“No faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

Between rounds of golf, these were President Obama’s remarks on the execution of journalist James Foley by Islamic State:

Today, the entire world is appalled by the brutal murder of Jim Foley by the terrorist group ISIL. Jim was a journalist, a son, a brother and a friend. He reported from difficult and dangerous places, bearing witness to the lives of people a world away.

He was taken hostage nearly two years ago in Syria, and he was courageously reporting at the time on the conflict there. Jim was taken from us in an act of violence that shocked the conscience of the entire world. He was 40 years old, one of five siblings, the son of a mom and dad who worked tirelessly for his release. Earlier today, I spoke to the Foleys and told them that we are all heartbroken at their loss and join them in honoring Jim and all that he did.

Now, Jim Foley’s life stands in stark contrast to his killers. Let’s be clear about ISIL. They have rampaged across cities and villages killing innocent, unarmed civilians in cowardly acts of violence. They abduct women and children and subject them to torture and rape and slavery. They have murdered Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, by the thousands. They target Christians and religious minorities, driving them from their homes, murdering them when they can, for no other reason than they practice a different religion.

They declared their ambition to commit genocide against an ancient people. So ISIL speaks for no religion. Their victims are overwhelmingly Muslim, and no faith teaches people to massacre innocents. No just god would stand for what they did yesterday and what they do every single day. ISIL has no ideology of any value to human beings. Their ideology is bankrupt. They may claim out of expediency that they are at war with the United States or the West, but the fact is they terrorize their neighbors and offer them nothing but an endless slavery to their empty vision and the collapse of any definition of civilized behavior.

Words are his specialty. Actions not so much.

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210 Responses to “No faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

  1. Token

    Scott Johnson at Powerline says all that needs to be said:

    President Obama gave a statement this afternoon on the beheading of James Foley by devotees of the Islamic State yesterday. Obama referred to him throughout as “Jim Foley” and “Jim,” seeking for some reason to convey the impression that he was on intimate terms with him, although I would like to think he would have been a little more upset than he was if he had been.

  2. Ant

    “….and now it’s back to Maaarrfa’s Vineyard for the rest of the holidays. It’s so fab to be me.”

  3. Bear Necessities

    A few more drone strikes here and their coming up.

    Instead he should be going after the bankers of ISIL, the Sunni’s that reside in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait etc.

    Make them feel “uncomfortable” anywhere they transact business or pleasure in the world.

  4. Alfonso

    “no faith teaches people to massacre innocents.”

    Obama should know his Koran better than that…..that’s a straight up lie.
    “The Koran and Hadiths instruct believers to kill infidels, Jews, apostates, homosexuals and non compliant women.The references are numerous.”

  5. Ant

    Yes, Token, the fabulous Obama repeatedly referred to his slaughtered Libyan ambassador as “Chris” in 2012.

    Pity he didn’t give a fat rat’s arse about him while he was still alive preferring instead to disappear overnight to prepare for his big shindig in Vegas the next day while some other Islamofacist butchers were sodomising him with their AK47s.

    But Obama cares for the “folks”, don’t you know?

  6. fhb

    Spot on Alfonso:

    “no faith teaches people to massacre innocents.”

    Obama should know his Koran better than that…..that’s a straight up lie.
    “The Koran and Hadiths instruct believers to kill infidels, Jews, apostates, homosexuals and non compliant women.The references are numerous.”

  7. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Talks a good talk, doesn’t he?

  8. Token

    In Europe the US taxpayers provide the defense forces & the local governments free ride so they can stir up anti American/Israel sentiment in the it bloated welfare states.

    By contrast in the Person Gulf the oil Emirates including Qatar free ride & use the savings to finance anti American/Israel sentiment & global terror.

  9. I am the Walrus, Koo Koo K'choo

    So ISIL speaks for no religion.

    More of the same denial of reality.

    I wonder just how many more skulls have to be added to the growing pile before the western world gets serious.

  10. Paul

    Talks a good talk, doesn’t he?

    That’s why he was selected for election. That’s all he had to do.

  11. john constantine

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-18/muslim-population-census-fears/2798462

    So australias demographic numbers depend on someone ticking a box on the census form. how could that go wrong.

  12. Bruce of Newcastle

    Instead he should be going after the bankers of ISIL, the Sunni’s that reside in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait etc.

    Saudi is getting alarmed that their kiddies are getting too feral for even their liking:

    Saudi Arabia and the Trouble with Terrorism


    Meanwhile, the kingdom’s highest religious body, the Council of Senior Scholars, announced it was establishing an interactive platform in which religious leaders will engage citizens to combat terrorist rhetoric aimed at luring youths into fighting abroad. The announcement came days after King Abdullah issued a rare public rebuke of the council for not doing enough to counter extremism.

    How very helpful are the pliable Council of Senior Scholars.

  13. Gab

    So ISIL speaks for no religion.

    ISIS or ISIL are no longer used by the barbarians themselves. They perfect to be known as The Islamic State, but yeah no religion involved at all. The deception is strong in Obuma.

  14. Words are his specialty.

    Let’s not get carried away. He almost certainly didn’t write that speech himself.

  15. A Lurker

    You know, if Obama is bored of being President then he should step down and let someone else ruin run the joint.

    Worst ever President in American history.

  16. Leo G

    ” no faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

    It’s merely a coincidence that thousands of recent incidents of ritual murder of innocents were undertaken by people who profess to be demonstrating adherence to a certain faith.

  17. ‘Let’s be clear’ in a political speech is always a giveaway. What follows those words are always a tactical missing of the point, an avoidance of the question, or an avoidance of action. Kevin Rudd’s sentences frequently began with ‘Let’s be clear’, for instance.

    In this case what is most clear is that Obama is going to continue to avoid doing anything about ISIS. (Probably the US can’t do anything, anyway).

  18. Baldrick

    So what did Bergdahl have that Foley didn’t?

    A shorter putt, an opportunity for a selfie, more twitter followers?

  19. Wozzup

    Oh he is a man of “action” all right…………This is how Obama treats his supposed ally Israel. in its fight against Islamic fundamentalism and aggression.

    This is how Obama shows he is a man of action.

    Just another weak piss-weak, peace-at-all-cost leftist.

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/state-department-confirms-new-review-on-arms-to-israel/

    Still if there is something good to come out of this recent ISIS barbarity in nearby Syria, it is that it is a wake up call for the West. Perhaps now the peace in our time President will be forced to act with resolution.

  20. dianeh

    What was Obama’s point?

    We already know that IS are a bunch of murderous thugs intent on murdering everyone who doesn’t adhere to their brand of Islam.

    Or did Obama think were people who thought they weren’t murderous thugs etc etc?

  21. Myrddin Seren

    “no faith teaches people to massacre innocents.”

    From Robert Spencer

    It ( the You-Know-What book ) also says that Muslims must fight against the “People of the Book” – Jews, Christians, and others who are considered to have received previous revelations from Allah – until they “pay the jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued” (9:29). That option of submission and subjugation, however, is not open to groups that have no written revelation that could qualify them for “People of the Book” status. Hence for the Yazidis, to convert or die are the only Qur’anic options open for them.

    The great scholar and expert on Islam ( family in Kenya and schooling in Indonesia, for example, must have provided some exposure ) is being disingenuous.

    Under Islam, the Yazidis aren’t even as low in the hierarchy as Christians and Jews. They are seen as idolators and devil worshipers and hence ‘not innocent’. This is another speech brought to you by the representatives of the Muslim Brotherhood apparently embedded through the US government.

    So the bit left out of this speech is – ‘but it is righteous to slaughter kuffir’.

    Fixed it for him……

  22. dianeh

    /Obama think were people /Obama think there were people /

  23. struth

    No it doesn’t speak for any religion. …….that’s why so many christians and buddists are leaving their home countries to join and fight with IS. ISLAMIC STATE………you lying cowardly piece of shit.
    I read the speech as………….yeah look hey one of our white guys got killed but you can’t blame islam.
    In no small way is Obummer responsible for this death as the Isamists percieve it as the time to strike while there is a weak preside t and a United states corrupted through their institutions by the left.

  24. Myrddin Seren

    Walk softly and carry a big stick

    A crack unit of female soldiers is on the trail of Islamic State killers who have captured 3,000 innocent women in Iraq.

    Now hundreds of women from the Turkish PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ party) have crossed into Iraq to help push the IS fighters out of the north of Iraq.

    They are striking fear into the hearts of the Jihadist thugs who believe if they are killed by a woman in battle they will not reach heaven.

    Don’t know if that last bit is true, because it is kind of hard to imagine women in battle when the You-Know-What book was being – ahem – revealed ?

    But the Kurdish women look pretty tough and plainly know that peace comes out of the barrel of a gun for them.

  25. Spongebob Steve Pants

    Obama gave free stuff to people. That is all it takes now and is the sole barometer of your election worthiness.

  26. Glinda

    Myrddin Seren, great post at 9:47. Encapsulated my thoughts exactly. Taqiyya…Obama does it so well.

