Don’t call me stupid

world iq

It is the second time in two days that I have come across an article that deals with IQ, the third rail of public commentary up until now. Here is today’s: Are we becoming more STUPID? IQ scores are decreasing – and some experts argue it’s because humans have reached their intellectual peak

IQ test results suggest people in the UK, Denmark and Australia have become less intelligent in the past decade. . . .

Some studies have shown the average IQ of Westerners has plunged 10 points or more since Victorian times and others claim it will keep decreasing.

Yesterday it was an article on IQ versus poverty which discussed “a longer running controversy is the persistent gap in literacy and numeracy associated with socioeconomic status.” This is moving into even more dangerous territory since it is grouping IQs by categories of some kind.

It must be the weather.

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236 Responses to Don’t call me stupid

  1. Badjack

    So there you go, it is official, the baby boomers are the smartest of those still on the planet.

  2. Grandma

    Yes, there is a link between low IQ, poverty and socioeconomic status plainly visible at any outer suburban shopping centre. In Germany, the majority of women with university education will remain childless. At the other end of the spectrum, generous welfare payments encourage the stupid and feckless to breed. Of course average IQ is dropping. Unless, of course, you believe that IQ is a product of the oppressive capitalist patriarchal hegemony which could be redistributed via Marxism.

  3. eb

    Colour me sceptical! Ha, at this rate the Planet of the Apes is a certainty.
    While no doubt the witty amongst the Cat will come up with plenty of anecdotal and humourous quips to seemingly prove the case, I find it very hard to believe stuff like this. Maybe its all in the way its measured.

  4. Max

    couldn’t have anything to do with multiculturalism

  5. steve

    At the point that breeding was allowed for everyone and not limited to the strongest, smartest individuals, the human race started going backwards. It won’t be long before we are drawing bears on the walls of caves again………I’m talking to you, Greenies.

  6. cohenite

    Idiots have more babies. In a developed world with natural selection defeated by social structure there is no survival advantage to breeding; the smartest and selfish understand that and don’t breed. The stupid do not and breed, especially since state charity enables and indeed encourages them to do so.

    Let’s talk about eugenics and the biology of intelligence.

  7. Ant

    It appears that IQ decreases as the Leftism increases.

  8. Max

    actually it probably has more to do with “whole word” (or Guess first) reading vs break-down and analyse reading.

  9. slackster

    IQ has a high correlation to ones genetics.

    Commence the luvvies going crazy over that fact that they will not discuss.

  10. steve

    Maybe its all in the way its measured.

    You mean a sort of a heat island effect on people’s cognitive abilities?

    See there it is, a link between global warming and stupidity.

  11. Greigoz

    I’d get angry, but I don’t understand graphs anymore.

    So instead, I think I’ll crack a beer and go out and do some work on the Torana until the footy comes on.

  12. Aussiemondo

    It must be the weather.

    Au contraire. 97% of the worlds scientists say it’s climate. /sarc

  13. The Flynn Effect is the name for the long term increase in IQ over time. It is believed to have stopped and gone into reverse although it is usually estimated to have started declining somewhere between the 1970s and the mid-1990′s, whereas the chart above suggests the reversal of the Flynn effect began in the 1950s.

    But anyway, it is true that IQ is either stagnant or falling, but this isn’t that surprising.
    IQ is a biological trait that has served its purpose. There is no survival and replication value in having a high IQ.
    Being smart doesn’t mean you will have more children, or that your children are more likely to make it into adulthood.

  14. Frank

    From the graph, we only have 12 more points to lose until most are eligible for the pension, due to retardation.

  15. A Lurker

    Too much crap on TV.
    Or more likely, too much TV, social media, and electronic devices.

  16. Robert O.

    Assuming Mendelian Genetics are still valid and we have read about Darwin’s thesis, one can believe that marriage between people from a lower socio-economic group will result in progeny of about the same intelligence as their parents, and if there are more of them , such a result is plausible. However, one must qualify this explanation in that some children far exceed their humble beginnings and of course the converse is equally true.

    To diverge; my late uncle, a retired brigadier , entered the army in about 1938 and I remember him telling me that the IQ tests of Tasmanian recruits during WW2 produced a bimodal distribution . At that time there was little travel within the colony, and also interstate, and they attributed it to the descendants of the common prisoners transported from England, and those of the political prisoners.

    Perhaps this explains Senator Lambie’s various comments.

  17. Mater

    Grandma, cohenite & Aussiepundit.

    +1

  18. ACTOldFart

    Comment 1: This is absurd. Isn’t the average IQ, by definition, always equal to 100?

