Thursday Forum: August 14, 2014

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664 Responses to Thursday Forum: August 14, 2014

  1. Tel

    Fuel going up by 40c a tank has been the lead story on ABC news website ALL FUCKING DAY!

    Don’t worry, they will spend a tiny fraction of it on roads.

  2. blogstrop

    Note to self: check where the page turn’s due (every 250) or be consigned to the back pages in perpetuity.

  3. blogstrop

    40c a tank! We’ll all be rooned.

  4. Grigory M

    JOE Hockey has comprehensively apologised for his “obviously insensitive” comments about poorer Australians, insisting he bears no “evil intent” toward the disadvantaged.

    Joe is a dope who should never be given the opportunity to speak publicly, let alone be Australia’s Treasurer. He’s like Fat Moe from Once Upon a Time in America.

  5. .

    Perpetual Motion
    #1417792, posted on August 15, 2014 at 9:26 am
    Now the $50,000 is a “nominal figure”, whatever that means.

    If you could read the material that you quoted you might note that the actual figure would get regularly reviewed and increase and decrease from time to time. Then you would know what “nominal figure” means. Don’t get hung up on the exact amount, think about the process.

    Yes. Administered by bureaucrats in the newly created Department of Cheap Migration. What could go wrong?

    Do you ever look up from your libertarian textbooks and consider the real world?

    PM asserts his opinion is “the real world”.

    Setting a price so the market clears is easier than making judgments about the value of skills someone has.

  6. Rudiau

    Note to self: check where the page turn’s due (every 250) or be consigned to the back pages in perpetuity.

    Thanks. :)
    Are We Still A Member Of This Thing?
    Anyone who says Israel has right to exist – is considered “our enemies”.
    –William Schabas

    Tarek Fatah ਤਾਰਿਕ @TarekFatah
    Meet the ‘neutral’ UN Human Rights referee who will investigate Israel’s ‘crimes’. http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2014/08/12/the-un-human-rights-farce-gets-worse-william-schabas-israel/#.U-02x4sL_vY.twitter … @Commentary
    8:25 AM – 15 Aug 2014

    The UN Human Rights Farce Gets Worse

    h/t SDA

  7. .

    Perpetual Motion
    #1417544, posted on August 15, 2014 at 12:34 am
    You save 25k per week?

    About that.

    You’re making stuff up again. What terrorists have been funded by the House of Saud in Australia? If that’s the case, this is has nothing to do with immigration, and we have a cause for war with the Saudis.

    Correct. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi. Osama Bin Laden was Saudi. Saudi Arabia funds all the Sunni fundamentalists world-wide. They probably fund ISIS. The only reason we haven’t declared war on the fuckers is because they have lots of oil. As America becomes less dependent on their oil, I hope to see them finally declare war on the real enemy.

    Iraq has more oil, the US potentially has more.

    Your reasoning boils down to “it’s all about the oil”.

    You didn’t answer the question either.

    You believe in paranoia, not reality, yet tell everyone to get into the real world.

  8. .

    Tel
    #1417756, posted on August 15, 2014 at 8:31 am
    Exactly. Under OSB, that $50,000 is flushed.

    Government police action raises costs for criminals but never makes crime go away. Thus, offering people an alternative to crime is a good move because it reduces the pressure on police. Same applies to border defense and all governement enforcement activity. Under OSB the $50k is just going to move to a higher value.

    This is still an economics site? Just checking…

    Exactly. You could combine the policies if you wanted to, if OSB actually creates savings, rather than Fisk’s assertions.

  9. .

    That’s right. The apex of open borders was during a period of:

    -white supremacy enshrined in law
    -a limited franchise based on white male suffrage only
    -an expanding frontier displacing indigenous people
    -slavery

    Actually Fisk, some history:

    Open borders existed until white supremacy was enshrined in law. Aborigines had more rights then until the 1967 referendum. The franchise was granted to women, towards the end of this period when exchange of ideas and culture flourished.

  10. .

    C.L. and DB assert the church never sanctioned laws on miscegenation.

    Did France have a divinely appointed monarch, crowned by the Pope, with strong royal control of the French clergy and at times, the Papacy and also a weak Parliament?

    The idea this didn’t need reform in itself is myopic to say the least.

  11. Did France have a divinely appointed monarch, crowned by the Pope, with strong royal control of the French clergy and at times, the Papacy and also a weak Parliament?

    Mmmm, I think Napoleon was the only French monarch crowned by the Pope, and that was only because he kidnapped him first.

    That is, if you don’t count Pepin and Charlemagne. I think.

  12. tomix

    Slayer of Memes at 2:33 pm

    CLIVE Palmer may have breached electoral laws because of party rules which give him indisputable power over preselection decisions.

    Former Palmer United Party state leader Alex Douglas is considering lodging a complaint with the Electoral Commission Queensland, pending legal advice.

    A The Australian article this week mentioned that Alex Douglas is Bob Katter’s nephew.

  13. Also the French Catholic Church suffered for centuries from Gallicanism; eg. it effectively functioned as a State church, under the thumb of the monarch.

    This isn’t the Catholic idea at all, and it damaged the Church there for good.

    Also ruined the economy. You should read Victory of Reason, Dotty. Damn fine.

    And if that’s too much, then at least read a good review of it.

  14. Notafan

    It was the 70s when the prizemoney wasn’t as substantial, new cars were proportionally more expensive , and yes they bought quite a few.

  15. Hendrix

    The militarisation of the police in America is really something. From Doraville, Georgia. Population 8,500.

    http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/13/how-a-suburban-swat-team-sees-itself

  16. C.L.

    Did France have a divinely appointed monarch, crowned by the Pope …

    Prince Charles will be crowned by the ‘Archbishop’ of Canterbury.

    This has nothing to do with mixed race marriages and their imaginary Catholic unlawfulness.

  17. JC

    The only reason we haven’t declared war on the fuckers is because they have lots of oil. As America becomes less dependent on their oil,/……

    Lol. This is conspiracy junk based on crap. The US hardly imports any oil from the Mid East and is quickly becoming independent. It imports the vast bulk of its oil from Mexico,Venezuela and Canada.