  27. rickw

    Myrddin Seren, great post at 9:47!

    ”no faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

    A patently incorrect statement, there would seem to be just one.

  28. Chris M

    It all hinges on the meaning of ‘innocent’.

    In the Koran Christians and other non-Moslems are NOT regarded as innocent thus killing them is an entirely legitimate Koran-following practice.

  29. Chris M

    ^ Just to clarify I’m not supporting this depraved action of course. I believe the religion is demonically inspired and led.

  30. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    It all hinges on the meaning of ‘innocent’.

    That was my first reaction too. ISIS have no concept of ‘innocent’ unless it refers to Muslims of their particular brand of liking. Not even children are ‘innocents’ to these savages; there have been reports of children’s heads on poles in Mossul to strike fear into the hearts of all parents. They have also taken Koranic instructions to ‘crucify’ quite literally, and other barbarities have been emerging, and not only against men – such as burying women and children alive after a desultory random shooting. Obama’s use of the term ‘innocents’ is a sop to Muslim listeners, although the Koran uses the term in a reference to Muslims only (as I understand it) although it may also be a reference to judgements made under Sharia law… Let us please have that Saudi High Council come out and define ‘innocents’ in a civilized manner.

    Still waiting ….

  31. .

    You can be accommodating as I am and insist that some Muslims are reasonable, but to deny that ISIS are not pushing a militant form of Islam which spreads the faith by the sword is ridiculous.

  32. notafan

    Notice in the linked pic of the PKK article the IS reavers are wearing runners.
    Killed by a woman is extra bad, just like LOTR. It really is a fantasy world of ginns and jennah for committing acts of depravity.
    A heaven of wine women and young boys. That Allah has some odd ideas.

  33. Vicki

    In these few words, Obama has shown how little he understands about Islam and its history, or the current jihardis.

    Far from garnering no approval from the rest of the world, IS (he can’t even keep abreast of the evolution of the group, calling it ISIL) is attracting not only foreign Islamic extremists, it is gathering jihardis from splinter groups from all over the Middle East and northern Africa. Nor does he appear to understand the importance of the declaration of the Caliphate to devout Muslims who have been waiting for the “Mahdi” – the 12th imam who, it is believed, will deliver Muslims from the control of infidels and restore Muslims as the rightful (and “righteous”) rulers of the world.

    This is not just antiquated eschatology. The symbolism, in the return to ancient practices and expression, is seen again and again in the behaviour of the jihardis. If it is combined with modern IT, is is all the more dangerous in its appeal to Muslim youth.

    There are military analysts in the USA & elsewhere who have warned the White House about all of this. In fact, these guys are full of foreboding on their personal twitter accounts. But I somehow doubt whether they will ever get this through to this arrogant President whose worldview is so limited.

  34. incoherent rambler

    I am sure IS will note the presidents speech and will immediately cease and desist from further atrocity.
    A few words from the pres will have them all retreating and running for cover.

  35. notafan

    I am sure IS will note the presidents speech and will immediately cease and desist from further atrocity.

    Of course they will look how they immediately ceased committing actrocities after the UN Security Council waggled it’s fingers at them.
    The Saudis want the caliphate to emerge using the tortoise method whereas IS is going for the rabbit and might undo all the Saudi’s good work to date.
    They must be very cross.

  36. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    it is kind of hard to imagine women in battle when the You-Know-What book was being – ahem – revealed ?

    In 7th Century tribal fighting ‘battles’ were often skirmishes, snatch and grab raids, often for female slaves. Certainly in Celtic and Germanic cultures of that time, women fought. The Romans met shrieking female priests in their attack on Anglesey in the first century AD; Boudicca’s army had plenty of women in wagons at the trail end behind the warriors and they fought and/or killed themselves and their children rather than be taken into slavery (there are some grisly Roman accounts of this).

    In warrior death cult cultures the rewards are always for the fighters; women protect their honour, for the warriors, for the lineage. Odin’s shrieking female flying Valkyries were ‘choosers of the slain’, taking them to rebirth as the eternal fighters, the Einhirjar, and as cupbearers plying them with the powerful and plentiful mead in Valholl (Valhalla). As cupbearers, Odin’s women were eternally young and sexually available as a reward for warriors (sound familiar?). One of the ways in which 7th Century Islam differed to these old warrior practices was in the imposition of abstinence (the first AA I call it; meetings five times a day on a prayer mat, as alcohol was a serious problem in those days). They also distinguished themselves from old Germanic and Celtic traditions of dog and wolf associations – thus the proscription on dogs, as you don’t hunt with dogs or emulate wolves in the forest in the desert.

    I can well believe that in Islam it is considered shameful and non-heaven-worthy to be killed by a woman. I suspect the same applied in all of the ancient Indo-European warrior cultures, and probably the even earlier oon Indo-European Mediterranean ones too.

    I read that piece about the Kurdish women; all power to their contemporary version of a sword-arm. Women are not natural warriors, but they have a fierce protectiveness about them for themselves and their young. As shown by these proud ladies.

  37. cohenite

    You can be accommodating as I am and insist that some Muslims are reasonable

    You still don’t get it do you. There are many reasonable muslims but they still want sharia and sharia is not fucking reasonable. Does that sound contradictory; welcome to human psychology.

    For me a reasonable muslim is one who commits to a secular state; and guess what, a muslim who commits to a secular state isn’t a muslim he’s an apostate; and what does islam do to apostates; the same fucking thing it does to everyone eventually; ask James Foley; poor bastard.

    If the US had a real president it would have hunted down every member of isis immediately; but it doesn’t have a real president it has a black, arrogant traitor as a president.

  38. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    This is not just antiquated eschatology. The symbolism, in the return to ancient practices and expression, is seen again and again in the behaviour of the jihardis. If it is combined with modern IT, is is all the more dangerous in its appeal to Muslim youth.

    ++++++++1 Vicki. You are not wrong here.

  39. notafan

    I can well believe that in Islam it is considered shameful and non-heaven-worthy to be killed by a woman.

    Indeed, I was reading something written in Pakistan that said even the right to breathe did not belong to women, the men in their family had the rights over women breathing. I thought it was a joke but no, it was a serious piece.
    The Islamic view of women is seriously messed and the best they can offer is ‘before Islam Arabic tribes buried unwanted female children alive Look how enlightened islam is’.
    The inability to form one on one relationships between men and women that is present across most of the world must contribute to the madness that seems to infect so many muslims.

  40. John Williams

    “Words are his specialty”
    Good grief !
    Obumma sounds great when reading from a script…that someone else wrote.
    That makes him an actor.
    Anyone who doubts that need only to listen/view Obumma when the teleprompter fails….if they can bear it.
    His minders go to extraordinary lengths to ensure that does not happen and that only scripted responses are delivered to “the folks out there”.
    All politicians are entitled to use modern age devices to enhance their delivery but equally we are entitled to a leader that is capable of coherent thought without them.

  41. lotocoti

    If Foley wasn’t a journalist, would Sir Golfsalot have pushed back his tee time to power up the TelePrompter?

  42. jupes

    I read that piece about the Kurdish women; all power to their contemporary version of a sword-arm.

    They are setting themselves up for failure. IS will not want to be defeated by females so will fight harder. Any women captured will meet a fate worse than death. Why anyone would put their daughters or wives in that position is beyond me.

  43. notafan

    ancient practices and expression

    I think you will find these ancient pratices were still popular right up to the end of the Ottoman empire in the early 20th Century.
    The Armenians certainly claimed that the Turks were crucifying young Armenian women.

  44. notafan

    They are setting themselves up for failure.

    Maybe, but the PKK women might just have decades of experience against a few months of the IS reavers.

  45. Gab

    They are setting themselves up for failure

    Maybe but at least they are doing something about the atrocities being committed by the Islamic State while their menfolk run and hide.

  46. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Any women captured will meet a fate worse than death. Why anyone would put their daughters or wives in that position is beyond me.

    Jupes, it’s when good men and women do nothing …
    Women put themselves in hideous dangers fighting the Nazis all over Europe.
    I hope these Kurdish women have a cyanide suicide pill in case of capture. Resistance fighters did.

  47. struth

    God on those women. It’s called bravery and heroism in my book.

    If they fail it will be because of gutless men.

    Like Obama and all other appeasers

  48. JohnA

    Wozzup #1424666, posted on August 21, 2014 at 9:40 am

    Perhaps now the peace in our time President will be forced to act with resolution.

    I wouldn’t bet on it.

    He as President failed to defend his own embassy in Benghazi.

    When will he do something? Could it be just after a nuclear strike on Wall Street? Or on the Pentagon.

    I know – after an invasion of Martha’s Vineyard!

  49. .

    You still don’t get it do you. There are many reasonable muslims but they still want sharia and sharia is not fucking reasonable. Does that sound contradictory; welcome to human psychology.

    No. There is no need to lie about Sufis, Ismalis, Ishrad Manji…

  50. old bloke

    “no faith teaches people to massacre innocents.”

