I started reading Mike Carlton’s latest screed and got as far as Malcolm Fraser’s tweet:
If any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be named a war crime.
Fraser is very selective in his condemnation of war crimes. In the last week we’re seen an atrocious war crime being committed in the Ukraine – a civilian aircraft was shot out of the sky. To be sure, this is probably an accident, a case of mistaken identity, so it’s war crime and not (also) an act of terrorism. I don’t know if Fraser has condemned the events surrounding MH17 but what of other similar incidents?
In 1978-79 Fraser was prime minister of Australia and engaged in resolving the Zimbabwean conflict.
Soon after Flight 825 took off, a group of ZIPRA guerrillas scored a direct hit on its starboard wing with a Soviet-made Strela 2 surface-to-air infrared homing missile, critically damaging the aircraft and forcing an emergency landing. An attempted belly landing in a cotton field just west of Karoi was foiled by an unseen ditch, which caused the plane to cartwheel and break up. Of the 52 passengers and four crew, 38 died in this crash; the insurgents then approached the wreckage, rounded up the 10 survivors they could see and massacred them with automatic gunfire. Three passengers survived by hiding in the surrounding bush, while a further five lived because they had gone to look for water before the guerrillas arrived.
A civilian aircraft was deliberately shot down and the survivors massacred.
Air Rhodesia Flight 827 … was shot down on 12 February 1979 by Zimbabwe People’s Revolutionary Army (ZIPRA) guerrillas using a Strela 2 missile soon after take-off. The circumstances were very similar to that of Air Rhodesia Flight 825 five months earlier.
Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.
IT is hard to know exactly how much responsibility Malcolm Fraser bears for the installation of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, but it is generally agreed that he played an important role.
Fraser’s 1987 biographer Philip Ayres wrote: “The centrality of Fraser’s part in the process leading to Zimbabwe’s independence is indisputable. All the major African figures involved affirm it.”
The long and short of it is that Fraser is no position to be lecturing anyone on war crimes.
Now that he has headed off to the left it is time we all reflect on the career of Malcolm. Littered with missed opportunities and bad mistakes, Mugabe being just one, Fraser would do everyone a favour by staying out of the light and shutting up. Nowadays Fraser is just another grumpy old man suffering from lack of attention. I give him the 2014 award for boring old fart.
One good thing to come out of the internet is that selective memories are so easily shown to be outright lies.
Quite so, Helen
Before the internet we would have had to take the SMH and what the other denizens that controlled the narrative defined as the truth as gospel.
There are risks with the information dwelling in the intertube, but overall a force for the better.
Two sad old men, who to our country’s eternal embarrassment were briefly popular in the 70′s.
Here again is proof of msm bias.
That we hear anything that this old turnip says.
Do the Cat Collective actually reckon old Mal tweets out all this stuff himself ?
Or has he delegated concern trolling to his biographer Margaret Simons ?
Trousers was irrelevant before his time.
I thought Sarah Hyphen-Seapatrol was doing it on a sub-contract piecework basis? I could be wrong.
I remember seeing Fraser on Q&A once, pontificating about he always KNEW there were no WMD in Iraq. It turned out that he was right on that one (although even Hans Blix was uncertain in February 2003) but if he was so bloody prescient about everything, why didn’t he foresee that Bob Hawke would replace Bill Hayden as Labor leader, after he named the 1983 election date? Why didn’t he foresee that Hawke would whip his butt? Why didn’t he foresee that he’d blubber like a pansey during his concession speech? Why didn’t he foresee he’d be caught without his duds in Memphis? AND why didn’t he foresee that Mugabe would be a tyrant?
Fraser is in no position to lecture anyone – on anything.
He shouldn’t be heard.
‘Or has he delegated concern trolling to his biographer Margaret Simons ?’
The idea that Frazer is being fed his lines is intriguing and plausible.
When he was Prime Minister, it wasn’t just the left who portrayed him as the drongo spawn of an inbred squattocracy. I once worked with a gentleman who had been an Assistant Secretary in PM&C under Frazer and who claimed that he’d had to develop a special, simplified briefing system for Frazer. My colleague used to boast that this system had “made a statesman out of Frazer”.
Nice comment Bill T, but Saddam actually gassed Kurds before the invasion, and gas is generally known as a WMD.