    Your acting like a gerbil warmer. Gerbil warmers live in fear there will be sea water swirling around under their bed in the morning when they wake up (see stepford). You think there are mid East terrorists underneath.

  18. JC

    In the immortal words of John Humphreys… Don’t be scared.

  19. JC

    The militarisation of the police in America is really something. From Doraville, Georgia. Population 8,500.

    Rand Paul is onto it. I really like him, but I’m worried about his foreign policy stands.

    http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

  20. JC

    The toilet is really kicking arse in Europe

    UK Q2 GDP Unadvised at 0.8% | YoY revised up to 3.2% from 3.1% #UK #GBPUSD

  21. Hendrix

    I think it’s great that Joe Hockey has fucked up any chance of ever becoming Prime Minister or leader of the liberal party. The idiot’s sole achievement is 15 minutes of popularity on that stupid sunrise show 10 years ago, that helped saddle the nation with Kevin Rudd.

  22. Infidel Tiger

    Sorry if anyone’s already commented with this…

    It’s not a good idea to go to Syria and stand with the, er, fighters if you are a young woman.

    The best they can hope for is that they are now comfort women for a 10,000 strong jihadi army. That’s the very best.

    Reality can be an awful thing.

  23. Notafan

    I can’t see a parallel between the myth of man made global warning and the reality that Australia has actually convicted 22 wannabe domestic terrorists, exported 150 international terrorists and apparently houses 1350 wannabe international terrorists, if the Iman is to be believed.

  24. Rudiau

    I think it’s great that Joe Hockey has fucked up

    Especially after this comment.

  25. JC

    @MikeCarlton01 Hey Mike, Guardian? I’m not betting the big bucks Morrie Schwartz is ringing the phone hot with a job offer for a column.

  26. incoherent rambler

    IS supposedly has an jihadist army of 10,000 in the ME. Not a huge number.
    The upside is that if they would just congregate together at the top of one hill, one B52 …

  27. Bill Whittle 2

    This one is simply extraordinary. It reduced me to tears

  28. Gab

    Sorry if anyone’s already commented with this… It’s not a good idea to go to Syria and stand with the, er, fighters if you are a young woman.

    They certainly do not deserve the ordeal they are going through now and I cannot and do not want to imagine their fate.

    They were warned not to go, sensible advice and urgings especially with what the world has seen in the past as to how women, especially foreign women, are treated during conflicts in the Middle East. Now people will have to attempt to find them and rescue them and one wonders how many lives will be lost in the rescue attempt. The anguish that has descended on the girls’ families in unimaginable. The girls may have good hearts but little in the way of brains. Selfish, selfish people who should have known better. God help them.

  29. JC

    IS supposedly has an jihadist army of 10,000 in the ME. Not a huge number.
    The upside is that if they would just congregate together at the top of one hill, one B52 …

    You can fight an urban based war, but you can’t take territory in the desert without airpower. ISIS are basically fucked. Mass troops without air superiority and you’re destroyed.

    I’m calling it early. They’re gonsksy.

  30. Delta A

    Well said, Gab at 6.47pm.

    Unfortunately, many young people, having been the centre of their, and their parents, universes since birth cannot believe that not everyone simply adores their cute little selves and might, in fact wish evil upon them.

  31. MsDolittle

    As America becomes less dependent on their oil

    Peak oil always seems to be 50 years hence, just keep moving it as they discover more of the lovely stuff.

  32. Empire

    JC – you’re assuming the US will seize the day.

    I’m not backing Baz to issue the order.

  33. Peter from SA

    @MikeCarlton01 Hey Mike, Guardian? I’m not betting the big bucks Morrie Schwartz is ringing the phone hot with a job offer for a column.

    JC go easy on the guy. He resigned in the sure knowledge he’d be bombarded with job offers. He probably thought he’d get an entire page in the UK Guardian. However, the actual silence may have been a little challenging for his ego just now. I predict more hospital time for “pneumonia” and other, generally non-specific, ailments.

  34. Baldrick

    I’m calling it early. They’re gonsksy.

    Carpet bomb the fu@kers.

  35. Mater

    This one is simply extraordinary. It reduced me to tears

    Thanks Grigory

  36. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Peak oil always seems to be 50 years hence, just keep moving it as they discover more of the lovely stuff.

    First forecasts were that the world would have run out of oil by 1890, then 1914…

  37. Mater

    Now people will have to attempt to find them and rescue them and one wonders how many lives will be lost in the rescue attempt.

    Yes, Gab. The evil ‘baby-killers’, that these girls likely condemned, will probably have to risk everything in an effort to extract them. A real moral dilemma, a father loses his grown up daughter or some young children grow up without fathers.

  38. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    From the link on the two Italian girls:

    While studying Linguistic and Cultural Mediation at the University of Milan, her interest in activism grew – as did her desire to travel to Syria and help.

    Did some digging – there is plenty on them – left wing cool-aid drinkers who bought the entire kumbaya/cultural/moral relativism schtick and who believes the whole world is just like them, only with funny hats/accents/clobber.

    I feel very sorry for their families – who pretty obviously knew the hideous reality. But they wanted to be ‘activists’! I have zero sympathy for them. None, nada, zero, zip. They got themselves into this by dint of very great personal effort AND ignoring reality, preferring their own fantasies instead.

    What they did was stupid.

    “Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.”

    ― Robert Heinlein (Lazarus Long)

    He’s not far wrong.

  39. Mk50, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long had many gems in it. Heinlein was a genius.
    The two girls were not.
    Darwin Awards to both.

  40. Notafan

    Parents should have arranged to get their passports revoked.
    University should cancel the cultural mediation course, and replace with the history of islam, a European perspective.

  41. DrBeauGan

    Why would anyone risk life or limb to rescue foolish girls? It’s not as if fools are in short supply.

  42. Mater

    Why would anyone risk life or limb to rescue foolish girls? It’s not as if fools are in short supply.

    Duty!

  43. Notafan

    It’s the classic luvvie meets muzzie love in.