    Obama should know his Koran better than that…..that’s a straight up lie.
    “The Koran and Hadiths instruct believers to kill infidels, Jews, apostates, homosexuals and non compliant women.The references are numerous.”

    Obama is actually right, Islam forbids the killing of innocents. What Obama didn’t say though was that anyone who isn’t a Moslem, or a Moslem of the right persuasion, isn’t an innocent and therefore should be killed. Just some more taqiyya from the liar in chief.

  51. jupes

    No. There is no need to lie about Sufis, Ismalis, Ishrad Manji…

    FMD Dot give it a rest. Doubling down just makes you stubborn but still stupid.

    Every single Muslim believes that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating. Every one.

    Sharouf and Elomar are emulating Mohammed’s life as we speak.

  52. notafan

    Ismalis are a Shia sect who are pledged to the Aga Khan (allows him to live in great luxury in France)
    The Sunni will kill them as takfiris as quickly as any other Shia.

  53. .

    Every single Muslim believes that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating. Every one.

    Out of 1.2 billion people?

    You’re unhinged.

  54. notafan

    Sufis are predominantly Shia but even the Sunni ones are constantly under attack by islamists
    from wiki….

    recent years, Sufi shrines, and sometimes Sufi mosques, have been damaged or destroyed in many parts of the Muslim world. Some Sufi adherents have been killed as well. Ali Gomaa, a Sufi scholar and Grand Mufti of Al Azhar, has criticized the destruction of shrines and public property as unacceptable

    in Mali recent years, Sufi shrines, and sometimes Sufi mosques, have been damaged or destroyed in many parts of the Muslim world. Some Sufi adherents have been killed as well. Ali Gomaa, a Sufi scholar and Grand Mufti of Al Azhar, has criticized the destruction of shrines and public property as unacceptable

  55. Roger

    There is no need to lie about Sufis, Ismalis, Ishrad Manji…

    That’s quite true, dot; as I have suggested on the Cat before the sort of progressive Islam Manji represents is probably the only version really compatible with Western civilisation – more power to her and her ilk. But the problem for them and for us is that the c. 90% orthodox Sunni Muslim majority looks down on these sects and individuals even to the point of persecuting and killing them. Needless to say, we don’t appear to have many Ishrad Manjis in the Australian Muslim community.

  56. Tintarella di Luna

    How wonderful is Baraka Obama?

    By presidential fiat he has absolved Islam even thought ISIS and ISIL and IS has in it’s name Islamic State — so that’s all OK then, nothing to see here, how’s your swing coming along Barry?

  57. notafan

    Ishrad Manji wouldn’t be popular with IS either.
    How can one be a true muslim without revering the prophet?
    There is no such thing as the muslim race but if you identify as muslim you might be somewhere along a continuum of belief nominal, non practising … to full jihad but Mohammed is still the ideal man.
    ‘Behead all those who insult the prophet’ would be at the higher end I suspect.

  58. incoherent rambler

    . the Petainist of the cat.

  59. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Wozzup at 9:40 am:

    “Still if there is something good to come out of this recent ISIS barbarity in nearby Syria, it is that it is a wake up call for the West.”

    You’re only about a half century out of date. Try immediately after the Six Day War or Munich for the “wake up call”. The leaders and “thinkers” hit the “Snooze” button then and every time since.

    “Perhaps now the peace in our time President will be forced to act with resolution.”

    That is pure fantasy.

  60. old bloke

    No. There is no need to lie about Sufis, Ismalis, Ishrad Manji…

    Do you mean those peaceful Sufi Moslems who perpetrated, in large part, the Armenian Genocide?

    These small groupings of non-Sunni Moslems will all have to get with the Wahhabi/Salafist brand of Islam otherwise they will feel the wrath of the Sunnis, such as the Alawite Moslems in Syria, the Ahmedi Moslems in Pakistan. and any other minority grouping who aren’t sufficiently Moslem in the eyes of the greater Sunni majority.

    I don’t care how “peaceful” any of the minor groupings are; they all want to impose Sharia on me and I don’t particularly want it, thank you very much.

  61. jupes

    Out of 1.2 billion people?

    Yes. Every single one. Otherwise they are not Muslim. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.

    You’re unhinged

    Well one of us is.

  62. .

    incoherent rambler
    #1424868, posted on August 21, 2014 at 12:59 pm
    . the Petainist of the cat.

    This is not only lacks honour, it is pointless.

    Recognising that innocent Sufis, Ismalis along with various sects of Christians, Jews, Druze and Yazidis (and Zoroastrians) [as well as atheists] suffer under ISIS somehow makes me want to surrender to ISIS and their allies?

    You have lost all perspective on this.

    I hope the above form an alliance with each other and with the US, beat ISIS into dust.

  63. .

    Do you mean those peaceful Sufi Moslems who perpetrated, in large part, the Armenian Genocide?

    Shit. Did someone mention Aboriginal history? Or are we going to selectively apply “this is in the past” when it suits us?

  64. sabrina

    There is report that a mission to rescue the captive Americans were unsuccessful. Nothing will happen until the Saudis are taught a lesson. But will that happen?

  65. nilk

    Any women captured will meet a fate worse than death. Why anyone would put their daughters or wives in that position is beyond me.

    Like the women and children captured now are not suffering a fate worse than death?

  66. .

    Yes. Every single one. Otherwise they are not Muslim. Of course if you have evidence to the contrary please present it.

    Hmm yes like a lot of lay Christians who aren’t comfortable with original sin.

  67. Roger

    I hope the above form an alliance with each other and with the US, beat ISIS into dust.

    Bring in the French, the Germans, the Russians and even the Iranians too. Seriously.
    Nothing unites like a common enemy.

  68. Gab

    lol the moral equivalence dance is fun to watch. Not just Christians but now upping the ante and throwing Aborigines into the mix, an imaginative touch.

  69. Grandma

    Of course he will do something! Michelle will start a new Twitter hashtag. That’ll show them!

  70. incoherent rambler

    Michelle will start a new Twitter hashtag.

    And I hear they might ban IS members from facebook!

  71. notafan

    I’m pretty sure all Christians believe in Jesus Christ but hey original sin
    Mohammed is the lynch pin of Islam.

  72. Glinda

    No. There is no need to lie about Sufis, Ismalis, Ishrad Manji…

    Dot, read a little further about these sects of Islam. You might be surprised. The Sufis were amongst the most ferocious defenders of Islam and their mystical thinking didn’t occur until several hundred years after Muhammad’s death. The Ismailis, a Shiite sect, are considered hypocrites to other Muslims. However, they are but a minority of the 1.5-1.7 billion Muslims. The Sunni majority (85-90%) hates these people nearly as much as they hate us. As to Ishrad Manji, she, to devout Muslims is an apostate. All would be subjected to the same atrocities awaiting us infidels.

    Every single Muslim believes that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating. Every one.
    Out of 1.2 billion people?
    You’re unhinged.

    No, Jupes is not unhinged. He is absolutely correct. Muslims are compelled, according to Quranic verses to emulate Mohammed. They honestly and sincerely believe in their hearts that Prophet Muhammad never did anything which is wrong or immoral by the civilized standards; hence every good human being should follow the Islamic prophet as the model on earth and they readily call it as the Islamic Code of life.

  73. Alfonso

    Alas, the murderous Koran has all Muslims trapped.
    It’s your operations manual if you’re a Muslim.

    The best Tone can hope for is to subsidise and encourage a new class of non practising Muslims….
    Good luck kaffirs.

  74. Ellen of Tasmania

    No just god would stand for what they did yesterday

    Not all ‘gods’ are equal, not all religions are equal and not all cultures that grow from those religions are equal.

    Culture is religion externalized” (Henry Van Til)

  75. .

    Gab
    #1424896, posted on August 21, 2014 at 1:13 pm
    lol the moral equivalence dance is fun to watch. Not just Christians but now upping the ante and throwing Aborigines into the mix, an imaginative touch.

    What moral equivalence? This is baffling.

    I only ask people keep their principles consistent.

  76. Roger

    Culture is religion externalised.

    So true.
    And we are living off the cultural capital of our more religious ancestors.
    Are you Reformed, Ellen?

  77. .

    Dot, read a little further about these sects of Islam. You might be surprised. The Sufis were

    What people did a long time ago is not a concern to anyone.

    No, Jupes is not unhinged. He is absolutely correct. Muslims are compelled, according to Quranic verses to emulate Mohammed.

    Except for the ones who aren’t.

  78. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From incoherent rambler at 12:59 pm:

    “. the Petainist of the cat.”

    Heh, heh, heh – accurate and honorable.

    I enjoyed the gold medal acrobatics which followed.

  79. Roger

    What moral equivalence? This is baffling.
    I only ask people keep their principles consistent.

    I’m prepared to take dot at his word here.
    He’s not advocating moral equivalence, but equality before the law.
    No-one gets a pass on ‘You shall not kill (unlawfully)’, no matter how much we identify with them.

