Malcolm Fraser and war crimes

I started reading Mike Carlton’s latest screed and got as far as Malcolm Fraser’s tweet:

If any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be named a war crime.

Fraser is very selective in his condemnation of war crimes. In the last week we’re seen an atrocious war crime being committed in the Ukraine – a civilian aircraft was shot out of the sky. To be sure, this is probably an accident, a case of mistaken identity, so it’s war crime and not (also) an act of terrorism. I don’t know if Fraser has condemned the events surrounding MH17 but what of other similar incidents?

In 1978-79 Fraser was prime minister of Australia and engaged in resolving the Zimbabwean conflict.

Soon after Flight 825 took off, a group of ZIPRA guerrillas scored a direct hit on its starboard wing with a Soviet-made Strela 2 surface-to-air infrared homing missile, critically damaging the aircraft and forcing an emergency landing. An attempted belly landing in a cotton field just west of Karoi was foiled by an unseen ditch, which caused the plane to cartwheel and break up. Of the 52 passengers and four crew, 38 died in this crash; the insurgents then approached the wreckage, rounded up the 10 survivors they could see and massacred them with automatic gunfire. Three passengers survived by hiding in the surrounding bush, while a further five lived because they had gone to look for water before the guerrillas arrived.

A civilian aircraft was deliberately shot down and the survivors massacred.

Air Rhodesia Flight 827 … was shot down on 12 February 1979 by Zimbabwe People’s Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) guerrillas using a Strela 2 missile soon after take-off. The circumstances were very similar to that of Air Rhodesia Flight 825 five months earlier.

Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.

IT is hard to know exactly how much responsibility Malcolm Fraser bears for the installation of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, but it is generally agreed that he played an important role.

Fraser’s 1987 biographer Philip Ayres wrote: “The centrality of Fraser’s part in the process leading to Zimbabwe’s independence is indisputable. All the major African figures involved affirm it.”

The long and short of it is that Fraser is no position to be lecturing anyone on war crimes.

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119 Responses to Malcolm Fraser and war crimes

  1. Robbo

    Now that he has headed off to the left it is time we all reflect on the career of Malcolm. Littered with missed opportunities and bad mistakes, Mugabe being just one, Fraser would do everyone a favour by staying out of the light and shutting up. Nowadays Fraser is just another grumpy old man suffering from lack of attention. I give him the 2014 award for boring old fart.

  2. Helen

    One good thing to come out of the internet is that selective memories are so easily shown to be outright lies.

  3. entropy

    Quite so, Helen
    Before the internet we would have had to take the SMH and what the other denizens that controlled the narrative defined as the truth as gospel.
    There are risks with the information dwelling in the intertube, but overall a force for the better.

  4. Infidel Tiger

    Two sad old men, who to our country’s eternal embarrassment were briefly popular in the 70′s.

  5. struth

    Here again is proof of msm bias.
    That we hear anything that this old turnip says.

  6. Myrddin Seren

    Do the Cat Collective actually reckon old Mal tweets out all this stuff himself ?

    Or has he delegated concern trolling to his biographer Margaret Simons ?

  7. H B Bear

    Trousers was irrelevant before his time.

  8. H B Bear

    Or has he delegated concern trolling to his biographer Margaret Simons ?

    I thought Sarah Hyphen-Seapatrol was doing it on a sub-contract piecework basis? I could be wrong.

  9. Bill Thompson

    I remember seeing Fraser on Q&A once, pontificating about he always KNEW there were no WMD in Iraq. It turned out that he was right on that one (although even Hans Blix was uncertain in February 2003) but if he was so bloody prescient about everything, why didn’t he foresee that Bob Hawke would replace Bill Hayden as Labor leader, after he named the 1983 election date? Why didn’t he foresee that Hawke would whip his butt? Why didn’t he foresee that he’d blubber like a pansey during his concession speech? Why didn’t he foresee he’d be caught without his duds in Memphis? AND why didn’t he foresee that Mugabe would be a tyrant?

  10. Rob

    Fraser is in no position to lecture anyone – on anything.
    He shouldn’t be heard.

  11. Des Deskperson

    ‘Or has he delegated concern trolling to his biographer Margaret Simons ?’

    The idea that Frazer is being fed his lines is intriguing and plausible.

    When he was Prime Minister, it wasn’t just the left who portrayed him as the drongo spawn of an inbred squattocracy. I once worked with a gentleman who had been an Assistant Secretary in PM&C under Frazer and who claimed that he’d had to develop a special, simplified briefing system for Frazer. My colleague used to boast that this system had “made a statesman out of Frazer”.

  12. miner

    Nice comment Bill T, but Saddam actually gassed Kurds before the invasion, and gas is generally known as a WMD.

