Greenhouse follies must end

In The Australian today:

“The carbon tax may have gone, but the players have not moved on. For the Greens, its resurrection is only a matter of time. Labor, ever reluctant to face realities, pretends to maintain the rage, much as it did with the GST. Meanwhile, the lessons of the fiasco, and its implications for the Abbott government, are ignored.”

About Henry Ergas

Henry Ergas is a columnist for The Australian newspaper and the inaugural Professor of Infrastructure Economics at the SMART Infrastructure Facility at the University of Wollongong. The SMART Infrastructure Facility is a $61.8 million world-class research and training centre concerned with integrated infrastructure solutions for the future. Henry is also Senior Economic Adviser to Deloitte Australia. Prior to these concurrent roles Henry worked as a consultant economist at NECG, CRA International and Concept Economics. Henry's previous career was as an economist at the OECD in Paris, where amongst other roles he headed the Secretary-General’s Task Force on Structural Adjustment and was Counsellor for Structural Policy in the Economics Department.
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71 Responses to Greenhouse follies must end

  1. Rafe

    Good post by Don Aitkin.

    Because governments everywhere, even here, where the carbon tax has been thrown out, are still apparently committed to the consensus view that carbon dioxide is the villain — and they do so because all the official sources, like learned academies, say so. Well, I’m with her, in part. But the reasons governments behave this way is that they are conscious of the electorate, and there is a substantial body of passionate opinion out that ‘believes’ in ‘climate change’. She didn’t say so in her paper, but it is not going away at all quickly.
    So government will do what they think they have to to balance the books, get the budget into shape, and so on. But they won’t frontally say that the science has moved on. They will throw out carbon taxes, and they will abolish subsidies for expensive alternative energy, and they will block demands more wind turbines. But they’ll do so without saying that ‘climate change is crap’, as somebody once said — but that was before he became PM.

  2. Ant

    It helps to understand Greenfilthism is you parallel it with religious fanaticism.

    Reason and logic don’t work.

  3. Ant

    But they’ll do so without saying that ‘climate change is crap’, as somebody once said — but that was before he became PM.

    You know, it helps if people don’t lie, especially seeing that the Global Warming Racket is built on a mountain of lies and exaggerations.

    When people verbal Abbott like this they’re being disingenous and stupid.

  4. Bruce of Newcastle

    Two fine articles today on why the RET must go.

    The Ups and Downs of German Green Energy

    The ups and downs of renewable energy production in Germany are causing big problems for the country’s grid.

    Germany’s drive to almost double power output from renewables by 2035 has seen one operator reporting five times as many potential disruptions as four years ago, raising the risk of blackouts in Europe’s biggest electricity market…

    Wind Turbines & White Elephants

    Describes a dozen inadvised wind turbine installations in the UK which have had to be shut down, went bankrupt or which save no CO2 at all. Blackouts are also expected in the UK as early as next winter due to their renewables policies.

    But to counter all my negative propaganda a study has now found that offshore wind turbines are good for barnacles. Yes, seriously.

  5. Gab

    Germany’s drive to almost double power output from renewables by 2035 has seen one operator reporting five times as many potential disruptions as four years ago, raising the risk of blackouts in Europe’s biggest electricity market…

    How many more decades and how much more money is going to be wasted chasing this foolish notion that “green” energy can replaced fossil fuels in terms of baseload power? The stupid, it burns.

  6. cohenite

    A green energy supplier should be sued on the basis of misrepresentation. That wouldn’t change the minds [sic] of the alarmists as the 2006 High Court case against An Inconvenient Truth did not change the minds [sic] of alarmists but it may change the mind of government about the RET.

  7. Leo G

    “But it is not the instrument that is flawed; it is the goal that makes no sense. What conceivable purpose is served by policies which have no effect whatsoever on global emissions but damage our prosperity? And were dangerous climate change indeed in prospect, how could making us poorer facilitate the adjustments Australia will have to undertake?” – Henry Ergas

    Moreover, the value of present emission reductions rapidly diminishes in the long term- the marginal reduction in the amount of atmospheric CO2 at a future time from emission reductions in the present halves every 24 years (virtual sequestration effect).
    A rational approach is to avoid policies which may hinder decisions to replace fossil fuel sources when that replacement is the most beneficial course. An irrational approach is to hinder the development of fossil fuel sources while therein is the greatest net benefit.