  44. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    Yup. And glad to see you back, too.

    Anyway, offski, gotta get up at 0300, gotta travel to a place where there are bambi’s to be blatted. Why, there’s barely 10kg of venison left in the freezer!

    Scandalous…

    (Hope to get a chital of two this time)

  45. Mater

    It’s the classic luvvie meets muzzie love in.

    You were just watching ‘The Project’ too?

  46. Anne

    Mater

    #1418349, posted on August 15, 2014 at 7:10 pm

    This one is simply extraordinary. It reduced me to tears

    Thanks Grigory

    I concur.

  47. Peter from SA

    The ABC are out of control. Any attempt at genuine analysis and balance is gone. They are only interested in the gotcha’s that drive tabloids. Tonight on the 7pm TV news they had Hockey saying his notorious line about the poor and their car useage. Then they cut direct to a shot of the PM laughing. He was with some serviceman, presumably recent footage but who knows? They obviously weren’t discussing Hockey’s comments. I shouldn’t really be surprised, of course …

  48. Rudiau

    Damn, the world burns and MK50 goes shooting bambies.
    Love your insights.

  49. chrisl

    Wow! just tried to change a Jetstar ticket to another person’s name (due to illness) and they want to charge an extra $494. Seems they cancel the seats I booked five days ago and charge for the dearer seats of today ! Plus $150 fee! Absolute highway robbery!

  50. cynical1

    “Mass troops”

    No one has mentioned massing them.

    ISIS have mentioned fighting.

    In Denmark, Norway, Britain, US, Aus etc.

    ” See you in NY” anyone?

  51. .

    C.L – I am not making any slur against the church.

    People abuse religion and these abuses occurred in (Baptists in the Confederacy) or in the name of Christianity (Catholic France) until and during early modern times.

    Reform is possible, even in political systems based in theocracy.

  52. .

    Yes Philipa I meant clergy crowning the French King and that is what I said before. Other points were undisputed.

    I say it is a good thing French control of the biggest Christian denomination is a good thing and that they don’t have the divine right of kings. If they have an unjust law, let them defend it to other men and not rely on divine authority.

  53. .

    Somehow C.L. DB have a strange view that the abuses of usury and that of Alexander VI didn’t happen.

    There is no need to be this zealous in defending the church, considering no one was attacking the church in the first place.

    Usury held back Europe from growing. Effectively Europe had to adopt a model of joint ventures and near Islamic banking.

    Islamic states will grow too when they demand that normal banking is established.

  54. .

    Philippa Martyr
    #1418275, posted on August 15, 2014 at 6:17 pm
    Also the French Catholic Church suffered for centuries from Gallicanism; eg. it effectively functioned as a State church, under the thumb of the monarch.

    This isn’t the Catholic idea at all, and it damaged the Church there for good.

    Exactly. Reform is good!

  55. gotta travel to a place where there are bambi’s to be blatted.

    mmmmm Bambi Burgers – tasty.

  56. blogstrop

    Test (since it’s a case of nothing much happening so far this new page).
    Self referential, my earlier comment on Political Funding: http://catallaxyfiles.com/2014/08/14/thursday-forum-august-14-2014/comment-page-2/#comment-1418222

    Having said that, I have an 800-page book that’s taking some time to get through, so goodnight.

  57. .

    http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s4067508.htm

    DAVID LEYONHJELM: I would deregulate tertiary education entirely. I think you benefit from it, it’s a career investment, you get it back in higher salary all through your life. Taxpayers shouldn’t pay for that. There’s an awful lot of Australians who don’t go to university and their taxes at the moment are paying for people who do go to university. Now some can say, “Well,” …

    EMMA ALBERICI: So you’d have no government funding?

    DAVID LEYONHJELM: No government funding for tertiary education. All that noise and nonsense about hugely expensive veterinary degrees, for example – I used to be a veterinarian – it’s nonsense. If the fees are too high, people won’t do the courses, the universities would have to sack staff, academic staff would lose their jobs. It’s not going to happen. They would lower the courses – the course fees to the point where it’s affordable and it makes sense. So the fees for those courses would be down at a level where they were consistent with what people thought they would get back during their career. I also don’t have too much problem with the idea of charging a government bond rate for money. That’s the money – that’s the cost that the Government pays to borrow that money to then lend it to the students to do the courses. So I think it’s alright. I’m not convinced that the Government’s going to get that through ’cause not everybody agrees with me, but I don’t have too much problem with that.

  58. Bruce of Newcastle

    It’s not a good idea to go to Syria and stand with the, er, fighters if you are a young woman.

    Trouble with this is some are going to do their bit for jihad:

    ‘Sexual jihad’: Tunisian women go to Syria to ‘relieve’ holy warriors, return pregnant

    Most recently:

    Spain locks up 14-year-old girl travelling to Syria to join Islamic State

    A 14-year-old girl detained on suspicion of trying to join Islamic extremists fighting in Iraq and Syria has been ordered by a Spanish judge to enter a youth detention centre. Police detained the girl and a 19-year-old woman on Saturday as they tried to enter Morocco allegedly to join Islamic State, whose fighters have seized swathes of Iraq and Syria.

    It does not seem likely that the 14 yr old and the 19 yr old were going there to wield AK-47′s.

    The ex IDF lady, though was quite interesting in her aim to make love not war. I don’t think it would’ve worked out too well.

  59. Bons

    From the link on the two Italian girls:
    Recall the two Italian Communist dollies who found themselves ‘held hostage in Iraq’. Lots of Italian media screams for the US to rescue them. Then, along comes Italian hero who miraculously negotiates their release. Problem was that our choreographed hero raced the car towards the waiting Italian media contingent and ignored the intervening anti-suicide bomber road block manned by US Marines who, selfishly, were not going to allow themselves to be blown-up yet again.
    Dead Commo Wog. America’s fault!

  60. C.L.

    Somehow C.L. DB have a strange view that the abuses of usury and that of Alexander VI didn’t happen.

    Dot is still clinging to the notion that a pope or a cardinal is “the Church.”

