Costello smacks Abbott

Some have argued that leaving Section 18C will make it easier for some people to join “Team Australia” in the fight against terrorism. Really? To suggest that somebody, anybody, would decline to co-operate in the fight against terrorism because they didn’t like the repeal of a section like this in the Racial Discrimination Act is truly frightening.

Does the Government believe there are community leaders whose commitment to their fellow citizens and the values of a civilised society is so weak they will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder if Section 18C is repealed? If that is the case we really do have a problem.

Peter Costello is a bit coy when he writes “Some have argued”.

Who could that someone be?

When it comes to counter-terrorism everyone needs to be part of ‘Team Australia’ and I have to say that the Government’s proposals to change 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act have become a complication in that respect. I don’t want to do anything that puts our national unity at risk at this time and so those proposals are now off the table. This is a call that I have made. It is, if you like, a leadership call that I have made after discussion with the Cabinet today. In the end leadership is about preserving national unity on the essentials and that is why I have taken this decision.

I remember now – that’s Tony Abbott.

I don’t believe that we as a society have a problem where people “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”. To be blunt, the problem is that we have a government that thinks that. At least a government that said it thinks that.

Peter Costello again:

I DON’T know about this “Team Australia” stuff. As far as I am concerned when it comes to stopping terrorism, it is not a matter of “getting on the team”. Stopping terrorism means protecting people — children, relatives, friends and neighbours and, yes, people of different ethnic backgrounds or different religions — from senseless random brutal killing. That’s a real human right: the right not to be murdered in the name of someone else’s political cause or twisted version of religion.

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65 Responses to Costello smacks Abbott

  1. JakartaJaap

    The killing is not ‘senseless and random’. If you think that, you have failed to understand what these turds are about.

  2. C.L.

    Tell us how they’re not senseless and random, grasshopper.

  3. C.L.

    Great smackdown.

    Costello GETS IT.

  4. Chris

    I don’t believe that we as a society have a problem where people “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”. To be blunt, the problem is that we have a government that thinks that. At least a government that said it thinks that.

    As I mentioned in another thread – I don’t think that Abbott believes that dropping the 18C changes was necessary to influence the Muslim community to cooperate on legislation related to terrorism. But he does think he can deflect some of the blame for it on them. And while it hasn’t fooled everyone, it has fooled a lot of people who supported the 18C changes. They’re now blaming Abbott for not being strong enough to stand up to tiny minority Muslim community whereas in reality there were many non Muslim community groups which represented a much larger proportion of the population who have been very vocally opposed to the 18C changes and that’s the real reason they had to drop the legislation.

  5. wreckage

    It needs to be made clear that there are only two sides to this: Team Australia, and losers in small cells and shallow graves.

    If you can’t get behind the ideal of “not murdering people” then you have no place in this country or, as far as I care, on this planet.

  6. wreckage

    That only takes it from stupid to contemptible, Chris.

  7. WhaleHunt Fun

    in the name of someone else’s political cause or twisted version of religion.

    Where is the evidence that the version of the religion is twisted? I am constsantly hearing people speak of a religion of peace. Where is the evidence? Where?

  8. topological

    Look, I have been a libertarian for many years, and up until a month ago I would have agreed that we do not have a problem with people who “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder” and that in fact terror and murder is no issue at all. But now I have seen the rise of ISIS and the barbaric result, seen the support in Lakemba, seen the vitriolic and anti-semitic reactions to Israel in the mainstream press and the public at large, sometimes manifesting itself as violent jew-hating protests in Europe of the kind not seen since the 30s, and I am having second thoughts. I just spent the whole week arguing with a muslim schoolmate on facebook; someone who, like me, went to a posh selective private school, has tertiary education and a stable, well-paid job and a wife, someone who seems pretty reasonable at face value yet, however, is a vigorous supporter of ISIS and seems to see it as the duty of the entire muslim world to carry out jihad and purge the middle east of infidels. He has zero sympathy for Christians or Jews, despite having grown up around us, and cant comprehend why we would not want to be dhimmis, which he considers a wonderful and fair concept. I think that the religion lies latent in the back of the minds of many muslims and for many years can be ignored, but ISIS and the dream of a caliphate has awoken it and taken it to the fore, and I really think that Bolt et al may have been right all along and a serious clash of civilisations is in the works. Immediately after 911 I thought the threat was overexaggerated, but I no longer can deny it. I am still an enthusiastic supporter of repealing 18C, since free speech seemed to work without government intervention in getting Mike Carlton removed, and still opposed to the collection of metadata, but something well and truly needs to be done. Libertarians cant just keep ignoring this issue, whilst all the while a genocide is going on, and millenia old religions minorities like the Christians or Yazidis in the middle east are being wiped out. Its all well and good to quote Benjamin Franklin but the shit has hit the fan and there is a frickin genocide happening. Strong action is needed both from western militaries and, sadly, western intelligence services. If you dont believe me then I would suggest that you to track down any observant muslim and have a candid conversation with him, what he says might well scare the shit out of you like it did me.