  8. This is what you get when you misrepresent what you’re trying to sell. Carbon is the vehicle by which the left introduced costs on pollution. It invariably morphed into a cronyist gravy train on which their livelihoods are reliant. You can’t fix problems with corruption.

    The fact is, there are already taxes on fossil fuels and consumption – fuel excises and the GST. A bit of tweaking to those and including the externalised costs of pollution into costs of production would have achieved the desired goal, all without cronyism and disadvantaging Australian industry.

  9. incoherent rambler

    But the reasons governments behave this way is that they are conscious of the electorate, and there is a substantial body of passionate opinion out that ‘believes’ in ‘climate change’.

    A novel idea would be to instruct the climate change authority to disseminate some truth.
    Problem solved.

  10. BilB

    Removing the price on carnon has not removed Global Warming, or changed the physical effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. To suggest otherwise is to continue the delusion that our climate is not changing, and not changing at an unnatural pace.

    I can’t respond specifically to the article as that wouldmrequire payment of money to the Australian Newspaper, and that will ever happen. If Henry Ergas summarises the salient points I will be able the demonstrate the

  11. JohnA

    BilB #1396892, posted on July 28, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    Removing the price on carnon has not removed Global Warming, or changed the physical effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. To suggest otherwise is to continue the delusion that our climate is not changing, and not changing at an unnatural pace.

    I can’t respond specifically to the article as that wouldmrequire payment of money to the Australian Newspaper, and that will ever happen. If Henry Ergas summarises the salient points I will be able the demonstrate the

    Let me help you straighten that out a bit…

    Removing Imposing the price on carnbon has not removed Global Warming, or changed the physical effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. To suggest otherwise is to continue the delusion that our climate is not changing, and not changing at an unnatural pace.

  12. BilB

    Continuing….fallacies of his thing where they occur. The larger delusion is in thinking that most Australians believe the Abbott lies on Climate Change and carbon emissions, and that they were unhappy with the renewable energy initiatives. The last election was by far the largest attack on peoples intelligence mounted by a right wing captive media in Australia’s history. But being able to mount a false impression on Global Warming will be difficult to reproduce more than once or twice, as the evidence of climate change is becoming ever more obvious.

  13. incoherent rambler

    Give it up Bill, the belief system has been shattered. It is over.
    Belief in AGW has less science to support it than belief in Mickey Mouse as a god.

    Ocean acidification is trending. You might try that one. “The acid will dissolve us all!”

  14. BilB

    You are right John A, a long term strategy that ran for just one year has not solved Global Warming. Spring weather has very certainly set in here in Western Sydney, it has done so at the very time that David Evans has predicted a plunge into a new ice age. The denialist delusion knows no bounds.

  15. BilB

    Incoherent Rambler, still incoherent.

  16. Gab

    We could turn off all the power in Australia, close down all business, stop all road and rail activity and it would still make not one iota of difference to the climate. Not now, not in 100 years’ time.

    As CO2 has increased by 10% over the last decade, the glowbull temperature has not increased. But the greenfilth acolytes continue to worship at the alter of the climate scam.

  17. Bruce of Newcastle

    BilB – 5/6ths of temperature rise last century was due to natural causes. About 1/6th was due to CO2. Because the effect of CO2 is logarithmic it therefore cannot be dangerous at all.

    For that reason any action which harms any person, animal or bird, either physically or economically, is immoral compared with the case of doing nothing.

    If you can offer actions which are not harmful, then they would be worth considering. But a carbon tax is harmful, as the closure of the Kurri aluminium smelter near me shows, and renewable energy which costs more than baseload coal, or which imposes costs upon other industries of energy providers, is likewise immoral. It also is causing an environmental catastrophe by massacring wildlife. RET must be removed, since it is both harming people and the environment.