I think it’s about time someone did a very lengthy article about a) the failures of Malcolm when in government, and b) the bollocks he’s been talking since he got the boot.
Whitlam’s premiership was awful, and by late 1975 was in utter chaos. I could forgive Fraser for taking a huge crap on our constitutional arrangements IF his government wasn’t so deeply mediocre. But since it was, in hindsight it’s a simple matter to identify Fraser as the great villain of Armistice Day, 1975.
Trouser Fraser – such a lousy memory that Gerard Henderson of MWD has to constantly correct Fraser’s bad recalls (via Margaret Simons)
In several different sources I’ve read that Fraser was one of our brightest Prime Ministers. Pity we have so little to show for his intelligence. He was just another old fuddy-duddy whose views don’t seem to have changed much since leaving office, in spite of the grand failure of his brand of big government conservatism. No wonder he’s come the full circle and joined the left – they’re the only ones who are interventionist enough for him.
I do love watching the Left, especially its older generation, forced to rally behind the man they considered the Great Satan of Australian politics for so long.
Is it possible that Fraser could be charged with being an accomplice to Mugabes Crimes against Humanity?
Fraser serves the same purpose for the left as that certain Cat troll (who will probably pop up on this thread) – he’s their token ‘conservative politician’ who can be wheeled out when they need need to pretend they represent a plurality of perspectives. Of course they loathe him, will never trust him or forgive him for knocking off Whitlam. But he’s too rare and precious a commodity for the left to ostracise.
Is this the same John Malcolm Fraser of the third class honours degree in history from Oxford? Someone once told me that they don’t fail students at Oxford, they award them a third.
I was on holiday in SA when the first one was brought down. got on the first plane home, straight back into the army for 6 weeks.
That is a great article by Mike Carlton – his justifiable anger shines through like a light.
As he says Israel has become a fascist state. Their response to harmless rocket fire from Hamas, which they defend themselves from extremely easily, is totally disproportionate. How can they support killing over 1000 civilians when there have been so few casualties on their side?
And yet any criticism of these criminal Jews is deemed anti-semitic. Well, they are driving the world to irredeemable anti-semitism.
“As he says Israel has become a fascist state”
Israel is not a democracy?
“How can they support killing over 1000 civilians when there have been so few casualties on their side?”
More Israeli casualties and Israel would cease to be a fascist state?
Although there can hardly be any doubt that Gillard was Australia’s worst Prime Minister, by a fairly long shot by reason of her lying and dissembling and gross incompetence, and Rudd follows after that, there can equally be little doubt that Fraser would have to come in a very close third behind Rudd in the worst Prime Ministerial stakes.
He was a complete and utter fool who was promoted far beyond his level of competence, who wasted a fairly golden opportunity to actually do something for the betterment of the country. That the LNP allowed this man to continue in office when it was clear that he was squandering the opportunity that had been given to him and that he was not up to the job, is a matter of puzzlement to me.
Since then, this slimy Green cretin has be-clowned himself repeatedly, in almost every public utterance he has made, and all the while still sucking off the public teat 40 years or so after his so richly deserved political demise.
Perhaps if you said ‘criminal Israelis’ it would sound less anti-semitic.
You do know that the people of Israel aren’t all Jewish?
And then there’s the small matter of the Lebanese concession and it’s role in creating a large band of Australian brothers in Syria and Iraq who enjoy decapitation.
Not a good composta attempt , kero. It needs to be more subtle.
When are these irrelevant old farts like Fraser going to do our ears, intelligence and wallets a favour and pop their clogs? A lifetime of snorking in the public trough seems to guarantee it’s a lengthy one. At least Billy Sneddin had the grace to kark it early, and on the job as well.
Yes Percy, I do know that. Palestinians make up 20% of the population of Israel. Are you implying that they are part of this criminal slaughter?
On MH17, Fraser was wheeled out by Jon Faine on his show to discuss the issue.
He basically blamed everything on the West…..because we ‘pressure’ Russia so hard, they are ‘forced’ to be violent and undemocratic. If only we left poor little defenceless Russia alone and treated Putin like a kind and friendly democractic figure, everything would be hunky-dory in Europe and MH 17 wouldn’t have been shot down.