  9. Disillusioned

    Given the estimate of 1.2 billion Muslims and being generous and suggesting that if only 5% are radical that leaves 6 million potential terrorists. I have seen estimates from the US that put the figure at 15% to 25%. If those figures are to be believed then the west is going to be in a world of hurt very shortly.
    Why do we allow radical groups to protest in support of their causes to be violent and/or be abusive to the general population? This applies not only to Muslims but also to unions, the socialist left, uni students and numerous others. This is where society becomes inured to violence by allowing these people to become exempt from justice. It just snowballs from there. Unless all protestors are brought back to the reality that yes you can protest but you will be held to a defined standard and will face consequences for not doing so then democracy and justice become a fallacy.

  10. Disillusioned

    Topological, couldn’t agree more. They will never assimilate to our way of life but demand we assimilate to theirs.

  11. Gab

    a muslim schoolmate on facebook; someone who, like me, went to a posh selective private school, has tertiary education and a stable, well-paid job and a wife, someone who seems pretty reasonable at face value yet, however, is a vigorous supporter of ISIS and seems to see it as the duty of the entire muslim world to carry out jihad and purge the middle east of infidels. He has zero sympathy for Christians or Jews, despite having grown up around us, and cant comprehend why we would not want to be dhimmis, which he considers a wonderful and fair concept. I think that the religion lies latent in the back of the minds of many muslims and for many years can be ignored, but ISIS and the dream of a caliphate has awoken it and taken it to the fore, and I really think that Bolt et al may have been right all along and a serious clash of civilisations is in the works

    If it came down to a war between Australia and Islam, Muslims in this country would not be fighting for Australia. Their allegiance is the their religion first and last. Such is the indoctrination of islam, and when push comes to shove we are merely infidels. I wish I was wrong.

  12. Perhaps we could get a gross of these and hand them out to the LNP before caucus and two for cabinet meetings.

  13. Matthew

    Paragraphs, people, please.

  14. topological

    Sorry Matthew. I wrote my post it in a rush without bothering to format it correctly. I agree it looks terrible and barely readable without paragraphs.

    I agree with you Disillusioned and think that we have a serious problem. The liberal traditions we have in the anglosphere, where we value free speech, political protests and representative democracy were made with the religious and cultural traditions of 19th century europe in mind. The population and intelligentsia were arguing over ideologies like Catholicism vs. Protestantism, early socialism vs. capitalism, nationalism or universal humanism. These are debates which make the society stronger, and all of them have value.

    What is not so clear to me how totalitarian philosophies fit into our liberal tradition. How much space should we give them? Some seductive totalitarian philosophies like Nazism or Communism or Islamism can be very ferociously viral, take over the minds of their adherents and spread like wildfire. Islam is arguably the most aggressive of all of these. Its hard to see how someone who prays five times a day could become a moderate with a respect for liberal values; they just dont have time and space left in their head for it. Even after multiple generations of living in the west they do not become any less radical.

    You can’t really argue with those who have fallen for these philosophies, so “more free speech” does not really do much. I dont know what the answer is, and I would want us to preserve liberal democracy, but I think that at a minimum we need a beefed up military and intelligence service.

  15. fhb

    topological – great post, wish I could put something together in a rush as eloquently as you have done here. Totally agree with every thing you felt.

