent job in Egypt, but let’s remember that the Iraq casus belli was actually about preventing regimes from acquiring non-conventional weapons. As we have seen with Iran and North Korea upping their efforts to acquire a nuclear deterrent, with North Korea successfully doing so, the Iraq War did not achieve its aims at all.

  72. sdfc

    The Iraq war may well have destabilised other countries, sure. We can’t say that for certain though. We can say that it did destabilised Iraq.

  73. Fisky

    Now some might claim that Libya gave up its chemical weapons program as a result of the Iraq War. That could well be the case, except the lesson a number of regimes learnt after Gaddafi was shot and sodomised with a large knife in late 2011 is that you should never give up your non-conventional deterrent and you should never trust the US.

  74. JC

    The Iraq war may well have destabilised other countries, sure. We can’t say that for certain though. We can say that it did destabilised Iraq.

    Libya?

    I think the only thing destabilized is your brain.

  75. oldsalt

    Fgm is most widely practiced in Nigeria, among Christians, and supported by many women. If Sinc wants to invade to save them from Boko Haram he might find he has to force the Christians too, because he’s an absolutist who has ‘absolutely no problem with force’ to progress civilisation. To save them, of course. link
    An overview of fgm in Nigeria.

  76. srr

    If you want to cleave to a revisionist version of history, that is your right

    if you want to keep hiding behind endless reviews of history, no one will survive the present to live a just future

    the problem isn’t only there, but here and everywhere, now!

  77. sdfc

    Well Iraq did turn out to be a training ground for insurgents and terrorists. Dumb as nuts.

  78. Matthew

    A humble suggestion for people that want to save civilization. Lets save our civilization. If you don’t like FGM, then don’t bring FGM practitioners here.

  79. wreckage

    Why don’t we ban immigration from groups that practice FGM? Simple fix, and good riddance.

  80. Fisky

    You could certainly stop issuing visas to countries that practice FGM over a certain percentage. That might concentrate minds a bit.

  81. Blogstrop

    The BBC’s Hard Talk program takes Israel to task (not very successfully) for the time-worn and threadbare old “disproportionate response”.

    They, like the ABC, are a disgrace.

  82. Clam Chowdah

    Bravo, Sinclair.

  83. Anne

    Gillard will be all over this. Don’t worry.

    She will CALL. THIS. OUT!

  84. Every now and then I get asked if I regret supporting the Iraq war. I always say “No”.

    Even though the current chaos is a direct result of that adventure?
    Strange………….

  85. Bruce of Newcastle

    Numbers will now of course sign up for genital mutilation, just so he can speak with authority.

    If you like you can have it done surgically, rather than with a rusty knife.

  86. Every dog has its day

    Daniel Pipes has summarized the situation nicely:

    “Removing Saddam Hussein was a realistic and welcome act of international sanitation but repairing Iraq in the face of a liberated, fractured, and ideological Iraqi populace remains beyond the coalition’s will. The coalition gave Iraqis a fresh start; it cannot take responsibility for them nor rebuild their country.” and

    “With the occupation a half-year old in October 2003, I forecast that “the mission in Iraq will end in failure” because the Iraqi motivation to remove coalition forces greatly exceeds coalition motivation to remain. “The US-led effort to fix Iraq is not important enough for Americans, Britons, or other non-Muslim partners to stick it out.”

  87. Numbers will now of course sign up for genital mutilation, just so he can speak with authority.

    You’re displaying your ignorance.
    FGM is cultural/tribal, not religious.
    It is a much bigger problem in Africa than in the Middle East.
    It was not prevalent in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
    It is practiced to some extent amongst the Kurds, who were not favorably disposed towards Saddam.
    Any proposition that Iraq was invaded to restore “civilization” by preventing FGM is absolute bullshit.
    ISIS would never have been possible without the destruction of the Iraqi state by the COW.
    There’s a clear historical parallel between the bombing of Cambodia, leading to the killing fields and the invasion of Iraq leading to the emergence of ISIS.

  88. Bruce of Newcastle

    Ah, all said in a squeaky voice is see. Congrats on your operation Numbers.

  89. John Comnenus

    Every now and then numbers shows us why the Left is so full of dangerous stupidity or deliberate lies.

    You said:
    ‘Any proposition that Iraq was invaded to restore “civilization” by preventing FGM is absolute bullshit.’

    Sinclair didn’t say anything remotely like that. You just made it up. You are full of bullshit.

  90. Mater

    Failure emanated from a number of critical (and badly considered) decisions during the early occupation. Paying the public service but not the members of their military was one such decision.
    It could have been a very different outcome.

  91. Mater

    Yobbo’s growing up! Saddam was authoritarian, there’s no doubt. He had to exercise some “tough love” among his subjects, but the volume of slaughter in Iraq was much less during his time.

    OK Hammy, ‘tough love’ Iraq style.

    Saddam’s son had learned the same way. “Uday told me whenever he seemed weak or squeamish as a child his father would beat him with an iron bar and then force
    him to watch videos of prisoners being tortured.”
    It worked. “Just wait until I become president,” Uday promised, “I’ll be crueler than my father ever was. You mark my words. You’ll yearn for the days of Saddam
    Hussein.”
    Yahia saw victims have their hands and feet drilled through with electric drills. He watched people suspected of bad mouthing the regime have their mouths pulled
    apart until their jaws broke. He was forced to witness the torture of families: men forced to rape their wives in front of their horrified young children and saw a video of
    parents screaming helplessly behind a glass wall in which they could see their naked children in a room with a bee hive, being stung hundreds of times.

  92. Tekweni

    This furphy that sanctions is responsible for the death is nonsense. The state against which the sanctions are imposed is responsible for any deaths within that country. When a huge amount of a state’s resources are used to maintain security services and the military instead of being spent on supporting their own people you cannot blame sanctions.

  93. Tel

    This is why: I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation:

    Do you even try to make that fit with libertarian philosophy? What would a warhawk liberty state look like? How would it operate?

    Militant group Islamic State has ordered all girls and women in and around Iraq’s northern city of Mosul to undergo female genital mutilation, the United Nations says.

    That is rather a consequence of our meddling in other people’s lives rather than the cause, if I remember the sequence of events accurately.