  18. BilB

    Gab, I think that you need to discuss this with Judith Curry who says that Global Warming is continuing, only the pace is conjectured. Any realistic observation of the global average temperature figures shows a slow down in the rate of increase, similar to several previous slowdowns. This does not mean that global warming has ceased, particularly as during that period ice loss has continued at an unprecedented rate setting several startling records for both lower mass and summer ice extent. You have to process ALL of the information consecutively, Gab, not just the one bit that your denialist cult leaders want you to focus on.

  19. cohenite

    Jesus, who is this fuckwit?

  20. Gab

    who is this fuckwit?

    He’s a science denier. A flatearther.

  21. BilB

    BoN, you cannot with a straight face say that the closure of your smelter had anything at all to do with the Carbon Price. For starters the Carbon Price was applied for just a year, the smelter if I recal correctly had an exemption, and the smelter operators declared that the closure was not related to climate change action. This is entirely due to the strength of the Australian dollar and low metal prices. As this is direct from the lips of the management to say otherwise is either foolish ignorance, or deliberate missinformation. Which is it BoN?

  22. BilB

    Oh here we go, I’ve triggered the tourettes “sufferers” into voice.

  23. cohenite

    CO2 tax and aluminium smelting. The aluminium industry was specifically targeted by the Gillard government and the CO2 tax.

  24. cohenite

    Bilby, you’re arrogance is only exceeded by your stupidity. You are a classic alarmist. No conversation is possible with your type; your only utility is to be insulted for cathartic relief.

  25. Bruce of Newcastle

    BilB:

    Carbon tax blamed for closure of Hunter Valley smelter

    Norsk Hydro blamed the carbon tax. It was their smelter. You’ve heard of ‘the last straw that broke the camel’s back’?

    Keep in mind that Norsk Hydro was risking severe penalty for saying this since Gillard resolved to heavily fine companies who ‘unjustly blamed the carbon tax’.

    It wasn’t just Kurri. Tomago was forced to cut back and Point Henry closed too. Thousands of people lost their jobs directly and indirectly.

  26. Ivan Denisovich

    particularly as during that period ice loss has continued at an unprecedented rate

    Scientist’s credibility on thin ice:

    Here he bobs up again to explain that global warming is actually causing something else he didn’t predict – record sea ice around Antarctica

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/mark_serreze_more_ice_less_ice_just_blame_global_warming/

  27. BilB

    Here is the announcement Cohenite

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/kurri-kurri-smelter-closure-to-trigger-450-job-losses-20120523-1z42a.html

    Note the article date May 2012. Note the comments of the management. Note your foolishness.

  28. JC

    Bilby, you’re arrogance is only exceeded by your stupidity. You are a classic alarmist. No conversation is possible with your type; your only utility is to be insulted for cathartic relief.

    Yep, that’s what I always say.

    Beat it Bilby. Go on, fuck off.

  29. Bruce of Newcastle

    particularly as during that period ice loss has continued at an unprecedented rate

    There’s a comment from me in moderation or the spam bucket. I was pointing out that Antarctic sea ice was at an all-time record only a month ago, that the Arctic has been below average temperature all summer so far. And Arctic sea ice is the highest its been for years at present.

    None of this is compatible with global warming. I’m basing on the DMI data. Maybe wordpress doesn’t like Danes, so I won’t include the links again in case I get sin-binned a second time.

  30. Tom

    We’re all going to die. Or not.

  31. Bruce of Newcastle

    BilB – Obviously you don’t credit the ABC or Mark Colvin in the article I linked from May 2012 also.

    I suspect if even a lefty doesn’t accept what the ABC says it is really useless and should therefore be defunded.

  32. Tom

    your denialist cult leaders

    LOL.

  33. Neville

    BillB even the 2014 Royal Society and National Academy of Science joint report admits that there is ZIP we can do to change co2 levels FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

    https://royalsociety.org/news/2014/climate-change-evidence-causes/
    And that’s if ALL Human Emissions of co2 stopped today. What does it take for you to start to wake up? The mitigation of so called CAGW is the greatest fraud and PONZI scheme for the last hundred years. So why should we pour trillions of dollars down the drain for hundreds of years for a big fat ZERO return on our money?