    I think it’s about time someone did a very lengthy article about a) the failures of Malcolm when in government, and b) the bollocks he’s been talking since he got the boot.

  13. Oh come on

    Whitlam’s premiership was awful, and by late 1975 was in utter chaos. I could forgive Fraser for taking a huge crap on our constitutional arrangements IF his government wasn’t so deeply mediocre. But since it was, in hindsight it’s a simple matter to identify Fraser as the great villain of Armistice Day, 1975.

  14. Mike of Marion

    Trouser Fraser – such a lousy memory that Gerard Henderson of MWD has to constantly correct Fraser’s bad recalls (via Margaret Simons)

  15. Oh come on

    In several different sources I’ve read that Fraser was one of our brightest Prime Ministers. Pity we have so little to show for his intelligence. He was just another old fuddy-duddy whose views don’t seem to have changed much since leaving office, in spite of the grand failure of his brand of big government conservatism. No wonder he’s come the full circle and joined the left – they’re the only ones who are interventionist enough for him.

  16. south

    I do love watching the Left, especially its older generation, forced to rally behind the man they considered the Great Satan of Australian politics for so long.

  17. .Dr.Sir Fred Lenin

    Is it possible that Fraser could be charged with being an accomplice to Mugabes Crimes against Humanity?

  18. Oh come on

    Fraser serves the same purpose for the left as that certain Cat troll (who will probably pop up on this thread) – he’s their token ‘conservative politician’ who can be wheeled out when they need need to pretend they represent a plurality of perspectives. Of course they loathe him, will never trust him or forgive him for knocking off Whitlam. But he’s too rare and precious a commodity for the left to ostracise.

  19. Anthony

    Is this the same John Malcolm Fraser of the third class honours degree in history from Oxford? Someone once told me that they don’t fail students at Oxford, they award them a third.

  20. Woolfe

    I was on holiday in SA when the first one was brought down. got on the first plane home, straight back into the army for 6 weeks.

  21. hammy

    That is a great article by Mike Carlton – his justifiable anger shines through like a light.

    As he says Israel has become a fascist state. Their response to harmless rocket fire from Hamas, which they defend themselves from extremely easily, is totally disproportionate. How can they support killing over 1000 civilians when there have been so few casualties on their side?

    And yet any criticism of these criminal Jews is deemed anti-semitic. Well, they are driving the world to irredeemable anti-semitism.

  22. Blair

    “As he says Israel has become a fascist state”
    Israel is not a democracy?
    “How can they support killing over 1000 civilians when there have been so few casualties on their side?”
    More Israeli casualties and Israel would cease to be a fascist state?

  23. Greg James

    Although there can hardly be any doubt that Gillard was Australia’s worst Prime Minister, by a fairly long shot by reason of her lying and dissembling and gross incompetence, and Rudd follows after that, there can equally be little doubt that Fraser would have to come in a very close third behind Rudd in the worst Prime Ministerial stakes.

    He was a complete and utter fool who was promoted far beyond his level of competence, who wasted a fairly golden opportunity to actually do something for the betterment of the country. That the LNP allowed this man to continue in office when it was clear that he was squandering the opportunity that had been given to him and that he was not up to the job, is a matter of puzzlement to me.

    Since then, this slimy Green cretin has be-clowned himself repeatedly, in almost every public utterance he has made, and all the while still sucking off the public teat 40 years or so after his so richly deserved political demise.

  24. Percy

    And yet any criticism of these criminal Jews is deemed anti-semitic

    Perhaps if you said ‘criminal Israelis’ it would sound less anti-semitic.
    You do know that the people of Israel aren’t all Jewish?

  25. Clam Chowdah

    And then there’s the small matter of the Lebanese concession and it’s role in creating a large band of Australian brothers in Syria and Iraq who enjoy decapitation.

  26. JC

    Not a good composta attempt , kero. It needs to be more subtle.

  27. Habib

    When are these irrelevant old farts like Fraser going to do our ears, intelligence and wallets a favour and pop their clogs? A lifetime of snorking in the public trough seems to guarantee it’s a lengthy one. At least Billy Sneddin had the grace to kark it early, and on the job as well.

  28. hammy

    You do know that the people of Israel aren’t all Jewish?

    Yes Percy, I do know that. Palestinians make up 20% of the population of Israel. Are you implying that they are part of this criminal slaughter?

  29. MDMConnell

    On MH17, Fraser was wheeled out by Jon Faine on his show to discuss the issue.

    He basically blamed everything on the West…..because we ‘pressure’ Russia so hard, they are ‘forced’ to be violent and undemocratic. If only we left poor little defenceless Russia alone and treated Putin like a kind and friendly democractic figure, everything would be hunky-dory in Europe and MH 17 wouldn’t have been shot down.