Oh, and Abbott was irresponsible and warmongering by demanding the Russians co-operate on securing the site and respecting the bodies. We should butt out of Russian business because they are scrupulously honest and open. Any delays or problems will be 100% Abbott’s fault for hurting the Russians’ feelings.
Hammy’s a fan of airhead Carlton. Big surprise there. JC, have you had any new ideas about theatrical ways you can fire Carlton when Gina takes over Fairfax and the necessary HR bloodbath is turned into a pay-per-view cash bonanza? Carlton’s sacking would surely warrant a multi-episode extravaganza.
No Spammy, arabs make up 20% of the population of Israel. ‘Palestinians’ are a post-1967 invention.
‘But he’s too rare and precious a commodity for the left to ostracise.’
Whatever their motives, some ‘progressives’ certainly fawn all over Fraser.
The last time I saw Fraser live was when he spoke at a gallery exhibition opening in Canberra about three years ago, where he more or less claimed that he’d single handedly demolished Apartheid.
I was struck, however, by the extraordinary behaviour of one of his fans, a little man in an oddly self-consciously ‘rural Australia’ costume – moleskins, tweed jacket, the sort of thing you would wear to a fancy dress ball as a ‘squatter’ – who seemed to be in a sort of lather of adoration for Fraser, wriggling and twitching like a pre-teen at a New Directions concert, clapping and shouting ‘hear hear’ after pretty much every word the old boy-conscripter spoke, annoying and embarrassing even some of the other ‘progressives’ in attendance.
I have reason to believe that this person was Bruce Haigh, a middle ranking member of the Fairfax-ABC corps of ‘progressive’ opinionistas.
This utterly irrational argument had been shown to be false so many times that resurrecting it should be considered an act of wanton trolling.
It requires arguing that an aggressor must be permitted to kill some of your people, before you are morally entitled to use lethal force to stop him.
It requires that being more competent a lethal force than the aggressor , not to mention actually winning, are in themselves immoral.
Carlton’s anger is not justified. It is the pathetic whining of a hater who cannot stand to admit that the object of his hatred is the better party.
Naaa, Fraser was incompetent, and he failed to keep government spending under control, but Red Whitlam was the one who created the paradigm shift from a productive society to an entitlement society. Fraser faffed around ineffectively in the aftermath of Whitlam.
Oco
Yea, there would be a great way to deal with Mitch. Take him into a room to fire him, tease him and when he becomes abusive beat the living shit outta him. Then call the cops and accuse him of being violent after he found out he was booted.
It would be fun.
Fraser is the poster boy for pompous ass-wipery, but Mugabe may not be the best example of it. Going by “Into the Cannibal’s Pot” by Iliana Mercer, a South African now in the US, Mugabe actually held back the population from what would have been an immediate and complete massacre of all white farmers. The alternatives then (and now) are not good.
Quite true…
As Israel is a secular democracy, we can also presume that the majority of them participate in the election of their government. Also that a significant number of them support the continuation of the State of Israel, because they would stand to lose significant freedoms and wealth were they to come under the rule of Hamas.
No Arabs in the Isreali government or military Hammy?
endless stories about fraser going broke as a farmer.
one goodie, fraser had an on property cattle sale,and to make his cattle look bigger,he took the top rail off the cattle yards [or had the working class do it.]
once the top rail was off,the cattle could and did leap the fence and do a ‘running of the bulls’ with frasers would be clients.
interesting to note that the abc never trots fraser out to comment on the animal rights issues that have the swampies frothing.
surely, as an ex-grazier,beloved of the left, fraser would have a farm animal opinion equally as valid as any vegan swampy abc famine victim.
+1,000
A completely fracking stupid and unwarranted and unnecessary mistake, the adverse consequences of which are mounting each day.
My impression is that Mal is entirely conscious that he is a waste of space, and is working furiously in the time he has left to divert people’s attention from his record.
It’s not working. Apart from missing many golden opportunities to better his country and end the slide into socialism, he’ll be remembered for dithering, entrenching socialism and the politics of special interests, for Mugabe, for the Lebanese concession, and for ‘losing’ his trousers.
All the rest – including the sanctimonious tweets – will be forgotten. History will not be kind.
