Team Australia versus Team Barbarian

Beheading journalists may be of more interest to journalists but this is what truly got to me this morning: Christians Crucified, Beheaded, Buried Alive:

Reverend Franklin Graham, head of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and the international Christian aid group Samaritan’s Purse, said ISIS jihadists are crucifying and beheading Christians in Iraq and Syria–“people are dying for their faith”–and added that he has heard of “incidences where entire families have been buried alive because they refused to convert to Islam.”

But if photographic evidence is more of what you’re looking for, there is this:

Horrific video of American freelance photo-journalist James Wright Foley, 40, being beheaded by ISIS in revenge for US airstrikes 12-days ago in Iraq was posted to the internet Tuesday afternoon.

For more, go to Andrew Bolt.

You may think this “Team Australia” is a bit hokey but I’m with Tony Abbott. This is our version of “you’re either with us or against us”. He is asking people to declare their own position. This is a civilisational war and I know which side I’m on. And I might add that I’m not all that sure we’re going to win it.

UPDATE: Comments by Tony Abbott on the murder of the journalist in Iraq:

TONY Abbott has described the claimed beheading of American journalist James Foley by Jihadist group Islamic State as absolutely sickening and pure evil.

The Prime Minister said he had not seen the video released by the group purportedly showing a masked militant executing the reporter but said it showed why there could be no compromise with the murderous terrorists.

“It’s absolutely sickening, absolutely despicable and it’s a sign that there can be no compromise whatsoever with the murderous terrorists of the ISIL movement,” Mr Abbott told Brisbane Radio 4BC.

“This is evil, this is as near pure evil as we are ever likely to see.”

Mr Abbott said while it was not Australia’s intention to get caught up in unwinnable wars, he would keep talking to partners and allies about how to be useful. Australia had already joined an international air lift to provide humanitarian aid.

“We’re certainly not going to participate in ground wars and things like that,” he said.

But Mr Abbott said Australia agreed with US President Barack Obama’s position not to stand on the sidelines and watch a potential genocide.

The Obama administration says it has not confirmed the authenticity of the video.

The last line is equivocation of the finest kind. What side Team Obama is on is as yet unknown.

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239 Responses to Team Australia versus Team Barbarian

  1. incoherent rambler

    This is a civilisational war and I know which side I’m on. And I might add that I’m not all that sure we’re going to win it.

    1 – I think we are losing it.
    2 – I also know which side I am on.
    3 – Is Abbott sure which side he is on? Or does he need to consult his pollsters in marginal muslim electorates?

  2. Greigoz

    At least the PM has now flushed out those that are against it with many Muslim leaders delivering a scathing response to his call for a united Team Australia.

  3. Alfonso

    “This is our version of “you’re either with us or against us”

    Rubbish, until Abbott stops Muslim immigration he’s not serious…..his words are just dust in the wind.

  4. C.L.

    You appear to have missed the point here Steve. Team Australia doesn’t mean Jack Shit when Abbott trades off the very mainstays of what we’re fighting for to appease the enemy.

    It’s the equivalent of Roosevelt locking up Jews during WWII so as not to anger local Germans.

  5. Fred

    Not a good time to lose one’s head. That’s no way to get ahead in life. It’s a shame he wasn’t more headstrong. He’ll never be the head of a major corporation.

  6. Mark A

    @fred
    and you are a bloody dickhead!

  7. Newbie

    Guess Tones’ “Team Australia” memo didn’t make to IS …

  8. Robbo

    Oh c’mon you have to know that Muslims are really about peace because that is what that cabal of Muslim leaders in Australia keep telling us. They say we are picking on them because of a few isolated incidents like public beheadings and burying people alive. All we have to do to stop that sort of stuff is give up everything we believe in and submit to the Muslim religion and Sharia law, but I have a contrary view. What about rounding up all these murderous bastards and their families and sending the ones who are not Australian citizens off on the first available plane to the country of their birth. As for those who were born here send the lot of them to a nice big fenced off area somewhere in central Australia where they can practice their atrocities on each other.

  9. mareeS

    Steve, I know which side I’m on, as a fairly sensible person, and it isn’t the side of Islam, which seems to have relatively few sensible people in the fold.

    Take comfort from the fact that IS and their atrocities are shocking the west into reality.

    Also take comfort from the fact that the USA is now energy self-sufficient, as is Canada, and Europe has the capacity to be, thus rendering the Middle East irrelevant (apart from terrorism and nihilism, of course, which are their major exports).

  10. Carpe Jugulum

    When dealing with IS you really only have 2 choices;

    1. Bomb them back to the stone age (that’s a short journey)

    2. Nukem till they glow then shoot em in the dark.

    You it makes sense.

  11. dianeh

    This is our version of “you’re either with us or against us”. He is asking people to declare their own position.

    Steve, I hope you are right but I see nothing to suggest that this is the case. It looked more like Abbott was trying to build a consensus on his anti terrorism laws by taking 18C out of the discussion. I don’t think it was expected that the Muslim community would not agree.

    It will become “you’re either with us or against us” but I don’t believe that was the original intention.

  12. A Lurker

    Time for the Roman Catholic Church to declare another Crusade?

  13. Mike of Marion

    dianeh,
    Then Abbott is ‘blind’ to reality.

    He has skirted so many issues now that no-one can accurately determine what he represents.

    For me, he’s a one termer.

  14. Duncan

    The Western Democracies must not think that the problem is only overseas. We must wake up to the fact that most of us have Trojan horses within our very own gates. If we do not deal with them, we WILL be overwhelmed while we are sleeping.

  15. struth

    What good does Muslim immigration do for Australia?
    There s no need for them.
    No reason to have them at all really.
    Plenty of reasons not to.
    Isn’t it amazing that when it comes to glow ball warming the argument used by the left to bring in more totalitarian government when the scientific data doesn’t add up is …….lets do it anyway to be on the safe side.
    Let’s do it anyway just in case…..for the kiddies …….and the planet.

    Here the scientific proof is in.
    The science is settled.
    Islam is an evil good for nothing cult.
    Yet those left wing nut job extremists deniers won’t be told and therefore should be locked up.

  16. Newbie

    @ mareeS

    Do you genuinely believe the West is being shocked into reality by the savagery of Islamic inspired IS? I think we will continue to hear the “No no no no … most Muslims are moderates” meme until the heads start rolling in Sydney. Then every ‘moderate’ will quickly burqa-up and fall in line to go all jihadi on us infidels. Perhaps then the apologists will change their tune.

  17. cohenite

    Thanks Steve; you are correct; however this is not a civilisational war; islam is not a civilization, nor is it a religion. So what is islam?

  18. egg_

    Fred
    #1423475, posted on August 20, 2014 at 11:11 am

    Heads you win lose?

  19. mareeS

    This is a necessary debate for us in the West. It’s why 18c should have been amended by government, but is now being amended by individuals exercising the fundamental right of free speech (aided by IS video atrocities).

  20. A Lurker

    The Western Democracies must not think that the problem is only overseas. We must wake up to the fact that most of us have Trojan horses within our very own gates. If we do not deal with them, we WILL be overwhelmed while we are sleeping.

    The Socialist Left in Australia will aid, excuse, tolerate, promote and pander to our ‘home-grown’ enemies.

    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

  21. Sinclair Davidson

    If we can’t enjoy our freedoms, why exactly are we fighting Team Barbarian? The debate then is who gets to be team captain.

  22. Eyrie

    It is a totalitarian political movement , Cohenite, masquerading as a religion.

  23. Carpe Jugulum

    So what is islam?

    A death cult

  24. .

    Islam is an evil good for nothing cult.

    Yep, sure. Why don’t we lock up Sufis and Ismalis?

    Shut the fuck up if you don’t know what you’re talking about, freak. We don’t want to import totalitarianism under the false veil of protecting freedom.

  25. dianeh

    Then Abbott is ‘blind’ to reality.

    Mike, yep he is. I agree he is going to be a one termer.

    Abbott has come down on the wrong side of too many issues for me to credit that this is some brilliant strategy to force the majority Muslim community to play ball.

  26. struth

    Dot you’re a wanker.
    Read the thing properly and get some comprehension skills.
    Fuck head.

  27. Wozzup

    A message from the Christian Archbishop of Mosul

    “Our sufferings today are the prelude of those you, Europeans and Western Christians, will also suffer in the near future. “Please, try to understand us,” he exclaims. “Your liberal and democratic principles are worth nothing here. You must consider again our reality in the Middle East, because you are welcoming in your countries an ever growing number of Muslims. Also you are in danger. You must take strong and courageous decisions, even at the cost of contradicting your principles. You think all men are equal,” Archbishop Amel Nona continues, “but that is not true: Islam does not say that all men are equal. Your values are not their values. If you do not understand this soon enough, you will become the victims of the enemy you have welcomed in your home.”

    LINK:
    http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/archbishop-of-mosul-your-liberal-and.html

  28. A Lurker

    Thanks Steve; you are correct; however this is not a civilisational war; islam is not a civilization, nor is it a religion. So what is islam?

    It ticks many boxes of the cult checklist.

  29. Sinclair Davidson

    Islam is an evil good for nothing cult.

    Gentlepeople – none of that please. Like every (middle eastern) religion there are bits that don’t fit well with our enlightenment values. That does not make the entire religion evil any more than any of the violent and misogynist bits of Judaism and Christianity make those religions evil.

  30. .

    struth
    #1423532, posted on August 20, 2014 at 11:50 am
    Dot you’re a wanker.
    Read the thing properly and get some comprehension skills.
    Fuck head.

    Take my advice, moron:

    Shut the fuck up if you don’t know what you are talking about.

  31. Wozzup

    Even as I read this, Hockey is on the ABC commenting on this atrocity. He states….”This is not about Muslims or Islam its about a few extremists” (I am paraphrasing)

    When will these people wake up, stop listening to the propaganda of those Muslims who want to keep pretending its nothing to do with them, and take note of the obvious. It is called Islamic terrorism precisely because it is committed by Muslims who declare they are doing it in the interest of Islam and in pursuit of their ambition of controlling the entire world. Listen to the words of true moderate Muslims who have suffered at the hands of islamists and who themselves say this is about Islam – because the Islamists make it so.