    Oh, and Abbott was irresponsible and warmongering by demanding the Russians co-operate on securing the site and respecting the bodies. We should butt out of Russian business because they are scrupulously honest and open. Any delays or problems will be 100% Abbott’s fault for hurting the Russians’ feelings.

  30. Oh come on

    Hammy’s a fan of airhead Carlton. Big surprise there. JC, have you had any new ideas about theatrical ways you can fire Carlton when Gina takes over Fairfax and the necessary HR bloodbath is turned into a pay-per-view cash bonanza? Carlton’s sacking would surely warrant a multi-episode extravaganza.

  31. squawkbox

    No Spammy, arabs make up 20% of the population of Israel. ‘Palestinians’ are a post-1967 invention.

  32. Des Deskperson

    ‘But he’s too rare and precious a commodity for the left to ostracise.’

    Whatever their motives, some ‘progressives’ certainly fawn all over Fraser.

    The last time I saw Fraser live was when he spoke at a gallery exhibition opening in Canberra about three years ago, where he more or less claimed that he’d single handedly demolished Apartheid.

    I was struck, however, by the extraordinary behaviour of one of his fans, a little man in an oddly self-consciously ‘rural Australia’ costume – moleskins, tweed jacket, the sort of thing you would wear to a fancy dress ball as a ‘squatter’ – who seemed to be in a sort of lather of adoration for Fraser, wriggling and twitching like a pre-teen at a New Directions concert, clapping and shouting ‘hear hear’ after pretty much every word the old boy-conscripter spoke, annoying and embarrassing even some of the other ‘progressives’ in attendance.

    I have reason to believe that this person was Bruce Haigh, a middle ranking member of the Fairfax-ABC corps of ‘progressive’ opinionistas.

  33. Peter

    As he says Israel has become a fascist state. Their response to harmless rocket fire from Hamas, which they defend themselves from extremely easily, is totally disproportionate. How can they support killing over 1000 civilians when there have been so few casualties on their side?

    This utterly irrational argument had been shown to be false so many times that resurrecting it should be considered an act of wanton trolling.

    It requires arguing that an aggressor must be permitted to kill some of your people, before you are morally entitled to use lethal force to stop him.
    It requires that being more competent a lethal force than the aggressor , not to mention actually winning, are in themselves immoral.

    Carlton’s anger is not justified. It is the pathetic whining of a hater who cannot stand to admit that the object of his hatred is the better party.

  34. Tel

    Although there can hardly be any doubt that Gillard was Australia’s worst Prime Minister, by a fairly long shot by reason of her lying and dissembling and gross incompetence, and Rudd follows after that, there can equally be little doubt that Fraser would have to come in a very close third behind Rudd in the worst Prime Ministerial stakes.

    Naaa, Fraser was incompetent, and he failed to keep government spending under control, but Red Whitlam was the one who created the paradigm shift from a productive society to an entitlement society. Fraser faffed around ineffectively in the aftermath of Whitlam.

  35. JC

    Oco

    Yea, there would be a great way to deal with Mitch. Take him into a room to fire him, tease him and when he becomes abusive beat the living shit outta him. Then call the cops and accuse him of being violent after he found out he was booted.

    It would be fun.

  36. Brett_McS

    Fraser is the poster boy for pompous ass-wipery, but Mugabe may not be the best example of it. Going by “Into the Cannibal’s Pot” by Iliana Mercer, a South African now in the US, Mugabe actually held back the population from what would have been an immediate and complete massacre of all white farmers. The alternatives then (and now) are not good.

  37. Peter

    No Spammy, arabs make up 20% of the population of Israel. ‘Palestinians’ are a post-1967 invention.

    Quite true…

    As Israel is a secular democracy, we can also presume that the majority of them participate in the election of their government. Also that a significant number of them support the continuation of the State of Israel, because they would stand to lose significant freedoms and wealth were they to come under the rule of Hamas.

  38. Percy

    Are you implying that they are part of this criminal slaughterIsraels retaliatory strikes?

    No Arabs in the Isreali government or military Hammy?

  39. john constantine

    endless stories about fraser going broke as a farmer.

    one goodie, fraser had an on property cattle sale,and to make his cattle look bigger,he took the top rail off the cattle yards [or had the working class do it.]

    once the top rail was off,the cattle could and did leap the fence and do a ‘running of the bulls’ with frasers would be clients.

    interesting to note that the abc never trots fraser out to comment on the animal rights issues that have the swampies frothing.

    surely, as an ex-grazier,beloved of the left, fraser would have a farm animal opinion equally as valid as any vegan swampy abc famine victim.