    The Church cannot go astray.

    Luther certainly could, though.

    He was the originator of the Holocaust, intellectually, and openly lied about Scripture.

    Turning to England, Henry VIII was a serial killer, Cromwell England’s bin Laden.

    But all of this has nothing to do with Islam – a false religion founded by a depraved lunatic, which nearly a millennium and a half after its invention has made no progress whatsoever.

    Relax, Dot. Given your support for statism in marriage and your ‘look over there – slavery’ polemic, Mark Bahnisch will still invite you to his dinner parties and you can all laugh at Sarah Palin.

  61. C.L.

    Islamic states will grow too when they demand that normal banking is established.

    Ahahahahaha.

    It’s their banking laws holding them back, hey Dot?

  62. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    SBS Insight program interviewing Syrian fighters from Australia, and locals who support ISIS, now being repeated on SBS. ISIS flags on some of their clothing as they sit in the studio.

    ‘the Australian govt needs to stop picking on the Muslims here’, says the ISIS supporter, who says ISIS don’t want anything but justice.

    They are going to show footage of ISIS activities now. Wonder what the response will be.
    I didn’t see this show first time round.

  63. JC

    It’s their banking laws holding them back, hey Dot?

    It actually plays some part Cl. Sharia based banks can’t openly earn nor pay interest which means the banks have to do all sorts of silly crap to avoid it. It gets very hard to finance commerce that way. Their balance sheets have a very high proportion of equity as against thinner wafers like in the West.

    Dot is right, if the idiots start allowing interest to be received and paid it means that a fundamental point of Sharia bullshit is being ignored. This means it could very well be used as a marker.

  64. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    They showed a mass killing.
    It was all the fault of the Americans.
    Now a question on the jiziya tax and ethnic cleansing.
    Now ISIS guy is saying they are just following the Koran because these people are not innocent life, so it is OK to kill them.

    Worth a look anyway.

  65. a false religion founded by a depraved lunatic, which nearly a millennium and a half after its invention has made no progress whatsoever.

    You left out – ‘whose prophet was a 52 year old man who married a toddler and deflowered her when she was 9′ There is a word for someone with that sort of peccadillo, what could it be?

  66. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Argh — Da Hairy Ape will make me turn it off in a minute. Silly wittering lefties on this show are driving him crazy. Me too.

  67. stackja

    Old West USA

    Major Rufus Cobb: Paragraph: If we are ever to have law and order in the West, the first thing we gotta do is take out all the lawyers and shoot ‘em down like dogs.

    Australia today

    Authorities had “concerns” about the 19-year-old from Kellyville, in Sydney’s northwest, but there was insufficient evidence to prevent him boarding the plane to the United Arab Emirates last week.
    Further evidence was obtained during the man’s flight, and he was arrested on arrival in the Middle East. linky

  68. Slayer of Memes

    (Early – circa 1982) Robin Williams stand-up act on Foxtel’s Comedy Channel currently.

    Much better than anything else on TV, even if I have seen it multiple times before.

  69. stackja

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
    #1418447, posted on August 15, 2014 at 8:37 pm

    Major Rufus Cobb had way with words too.

  70. Worth a look anyway

    I’ve seen it online previously. Have a look at the body language of da oppressed muzzie yoof, also look at their head and eye movement. It’s open disdain.

  71. stackja

    The teenager who gate crashed a party and threw a metal pole at fellow teen Liam Knight has been sentenced to 12.5 years in jail for grievous bodily harm.
    The offender, known only as DS, has a non-parole period of eight years.
    Knight now suffers permanent damage from the incident … pierced Liam’s skull and lodged in his head.
    The court has previously heard Liam, 18, underwent five hours of life-saving surgery – leaving his “life in tatters”.

    linky

  72. custard

    And now a 40c rise in a tank of fuel is the lead story on ABC news TV WA. This story has been the number one story on the ABC on all platforms all day.

    The (false)narrative is determined by the ABC.

  73. custard

    And now the cream on the cake….

    And now a 40c rise in a tank of fuel is the lead story on ABC news TV WA. This story has been the number one story on the ABC on all platforms all day.

    The (false)narrative is determined by the ABC.

  74. .

    C.L.
    #1418440, posted on August 15, 2014 at 8:34 pm
    Islamic states will grow too when they demand that normal banking is established.

    Ahahahahaha.

    It’s their banking laws holding them back, hey Dot?

    Yes. Absolutely. Could you imagine if we hadn’t had basically a free market in housing and small business finance in Australia since Governor Macquarie?

  75. twostix

    More moderate Muslims doing moderate things.

    Turkey’s soon to be re-elected PM:

    railing against a strange and unlikely combination of Jews and supporters of the US­ based Sunni cleric Fethullah Gulen, who, he insists, are plotting to destroy him

    Mr Erdogan lashed out at correspondent Amberin Zaman, calling her a “shameless militant woman disguised under the name of a journalist”. She was accused of insulting Islam and Muslims and told she should “know her place”. Yesterday another prominent Turkish journalist, Mehmet Baransu, was detained, reportedly as part of a crackdown on dissenting journalism.’

    ….

    The Deputy Prime Minister, Bülent Arınç said women “should not laugh in public” in a speech on “moral corruption” last month.

    Hey, but look over there! French provincial law in 1624!

  76. custard

    Oops in stereo now as well

  77. .

    Dot is still clinging to the notion that a pope or a cardinal is “the Church.”

    I’m doing the exact opposite, actually, if you could ever be bothered to read anything anyone else types.

    The point is reform is possible and it is to be celebrated.

    Relax, Dot. Given your support for statism in marriage and your ‘look over there – slavery’ polemic, Mark Bahnisch will still invite you to his dinner parties and you can all laugh at Sarah Palin.

    Such utter bullshit.

    There is nothing statist in deregulation (which is LDP policy).

    I’ve also backed Palin since around the time people here backed Obama.

  78. .

    twostix misses the point. Reform and enlightenment is possible.

    Erdogan is indeed a worry.

  79. stackja

    .