    Also this comment from Gab is on the spot:

    If it came down to a war between Australia and Islam, Muslims in this country would not be fighting for Australia. Their allegiance is the their religion first and last. Such is the indoctrination of islam, and when push comes to shove we are merely infidels. I wish I was wrong.

  16. Mullah Muhammad

    Abbott’s a fool if he thinks his spineless back down from reforming 18C will stop my loyal followers from launching our devastating stink bomb attacks on Westfield shopping centres.

  17. Makka

    “I just spent the whole week arguing with a muslim schoolmate on facebook; someone who, like me, went to a posh selective private school, has tertiary education and a stable, well-paid job and a wife, someone who seems pretty reasonable at face value..”

    This is the nub of it. EVERY moslem is a radical. I mean it, EVERY one of them. Their cult idolises those who kill and murder infidels. Their cult actively encourages jihad, which is just another name for murder. EVERY moslem will support their own in these endeavours and if that means many Jews and Christians are to die then their cult protects them from any retribution. The civilised West is at war as every bit as real as the old Cold War. Then we knew the enemy however now the Leftscum and their media lackey’s are providing cover for this despicable religion. Abbott seems to have caved in to the slime , wanting yet again to be loved. Yes, he is the consummate appeaser , selling out our values (freedom of speech) so the Left can lower the heat on him. Which they will never do.

  18. Makka

    “If it came down to a war between Australia and Islam, Muslims in this country would not be fighting for Australia.”

    The only loyalty moslems have is to Islam.There no loyalty whatsoever to the nation that nurtures and protects them. This is fundamental and also a valid reason why we should have no guilt is sending them back. There is no loyalty whatsoever.

  19. A Lurker

    Multiculturalism does not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.
    Dual citizenships do not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.
    SBS does not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.
    18C does not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.
    Ethnic suburbs do not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.
    Possessing a Race Discrimination Commissioner at the HRC does not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.

    The problems we are facing now, and into the future are because of all of the above. Just one element out of the six may not be an issue, but in combination you create an environment of people coming to Australia not to become Australian, but rather to recreate their old culture, old environment, old country on new soil – and the people also bring their old hatred, old conflicts, old hang-ups – and cultural norms that really don’t fit or work with their new country; and because their cultural or religious norms do not fit and because they bring old hatreds here, they want protection, to have special laws, to be more equal than all other ‘animals’, and because these people become voting blocs in certain suburbs, they are pandered to by politicians.

    The real test of whether or not these people are Australian, or simply something-else who happens to live on Australian soil, is whether or not they contribute back to Australia in meaningful ways – and I’m not simply talking about working and paying tax – but do they actually participate in our armed forces, and do they volunteer with benevolent community organisations like the Lions, Rotary, SES, Rural Fire Brigade, Lifesavers etc. Do they participate in the wider Australian culture – do they give more, or do they take more.

    If they end up taking more than they give, or not give at all, then yes, we have a problem, and it would be naïve to expect these people who only ‘take’ to somehow become part of ‘Team Australia’ with the rest of us.

  20. Blogstrop

    Didn’t Costello once say that for those people who are enthusiastic about Sharia,mthere are countries they can emigrate to which have it?

  21. Roger

    To suggest that somebody, anybody, would decline to co-operate in the fight against terrorism because they didn’t like the repeal of a section like this in the Racial Discrimination Act is truly frightening.

    Welcome to Australia 2014, Peter.

  22. Badjack

    I could could put up with that smirk he (Costello) passes off as a smile if he were to make a comeback. For God’s and our sake ‘just do it’.

  23. Roger

    Multiculturalism does not engender a cohesive, integrated, ‘Australia-first’ society.

    I’ve mentioned American political scientist Robert Putnam’s research on another thread, Lurker.
    C. 2007 he published a study which didn’t just suggest but showed that multiculturalism dissipates trust and dissolves the cohesiveness of a society. He didn’t set out to show that, that’s what his research of the data he collected indicated. Note the problem was not ethnic diversity as such but the active promotion of cultural diversity which saw min0rity cultures refusing to adopt the values of the mainstream culture. Hello.