    First we supplied Saddam with weapons to help him fight Iran (well also we wanted to test the weapons), so then we decided that we didn’t like Saddam any more so we interfered again, now we are making excuses to ourselves to interfere a bit more, just to fix up the mess we left behind last time.

    Isn’t this story familiar? Government will step in to “fix” some “market failure” and almost inevitably they break something in the process. Then they gasp, “Oh no, another market failure!” so in they go to fix that as well, breaking more stuff.

  94. Tel

    The Iraq War did not accidently spill over into Libya, the Western powers very actively intervened in Libya to support the rebel forces, and proudly overthrow Gaddafi. No accident about it:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8727076/How-the-special-forces-helped-bring-Gaddafi-to-his-knees.html

    Planning for Mermaid Dawn – Mermaid is the Libyan nickname for Tripoli – began three months earlier when groups of young male volunteers left their homes in Tripoli and travelled to Benghazi to learn the art of insurgent warfare from an international force of covert units composed of the British SAS and MI6 agents and troops from the French, Qatar and United Arab Emirates special forces.

    As well as training the rebels, the British government also covertly supplied 1,000 sets of body armour, advanced telecommunications equipment and night vision goggles.

    For weeks on end the Libyan volunteers were taught weapon training, street fighting and sabotage in a series of disused compounds across the city. While the rebels trained, hundreds of weapons, tons of ammunition and communications equipment were smuggled into Tripoli and hidden in secret arms dumps.

  95. C.L.

    … the Iraq casus belli was actually about preventing regimes from acquiring non-conventional weapons.

    No it wasn’t.

    The Iraq Resolution listed a dozen casus belli, of which WMD was only one.

    You’re repeating a left-wing propaganda falsehood.

  96. Tel

    A whole bunch of links about British involvement amongst the Libyan rebels.

    http://www.eliteukforces.info/uk-military-news/240811-uksf-libya.php

  97. The Iraq Resolution listed a dozen casus belli, of which WMD was only one.

    You can’t count.
    There were direct references to weapons in three of the twelve.

    1 – Iraq’s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 ceasefire agreement, including interference with U.N. weapons inspectors.
    2 – Iraq “continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability” and “actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability” posed a “threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region.”
    4 – Iraq’s “capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people”.

    But then the Right have never been good with facts.

  98. old bloke

    I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation

    There will be no civilisation in Iraq or any other M.E. hell-hole as long as Islam remains the dominant ideology. “Nation Building” is the most stupid of ideas imaginable, you can’t impose a civil society on people who are guided by the principles of a 7th century warlord. Same applies to Afghanistan, that country will also crumble once western forces leave. Why should the west spill the blood of its youth and empty our treasuries for no good reason?

    Leave them alone, and don’t let them into our countries.

  99. Demosthenes

    Thank your local deity of choice, turns out the fatwa story was fake. As if we needed more reason to want these people stopped or killed! What they’ve done so far is plenty enough reason. It’s sickening that they have twitter accounts.

  100. cohenite

    yobbo:

    Iraq was way more civilised when Saddam was in charge.

    Several others have made similar bullshit statements about Hussein.

    Hussein was a monster. The Iraq-Iran war was the biggest, by any measure, post WW11. When he left Kuwait he set fire to over 300 oil-wells which burnt for 2 years. He drained the Southern Iraq marshes, an area of 7000 Sq kilometres; those 2 acts alone make him the World’s worst real environmental vandal.

    He used gas on the Kurds and life in Iraq with him and his voracious sons in charge would have been hell.

    No doubt ISIS and every other form of non-moderate muslim group currently running around like banshees will have particular qualities worse than Hussein and vice-versa. The common denominator is islam.

  101. kae

    Old Bloke

    Leave them alone, and don’t let them into our countries.

    Add to that:

    Watch them carefully, if they become a threat to us then intervene.

    No matter what is done about the situation there will always be those who are not satisfied with what is done.

  102. cohenite

    numbers:

    You’re displaying your ignorance.
    FGM is cultural/tribal, not religious.
    It is a much bigger problem in Africa than in the Middle East.
    It was not prevalent in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.
    It is practiced to some extent amongst the Kurds, who were not favorably disposed towards Saddam.
    Any proposition that Iraq was invaded to restore “civilization” by preventing FGM is absolute bullshit.
    ISIS would never have been possible without the destruction of the Iraqi state by the COW.
    There’s a clear historical parallel between the bombing of Cambodia, leading to the killing fields and the invasion of Iraq leading to the emergence of ISIS.

    You’re really john pilger aren’t you numbers.

  103. Roger

    I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Moslems, that the overwhelming majority of all people, are appalled by this announcement.

    I’m sure the Muslims you work with would, Sinclair, representing the Western educated cultural elite of their countries of origin, but the overwhelming majority? One would hope so, but one sees little evidence of widespread condemnation of this or other extreme policies of Islamists from the Muslim world. One suspects there is a heart of darkness in Islam that the West simply cannot comprehend. Btw, the fatwa is not confirmed, but it was a policy of ISIS before they established a Caliphate.

  104. john constantine

    once the hard winter is over, the culture is to get ready for raiding.

    once the warm weather lets you move freely outdoors, instead of beach and barbecues, there is fighting season.

    cultural traditionalists are just using western transport systems and weoponry to fit more into the age old way of doing things. the targets may change, but the culture is unchanged

    now we have a system where you can hop on a plane, and fly from australia to the ‘free fire zone’ for open season on the target tribe, kill away, hop back on the plane and return to australia to recover your strength,breed more fighters for the future, and do it all protected by the australian rule of law. if wounded, the australian medical system will patch you up again for next year.

    one jihadi on the disability pension with a dozen kids is more successful than a dozen inner city millionaire swampy couples with one child each, because when one of his kids marries one of theirs, his family gets to inherit the swampie mansion, and the grandchildren will be raised ‘the right way’.

  105. john constantine

    world war one bought industrial slaughter to western warfare.

    the arab spring is using twenty-first century communications,logistics and weoponry to industrialise raiding season.

    instead of riding a donkey to raid the neighbors mud hut, then return in time for the crops, you can fight all night online,or fly half the world in a day for raiding.