    And it is not as if it is only a few as apologists keep claiming. Jesus, if nothing else is obvious, this at least should be obvious by now. Over the past decade there have been over 18,000 atrocities committed by Islamic terrorists, each one involving several murders. Except on this site which records each one for the record most go unreported by the media as many do not involve western casualties

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Do every one of there 18,000 islamic perpetrators not understand Islam. or do they understand it all too well. Playing this pathetic game of pretend is doing no one any good, not Australia, and not even the peaceful Muslims. And by doing so our politicians are playing into the hands of the violent extremists.

    Wake Up Australia.

  32. struth

    Distance from the problem work for you Sinc?

    Dot didn’t get the irony that the left have called for GW “deniers” to be locked up and worse.
    I was making comparisons with the Islamist deniers.
    Turning it back on them in a sarcastic fashion.
    Get it now dot you raving idealist?

  33. Sinclair Davidson

    Distance from the problem work for you Sinc?

    What?

  34. struth

    An apology any time ….soon?

  35. .

    Why don’t we just introduce our pet topics into every debate to prove a point in any debate we previously didn’t feel we belted the opposition hard enough?

  36. incoherent rambler

    Abbott has an “ironclad” commitment to the team. Just like he had an ironclad commitment to repealing 18C.
    Relax folks, we are in good hands.

  37. mareeS

    Wozzup has the best link re islam. Read it.

    I sent it to my daughter-in-law, who is Indonesian and Christian. She says Islamism is very much on the nose in Indonesia in her circles of business and tourism, and that most Indonesians of her acquaintance have no patience for it.

    She says the youtube shots are horrifying to her and her friends, let alone my Aussie son, who deals with some of these people in his job.

  38. struth

    Well Mr Davidson I believe there would be plenty of people in the middle east that would agree with me before you. At least the ones that still have their heads.

  39. Sinclair Davidson

    Even if that were true, how does that invalidate my comment?

  40. And Another Thing

    Look, we can still win, but I can’t overstate the urgency of doing something now. The other side started ages ago. First, Obama and other western leaders must stop deluding themselves. Even Chamberlain knew a war was on when Hitler didn’t send him a telegram advising that his troops were getting out of Poland.
    The Muslim population is at about 3 percent now. Luckily for us, our security forces have been able to stop planned massacres on Australian soil, but how long before some lunatics get past the cordon?
    Until further notice, planning permits for Muslim religious buildings must be stopped, Muslims who are not citizens should be sent to their home countries and extreme vigilance must be kept over what goes on and what is said in mosques.
    Whatever the reason for Tony Abbott’s Team Australia move, the refusal of Muslims to countenance it has given us our Poland moment.

  41. struth

    Put the bong down dot.

    Free love is not all its cracked up to be.

  42. john constantine

    Question one: does Byzantium Billy shorten support team australia, or isn’t the focus group poll in to tell him his core value yet?.

    Question two, does Sharia Hanson-Young support team australia?.

    Why do we have to ask ourselves these things?, is it just that the crony socialism ruling the media have protected their tools from the hard questions?.

  43. john constantine

    If the next Green-Shorten government of australia believe in open borders to recruit mass movement of vote people, why would any australian muslim defy the mass murdering thrill killers, and let their family become vunerable, simply to support a team australia that will be as dead as the day of the balanced budget in 20 months time?.

  44. And Another Thing

    John Constantine

    Hope the time doesn’t come when Billy agrees with whatever the bloke with the knife said.

  45. Kingsley

    Obama won’t, but should now say because you have murdered one of my citizens I have now ordered the USAF and USN to dramatically ramp up the air campaign in Northern Iraq to the 1000 sortie a day level. No need to be direct threat to American embassy or potential genocide before shoot to kill. Rather “see an IS Toyota blow it up” is the new standing order

    The only silver lining I see to Mr Foleys murder is the air strikes must be stinging them. Please find the courage Mr Obama to pour it on now.

  46. struth

    Islam is a message of hate and intolerance.
    It (to me) is an abhorrent evil the world and the rest of the peaceful religions of the world would be better off without.
    I cannot understand the timidity or denial of the bleeding obvious when , especially in these times I say islam is evil and somebody can actually say…….steady on.
    What will it take?

  47. notafan

    Islam does not say that all men are equal

    Yes and given that a fundemental belief of all muslims is that muslim men are superior where is the commitment to Australian society?
    Kafir (Arabic: كافر‎ kāfir, plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic provocative slur used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as “unbeliever,” “disbeliever,” or “infidel.” The term refers to a person who rejects God in Islam or who hides, denies, or covers the “Islamic version of truth.” The practise of declaring another Muslim as a kafir is takfir. The term is considered offensive by non-Muslims.

  48. Oh come on

    Of course we can win. The west’s major conflict is an internal one. This sideshow with radical Islam is merely a symptom of our malaise. In the past we would have cheerily crushed them like bugs by now; every single one of them. And we will be able to do so again – and we will – just as soon as we snap out of our decadent stupor. Unfortunately, it’ll take another 9/11 or worse to do that. Nothing focuses the mind like a WMD let off in a large western city.

  49. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From mareeS at 11:25 am:

    “Take comfort from the fact that IS and their atrocities are shocking the west into reality.”

    Yasser Arafat and his PLO shocked the West into reality with the odd hijack and occasional killing of lots of infidels. That shock didn’t last long because there was always the next Superbowl, Olympic Games or hot pizza to distract them.

    He continued with the slaughter for decades, was Nobel-ed for his efforts and invited to take his place at the UN.

    History tells me that feeling of “comfort” won’t last long.

  50. Leigh Lowe

    Obama won’t, but should now say because you have murdered one of my citizens I have now ordered the USAF and USN to dramatically ramp up the air campaign in Northern Iraq to the 1000 sortie a day level.

    If only ISIS would shoot holes in a black tub of lard in Missouri.
    That would get President McBambipants attention.

  51. john constantine

    Why would australia encourage ‘petro-islam’ to build command and control centers spread throughout the country, funded by the people that fund the saudi state religious police unit? [cut and paste follows] .Estimates of Saudi spending on religious causes abroad include “upward of $100 billion”,[99] between $2 and 3 billion per year since 1975. (compared to the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1 billion/year),[100] and “at least $87 billion” from 1987-2007[101]

    Its largesse funded an estimated “90% of the expenses of the entire faith”, throughout the Muslim World, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian.[102] It extended to young and old, from children’s madrasas to high-level scholarship.[103] “Books, scholarships, fellowships, mosques” (for example, “more than 1,500 mosques were built from Saudi public funds over the last 50 years”) were paid for.[104] It rewarded journalists and academics, who followed it and built satellite campuses around Egypt for Al Azhar, the oldest and most influential Islamic university.[105] Yahya Birt counts spending on “1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools”.[100][106]

    This financial has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew,[102] and has caused the Saudi interpretation (sometimes called “petro-Islam”[107]) to be perceived as the correct interpretation—or the “gold standard” of Islam—in many Muslims’ minds.[108][109]

  52. old bloke

    This is a civilisational war and I know which side I’m on. And I might add that I’m not all that sure we’re going to win it.

    Steve, according to Christian eschatology, we will win but it will take time (7 years) and take many lives, more than half of the world’s population. We are only seeing the early skirmishes at the moment, the argy-bargy and the push & shove before the fight begins in earnest, and it won’t be pretty.

    The war doesn’t begin until a mystery nation called Babylon, or the daughter of Babylon according to the Prophets, is destroyed. This nation is described as the world’s final and greatest super-power nation (the “hindermost of nations” according to Jeremiah), its sudden demise creates a power vacuum which other less benign forces rush to fill.

  53. john constantine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Promotion_of_Virtue_and_the_Prevention_of_Vice_(Saudi_Arabia)

    Australians are entitled to worship as they see fit,regardless of denomination, but letting the petro-islamists fund a network of centers indebted to the saudi religious secret police doesn’t sound like team australia. 20 adults in a small country town can’t fund a million dollar mosque in a year through community fund raisers.

  54. Sinclair Davidson

    What will it take?

    Evidence? You know, like an explanation as what aspect precisely makes the religion inherently evil, yet explains why more than 95% of adherents themselves are not evil. A careful explanation that untangles a religious explanation from alternatives – failed states, rent-seeking over resources, individual lunacy and so on.

    The point is this; Jihadis are not the first adherents of a middle-eastern religion that have gone troppo – hopefully they’ll be the last.

  55. struth

    Evidence?…..really?

    I take it your argument is the few don’t make them all bad.
    Yet to islam we are ALL bad as infidels.
    What has been tbe responses here and around the world with regard to anti semitism and
    …..well,…..sorry you must be baiting me
    You can’t be serious.

  56. C.L.

    Of course it’s a cult.

    Christians are more or less obliged to profess this because Christ was the Alpha and the Omega. There are no more prophets. So yes, it is a cult – like Scientology, Mormonism or climate change.

  57. Sinclair Davidson

    Yet to islam we are ALL bad as infidels.

    … and in Christianity all non-believers go to hell. Heretics are burned at the stake.

  58. Sinclair Davidson

    CL – that’s a separate argument.

  59. JC

    Can people just calm down about this muzzo thing. It seems that some people here are becoming obsessed with it’s it’s not going to be banned, not should it be.

  60. The Middle East is seriously underestimating what the European public are capable of when seriously pissed off. Their rubber band stretches a lot further. As usual the US will have to step in and clean up the mess again.

  61. JC

    So yes, it is a cult – like Scientology, Mormonism or climate change.

    The gerbil warming cult killed a million people in the latter part of last decade when biofuels were the rage.