    #1418499, posted on August 15, 2014 at 9:17 pm
    twostix misses the point. Reform and enlightenment is possible.

    Erdogan is indeed a worry.

    Turkish voters are the real worry.

  80. Gab

    Reform and enlightenment is possible.

    What, for Islam? lol You’re dreaming.

  81. kae

    Has this turned into an Irish open thread?

    I get the feed via email and I’m seeing double…

    I guess it’s just to be sure, to be sure.

  82. stackja

    ‘Reforming Islam in not possible. So far, many reformers and rationalists in Islam have tried but, all of them failed. The root cause is the unchangeable Quran’
    linky

  83. twostix

    twostix misses the point. Reform and enlightenment is possible.

    It’s also “possible” that at next election the LDP will replace the Labor party.

    Let’s set our policies and ideas based on that possibility.

  84. twostix

    Turkish voters are the real worry.

    No you’re wrong.

    Poor beleaguered moderate muslims are simply being held against their will by “extremists” in every islamic country on earth. When they have the right to vote they’ll vote in western liberal democrats like in Turkey and Egy….oh.

  85. Bruce of Newcastle

    Turkish voters are the real worry.

    Islam is the worry. He went Islamist because he knew that would get him elected. He got 52% of the primary vote last Sunday. Remember all that Israel bashing he was doing in the week before the election? Well it worked.

    Now he’s in the Gulenists are going to get the treatment big time.

  86. stackja

    kae
    #1418520, posted on August 15, 2014 at 9:28 pm
    Has this turned into an Irish open thread?

    I get the feed via email and I’m seeing double…

    I guess it’s just to be sure, to be sure.

    a bheith cinnte, a bheith cinnte.

  87. kae

    Couple fall off cliff taking selfies. Offspring look on.

    No. No Darwin award there. They’ve not taken their genes out of the gene pool.

  88. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Major Rufus Cobb? Sorry, Stackja, you’ve lost me on this one. No idea

  89. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    It’s open disdain.

    Yes. Lip-curlingly so for some of them; a few others were more pleasant, concerned, Westernised etc. We were particularly interested in the key speaker for yoof, Abu Bkr and the hot (but somewhat creepy) Nordic blonde with very red lips who was obviously advising him (“don’t answer that” etc); a lawyer, we thought, and so it turned out when they left early, as the audience was told Abu had just left with ‘his lawyer’. Maurice Blackman or Slater and Gordon I expect, says Da Hairy Ape.

  90. stackja

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
    #1418542, posted on August 15, 2014 at 9:47 pm

    Jesse James (1939) Quotes
    Major Rufus Cobb: That’s the stuff! People ain’t hating nowadays like they used to. They gettin’ soft. I got to admit that I like a man that hauls off and hates good and hard. It’s the lawyers – gol-dang it – it’s the lawyers are messin’ up the whole world! Why ten years ago, here in Liberty, we didn’t have no lawyers and we got along fine. Man killed somebody, then somebody killed him, and the marshal shot ‘em all and that was the end of it. But, look at it today: right here in Liberty we got hundreds of lawyers, thousands of ‘em, as far as the eye can see: nothing but lawyers!
    Major Rufus Cobb: Take an editorial on lawyers.
    Roy: Liars?
    Major Rufus Cobb: That’ll do. We’ll begin easy.
    [he begins to dictate]
    Major Rufus Cobb: Paragraph: If we are ever to have law and order in the West, the first thing we gotta do is take out all the lawyers and shoot ‘em down like dogs.

  91. Grigory M

    Gus Gould is a goose.

  92. Grigory M

    Major Rufus Cobb? Sorry, Stackja, you’ve lost me on this one. No idea

    From the movie Jesse James (1939).

  93. DrBeauGan

    Mater, I used to think it my duty to save fools from the consequences of their folly. When walking past a bunch of them digging a hole in soggy ground, I pointed out to them that if they carried on they’d be up to their ears in shit and explained why. They looked at me and they looked at each other and I could see their thoughts. ‘If he wants us to stop digging it must be in his interests if we stop and in ours to carry on’. So they carried on.

    And when I passed by on the way back, Lo! They were up to their ears in shit. So I spoke to them, pointing out that had they listened to the argument they would not be up to their ears in shit. And were they grateful? Not a bit of it.

    I’m prepared to explain to silly people why what they are planning will not lead to the results they expect, so long as it doesn’t take much of my time. They never listen. And keeping them alive allows them to breed. My duty to the species does not permit this.

  94. stackja

    Liberty Quotes
    I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.
    — Ronald Reagan

  95. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Sorry, Stackja, didn’t see your link up above which would have assisted me. Rather distracted by the show and things going on at home. Anyway, it’s good to read the whole quote; amusing.

    Here is a recipe that works. Chop up some fennel bulb, put it in a closed casserole for an hour at 16o degrees fan forced with a handful of cherry tomatoes, some chilli to taste, some olive oil and salt and pepper. Easy so far? So – to continue, peel and vein (dig out the muck) some big prawns leaving on the tail, and after the hour turn up the heat to 230 degrees, arrange the prawns (oil them with a bit of olive oil) on the cooked fennel and tomatoes, add some chopped pieces of feta, and bake in the open casserole for a further ten or some minutes. Serve with some nice bread, with olive oil and balsamic vinegar in a side dish for dipping the bread.

    I just invented this dish, I must proudly tell you all. Da Hairy Ape v. complimentary about it. However, I did have something like it in a restaurant recently and thought I’d have a go. Is that culinary plagiarism? Does it matter? Should I fess up to him?

  96. kae

    Regarding appropriation of our language, at a meeting one day some characters not at the meeting were discussed, the impact of a decision, whether it would be accepted or not, was discussed.

    One of those absent was always in disagreement with everything. I said something about their bloody-mindedness preventing the result of the decision.

    One nitwit chipped me for swearing. I said “bloody”.

  97. .

    A 52% primary vote isn’t unassailable.

  98. stackja

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.
    #1418565, posted on August 15, 2014 at 10:13 pm
    Sorry, Stackja, didn’t see your link up above which would have assisted me. Rather distracted by the show and things going on at home. Anyway, it’s good to read the whole quote; amusing.