  106. Frederic

    If it was such a great idea and the only problem was Obama pulling out troops I breathlessly await the next positive military actions by Australia which should take place in Iraq (again), Syria, the Sudan, Pakistan, Afghanistan (again), Southern Morocco, Mali and North Korea just for starters. Who here plans to volunteer?

  107. Frederic

    I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Moslems, that the overwhelming majority of all people, are appalled by this announcement.

    LOL. How much time have you spent in the Muslim world?

  108. Andreas

    As if stability of a mass murdering, war mongering dictatorship is something desirable.

    It depends, IT. One of the unintended (but predictable) consequences of Bush’s removal of Saddam was that he removed a key protection for the Christians in Iraq – Saddam, being Sunni, needed Christians neutral so he could govern over the majority Shia, and so Christians in Iraq were relatively safe under him. The expulsion of the Christians in Mosul is just a continuation of the violence against Christians that was unleashed with Saddam’s removal.

    See for example this article from 2008: Iraq: Worse for Christians Now Than under Saddam Hussein

    The Reverend Canon Andrew White, affectionately known as The Vicar of Baghdad, says the situation for Christians in Iraq is “clearly worse” than under the Saddam Hussein regime, toppled by US and Coalition forces in 2003.

    In a segment of the CBS news program 60 Minutes, originally broadcast on Dec. 2, 2007, updated June 26 and aired on June 29, 2008, correspondent Scott Pelley asked Canon White: “You were here during Saddam’s reign. And now after. Which was better? Which was worse?”

    “The situation now is clearly worse” than under Saddam, White replied.

    “There’s no comparison between Iraq now and then,” he told Pelley. “Things are the most difficult they have ever been for Christians. Probably ever in history. They’ve never known it like now.”

    In modern times, under Saddam, Christians were treated much the same as Muslims; Saddam’s right hand man, Tariq Aziz, was Christian, Pelley said.

    “Before the war,” said Pelley,”it’s estimated there were about a million Christians in Iraq. They were a small minority, but free to worship, free to build churches, and free to speak the ancient language of Jesus, Aramaic. But, after the invasion, Muslim militants launched a war on each other and the cross.”

    On Sunday, Aug. 1, 2004, five churches were bombed. The Iraqi Christian community, which had survived invasions by Mongols and Turks, was driven out under American occupation.

    No one can be sure, said Pelley, but White estimates most of Iraq’s Christians have fled or been killed. Those still here are too old, too ill or too poor to run.

    Many of Iraq’s Christians fled to SYRIA where they would have been relatively safe under Assad for similar reasons they were relatively safe under Saddam. Poor bastards. And now America arms Assad’s enemies and in-so-doing again a Christian power inadvertently works to eliminate Christianity from the Middle East.

    Saddam was a monster, yes, but he was mostly killing Shia Muslims – horrible, no doubt, but something that has been going on for more than 1,300 years in that part of the world and an entirely alien conflict to us in the West. Not something we should have gotten involved in.

  109. Leo G

    You’re displaying your ignorance.
    FGM is cultural/tribal, not religious.
    It is a much bigger problem in Africa than in the Middle East.

    The four main law schools of Sunni Islam in the Middle East differ on FGM. Hanafis don’t regard female circumcision as “sunnah”, the Maliki and Hambali schools recommend it on religious grounds, and the Shafai’i school holds that it is obligatory.
    The Shafai’i is the dominant law school in the Hejaz, Indonesia, Iraqi Kurdistan, Jordan, Palestinian Territories, Syria and Yemen, and surveys in some of those areas have shown that it is still widely practiced.
    FGM is cultural/tribal AND religious.

  110. Frederic

    Such rubbish that FGM is a geographical thing. Jews in Iraq never practiced it.

    Going to war in Iraq is like me moving to Western Sydney to mediate.

  111. Tel

    American involvement in Libya under Obama. Same Obama who was anti-war as a senator, but in many ways not the same Obama either.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/30/america-s-secret-libya-war-u-s-spent-1-billion-on-covert-ops-helping-nato.html

  112. Tel

    now we have a system where you can hop on a plane, and fly from australia to the ‘free fire zone’ for open season on the target tribe, kill away, hop back on the plane and return to australia to recover your strength,breed more fighters for the future, and do it all protected by the australian rule of law. if wounded, the australian medical system will patch you up again for next year.

    Yeah that’s exactly what happens, and this has to stop as well.

  113. Roger

    Yeah that’s exactly what happens, and this has to stop as well.
    Not to mention the subsidies our jihadists get courtesy the tax payer.
    Just how do they afford the flights and associated costs of travel anyway?
    I dare say they pass the hat around in their community – I hope ASIO is on to that.

  114. tomix

    Tekweni @ 8.32am:

    This furphy that sanctions is responsible for the death is nonsense. The state against which the sanctions are imposed is responsible for any deaths within that country. When a huge amount of a state’s resources are used to maintain security services and the military instead of being spent on supporting their own people you cannot blame sanctions.

    Is this parody?

  115. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Sickening. Just totally barbaric and intended as a big statement of opposition to Western Civilisation. They are actively seeking our outrage over this. If we don’t see some genuine and active worldwide Muslim condemnation of this then the flag of war really has been raised against us. If so, we should act accordingly and refuse to give Muslims a place or a hearing in our civilisation.

  116. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Yeah that’s exactly what happens, and this has to stop as well.

    So many things have to stop. Including refusing to allow us to speak our minds when it comes to the current provisions of the Racial Discrimination Act 18c, with particular regard to Muslims in Australia. I hope that this recent ‘announcement’ about FGM brings a few of the Feminist Sisterhood to heel, especially regarding imposing criminal sanctions on offenders here, but don’t hold your breath on that one.

  117. blogstrop

    The feminist sisterhood are way too busy pursuing their academic and media careers and chasing each other for lurv.

  118. cohenite

    I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Moslems…are appalled by this announcement

    As long as this belief in moderation within islam prevails in the Western elites and political classes things like this will keep happening.

    The questions are not being asked let alone answered; for instance what motivates people to such barbarism; atrocities occur especially in war but these are systemic. What is it about islam which produces these actions and mindsets; we’ve had the rational reasons, blowback etc; none explain the psychology involved. Meme and Game theory would be appropriate places to start.

  119. Roger

    They are actively seeking our outrage over this.
    I don’t think they care a jot about the Western response, Lizzie, they are simply exerting control over their womenfolk like the barbarians they are. But you are right about this being Islam being incompatible with Western civilisation. My fear is that our political class will not realise this until it is too late.