Unfortunately I do accept that there’s a sharp growth of anti-semitism in the West today. What I’m saying is that the Jews are stimulating that racism by dint of their outrageous behaviour, both in Israel and also in the diaspora because of their unconscionable support of that rogue state.
“harmless rocket fire from Hamas, ”
If a Hamas rocket landed on your house Hammy you wouldn’t be calling it harmless. I know you are a wanker Hammy and I can normally put up with that, but your absolute stupidity makes me want to punch your moronic face in.
Fraser. The man who implemented Whitlam and Coombes policies creating the divide between black and white land owners.
A total arze.
Rogue state?
WOnder what Fraser calls the extermination of Christians in Nigeria and parts of the Middle East? What? he doesn’t think those to be war crimes? Not committed by Jews. OIC.
Un-f*cking believable. How about they shoot a few in your direction and you tell us which are harmless.
I still like the idea of dropping from a crane a concrete slab right onto on his car just as he’s approaching it, burdened with boxes full of remnants from his desk.
There’d be Benny Hill music playing in the background. Maybe a clown can materialise out of nowhere and slam a custard pie into his aghast face as he takes in the visage of his compacted car.
Or you could drive a steamroller over his car instead of the concrete slab.
No, I’ve got it – squash it with a tank!!
Look, hammy is just deliberately baiting people here by using dead Gazans as his prop and treating this entire Israel/Hamas war as a joke. You see, to him it is all a hoot, a laugh, a bit of fun and all in order to get attention here.
Fraser embodies everything wrong with conservatism.
Yes Percy, I do know that. Palestinians make up 20% of the population of Israel. Are you implying that they are part of this criminal slaughter?
Fraser was elected with the biggest majority the parliament had seen, and was put in government to reverse the course Whitlam’s government had set Australia on. He did not do this.
Instead he simply changed the brand of the grease used to quieten the squeaking wheels.
He was voted out after after two terms and could not understand why he was regarded as a failure. While Gillard and Rudd were formidable competitors, I still believe Fraser was the worst PM we have had.
If you believe that the growth in anti-semitism is justified by the actions of “criminal Jews” (your words), why did you say “Unfortunately…” ???
Surely you really mean, “Fortunately, there’s been a sharp growth of anti-semitism”.
Define what you mean by a rogue state, Kero. No fucking around. Define it.
Do you actually mean Israel has no right to exist? Yes or no?
The UN and its associated ‘human rights’ lawyers have tightened the rules so much that waging war is now a war crime.
What the hand-wringers conveniently ignore, is that most terrorists are civilians by definition. Doesn’t mean that they are “innocent”, or that they are not legit targets.
Not when its done by ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda, Taliban, Hamas etc
That’s whay the body count in Gaza is difficult to measure. Hamas rats don’t wear uniforms, so if Israel blows up a bunch of these scumbags they would invariably get counted as part of the civ population. Hamas rats also put kids in front of them too.
I see no difference between Fraser and Mugabe. They have the same beliefs and the same public positions. They even have the same CVs, leader of a Commonwealth nation whose economy they ruined through incompetence and stupidity. There are so very many Rhodesians who can’t wait to piss on his grave that whoever opens a teashop nearby will do exceedingly well, unlike any plants nearby.
Perhaps we could donate some ex-PMs as subhuman shields? Our bit for helping Hamarse in a way that also benefits the taxpayer.
This is about right. Fraser was not one of our worst PMs. He was arguably our most mediocre, however. He criminally squandered the opportunity to make much needed economic reforms that we credit Hawke and Keating with today.
I would not gripe so much about Fraser’s mediocrity if he had have become Prime Minister in the conventional manner. But he engineered Whitlam’s dismissal and went on to turn in a premiership that demonstrated it clearly wasn’t worth undermining our constitutional arrangements so that we could have a Fraser PM in late 1975 rather than in some time in 1976 (probably sooner rather than later considering the shambolic state of the Whitlam government by Nov 1975).
The dismissal made it easy for the left to install the widely accepted narrative that the Whitlam government was underhandedly stymied and sabotaged all the way through its terms in office by its opponents, which is why it was so disastrously bad. The much-overlooked Truth Of The Matter is that Whitlam was simply a rubbish PM in charge of an ill-disciplined rabble.