  34. BilB

    Ivan D,

    If you look at the Antarctic Sea ice information where there is a greater spread there is an average 10% loss for this time of year in ice mass. Very much the glacier story, ice spreads out as it warms and thaws. And where is that fresh cold melt water going? It is moving away from the pole with the currents to suppress what would otherwise be an overdue El Nino. Time will tell how this plays out.

  35. Ivan Denisovich

    BilB, the excuses have worn thin. There’s a litany of hopeless predictions, invariably followed by revisionism and re-setting the apocolypse clock.

  36. cohenite

    bilby links to Fairfax which doesn’t mention the part played by the CO2 tax in smelter closures; from my link:

    Executive summary
    On 10 July 2011, the Prime Minister announced details of Australia’s proposed carbon pricing mechanism as part of its Clean Energy Future policy package, a set of policy measures designed to reduce Australia greenhouse gas emissions and to encourage a ‘cleaner’ energy sector.. At the same time as the scheme was announced, economic modelling was released by the Commonwealth Treasury in support of the policy package… The climate change scenarios modelled in this report are based around the Commonwealth Treasury modelling of the Government’s Clean Energy Future proposal…

    Industry impacts
    In terms of sectoral impacts, the most significant impacts — in output, value added and employment terms — are the emissions intensive manufacturing industries of aluminium production and other non-ferrous metals. Specifically, aluminium output is projected to decrease by about 31% by 2020, while output of other non-ferrous metals is projected to decrease by around 56% by 2030, relative to the reference case. This is despite aluminium receiving assistance as a trade exposed, emission intensive sector (which implies no assistance would result in significantly higher losses as production shifted to other countries).

    The Australian Aluminium Council last year warned how devastating the tax would be:

    This imposes a carbon cost on Australian aluminium producers of at least $60 per tonne of aluminium compared to only $8 per tonne in China. Australia’s carbon cost will rise every year of the scheme and over the next decade to more than $200 per tonne of aluminium while in China it is not expected to get any higher than $60…

    “This means the total carbon cost to be paid by the aluminium industry will rise from approximately $120 million in the first year to approximately $400 million in 2020… This is putting jobs in Gladstone, Geelong, Hunter Valley, Portland, Tasmania and Western Australia on the line when no other country is exposing their industry to the same risks.”

    Alcoa to the Gillard Government last October:

    Given the extraordinary electricity intensity of aluminium smelting and limitations of supply opportunities in Victoria, Alcoa has no flexibility to obtain its long term power needs from anywhere other than Victorian brown coal?fired generators. Therefore, unless provision is made to increase the EAF (Electricity Allocation Factor) above 1.0 (tCO2/MWh) the two Victorian aluminium smelters will be extremely exposed to carbon cost impacts in the future. This situation will impact the future economic viability of these two smelters and is exacerbated by low aluminium prices, the historically high value of the Australian dollar and higher key input prices.

  37. cohenite

    bilby says this:

    If you look at the Antarctic Sea ice information where there is a greater spread there is an average 10% loss for this time of year in ice mass. Very much the glacier story, ice spreads out as it warms and thaws. And where is that fresh cold melt water going? It is moving away from the pole with the currents to suppress what would otherwise be an overdue El Nino. Time will tell how this plays out.

    That is so ignorant it could have been written by a chook. 2 of the best papers about how glaciers melt are by Ollier and more technically Aschwanden.

    Needless to say ice doesn’t spread out and warm as it thaws as knucklehead suggests.

    One of the more interesting aspects of ice measurement is Glacial Isostatic Adjustment. GIA, which in layman’s terms simply refers to the fact that more ice may give a less reading by satellite because more ice will contract the bedrock and the satellite signal will move further giving a false positive as it were.

    This won’t matter to bilby who is just a negative.

  38. Neville

    Bilby here’s another interesting 2014 world glacier study that doesn’t support your CAGW delusion.

    http://www.the-cryosphere.net/8/659/2014/tc-8-659-2014.html

    The Leclercq et al study found that world glacier retreat was greater before 1950 and since 1950 glacier retreat had slowed. Rather stuffs up your delusional nonsense about impacts of higher co2 emissions.
    And there are at least 25 recent PR SL studies that back this up. Most show the same projected SLR that occurred during the 20 th century. IOW no change at all.