    Comment 2: Oh No! Panic! We have a global IQ crisis! We need to use a trick to hide the decline.

  19. Comment 1: This is absurd. Isn’t the average IQ, by definition, always equal to 100?

    If they have to recalibrate the tests periodically because the population is consistently scoring better or worse than before on the same test, you can tell if people are getting smarter or dumber. And they do have to recalibrate them. For a long while they calibrated upwards and now it’s downwards.

  20. Matthew

    Immigration from low IQ countries is the reason for falling average ‘Australian’ IQ. If you isolate populations by ethnicity it is highly unlikely that IQ is falling.

  21. bemused

    If ever one needs an example: http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/bikini_pathology/. And no, for the Leftist dullards, I’m not referring to Tim Blair.

  22. Chris M

    This decline goes back centuries. Only 150 or so years ago it was common to find young people fluently speaking multiple languages and the like. 100 years ago average western people would read intellectual books and discuss them in daily conversation, you’d be seen as a freak doing that now.

  23. goatjam

    Well duh. We have spent the last half century rewarding sloth and stupidity and punishing intelligence. Who is surprised that the stupid people are breeding and the smart ones aren’t?

    We are well on the way to building a fully fledged Idiocracy

  24. Turtle of WA

    Some broad but valid generalisations:
    1. Smart men used to marry less smart women. e.g. Doctor and Secretary, spreading their DNA. Now smart people keep their genes to themselves.
    2. Smart women used to have children.
    3. In other animals the ‘strong’ have more offspring. In humans, the ‘dumb’ have more offspring. This is aided by socialism.

  25. Bruce of Newcastle

    Innate human intelligence is the same, its education that has been dumbed down to fit the progressive fluffy-unicorn syllabus.

    Where kids were required to do ‘hard’ subjects like maths, which has strong logical and inferential methodology, now they can dispense with it and do cultural studies and environmental awareness.

    Use it or lose it.

  26. Robbo

    “It must be the weather.”

    Quick get a call in to Tim Flannery for comment.

  27. struth

    Oh bemused.
    Great link.
    Forget about IQ.
    More important is why young girls can’t seem to grow a set of tits all by themselves anymore.
    Tben once silicone ly ample we look down to find…….their hips are missing.
    It doesn’t seem to stop them thinking they are “totally hot” though and the young blokes don’t know any better.
    I generalize of course..

  28. mark

    ACTOldFart….was wondering when the penny would drop:)

    To out myself first of all…129….yet, I do not consider myself any smarter than my cohort. I feel I am more willing to enquire for knowledge outside my workspace…it is bloody boring driving a truck! However, and here may be the rub. I partook in one of those online IQ thingies a couple of years ago after that noisy talking head Collingwood president did his little show on his pet tv station. Could it be my ordinary intellect, compared to my modern younger brethren, makes me smarter or, I suspect, they are more dumb?

    After all , IQ may well be a cognitive test. The answer, however, is purely statistic in nature.

    I have noticed some forms of examination, the private pilots licence theory test in particular, has become somewhat easier than what I remember from three decades ago. Is this a function of modern teaching methods? My kids school texts are written in a more narrative method than the hard science books I attempted to smash into my feeble mind when I sat in their position years ago. Yet, they equally fail to grasp the message within.

  29. Tim Neilson

    “Some studies have shown the average IQ of Westerners has plunged 10 points or more since Victorian times and others claim it will keep decreasing.”
    Makes sense to me. In the mid 19th century there weren’t Labor parties or Greens parties.
    But seriously, how much is real loss of IQ and how much is just staggeringly dumbed down education?

  30. Turtle of WA

    Bruce, you are dead right. We used to make kids feel a bit of pain to achieve academically. My father left school with elementary Latin. You don’t learn Latin with positive reinforcement and self esteem. You learn it through the seat of your pants.

  31. Bushdoc

    I strongly recommend you hunt out a low budget comedy called Idiocracy, sadly prophetic, a walk through any shopping centre in low socio economic suburbs will demonstrate the prophetic nature of the film. Sadly what can we expect, who is breeding.? Not the educated middle classes. It is in the low socio economic, social welfare, high unemployment low educational level areas. Simple statistics, the Bell curve is being shoved to the left.

  32. Gab

    As the number of leftards on the planets increases, the collective IQ decreases.This is not controversial in any way, shape or form. It is fact.

  33. Spongebob Steve Pants

    Take a look at any bogan neighbourhood. Nuff said.

  34. Up The Workers!

    The Labor (sic) Party WERE going to release a major statement on “I.Q”.