  40. George Brandis thanks for NOTHING

    And then there’s the small matter of the Lebanese concession and it’s role in creating a large band of Australian brothers in Syria and Iraq who enjoy decapitation.

    +1,000

    A completely fracking stupid and unwarranted and unnecessary mistake, the adverse consequences of which are mounting each day.

    My impression is that Mal is entirely conscious that he is a waste of space, and is working furiously in the time he has left to divert people’s attention from his record.

    It’s not working. Apart from missing many golden opportunities to better his country and end the slide into socialism, he’ll be remembered for dithering, entrenching socialism and the politics of special interests, for Mugabe, for the Lebanese concession, and for ‘losing’ his trousers.

    All the rest – including the sanctimonious tweets – will be forgotten. History will not be kind.

  41. hammy

    Unfortunately I do accept that there’s a sharp growth of anti-semitism in the West today. What I’m saying is that the Jews are stimulating that racism by dint of their outrageous behaviour, both in Israel and also in the diaspora because of their unconscionable support of that rogue state.

  42. Robbo

    “harmless rocket fire from Hamas, ”

    If a Hamas rocket landed on your house Hammy you wouldn’t be calling it harmless. I know you are a wanker Hammy and I can normally put up with that, but your absolute stupidity makes me want to punch your moronic face in.

  43. gabrianga

    Fraser. The man who implemented Whitlam and Coombes policies creating the divide between black and white land owners.

    A total arze.

  44. Gab

    WOnder what Fraser calls the extermination of Christians in Nigeria and parts of the Middle East? What? he doesn’t think those to be war crimes? Not committed by Jews. OIC.

  45. Zatara

    harmless rocket fire

    Un-f*cking believable. How about they shoot a few in your direction and you tell us which are harmless.

  46. Oh come on

    Then call the cops and accuse him of being violent after he found out he was booted.

    I still like the idea of dropping from a crane a concrete slab right onto on his car just as he’s approaching it, burdened with boxes full of remnants from his desk.

    There’d be Benny Hill music playing in the background. Maybe a clown can materialise out of nowhere and slam a custard pie into his aghast face as he takes in the visage of his compacted car.

    Or you could drive a steamroller over his car instead of the concrete slab.

    No, I’ve got it – squash it with a tank!!

  47. Gab

    harmless rocket fire

    Un-f*cking believable.

    Look, hammy is just deliberately baiting people here by using dead Gazans as his prop and treating this entire Israel/Hamas war as a joke. You see, to him it is all a hoot, a laugh, a bit of fun and all in order to get attention here.

  48. cohenite

    Fraser embodies everything wrong with conservatism.

  49. boy on a bike

    Yes Percy, I do know that. Palestinians make up 20% of the population of Israel. Are you implying that they are part of this criminal slaughter?

    Golani commander Colonel Ghassan Alian left his hospital bed and went straight back to Gaza to rejoin his troops.

    “Even if I have to walk there, I will go back to Gaza. The division is currently continuing in its main mission: to uncover the tunnels and destroy as many terrorists as possible.

    “We killed many terrorists, and that’s what needs to be done. There were skirmishes in which we killed 10 and 15 terrorists. I hope I will return to the operation in the Gaza Strip soon. I want to send a warm embrace to the bereaved families. I could not see them all but plan on doing so. They give us strength.”

    Colonel Ghassan Alian is the first officer with the Druze community is to serve as the Golani Brigade’s chief.

  50. HRT

    Fraser was elected with the biggest majority the parliament had seen, and was put in government to reverse the course Whitlam’s government had set Australia on. He did not do this.

    Instead he simply changed the brand of the grease used to quieten the squeaking wheels.

    He was voted out after after two terms and could not understand why he was regarded as a failure. While Gillard and Rudd were formidable competitors, I still believe Fraser was the worst PM we have had.

  51. Fisky

    Unfortunately I do accept that there’s a sharp growth of anti-semitism in the West today. What I’m saying is that the Jews are stimulating that racism by dint of their outrageous behaviour, both in Israel and also in the diaspora because of their unconscionable support of that rogue state.

    If you believe that the growth in anti-semitism is justified by the actions of “criminal Jews” (your words), why did you say “Unfortunately…” ???

    Surely you really mean, “Fortunately, there’s been a sharp growth of anti-semitism”.

  52. JC

    ….because of their unconscionable support of that rogue state.

    Define what you mean by a rogue state, Kero. No fucking around. Define it.

    Do you actually mean Israel has no right to exist? Yes or no?

  53. jupes

    If any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be named a war crime.

    The UN and its associated ‘human rights’ lawyers have tightened the rules so much that waging war is now a war crime.