    I remember the quote from old TV film showing. I think Bill Collins on Channel 9. Henry Hull was a good actor.

  99. .

    One of those absent was always in disagreement with everything. I said something about their bloody-mindedness preventing the result of the decision.

    One nitwit chipped me for swearing. I said “bloody”.

    What an obfuscating, passive aggressive twit they must be. Sock it to them!

  100. Baldrick

    Tintarella di Luna
    #1418528, posted on August 15, 2014 at 9:35 pm
    The selfie is becoming another source for the Darwin Awards

    Stupid things happen, to stupid people.

  101. MsDolittle

    “Bloody” ??? In the context of “bloody minded”? Kae they’ve got to be kidding. Now that’s an uphill battle.

  102. hzhousewife

    Very interesting interview of Nick Hanauer on Lateline just now.

  103. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Obama’s goin’ grey, says Da Hairy Ape. Abbott’s lookin’ older too, he adds.
    It’s dese tough jobs, dey really take it outta ya.
    I point out that he’s hardly got a grey hair on his head.
    You’re obviously taking it too easy, I chide.
    Whereupon he refers to his chest; yes, salt and pepper there, a little bit, I concede.

    So it must be time again for Lizzie’s Happy Music. Some newbies here may not yet have heard it.
    It’s a knees up for when times seem a bit bleak and grim. A tonic.

  104. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Tinta, are you back in this hemisphere?

  105. The point is reform is possible and it is to be celebrated.

    And yet the calumnies you’ve heaped on the Church and Christianity, slavery and miscegenation bans, have never enjoyed support in the Magisterium at all while the existing institution of slavery was surpressed and finally extinguished by the active efforts of the Church. In fact, you keep returning to France and miscegenation bans even though there were no miscegenation bans in Europe at all, no doubt because they enjoyed no support at all in Christianity or the Church. Now, the fact that they enjoyed no support at all means that there was no need for reform on these questions. None at all.

    If you want to ‘reform’ Islam you have to point to those areas that require reform and provide some basis for their reform that it is internally consistent and thus potentially persuasive to authentic Muslims.

    But please, please stop repeating these calumnies against Christianity in your unreasoned attempt to ‘sanitize’ Islam. Apart from not working, it is disgusting and disgraceful.

  106. MsDolittle

    Lizzie reckon Tinta is transit. I’m off across the ditch for the weekend. Don’t worry I’ll switch the light off when finished.

  107. Obama’s goin’ grey, says Da Hairy Ape. Abbott’s lookin’ older too, he adds.
    It’s dese tough jobs, dey really take it outta ya.
    I point out that he’s hardly got a grey hair on his head.
    You’re obviously taking it too easy, I chide.

    Fair point.
    However, I was going grey @23.
    On the day my dad turned 60, he had less grey hair that did I.

  108. MsDolittle

    “you have to point to those areas that require reform ”

    All of it? Big job.

  109. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Fair point.
    However, I was going grey @23.
    On the day my dad turned 60, he had less grey hair that did I.

    All those years ago, the War Office (The first Mrs. Two Alpha) left me for some rising star where she worked.

    At 21, he was already going bald.

    All those years down the track, at nearly 60, I’ve still got all my hair (snigger – sorry, am I allowed to use that word?)

  110. Tintarella di Luna

    Good evening

    I am still in transit though back in this hemisphere. Lovely re-union with my big boy who survived well, no flesh rendered in anxiousness which is a good sign. I now feel much more comfortable and will be persuaded to travel a little further and for longer. Had a wonderful restful time which has re-charged the batteries. Makedonia done with a native born guide was fantastic, so much history, enslavement for centuries, freedom, enslavement, wars and more besides and the usual trouble brewing from citizen non-assimilators. Such is the history of the species

  111. Tintarella di Luna

    Ms Do business or pleasure?

  112. .

    I’ve been correct in portraying church history. I’m not going to apologise for what it did wrong in the past, or gruesome tales in scripture which no one but fringe groups pay any attention to at all now. I’m not going to apologise for non consequential errors I’ve already acknowledged either.

    The point is, Islam can undergo reform.

    This will happen before our eyes as incomes rise in second world nations. The best thing we can hope for is prosperity in Islamic countries. This would be easier without laws on Islamic banking etc.

  113. Tintarella di Luna

    Stupid things happen, to stupid people.

    Sadly, yes

  114. Tintarella di Luna

    The point is, Islam can undergo reform.

    Gee dot , when do you think that might start happening I mean it’s been what? 1700 years – any minute now might be good

  115. Rafe

    Thanks msdoolittle, 1.26 pm
    http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/truthrevolt-org/what-is-income-redistribution/

    I have circulated that to my agents of influence!

  116. This will happen before our eyes as incomes rise in second world nations.

    This is a fantasy.

    The rise of newly wealthy, secular democracies will not trigger a reformation. More likely, the middle classes in those countries will either become secular or adopt other religions.

    Again, as I said the other day, you have fallen into the mistake of using Christianity as the template. it doesn’t apply.

  117. Gab

    The point is, Islam can undergo reform.

    No, it can’t and won’t. To say it will is ‘heresy’ to muslims.

  118. The best thing we can hope for is prosperity in Islamic countries.

    Like Qatar?
    Is that the model?

  119. Tintarella di Luna

    Again, as I said the other day, you have fallen into the mistake of using Christianity as the template. it doesn’t apply.

    uh-hu oh- yeah

  120. incoherent rambler

    Reform and enlightenment is possible.

    Yeah. Ch. Ch.

    Ch. Sounds like Cheese or China..

  121. I’ve been correct in portraying church history. I’m not going to apologise for what it did wrong in the past, or gruesome tales in scripture which no one but fringe groups pay any attention to at all now. I’m not going to apologise for non consequential errors I’ve already acknowledged either.

    No, your portrayals of Church history have been shown to be abysmally wrong; they neither supported slavery or miscegenation bans, they suppressed the former and finally extinguished it while never supporting the latter which were a modern invention. You ought to apologize for your own errors but you don’t because of…pride.