  62. john constantine

    Follow the money.

    first saudi money, which seems to have even bought the power for the saudi’s to swing an australian election.

    second, good jobs in halal, which aren’t given through a company’s human resources department, but given to the right sort as a reward through an ‘islamic A.W.U.’

    -currency doesn’t have to be fiat currency shopping vouchers, it can be as simple as a thuggish no-hoper getting fame and attention as a jihadi, and the power rush of the thrill kill. Again, follow the money that provides the supplies and logistics.

    —a civil action by christian victims of petro-islam funded jihadi thrill killers, to be able to use london and paris located property and assets of the house of saud and al-jazeera for compensation would be justice.

  63. C.L.

    Abbott (aka Matt Damon) must call in Keysar Trad for consultation immediately!

  64. mareeS

    “what aspect makes the religion inherently evil” is the cutting off of heads and posting it on youtube, Sinc, and posing children for selfies with severed heads.

    “A careful explanation that untangles a religious explanation for alternatives” happened in Christendom about 300 years ago, and is yet to happen in Islam.

    The point is this: Islam is incompatible with my rights, and the responsibilities of any and every Australian, so let’s just draw the line.

  65. jupes

    Like every (middle eastern) religion there are bits that don’t fit well with our enlightenment values. That does not make the entire religion evil any more than any of the violent and misogynist bits of Judaism and Christianity make those religions evil.

    Industrial strength ignorance Sinc. Bits FFS? Bits? The whole thing is rancid, consider:

    The Koran is a tiny book compared to the bible. There are only 114 chapters in the Koran yet fully 103 of them contain hate speech. This means that over 90% of possible sermons at the mosque exhort the faithful to smite necks and hands, hate Christians and Jews and rape their wives.

    On the other hand, a Christian could go to church every week of his life, hear a different sermon every time and never hear hate speech.

    For an example of an exemplary life, Christianity has the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament where he exhorts his followers to live peaceful lives. Islam has the example of Mohammad in the Hadith where he exhorts his follows to have multiple wives (including kiddies), kill their enemies, enslave and rape captured women and stone adultresses to death.

    Your moral equivalence here is astonishing.

  66. .

    Steve, according to Christian eschatology, we will win but it will take time (7 years) and take many lives, more than half of the world’s population. We are only seeing the early skirmishes at the moment, the argy-bargy and the push & shove before the fight begins in earnest, and it won’t be pretty.

    The war doesn’t begin until a mystery nation called Babylon, or the daughter of Babylon according to the Prophets, is destroyed. This nation is described as the world’s final and greatest super-power nation (the “hindermost of nations” according to Jeremiah), its sudden demise creates a power vacuum which other less benign forces rush to fill.

    Please tell me you’re not serious, Nostradamus.

  67. struth

    Yep it’s not going to be banned but it should be.
    It is not just a religion it is a state.
    Incompatible with ours and like the left tbrough our institutions works slowly and methodically to grow.
    It must be stopped.
    We have the power bu our institutions have already been corrupted and so it will get worse.

  68. Oh come on

    Who is western civilisation’s nemesis? Why, the left of course. ISIS’s great protector and benefactor.

  69. struth

    Sinc…..where are the christians burning people at the stake in the 21st century?
    We climbed out of the dark ages.
    Muslims have not.
    Christians if bad go to hell when they die, they are told.
    Muslims create hell here on earth.
    But the main thing is that christians in the 21st century don’t kill muslims because they are told to in the bible …..
    Muslims little rule book is pure peasant evil.

  70. notafan

    “A careful explanation that untangles a religious explanation for alternatives” happened in Christendom about 300 years ago, and is yet to happen in Islam.

    I don’t agree, there was a schism in Christianity 300 years ago but the Catholic part has held tight to the same doctrinal beliefs for 2000 years and when people refer to the Church it is the Catholic Church they mean. People are sinners and do the wrong thing but the message of Christ has never changed.
    Islam has been in schism since the get go, not on doctrinal issues but on who is in charge. The message of Mohammed has not changed, will not change and we know from history and the words of the koran exactlyt what it means.

  71. M Ryutin

    Thanks for the reminder that this is a “civilisational war”. I was getting sick and tired of hearing Obama/Holder-types banging on about the Australian equivalent of “give up that and then the terrorists have already won” rubbish. It IS a civilization war you fools! Rights are theoretical in ISIS-controlled areas and in countries like ours were they and their sympathisers are permitted to live the phrase “they will give us the rope to hang them with” must sound as if it was meant for the “rights at all costs” mob.

    This Islamist trash has to be eradicated from our society and it is no holds-barred. Maybe there are too many isolated in ivory towers; that this is some sort of esoteric debate? Well it’s real to those living near the members of this Fifth Column. It was clear to some of us by the time of 911.

  72. incoherent rambler

    Prediction scenario – Things will change in the middle east, ultimately the best funded will win out.
    IS, Hamas and Hezbollah will rule over their territories. Egypt will remain the last (shaky) bastion of non-islamic rule.

    The question arises in this scenario of “Who chooses the next battleground?”
    Methinks the west can fight IS on their territory or we can fight them on ours. But fight them we will.

  73. .

    Islam has been in schism since the get go, not on doctrinal issues but on who is in charge.

    Exactly. Singular Islam, a Caliphate or Islam as a State are practically impossible.

  74. cohenite

    Evidence? You know, like an explanation as what aspect precisely makes the religion inherently evil, yet explains why more than 95% of adherents themselves are not evil.

    This is one of the default positions to the claim that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim: to wit it is just a few bad apples, a minority.

    The minority of muslims actively involved in jihadism, cutting off the heads, mass executing, stoning and raping the women, in whatever order, etc is not a high percentage of the world population of 1.6 billion muslims. Studies have shown about 15% of all muslims have the potential to be terrorists. Which is still a low % but quite a lot in absolute terms.

    The real interest is what % of muslims want sharia law to prevail over Western secular law. Studies have shown that is a very high %, in some countries over 90%.

    That is an essential starting point for any discussion about islam and the West: the unwillingness of muslims to accept the dominance of secular law. That fact alone means muslims, as a whole, are not moderate.

  75. notafan

    Church it is the Catholic Church

    I would include the Orthodox in the doctrinal part and note the Orthodox have suffered most at the hands of islam

  76. dan

    violent and misogynist bits of Judaism

    Uh there aren’t any violent aspects of modern Judaism (as opposed, perhaps, to Zionism).

  77. .

    This is one of the default positions to the claim that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim: to wit it is just a few bad apples, a minority.

    It is correct.

    Studies have shown about 15% of all muslims have the potential to be terrorists.

    What a laughable piece of “research”.

  78. cohenite

    Dot, you’re becoming a real pain in the arse, arguing [sic] and insulting by declaration. Present some evidence for your cosy, sanguine view of islam.

  79. dan

    Studies have shown about 15% of all muslims have the potential to be terrorists

    25 million Indonesians are getting ready to kill innocent people?
    I lived in Indonesia. I can tell you this debate is getting ridiculous when statistics like that are being bandied about. The source you quote is absurd. It depends on things like the population of Gaza that voted for Hamas which tells you enough.

  80. incoherent rambler

    Dot, you’re becoming a real pain in the arse, arguing [sic] and insulting by declaration.

    Dot, you’re becoming a real pain in the arse, arguing [sic] and insulting by declaration.

    FIFY.

  81. dan

    Present some evidence for your cosy, sanguine view of islam.

    the 249,999,980 (?) Indonesians who haven’t blown anything up
    the 31,999,990 Moroccans who haven’t blown anything up
    the many Muslims I met in Israel and the West Bank who didn’t try to behead me

  82. Sinclair Davidson

    Jupes – I have read the Koran.
    Struth – yes. Give it time.
    Dan – Google Alamakite.

  83. notafan

    Indonesia is not immune to extremism, note many attacks on Christians and Christian churches and the Bali bombings

  84. A Lurker

    Evidence? You know, like an explanation as what aspect precisely makes the religion inherently evil, yet explains why more than 95% of adherents themselves are not evil.

    If we go on the assumption that 5% of the adherents of Islam are fundamentally evil, and if we do a google search of how many Muslims there are in the world (the answer is 150 million), that leaves us with the unsettling number of 7,500,000 potential head-loppers, suicide bombers, commercial aircraft hijackers, and other such terrorist-types ready, willing and able to part our head from our shoulders, blow us up, shoot us, rape us, and otherwise do really nasty things to us in the name of their religion/cult/political/social ideology.

    If we also throw into the mix the 19 evil Islamic fanatics who enacted terrorist events in the US on September 11 and the resultant civilian death toll – 3000; and then look at the other terrorist events in the US, the UK, Europe, Indonesia and Africa, then we can see at a glance the potential for mass casualty events perpetuated by just a small number of evil fanatics.

    If we also calculate that the West now has significantly more Muslims than say twenty years ago, and if we apply Sinc’s 5% number to those people – well, I can’t say I’m particularly reassured – especially given that the number of 5% may well be expanded by those who excuse, finance, distract, support, lie, and look the other way, and a further even larger percentage who are likely cowed into submission and silence.

    Hardly reassuring Sinc.

  85. Oh come on

    How on God’s green earth could anyone dignify ISIS and the assorted radical Islamists with the implied stature that comes with being an existential threat of the west? They are fundamentally weak – they can do little to us. The US conducted a limited air offensive against them, and consequently our allies were able to seize back some highly prized war booty. Their response? Behead an American captive. Ugly and outrageous, most certainly. But a sign of impotence. We could hit them fifty times harder from the sky and what would they do (before the shiites and Assad roll up their crappy tinpot caliphate post-strike)? Behead their other American hostage? Whoopdeedoo.

    They are weak. They better pray we don’t get started on them.

  86. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From A Lurker at 1:27 pm:

    ” Evidence? You know, like an explanation as what aspect precisely makes the religion inherently evil, yet explains why more than 95% of adherents themselves are not evil.