  54. Peter

    What the hand-wringers conveniently ignore, is that most terrorists are civilians by definition. Doesn’t mean that they are “innocent”, or that they are not legit targets.

  55. cohenite

    The UN and its associated ‘human rights’ lawyers have tightened the rules so much that waging war is now a war crime.

    Not when its done by ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas etc

  56. JC

    What the hand-wringers conveniently ignore, is that most terrorists are civilians by definition. Doesn’t mean that they are “innocent”, or that they are not legit targets.

    That’s whay the body count in Gaza is difficult to measure. Hamas rats don’t wear uniforms, so if Israel blows up a bunch of these scumbags they would invariably get counted as part of the civ population. Hamas rats also put kids in front of them too.

  57. WhaleHunt Fun

    IT is hard to know exactly how much responsibility Malcolm Fraser bears for the installation of Robert Mugabe

    I see no difference between Fraser and Mugabe. They have the same beliefs and the same public positions. They even have the same CVs, leader of a Commonwealth nation whose economy they ruined through incompetence and stupidity. There are so very many Rhodesians who can’t wait to piss on his grave that whoever opens a teashop nearby will do exceedingly well, unlike any plants nearby.

  58. WhaleHunt Fun

    Perhaps we could donate some ex-PMs as subhuman shields? Our bit for helping Hamarse in a way that also benefits the taxpayer.

  59. Oh come on

    Naaa, Fraser was incompetent, and he failed to keep government spending under control, but Red Whitlam was the one who created the paradigm shift from a productive society to an entitlement society. Fraser faffed around ineffectively in the aftermath of Whitlam.

    This is about right. Fraser was not one of our worst PMs. He was arguably our most mediocre, however. He criminally squandered the opportunity to make much needed economic reforms that we credit Hawke and Keating with today.

    I would not gripe so much about Fraser’s mediocrity if he had have become Prime Minister in the conventional manner. But he engineered Whitlam’s dismissal and went on to turn in a premiership that demonstrated it clearly wasn’t worth undermining our constitutional arrangements so that we could have a Fraser PM in late 1975 rather than in some time in 1976 (probably sooner rather than later considering the shambolic state of the Whitlam government by Nov 1975).

    The dismissal made it easy for the left to install the widely accepted narrative that the Whitlam government was underhandedly stymied and sabotaged all the way through its terms in office by its opponents, which is why it was so disastrously bad. The much-overlooked Truth Of The Matter is that Whitlam was simply a rubbish PM in charge of an ill-disciplined rabble.

    Fraser martyred, beatified and canonised Whitlam in one fell swoop on November 11th, 1975. We live with the consequences of that today; long after the merits for removing Whitlam faded into irrelevance.

  60. WhaleHunt Fun

    unconscionable

    Wrong.
    I sleep easy knowing future Hamarse scum are being wiped out. Totally consciencable.
    They voted for Hamarse. They are as guilty as the individuals who fire the rockets.
    Maybe we can ship anyone on the boat in the Indian Ocean off to help Hamarse.
    Save the taxpayers some more money.
    Open an offshore detention centre in Gaza. Would be hilarious.

  61. JC

    OCO

    Mitch really does have a very punchable face. Take a looksee.

  62. calli

    He’s ‘orrible. This one (Billy Idol’s Gramps) is a better fist magnet IMHO.

  63. Oh come on

    Take a looksee.

    Ergh, hark at his crappy leather jacket. Act your age, pops.

    And it seems he has hair plugs. Yeah yeah.

  64. cohenite

    Carlton socialises with Fitzsimmons and hides behind his skirts when his poisonous mouth gets fists travelling towards his punchable face.

  65. JC

    Carlton socialises with Fitzsimmons and hides behind his skirts when his poisonous mouth gets fists travelling towards his punchable face.

    I don’t know why someone hasn’t deck him.

  66. hammy

    I don’t know why someone hasn’t deck him.

    Typical response from a totalitarian thug. Violence is always the answer against those who disagree.

  67. mareeS

    Malcolm Fraser was Army Minister in 1966 and oversaw the re-introduction of conscription for young Australian men (my husband was in the 4th intake, April 1966, Numbers was a bit later) and oversaw the early prosecution of Australian army involvement in the war during his time as Minister for the Army.

    How he can now whitewash his political past, be an apologist for that ugly racist Robert Mugabe, and drop all sorts of crap on Israel, USA and the rest of the West while never admitting for a moment that he sent 550+ young Australians to their deaths in Vietnam…Words fail me about this monumental turd.

    Alzheimers must be a wonderful thing.

  68. Patrick G

    Not that I’m an apologist for Mr. Fraser (far from it), but I do not understand the point you’re trying to make with this post.