  80. Gab

    Did someone mention Aboriginal history? Or are we going to selectively apply “this is in the past” when it suits us?

    What people did a long time ago is not a concern to anyone.

    Priceless.

  81. .

    Err Gab, if you don’t understand the quote of me in the context it was made…seriously read it again.

    The black armband view of history is shit, no matter where it is applied. If people selectively apply this, they are not acting to principles.

    Somehow having a consistent position against Islamic militancy is “Petainist”, because I’m not frothing at the mouth about EACH AND EVERY Muslim alive today.

  82. notafan

    not all religions are equal

    Some of those South American ones were unbelievable in the need for very real and bloody human sacrifice, sometimes requiring thousands to be slaughtered.

  83. notafan

    No-one here is frothing at the mouth about every muslim alive today are they? It’s Islam that is the problem. Who can blame people for being born into a cult they cannot leave on pain of death?
    When they undertake to live it exactly as their faith requires inshallah I blame them as I believe they do so in a conscious decision, an act of free will.

  84. Gab

    Yeah, I don’t think I got the context wrong at all, Keysar,

  85. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    Ouch – one trusts one has girded one’s loins!

  86. Every single Muslim believes that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating. Every one.

    Out of 1.2 billion people?

    You’re unhinged.

    Well, how can you call yourself a Muslim if you don’t believe the above? If you don’t , you’re not Muslim.

  87. old bloke

    Nor does he (Obama) appear to understand the importance of the declaration of the Caliphate to devout Muslims who have been waiting for the “Mahdi” – the 12th imam who, it is believed, will deliver Muslims from the control of infidels and restore Muslims as the rightful (and “righteous”) rulers of the world.

    This is not just antiquated eschatology.

    A comparative study of Christian and Islamic eschatology is very revealing. Joel Richardson has written an interesting study of the similarities in his book “The Islamic AntiChrist” which I can recommend to anyone who may be interested in eschatology. An audio version of his book is available here.

  88. Culture is religion externalised.

    Indeed. I’m planning on reading Christopher Dawson on this very soon.

  89. struth

    Christians believe in Jesus Christ and his teachings.
    Every single one of them.
    They are not christians otherwise.
    Follow the logic with muslims.
    It’s really not that hard dot.
    You have been absolutely smashed time and time again on this blog, but just like a lefty you will not see what you don’t want to see.
    Just remember, with your head buried in the sand it’s so much easier to be reamed up the arse.
    You just won’t see it coming.

  90. cohenite

    Dot still doesn’t get it.

    Let’s bring it closer to home; Ed Husic is an elected member of a democratic parliament which sources its law making powers in a secular process. He swore his allegiance on a koran.

    Muslims must abide by the koran; you cannot be a muslim if you contradict the koran; the koran prescribes that its law, sharia, be above any infidel law.

    Does Ed Husic believe the sharia legal system is subject to secular law or not?

    I asked John Laws this question and it baffled him too. But it is the central issue; can you be a muslim and accept the secular laws of the host nation are above sharia law?

  91. Bear Necessities

    How wonderful is Baraka Obama?

    By presidential fiat he has absolved Islam even thought ISIS and ISIL and IS has in it’s name Islamic State — so that’s all OK then, nothing to see here, how’s your swing coming along Barry?

    Imagine if it was a white right wing tea party male doing the slaughtering. The Age, SMH and NY Times would all be having it on their Front pages.

  92. john constantine

    Petro-islam.

    Undoubtedly there are moderate muslims that are great people.

    Unfortunately they don’t own oil wells, and don’t have the billions/tens of billions/ hundreds of billions to spend building mosques/command and control centers, to spend building education facilities/recruitment and indoctrination facilities.

    Follow the money, Petrodollar billy shorten is. If you had have told petrodollar billy when he was starting out holding fundraisers at ‘raheen’ that he would be eventually funded into power by anti-semites, he would have mocked you.

    Once petro-islam has built the facilities, why would they let them be staffed with ‘the wrong sort’?.

    how are the poor but honest sections of the faith going to compete with the weight of petro-islamic dollars?.

  93. notafan

    The military group Islamic State has not shown much tactical savvy, said another official who has been briefed on operations there. Many of their units have remained in the open, are readily identified, and, relatively easy to kill by airstrikes.


    Commanders want more Iraq airstrike power

  94. Ellen of Tasmania

    Are you Reformed, Ellen?

    Yes.

  95. .

    Let’s bring it closer to home; Ed Husic is an elected member of a democratic parliament which sources its law making powers in a secular process. He swore his allegiance on a koran.

    Howard swore on a bible. Does he believe a prophet will choose our new King?

    Does Ed Husic believe the sharia legal system is subject to secular law or not?

    He doesn’t believe in Sharia Law, obviously.

    If you lay awake at night worried about Ed Husic…you greatly overestimate the man.

  96. cohenite

    Howard swore on a bible. Does he believe a prophet will choose our new King?

    I can’t answer for that twerp but obviously there are no Christian moves to introduce a religious based legal regime. That you persist in these attempts at equivalence show you really are in a strange and illogical head space.

    He doesn’t believe in Sharia Law, obviously.

    That’s a leap of faith which has no basis in reality and is in fact contradicted by the reality that Husic publically swore his allegiance to the koran; as not recognised by the luvvies who used the occasion to trumpet the success of multiculturalism.

    I don’t worry about Husic specifically but I suspect he finds the irony amusing; who wouldn’t except the vanity driven luvvies and the pure of heart libertarians.

  97. jupes

    Hmm yes like a lot of lay Christians who aren’t comfortable with original sin.

    No. Nothing like that at all.

    Mohammed lived the perfect life. Every single Muslim believes that.

    Show me a Muslim who disagrees with that and I will show you a Kaffir.

  98. jupes

    Speaking of Ed Husic, he was on PVO a couple of nights ago with Islam dominating the headlines.

    No prizes for guessing the number of questions PVO asked him on the topic.

  99. Percy

    Wow, Bambi’s caddy writes a good speech, though I’m surprised the poor overworked bugger found the time.

  100. Boambee John

    Islam may or may not be a religion of peace, but its associated legal system (Sharia) and political aim for world domination are clearly NOT peaceful.

    If we must hear the “religion of peace” mantra, let’s make it clear that the legal and political systems that Islam supports do NOT match that mantra.

  101. Viva

    he can’t even keep abreast of the evolution of the group, calling it ISIL

    Actually I agree with calling them ISIL or ISIS – why acknowledge their self proclaimed Islamic State?

  102. Anne

    Thank you Mr Obama for that note of condolence and brief summary of IS modus operandi.

    Would you tell us please….

    WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO DO ABOUT IT?!

  103. Vicki

    The military group Islamic State has not shown much tactical savvy, said another official who has been briefed on operations there. Many of their units have remained in the open, are readily identified, and, relatively easy to kill by airstrikes.

    Those who don’t think that IS have any tactical savvy should regularly update on the IS expansion in Iraq on this site:
    http://www.understandingwar.org/

    David Kilcullen, one of our foremost military analysts, also wrote a great piece in The Australian this week. Although they use “swarm tactics” with humvees, this is followed up with heavy artillery. They have concentrated on gaining control of the dams on both the Tigris & Euphrates, & also the oilfields. Their use of suicide bombers & IEDs has disrupted Iraqi defences & they have tried to adopt a pincer movement in surrounding Baghdad.

    Not tactically savvy? I don’t think so. Know your enemy.

  104. Roger

    Islam may or may not be a religion of peace, but its associated legal system (Sharia)

    John, Muslims themselves do not distinguish between religion and law the way we do in the West – Sharia is perfect, divine law and is thus integral to the religious practices and ethical life of the Muslim. There is, therefore, a struggle within Islam – in as much as one can generalise, but it does seem to cut across sectarian lines – between those who seek to make Sharia the law of the land in which they live and those who, as the previous group see it, are inconsistent in their practice of Islam by not enforcing Sharia principally due to Western influence as a result of colonisation which left a legacy of secular jurisprudence (e.g. Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, etc. ). This matter, which is obviously still to be resolved in the Islamic world, goes to the heart of why Islam as a religion/system/ideology (take your pick) which seeks authority over all areas of life is incompatible with Western civilisation and the freedoms we customarily cherish.

  105. Menai Pete

    Reminiscent of Pol Pot’s rampage through Cambodia

  106. notafan

    Not tactically savvy? I don’t think so. Know your enemy.

    The US military guy is talking about air attacks. They were fine when they had no airstrikes against them but they appear to have failed to change up when they got hit from above. They continue to expose themselves to being hit from the sky. Long may that be.
    No surprised about killing James Foley as payback.

  107. Roger

    Not tactically savvy? I don’t think so. Know your enemy.

    There is strong intelligence that the military leader of ISIS/L is a former high-ranking officer in the Iraqi army. That would certainly explain the military effectiveness of an otherwise ragtag group of jihadists from assorted backgrounds.