Fraser martyred, beatified and canonised Whitlam in one fell swoop on November 11th, 1975. We live with the consequences of that today; long after the merits for removing Whitlam faded into irrelevance.
Wrong.
I sleep easy knowing future Hamarse scum are being wiped out. Totally consciencable.
They voted for Hamarse. They are as guilty as the individuals who fire the rockets.
Maybe we can ship anyone on the boat in the Indian Ocean off to help Hamarse.
Save the taxpayers some more money.
Open an offshore detention centre in Gaza. Would be hilarious.
OCO
Mitch really does have a very punchable face. Take a looksee.
He’s ‘orrible. This one (Billy Idol’s Gramps) is a better fist magnet IMHO.
Ergh, hark at his crappy leather jacket. Act your age, pops.
And it seems he has hair plugs. Yeah yeah.
Carlton socialises with Fitzsimmons and hides behind his skirts when his poisonous mouth gets fists travelling towards his punchable face.
I don’t know why someone hasn’t deck him.
Typical response from a totalitarian thug. Violence is always the answer against those who disagree.
Malcolm Fraser was Army Minister in 1966 and oversaw the re-introduction of conscription for young Australian men (my husband was in the 4th intake, April 1966, Numbers was a bit later) and oversaw the early prosecution of Australian army involvement in the war during his time as Minister for the Army.
How he can now whitewash his political past, be an apologist for that ugly racist Robert Mugabe, and drop all sorts of crap on Israel, USA and the rest of the West while never admitting for a moment that he sent 550+ young Australians to their deaths in Vietnam…Words fail me about this monumental turd.
Alzheimers must be a wonderful thing.
Not that I’m an apologist for Mr. Fraser (far from it), but I do not understand the point you’re trying to make with this post.
ZIPRA was the military wing of ZAPU, not ZANU-PF.
Perhaps you could clarify this for me?
Yes – that is correct.
No one has decked carlton because carlton hides behind fitzsimmons who is about 2 meters tall and 150 kilos of bully-boy left wing shit.
Yes, I know it is correct.
What I do not understand is why you appear to have linked Robert Mugabe and the downing of Flight 827 by ZIPRA.
That is the point I wish to have clarified.
“response to harmless rocket fire from Hamas, which they defend themselves from extremely easily, is totally disproportionate.”
Hamster:
Just because HAMAS rocket troops are incompetent, doesn’t mean that Israel has to accept the ongoing risk of random death for its civilian population.
The aim of war is to visit disproportionate retaliation on your enemy, to persuade said enemy that the war is a bad idea.
“You do know that the people of Israel aren’t all Jewish?”
Hamster:
I understand that the commander of one of the Israeli brigades operating in Gaza (recently wounded in action, but now returned to duty) is a Druse Arab (feel free to Google it yourself). Where does he fit into your anti-Jewish rant?
I have linked ZIPRA to Mugabe? Really? Perhaps you could provide the quote where I say that? Take as long as you like.
No – disproportionate retaliation ia a war crime.
Nothing anti-Jewish about my statements (not rants by the way). All I’m saying is that the behaviour of the Jewish populations inside and outside of Israel encourages and breeds anti-semitism. In fact I’m pro-Jewish.
What, like firing rockets at a nuclear reactor? Or only like firing rockets indiscriminately at civilian targets?
Or like planning to kill or kidnap three entire towns?
Rant away, big boy. Any time you like. We are quite happy to take note of your siding with Class A war criminals.
Yeah, like Hamas is “pro-Jewish”.
What is the point of mentioning Flight 827 in the same post as mentioning that Fraser was instrumental in bringing about the transition to the new Zimbabwean government with Mugabe at is head?
It is irrelevant.
How is it irrelevant?
Not always, Kero. Occasionally it’s warranted. I think you’d have a very punchable face for instance and you too deserve a decent throttling, even if you are doing a poor man’s composta imitation, which I think you are.
It isn’t disproportionate. The Israelis are very good at protecting their people from harmful weapons. Hamas is very good at exposing their people to harmful weapons – it’s Hamas’s most powerful weapon, actually. And hammy’s stupid enough to lap it up uncritically.
Israel is not a democracy?
It you are a Jew (by whatever definition that comes be it Khazar or actual Jew) then for you it is a democracy.