    ZIPRA was the military wing of ZAPU, not ZANU-PF.

    Perhaps you could clarify this for me?

  69. Sinclair Davidson

    ZIPRA was the military wing of ZAPU

    Yes – that is correct.

  70. cohenite

    I don’t know why someone hasn’t deck him.

    No one has decked carlton because carlton hides behind fitzsimmons who is about 2 meters tall and 150 kilos of bully-boy left wing shit.

  71. Patrick G

    Yes, I know it is correct.

    What I do not understand is why you appear to have linked Robert Mugabe and the downing of Flight 827 by ZIPRA.

    That is the point I wish to have clarified.

  72. Boambee John

    “response to harmless rocket fire from Hamas, which they defend themselves from extremely easily, is totally disproportionate.”

    Hamster:

    Just because HAMAS rocket troops are incompetent, doesn’t mean that Israel has to accept the ongoing risk of random death for its civilian population.

    The aim of war is to visit disproportionate retaliation on your enemy, to persuade said enemy that the war is a bad idea.

  73. Boambee John

    “You do know that the people of Israel aren’t all Jewish?”

    Hamster:

    I understand that the commander of one of the Israeli brigades operating in Gaza (recently wounded in action, but now returned to duty) is a Druse Arab (feel free to Google it yourself). Where does he fit into your anti-Jewish rant?

  74. Sinclair Davidson

    I have linked ZIPRA to Mugabe? Really? Perhaps you could provide the quote where I say that? Take as long as you like.

  75. hammy

    The aim of war is to visit disproportionate retaliation on your enemy, to persuade said enemy that the war is a bad idea.

    No – disproportionate retaliation ia a war crime.

    anti-Jewish rant

    Nothing anti-Jewish about my statements (not rants by the way). All I’m saying is that the behaviour of the Jewish populations inside and outside of Israel encourages and breeds anti-semitism. In fact I’m pro-Jewish.

  76. Bruce of Newcastle

    disproportionate retaliation i[s] a war crime

    What, like firing rockets at a nuclear reactor? Or only like firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets?

    Or like planning to kill or kidnap three entire towns?

    Rant away, big boy. Any time you like. We are quite happy to take note of your siding with Class A war criminals.

  77. Gab

    In fact I’m pro-Jewish.

    Yeah, like Hamas is “pro-Jewish”.

  78. Patrick G

    I have linked ZIPRA to Mugabe? Really? Perhaps you could provide the quote where I say that? Take as long as you like.

    What is the point of mentioning Flight 827 in the same post as mentioning that Fraser was instrumental in bringing about the transition to the new Zimbabwean government with Mugabe at is head?

    It is irrelevant.

  79. Sinclair Davidson

    How is it irrelevant?

  80. JC

    Typical response from a totalitarian thug. Violence is always the answer against those who disagree.

    Not always, Kero. Occasionally it’s warranted. I think you’d have a very punchable face for instance and you too deserve a decent throttling, even if you are doing a poor man’s composta imitation, which I think you are.

  81. Oh come on

    No – disproportionate retaliation ia a war crime.

    It isn’t disproportionate. The Israelis are very good at protecting their people from harmful weapons. Hamas is very good at exposing their people to harmful weapons – it’s Hamas’s most powerful weapon, actually. And hammy’s stupid enough to lap it up uncritically.

  82. Paul

    Israel is not a democracy?

    It you are a Jew (by whatever definition that comes be it Khazar or actual Jew) then for you it is a democracy.

  83. Bill Thompson

    Malcolm Fraser absolutely gives me the sh*ts. Back in 2010, on Q&A, I had a chance to try to get him to put a sock in it…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldBI8cvyZro

  84. Gab

    lol well done, Bill. Notice how Springer-Jones interrupts to save Fraser.

  85. Fisky

    Paul – do you have strong views on fractional reserve banking?

  86. Zatara

    No – disproportionate retaliation ia a war crime.

    No actually, it isn’t.

    However, indiscriminately firing rockets at a civilian population IS.

    Did I miss the bit where you condemned that?

  87. Peter

    The aim of war is to visit disproportionate retaliation on your enemy, to persuade said enemy that the war is a bad idea.

    A more accurate definition would be that the aim of war is to prevent your opponent from achieving his objectives… Retaliation is just one tactic by which this may be achieved, in that it raises the cost of aggression.

    In this case, the objective of Hamas is to obliterate Israel and kill as many Jews as possible. Therefore, the countermeasures currently employed by Israel are justified.

    Unfortunately, we still have people like Hammy who pretend that it is some kind of tit-for-tat schoolyard game. He appears completely ignorant of the historical fact that purely defensive war is only ever a delaying tactic……. If there are no disproportionate consequences for the aggressor, he can continue to attack on his own terms until he finds a method that is successful.