  120. Craig Mc

    More mass-murdering dictators dancing on gibbets please.

  121. blogstrop

    What is it about islam …

    Domination of women (no probs there with the fem sisterhood or the whining left media) and constant antagonism, upping of the ante and abyss-edge-acrobatics against everyone else including other tribes and branches of their so-called religion – aka political control system.

    It’s a mad, loopy version of who dares wins.
    Even when they lose.

  122. Toiling Mass

    Numbers thinks FGM stands for Frenetic Genital Manipulation.

    I couldn’t be bothered with him.

    He can just play with himself.

  123. cohenite

    My fear is that our political class will not realise this until it is too late.

    Already happening; the left and the filth embrace the diversity of islam while the conservatives are impotent.

  124. Zatara

    First off, Germans and Japanese were not barbarians, not even close.

    The ignorance illustrated by that statement is simply appalling.

  125. Gab

    What is it about islam …

    Brainwashing from day one; severe punishments if one doesn’t adhere/strays from the cult; every thought is determined by ‘what would Mo do?”; questioning the cult is not allowed.

  126. bleh

    Catallaxy is really jumping the shark lately.

  127. ella

    Sinc is the Doomlord, but he might have been too young to remember when the mercenary Mike Hoare and a group of ex-South African soldiers tried a coup d’état in the Seychelles.

    Didn’t South Africa make it illegal for a South African to become a mercenary after this event?

    Why can’t becoming a mercenary be illegal in Australia?

    I rarely hear the word “mercenary” used.

  128. Roger

    Why can’t becoming a mercenary be illegal in Australia?
    It is, ella: the Crimes (Incursions and Recruitment ) Act makes it illegal for Australian citizens to travel abroad and take up arms against a foreign government or to finance such endeavours. If any “Australian” jihadists return to Australia from Syria or Iraq expect them to be charged under the provisions of that Act (let’s hope they save us the bother and remain there, dead or alive). I wouldn’t be surprised to see more arrests for financing the jihadists too.

  129. Roger

    I should have added that the law does not apply to Australians who enlist in the military forces of legitimate governments: IDF, French Foreign Legion, British Army, etc., it applies to irregular forces engaged in subversive activities,

  130. HRT

    Hello 17….

    You wrote: “FGM is cultural/tribal, not religious”.

    I remember watching a Saudi cleric on the English language TV station in Riyadh advising that FGM was not required by Islam but, that Islam agreed with and supported the practice.

    Try Googling female circumcision and you will find references which say it is and is not required by Islam. Your claim that it is not religious is very wobbly.

    While Newton had his Third Law of Motion, Islam has its Third Law of Islam namely: For every authoritative statement in Islam there is an equal and opposite statement.

    Your claim there is no religious requirement for female circumcision appears to be one of them.

  131. stackja

    Germany and Japan have held elections and for all their faults they seek democracy. Saddam never held a real election. Iraq held elections now the terrorists want a dictatorship. FGM is just another form of dictatorship.

  132. Matthew

    Iraq under Saddam wasn’t wholesale slaughter. Yes the government of Saddam Hussein would kill you if you took up arms against the government but for most people it was business as usual.

    The power of post Gulf war propaganda is astounding. Iraq had previously been considered among the most liberal of Arab Muslim States. Women weren’t forced into specific modes of dress, ethnic and religious minorities had basic rights and protections denied to them elsewhere in the Arab Muslim world, such as Saudi Arabia which are somehow considered the ‘good guys’ by the MSM.

    If you are not talking about Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar, then you are not serious about fighting terrorism. It is that simple. That is my litmus test for media people and ‘experts’ on terrorism. If they are always pointing the finger at Saddam Hussein or Bashar Assad as sponsors of terrorism and ignoring where 90% of the terrorists financing comes from, then they are lying or ignorant.

  133. Gab

    You really are a know-nothing nutjob, Matthew. Try reading to educate yourself some.

  134. Ellen of Tasmania

    I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation:

    I, too, would like to know how Sinc reconciles this with his libertarian halo. I thought that the principle of non-aggression was fundamental to libertarian thought.

    I know we no longer consider ourselves a ‘Christian nation’, but it is terrible that the West’s involvement in the ME is making a nightmare for those Christians still remaining. There were a number of classical, unapologetically Christian schools operating in Iraq before the war. Many Muslims sent their children to those schools because of the quality of education.

    My ancient ancestors were barbaric. Something changed the culture. Culture really matters. You become like what you worship.

  135. Matthew

    You really are a know-nothing nutjob, Matthew. Try reading to educate yourself some.

    Fact free ad hominem attack.

    15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi. Most terrorist financing comes from the Saudi Arabia. That is a fact.

  136. Ellen of Tasmania

    Try reading to educate yourself some.

    It seems to depend a great deal on where and what you read and what you are willing to believe. The MSM in the west is no longer reliable, so where do you turn to find out what is true? Who do you trust?

  137. Matthew

    I, too, would like to know how Sinc reconciles this with his libertarian halo. I thought that the principle of non-aggression was fundamental to libertarian thought.

    I found out the hard way that many people here do not hold to the non initiation of aggression principle. There is a lot of “inalienable rights for me but not for thee” going on here.

    As for Sinclair, I don’t know. I do know that a lot of libertarians have a blind spot when it comes to Muslims. Perhaps he is Randian in outlook. Ayn Rand didn’t believe that Arabs had any rights, including property rights, at all.

  138. Marion of the Glades

    Further to Matthew and Ellen’s point, I too ask the obvious: how come it’s OK to have no principles when it comes to Muslims?

  139. oldsalt

    Demos, this is how strategic rumour and propaganda works. By identifying the primary and secondary cultural values of a target and tailoring information to pre-existing bias. You don’t have to be stupid to be sucked in. It works with politicians and other decision makers too. eg democracies are vulnerable because of a bias towards human rights. The boats saga, three times over, is one example.

    In this particular case ie the alleged fgm fatwa, it demonstrates how UN staff can be ‘captured’ by local political elements and agendas and as a credible source to disseminate the propaganda. The UN often allows itself to lose neutrality, and public perception of neutrality, in conflict zones. This is what happened prior to the murder of UNHCR staff in Atambua in 2000.