    But put us out of our misery and answer the Bolt question. By how much would we reduce temp by if we kept Labor’s idiotic co2 tax. Prof Roger Jones estimates an unmeasurable 0.0038 C, So what do you think and why would you want us to waste endless billions $ down the drain for a zero return?

  39. BilB

    Here is a news flash for you Neville, you are contributing nothing to climate change action, and yet your electricity price will continue to rise with the sale of electricity assets now certain to proceed.

  40. Tom

    Can’t you people see what Bilby is so passionately trying to tell you? It’s capitalism that’s the problem.

  41. Bruce of Newcastle

    BilB – The day the carbon tax came into force the wholesale price of electricity doubled and tripled in Victoria. Since the carbon tax was repealed they’ve nearly halved.

    If RET was repealed the same type of thing would occur. We’d be back to sensible pricing.

  42. Neville

    Bilby I’ve just proved to you that there is ZIP you can do to change the climate and anyhow I’ve also shown that THERE IS NO NEED to CHANGE it, even if you could. And you can’t. But by all means answer the Bolt question and tell us how to mitigate CAGW. I’m sure the RS and NAS will be suitably impressed if you can wipe thousands of years off their best guesstimate.

  43. BilB

    Neville all that says is that glaciers have retreated to an altitude that reduces their demise. The heat effects of global warming are mostly at lower altitudes where it serves to inncrease wager evaporation hence the moisture content of the air. This moisture reduces the density of the air and circulation increases, hence more agressive storms. More circulation alters the way the air pressure cells perform, hence broad climate change. Its simple really and it all begins with that small influence of CO2 on backscatter infra red radiation.

  44. Leo G

    “If you look at the Antarctic Sea ice information where there is a greater spread there is an average 10% loss for this time of year in ice mass. Very much the glacier story, ice spreads out as it warms and thaws. And where is that fresh cold melt water going? It is moving away from the pole with the currents to suppress what would otherwise be an overdue El Nino. Time will tell how this plays out.” – BilB

    According to the AMS Modeled Trends in Antarctic Sea Ice Thickness for the period 1992 to 2010, published 2 months ago, overall Antarctic sea ice volume has increased by approximately 30 cubic km3 per year (0.4%) as an equal result of areal expansion (20,000 sq km per year or 0.2%) and thickening (1.5 mm per year or 0.2%).
    The story has changed significantly since- with substantial increases in Antarctic Sea Ice extent and volume.
    As for the fresh (sic) cold melt water which you claim currents move away from the pole to suppress El Niño, that’s complete nonsense. No one with the slightest understanding of the subject would honestly make such an assertion. The Antarctic Circumpolar Current acts very strongly to divide surface waters surrounding the ice from warmer surface waters at lower latitudes. The Antarctic Convergence further isolates that meltwater.

  45. BilB

    I’ll look into that BoN, but take note retail prices have little to do with the cost of production,mparticularly in Victoria where the distributors saw the carhon pricenremovalmcoming and restructured appropriately to eliminate the need to forgo their markups.

  46. Bruce of Newcastle

    OK, BilB, I’ll go find some graphs. Here we go.

    Here is the DMI Arctic sea ice as of yesterday. You can follow his link to the original data for today’s data. As you can see it is pretty much equal highest for ten years.

    Here is the Arctic temperature this summer, again you can follow the link to the original if you want. It hasn’t reached average yet this summer – below the whole time.

    Here is the Antarctic sea ice area anomaly. A few weeks ago it was the highest its been since 1979.

    World sea ice area is about 400,000 km^2 above average as of today.

    The Grace data you have been alluding to but not linking shows an icecap loss of about 19 Gt/y (data from Feb this year) which means it will all melt in only 1,395,000 years.

    I am yet to hear a believable explanation how global warming can cause more ice, especially when more ice increases global albedo quite a lot.

    It ain’t happening BilB. Take your bat, ball and filthy RET and go away.