    If we go on the assumption that 5% of the adherents of Islam are fundamentally evil, and if we do a google search of how many Muslims there are in the world (the answer is 150 million), that leaves us with the unsettling number of 7,500,000 potential head-loppers, suicide bombers, commercial aircraft hijackers, and other such terrorist-types ready, willing and able to part our head from our shoulders, blow us up, shoot us, rape us, and otherwise do really nasty things to us in the name of their religion/cult/political/social ideology.

    … the number of 5% may well be expanded by those who excuse, finance, distract, support, lie, and look the other way, and a further even larger percentage who are likely cowed into submission and silence.

    Hardly reassuring Sinc.”

    These figures are … inconvenient A Lurker. Yours too Cohenite.

  87. notafan

    They have convinced themselves that Allah is on their side. If America woops them from the sky and the Shias, Yadizi, Kurks, Turkmen, tribesmen and Christians give them a taste of their own medicine they will run home and turn their hate to softer targets in the West.
    That’s 10,000 foreign fighters and however many active supporters they have on their home turf.

  88. Oh come on

    I don’t think they’re going to have such an easy time getting home. They’ve destroyed their passports, we know who they are, they’ll likely spend the rest of their days in an internment camp if they try to return to Dar al-Harb. We know who they are because they’ve thoughtfully posted images of themselves posing gleefully with their bizarre war bounty. They won’t be able to lead any kind of normal life if they try to return.

  89. .

    cohenite
    #1423687, posted on August 20, 2014 at 1:14 pm
    Dot, you’re becoming a real pain in the arse, arguing [sic] and insulting by declaration. Present some evidence for your cosy, sanguine view of islam.

    Present some real research and you might get a bite.

  90. Aristogeiton

    Oh come on
    #1423719, posted on August 20, 2014 at 1:40 pm
    How on God’s green earth could anyone dignify ISIS and the assorted radical Islamists with the implied stature that comes with being an existential threat of the west?

    This.

  91. Glinda

    Time for the Roman Catholic Church to declare another Crusade?

    No, they’ve got to wait another 450 years to do that. But, don’t worry, the Sufis and Ismailis will save us – at least Dot thinks so.

  92. .

    Oh Come On is right. ISIS are are sitting duck. They are not going to destroy the West, despite their crimes against humanity being particularly infamous or notable.

  93. .

    No, they’ve got to wait another 450 years to do that.

    WTF is this nonsense?

  94. Aristogeiton

    Dot, she’s insane.

  95. Gab

    Time for the Roman Catholic Church to declare another Crusade?

    For what reason? There ‘s hardly any Christians remaining in the Middle East. Islam has seen to that.

  96. Oh come on

    They will rule their crappy sandpit just as long as we let them.

  97. JohnA

    Sinclair Davidson #1423629, posted on August 20, 2014 at 12:47 pm

    Yet to islam we are ALL bad as infidels.

    … and in Christianity all non-believers go to hell. Heretics are burned at the stake.

    No Sinc. That kind of moral equivalence is wrong.

    Christianity says that everybody is bad (in fact, we are all rebels fighting against God) BUT that God has done something about it. Therefore the world is divided into “the saved” and the “yet-to-be-saved (potentially)”.

    To a Christian believer, the unbeliever is estranged and Christians are ambassadors trying to win him over to God’s “side” of the war – to persuade him to voluntarily surrender. To a Muslim, an unbeliever is and remains an enemy – to be forcibly converted, forcibly subjugated, or forcibly killed.

    To a Christian, while there is life, there is hope for change, so an unbeliever is always supposed to be treated with respect, even when they hold heretical views. If an unbeliever refuses to change, then the believer isn’t to “execute final judgement”, they are to leave that to God.

    To a Christian, going to hell is bad but avoidable – the consequence of remaining a rebel and refusing the surrender terms. Ultimately, all non-believers in hell are there by their own choice/s, their own refusal of the surrender terms. Maybe you need to (re-)read “The Great Divorce” by CS Lewis.

  98. .

    What’s going to happen in 450 years Glinda?

  99. notafan

    however many active supporters they have on their home turf.

    What about the 1350 the Grand Mufti said he prevented from going?
    I guess we just have to wait and see what happens. Mr Abbott isn’t calling meetings about Team Australia and cancelling freedom of speech because of the 150 currently in Syria and Iraq.
    But let them come home and be reeducated like the Grand Mufti wants though, they are just poor misguided mites tricked by those wicked Zionists.

  100. Glinda

    Dot/Aristogeiton, so now history is nonsense and insanity. Go read a history book. It’ll give both of you a break from your sophomoric abuse. Islamic conquest was raging for more than 450 years before the Crusades were called.

  101. .

    If we’re quoting Lewis, then we accept exclusivists are wrong, viz. Emeth.

  102. .

    Glinda
    #1423765, posted on August 20, 2014 at 2:11 pm
    Dot/Aristogeiton, so now history is nonsense and insanity. Go read a history book. It’ll give both of you a break from your sophomoric abuse. Islamic conquest was raging for more than 450 years before the Crusades were called.

    You are abusing reality. You’re actually implicitly blaming the Catholics of today for Islamic Imperialism not being tackled under the Rashidun.

  103. nilk

    and in Christianity all non-believers go to hell. Heretics are burned at the stake.

    I’m not a scholar but I don’t agree with that. You may not get all the way to Heaven complete with beatific vision, but that doesn’t mean you’ll burn.

    The only person who can say for sure is God, and He’s not answered my questions on the matter. Two atheist parents both long gone means it’s something that I do think about.

    In Islam, we’re all najis kuffar and that’s putting it politely.

    I honestly couldn’t care less that I’m compared with swine, dogs, faeces, all sorts of bodily fluids. It’s when people start taking to the street and shouting out allahu akhbar that I start having issues.

    Especially when they’re waving a battle standard with the shahada on it.

  104. Glinda

    What’s going to happen in 450 years Glinda?

    Well, one thing’s for sure, thankfully. I won’t be trading insults with bad-tempered, abusive numbskulls.

  105. .

    Do you feel like withdrawing your know nothing anti Catholic bashing, Glinda?

  106. Viva

    The debate then is who gets to be team captain.

    No debate there – Team Australia’s captain is an Anglo-Germanic monarch.

  107. Glinda

    You are abusing reality. You’re actually implicitly blaming the Catholics of today for Islamic Imperialism not being tackled under the Rashidun.

    OMG, Dot, it’s worse that I thought! Does your computer translate my words from English into Dot-speak? You have rendered me speechless by the unbelievably twisted interpretation of my quite innocuous statement. I fear you need help.

  108. .

    Nilk

    Lewis was a scholar and a great writer. He says that view is wrong.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emeth

    Perhaps the strongest support for Lewis’ case is found in Romans 2:13-15 (TNIV):

    For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

  109. Anne

    I’m thinking it would be fun to have lunch with Dot and Glinda.

    I’d have to keep the grog away from Dot and the cutlery away from Glinda but it could be fun. ;-)

  110. jupes

    Jupes – I have read the Koran.

    Then how can you make such ignorant statements? The evil chapters of the Koran easily outnumber the … um, let’s call them ‘good’ chapters. Notwithstanding that most of the ‘good’ stuff is about how to treat fellow Muslims rather than the Kaffir.

    You may know some nice Muslims and therefore believe the ‘few bad apples’ bit of taqyia, however one thing can be guaranteed: The more Muslims, the more attacks on synagogues and Jews in Australia. Islam is a racist, totalitarian ideology.

  111. Ant

    I have asked this hypothetical before:

    Is fire-bombing the cities these people now hold be morally justifiable?

    Would fire-bombing Berlin (if the means existed) and reducing it to ashes after Germany started WWII have been morally justifiable in 1939?

    I think the answer is yes and, indeed, it would be more morally justifiable now to do it to the Islamonazis than to the Germans in 1939.

    At least the Nazis tried to hide their ultimate intent. Today, IS/ISIS/ISIL don’t even bother pretending.

  112. Aristogeiton

    Anne
    #1423784, posted on August 20, 2014 at 2:26 pm
    I’m thinking it would be fun to have lunch with Dot and Glinda.

    You’d just spend the whole time talking about me again and bore them witless.

  113. incoherent rambler

    “IS lunatic” versus “moderate muslim”.

    Other than missing my head, how does one tell the difference?
    This is the problem that the Euros will face if IS expands out of the middle east.

  114. Do you feel like withdrawing your know nothing anti Catholic bashing, Glinda?

    Yeah, Glinda. Quit cutting in on Dot’s territory.

    Demarcation dispute! Down tools, brothers!

  115. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Like every (middle eastern) religion there are bits that don’t fit well with our enlightenment values. That does not make the entire religion evil any more than any of the violent and misogynist bits of Judaism and Christianity make those religions evil.

    As with Christianity and Judaism, it is a question of which parts and textual pieces of the religion are adhered to, and which are ‘interpreted away’. I am not inherently anti-Islam. I think there is a lot of value in old Sufi poetry and mystical break-away groups – say the original sentiments of Omar Kyham before the FitzGerald version (I love the latter too, which contains much of the original spirit). We should not forget however that the ‘houri’ under the bough sharing the verse and wine, in the original, was a slave girl, not necessarily a willing lover. That’s how it was in medieval Islamic times. Other world religions have moved on since then. Islam – not so much. And now it is moving bloodily backwards into a living hell, the hell of the early Indo-Euroopean headhunters and raiders, a hell from which one would hope all Muslims of goodwill and good sense would immediately come out strongly to dissociate themselves. But they are not, in numbers, doing so.

    They are scared? Or they are complicit in the name of a tribal form of affiliation that demands conquest?
    This is how fascism wins.

  116. incoherent rambler

    Elizabeth, excellent summary and excellent questions. Thanks for that.

  117. Anne

    incoherent rambler

    #1423795, posted on August 20, 2014 at 2:33 pm

    “IS lunatic” versus “moderate muslim”.

    Other than missing my head, how does one tell the difference?
    This is the problem that the Europeans will face if IS expands out of the middle east.