    The point is, Islam can undergo reform.

    This will happen before our eyes as incomes rise in second world nations. The best thing we can hope for is prosperity in Islamic countries. This would be easier without laws on Islamic banking etc.

    This is just a vain hope. All you are saying is that the richer these societies become the less Muslim they will be. So it isn’t ‘reform’ that you are hoping for anyway, it is the hope that they will lose their Islamic character as they become more prosperous but you are hiding this by waving the banner of ‘reform’.

  122. Tintarella di Luna

    The only way for Islam to reform is for the jihad to morph into an internal jihad where an internal personal war is waged against the deadly sins committed by literal Islamniks — I have a number of Muslim friends who say that is how they deal with the call to jihad – but my lips are sealed lest they be not practicing hard enough

  123. .

    Gee dot , when do you think that might start happening I mean it’s been what? 1700 years – any minute now might be good

    It took Christianity about 1200 years to reform, and hundreds of years after that, it was still being abused to justify illiberal policies.

    You’re about 300 years off with Islam.

  124. Leigh Lowe

    IS supposedly has an jihadist army of 10,000 in the ME. Not a huge number.
    The upside is that if they would just congregate together at the top of one hill, one B52 …

    A fair chunk of them are now located between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers which, according to some Biblical scholars, is the site of Noah’s 15 minutes of fame.
    The head-loppers have conveniently chased the innocent onto higher ground so maybe it is time for a just God to open the sluices and reprise the Great Flood, prematurely inviting the head-loppers to their 72-virgin party.

  125. .

    No, your portrayals of Church history have been shown to be abysmally wrong

    No.

    So it isn’t ‘reform’ that you are hoping for anyway

    How dare you verbal me. You then accuse me of being dishonest.

  126. Tintarella di Luna

    You’re about 300 years off with Islam.

    Oh yeah dot you’re right thanks for correcting me, accuracy is all when it comes to discussions of Muhammedanianism – indeed it was the 6th century, I just keep taking it backwards three hundred years – you’re right though those three hundred years make all the difference to a 6th century death cult practised in the 21st century

  127. MsDolittle

    Tinta, I’m skiing, doc is working. And don’t for one second think I’m one of those skinny latte drinking Dr’s wives that vote for Malcolm, I can’t even play tennis. I get cabin fever as I man the “call centre” (whoops not allowed to call it that) 9-5, 5.5 days a week and I love to get out, even the chip shop is a treat. NZ – over the moon! Tinta knows what I mean.

  128. Leigh Lowe

    @MikeCarlton01 Hey Mike, Guardian? I’m not betting the big bucks Morrie Schwartz is ringing the phone hot with a job offer for a column.

    JC go easy on the guy. He resigned in the sure knowledge he’d be bombarded with job offers. He probably thought he’d get an entire page in the UK Guardian. However, the actual silence may have been a little challenging for his ego just now. I predict more hospital time for “pneumonia” and other, generally non-specific, ailments.

    He will be shaking his mute mobile phone, wondering why it has fallen silent and the job offers aren’t rolling in.
    He will pull the battery out, check the sim-card is inserted properly and make sure the ringtone is turned up to full volume.
    Then it finally dawns on him why the calls have dried up …. fucking Mossad have jammed the signal.

  129. Tintarella di Luna

    It took Christianity about 1200 years to reform, and hundreds of years after that, it was still being abused to justify illiberal policies.

    All in all it took about 1500 years for Christianity to become the kindly religion practised today by so many hundreds of millions throughout the world. I mean from say about 500 AD to about 2000 and then everything started going in reverse because the Leftists cultural relativism has held sway but there is hope … always there’s hope

  130. Tintarella di Luna

    Tinta knows what I mean.

    Ms Do that sounds remarkably close to my job description. Have fun, sounds as though you’re in the zone for apres ski too. Watch out for moguls.

  131. twostix

    The best thing we can hope for is prosperity in Islamic countries.

    I think you’ve gone a little batty on this matter, dot.

  132. MsDolittle

    It took Christianity about 1200 years to reform, and hundreds of years after that, it was still being abused to justify illiberal policies.

    You’re about 300 years off with Islam.

    But Isis have the advantage iPhones and Coke.

  133. .

    Tinta I mean 1200+ years after Constantine (I presume early Christianity was like the ideal) we had the reformation and counter reformation, then we have some abuses of Christianity well into modern history (have a look at Richard Furman for example).

    However, this whole debate seems to be about optimism and pessimism.

    I won’t mention this topic for a long time.

  134. It took Christianity about 1200 years to reform, and hundreds of years after that, it was still being abused to justify illiberal policies.

    Dear oh dear. If something was being abused it was in no need of reform. Have you shown anywhere that Islamic teaching is being abused? No, you haven’t. Have you shown that we can reform these darker elements within Islamic traching by a more nuanced interpretation of the Koran and Hadith? No, you haven’t. All you do is employ nebulous terms like ‘reform’, etc. that even within their own cultural milieu are gross simplifications that are misleading, etc., and apply them to a different cultural milieu in the hope that they will serve. They just won’t. Give it up.

    How dare you verbal me. You then accuse me of being dishonest.

    Verbal you? I’m just re-presenting yourself to yourself. All this guff about rising incomes, etc. is code for de-Islamicizing Islam. Nothing else.

  135. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    The only way for Islam to reform is for the jihad to morph into an internal jihad where an internal personal war is waged

    That’s what I think too, Tinta. The Imams though have to get the word out about this. And they’ll have to allow that persuasion should be the mode of belief, not compulsion (one young woman in a headscarf on that SBS show tonight was tentatively moving in this direction). Islam will also need to make Sharia optional or completely redundant, and bring its laws into line with those accepted by civilized people, especially those laws and prescriptions relating to women. As Dot says, the more economically middle-class and Westernised Islamic believers become, the more their tendency is/will be to take the ‘interpretive’ pathway regarding their Islamic traditions. There is some hope here; even though there seem to be two steps backward for every one step forward at present, with the medieval barbarians currently playing Islamic heroes.