  140. oldsalt

    Sorry typo, that should read ‘and used as a credible source.

  141. oldsalt

    ‘I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation’

    Let’s hope someone in Beijing doesn’t say this with regard to us in the future, eh Sinclair?

  142. Leo G

    I, too, would like to know how Sinc reconciles this with his libertarian halo. I thought that the principle of non-aggression was fundamental to libertarian thought.

    Fundamental to Libertarian thought are commitments to both liberty and to private property. The commitments can conflict. Property can limit or protect freedoms.
    Ayn Rand believed that civilisation increases the value of both, and made broad judgments about some societies thereby having a greater right to the benefits of civilisation. The belief seems reasonable, her judgment seems, to me, flawed.

  143. Oh come on

    To the hapless Matthew:

    Nope. Not my job to run errands for random people on the internet, and I am done with free edification.

    If you want to cleave to a revisionist version of history, that is your right.

    You don’t really understand how this whole logical process thing works, do you? You made a preposterous assertion upthread. I asked you to support your assertion with evidence. Seeing as though you made the assertion, it is incumbent upon YOU to subtantiate this, not me.

    Since you’ve failed to substantiate your assertion, you’ve voided it. As a consequence, the only person here who is engaging in historical revisionism is YOU, dummy.

    Now go and sit in the corner and have a good think about what you’ve done.

  144. Nanuestalker

    Every now and then I get asked if I regret supporting the Iraq war. I always say “No”.

    Which one? (Besides neither was about FGM)

  145. stackja

    Nanuestalker
    #1395326, posted on July 26, 2014 at 5:22 pm

    Every now and then I get asked if I regret supporting the Iraq war. I always say “No”.

    Which one? (Besides neither was about FGM)

    Saddam’s last stand. FGM is what the present terrorists want. Maybe Saddam would have endorsed FGM if it was excuse to continue in power.

  146. Matthew

    Oh come on – the massacre of retreating soldiers and deaths of children by sanctions is a matter of public record. I am not your gopher. The information is out there go and find it. Your other objection is that deaths by sanctions don’t meet the technical definition of slaughter. You are just splitting hairs with this objection.

    To overcome the objection then, let me say that the US government is responsible for a far larger amount of Iraqi deaths than Saddam was with his occasional purges and civil conflicts. Only a Neoconservatives dead-ender would deny it.

  147. Gab

    Maybe Saddam would have endorsed FGM if it was excuse to continue in power.

    Yeah, good old Sadam, legalised “honour killings” he did. Angel on earth, he was.

  148. stackja

    Matthew
    #1395330, posted on July 26, 2014 at 5:26 pm

    Saddam was a saint?

  149. tomix

    oldsalt@ 12.01am-

    On FGM in Kurdistan:
    The report quotes a UN spokesperson stating that ISIS had issued a fatwa to this effect, that others thought it may be propaganda, and that others have tried to confirm it without success thus far. The same UN spokesperson said the practice was something very new to Iraq.

    Something wrong there. From UNICEF:

    Iraq, Iraqi Kurdistan (72.7% prevalence (excluding Dohuk), Type I and IIFemale genital mutilation is prevalent in Kurdish region of Iraq, with FGM rates exceeding 80% in Garmyan and New Kirkuk. In Arbil Governorate and Suleymaniya Type I FGM is common; while in Garmyan and New Kirkuk, Type II and III FGM are common…

  150. cohenite

    And ISIS are loving unicorns?

    Your point? Hussein was a bastard; ISIS are toilet scum; what’s the common denominator: islam!

  151. Tel

    15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi.

    I tried explaining this and was called “truther” by someone who not only obviously hadn’t even glanced at the official story, but who sees truth as a term of abuse.

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/03/02/russia-on-the-way-to-the-oecd/comment-page-1/#comment-1210254

    And that guy probably votes too.

  152. cohenite

    I do know that a lot of libertarians have a blind spot when it comes to Muslims.

    Yeah, the author of this thread thinks the overwhelming majority of Moslems…are appalled by this announcement. Is that what you mean?

  153. Leo G

    The information is out there go and find it. Your other objection is that deaths by sanctions don’t meet the technical definition of slaughter. You are just splitting hairs with this objection.

    There have been fewer than 200,000 violent deaths of Iraqis since the 2003 Iraq War. There were some 500,000 violent Iraqi deaths in the Iran-Iraq War.

  154. Nanuestalker

    When do you think Australia will organise a coalition of the willing to invade Indonesia to end FGM? It doesn’t matter that FGM practice there isn’t state sanctioned, we have to advance civilization as it’s the progressive thing to do!

  155. Mater

    ‘I have absolutely no problem with the use of of force in progressing civilisation’

    Let’s hope someone in Beijing doesn’t say this with regard to us in the future, eh Sinclair?

    Which is why you should always hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  156. tomix

    C.L. –
    C.L.

    #1394892, posted on July 26, 2014 at 12:55 am

    Conservatively, Saddam Hussein murdered 1000,000 people .

    Madeleine Albright famously said Iraq sanctions alone killed 500,000 Iraqi children.

    She added (on behalf of the Clinton Administration) that “the price was worth it” (Video).

    Saddam Hussein was the late twentieth century’s worst mass murderer

    So, who was the mass murderer responsible for the 500,000 dead children?

  157. tomix

    There have been fewer than 200,000 violent deaths of Iraqis since the 2003 Iraq War. There were some 500,000 violent Iraqi deaths in the Iran-Iraq War.

    You’re into real estate aren’t you, Leo G?

  158. Oh come on

    Oh come on – the massacre of retreating soldiers and deaths of children by sanctions is a matter of public record. I am not your gopher. The information is out there go and find it.

    You just don’t get it, do you? Stop acting as though I’m placing an unreasonable impost on you – it isn’t my job to find the data to substantiate your assertion for you. It’s your job. You made the claim, so you back it up. Or else it’s fishwrap.

    If anyone’s just tuning in now, Matthew’s claim was that the USA slaughtered many more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein did.

    Last chance for you to overcome your inexplicable aversion to substantiating your claim and salvage some credibility, Matthew.

  159. Leo G

    You’re into real estate aren’t you, Leo G?