    But they couldn’t spell it.

  35. Up The Workers!

    The Labor (sic) Party philanthropically exists in order to give stupid people something to aspire to!

  36. Bern1

    “The Marching Morons”was written in 1951. The problem was evident even then. If stupid people breed with stupid people they will have stupid children.
    Survival of the fittest ensured a strong,inquisitive population. The welfare state ensures a regressive,negative, lumpen thuggocracy. Has any society, anywhere ever survived wealth and plenty?

  37. Rousie

    Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Stupidening (CAGS) is upon us.
    Educamacation Justice NOW!

  38. Old School Conservative

    I followed goatjam’s link, browsed around, and found Average Americans don’t count. Reminded me of our own recent election where the electorate listened to the LNP promises, voted them in, then got ignored when interest groups, bureaucrats and lobbyists persuaded the government to break those promises.

  39. If this were true, we wouldn’t have all those studies of neo-post-structuralist race/gender-based semiotics. And stuff.

  40. Driftforge

    There was also a recent study done in Taiwan that estimated the IQ drop rate there at around 1 point per generation.

    It’s one of the problems that we inherited with the second world war. We got so bound up in the evil of ‘eugenics’ that the study of the field cratered for 80 years, and only now is it starting to re-emerge.

    West Hunter is probably the best place for information on this, as a couple of the leading researchers in a small / forbidden field post there.

    Another useful place to get started is HBD Fundamentals, at Jayman’s blog. The stuff you can get away with as a Jamaican…

  41. Chris M

    Mark on that topic an instructor told me of a student who failed his commercial pilots license theory test no less than 17 times. They didn’t even have that many test paper variants so he was repeating some of the same questions in the end.

    Top marks for determination I guess but the bar is quite low (70% correct is a pass). Not sure who he works for….

  42. JC

    I wonder how much Homer E Paxton and Wodge have impacted the chart?

  43. thefrollickingmole

    For those talking about idiocracy the movie who can forget it has electrolytes!

    Or the by now classic (and beginning to creep into prime time now) “Ow, my balls”

  44. Robert B

    We have had someone who should have won a Nobel Prize (a real one) not being able to get a job and needing to drive a shuttle bus at an airport to make a living. One of the winners used his share of the prize money to give the driver a job back in science.

    Now please explain to me why there is this obsession with the the average IQ dropping. I have met many professors who do not have an IQ of 100 but we suddenly need every second blue collar worker to have an IQ over 100.

  45. Hawkeye P.

    “Immigration from low IQ countries is the reason for falling average ‘Australian’ IQ. If you isolate populations by ethnicity it is highly unlikely that IQ is falling.”

    Yep. The elephant in the room, one dares not mention its name…

  46. Aynsley Kellow

    ACTOldFart:
    I think the centring of IQ scores on 100 is on the median, not the mean. Could be wrong. But the tests are periodically revised, and care is taken to standardise them. This does not mean, or course, that there is not a methodological flaw in the standardisations.

    One of my obscure claims to fame is that for a couple of weeks, when I found myself briefly unemployed (having finished by PhD thesis), I worked as a research assistant on Jim Flynn’s research into race and IQ. (Jim was my HOD at Otago, was one of my Honours supervisors and taught me both US politics and political ethics).

    Interestingly, Jim was never trained as an educational psychologist (PhD Political Science from Chicago), and yet found what those with ‘relevant expertise’ had missed because they were dealing with standardised data. It was the raw scores, as I understand it, that showed the increase subsequently labelled the ‘Flynn effect.’ (I find echoes here for ‘climate science’ – a category that now exists in university training, but which almost none of the establishment has trained in: sceptical geologists and meteorologists are not ‘climate scientists’; warmist dendrochronologists are).

    For this reason, the answer here probably lies in the treatment of standardisation.

    Jim Flynn did get into some trouble with the tabloid media when he addressed the differential breeding question. He made the mistake of using a thought experiment I recall him using in class discussion: contraceptives in the water supply; prescribe the antidote. This was merely a response to a speculative question from a reporter, but you can imagine what the tabloids did with it. (Jim is very much a humanist and socialist, by the way).

  47. notafan

    too much TV, social media, and electronic devices.

    all passive activities that require minimal brain exercise but worst of all the dumbing down of education to the lowest common denominator
    someone should do a comparasion of textbooks and assigned reading from the early 20th Century until now.
    Bill Whittle’s youtube on the Argonuats was on the money.

  48. Driftforge

    If you isolate populations by ethnicity it is highly unlikely that IQ is falling.

    This is incorrect.