Malcolm Fraser absolutely gives me the sh*ts. Back in 2010, on Q&A, I had a chance to try to get him to put a sock in it…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldBI8cvyZro
lol well done, Bill. Notice how Springer-Jones interrupts to save Fraser.
Paul – do you have strong views on fractional reserve banking?
No actually, it isn’t.
However, indiscriminately firing rockets at a civilian population IS.
Did I miss the bit where you condemned that?
A more accurate definition would be that the aim of war is to prevent your opponent from achieving his objectives… Retaliation is just one tactic by which this may be achieved, in that it raises the cost of aggression.
In this case, the objective of Hamas is to obliterate Israel and kill as many Jews as possible. Therefore, the countermeasures currently employed by Israel are justified.
Unfortunately, we still have people like Hammy who pretend that it is some kind of tit-for-tat schoolyard game. He appears completely ignorant of the historical fact that purely defensive war is only ever a delaying tactic……. If there are no disproportionate consequences for the aggressor, he can continue to attack on his own terms until he finds a method that is successful.
Merely because Iron Dome is (relatively) successful now, does not mean that we can depend on Hamas playing by the current rules like sportsmen.
‘ even if you are doing a poor man’s composta imitation, which I think you are.’
I’ve said it before, if he’s a poor man’s Composta, what’s he doing here? Shouldn’t he be trolling on left wing sites, getting the dolts to agree with him and then laughing at them? That’s what Arlene did par excellence. Surely he’s wasting his time here, where we all know already that leftists are drongos.
I believe he’s dinkum.
So what’s the solution?
The ME seems to be a hot bed of religious/ethnic fuelled violence, not sure what dog Australia has in that fight/those fights?
Having said that has Abbott cut off the ‘foreign aid’ for Hamas yet?
No. He has increased it even more today. Labor backbencher Melissa Parke, who is blatantly pro-palestinian, has accused the government of adopting a “blatantly pro-Israel position”.
So the government today has donated a further $5 million to Hamas.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/aust-gives-5m-to-help-people-in-gaza/story-fn3dxiwe-1227003847408
Composta was running a full scale blog, whereas poor old Hammy is just a commenter. You can’t compare the two.
If you really believe he’s a right-winger satirising a rabid lefty, why are you so livid about him? You must live your life in a perpetual state of anger.
Peter Goodwin is quite the best writer IMHO on Rhodesia and Zimbabwe.
I bought Makiwa while I was there, followed by When a Crocodile eats the Sun and later, The Fear. His parents lived and worked there, he grew up there and than had to leave, he is a Journalist who still loves his country.
My friend said to me ‘I am an African.’ She now lives in Australia and the most horrific things have happened to people I met when I visited there. It haunts me still, the quiet farmer who came in before his wife was about to give me an oil massage. Some years later after I left, she was in the back of the ambulance trying to unwrap the barbed wire from around his neck. He died. My friend’s brothers are still there, though most of the family is now In Australia. Another family I met their cook had her legs broken becasue she warned the family the Terrs were coming. That family were eventually got after I left and more unrest broke out. He was fighting alone with a broken leg from room to room, disabling rifles as he used the ammunition. I shared his bread at his table and he is dead.
I asked my friend why don’t you fight back – the Matabele are your friends, not Magabe’s Shona, rise up with the Matabele and beat them but she said we no longer have the weapons, we have only hunting rifles.
So maybe it would have been better if Magabe had not ‘held them back’ They could have fought on then while their training and skills were fresh and in the end result has been the same – total decimation of the farming community. It just happened slower.
It is irrelevant because it does not support your proposition that Fraser selectively condemns war crimes.
You have not shown, for instance, that at that time Mugabe was regarded by anyone as war criminal.
You have not shown that, even if Mugabe was a war criminal, that Fraser did (or did not) condemn those war crimes (e.g., by reference to contemporary news accounts).
If you wish to put forward the proposition that Fraser selectively condemns war crimes according to some whim, then it is wise to also put forward supporting statements which confirm it’s truth.
Consider your other supporting statements in this post.
1. “I don’t know if Fraser has condemned the events surrounding MH17, but what of other similar incidents?
By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have condemned the events of MH17. Therefore, this example cannot possibly be used in support of your proposition. So why mention it?