  88. Peter

    Merely because Iron Dome is (relatively) successful now, does not mean that we can depend on Hamas playing by the current rules like sportsmen.

  89. Des Deskperson

    ‘ even if you are doing a poor man’s composta imitation, which I think you are.’

    I’ve said it before, if he’s a poor man’s Composta, what’s he doing here? Shouldn’t he be trolling on left wing sites, getting the dolts to agree with him and then laughing at them? That’s what Arlene did par excellence. Surely he’s wasting his time here, where we all know already that leftists are drongos.

    I believe he’s dinkum.

  90. Combine Dave

    So what’s the solution?

    The ME seems to be a hot bed of religious/ethnic fuelled violence, not sure what dog Australia has in that fight/those fights?

    Having said that has Abbott cut off the ‘foreign aid’ for Hamas yet?

  91. Gab

    Having said that has Abbott cut off the ‘foreign aid’ for Hamas yet?

    No. He has increased it even more today. Labor backbencher Melissa Parke, who is blatantly pro-palestinian, has accused the government of adopting a “blatantly pro-Israel position”.

    So the government today has donated a further $5 million to Hamas.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/aust-gives-5m-to-help-people-in-gaza/story-fn3dxiwe-1227003847408

  92. don

    even if you are doing a poor man’s composta imitation, which I think you are.

    Composta was running a full scale blog, whereas poor old Hammy is just a commenter. You can’t compare the two.

    If you really believe he’s a right-winger satirising a rabid lefty, why are you so livid about him? You must live your life in a perpetual state of anger.

  93. Helen

    Peter Goodwin is quite the best writer IMHO on Rhodesia and Zimbabwe.

    I bought Makiwa while I was there, followed by When a Crocodile eats the Sun and later, The Fear. His parents lived and worked there, he grew up there and than had to leave, he is a Journalist who still loves his country.

    My friend said to me ‘I am an African.’ She now lives in Australia and the most horrific things have happened to people I met when I visited there. It haunts me still, the quiet farmer who came in before his wife was about to give me an oil massage. Some years later after I left, she was in the back of the ambulance trying to unwrap the barbed wire from around his neck. He died. My friend’s brothers are still there, though most of the family is now In Australia. Another family I met their cook had her legs broken becasue she warned the family the Terrs were coming. That family were eventually got after I left and more unrest broke out. He was fighting alone with a broken leg from room to room, disabling rifles as he used the ammunition. I shared his bread at his table and he is dead.

    I asked my friend why don’t you fight back – the Matabele are your friends, not Magabe’s Shona, rise up with the Matabele and beat them but she said we no longer have the weapons, we have only hunting rifles.

    So maybe it would have been better if Magabe had not ‘held them back’ They could have fought on then while their training and skills were fresh and in the end result has been the same – total decimation of the farming community. It just happened slower.

  94. Patrick G

    How is it irrelevant?

    It is irrelevant because it does not support your proposition that Fraser selectively condemns war crimes.

    You have not shown, for instance, that at that time Mugabe was regarded by anyone as war criminal.

    You have not shown that, even if Mugabe was a war criminal, that Fraser did (or did not) condemn those war crimes (e.g., by reference to contemporary news accounts).

    If you wish to put forward the proposition that Fraser selectively condemns war crimes according to some whim, then it is wise to also put forward supporting statements which confirm it’s truth.

    Consider your other supporting statements in this post.

    1. “I don’t know if Fraser has condemned the events surrounding MH17, but what of other similar incidents?

    By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have condemned the events of MH17. Therefore, this example cannot possibly be used in support of your proposition. So why mention it?

    2. In relation to Air Rhodesia Flight 825 you said:

    “Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.”

    By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have been “appalled” by this event. You have provided no evidence whatsoever (e.g. in the form of contemporary accounts) that he did or did not condemn these events. Therefore, this statement cannot possibly be taken to support your proposition.

    3. In relation to Air Rhodesia Flight 827, you said (again):

    “”Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.”

    See 2, above.

    The long and the short of it is that this post is heavy on innuendo and very short on actual truth.

    Sloppy work. You can do better.

  95. Sinclair Davidson

    It is irrelevant because it does not support your proposition that Fraser selectively condemns war crimes.

    Patrick G – easy then. Simply provide a link to where your mate Fraser condemned the ZIPRA attacks. Shouldn’t be too hard – he was PM at the time.

    Looks to me that you’re an apologist for war criminals, terrorists and Fraser too.

  96. Sinclair Davidson

    You have not shown, for instance, that at that time Mugabe was regarded by anyone as war criminal.

    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Oh dear.

  97. JC

    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Oh dear.