  24. Grey ghost who walks

    Not being too perceptive, but Abbott’s long history of his Jesuit connection, would indicate to me that he would turn the other cheek faster than a rabbit would take for a root.

  25. Tel

    topological:</b. you have fairly identified a problem, but how is blocking free speech going to help solve this problem? Preventing people from speaking out seems to me like it would have the opposite effect.

    I'm not personally enthused about joining "Team Totalitarian", I'll stand up for a principle, and the most fundamental principle I can think of is that the leadership of a nation should live by the same rules they impose on others. If Abbott is content to say one thing and do something else when it suits him, then by all means that's a message for all Australians to do likewise… hardly the makings of good teamwork.

  26. and I really think that Bolt et al may have been right all along and a serious clash of civilisations is in the works.

    It took you until a month ago? Wow, well at least you’re on board now. Better late than never.

    The truly disturbing thing is that even upon the advent of crucifixions and beheadings, the lefty crowd still see the problem as how this may reflect upon Muslims in general. Beheadings? Nothing to see here. Let’s move straight to negative perceptions.

    The problem is, our first world problems are now only one step away from being third world problems.

  27. Didn’t Costello once say that for those people who are enthusiastic about Sharia,mthere are countries they can emigrate to which have it?

    But those countries don’t have Centrelink.

  28. dianeh

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

    Ronald Reagan

  29. sabrina

    If it came down to a war between Australia and Islam, Muslims in this country would not be fighting for Australia. Their allegiance is the their religion first and last. Such is the indoctrination of islam, and when push comes to shove we are merely infidels. I wish I was wrong.

    So true, you are not wrong.

  30. Mick of Brisbane

    I suspect Abbotts words were a red herring. Frankly, it’s hypocritical to repeal 18c to fight for freedom while at the same time implement legislation to record the online activities of your citzenry.

  31. Paragraphs, people, please.

    And commas. Lots, and lots, of commas. :)

  32. Duncan

    This is a call that I have made. It is, if you like, a leadership call that I have made after discussion with the Cabinet today. In the end leadership is about preserving national unity on the essentials and that is why I have taken this decision.

    That is a leadership call by a leader who lacks a pair of you-know-what; but even more troubling, one who lacks discernment. He will take on his cabinet who are beholden to him for their jobs, but not the issue that is a real threat to us personally, never mind our way of life.

  33. How much space should we give them?

    The no problem with the existing laws. All they need is enforcement. Until intolerance of law breaking is shown, contempt for it will rise, you can bet your arse on it.

    And yes, i did get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. I blame sobriety for that.

  34. JohnA

    Chris #1413460, posted on August 12, 2014 at 12:16 am

    They’re now blaming Abbott for not being strong enough to stand up to tiny minority Muslim community whereas in reality there were many non Muslim community groups which represented a much larger proportion of the population who have been very vocally opposed to the 18C changes and that’s the real reason they had to drop the legislation.

    Quite so, Chris.

    And the root cause is the multi-cultural policies which were adopted back in the 80s and 90s, based on the idea that every culture was of equal value, and that we had to demonstrate tolerance for whoever came to these shores – ignoring the fact that by coming, they had expressed a preference for Australian culture over their previous culture, ie. they did not consider all cultures to be of equal value.

    This tolerance factor is driven by the fundamental concept of the absolute equality of every person. Gee, thanks humanism, the French Revolution and Communism-Marxism – we see what manner of totalitarianism they have given us.

    Now, we are wide open to an invasive, dominating (totalitarian) culture of death and, since there cannot be any neutral ground in such a clash of cultures, we have to push back with something stronger, or we will be pushed into the sea.

    It’s either Islam with its culture of death, or a more robust Christianity the likes of which died in the late nineteenth century, but could be resurrected (of course!). The kind of Christianity which dominated (yes) other cultures to the extent of abolishing slavery, suttee and foot-binding, established hospitals and orphanages, limited the autocratic power of the crown and invented constitutional government and gave people the idea of human rights within a framework of responsibilities. Certainly not the pusillanimous namby-pamby so-called Christianity we see now.