    This is an interesting posit Rambler. I suppose they would go up through Turkey, that bird’s almost cooked anyway and thence to Greece. The millions of embedded European Muslims, cognizant that the world’s policeman is playing golf and emboldened by IS success, would rise up against their oppressors.

    I don’t know where they’d get their weapons. Maybe they wouldn’t need them. Three decades of leftism and progressive wussification has left no rugged men to fight.

    I’m starting to think this could be a world war of Biblical proportions.

  118. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    How on God’s green earth could anyone dignify ISIS and the assorted radical Islamists with the implied stature that comes with being an existential threat of the west? They are fundamentally weak – they can do little to us

    Not so. They can be a serious irritant to us by radicalizing our local populations into terrorist activities and thus disrupting our commerce, trade and leisure. They do not have the wits to see it but they are also hell bent (‘hell’ being the operative word) on forcing change on their own religion from within, as their actions cause Western populations get tougher with Muslims in our midst, forcing them to modernise (no hijabs, no special schools, no special treatment re celebrations and prayers, refusal to legally accept any aspects of Sharia law, prosecutions enforcing women’s rights, compulsory new Koranic re-interpretations – we will find an Attaturk, do not doubt it). This will definitely happen to a much greater extent if the barbarism continues and comes home to us. The present mood of our populations is far less tolerant of Muslim backwardness than it has ever been. The tender light-footedness we are presently offering Muslims will overreach itself. Abbott should take note of this.

    We will not see them win here, nor stand by to see horror in our own countries without a fight.

  119. Zaphod

    ….cognizant that the world’s policeman is playing golf …”

    What is it with US Presidents and golf

  120. dan

    Dan – Google Alamakite.

    If you mean Amalekite Sinc I specifically wrote “modern Judaism”.

  121. dan

    This is the problem that the Europeans will face if IS expands out of the middle east.

    Assuming Europe WANT to fight them they would easily be taken care of.

  122. jupes

    the 249,999,980 (?) Indonesians who haven’t blown anything up

    As opposed to the ones that have? Bali bombing x2, Australian Embassy bombing, Marriot Hotel bombing x 2, Ritz-Carlton Hotel bombing. This is the best you’ve got? Sure, they are more ‘moderate’ than the Middle East however averaging a bombing ever couple of years since 2002 is hardly a model of civilization.

    Don’t forget that Aceh is kept ‘moderate’ only because the faithful are allowed to live somewhat autonomously under Sharia Law. There’s also the ‘moderate’ Muslims in Sulawisi who beheaded schoolgirls for the crime of being Christian. But yeah, Indonesia is a good as it gets in the Islamic world.

    the 31,999,990 Moroccans who haven’t blown anything up

    They might have burned a few cars and attacked a few synagogues though. Over 1 mil Muslims from Morocco live in France.

    the many Muslims I met in Israel and the West Bank who didn’t try to behead me

    LOL. Of course that is nothing to do with the protection provided by Israel. Just the moderation expected of Palestinian Muslims.

  123. john constantine

    Has anybody heard gillard calling out the misogyny?.

  124. jupes

    We will not see them win here, nor stand by to see horror in our own countries without a fight.

    Yeah nah. Depends who you reckon will be doing the fighting. The most likely scenario will be the local citizens taking the law into their own hands because the authorities treat Muslims with kid gloves as terrorists from within their community attack Australia.

    Political leadership will praise the Religion of Peace while demonising those fighting it.

  125. forcing them to modernise (no hijabs, no special schools, no special treatment re celebrations and prayers, refusal to legally accept any aspects of Sharia law, prosecutions enforcing women’s rights, compulsory new Koranic re-interpretations

    Here’s the thing, Lizzie:

    All those conditions – hijabs, special schools, legal protection, sharia out the wazoo – are currently available in any number of Islamic countries, worldwide.

    Muslims of any stripe may go and live in those countries, safe and happy and free to practise their religion according to the fullest dictates of their conscience.

    But they want to live here – with fast cars, KFC, television and jobs for their kids.

    So the solution is, as far as I can see, for them to go to Islamic countries and force them to INDUSTRIALISE, not modernise.

  126. jupes

    Mr Abbott said while it was not Australia’s intention to get caught up in unwinnable wars, he would keep talking to partners and allies about how to be useful.

    This bullshit about unwinnable wars has got to stop.

    If any war is winnable it is a war between IS and the US. There is no need to occupy or govern the country. The US just needs to invade Northern Iraq, kill every IS terrorist and then depart with a short message to the Iraqi government to try a bit harder to look after their country this time.

    Should take a couple of weeks tops.

  127. notafan

    with fast cars, KFC, television and jobs for their kids

    And welfare, welfare and welfare
    and the protection of our legal system (when it suits them) which doesn’t involve getting a hand cut off if they steal something or getting stoned to death if they commit adultery .

  128. notafan

    At the moment the guys with air support are going to be the winners in the short term
    If IS get access to planes or Iran’s nukes; well that might change.

  129. and the protection of our legal system (when it suits them) which doesn’t involve getting a hand cut off if they steal something or getting stoned to death if they commit adultery .

    But … but … that’s SHARIA law you’re talking about, notafan. You know, the wonderful, wise, enlightened system they want to introduce here.

  130. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Modernisation is the cultural side of industrialization, Philippa. It is, however, hard to industrialise in a society that is not modernizing. The Meiji in Japan recognized this very much by forcing modernization as a prelude to, or coterminous with, a swift industrialization in the nineteenth century. Islamic countries will stick to medievalism – in family relationships, women’s position in society, modes of conducting finance, business and commerce, and in their general culture – for as long as they resist change due to their religious precepts. That is precisely why Muslims ambitious for all of the toys and joys of the modern industrial world flock to our Western countries. They know they have no hope of gaining these things in their own pernicious economic and social systems. Concomitant to their ambitions though, they bring their medievalism with them, in a raging contradiction to the values that make our societies work, and that have allowed our societies to economically and socially flourish.

  131. mizaris

    This Islamist trash has to be eradicated from our society and it is no holds-barred. Maybe there are too many isolated in ivory towers; that this is some sort of esoteric debate? Well it’s real to those living near the members of this Fifth Column. It was clear to some of us by the time ofBEFORE 911.

    +1 FIFY.

    And all the while we put up with APPEASERS who allow the crimes to become worse and worse.

  132. mizaris

    Should take a couple of weeks tops.

    And of course O’Bummer is the man for the job/sarc!!!!! Fvcking appeaser.

  133. notafan

    It isn’t medieval, it’s 1400 years of being anti commerce, anti trade, anti productive as islam is based on a philosophy of land and sea piracy, enslavement and taxing of kafirs others.
    How can the Ummah change the banking systems proscribed in the holy books without rejecting the holy books?
    What happens when no-one wants their oil any more?

  134. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    We have to act like the Meiji, and force (nicely :) ) the Medievalists here to adapt and change and hope that change cascades back to the original Muslim countries. A slow process that will take a long time.

  135. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    What happens when no-one wants their oil any more?

    Mmmm. I love the smell of shale oil in the morning. With just a whiff of LP gas.

    Those Saudi-funded mosques can decay for lack of maintenance money, and our newly modernised Muslims can go get a job.

    Well, I always was an optimist.

  136. cohenite

    These figures are … inconvenient A Lurker. Yours too Cohenite.

    I agree, the world population of muslims is not 150 million but 1.5 billion.

    The best analysis of the Koran is by Sam Harris, which even Aristogeiton concedes. The Koran is NOT a book of peace or tolerance. It is blueprint for military socialisation and domination.

    The nature of the Koran completely contradicts any argument that Islam’s brutality is a response to oppression by the West. By definition islam is aggressively hegemonic. The occurrence of occasional oases of sanity and civility within islam is a matter of human nature manifesting in spite of the Islamic regime.

    There is no doubt different degrees of islam largely due to the host culture; Indonesia and Malaysia are not as pugnacious and belligerent as the ME versions; but then again tell that to the families of the Bali bombing.

    Anyway the exception always proves the rule; the manic forms of islam currently on display in the world need to be nurtured and grown somewhere and that somewhere is within islam.

    A couple of questions to the Mr Tolerants.

    1 Name one Western host nation where islam is not causing any problems; not rioting, demanding sharia, enclaving, oppressing women etc.

    2 In that Western nation why isn’t islam causing any problems/

  137. .

    Philippa Martyr
    #1423797, posted on August 20, 2014 at 2:37 pm
    Do you feel like withdrawing your know nothing anti Catholic bashing, Glinda?

    Yeah, Glinda. Quit cutting in on Dot’s territory.

    Demarcation dispute! Down tools, brothers!

    More lies. Can people here be honest for once?

  138. Aristogeiton

    cohenite
    #1423888, posted on August 20, 2014 at 4:27 pm
    [...]
    The best analysis of the Koran is by Sam Harris, which even Aristogeiton concedes.

    Bullshit. I’ve only ever said he was a twit.

  139. jupes #1423865, posted on August 20, 2014 at 4:02 pm

    Mr Abbott said while it was not Australia’s intention to get caught up in unwinnable wars, he would keep talking to partners and allies about how to be useful.

    This bullshit about unwinnable wars has got to stop.

    Well said!

    I have heard this nonsense about wars being too important to be left to the generals all my life. Well, history tells us that it is too important to be left to cowards.

    If you cannot stomach what will, nay must be done in your name then look away until we are finished.

    If we win, you may congratulate yourselves for your courageous support for the war. If we lose you may condemn us.

    But understand we think nothing of you. You are contemptible.

  140. .

    Grigory

    Strangely enough, the strongest anti Islamic voices seem to be the least optimistic. Don’t they think the West can win?

  141. “I gather they are even vaguely pacifist, not on moral grounds but from an ingrained habit of belittling anything that concerns the great mass of their fellow men and from a dash of purely fashionable and literary communism.”