  47. BilB

    You can see the whole story here in figure 6, Leo G,

    http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

    And you can see the cold water dispersing.

  48. Leo G

    Neville all that says is that glaciers have retreated to an altitude that reduces their demise

    Glaciers don’t retreat at their accumulation zone but at their terminus, not even temperate glaciers. The demise of a glacier has more to do with reduced accumulation or increased ablation from variable accumulation.

  49. incoherent rambler

    He’s a science denier. A flatearther.

    No. Just arithmetically challenged.

  50. chrisl

    I wonder what Bilby would have said about Melbourne Dam levels at the height of the scare(TM)… May never fill again….rivers won’t flow…. permanent restrictions. But look they are 5 percentage points higher than last year (77% full)

  51. BilB

    One dimensional thinking again, BoN. The amount ice is a function of the thickness, spread and concentration. Huge chunks breaking off from the ice as a product of the under mining warmer ocean currents temporarily increase the amount of ice “rubble”.

    http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/earth20130613.html#.U9X-x6g_5J8

  52. BilB

    Incoherent Rambler, ….still incoherent.

  53. cohenite

    The heat effects of global warming are mostly at lower altitudes where it serves to inncrease wager evaporation hence the moisture content of the air.

    What the fuck is wager evaporation?

    Anyway moisture in the atmosphere is a vexed question; overall water vapour is falling; crucially WV is falling in the upper atmosphere; WV in the Stratosphere allows high frequency solar radiation to enter the Earth’s atmosphere but blocks outgoing longwave radiation; high WV is falling as Soloman et al find.

    Even the IPCC in AR5 agree WV is not increasing as their feature paper finds: Thomas H. Vonder Haar, Janice L. Bytheway and John M. Forsythe. Weather and climate analyses using improved global water vapor observations. GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 39, L15802, 6 PP., 2012. doi:10.1029/2012GL052094.

  54. incoherent rambler

    Alert. Bill wants to believe. Leave him be.
    (besides it poisons the thread)

  55. Bruce of Newcastle

    And you can see the cold water dispersing.

    BilB – What you don’t see is the snow falling. That balances out the glacier melt.

    Apologies I misread this webpage, the GRACE data is 71 Gt/y mass loss from the Antarctic ice cap. That means it will take roughly 373 thousand years to melt at that rate. I suspect since temperatures are swinging downwards that the GRACE mass balance will also come into balance as well in the next few years.

  56. cohenite

    bilby’s link is to the West Antarctic which has some warming due to these volcanoes. The ice on the rest of the Antarctic, or 90%, is increasing.

  57. Bruce of Newcastle

    Yay!

    Giant Galilee coal mine gets Canberra nod

    The federal government has approved a giant Queensland coalmine that it says will generate as much as $300 billion for the economy

    The swampies are not happy.

  58. cohenite

    It’s a moot point Rambler; nothing will change bilby’s mind [sic]; but zero tolerance to alarmists and other idiots of the left and filth is a worthwhile standard.

  59. cohenite

    A giant carbon bomb!

    India is still moving with its mining interests in Australia; Palmer will be happy.

  60. Leo G

    You can see the whole story here in figure 6, Leo G,
    And you can see the cold water dispersing.

    You’re a fool BilB. The chart does not show SST near the average edge of sea ice, but shows sea ice concentration anomaly.
    What the sea surface temperature anomaly shows out from the sea ice boundary is a broad ring of surface water surrounding the Antarctic sea ice with no significantly altered temperature anomaly. If what you you claim was the case, you would see a pattern of concentric rings with increasing negative temperature anomalies moving away from the sea ice boundary.
    The bottom line (from your link):

    By thickening, spreading, and stabilizing the polar surface ocean layer (which is comprised of cool, near-freezing water) the increased melt from the ice sheet edges helps sea ice grow around the Antarctic continent.

  61. BilB

    Fair comment, chrisl. Up here in Sydney it was particularly scary as Sydney’s drain on Warragamba just keeps on increasing. The issue for us wasn’t the amount of rainfall, there was plenty of it, it just wasn’t falling in the catchment and in 2007 it got down to just 35%. Goulbourne’s water supply failed and tankernwater supply began.