    (Sigh – gotta go to work, never enough time to develop the argument properly).

  35. Mullah Muhammad

    Badjack
    #1413559, posted on August 12, 2014 at 6:33 am

    I could could put up with that smirk he (Costello) passes off as a smile if he were to make a comeback. For God’s and our sake ‘just do it’.

    Put up with that smirk? I love the smirk. It shows his contempt for those beneath him, which is all of the Labor party and the Greens. It annoys the crap out of them.

  36. topological

    Tel, mate, I said that I support repealing 18C. My issue is not with that, its with attitude libertarians take the national security and foreign policy. Sinclair seems to be doing his best ostrich impersonation when he writes:
    “I don’t believe that we as a society have a problem where people “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”. To be blunt, the problem is that we have a government that thinks that. At least a government that said it thinks that.”

    But we clearly do have such a problem, and sticking your head in the sand wont make ISIS dissappear and it wont make the Muslim population renounce jihad and stop them from sheltering the extremists among the “moderates”. It wont stop the violent anti-Israel protests all over the world. Worst of all, it wont end the genocide happening right now. Christianity is on the brink of dissapearing from the Middle East for the first time in two millenia. You cant reverse that, once they are gone they are gone forever. It also wont stop Russia from taking a piece of every neighbour. There is a war going on, and I am not so sure that our civilisation is on the winning side any more. Its got to the point where I would actually prefer Hillary over Rand Paul, despite the fact that I loath most of what she represents, because I dont think the West can take another 4 years of this appeasment approach.

    We have to start fighting back and the libertarian attitude of non-interventionism doesnt work. Obama has basically proven this. Nature abhors a vacuum. They are not fighting us because they have been “radicalised” by our foreign interventions, they are fighting us because they want power and a passive foreign policy has given them an opportunity. Likewise, the libertarian belief in open borders is insane. I support a healthy immigration policy, but only from countries with a compatible culture. Your claim that if Abbott sets a good example then the muslim population will imitate him is obviously out of touch. The only example devout Muslims follow is Mohammad, and he was not particularly peaceful or well-behaved. I hate the NSA stuff, but we still need a strong ASIO and people on the ground to infiltrate these communities and identify terrorists, so I think Abbott was right to pump $600 million into it.

  37. Amused

    Your maths is way off, Disillusioned. 5% of 1.2 billion is 60 million. 15% is 180 million and 20% is 240 million.

    Hell, even if you work on the much stated figure of 1% of them being rotten to the core, that’s 12 million Osama bin Laden’s ready to rock.

  38. outsider

    It’s easy to check with those from the faith you know; just ask: do you believe in sharia? Huge proportions do…I’d like to see all would-be immigrants sign a document clarifying that they must never place their legitimate religious beliefs above the laws of the land, on the understanding they will be deported – never to return – should they transgress. Fundamentalist Islam is a road map for societal conquest, to take what is not yours.

    Do the same for the hate preachers in the mosques and schools, the muslim opinion leaders in our society. It is very reasonable to ask that they behave as does every other Australian. A lot of it started because the childlike anti-civilisation left thought it a good thing that migrants retain their ‘culture’ hence multiculturalism, whereas the Americans emphasised becoming an US citizen. So, decades ago was when the rot started.

    “Hilaly arrived in Australia in 1982 on a tourist visa from Lebanon. Although the visa was temporary, it was routinely reissued until 1988 when then Minister for Immigration Chris Hurford attempted to have Hilaly deported for being against “Australian values”.[7] The Islamic community showed strong support for Hilaly to remain in Australia,[8] and Hilaly was eventually granted permanent residence in 1990 by Hurford’s successor Gerry Hand.”

  39. Denise

    Tel
    #1413574, posted on August 12, 2014 at 7:17 am

    topological:</b. you have fairly identified a problem, but how is blocking free speech going to help solve this problem? Preventing people from speaking out seems to me like it would have the opposite effect.

    I'm not personally enthused about joining "Team Totalitarian", I'll stand up for a principle, and the most fundamental principle I can think of is that the leadership of a nation should live by the same rules they impose on others. If Abbott is content to say one thing and do something else when it suits him, then by all means that’s a message for all Australians to do likewise… hardly the makings of good teamwork.