2. In relation to Air Rhodesia Flight 825 you said:
“Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.”
By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have been “appalled” by this event. You have provided no evidence whatsoever (e.g. in the form of contemporary accounts) that he did or did not condemn these events. Therefore, this statement cannot possibly be taken to support your proposition.
3. In relation to Air Rhodesia Flight 827, you said (again):
“”Maybe Fraser was appalled by these war crimes and acts of terrorism. Perhaps not.”
See 2, above.
The long and the short of it is that this post is heavy on innuendo and very short on actual truth.
Sloppy work. You can do better.
Patrick G – easy then. Simply provide a link to where your mate Fraser condemned the ZIPRA attacks. Shouldn’t be too hard – he was PM at the time.
Looks to me that you’re an apologist for war criminals, terrorists and Fraser too.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. Oh dear.
He won the peace prize for helping down the jet.
It is obvious that the purpose of my post has gone completely over both your heads.
Please point out where I explicitly stated that Mugabe WAS NOT a war criminal.
‘By your own admission you have confirmed that Fraser may or may not have condemned the events of MH17′
I’ve done a quick search and I can find no evidence that Fraser has condemned the MH 17 attacks. Perhaps Patrick can do better.
A key point about Fraser the born again compassionista is that his new thoughts, widely circulated and praised though they may be, don’t ever seem to have developed beyond the standard received wisdoms and mental cliches of the sub-cerebral ‘progressive’. It is not unreasonable, therefore, to assume, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, that he takes the standard anti- west ‘progressive’ line on the tragedy, namely that Putin is being victimised.
Right here – the words, “even if” as if he wasn’t.
I refuse to believe the doddering old windbag from Bill Thompson’s Q&A video of 2010 is actually tweeting anything under his own steam.
Fraser is just a brand name for some lefty collective issuing agitprop in his name.
Thank you, Des.
However…
You and I are not obliged to provide evidence that Fraser has condemned or not condemned war crimes according to whatever takes his fancy.
Mr. Davidson is. It’s his post. He should prove his proposition to the readers.
I repeat, this is not about me liking Fraser or being his apologist. I am simply making a comment about the content of this website and how it’s presented. Mr. Davidson needs to do better.
Unbelievable.
I don’t believe you.
Des Deskperson – I did more than a quick search. I could find nothing on Fraser condemning war crimes in the Rhodesia-Zimbabwe conflict. In addition there is no criticism of Mugabe in the period after 1980. On the contrary I could find criticism of Fraser keeping his silence.
But, of course, there is no satisfying apologists like Patrick G.
Now you’re getting it!
All of a sudden, what was a sloppy post is starting to take on some respectability!
Well done. See, it wasn’t that hard.
Anyone of importance, you mean? Having heard many tales from white Zim farmers, forced to flee their properties at gunpoint, I would have to say that they considered him one.
Oh dear, you too!
You have completely missed the point of my commentary.
Yes Patrick – you’re only person who knows what you’re talking about.
I make this simple then, so that even you can understand it.
I DO NOT DISAGREE WITH YOUR ASSERTION ABOUT MALCOLM FRASER.
Just the sloppy “method” you used to attempt to prove it.
? Okay – if you say so.
‘Just the sloppy “method” you used to attempt to prove it.’
‘Sloppy’?? Maybe, maybe not.
(a) Prof Davidson made a number of assumptions about Fraser’s position on various war crimes.
(b) These assumptions were not unreasonable, given what we know of Fraser’s interests, attitudes and prejudices, both current and historical, and
(c) these assumptions are now proved to have been correct.
It was just the truth, Patrick. Not at all clever, I’m afraid.
New Pres of the Melbourne footy club could be interesting on this. He has family still over there who fought the good fight against Mau Mau and Mugabe’s Commos. btw there’s a young bloke on the way up if ever I saw one, only question is which part of liblab will grab him first.
Mau Mau was in Kenya….
Yep. Many Brit settler families refer to themselves generically as Central Africans and have family spread across the post Colonial nations.
Really, Central Africans eh, never heard of that but there you go
True, many families were in Kenya and Rhodesia, or were closely associated.
What’s most amazing about Fraser’s press officer’s intervention is that he automatically assumed that I hadn’t done any background checking.