    Immigration from low IQ countries is one reason for falling average ‘Australian’ IQ

    This is correct, but it is hardly the only factor.

  49. Makes me think of the movie Idiocracy – where the stupid people bred, and the smart people didn’t, leading to a civilization that enjoyed watching shows called, “Ow My Balls!” I used to joke with a friend (who died last year, alas), that Abbott came up with the PPL idea after watching it.

    The notion of “bogan breeders” lowering IQ, whilst amusing, is rather pretentious, and I don’t buy it. To be honest, I’m suspect of the whole alleged decline – but if it does exist, I’d suggest Bruce of Newcastle is closer to the mark:

    Where kids were required to do ‘hard’ subjects like maths, which has strong logical and inferential methodology, now they can dispense with it and do cultural studies and environmental awareness.

    I don’t know what schools have been doing, but out of a dozen nieces and nephews, every single one of them claim to hate maths… quite sad.

  50. I read somewhere that the custom of cousin marriage costs Africa and the ME about 10 IQ points due to inbreeding. Does anyone know if it is true?

  51. old bloke

    Is there any relationship between the changing demographics in those nations (U.K., Denmark & Australia) and declining IQ scores?

  52. Well, obviously. Beer consumption in Australia has been dropping for decades.

  53. The Fifth Bike Rider of the Apocalypse

    The falling intelligence in Australia is demonstrated by people who vote for Clive Palmer’s rabble, the nihilist Greens, the ‘progressive’ ALP and any other left-wing loony with a sad story.

  54. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    Where kids were required to do ‘hard’ subjects like maths, which has strong logical and inferential methodology, now they can dispense with it and do cultural studies and environmental awareness.

    Use it or lose it.

    Answering IQ papers, let alone analyzing the questions, requires focus and an attention span of more than two seconds. Current education modes and mind-fragmenting media and video games will dumb any population down. Genetics? Yes, they count too, but somewhat less than a bad attitude and poor focus, traits which are also encouraged in many ‘cultures of poverty’, ‘cultures of slack affluence’ and ‘cultures of victimhood’.

    I shone in the British Eleven Plus (Welsh Nana claimed I topped English Worcestershire, but she may have just been proud of me). This was because for once (18 months) in my childhood I was living in a stable environment, and spent all my time with my head in a book. Nana disapproved of television and couldn’t afford it anyway. She made me do lots of practice books on the Mary is taller than Jim but shorter than Paul sort. She had a very direct intelligence and fostered my love of words and language; it’s because you’re Welsh, she would encourage. Plus I always enjoyed school in England whereas back in Australia I shone and bombed in equal part, had poor attendance at a horrible school and left aged just over fourteen. I started shining again as a mature aged student at 21.

  55. struth

    It all starts in the skoul…skool….sc..shcou…schools I tells ya.
    Generations that can’t add 2 and 2 know about aboriginal disadvantage as percieved by the left wing traitors brainwashing them. This goes back completely to the lack of integrity and responsibility of our education system.

  56. Myrddin Seren

    “Some studies have shown the average IQ of Westerners has plunged 10 points or more since Victorian times and others claim it will keep decreasing.”

    Maybe.

    And all the anecdotes about Australia are interesting, but in terms of the ‘Big Picture’ that chart is labelled
    ‘World IQ’.

    Here from the Wiki is a pretty handy chart showing growth in population by continent from 1950 – which handily lines up with the IQ chart start point.

    ‘Continents’ being a loose proxy for development.

    Europe, the Americas and Oceania ( that’s us ) – certainly a more sizeable percentage of the world’s population in 1950.

    Now – not so much.

    So we deduce – developed world IQs could have even gone up, but the average would still be swamped by the massive population increases from areas where, it seems, IQs haven’t moved up. ( This is a HUGELY politically incorrect observation to make of course – and in the fullness of time just observations of differences between peoples and societies will be 18Cd into the Forgettery. Say it now while we still can ).

    Next question – does it matter ?

    Probably ‘yes’ if you want the teeming masses to develop in to higher value, more complex patterns of sustenance and employment. Maybe less so if they are going to keep working on small farms, menial jobs and the like ( warfare ? ) – and someone else cranks out the new seed varieties, smart phones, sports shoes.

    However, as we see evidenced from Europe, America and even our own island borders – the lower relative IQs of the post-1950 generations is not so low that they haven’t figured out that they will be much better off in relative terms by getting in to the developed, social welfare states by hook or crook.

    Camp of the Saints – here we come…..

  57. Is there any relationship between the changing demographics in those nations (U.K., Denmark & Australia) and declining IQ scores?