    The 200,000 Iraqi children who were alleged to have died as a result of sanctions was a myth. Albright and others used the myth, based on a tortuous argument by Walter Russell Mead, to justify the Iraq War.

  160. oldsalt

    Correct Tomix. Things wrong there, among others 1.The UN spokesperson had been ‘captured’ by a Kurdish propaganda agenda 2. The journalist has forgotten the meaning of multiple sourcing and research.

    Mosul Christians need the Kurds for protection, for the time being. However, they won’t forget that Kurdish militias were responsible for much of the Ottomans’ genocide/massacres of Christians in 1915. And some people here have forgotten that Iraqi Kurds fought for Iran during the Iraq Iran War.

  161. Oh come on

    Come on, Matthew. How much more red carpet do you need laid down for you? If the numbers are as readily available as you claim, it should be a cinch for you to present them here and verify your claim beyond reproach.

    Er…Matthew?

  162. tomix

    How rosy was pre Saddam Iraq?

    The British occupation of Iraq (1920-1932

    In the 1920s, when Britain held a mandate from the League of Nations (predecessor of the United Nations), British occupational forces, under the command of Arthur Harris, used mustard gas and delayed action bombing to suppress Iraqi resistance to British rule, leading to numerous civilian casualties.[1]

    The Monarchy [1932- 1958]:

    Repression and exodus of Jews during the monarchy

    In 1948 the Penal Code of Baghdad was amended, “adding Zionism to other ideologies and behavior (communism, anarchism, and immorality) whose propagation constituted a punishable offense. Laws in 1950 and 1951 the [sic] deprived Jews of their Iraqi nationality and their property in Iraq, respectively.”[4]
    In a brief period from 1950 to 1951, over 120,000 Jews fled the country for Israel

    Abd al-Karim Qasem and the “Free Officers” Regime (1958-1963):

    Aware of plotting for a coup by officers opposed to Qasim’s increasing links with the communists, Qasim had his communist allies mobilize 250,000 of their supporters in Mosul in March 1959. The coup attempt never materialized, but the communists massacred nationalists and some well-to-do Mosul families…… Baath Party leaders decided assassination was the only way to dislodge Qasim. Their attempt to kill him, led by[19 y.o.] Saddam Hussein, failed while injuring Qasim, and the dictator reacted by aligning himself more with the communists ….. by 1960 and 1961, Qasim decided the communists had become too strong and he moved against them, purging communists from sensitive government positions, cracking down on trade unions and on peasant associations, and shutting down the communist press.[13]

    Various regimes:
    The early Baathist regime (1968-1969)

    When the Baathists came back to power, two men, Saddam Hussein and Bakr……. by 1969 Saddam “clearly had become the moving force behind the party.”[14]

    Ethnic conflicts

    Human rights violations in Iraq often came from conflicts between the country’s rulers and members of distinct ethnic communities, especially the Kurds and Shiite Arabs, although Sunni Arabs, members of the minority that filled the top positions in the regimes after 1958 and through Saddam’s years in power, could feel the wrath of the rulers for reasons unrelated to ethnic conflict .[2

    The Country was a nuthouse due to “Bomber” Harris bombing and Mustard Gassing peasants there in the twenties. And The Queen unveiled his statue in Hyde Park.

    Where’s the statue for Saddam Hussein, who brought stability and prosperity to a secular Iraq?

  163. tomix

    Wake up to yourself, Oh Come On. Madeleine Albright herself said the death of 500,000 Iraqi children had been ‘worth it”. and I won’t even mention the carpet bombing of Belgrade for 78 days.

  164. Oh come on

    Jam a crap in it, tomix. Your lionising of tyrants is sickening.

  165. tomix

    DVA, 2007: Gulf War Veterans-

    System reports the following:

    Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846
    – Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
    – Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

    Total “Undiagnosed Illness” (UDX) claims: 14,874
    Total number of disability claims filed: 1,620,906
    - Disability Claims amongst Deployed: 407,911
    - Disability Claims amongst Non-Deployed: 1,212,995

    Percentage of combat troops that filed Disability Claims 36%
    U.S. use of Depleted Uranium Weapons:

    From a victors perspective, above any major war in history, The Gulf War has taken the severest toll on soldiers.

    More than 1,820 tons of radio active nuclear waste uranium were exploded into Iraq alone in the form of armor piercing rounds and bunker busters, representing the worlds worst man made ecological disaster ever. 64 kg of uranium were used in the Hiroshima bomb

    Birth defects:
    So far more than one million people have been slaughtered in the illegal invasion of Iraqi by the U.S. Birth defects are up 600% in Iraq – the same will apply to U.S. Veterans.
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2007/09/23/department-of-veterans-affairs-reports-73-thousand-
    Of course none of this would worry armchair warriors like Oh come on, who don’t fight and die in the wars they foment and glorify.

  166. Oh come on

    tomix, you hysterical loon. Why don’t you calm down and review what I’ve written on this thread before you go putting words into my mouth?

  167. tomix

    I’ll summarize your position on war with the arabs, Oh come on.

    “Let’s send someone else over there to jam a heap of Cruise Missiles up their arse, because I say so[ substitute Russians for arabs as needed].”

    Pretty close, isn’t it?

  168. Matthew

    I tried explaining this and was called “truther” by someone who not only obviously hadn’t even glanced at the official story, but who sees truth as a term of abuse.

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/03/02/russia-on-the-way-to-the-oecd/comment-page-1/#comment-1210254

    And that guy probably votes too.

    Forget facts. He knows that you are wrong and probably a terrorist sympathiser.

    I am still waiting to hear the revisionist version of history in which Saddam Hussein murdered over half a million Iraqis from oh come on now.

  169. tomix

    You may be waiting a while, Matthew.

    It seems ole Oh come on has a wee case of “glass jaw”.

  170. Leo G

    “tomix, you hysterical loon.”- Oh come on

    Careful, you might be fomenting yet another of your deadly wars.

  171. Oh come on

    “Let’s send someone else over there to jam a heap of Cruise Missiles up their arse, because I say so[ substitute Russians for arabs as needed].”

    I said I would like my tax money spent jamming a heap of cruise missiles up the clackers of thuggish dictators. You have substituted thuggish dictators for Arabs. You are a racist, Tomix, who thinks thuggish dictators could only be Arabs.