    +1

    Tony Abbott has morphed into that first Green, Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882)
    QUOTATION: A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.

    So what was the catalyst? Someone got photos of him punching a wall with Jesuit ferocity? I am so disappointed. But treachery has always been the weak link of the Anglosphere.

    Scott Morrison seems to be the only MP who does what he says and says what he will do. Morrison for PM! He doesn’t have any of that groveling guilt either.

  40. rickw

    Look, I have been a libertarian for many years, and up until a month ago I would have agreed that we do not have a problem with people who “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder” and that in fact terror and murder is no issue at all.

    Topological, well done, you made it!

    There is nothing new in what we are seeing. The WWI Diggers in the ME wrote long and loud about the barbaric nature of the inhabitants of the ME / the proponents of Islam, they also put their money where there mouth was, they shot their horses rather than leave them in the hands of the inhabitants of the ME when they returned to Australia. That says something, a horse that has carried you to war, been your mate and the best option is for you to take it to a quite place, spend one last moment with it, then shoot it.

    I live in one of Australia’s “Islamic Areas” I have also spent a reasonable amount of time in the ME, including some of the war zones. The whole problem with understanding the issue is peoples inclination to project their Western Judo Christian values onto Muslims. Now you might sit on a fine rug with an Afghan, he will make you lovely sweet tea and engage you in charming conversation, but this same fine individual in a heart beat will kill his sister if she brings dishonor, and you to as an infidel for that matter!

    The Old Testament uses a term “stiff necked people”, that precisely describes the followers of Islam, they have a capacity to be hard, callous and barbaric and at the same time they will rejoice in it. Do not underestimate their capacity to do what we would call “evil” but what they would call “righteous and good”. A Muslim father rejoicing in his son holding a severed head is not new, it is just new to us.

  41. jupes

    I don’t believe that we as a society have a problem where people “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”.

    You don’t believe there are people in our society who “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”? Or if there are, then you don’t believe they are a problem? Really Sinc?

    Wow.

  42. .

    topological
    #1413480, posted on August 12, 2014 at 12:54 am

    Blah blah blah. How does giving up my freedom stop ISIS? I’m rather bemused by your “efforts”.

    We can maintain our freedoms and deal with terrorism firmly at the same time.

  43. .

    But we clearly do have such a problem, and sticking your head in the sand wont make ISIS dissappear and it wont make the Muslim population renounce jihad and stop them from sheltering the extremists among the “moderates”.

    Why are conflating data retention, police powers etc with a lack of desire for military intervention?

    Maybe you spend too much time on the internet and watching TV. Australian libertarians are not like American ones who are wholly too paleoconservative when it comes to foreign and military affairs.

  44. egg_

    I don’t believe that we as a society have a problem where people “will not co-operate in preventing terror and murder”. To be blunt, the problem is that we have a government that thinks that. At least a government that said it thinks that.

    Credlin spin?

  45. incoherent rambler

    Has P.M. Peda Cretin responded via her talking puppet?

  46. JamesK

    Apart from the fact he’s correct whilst wonderfully and drily succinct, Costello really is extraordinarily politically talented.

    That’s a powerful kick to Abbott’s tenders.

  47. M Ryutin

    Libertarians turn away their faces and bid their ears a little while be deaf.

    At last some reality comes to the fore on the Islamist menace and anti-terrorism laws/actions. As I said last night, the 100 year war started 20 years ago for Islamists and we have been awake to the need for 13 years so far, since 911.

    Islamist attitudes are as many posters are saying and it will take years (and, yes, actions of the State) to start and make the fight back. Maybe attitudes won’t change of those already here and adult in this country and it will take 20 years of enforced education to get it across to children that women are not chattels, that Muslim teaching is not worth anything at all whenever it clashes with our law – the obvious corollary being that disagreement removes the rights of citizenship and even residence here. The head-holding children of the psychotic Sharrouf must be excluded from this country as of right now. The risk of such a warped legatee (mental illness and sadism) growing up here can’t be taken.