    C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  142. candy

    I would say there’s very little approval for any new war in Iraq right now, so Tony Abbott is choosing his words very carefully.

  143. cohenite

    Bullshit. I’ve only ever said he was a twit.

    Well, it seems you have no redeeming points.

  144. .

    candy
    #1423916, posted on August 20, 2014 at 4:49 pm
    I would say there’s very little approval for any new war in Iraq right now, so Tony Abbott is choosing his words very carefully.

    Candy

    I doubt there was approval for war in France in 1943, but they sure appreciated liberation and defeat of the Nazis.

  145. Matthew

    I am surprised at people that want to debate the minutae of Islamic theology. The only thing a person needs to know about Islam is that it is an alien religion that is going to change our lives (for the worst for us).

    Any solutions? Immigration restriction, perhaps?

  146. cohenite

    In other news about Australia’s capitulation to islam the head of ASIO, David Irvine describes islam as:

    one of the world’s great and enriching religions.” He has also loudly praised our successful multiculturalism and the efforts of leaders in the Muslim community in helping counter terrorism and has roundly criticised “Right wing nutters” as un-Australian for suggesting that immigration from Islamic countries be limited.

    But Mr Irvine doesn’t stop there; he suggests that, “some of those home-grown Muslims who travel over to Islamic hotspots, may not have gone with extremist intentions but were motivated instead by a wish to help other Muslims or live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle

  147. notafan

    Christianity will prevail (I don’t mean in a Crusader type way) it might not be via the West but Asia that crushes the territorian ambitions of the ummah. If Islam gets Europe they will simply trash it.
    The suffering of all caught up in war makes me despondent, and the persecution and murder of unarmed civilians for being the wrong kind of human is particularly hard to bear.

  148. candy

    I doubt there was approval for war in France in 1943, but they sure appreciated liberation and defeat of the Nazis.

    I think Dot that there might be a difficulty in getting it understood that a “war” to eridicate IS is quite
    different to the war in Iraq and its reasons (geopolitical reasons I think it’s called?)/ the collateral damage, etc etc, even though it seems quite clear to me it’s a different kettle of fish.

  149. mareeS

    Talking about islam is beyond boring.

    One word says it: Submit. End of sentence, end of paragraph, end of story.

    End of history.

    My family is much more interesting than the Ummah, as it includes, catholics, protestants, jews, hare krishnas, a sich, all living in a peaceful family.

    We’re waiting for a muslim to join the flock, but they don’t seem to have much desire to marry in.

  150. .

    The head of ASIO, David Irvine describes Islam as:

    One of the world’s great and enriching religions.” He has also loudly praised our successful multiculturalism and the efforts of leaders in the Muslim community in helping counter terrorism and has roundly criticised “Right wing nutters” as un-Australian for suggesting that immigration from Islamic countries be limited.

    But Mr Irvine doesn’t stop there; he suggests that, “some of those home-grown Muslims who travel over to Islamic hotspots, may not have gone with extremist intentions but were motivated instead by a wish to help other Muslims or live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle

    A man who knows what he is talking about. Some sage advice.

  151. .

    Don’t be silly candy.

    Iraq is mostly Shiia and ISIS consider them as mortal enemies.

    Of course Iraqis want liberation. ISIS will be much worse than Saddam’s rule.

  152. notafan

    live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle

    that would be the same as mohamed then ?

  153. jupes

    I have heard this nonsense about wars being too important to be left to the generals all my life.

    Well these days that is probably true. The modern general has far more important things to worry about than mere war. This for example.

  154. cohenite

    More entertainment from islam as woman is tied between 2 cars and torn apart.

    That used to be a favourite of the Roman Empire in its decadent stages; well not cars but 2 bulls.

    The reality of the minority of muslims will, as it travels the globe via facebook and other media, either immunise the sensibilities of the West or galvanise it. Given some of the comments here that is a 50/50 call.

    A man who knows what he is talking about. Some sage advice.

    Dot, aka David Irvine, takes the piss in the modern form a la Todd Carney.

  155. Matt

    or live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle

    You don’t say.

  156. jupes

    One of the world’s great and enriching religions.” He has also loudly praised our successful multiculturalism and the efforts of leaders in the Muslim community in helping counter terrorism and has roundly criticised “Right wing nutters” as un-Australian for suggesting that immigration from Islamic countries be limited.

    “Great and enriching religions” FMD. What an idiot.

    This is exactly what I was talking about in my post at 3:54 pm.

    It will surprise no one that Irvine is a career diplomat who is also the godfather of Kevin Rudd’s son. With defence and security leaders like Morrison and Irvine – let alone the polical leadership – is it any wonder people are pessimistic about the outcome of further Islamic immigration into this country.

  157. .

    I don’t agree with Irvine’s left wing policies but he has run ASIO (and ASIS) well.

    We are, in part to his management and analysis, a safe country free from terrorism.

    He has given sage advice and as a Howard appointee to the highest levels of intelligence (2003 as Director General of ASIS), proven that he is no soft touch or useless idiot.

    His words are wise and miscreants ought to listen to him given his enviable track record, compared to their unhinged and baseless paranoia.

    Don’t be scared.

  158. Matthew

    I don’t agree with Irvine’s left wing policies but he has run ASIO (and ASIS) well.

    There is no way that you have the inside knowledge that would allow you to make that assessment.

  159. cohenite

    their unhinged and baseless paranoia.

    My paranoia is neither unhinged or baseless. Your faith is surreal though.

  160. notafan

    their unhinged and baseless paranoia.

    that is not a rational argument given the world we can see right now, 22 convicted terrorists in Australia when one is too many.
    No, Islam doesn’t represent a threat at all,
    Wow, tell that to the family of the murdered Jewish children in Toulouse and the families of the people murdered in Brussels by a returned jihadist.
    We can’t carry a bottle of water or a pair of nail clippers onto a plane because of unhinged and baseless paranoia?
    it’s not most muslims I am concerned about it’s islam and what it is when people adhere to it as it meant to be.

  161. incoherent rambler

    I don’t agree with Irvine’s left wing policies but he has run ASIO (and ASIS) well.

    Well, this insider says he has been poorly suited to the roles.

  162. cohenite

    I suppose dot and others endorse Jonathan Green’s approach to islam:

    Our best defence is of course our cultured reason. Our tolerance. Our audacious confidence in the fundamental goodness of others. Maybe even our sense of humour.

    Fuck me: cultured reason; I’m fucking defenceless then.

  163. outsider

    It is interesting to look even superficially at different countries’ Muslim control methodology.
    In China it was surprising to see the recent spate of Islamic violence because the Uyghurs have been held in check successfully in the past, with traditional forms of control such as informers, police actions to repress shows of strength on the street, incarceration, intimidation.

    In India communal violence is very effective, together with rising Hindu nationalism. The Hindus are excitable and fire up fast if you start burning their homes in their own country. If 9/11 had happened in either nation, tens of thousands may have died in the aftermath, more likely than not. The targetting of the weak, leftist-dominated West is no accident, with its ‘vulnerable to compromise’ institutions.

  164. .

    You can’t argue with results. Under his leadership, we have become safer from terrorism.

    He knows an awful lot about the topic, but you dismiss him out of hand because it is unsettling to your belief set.

  165. dan

    If IS get access to planes or Iran’s nukes; well that might change.

    That makes no sense for multiple reasons

    We can’t carry a bottle of water or a pair of nail clippers onto a plane because of unhinged and baseless paranoia?

    Absolutely

    As opposed to the ones that have? Bali bombing x2, Australian Embassy bombing, Marriot Hotel bombing x 2, Ritz-Carlton Hotel bombing.

    Right…in a country of 250 million people, over fifteen years. Each one a tragedy, and you would want security precautions at your hotel, but there is a difference between security awareness and blind panic.

  166. dan

    In India communal violence is very effective, together with rising Hindu nationalism

    Oh yes, communal violence really solved the problem after the Godhra incident.
    Ridiculous.

  167. John of Mel

    but there is a difference between security awareness and blind panic.

    So, let’s not panic and bomb Islamic countries into oblivion, but simply as a matter of precaution (security awareness) ban Muslim immigration.

  168. tomix

    Is David Irvine the bloke whose other passion is Javanese penis puppetry- or is that shadow puppetry? Whatever. Crazy guy.

  169. Notafan

    Is have, probably highly unrealistic ambitions to extend into Iran so in the agreed unlikely event they did they would have access to both.
    I suppose Israelis are paranoid as well?

  170. Notafan

    Who is blindly panicking?
    Having a muslim minority placed a large security cost on Australia.
    It would be interesting to know if muslim immigration costs Australian taxpayers far more than the contribution they make.

  171. Glinda

    That used to be a favourite of the Roman Empire in its decadent stages; well not cars but 2 bulls.

    Was a game Muhammad liked to play too. He tied Umm Qirfa’s legs to two camels and split her in two. Her crime? Criticizing Muhammad.

  172. cohenite

    It would be interesting to know if muslim immigration costs Australian taxpayers far more than the contribution they make.

    Islam, contribution: lol, oxymoron of the thread.

  173. Mater

    Under his leadership, we have become safer from terrorism.

    Hang on, Dot. From the other thread.

    Furthermore I would not hazard a guess if terrorism threats were growing or not unless I was in the employ of the AFP or ASIO.

    Are you such an employee?

  174. John Williams

    Small point but…
    All media outlets seem to focus on the scumbag executioner being British and/or speaking with a British accent.
    I do not claim to be a linguistics expert but I do have decades of experience in the Middle East and surrounding areas.
    Difficult to be sure because of the scarf muffling the voice but my guess is North Africa, but definitely not native British.
    This would be next to irrelevant except that much of the media…with zero evidence…seem overly keen for the scumbag to be British merely because he is speaking English.
    Why ?

  175. jupes

    His words are wise

    Yeah right. Here you go, some quotes:

    (Islam is) One of the world’s great and enriching religions …

    LOL. Well I suppose it is enriching IS right now. But tell us more Oh Wise One.