    LOL. Well, assuming the IQ scores are going down, of course there’s a correlation – just as there is with any other changes over the years – but correlation is not causation. This is why I’m skeptical of any claims made on the matter – even if some of them resonate with my beliefs.

    The IQ panic is, basically, a loud of bollocks. Remember – any headline posed as a question can (and mostly should) be answered with the word, “No”. So, the answer to the headline, “Are we becoming more stupid?” should probably be the same… but just for fun (and again, assuming the trend in lower IQs is legitimate), here are some correlations we can make:

    - Does climate change cause lower IQ?
    - Does Internet use cause lower IQ?
    - Do vaccinations reduce our intelligence?
    - Does multiculturalism cause lower IQ?
    - Does economic growth reduce IQ levels?
    - Are increased house sizes making us stupid?
    - Is the higher rate of university graduates making us dumber?
    - Are our increasing waistlines contributing to lower IQ?
    - Are mobile phones affecting our intelligence?
    - Is WiFi turning us into morons?
    - Are we becoming dumber through increased television?
    - Is there a causal link between increased air travel and lower IQs?
    - Does inflation lower IQ levels?
    - Does increased population reduce IQ?
    - Are GM foods making is stupid?

    On and on…

    See? All silly. Of course, it may be that some of the above is true, but the hype around it all is mostly nonsense. Again: If a headline asks a question, mentally answer it with the word, “No”. Most of the time, you’ll be right.

  58. BTW, was this thread title a Fish Called Wanda reference?

  59. incoherent rambler

    Who says I am stupid?

    (h/t F-Troop)

  60. Roger

    ‘Continents’ being a loose proxy for development.

    Development is crucial – IQ is generally regarded as being dependent on three factors: genetics, environmental factors (diet, health and living conditions) and education and of those the role of genetics is the most debated by the experts. This explains why south Asians, Africans and West Indian blacks in their Western diasporas generally score much better than the general populations in their homelands and approach levels of the host population – and it is not just a case of the brightest emigrating, it is an increase across the board of all occupations and classes.

  61. You want stupid? I’ll give you stupid.

    Medical research fund put off-limits

    PLANS for a $20 billion medical research fund are being locked into the Abbott government’s budget strategy despite growing concerns about the idea, as ministers insist on keeping the scheme, as well as a controversial GP co-payment to pay for it.
    Fighting off calls to scrap the idea, Finance Minister Mathias Cormann is arguing for the fund as a vital structural reform that will cut net debt and pour money into long-term research without deepening the deficit.

    “That fund will not be spent but invested, generating a regular return,” Senator Cormann writes in The Australian today. “That capital fund becomes an asset on the government’s balance sheet, reducing government net debt by $20bn once fully accumulated.”

    I knew it. This is EXACTLY what I said in that Quadrant article.

  62. Diogenes

    I remember back in the late ’70s when I had my first go at a teaching degree at Macquarie Uni (ended up doing it properly nearly 30 years later) “multiculturial” ed was the big thing. The lecturer, did not believe in IQ test claiming they were culturally biased, and gave us a test specially created for afro-americans. Unlike the rest of the class I applied a BS filter and answered randomly ( the rest took it oh so seriously) believe it or not I was the only person of “normal” intelligence in the class (everybody else were “morons” on the scale).

    At our place we are seeing a “too kewel for skewel” fad at the moment, where even the selective class students are acting like morons and all of year 7 are acting like 2 year olds. As a teacher I believe the drop in attention span (thanks for nothing Sesame St and MTV) is a huge cause of problems (the current recommend activity time for boys is about 13 minutes) we are seeing across the board.

  63. Alexis

    1. This is complete bullshit
    2. The graph decreases from 91 to 89. Extrapolated 10 told. Like climate models.IQ margins of error are stupendous. This is utterly stupid.

  64. Alexis

    Btw I’m on a cognitive enhancer. It is unbelievable and would solve this problem if it existed.

  65. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Diogenes at 11:28 am:

    “… back in the late ’70s … a teaching degree at Macquarie Uni”

    Oh dear, oh dear! The young Macquarie “University” was at it’s risible worst then and it has not improved a jot since.

    “(ended up doing it properly nearly 30 years later)”

    You are to be commended for eventually working that out Diogenes.

  66. Btw I’m on a cognitive enhancer

    Which one? Where can we get it? :)

  67. DaveA

    Our immigration intake is biased towards high(er) achievers. Most don’t come as refugees, and the biggies, the Indians and Chinese, are largely middle class who prioritize education and career.

    But then you have Kiwis and Irish.