  136. Gab

    I think you’ve forgotten that ‘Islam’ means ‘submit’, Dot and that Sharia is the law of Allah codified. There is no separation of mosque and state in Islam.

  137. Infidel Tiger

    Perhaps Dot could explain what reform in Islam would look like and involve?

    At the moment there seems to be a few reformers marauding their way around the Levant.

  138. MsDolittle

    However, this whole debate seems to be about optimism and pessimism.

    I won’t mention this topic for a long time.

    Why not? Are you huffy? I for one (there are plenty others) enjoy your challenging posts.

  139. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    All this guff about rising incomes, etc. is code for de-Islamicizing Islam.

    I guess that is what we are all hoping for, Dover: that this religion will rise from the ashes of its old self, different, humane and better. Too many people are believers in it for us to give up hope that they will shake off its worst chains, eventually. Modernity can exert extraordinary pressure: see how quickly the family size (number of children) changes under modernity whereas little else has had any impact on it.

  140. twostix

    It took Christianity about 1200 years to reform, and hundreds of years after that, it was still being abused to justify illiberal policies.

    Unfortunately it took just one month in office before the LDP was supporting illiberal policies.

    Apparently your entire defense this week of islam and mass immigration of arab muslims to suburban Australia has been predicated on the basis that in 1200 years islam might reform.

    It would have been nice to know that a few days ago.

  141. Gab

    Islam will also need to make Sharia optional or completely redundant,

    This cannot happen as it would mean Islam is no longer Islam. Every aspect of the day, of living each moment, is ruled by Islam, this is the nature of the ‘religion’. Secularisation is not reformation.

  142. Lizzie:

    Westernised Islamic believers

    Again, sounds to me like ‘de-Islamisizing Islam’.

    ‘interpretive’ pathway regarding their Islamic traditions.

    The problem isn’t the lack of an interpretive tradition since there already is one in Islam represented by the Hadith; the problem is the material itself.

  143. MsDolittle

    Islam will also need to make Sharia optional or completely redundant,

    Fat chance.

  144. Tintarella di Luna

    …that this religion will rise from the ashes of its old self, different, humane and better.

    I saw some photos a while ago posted here I think one showing a graduating class at Cairo University in 1969 and one in 2009 the difference was unbelieveable one showing women and men westernised and apparently secular the other was not – can’t find links now – too tired -

  145. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Reform in Islam? Make the ‘submission’ element a submission to those things that are good, and a turning away from wrong-doing, a submission, a humility if you prefer that term, about the evanescent inexplicability and impertinence yet wonder of human life. Surely these are worthy things to ‘submit’ to Islam could have its own rejection of iconoclasm – bringing back representation into their religious aesthetic. How liberating that would be. Much would require some convolutions around the terms of their Holy Book. But good theologians are like good lawyers – they can argue anything from text. Let the Imans begin.

  146. Rafe

    Hey Grigory, why is Gus Gould a goose (right now?).

    And who won the football?

  147. twostix

    Modernity can exert extraordinary pressure: see how quickly the family size (number of children) changes under modernity whereas little else has had any impact on it.

    There’s no guarantee that’s a state that of affairs that will last forever. I bet there’s lots of people getting old now who wish they’d had more than one kid. If the government aged care system goes rotten like the UK’s there’ll be a lot more people wishing they had a few extra kids to spread the burden on.

  148. C.L.

    NRL officialdom was utterly beclowned again in tonight’s Eeels/Bulldogs match.

    And the official fall-guy is … a 12 year-old ball boy.

  149. Leigh Lowe

    Hey, ms Doluttle … be careful on those sluppery slopes, eh?
    You could cresh off your skis, Sis, end maybe snep a lig bone …. or even worse, hut your hid, like Mucky Scumacher.

  150. Infidel Tiger

    NRL officialdom was utterly beclowned again in tonight’s Eeels/Bulldogs match.

    And the official fall-guy is … a 12 year-old ball boy.

    Cost me a good multi-bet that decision.

  151. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    As you can see by my next post, Dover, I agree – de-Islamising is what it would have to be about.
    Religions can change, and split. Different things can emerge. Perhaps my (undue) optimism comes from having had a very limited religious education within The Church of England – where there is a lot of optionality. :)

    Yes, Tinta, I have seen those old Cairo university photos – also of Turkey in the days when Attaturk’s ideas predominated. Westernising and decent societies were emerging. Political radicalization has set the Islamic world back a thousand years. Rather like our own Aboriginal radicalization, and its destructive ‘dependence’ effects, when compared to the good independent aboriginal families and lifestyles that were emerging from the mission societies.

  152. MsDolittle

    Not being particularly religious myself (sadly a fence sitter), I understood region to be, amongst other things, an avenue for improvement individually and collectively. I certainly subscribe to many of Christianity’s teachings and I am grateful I didn’t have to invent the wheel. However when I look at Islam I just don’t see that basic uplifting quality, you know that “in my own likeness”.

  153. Infidel Tiger

    The uplifting quality of Islam usually comes when they hoist some slut on the gallows for having the temerity to be raped.

  154. As you can see by my next post, Dover, I agree

    I did see that, Lizzie, once I’d posted. Great minds.

  155. Tinta I mean 1200+ years after Constantine (I presume early Christianity was like the ideal) we had the reformation and counter reformation, then we have some abuses of Christianity well into modern history (have a look at Richard Furman for example).

    However, this whole debate seems to be about optimism and pessimism.

    I won’t mention this topic for a long time.

    Dot, this debate is about speculation.

    Talk of a reformation is just idle, optimistic, speculation. That’s all it is.
    Down here in the real world, we deal with the facts as they are, not as we imagine they will be next century. It might reform, it might not. Who knows?
    None of us know.
    I do know that one is not imminent. A reformation will not come along and magically solve the world’s problems. It just won’t come in time.

  156. Cold-Hands

    The point is, Islam can undergo reform.

    The triumph of hope over experience. And you wonder why I describe dot’s posts on this matter as “sophomoric”?

Comments are closed.