    Some of those home-grown Muslims who travel over to Islamic hotspots, may not have gone with extremist intentions but were motivated instead by a wish to help other Muslims …

    Hahahahahaha. How gullible is this twit?

    … or live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle.

    I actually agree with Dot’s guru here. Living a truly Islamic lifestyle is exactly what Sharouf and Elomar are doing.

    In my experience the overall leadership of the community of Muslim Australians in dealing with these issues, always in their own quiet way, has been outstanding.

    Outstanding! Wow. 150 Australian terrorists join IS. An unknown number of potential terrorists have their passports cancelled so they can’t join IS. Meanwhile about 90 Muslims have enlisted in the ADF. So the majority of Australian Muslims who want to enlist in the profession of arms, choose fighting for Islam over fighting for Australia despite the outstanding leadership of the Muslim community. What does that say about Islam?

    The Australian Muslim community has made, and will continue to make, its own valuable contributions to our national character, our national livelihood, our national security and to our national cohesion.

    Valuable! What, even after you consider the cost to moniter the terrorists, lock up the criminals and pay the unemployed? Maybe Dot’s guru is talking about falafels.

    We are not fighting Islam, in Australia or anywhere else.

    True. However if clowns like Irvine remain in influencial positions then we soon will be.

  176. john constantine

    ‘Petrodollar Bill’ shorten can’t go to the urinal alone,as he needs to poll a focus group to help him decide what bit is wart, and what bit is helmet.

    Petrodollar bill has no problem deciding on the palestine/israel issue though, the chameleon lizard is even now able to fund-raise from both sides, what skill, what a man, just don’t stand too close to him at the urinal, or he will piss a fork on your shoes.

  177. Dan

    but there is a difference between security awareness and blind panic.

    So, let’s not panic and bomb Islamic countries into oblivion, but simply as a matter of precaution (security awareness) ban Muslim immigration.

    I would ban any immigration unlikely to add much to our society. I would encourage Christian refugees from the ME and try to get Jewish French emigrants.

  178. jupes

    Right…in a country of 250 million people, over fifteen thirteen years. Each one a tragedy, and you would want security precautions at your hotel, but there is a difference between security awareness and blind panic.

    Sure and there is also a difference between an Islamic society and a Western society.

    Over four million Indonesians live in Aceh under Sharia Law, which includes death by stoning. They do this by choice.

  179. cohenite

    This is what islam needs; Kurdish women gearing up to fight the isis scum.

  180. cohenite

    Sorry, forgot the link; here.

  181. Fisky

    one of the world’s great and enriching religions

    I wish people who say that would kindly name one or two countries that Islam has enriched. Are there any? To take an example, does anyone seriously think Egypt would be worse off if it were 90% Coptic and 10% Muslim instead of the other way round?

  182. Mk50 of Brisbane, Henchman to the VRWC

    cohenite:

    Thanks Steve; you are correct; however this is not a civilisational war; islam is not a civilization, nor is it a religion. So what is islam?

    A conquest ideology indistinguishable from national socialism.

    I thought everyone knew this!?

  183. cohenite

    A conquest ideology indistinguishable from national socialism.

    Except socialism was not known for lopping off heads, kidnapping women and selling them as slaves [who the fuck are they selling them to?], raping kids; mass executions is a pretty stock feature of such crap social systems but islam edges the other out for sheer fucking barbarity.

  184. .

    Mater
    #1424112, posted on August 20, 2014 at 7:35 pm
    Under his leadership, we have become safer from terrorism.

    Hang on, Dot. From the other thread.

    Furthermore I would not hazard a guess if terrorism threats were growing or not unless I was in the employ of the AFP or ASIO.

    Are you such an employee?

    Let me clarify.

    Since he has been at the head of ASIS and ASIO, terrorism against Australians has declined. This is indisputable.

    I am not going to guess if more or less threats are emerging now over thew last few years as some people here think so. None of us have access to this intelligence. If they are, ASIO has, under his leadership, nipped them in the bud.

    Other prefer to parse and interject with bullshit against the above facts and irrefutably true corollaries.

    His judgment ought to be trusted over others whom are paranoid not based in any real world facts and have the inability to understand all Muslims do not follow Salafism or worse.

  185. nilk

    Strangely enough, the strongest anti Islamic voices seem to be the least optimistic. Don’t they think the West can win?

    Dot, the West can win, but to do so it would have to “Cry ‘havoc!’ And let slip the dogs of war.”

    I don’t see any of the current crop of pantywaists in positions of leadership having the spine necessary to do that. They might offend people who have a tendency to follow through on threats of violence. Can’t have that now, it might go to VCAT.

  186. nilk

    This would be next to irrelevant except that much of the media…with zero evidence…seem overly keen for the scumbag to be British merely because he is speaking English.
    Why ?

    So the West can be blamed for radicalising the poor oppressed muslims living in Dar ul Harb.

  187. .

    Don’t worry, Obama won’t last forever. He’s term limited, thank Jupiter.

  188. jupes

    Don’t worry, Obama won’t last forever.

    Nor will Irvine. The gullible twit only has another month in the job. Thank goodness.

  189. cohenite

    Irvine is a close friend of Rudd; Irvine says:

    After five years in the job, my advice remains that the Australian public should not become paranoid and jump at the shadows of immediate, impending or inevitable catastrophe.

    “The threat of terrorism will be with us for some time but it must not be allowed to dominate our lives. We should maintain our awareness, use the anti-terrorist hotline if necessary and, above all, place our trust in Australian governments to be vigilant on our behalf

    LOL. The terrorist hotline. Terrifying.

  190. .

    Mmyes the gullible twit has only been at the head of ASIS or ASIO for 11 years, a Howard appointee, with an excellent professional record.

  191. jupes

    None of us have access to this intelligence.

    I’ll give you a tip that Irvine won’t.

    The more Muslims, the more attacks on synagogues and Jews. That is indisputable.

    If you want Jews attacked in your country all you need to do is invite Muslims to live there.

  192. Combine Dave

    “some of those home-grown Muslims who travel over to Islamic hotspots, may not have gone with extremist intentions but were motivated instead by a wish to help other Muslims or live what they believe to be a truly Islamic lifestyle

    What an incompetent ass clown. This is the man in charge of our security? Eager to cast blame on ‘right wing nutters’ while giving the Islamic State a pass.

    A ride on an orange life boat with some of his ‘enriching’ pals from West Sydney/North Melb should sort this retard out.

  193. cohenite

    a Howard appointee

    So what? Howard effectively disarmed Australia and facilitated AGW. Fuckwit.

  194. Mater

    Dot,
    I take your point. However, London experience indicates that it is unlikely they will see it coming. MI5 is far more experienced in such matters, and they weren’t able to pick it.
    Anecdotal evidence shows a rising anti-west sentiment (protests, etc) and ‘Australians’ are leaving our shores to fight religious wars.
    He may have done a good job, I don’t know, but I’m far from convinced that the authorities are completely on top of the threats. A long term strategy needs to be considered, especially if things escalate overseas.

  195. Indigo

    A lot of people seem to be labouring on the illusion and propaganda that Islam is a religion of peace. Nothing could be further from the truth. Founded by a narcissistic schizophrenic, Islam was spread by the sword, much as ISIS is emulating today.

    http://infidelsarecool.com/2006/12/overwhelming-evidence-of-i/

    The text of the Koran is undeniable. How can you be Muslim and still support our Constitution?

    by Infidelesto on December 28, 2006 ·

    In Islam, all non-Muslims are called unbelievers or infidels. The treatment of the infidels in Islam is divided into two categories. The polytheists, pagans, idolaters and heathens have the choice of converting to Islam or suffer death. The Jews and Christians, whom the Koran calls people of the book, can retain their religion but on the sufferance of accepting humiliation and subjugation to Islam and payment of Jizyah (poll-tax) to the Islamic rulers [For more detail read this article: Unfettered Religious Freedom in Islam – A Fact or Fiction? - by Alamgir Hussain].

    Now, let us have a closer look at what the Koran says about the infidels:-

    - Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
    - Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
    - When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
    - Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
    - Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
    - The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
    - Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
    - The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
    - Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
    (22:19)
    - Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
    - The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
    - Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
    - Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
    - Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

    The Qur’an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur’an.

    Good luck with getting these people on your team.

  196. Percy

    “The threat of terrorism will be with us for some time but it must not be allowed to dominate our lives. We should maintain and increase our awareness personal armouries use the anti-terrorist hotline if necessary and above all, place our trust in Australian governments to be vigilant on our behalf

    There we go.

  197. .

    I can’t believe you would say Irvine (given his position) doesn’t have access to recent trends on emerging terrorist threats but you know, without evidence the threat is rising.

    You just believe whatever the hell you like.

  198. cohenite

    You just believe whatever the hell you like.

    No. I listen to what muslims are saying and what they are doing. You aren’t doing that.

  199. .

    A Howard appointee who is a close friend of Rudd.

    I know you have got nothing when you have to change the blame by association you are trying on.

    Terrorism against Australians declined during his tenure.

    He knows what he is talking about yet you are attacking him personally because you don’t like his beliefs. He has helped stop terrorism without resorting to extremist policies like ending immigration, which has been suggested here by paranoid and unhinged commenters, who have also agitated to ban Islam, and who hate freedom.

  200. Notafan

    I am grateful that no terrorist has been successful in Australia but would be very surprised if the number of attempts and potential terrorists is rising not declining.
    Many years ago I read an article comparing the success of Lebanese maronites and muslims, maronites were said to be doing far better than muslims.
    I doubt such an article would be published today.
    I’m also sure that muslims in Australia place a significant net cost on the Australian community, even on a simple tax to welfare ratio.

  201. cohenite

    Terrorism against Australians declined during his tenure.

    150 Australian citizens [sic] currently in Northern Iraq; oh yes, quite a decline.

  202. Mater

    I can’t believe you would say Irvine (given his position) doesn’t have access to recent trends on emerging terrorist threats but you know, without evidence the threat is rising.