  108. Roger

    Foley first kidnapped by Obama funded “moderate” free Syrian army group.
    Presumably one of the groups Hillary Clinton has recently said the U.S. should continue to support to effect regime change in Syria. The idiocy of the American political class is astounding.

  109. stackja

    Prophet Muhammad would brook no opposition.
    … assassin’s blade or massed beheadings pay zakat and khums to the Prophet.

    The Roar of Lions: The Asymmetric Campaigns of Muhammad
    Russell G. Rodgers

    … it was the beheading of about 800 warriors of this last Jewish tribe that gave notice to all around that Muhammad would brook no opposition.

    The mere threat of a Muslim assassin’s blade or massed beheadings was now enough to get a recalcitrant tribal leader to tender his submission and pay zakat and khums to the Prophet.

  110. notafan

    Yadizi are devil worshipers not ‘innocents’
    Obama speaks with forked tongue

  111. Boambee John

    Roger:

    My point was to enable we in the West to distinguish between the three aspects (religion, law, political philosophy) so that we can get away from our focus on the religion (and the associated screams of “Islamophobia” from the useful idiots), and concentrate on the legal and political aspects, where it just might (I don’t have much confidence here) enable us to have some kind of public debate without the useful idiots shutting it down.

    I accept that the wilder Muslims don’t make the distinction, but there is no point trying to debate them with anything less than a nuclear weapon.

  112. Chris M

    Thank you Mr Obama… WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO DO ABOUT IT?!

    Is the Libertarian position to do nothing much unless an enemy attacks your country? Maybe he will kill one mohammadan jihadi and call it even.

  113. Zaphod

    The idiocy of the American political class is astounding.

    McCain’s Saddam-Rumsfeld moment ?

    http://www.today.com/video/today/52019010

  114. Alfonso

    A single US Armoured Division with Air can clean up the whole 30,000 ISIS in 3 weeks.

    Must be tempting.

  115. hzhousewife

    May every fighter pilot be female, and every drone feminine.

  116. Roger

    John – understood, but I don’t think your methodology would work with the majority of Muslims we have here because they are on a trajectory of maximising Sharia and using multiculturalism as a trojan horse to do it.

  117. Wozzup

    No religion preaches massacre of innocents hey?

    Well, apart from Islam.

    In a study of Canadian mosques it was found that 85% of imams were hardcore jihadists. In the USA the figure was hardly different – 80%.

    And what do these imams preach? Well mostly they are hardcore because these mosques accept money from Saudi Arabia and in exchange, they preach the vile, virulent, violent and aggressively anti-western form of Islam that is wahhabisim from Saudi which has been described as ultra-othodox, fundamentalism and puritanical. Wahhabism does not teach hatred and murder of non Muslims because it deviates from Islam – it teaches it because it precisely follows the Koran and regards those Muslims who do not have the same murderous 7th century views as backsliders. It preaches murder of apostates, westerners and Jews wherever found. This is what “terror” means. This ideology is described by both scholars and U.S. officials as a radical, violent philosophical platform used by terrorists and their supporters to justify violence against Christians, Jews and other “non-believers.

    Here is an example:

    “Satan and his soldiers have found a home for themselves there (in the West) … Democracy is in need of someone to save it from itself.” In order to rectify the evils of democracy, the Wahhabi American mosques advocate for jihad and terror, teaching that, “[we] will pursue this evil force [modernist civilization] to its own lands, invade its Western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal, and there will be no more ‘persecution’ and all religion will be exclusively for Allah…Be dissociated from the infidels, hate them for their religion, leave them, never rely on them for support, do not admire them, and always oppose them in every way according to Islamic law.”

    That quote comes from “To Be a Muslim”, published by Saudi Arabia’s International Islamic Publishing House.

    It also gives you a hint of what is meant by ‘persecution’ of Islam. We non-Muslims persecute them merely by our not being Muslim…………

    There is no placating this monstrosity. It has to be fought with ideas and to the extent needed it has to be fought on the battle field. So it was with Nazis and so it was with military dominated Japan in WW2. So it is with all these insane and evil beliefs founded in hatred and oppression. Until defeated the ideas themselves do not die.

  118. Zaphod

    A single US Armoured Division with Air can clean up the whole 30,000 ISIS in 3 weeks.

    Stopping at the Syrian border?

  119. Roger

    Ah Zaphod, Sen McCain…what can you say but “he’s done it again”?
    Not content with his part in fomenting internecine war in Ukraine, he now interjects himself into Syria, where angels fear to tread. A gallant war record does not entitle him to foist his foolish foreign policy into fragile parts of the world where the toll of human suffering is already inestimable.

  120. incoherent rambler

    There is no placating this monstrosity. It has to be fought with ideas and to the extent needed it has to be fought on the battle field. So it was with Nazis and so it was with military dominated Japan in WW2. So it is with all these insane and evil beliefs founded in hatred and oppression. Until defeated the ideas themselves do not die.

    I agree with all of that.

  121. .

    It is no leap of faith to assume what over a billion people are thinking, and all of them think Muhammad had a perfect life?

    Utter nonsense.

    You’re marginalising decent Muslims to make an already accepted point they are outnumbered in less developed countries by backwards thinking Muslims.

  122. Leo G

    Yadizi are devil worshipers not ‘innocents’

    Yazidi are are regarded as a Muslim sect, deists who believe the Creator left the management of creation to seven angels. Other Muslim sects, eg Sunnis, Judaists, and many Christian groups associate the chief angel of Yazidi deism with Iblis or Satan.

  123. notafan

    Leo I meant that Muslims do not regard them as ‘innocents ‘ as their definition of innocents is different to ours and Obama knows that.

  124. notafan

    I don’t know what a muslim is then, they aren’t a race. Do they follow mohammed or not?
    Sure some are cultural muslims, non practising muslims, cafeteria muslims ‘moderate, muslims, agnostic muslims but so what?
    We are not concerned about the ones who don’t take their believes seriously.

  125. .

    Leo G
    #1425232, posted on August 21, 2014 at 5:34 pm
    Yadizi are devil worshipers not ‘innocents’

    Yazidi are are regarded as a Muslim sect, deists who believe the Creator left the management of creation to seven angels. Other Muslim sects, eg Sunnis, Judaists, and many Christian groups associate the chief angel of Yazidi deism with Iblis or Satan.

    Right. So they’re not “devil worshippers” at all.

  126. Tintarella di Luna

    May every fighter pilot be female, and every drone feminine.

    Let’s just say they are — maybe a few photos of lady pilots piling in would be a good show, some of the WWII pilots painted women on the front of their planes called them Memphis Belle and Miss Fifinella and the like — I’m sure that’s count.

  127. Notafan

    In the eyes of muslims the Yadizi are devil worshippers.

  128. tomix

    These devil worshipers seem to have superhuman powers of endurance. They’ve been on that fucking mountain without water for a month now.
    It’d be all over inside 4 days for the rest of us.

  129. cohenite

    decent Muslims

    Reasonable muslims, moderate muslims, rational muslims; is there no end to these platitudes?

  130. tomix

    Considerate muslims, cute & fluffy muslims, an AFL Muslim Round, National Sorry to Muslims Day….

    The opportunities for the Left to play Identity Politics are endless.

  131. Roger

    Obama asks for $500 million to help train vetted Muslims.

    Idiocy of the American political class example No. 3.

    The only bulwark against Islamic extremism in Syria is Assad.
    Clinton, McCain, Obama: Let’s arm those who want to overthrow him.
    Idiocy.

  132. Notafan

    The mountain has small villages and access to water but IS were shelling the water sources.
    45,000 have now left the mountain after the US conducted airstrikes and only 5000 remain mostly for preference, as I understand it.

  133. tomix

    It’s all about regime change in Syria. Abbott will be preventing Australians from going to the Syrian War who want to help the last protector of Christians in the Middle East.

  134. Roger

    Abbott will be preventing Australians from going to the Syrian War who want to help the last protector of Christians in the Middle East.

    Well, that is quite likely illegal under Australian law, tomix.
    Nonetheless, Abbott and Bishop have not marked themselves as independent minds when it comes to foreign policy so far. Perhaps, though, that is a luxury that they – and we – don’t have.

  135. struth

    The people that have declared war on the west are muslims.
    They are killing westerners and christians.
    In Australia during ww2 we locked up japs and germans that had lived here for years.
    Just in case.
    Back then common sense was ……well…….common.
    These people identify themselves as members of a religious state at war with us.
    We ask of them what?
    Do we even ask them to swear an oath of allegiance to our country above islam?

    Do we expect of them to actively denounce and condemn the slaughter done in tbeir name?
    Should we even have to ask?
    Diddums the poor moderate muslims are too scared to say anything.
    Bullshit.

    Who stopped the KKK?

  136. Nato

    No just god…

    If the adjective is objective, what he says makes perfect sense.

  137. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    May every fighter pilot be female, and every drone feminine.