  68. Tim Neilson

    notafan
    #1425897, posted on August 22, 2014 at 10:22 am
    “someone should do a comparasion of textbooks and assigned reading from the early 20th Century until now.”
    When my parents moved out of our old family home I discovered some of my father’s late 1930′s/early 1940′s primary school textbooks. The maths book contained lots of those old “if 3 men can dig 4 holes in 5 hours how long would it take 7 men to dig 9 holes” kind of problems. I could remember doing some of those myself in primary school just before new wave educational techniques transformed the curriculum. A few years later a friend, not much younger than me, was studying for the GMAT, which presupposes a bachelor’s degree and a few years post- graduation experience in the workforce, with the GMAT being the further filter to restrict entry to MBA courses to the better candidates with those prerequisites. I looked at the mock exam questions and saw that, to the extent they concerned mathematics they were along the lines of “if it takes 3 factories 4 years to produce 5 million products how long would it take 7 factories to produce 9 million products”. My friend, who had missed out on getting even a few years of pre- new wave primary schooling, couldn’t do them.

  69. Patt

    I haven’t read through the whole tread so if i’m repeating sorry,try watch a comedy from 2005 called Idiocracy about how dumbed down man is in 500 years time.Hilarious but quite rude

  70. Patt

    You get a law degree at Costco for example

  71. struth

    Yeah and Tony Abbott is a Rhodes scholar.

  72. More evidence that we have reached peak stupid:

    A protestor at an anti-Tony Abbott rally at a university – one presumes, a student at same university – is amazed that actions have consequences. The demonstration was peaceful, until some demonstrators decided to break ranks and do exciting things instead.

    Protester Byron Stone says he was knocked to the ground by one of the horses.

    “I didn’t think they’d try to go through us like that so I stayed, and I got knocked over,” he said.

    “I fell down and then I was pretty scared.

    “I ended up curling up as much as I could, but I couldn’t curl up quick enough to get my left arm in, so it got trodden on.

    “I’ve got some horse prints on my arm… and my friends say I have another one on my shoulder.”

  73. Bruce in WA

    Having taught in classes, mainstream and gifted and talented, as well being involved in education for the past 40 years, I have reservations about there being an actual drop of IQ. However, I do suspect (though I haven’t looked into it deeply enough) that it is more a case that as a society we have not, since perhaps the 70s, demanded enough intellectual rigour from our students. Instead of demanding logical, reasoned analysis and judgment, we have elevated “feeling” and “seeming” to the rank of “being”. Opinion is now all too often accepted as fact, and everyone’s opinion — no matter how based in ignorance it may be — is “as good as anyone else’s”. Self-esteem has become a catch-cry for levelling. When I got a merit certificate at school, it was because I was dux of the class; at my grandkids’ school they get them for “attitude”, for “trying hard” and “for being a pleasant classmate”. At junior sport, everyone gets a trophy. In AusKick, they don’t have a winning team — or even keep score.

    Intellectuality is not looked up to, not seen as desirable and in fact often derided. Far, far better to be a football “hero”, a celebrity, a reality TV bogan or a Tasmanian senator … Is it any wonder then, that the actual test to determine an IQ rating is beyond many people, or that, in the vernacular, they just don’t give a rat’s arse about trying, or even learning to try?

  74. Gab

    “I’ve got some horse prints on my arm… and my friends say I have another one on my shoulder.”

    Good. That’s revenge for the attack on a horse in a previous protest. Horses talk, you know.

  75. Yeah, Patt – I mentioned Idiocracy… I joked that Abbott got the idea for his PPL after watching it.

  76. Southern Man

    Three possibilities
    Increased CO2 causes reductions in IQ
    Increased muslim immigration into western countries that measure IQ causes reductions in IQ
    Genetic entropy
    http://creation.com/genetic-entropy

  77. dan

    we have elevated “feeling” and “seeming” to the rank of “being”

    I can’t believe the nonsense being sprouted here. From Sumerian clay tablets to Socrates you find people saying that the youth of today are dumb, don’t study and want to be bogans.

    Look what happened to heart attack victims 30 years ago. They got a bit of oxygen and prayed. Treatments now are a world away. In any other field you want to name from paleontology, linguistics, brain surgery, microprocessors, performance of Sibelius’s violin concerto, people have built steadily on prior knowledge and skill just as fast as ever before.

    Regarding “feeling” and “seeming”, the increase in pointless university ‘education’ in gender studies and the growth in student numbers in universities and “universities” and so on is a sociological phenomenon, revealing a lack of judgement, not a lack of intelligence.