    He won the peace prize for helping down the jet.

  98. Patrick G

    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Oh dear.

    He won the peace prize for helping down the jet.

    It is obvious that the purpose of my post has gone completely over both your heads.

    Please point out where I explicitly stated that Mugabe WAS NOT a war criminal.

  99. Des Deskperson

    ‘By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have condemned the events of MH17′

    I’ve done a quick search and I can find no evidence that Fraser has condemned the MH 17 attacks. Perhaps Patrick can do better.

    A key point about Fraser the born again compassionista is that his new thoughts, widely circulated and praised though they may be, don’t ever seem to have developed beyond the standard received wisdoms and mental cliches of the sub-cerebral ‘progressive’. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to assume, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that he takes the standard anti- west ‘progressive’ line on the tragedy, namely that Putin is being victimised.

  100. Sinclair Davidson

    that, even if Mugabe was a war criminal

    Right here – the words, “even if” as if he wasn’t.

  101. Myrrdin Seren

    I refuse to believe the doddering old windbag from Bill Thompson’s Q&A video of 2010 is actually tweeting anything under his own steam.

    Fraser is just a brand name for some lefty collective issuing agitprop in his name.

  102. Patrick G

    I’ve done a quick search and I can find no evidence that Fraser has condemned the MH 17 attacks. Perhaps Patrick can do better.

    Thank you, Des.

    However…

    You and I are not obliged to provide evidence that Fraser has condemned or not condemned war crimes according to whatever takes his fancy.

    Mr. Davidson is. It’s his post. He should prove his proposition to the readers.

    I repeat, this is not about me liking Fraser or being his apologist. I am simply making a comment about the content of this website and how it’s presented. Mr. Davidson needs to do better.

  103. Patrick G

    Right here – the words, “even if” as if he wasn’t.

    Unbelievable.

  104. Sinclair Davidson

    I repeat, this is not about me liking Fraser or being his apologist.

    I don’t believe you.

    Des Deskperson – I did more than a quick search. I could find nothing on Fraser condemning war crimes in the Rhodesia-Zimbabwe conflict. In addition there is no criticism of Mugabe in the period after 1980. On the contrary I could find criticism of Fraser keeping his silence.

    But, of course, there is no satisfying apologists like Patrick G.

  105. Patrick G

    Now you’re getting it!

    All of a sudden, what was a sloppy post is starting to take on some respectability!

    Well done. See, it wasn’t that hard.

  106. calli

    You have not shown, for instance, that at that time Mugabe was regarded by anyone as war criminal.

    Anyone of importance, you mean? Having heard many tales from white Zim farmers, forced to flee their properties at gunpoint, I would have to say that they considered him one.

  107. Patrick G

    Anyone of importance, you mean? Having heard many tales from white Zim farmers, forced to flee their properties at gunpoint, I would have to say that they considered him one.

    Oh dear, you too!

    You have completely missed the point of my commentary.

  108. Sinclair Davidson

    Yes Patrick – you’re only person who knows what you’re talking about.

  109. Patrick G

    Yes Patrick – you’re only person who knows what you’re talking about.

    I make this simple then, so that even you can understand it.

    I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSERTION ABOUT MALCOLM FRASER.

    Just the sloppy “method” you used to attempt to prove it.

  110. Sinclair Davidson

    ? Okay – if you say so.

  111. Des Deskperson

    ‘Just the sloppy “method” you used to attempt to prove it.’

    ‘Sloppy’?? Maybe, maybe not.

    (a) Prof Davidson made a number of assumptions about Fraser’s position on various war crimes.
    (b) These assumptions were not unreasonable, given what we know of Fraser’s interests, attitudes and prejudices, both current and historical, and
    (c) these assumptions are now proved to have been correct.

  112. calli

    Oh dear, you too!

    It was just the truth, Patrick. Not at all clever, I’m afraid.

  113. oldsalt

    New Pres of the Melbourne footy club could be interesting on this. He has family still over there who fought the good fight against Mau Mau and Mugabe’s Commos. btw there’s a young bloke on the way up if ever I saw one, only question is which part of liblab will grab him first.

  114. Woolfe

    Mau Mau was in Kenya….

  115. oldsalt

    Yep. Many Brit settler families refer to themselves generically as Central Africans and have family spread across the post Colonial nations.

  116. Woolfe

    Really, Central Africans eh, never heard of that but there you go

  117. Helen

    Mau Mau and Mugabe’s Commos

    True, many families were in Kenya and Rhodesia, or were closely associated.

  118. Sinclair Davidson

    What’s most amazing about Fraser’s press officer’s intervention is that he automatically assumed that I hadn’t done any background checking.

Comments are closed.