  172. Oh come on

    I am still waiting to hear the revisionist version of history in which Saddam Hussein murdered over half a million Iraqis from oh come on now.

    You are awfully confused, Matthew. I have made no claims regarding bodycounts or the relative murderousness of either side. You did. All I did was merely ask YOU to expound upon YOUR claims – which increasingly appear to be your revisions of history – something which you are terribly reluctant to do, for some reason.

  173. Yobbo

    Your point? Hussein was a bastard; ISIS are toilet scum; what’s the common denominator: islam!

    My point, which I made at the start of the thread, is that Iraq is a worse place to live now than it was when Saddam was in charge. ISIS are going to prove to be on another level of evil than Saddam.

  174. tomix

    Your point? Hussein was a bastard; ISIS are toilet scum; what’s the common denominator: islam!

    Bullshit
    Calling Saddam Hussein a Muslim is like calling George W. Bush, Tony Bliar, or John Howard, a “Christian”.

    IOW, totally meaningless.

  175. Leo G

    I am still waiting to hear the revisionist version of history in which Saddam Hussein murdered over half a million Iraqis from oh come on now.

    Back in 2003, the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq reported over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
    Human Rights Watch reported that in just one operation (Anfal) Saddam killed 100,000 Iraqi Kurds.

  176. tomix

    Oh come on:
    You are a racist, Tomix, who thinks thuggish dictators could only be Arabs.

    LOL
    Anyway, how much tax money are you contributing, Genghis?

    In 2011, it was estimated that a single Tomahawk cruise missile costs US$1,410,000.[1]

    Are you asking that my tax money contribute to your gay fantasies, Oh come on?

  177. tomix

    Leo G:

    Human Rights Watch reported that in just one operation (Anfal) Saddam killed 100,000 Iraqi Kurds.

    Not sure that Human Rights Watch is very credible.
    But, no matter. Saddam Hussein’s Iraq doesn’t compare with the slaughter that’s now happening in Iraq and Syria- financed by Washington’s allies Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

    Don’t panic, Oh come on, no “thuggish dictators” there.

  178. Peter

    I am among those who question the claim that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are “appalled”, on the grounds that they do so little to prevent that which supposedly appals them.

    The contrast with the reaction of the anglophone world when they determined that slavery was unacceptable, is rather marked.

  179. tomix

    Why should they be “appalled”? Question the motives of the people making the claim.

  180. Tel

    I am still waiting to hear the revisionist version of history in which Saddam Hussein murdered over half a million Iraqis from oh come on now.

    He sprayed poison on Kurds, dunno if that counts. Sprayed out of helicopters that came from… uhhh, nevermind. Anyhow, Saddam Hussein was hung for the crime so he won’t do that again.

  181. Tel

    So far more than one million people have been slaughtered in the illegal invasion of Iraqi by the U.S. Birth defects are up 600% in Iraq – the same will apply to U.S. Veterans.

    Oh, no no no, the U.S. Veterans have government health care… they’ll be just fine.

  182. Matthew

    Back in 2003, the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq reported over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq under Saddam Hussein.
    Human Rights Watch reported that in just one operation (Anfal) Saddam killed 100,000 Iraqi Kurds.

    That is a lot of executions of state enemies. Who is the Documental Centre for Human Rights and what is their methodology? I can’t find anything about them except for stuff on the internet questioning their legitimacy.

  183. Oh come on

    Tomix, you’re in good company with the profoundly confused Matthew.

    And thanks for outing yourself as a homophobe as well as a racist – good to know the calibre of bigot I’m dealing with. You might want to look into the definition of ‘clacker’, by the way.

    As for the cost of a cruise missile – if I had a choice between my taxes funding a Tomahawk or your lifetime mental health expenses (which sport a similar pricetag), I have to say I’d plump for the missile.

  184. Tel

    That is a lot of executions of state enemies.

    They found warehouses full of bones, I would not trust that they were accurately counted, but there were also plenty of shallow graves. Saddam Hussein was very much in the torture and execution business, no one will miss him. His kill rate was higher in earlier years and was slowing down toward the end. Getting old and tired or something, little wonder the US decided to dump him.

    Of course, none of this was justification for the invasion, not until long after that invasion.

    Then once the US invasion got underway people started getting abducted by “men in police uniforms” which makes you wonder how so many thugs got hold of police uniforms. Weird huh? Hard to find good help I suppose.

  185. tomix

    CCTV footage of a car bomb explosion in Baghdad the other day at c. 00:34:

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=edd_1402231403&comments=1
    Who’s responsible for that, Oh come on? Saddam Hussein?

  186. Oh come on

    No, it was obviously planted by the Americans.

  187. tomix

    Why would the Americans do that, Oh come on? Didn’t they invade Iraq[ twice] to establish democracy and good government?

  188. Leo G

    Who is the Documental Centre for Human Rights and what is their methodology? I can’t find anything about them except for stuff on the internet questioning their legitimacy.

    It was the documentation centre in Iraq, established to compile the various official records of state-ordered lawful and unlawful deaths in the lead up to Saddam’s trial.
    Could only find internet pages which questioned its legitimacy? You must have selective blindness- the first three sites listed in the Google search I just tried did not question its legitimacy. Here’s just one.
    But why don’t you “Google” for any of the Human Rights Watch reports documenting the evidence against Saddam. You should find that just in his campaigns against Kurds, Shi`a, and Marsh Arabs, Saddam was responsible for the disappearance and presumed death of between 250,000 and 290,000 civilians.

  189. tomix

    Human Rights Watch funded by George Soros. Wow. So it must be credible.

    Not according to Scott [ Pink Swastika] Lively:
    The Anti-Russian Human Rights Watch Video is a Hoax
    To this day, despite the fact that a major federal law is named after him and ….children have been (and are still being) brainwashed in “gay” propaganda through a play about his life, the majority of Americans still do not know that the Matthew Shepard hate crime story was a hoax….</em>
    http://www.scottlively.net/2014/02/10/the-anti-russian-human-rights-watch-video-is-a-hoax/

  190. Oh come on

    Why would the Americans do that, Oh come on? Didn’t they invade Iraq[ twice] to establish democracy and good government?

    Not bright enough to ascertain when you’re being mocked?