    When I said last night that Asian Muslim leaders realised that fighting the ideological battle with these ratbags Islamists was vital (and the predecessor to SBY stated that openly), they were stating the obvious. Public criticism of actions merely puts the thoughts and ideology underground and open intellectual battle and confrontation over them has to be on the agenda. Unless and until this is undertaken the rest will be tokenism.

  48. David

    rabbit would take for a root

    Spook you have actually timed such an event?

    :-)

  49. Tintarella di Luna

    Paragraphs, people, please.

    And commas. Lots, and lots, of commas.

    Yes Commas for Clarity

  50. egg_

    Paragraphs, people, please.

    Skip over mega-paragraphs (hint – just read the first sentence).
    Suggestion – if a blog commenter needs to write loads of paragraphs – get your own blog!

  51. .

    When I said last night that Asian Muslim leaders realised that fighting the ideological battle with these ratbags Islamists was vital (and the predecessor to SBY stated that openly), they were stating the obvious. Public criticism of actions merely puts the thoughts and ideology underground and open intellectual battle and confrontation over them has to be on the agenda. Unless and until this is undertaken the rest will be tokenism.

    Which is why I say we ought to back the Indonesian Government etc. We should ally with them and the Philippines to fight terrorism and destroy training camps and HQs etc near us.

  52. Luzu

    Why the moaning about dual citizenship? I am a dual citizen of Australia and NZ. Never have I felt a preference for NZ over Australia, otherwise I’d be there. But then again, I feel quite at home in a larger, warmer version of NZ, despite slurs cast my way about sex with sheep and my (now gone) inability to say ‘fish and chips’ correctly.
    I dare say many English feel the same way, as do Canadians and Americans. We have all been brought up with “When in Rome…”
    Truly, we have to implement a discriminatory immigration and citizenship policy. But how many people here are even comfortable with the idea of treating people differently based on their ethnic/cultural background?
    Until non-discrimination is removed as the highest organising principle of our society, nothing can or will be done. I don’t expect such a move to come from libertarians.

  53. .

    So we should deport Muslims too?

  54. stackja

    Peter Costello left the parliamentary scene. Peter Costello never explained why.
    Peter Costello does not have the responsibilities he once had.
    TA has to get most people to agree with him.
    In 1939 most Australians were still getting used to being at war.
    Today the MSM/ALP and critics of every TA move are not helping in this new war.

  55. Which is why I say we ought to back the Indonesian Government etc. We should ally with them and the Philippines to fight terrorism and destroy training camps and HQs etc near us.

    Same with the Yanks bombing ISIS. Yes, they could do more, but punishing the most extreme at every opportunity is really a no-brainer. Regardless of what people think of islamic moderates, fighting every muslim on the planet is not an option. Divide and conquer. Churchill knew that drawing the borders in the wrong places would keep them at each other’s throats instead of at ours. Why do people insist on re-inventing the wheel? Punish the extreme, reward the moderate, and keep doing it. Bomb the ISIS fuckers into oblivion – show them their caliphate is unrealistic. Show them that their ambitions are too high, and that they can only be big small in small ponds.

  56. Driftforge

    But how many people here are even comfortable with the idea of treating people differently based on their ethnic/cultural background?

    It’s not PC, but it should be done. The trick, in immigration as in everyday life, is to manage the difference between the individual and their heritage. There should be no objection to advantaging those with a shared heritage in our migration schemes; those with deeply different heritage should require a substantially greater skill set to merit consideration, or be required to show an individual heritage different from the norm.

    Citizenship is another step further. Japan probably has it close to right (IIRC) in that one must have married into the parent culture for two generations to gain citizenship. Here, unless heritage is already shared, that would be a reasonable measure as well.

  57. Big *fish*, dang it. “big small” makes about as much sense as a “Junior Whopper”.

  58. HRT

    rickw. In your post of 12Aug at 0838 you mentioned the opinions of Islam by given by our WWI diggers.

    Following are some comments made over the last 100 years or so by military men.