    I believe that he has access to the most recent information (that which is known) but I also know that he is part of the cadre of ‘Team Australia’ and can’t say anything different.

  203. cohenite

    And how clever ASIO and related bodies were to let those 150 go, some on their relative’s passports. I feel so fucking safe.

    Earth to dot, how is the fucking dark side of the Moon?

  204. .

    cohenite
    #1424223, posted on August 20, 2014 at 9:05 pm
    Terrorism against Australians declined during his tenure.

    150 Australian citizens [sic] currently in Northern Iraq; oh yes, quite a decline.

    They are now fair game for USAF and USN. You want deportation and you get it, and then you complain.

  205. Luke

    Not long to go now before Dot and Sinc will get to find out just how moderate their moderate muslims really are. People seem to forget that the Nazis party only had a small crowd of members outside of Germany, and not large minorities in most Western nations. Any Western nation that finally wakes up and declares war on the real problem will quickly find itself fighting a civil war as well. Add to that that there are no Churchills leading any of the Western Countries these days. It’s wall to wall Chamberlians now. What these barbarians in the desert have realised is that the West has lost its identity, and they intend to fill that void.

    Oh BTW I take it Sinc and Dot your version of moderate means anyone not actively waging jihad. Do you include those who actively support the imposition of Shiria law? How about those who contribute to female genital mutilation? Maybe those who support the segregation of boys and girls at school, with the girls being exclude from prays and those menstruating being excluded altogether? How about those who refuse to recognise host countries laws because it conflicts with their faith, including laws about domestic abuse, sexual assault and marriage (only 1 wife of legal age)? How bout those who block the use of public spaces like they do in Paris? Or perhaps those who riot and create no go zones like they do in France, Holland and Sweden? Keep listing through the kind things you think make a modern fair and peaceful State. The more you list, the more moderates you’ll find you have to cross off your count.

  206. .

    Any Western nation that finally wakes up and declares war on the real problem will quickly find itself fighting a civil war as well.

    What civil war happened in the US when they declared war on the Taliban?

    Check your premises.

  207. cohenite

    What civil war happened in the US when they declared war on the Taliban?

    Christ, you are obtuse; what the fuck is this.

  208. Roger

    there are no Churchills leading any of the Western Countries these days.

    That reminded me of Churchill’s views on Islam, formed by his personal encounters with it in the the Sudan:

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
    Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia
    in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many
    countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
    of commerce and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the
    Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and
    refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan
    law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as
    a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the
    faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyzes the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising
    fearless warriors at every step, and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the
    strong arms of science, the science against which it (Islam) has vainly struggled,
    the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”

    Sir Winston Churchill; “The River War”, first edition, Volume II, pages 248-250, Longmans, Green & Company, 1899.

  209. Oh come on

    Not so. They can be a serious irritant to us by radicalizing our local populations into terrorist activities and thus disrupting our commerce, trade and leisure.

    Right, they can – at worst – be a serious irritant. If we decide to do a number on them, their recruitment drive will grind to a halt. Once the wannabe jihadis come to realise that martyrdom is little more than being ground into mincemeat in the desert sands and then having your pulverised remains picked over by wild animals, they won’t be nearly as keen to partake.

    ISIS are a paper tiger. They better hope they don’t make us too mad.

  210. dan

    ISIS are a paper tiger. They better hope they don’t make us too mad.

    I just wish we would get on with it…and surely fighting ISIS could bring China, Russia and the US together in one big friendly group hug.

  211. Oh come on

    I was going to mention that if ISIS got bad enough, we could just make it clear to the Russians that we wouldn’t be terribly concerned if they liquidated Assad’s opponents.

    Assad is a prick but he’s a known quantity. I suspect everyone in the region would prefer him over ISIS.

  212. Oh come on

    If ISIS is the harvest from the Arab Spring, then we need to ensure Winter never breaks again.

  213. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Poor James Foley, being forced to learn and repeat those horrible words – no doubt having been promised that if he did so he might be spared. The hideous and learned words contained the Islamic mindset: can you imagine a man from any non-Islamic culture even beginning to use the word ‘compensation’ in a statement about his death? That is a purely 7th Century concept of a ‘blood price’ owed. It fits into the same genre as head-hunting. Tribal, backward and stupid.

    What a disgusting load of 7th Century ideas and ideals this religion contains. Time it changed.

  214. Matthew

    Check your premises.

    Most people here are replying to you in the premise that you have a low IQ and have mistook yourself for Ayn Rand. A is A.

  215. Matthew

    Jihadist violence won’t work in Australia. Even crippled by political correctness the state will act to protect itself. Therefore I don’t see a great risk of overt and sustained jihadists violence over the short term.

    More likely we will see more of what we see now. For example demands to prohibit blasphemy of Mohammed. More Islamic ‘education’ and so on.

    As demographics change Muslims will get more aggressive in their demands, and will have enough power in parliament to push them through.

    A 30% Muslim population just about guarantees violent jihad. We have a choice. People like the head of ASIO do Australians a disservice by lying about, or being ignorant of, the situation that Australia finds itself in.

  216. Alfonso

    Foley should have armed himself, with a plan to fight to the death rather than be taken by ISIS.
    Beats dying on your knees on You Tube.

  217. What civil war happened in the US when they declared war on the Taliban?

    Christ, you are obtuse; what the fuck is this.

    The Afghanistan war was in response to 9-11, no the other way around.

  218. Alexis

    For the first time in his career Obama is right about something.

    ISIS would like nothing better than for the US to treat this as an act of war by a powerful enemy and invade.

    They should continue drone strikes and air strikes aggressively but leave it at that. Stretched supply lines mean local fighters might be able to reach a stalemate or advance.

  219. Alexis

    A 30% Muslim population just about guarantees violent jihad.

    I know this govt doesn’t listen to anyone but we should share that sentiment with your local MP.

  220. Oh come on

    Foley should have armed himself, with a plan to fight to the death rather than be taken by ISIS.
    Beats dying on your knees on You Tube

    The fool. I’m sure you’d know exactly what to do were you in Foley’s shoes and not opining from behind a computer monitor. You’d coolly put John Rambo to shame, no doubt.

  221. notafan

    Foley was taken by ‘moderates’ he was reported to have been taken by the Syrian Army too. IS may have only had him for a short time. Don’t think he was in a position to arm himself.
    No doubt IS fed him lies to get him to speak on camera as the only people being killed by the US in Iraq are IS operatives.
    Evil people do evil things.

  222. .

    A 30% Muslim population just about guarantees violent jihad.

    Matthew – you are spouting utter shit.

    A is A.

  223. Frederic

    Foley should have armed himself, with a plan to fight to the death rather than be taken by ISIS.
    Beats dying on your knees on You Tube

    Or get shot and die of sepsis two weeks later rather than at least dying in a matter of seconds as he did.

  224. Oh come on

    He may have been told that the other captive would be beheaded if he didn’t play ball. He may have been brainwashed. We don’t know. We’ve never been in that situation before. Let’s not presume to advise the deceased of what he should have done.

  225. Alfonso

    Indeed, “the fool”.

    Now wait for the revelation that Foley was an activist and apologist for the “rebels” fighting Assad….see A lQ and ISIS. A failure in communication perhaps?

  226. Oh come on

    Now wait for the revelation that Foley was an activist and apologist for the “rebels” fighting Assad….see A lQ and ISIS. A failure in communication perhaps?

    Don’t worry, Alfonso. I’m sure at least someone who’s reading will think you’re butch.

  227. sdfc

    Yeah Rambonso would have shown them what for.

  228. Fisky

    Anyone seen the film 300 yet? That would totally have been Alphonso if those ISIS punks tried to take him, except in his sequel it’s gonna be “1″ not 300.

  229. Oh come on

    Too right sdfc and fisky. In fact, Rambo’s probably going to head over there with the express intent of being kidnapped by ISIS just so he can single-handedly kick every single ISIS fighter’s arse on Youtube. He’ll finish up by giving al-Baghdadi the most epic wedgie ever seen and make him run through Raqqa in his undies.

  230. Fisky

    How bout those Jews going meekly to the gas chambers eh? Pretty poor showing if you ask me.

  231. Tiny Dancer

    The whole thing smacked of showbiz. Far too polished. The dialogue was being read. I reckon they threatened his family to get his cooperation and he’d been through it before in practice and didn’t know it was this time. In fact it could have been a number of shots from different occasions spliced together.

  232. Mater

    I don’t know what I would (or could) have done in Foley’s position. I doubt anyone really does. However to be fair to Alfonso, I would much prefer the Italian’s legacy.

    ‘I’ll show you how an Italian dies’

  233. Oh come on

    I think we all do, Mater. However, most of us are self-aware enough to realise that we couldn’t confidently predict what we’d do in Foley’s situation, and even those that aren’t nevertheless have enough decorum to refrain from lecturing Foley’s corpse over his insufficiently defiant death. After all, none of us have (mercifully) been there.

  234. Leigh Lowe

    If Foley had one shortcoming it might have been a touch of the “naive Green” syndrome.

    Could be any day now … the sudden indiscriminate smack of a terrorist attack.
    Our best defence is of course our cultured reason. Our tolerance. Our audacious confidence in the fundamental goodness of others.

    A belief that he could reason with anyone, and they would immediately be persuaded by his case and lay down their weapons.

  235. Alfonso

    ‘How bout those Jews going meekly to the gas chambers eh? Pretty poor showing if you ask me.’

    Indeed, pathetic lack of initiative, learned helplessness at its peak.

  236. notafan

    One of Foley’s fellow hostages has mentioned that Foley was subject to a lot of beatings, mock executions (including crucificion) and other stuff he wouldn’t detail to spare Foley’s family.
    He may well have been completely broken. He mentioned attacks on Iraq as though the victims were innocent civilians rather than IS reavers. Who knows what they told him?
    RIP all IS victims.

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