  191. tomix

    From Global Research:

    Syria: ‘Human Rights Watch’, Key Player in the Manufacture of Propaganda for War and Foreign Intervention

    The Washington-based group ‘Human Rights Watch’– controlled by the US foreign policy elite – has released another volley in its campaign to back the ‘humanitarian war’ being waged against the independent nation of Syria.
    Read More: http://www.globalresearch.ca/syria-human-rights-watch-key-player-in-the-manufacture-of-propaganda-for-war-and-foreign-intervention/5366987

  192. tomix

    Leo G- Google Human Rights Watch hoax. Plenty there.

  193. tomix

    Oh come on- You slay me.

  194. Oh come on

    I thought it more your habit for misattributing perspectives, combined with the numerous inaccuracies you’ve peddled on this thread alone. But if you want to put it all down to me, then fine.

  195. Leo G

    Human Rights Watch funded by George Soros. Wow. So it must be credible.

    Human Rights Watch received no significant funding from Soros until 2011.
    I can understand why you might take a position that the NGO is not credible- HRW, as Helsinki Watch, was was once dedicated to monitoring operation of the Helsinki Accords in the Soviet bloc- an accord that was intended to improve relations between the Communist bloc and the West.
    Not your cup of hemlock.

  196. tomix

    Human Rights Watch received no significant funding from Soros until 2011.

    Yes, Leo G. So, that means Soros has been funding it for 3 years, doesn’t it?

  197. Leo G

    “I won’t even mention the carpet bombing of Belgrade for 78 days.” – tomix

    Either you don’t know the meaning of “carpet bombing” or you don’t think to question your anti-West propaganda sources.

  198. tomix

    Doesn’t Soros fund credible people like Julia Gillard and credible organisations like Greenpeace?

  199. tomix

    What type of bombing do you reckon it was, Leo G?

  200. cohenite

    Bullshit
    Calling Saddam Hussein a Muslim is like calling George W. Bush, Tony Bliar, or John Howard, a “Christian”.

    IOW, totally meaningless.

    He was a Sunni; go figure. And what have Christians got to do with islam.

  201. Leo G

    Yes, Leo G. So, that means Soros has been funding it for 3 years, doesn’t it?

    The Human Rights Watch reports to which I referred were published between 2003 and 2005.
    Soros made a single large contribution in 2011. Your argument seems to be a case of prae hoc ergo propter hoc. As per the joke:

    The bartender says “we don’t serve time-travelers here”. A time-traveler walks into a bar.

    I personally dislike the NGO’s perspective on many issues, but I respect it’s diligence and honesty.

  202. Matthew

    This one is difficult, but readable and interesting.

    Michael Scheuer – good man. It must be very difficult for him when he is dealing with people that tell him that Muslim terrorists are fighting the USA because Americans eat pork and American women don’t wear burkas. There is something about the Muslim/Islam issue that gives many people a blind spot and makes them completely irrational. I have literally seen people’s eyes glaze over when discussing the issue, like one of Pavlov’s dogs, they have been programmed.

  203. Leo G

    There is something about the Muslim/Islam issue that gives many people a blind spot and makes them completely irrational

    As irrational as a person who claims that the people he observes who discuss the “Muslim/Islam” issue are so programmed like one of Pavlov’s dogs that their eyes literally glaze over as he watches?

  204. Zatara

    Total U.S. Military Gulf War Deaths: 73,846
    – Deaths amongst Deployed: 17,847
    – Deaths amongst Non-Deployed: 55,999

    You have GOT to be joking. You are seriously trying to use those ridiculous figures?

    17,960 is the amount of IRAQI casualties. The coalition lost 4805.

    And please do tell us, how exactly do “non-deployed” forces, much less 55, 999 of them, get killed in a war?

    So far more than one million people have been slaughtered in the illegal invasion of Iraqi by the U.S. Birth defects are up 600% in Iraq – the same will apply to U.S. Veterans

    Exaggerated claims, substandard research, and a disservice to truth

    or

    How the Lancet exaggerated the Iraq body count by %600 and why the left loves to dig up only disporved memes.

  205. cohenite

    There is something about the Muslim/Islam issue that gives many people a blind spot and makes them completely irrational. I have literally seen people’s eyes glaze over when discussing the issue, like one of Pavlov’s dogs, they have been programmed.

    What do mean irrational?

  206. Matthew

    As irrational as a person who claims that the people he observes who discuss the “Muslim/Islam” issue are so programmed like one of Pavlov’s dogs that their eyes literally glaze over as he watches?

    Yes. That literally happens. Quibble if you must.

    glaze over – become glassy or take on a glass-like appearance;

    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/glaze+over

  207. cohenite

    What do you think of islam matthew?

  208. Tel

    Michael Scheuer – good man.

    There are a few good men left.

    http://www.drugwar.com/castillonegroponte.shtm

    In Honduras, I saw first hand how Negroponte and General Alvarez committed some of the worst human rights violations ever committed against humanity in the Western Hemisphere. In 1994, the Honduran Human Rights Commission charged Negroponte personally with several human rights abuses.

    President G.W. Bush appointed Negroponte as ambassador to Iraq with the “Salvador Option” in hand. The Salvador Option is a blueprint of the Phoenix Program [a murderous assasination program that killed at least 40,000 people without trial] that was utilized in Vietnam. And know it is being implemented in Iraq.

    Today, President Bush has named Negroponte, as headhunter, Director of National Intelligence. He is now in charge of all intelligence, including that of the Pentagon.

    God help us in saving our world.

    Indeed, if Only I believed that God would help. Celerino Castillo III is behind bars now, good luck to him.

  209. Matthew

    What do you think of islam matthew?

    Good fences make good neighbours. We can co-exist separately.

  210. Peter

    Only if the neighbour respects your fences…

  211. Matthew

    Only if the neighbour respects your fences…

    Any migrants, illegal or legal, is purely a matter of choice for our government. Until now the government, any of them, have been terrible on the issue of immigration and the policies have not for the benefit of Australians in general.

  212. Peter

    Not just migration.

    We are referring to a group that has never abjured invasion by force.

    It is only our good fortune that our culture has tended to produce greater wealth, technical excellence and competence in the waging of war over the last few centuries.

  213. blogstrop

    Ptomix hearts Saddam. Another thread derailed.

Comments are closed.