    Oh yes please. With PR pics as Tinta suggests. Let’s smear the nosecones with pig fat too. And a bit of menstrual blood. We are saving 72 virgins in Heaven from rape here, ladies, with each fighter we make die in Islamic ignominy. To say nothing of the real women and children we save from the predations of this insane ideology and its evil ‘Caliphate’. Make it a new ‘Thousand-Year Reich’.

  138. cynical1

    In Poker parlance, ISIS is all in.

    By taking the extreme action of beheading James Foley, ISIS signalled the air strikes are
    intolerable and must stop.

    They have one more throw of the dice If the US raises, it’s open season.

    A bunch of retarted amateurs in open desert with targeting via SAS, SBS, Delta.

    One more beheaded American.

    And then it must be a turkey shoot.

    A moab on a convoy in open country would send a message.

  139. Boambee John

    “ecause they are on a trajectory of maximising Sharia and using multiculturalism as a trojan horse to do it.”

    Roger:

    I agree with you, but they are not the ones we need to convince – it is the majority of (hopefully reasonable) Australian people.

    Personally, I don’t mind that Muslims worship their Allah by facing towards Mecca five times a day; I don’t mind that they segregate their religious services by sex (though I am mightily upset that so-called “feminists” who would go berserk if a Christian group did so seem to regard this as a charming cultural practice); I don’t even mind them segregating the women by who is where in their menstrual cycle. What people do essentially privately in their religious practice is their business, as long as they don’t do it in the street and frighten the horses.

    I do object, however, to claims for legal rights to do things that are contrary to established law and modern civilisation, such as execute (murder??) people for apostasy, adultery, or their sexual preference, or mutilate thieves (yes Dot, I know we used to hang them or transport them to the colonies, but we have moved on, so should Muslims), of conduct FGM operations. And I absolutely oppose political attempts to impose world-wide Islamic rule by violence, or by using the guise of multiculturalism.

    Until the latter matters can be openly discussed, we are going backwards, and I think dissociating the religious practice (to the extent that it does not offend civilised community norms) would help.

    If the majority of Muslims here truly wish to maximise Sharia, then they might again be offered Peter Costello’s advice (paraphrased): “If you want to live under Sharia, know that it will never be imposed here; there are, however, countries where Sharia has been implemented. Feel free to move there”.

    The important thing is that we be able to talk about these matters without some pseudo-religious “thought police”, many of whom would more usually be violently secular in outlook, trying to stifle the discussion.

  140. jupes

    You’re marginalising decent Muslims to make an already accepted point they are outnumbered in less developed countries by backwards thinking Muslims.

    Yet you cannot find a single Muslim who doesn’t think Mohammed lived a perfect life Dot. Not one.

  141. Leo G

    In the eyes of muslims the Yadizi are devil worshippers.

    Yazidi may also be referred to as Yezidi, Azidi, Zedi, or Izdi- but not correctly as Yadizi.
    Yazidi deny the existence of evil and reject the concept of sin, a Devil antithetical to God, and Hell. They are definitely idol worshippers- they worship representations of their chief angel- but it is inaccurate to call them devil worshippers.

  142. It is no leap of faith to assume what over a billion people are thinking, and all of them think Muhammad had a perfect life?

    Utter nonsense.

    No, it isn’t if they call themselves Muslim. Otherwise, the word carries no meaning.

  143. Demosthenes

    In a study of Canadian mosques it was found that 85% of imams were hardcore jihadists. In the USA the figure was hardly different – 80%.

    Which study was that? Those neat numbers sound like forwards from grandma.

  144. ” no faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

    Despite the clear apologist meme here, making it about the religion itself serves no purpose. Even if we identified the problem as being of Islam itself, it still does not serve any effective political purpose. Without people, there is no Islam, or Christianity for that matter.

    As much as I hate the left, and as much as Islamism is a product of Islam itself, arguing over who is at fault is meaningless. All that really matters is identifying the problem and dealing with it. The problem is extremism, so deal with that and 1400-odd years of Islamic animosity is put back in its box. The alternative is genocide of 1.5 billion muslims, an unachievable political goal, and also suffers from the problem of being grossly immoral. Nothing encourages islamism more than success, and nothing dents it more than failure. Let them fight a war. Let the west choose the time and location of individual fights, and supress those foolish islamist urges.

    Unless someone comes up with a better solution, then management is the best response.

  145. Makka

    “You’re marginalising decent Muslims to make an already accepted point they are outnumbered in less developed countries by backwards thinking Muslims.”

    And every single one of them subscribe to a faith that preaches death to the infidel and apostate. This ridiculous defense is tiresome . Why? To prove some obtuse libertarian ideal is more right? There is no such thing as a moderate moslem. Just moslems who have yet to be tapped for violent jihad.

  146. .

    No, it isn’t if they call themselves Muslim. Otherwise, the word carries no meaning.

    And every single one of them subscribe to a faith that preaches death to the infidel and apostate.

    This is absurd. There are no moderate, lapsed, liberal or heretical (let alone decent) muslims because you are counting them as non muslims.

    So yes, under ridiculous the definition you put forward, what you say is true.

    It would also mean Australia’s Muslim population would be significantly and massively lower.

  147. Matthew

    IS is classic blowback. The US and their ME allies provided ISIS with weapons, money,training, manpower, and political cover in Syria, and the PM of Iraq rightly blames the US and the Gulf States for his country coming under attack by ISIS.

    the USA and it’s allies are the biggest state sponsors of terrorism in the world. Once people wrap their heads around that the whole terrorism thing begins to make sense.

  148. JC

    Matthew

    The US supported the FSA remnants, not ISIS.

  149. This is absurd. There are no moderate, lapsed, liberal or heretical (let alone decent) muslims because you are counting them as non muslims.

    So yes, under ridiculous the definition you put forward, what you say is true.

    dot, a Muslim, by definition, must believe “that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating”, otherwise, they’re not Muslim. Not a ‘moderate’ Muslim, probably a lapsed Muslim (lapsed certainly indicates they are no longer Muslim until they return to believing “that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating”), and finally, who knows the sense in which they are being heretical Muslims? If it is in respect of not believing “that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating”, then no, they too are not Muslims.

    You have offered nothing that demonstrates either the absurdity or ridiculousness in any of the above.

  150. Notafan

    Is it 1400 of eminently or 1400 years of Christendom defending herself, not often successfully against aggressive warmongering land slave taking islam?

  151. mareeS

    There’s 1.2bill of them, 5+bill of everyone else, including 1.8bill Catholics.

    They’re a small, cranky minority who should be treated as such, and sent to the naughty corner.

  152. mareeS

    ps, Jews and Christians were on the planet earlier, and have prior rights to the head choppers.

  153. manalive

    “President Obama’s remarks on the execution [murder] of journalist James Foley by Islamic State”

    The ABC is using the same loaded language.

  154. cynical1

    Matthew,

    Shall we talk about Boko Harum? The Phillipines, China, Norway, Sweden, Denmark
    and on and on and on.

    The Shia will massacre Sunni and vice versa if no other victims are available.

    They have been doing since before Chris Columbus dropped into the big apple.

    Leave the Chompsky schtick aside.

    I often wonder if we should just nuke Mecca.

    Call it “The will of Allah” and see the fuckers go cross-eyed with confusion.

  155. Notafan

    iI was trying to make the point that IS are doing what islam prescribes. Assigning different values to human life. People who agree with me equals human.
    People who don’t agree /submit to me not fully human and therefore their lives are forfeit. Therefore the peacock people = devil worshippers and are not worthy of life,
    Innocence is therefore only a characteristic of the right thinking muslim.

  156. Matthew

    The US supported the FSA remnants, not ISIS.

    Ah yes, the ‘moderate jihadists’.

    In practice anyone that turned up got the support because the US isn’t able to tell the difference between a moderate islamist and an extremist islamist.

    Much assistance came from gulf states with US approval.

  157. cohenite

    It doesn’t matter, we’re fucked. Irvine, the fat-faced head of ASIO says Australia is not fighting islam and that ASIO is there to protect muslims.

    Australia and the West are schizophrenic towards islam; there is no other source of or terrorist threat other than islam yet we are including the bastards in Team Australia; islam is the problem but we want them to be part of the solution. Irvine urged:

    more Muslims to join ASIO

    .

    There is another thread on declining IQ; how can you argue against it when idiots like Irvine are saying stuff like that?

  158. Zippy The Younger

    I can’t find the reference right now, but it was decreed that killing an apostate (one who leaves or changes the word of the prophet) is worth the same kudos as killing 40 infidels. The islamic meme is strongly into self preservation and treats any offshoots as virulent cancers that must be exterminated.

    There is no such thing as “moderate” Islam, any apparent moderation has to be viewed as ignorance of divine law or taqiyya in action.

  159. Notafan

    Remember that Palestinian youtube on IS that had the IS (Zionists stooges)members arguing about who got to kill the Jordanian Christian that died of a heart attack during the argument.
    Each murder is allocated a number of blessings

  160. the USA and it’s allies are the biggest state sponsors of terrorism in the world. Once people wrap their heads around that the whole terrorism thing begins to make sense.