  78. struth

    Lack of a decent grasp of the english language hinders thinking.
    Not taught well enough in schools.

  79. will

    This old chestnut goes back to the beginning of IQ testing, many decades ago.

    The Low IQ outbreed the high IQ by a considerable margin. Simple and well known fact. However the actual average IQ does not appear to decrease over generations due to ‘regression to the mean”. High IQ people have stupid kids and low IQ people have smart kids in sufficient quantity to overcome the breeding bias. At least, that is the traditional explanation, and it appears to be supported by the evidence. I really don’t think people of the current generation are any less smart than their ancestors. This would appear to be a manufactured crisis, like so many others. Hysteria is alwasy so much more popular than the pedestrian tasks of everyday life.

    Of course, IQ testing is fraught with problems, as it reflects education and what is taught in education systems. In reality, it has one use and one use only. It predicts, with astonishing accuracy, whether you can succeed in higher education.

    The whole subject of race and IQ is an interesting one, and very much taboo. The averges are not flattering to blacks, and only moderately less flattering to whites as Asians take the bell curve even further north.

  80. dan

    The averges are not flattering to blacks, and only moderately less flattering to whites as Asians take the bell curve even further north.

    ..which is completely meaningless as intragroup variation is greater than intergroup variation.
    Unless you are a Caucasian intending to adopt a thousand Chinese babies this is not a phenomenon likely to make much difference to anyone’s life.

  81. Bruce in WA

    Regarding “feeling” and “seeming”, the increase in pointless university ‘education’ in gender studies and the growth in student numbers in universities and “universities” and so on is a sociological phenomenon, revealing a lack of judgement, not a lack of intelligence.

    Exactly my point, even if explained more elegantly than I.

  82. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From struth at 12:10 pm:

    “Yeah and Tony Abbott is a Rhodes scholar.”

    That’s good, yes.

    It demonstrates he has innate ability and the determination and discipline to put that to good purpose.

  83. Aynsley Kellow

    Bruce in WA:
    My daughter’s science teacher told me at her performance management interview this year (as we reflected on how well The Child was taking to getting actual grades and a sense of achievement – and failure) that they are discouraged from using red pen in marking their work because it is considered too aggressive. Seriously!

    I should add that Jim Flynn in the 1970s opposed the introduction of the BEd (his view was that teachers should get a BA or BSc – some knowledge to impart) and then a Dip Ed (to learn how to teach). He was not a believer in loading up too much on curriculum theory. He was also steadfastly opposed to grade inflation, which he saw as undermining the best chance working class kids had for upward mobility.

  84. struth

    Yes Mick , there are no excuses for Abbott, even though it may seem he can’t tell an enema from an enemy

  85. .

    Surely this is just better measurement?

    Look at what kids learnt in the 1950s to now.

    We can’t be dumber, our productivity is too high.

    The difference is, if you weren’t going to be a man of letters, they didn’t make you stay in school until you were 18. They let you get a job at something you were good at.

    ROTE learning the river systems of WA doesn’t make you smart…you can all tell me that in 30 seconds with google.

  86. …that they are discouraged from using red pen in marking their work because it is considered too aggressive.

    I’ve heard this a lot – it’s true. Absurd, but true.

  87. .

    Oh dear, oh dear! The young Macquarie “University” was at it’s risible worst then and it has not improved a jot since.

    It has actually (thank christ). Law graduates now get jobs as lawyers (that didn’t happen in the 1970s with their aggressively brain dead Marxist law “degrees”). An old (young) law prof from there got a good job at U Syd.

    If it was as bad as it was in the 1970s, it would have had to get shut down about ten or fifteen years ago.

  88. Demosthenes

    This would appear to be a manufactured crisis, like so many others.

    It’s not in the Daily Mail’s interest to have a story about the stability of average IQ scores.

    Believing the Daily Mail’s ‘journalists’ might be a good proxy for IQ tests, though. Anyone who read the article would have laughed, as I did, when I saw the basis of their ridiculous claims:

    Dr Nijenhuis studied the results of 14 intelligence studies conducted between 1884 and 2004 to come to his conclusion.

    Each study measured peoples’ reaction times – how long they took to press a button after being prompted. It is claimed that reaction time mirrors mental processing speed – so it reflects intelligence.

    So those sceptical of this, well done. A bit disappointing how many eugenicists and worse who perked up their ears, though.

  89. notafan

    Is Melanie Phillips ‘All Must Have Prizes’ relevant to this discussion? I have it at home to read.

  90. calli

    “I’ve got some horse prints on my arm… and my friends say I have another one on my shoulder.”