    Since then the dam has spilled twice from the rather extended la nina. However, only a fool would say that we will never have water supply problems, just because the dams were full several years ago.

  62. manalive

    There are abundant articles that are not ‘consistent with’ the current AGW orthodox, but the IPCC is able to ignore most of them. The retreat from the AGW scare will be a slow one … Don Aitkin.
    What is current AGW orthodoxy as understood by the alarmists?
    On Watts Up With That there was a post about a stunt by some joker who “… will award $30,000 of my own money to anyone that can prove, via the scientific method, that man-made global climate change is not occurring …”.
    What emerged in the article was the apparent offerer’s ignorance, a physics teacher, of the realists’ (for want of a better description) point of view or even the IPCC basic conjecture as declared in its various report summaries.
    BilB obviously doesn’t know what the subject at issue is all about.

  63. Leo G

    It shows both Leo G.

    The chart shows one or the other. In areas where there is any concentration of sea ice, it only shows only sea ice concentration anomaly.
    In no way does it demonstrate any surface flows of meltwaters, nor does it suggest any such flows.
    What it does indicate, is a normal Polar Convergence Zone.

  64. cohenite

    Figure 6. Antarctic sea ice concentration anomaly (deeper colors) and ocean surface temperature anomaly (pastel blue and red) for June 2014. Cool ocean conditions are present around much of the sea ice edge. The average ice edge is shown in black.

  65. Leo G

    BilB obviously doesn’t know what the subject at issue is all about
    There’s an army of BilBs who lack that perspective, who are prepared blindly to accept the deceitful alarmist script., dishonesty th

  66. Leo G

    BilB obviously doesn’t know what the subject at issue is all about

    There’s an army of BilBs who lack that perspective, who are prepared blindly to accept the deceitful alarmist script, dishonesty that often originates with government-funded agencies like NASA.
    Particularly dishonest is the spin used to conceal the real situation in the Arctic.
    Last year for example JPL publicised a study using ICESat and CryoSat-2 data (Study Sheds New Light on Arctic Sea Ice Volume Losses) where the message was the persistent loss of Arctic sea ice by volume and extent over the period fro 1992 and 2010.
    What they failed to highlight was that there has been a 27% increase in the annual turnover of Arctic Sea Ice over that period. The change indicates a massive increase in a negative feedback mechanism, a significant increase in heat loss in the Arctic from ocean to atmosphere.

  67. George Brandis thanks for NOTHING

    Too late BilB man, looks like we’re screwed.

    River in China flows blood red.

    Oh no, it’s the apocalypse.

    Try not to wet your bed.

  68. cohenite

    What they failed to highlight was that there has been a 27% increase in the annual turnover of Arctic Sea Ice over that period. The change indicates a massive increase in a negative feedback mechanism, a significant increase in heat loss in the Arctic from ocean to atmosphere.

    That’s a very good point Leo; Arctic ice loss as a negative feedback.

  69. BilB

    For the record, Wunsch on Wunsch

    Understanding the ocean

    THE article by Graham Lloyd (the Australian newspaper) will likely leave a mis-impression with many of your readers concerning the substance of our paper that will appear in the Journal of Physical Oceanography (“Puzzle of deep ocean cooling”, 25/7).

    We never assert that global warming and warming of the oceans are not occurring — we do find an ocean warming, particularly in the upper regions.

    Contrary to the implications of Lloyd’s article, parts of the deep ocean are warming, parts are cooling, and although the global abyssal average is negative, the value is tiny in a global warming context.

    Those parts of the abyss that are warming are most directly linked to the surface (as pointed out by Andy Hogg from the ANU).

    Scientifically, we need to better understand what is going on everywhere, and that is an issue oceanographers must address over the next few years — a challenging observational problem that our paper is intended to raise.

    Carl Wunsch, Harvard University and Massachusetts, Institute of Technology
    ____________________________________________________________

    Missreading and selectively misunderstanding natural and climate science research is a denialist tool of trade, but it has a very short lived effect as nature steadily ramps up the activity to demonstrate undeniably the Glodal Warming reality.

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