    Matthew, I was rather drunk when I wrote what I wrote above. What’s your excuse?

    You posit the idea that 1400 years of Islamic barbarity is explained by 300-odd years of the US. Worse, Obozo’s foreign policy is the reverse of his predecessors, preferring Islamism over brutal, but stable, despots.

    You are Exhibit A in the lowering IQ thread. Get help.

  161. notafan

    There are two or three things that Muslims are most sensitive about. The most important is religion. Muslims would like to be able to visit their mosques and say their prayers peacefully without interruption, without being beaten up, without being picked up for interrogation. They would also like privacy in their homes where they can lead their lives as Muslims. They would like dignity and honour for their families – in particular, for the elderly, the women and the children. They don’t like police or paramilitary forces to burst into their homes and humiliate their families. They would like some control over their lives, some perpetuation of their own customs and values, the construction and maintenance of mosques which are the focus of social and cultural life, the capacity to read the Qur’an and the chance to live as Muslims and by Muslim traditions. These include family laws, inheritance, religious holidays and religious festivals. When these are threatened, Muslims are threatened; confusion and anger ensue.

    They don’t like police or paramilitary forces to burst into their homes and humiliate their families.

    Then don’t engage in terrorism. -victim
    It doesn’t take much for muslims to be victims. Don’t allow us to practise Sharia -
    victim

    The suffering of muslim minorities

  162. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From cohenite at 9:10 am:

    “It doesn’t matter, we’re fucked. Irvine, the fat-faced head of ASIO says Australia is not fighting islam and that ASIO is there to protect muslims.

    Australia and the West are schizophrenic towards islam … declining IQ; how can you argue against it when idiots like Irvine are saying stuff like that?”

    A government appointing otherwise unemployable useless public servants such as Irvine, then tolerating him wandering off the reservation as he did this week, is a government in surrender.

    ASIO doesn’t bother knowing about muslim terrorists leaving for and returning from jihad event events, let alone preventing them. Little wonder when the top man is on the lunchtime speaker circuit spruiking peace, love and understanding for those who would behead us.

  163. Token

    Which study was that? Those neat numbers sound like forwards from grandma.

    I think that we can safely say that post was 85% sneery.

  164. notafan

    href=”http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/islamic-state-isis-foreign-hostages-syria-aleppo”>
    and more hostages seized

  165. cohenite

    ISIS and other Islamic warzones are sideshows; as notafan’s link to Marseilles shows when the bastards hit a certain % of the population all bets are off. In fact an analysis of how an increasing % of muslims causes ever increasing carnage and disruption is here.

  166. dot, a Muslim, by definition, must believe “that Mohammed lived a life worth emulating”, otherwise, they’re not Muslim

    DB, the Baha’i, an offshoot of Islam, believes that muslim simply means submission to the will of god. This meme also exists in Islam, which in Arabic, actually means, among other things, submission and obedience.

    Your understanding, like everyone elses, is based on interpretation of the Koran. To state that it is not open to interpretation is, by definition, extremist. It’s intolerance within Islam that

    We only see murder of infidels when the likelihood of reprisals are low. By this definition, most muslims are derelict in their duty, and yet they largely live unmolested.

    The problem is that such an interpretation is more popular, but of note is that muslims are more pious than they were 50 years ago. just look at the message boards and it’s full of scrutiny of the koranic text. How many christians scrutinise the bible these days. There are many reasons for islamic extremism, but the current fashion with piety is a big factor.

    If the world is not uniting against Islamic extremism rather than Islam as a whole, it is doing it wrong. Diplomacy is the art of the possible. Pursuing the impossible is foolish, regardless of its merit or otherwise.

  167. DB, the Baha’i, an offshoot of Islam, believes that muslim simply means submission to the will of god. This meme also exists in Islam, which in Arabic, actually means, among other things, submission and obedience.

    Your understanding, like everyone elses, is based on interpretation of the Koran. To state that it is not open to interpretation is, by definition, extremist.

    No, you’re mistaken. That Muslims must believe that “Mohammed lived a life worth emulating” is not up for interpretation. What is up for interpretation is precisely how he is to be emulated. This is what the Hadith is about. Just google Sunnah.

  168. Marion of the Glades

    Time to stop abusing people for their faith. Full stop. Over and out.

  169. Fisky

    That Muslims must believe that “Mohammed lived a life worth emulating” is not up for interpretation.

    For confirmation, you only need to compare the vastly different reactions of Muslims when they are personally abused for being Muslim as opposed to when Mohammad is abused for being Mohammad. You have a better chance of getting away with disparaging remarks about their Moon God than cussing the alleged prophet.

  170. Notafan

    More news on the evil death cult reavers aka islamists aka muslims operating in the countries of Syria and Iraq.
    Not a word Marion about the slaughtered, the raped, the millions forced from their homes?
    Just sympathy for poor abused muslims?

    More forced conversions

  171. sdfc

    So the conservative argument boils down to all Muslims are fundamentalist.

  172. Fisky

    I’m not a conservative, but no, sdfc, that’s not their argument. There are many non-fundamentalist Muslims. They are arguing that the religion itself is fundamentalist.

  173. cohenite

    There are many non-fundamentalist Muslims. They are arguing that the religion itself is fundamentalist.

    That is Gert Wilders position. It is spurious. If you are a reasonable or moderate person but adhere and believe in an unreasonable immoderate theology how does that make you moderate.

    One crucial test for muslims is whether they accept the primacy of the secular laws of their host nation. That is a test which no one is asking of muslims. Don’t forget Ed Husic swore his oath on a koran.

    It is a black joke really; while the West quibbles over nomenclature the parasite within is taking over.

  174. Notafan

    The religion itself is barbaric, and those that practice it seriously…

  175. sdfc

    I’m not a conservative

    You sound like one. You’re not a libertarian. What other options are there?

  176. Fisky

    That is Gert Wilders position. It is spurious. If you are a reasonable or moderate person but adhere and believe in an unreasonable immoderate theology how does that make you moderate.

    No, it isn’t. It’s a position based on observed reality.

    I can’t speak for all of them, cohenite (we are talking about hundreds of millions of people primarily in Central and South East Asia), but the overwhelming reason that they are Muslims is they were born into the religion and see no reason to renounce it. The reason they are moderates or liberals is that they cannot reconcile the ridiculous and out-of-date teachings of the Koran with everyday life, so they quietly ignore those that prevent them from enjoying a balanced and fulfilling existence.

    However, they also can’t verbalise their position openly, because it has little ideological support in the face of the barrage of propaganda by Arab Sunni interests, backed up by trillions of $ in oil money. And their muddled position also runs contrary to the Koran. So their best hope is to lie low, do their own thing, and hope the complexion of their government doesn’t change for the worse and ruin everything.

    I don’t hold that against them at all, given “taking a stand” may mean risking everything in their life.

  177. Fisky

    What other options are there?

    What, you mean for someone who supports gay marriage, secularism, recognising indigenous people in the Constitution, and special schools for trannie children? ‘Whig’ will do for me.

  178. candy

    So the conservative argument boils down to all Muslims are fundamentalist.

    You silly billy, sdfc. It slightly annoys conservatives to have this sweeping and unkind generalisation applied to us.

  179. cohenite

    I agree SA is the main source of the cancer but the Western bred muslims seem the most virulent; that is significant because when islam is tested against the secular social structure the true measure of the capacity of any moderation within is shown. Or not shown as the case is.

  180. Fisky

    that is significant because when islam is tested against the secular social structure the true measure of the capacity of any moderation within is shown.

    The only places where “moderate” Muslims have been able to flourish is under indigenous governments with legacy institutions that leave them alone. Such as Turkey and Indonesia. In both cases, the state created official ideologies to constrain political Islamism. In the West, unfortunately, the official doctrine of multi-culturalism has no clear way of taming Islamism at all. Here’s the first genuinely elected President of Indonesia:

    Wahid visited Israel six times. In an 2004 interview, he said, “I think there is a wrong perception that Islam is in disagreement with Israel. This is caused by Arab propaganda. We have to distinguish between Arabs and Islam. Some people in Indonesia claimed that I was a stooge for the West, but the fact that I am gaining in popularity all the time dispels this idea, and shows that this is the view of only a small minority of the elite. I always say that China and the Soviet Union have or had atheism as part of their constitution, but we have long-term relationships with both these countries. So then Israel has a reputation as a nation with a high regard for God and religion — there is then no reason we have to be against Israel.”[41]

    That’s not a bad piece of reasoning, all said.

  181. Notafan

    He says, like it’s a good thing, ‘for a 1000 years muslim armies were practising jihad..,,liberating lands, ‘
    all just a matter of perspective isn’t it?

    Check out uthman badar’s speech implementing islam radically and comprehensively muslims arise caliphate imminent from 2012

  182. cohenite

    In the West, unfortunately, the official doctrine of multi-culturalism has no clear way of taming Islamism at all.