    “No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.” Winston Churchill – The River Wars. 1899

    “I could not help thinking if they had a religion less dogmatic, less cruel, less intolerant, less murderous and put their intensity of mind and life to other things, they might become quite a force in the world instead of a living clog from the days before Moses.” Ion Idriess – The Desert Column. (Idriess was a member of the Australian Light Horse. He has his chronology wrong but his sentiments are clear). WWI

    “One cannot but ponder the question: What if the Arabs had been Christians? To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Mohammed and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing.” General George Patton – War as I Knew It. WWII

    “Meanwhile, a real threat to the long-term existence of our nation, our culture, our economy, our beliefs and every civilised achievement since the Enlightenment has appeared …….” Major General Jim Molan ADF (Ret) who was Chief of Operations in Iraq.

  59. rickw

    Thanks HRT !!

    The threat posed by Islam is not something that has suddenly materialized, it has existed, well, since Mohammed first walked the desert. This of course begs the question as to what on earth our Politicians have been doing and thinking and why?

    Dot:

    So we should deport Muslims too?

    Yes, this is in fact the most humanitarian option available. It prevents an armed conflict on Australian soil, preserving both the lives of both Muslims (not that they really care) and Australians.

    We need an immediate policy of De-Islamification of Australia. This is the sort of “disproportionate” response that they would struggle to deal with.

  60. Stan

    If it came down to a war between Australia and Islam, Muslims in this country would not be fighting for Australia. Their allegiance is the their religion first and last. Such is the indoctrination of islam, and when push comes to shove we are merely infidels. I wish I was wrong.

    This. Would it be so difficult to immediately suspend all immigration of Middle Eastern Muslims, at least while we reassess?

  61. struth

    I think what was said regards the silent muslim majority being irrelevant is a good point to argue with but not exactly correct.
    As the old saying goes. ………silence is consent.
    Just who really stopped the KKK?
    They said tbey were fighting for my race.
    Did Muslims stop them?
    Did negros stop tbem?
    Did Asians?

    Or indeed was it white people themselves who applied the pressure to stop the violence said to be done in their name?

  62. I am the Walrus, Koo Koo K'choo

    Would it be so difficult to immediately suspend all immigration of Middle Eastern Muslims, at least while we reassess?

    Senator Bob Day of Family First has called for just this. He joined FF after the Libs denied him a chance at entering parliament. And isn’t he making them pay for their decision!

    With this call, and with his support for repealing 18C and promoting freedom of speech, I think he is making a v. shrewd and effective play for the Liberals’ base. I sincerely hope it works – I myself am impressed.

    And he’s outclassing David Leyjonhelm and the LDP in the battle to win votes from the LNP.

    Good on you Bob.

  63. struth

    Yep , more impressed with Bob Day every day.

  64. Wozzup

    The following is written more in sorrow than in any other emotion as I now categorize myself as a centre right conservative who should be enthusiastic about this government.

    We need someone of Costello’s ability and drive. This government truly is piss-weak. On whatever criteria you might like to apply it is inept, lacking in vision, weak and irresolute. It simply does not seem to know what its agenda is. And on the few occasion it does, its ability to prepare the ground and then sell the agenda is so lacking that its a joke.

    Do we really once more need to have the spectacle of this government getting rolled, particularly this time on critical security measures. The Left, personified by Short arsen does not give a flying fluff about this country and will gladly kill off the measures no matter how important if it means one extra Muslim vote for his labor mates. After all, Australian lives are a small price to pay for seats in the House. And all the time, that bizarre obese hippo Palmer seems intent on causing as much grief as he can to his old party. So once more there is a chance that another piece of legislation will fall in a hole.

    How does Abbott deal with it. He talks about “team Australia”. Jesus, it makes my skin crawl that he even uses the term “team Australia”. Is he really that hopeless. Sadly the answer seems to be yes he it. At a time in our history when more than ever this country needs strong visionary, resolute government this mob seem to only be able to hide under a table and whimper. Mostly it seems due to their fearless – sorry, fearful, leader.

    Yes they have a hostile and populist senate. Then do what a real leader does – take it to the people. Go above their head and appeal to the people of Australia. Turn up the heat on the nay sayers and show them up for the scoundrels they are. But instead they whine and moan and complain that no one understands them.

    Which is kinda true. I sure as hell don’t.

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