    And given Erdogan’s rapid islamisation of Turkey and that the influence of Aceh is causing many other Indonesian provinces to introduce Sharia these moderate oases of islam due to state created official ideologies to constrain political Islamism are looking very fragile.

    Let’s face it this appears to be Islam’s time; weak and venal Western leaders, public comment constrained by PC and multiculturalism are the manure which is fertilising islam. And what young stud with the brains of a cockroach wouldn’t want to strut around the desert holding a head in his grubby paws?

  183. No, you’re mistaken.

    So a literal interpretation is not an interpretation? You’re saying that it is an oxymoron?

    How many Christians interpret the bible literally? Things would be very different if every Christian did.

    The point I’m making is that this is a people problem. Every would-be murderer sees this as a way to do so and get away with it. If guns don’t kill people, people kill people, then islam doesn’t kill people, people kill people. To believe one and not the other is logically inconsistent. Most people choose one but not the other due to worldview, not logic. And as I’ve said before, blaming the religion itself ain’t going to achieve anything.

  184. Fisky

    And given Erdogan’s rapid islamisation of Turkey and that the influence of Aceh is causing many other Indonesian provinces to introduce Sharia these moderate oases of islam due to state created official ideologies to constrain political Islamism are looking very fragile.

    Absolutely. The only way to beef up states like Turkey and Indonesia is to deal extremist Muslims a devastating and terrifying blow that discredits their ideology, and to freeze them out completely at home. Executing the entire Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt would be a start.

    Let’s face it this appears to be Islam’s time; weak and venal Western leaders, public comment constrained by PC and multiculturalism are the manure which is fertilising islam. And what young stud with the brains of a cockroach wouldn’t want to strut around the desert holding a head in his grubby paws?

    It kind of is, but it also isn’t. Because they cannot innovate anything, or produce anything that people actually want to buy of their own volition. Their ideology probably gave them an advantage 1,000 years ago, but actively impedes their progress now.

    In the meantime, before they burn out, I’ve no doubt lots and lots of people are going to get killed.

  185. Boambee John

    “blaming the religion itself ain’t going to achieve anything.”

    Which is why I argued above (1425089, 1425172, and 1425496) that we should focus on the legal (Sharia) and political (world rule by the caliphate) aspects.

    They are the damaging issues.

  186. Notafan

    that we should focus on the legal (Sharia) and political (world rule by the caliphate) aspects.

    Which people need to recognise are fundamental elements to Islam.
    Islam is not a religion in the same sense Christianity is.

  187. So a literal interpretation is not an interpretation? You’re saying that it is an oxymoron?

    No, that Mohammed is to be emulted is not disputed, how he is to be emulated may be disputed.

    The point I’m making is that this is a people problem. Every would-be murderer sees this as a way to do so and get away with it. If guns don’t kill people, people kill people, then islam doesn’t kill people, people kill people. To believe one and not the other is logically inconsistent

    So we shouldn’t blame communism or Nazism, we should blame people?

  188. So we shouldn’t blame communism or Nazism, we should blame people?

    Well, without people neither of those exist. They were ideologies dreamt up by people. Some people say the same about religion. Ideologies and theologies provide cover for despicable acts. Nothing to see here except human nature at its worst.

    I know what you’re saying, DB, but any solution must be achievable. Personally, I think they’re nuts and the big Mo called himself a prophet to provide cover for his militaristic and sexual adventures. Making him the target is not a winning solution.

  189. cohenite

    The paradigm underneath any discussion about islam is why certain people and not others are attracted to extreme ideology and within that ideology commit barbaric, vile acts.

  190. Fisky

    The paradigm underneath any discussion about islam is why certain people and not others are attracted to extreme ideology and within that ideology commit barbaric, vile acts.

    Because its promises of supremacy cannot be reconciled with contemporary reality. This causes enormous strain on people who are fully aware of their rather pathetic situation, but believe they have the right to dominate the world.

    Actually make shit that people wanna buy, and maybe things’ll get better, Muzzies.

  191. Fisky

    Also, Indonesians never had pretensions to world domination, and they don’t read Arabic either. So they don’t feel so put out and have less access to Sunni Arab extremism. The Turks were never colonised and won their independence on their own terms, led by an avowed secularist. That must have an effect.

  192. Well, without people neither of those exist. They were ideologies dreamt up by people. Some people say the same about religion. Ideologies and theologies provide cover for despicable acts. Nothing to see here except human nature at its worst.

    That people kill people is a trivial point, Beer Whisperer. What is relevant here are the motivations. Certainly, you might have people using Islam as a screen for base motivations, but if you investigate Islam itself you might find that what they are doing is commanded by Islam itself. I really don’t understand why people do not want to confront this simple fact.

  193. Oh come on

    I can’t speak for all of them, cohenite (we are talking about hundreds of millions of people primarily in Central and South East Asia), but the overwhelming reason that they are Muslims is they were born into the religion and see no reason to renounce it. The reason they are moderates or liberals is that they cannot reconcile the ridiculous and out-of-date teachings of the Koran with everyday life, so they quietly ignore those that prevent them from enjoying a balanced and fulfilling existence.

    However, they also can’t verbalise their position openly, because it has little ideological support in the face of the barrage of propaganda by Arab Sunni interests, backed up by trillions of $ in oil money. And their muddled position also runs contrary to the Koran. So their best hope is to lie low, do their own thing, and hope the complexion of their government doesn’t change for the worse and ruin everything.

    I don’t hold that against them at all, given “taking a stand” may mean risking everything in their life.

    This is an excellent and astute description of the lot of the moderate Muslim.

    What worries me is that adversity is liable to push moderates towards radicalising influences. When times get hard, people tend to look for something or someone to blame. Islamic doctrine provides all the answers these people could wish for.

  194. Fisky

    I really don’t understand why people do not want to confront this simple fact.

    It’s because there are no obvious solutions that actually deal with the problem as stated. I mean a solution that is commensurate with the problem is obviously to ban Islam, but that’s completely unworkable. I think the best we can hope for is to be clear in our expectations of people (and no dealings with forked-tongued “moderates” like Tariq Ramadan) and enforce them, limit immigration from the Middle East as much as possible, and every generation or so to look for opportunites to bait a would-be Caliph into the open desert and smash him and his followers without mercy.

  195. I really don’t understand why people do not want to confront this simple fact.

    Because it’s a dead end. What does confronting it achieve? I understand the nature of Islam and its followers. Calling their prophet names achieves nothing, true or not.

  196. Oh come on

    The great joke about ISIS is that if they were subjected to a sustained air offensive against where they’re dug in, they’d be toast. They are used to triumphing against Assad, whose tactical forays are basically a bunch of hail mary passes. We’re out of barrel bombs? Throw the kitchen sink! hmm didn’t go so well.

    There are many more capable actors who could strip away ISIS’s hardware advantage in a few sorties,

    Why are we prevaricating about the proverbial?

  197. Fisky:

    It’s because there are no obvious solutions that actually deal with the problem as stated. I mean a solution that is commensurate with the problem is obviously to ban Islam, but that’s completely unworkable. I think the best we can hope for is to be clear in our expectations of people (and no dealings with forked-tongued “moderates” like Tariq Ramadan) and enforce them, limit immigration from the Middle East as much as possible, and every generation or so to look for opportunites to bait a would-be Caliph into the open desert and smash him and his followers without mercy.

    Actually, you just elaborated it given that I have never thought that the solution is to ban Islam, but you can only adopt the policy you outlined having confronted and acknowledged the problem as it is.

    The Beer Whisperer:

    Because it’s a dead end. What does confronting it achieve? I understand the nature of Islam and its followers. Calling their prophet names achieves nothing, true or not.

    No, it isn’t because “banning” Islam is not the only solution. For pity’s sake, was the only solution to communism banning communism? So criticizing this or that aspect/ doctrine/ practice when confronting communism achieved nothing? Really? And who has simply been calling their prophet names rather than attending to the substantive problems with Islam? No one.

  198. cynical1

    The trouble is Mohammed himself.

    He was a violent raider who slaughtered his enemies.

    All the militant Muslim understands is the strong horse.

    Always will be a problem unless segregated or dead.

    Note the word “Militant”.

    Call it want you want, or use all the words, “Violent, expansionist, radical, militant Islam”.

    But calling it a Unicorn, won’t help.

    Sadly, as Mr Foley found out, wild animals, in the wild, are different to the ones in a zoo.

    Stroking them is not recommended…

  199. Peter

    ” no faith teaches people to massacre innocents”

    But Islam defines those who do not agree and comply as guilty and deserving of oppression or death.

  200. Peter

    “……………. but if you investigate Islam itself you might find that what they are doing is commanded by Islam itself. I really don’t understand why people do not want to confront this simple fact.

    I have debated with atheists who will not acknowledge this fact , because they desire to tar all religion with the same brush. They lacked the intellectual integrity to accept that there are vast differences between faiths and that those differences have consequences.

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