    Words fail…bet this Einstein believes the prints can be lifted and the offending horse punished…

    No oats for you, Trigger!

  91. Paul

    “Let’s talk about eugenics and the biology of intelligence.”

    No lets not, at least not in public. Some things remain off limits no matter how much truth they may contain.

  92. JohnA

    eb #1425778, posted on August 22, 2014 at 8:21 am

    Colour me sceptical! Ha, at this rate the Planet of the Apes is a certainty.
    While no doubt the witty amongst the Cat will come up with plenty of anecdotal and humourous quips to seemingly prove the case, I find it very hard to believe stuff like this. Maybe its all in the way its measured.

    Yeah, but … :-)

    It could be that despite all the standardisation, we are getting worse at doing IQ tests!

  93. Diogenes

    Mick Gold Coast QLD
    Oh dear, oh dear! The young Macquarie “University” was at it’s risible worst then and it has not improved a jot since.

    Indeed one of the reasons I dropped education & went into IT was the “war” being waged in the School of Ed between the Vygostskyites & Piageteans. I have done a few inservices at a few different unis (Sydney, Newcastle & Macq) and things have not improved much -if anything worse as trying to understand the brand of english being spoken is difficult. Ironically the best & most useful lecturer at Southern Cross (where I did my GradDipEd) was sacked at the end of our year.

    And totally agree with Bruce of WA with seeming & feeling elevated above logic & thing – using the Meyers Briggs(Jungian) definitions I am very much an INTJ and I am bewildered by the “feelers”. Just read the national curriculum – pick a curriculum any curriculum and you will see 30-50 of justification , opinion and general all round BS – and about 10 of actual (hopefully teachable) content.

    re the red pen true – my students hand in a electronic work accompanied by a pdf portfolio – I give recorded feedback. Much quicker (and I speak a lot clearer than I write) What is nice I can actually make chanegs to the work to show what they could have done to get the next higher grade :-) .

  94. Driftforge

    I read somewhere that the custom of cousin marriage costs Africa and the ME about 10 IQ points due to inbreeding. Does anyone know if it is true?

    Search out Sunshine Mary. All you would ever want to know about the effects of inbreeding and outbreeding and its distribution across Europe and further afield.

  95. Driftforge

    Is there any relationship between the changing demographics in those nations (U.K., Denmark & Australia) and declining IQ scores?

    Yes. Heritage plays the primary role in IQ. You can treat the host nation as a fixed modifier to inherited IQ averages. So the gap between Australia and the UK is around 2 points; you can expect that gap to be maintained across all heritages. If the gap in Australia between East Asian and Anglo is 6 points, you can expect that gap to be maintained (with a small amount of variation) in any nation.

  96. Spongebob Steve Pants

    Most “IQ” tests seem bunk anyway. I did a 5 minute one on Facebook and I am in the top 1 percentile apparently. They must know something I don’t.

  97. Combine_Dave

    These are all interesting hypothesis worthy of further study:

    - Does climate change cause lower IQ?Lower IQ results in a belief in AGW?
    - Does Internet use cause lower IQ? Reduction in reading/manual research skills-over reliance on zee google?
    - Do vaccinations reduce our intelligence? ^^ Are sick people smarter?
    - Does multiculturalism cause lower IQ? Bogan culture is mono-Australian right? Would depend on what cultures are being imported and from where.
    - Does economic growth reduce IQ levels? Lazier, richer and dumber?
    - Are increased house sizes making us stupid? ?
    - Is the higher rate of university graduates making us dumber? dumbing down the unis?
    - Are our increasing waistlines contributing to lower IQ? Actually being obese can reduce intelligence
    - Are mobile phones affecting our intelligence? Phone a friend?
    - Is WiFi turning us into morons? Phone message a friend?
    - Are we becoming dumber through increased television? hasn’t television been around long enough for its effect to be measured either way?
    - Is there a causal link between increased air travel and lower IQs? I think boats are a more likely candidate for transporting those of humble IQs
    - Does inflation lower IQ levels? Inverse relationship? Inflation goes up and IQ does down?
    - Does increased population reduce IQ? Depends who’s having the kids?
    - Are GM foods making is stupid? Could GM foods be modified to contain omega 3 to boost intelligence?

  98. Driftforge

    We can’t be dumber, our productivity is too high.

    Technology has advanced between now and then. It covers a multitude of sins.

  99. Driftforge

    In reality, it has one use and one use only. It predicts, with astonishing accuracy, whether you can succeed in higher education.

    Hardly. It is the single best predictor of life outcomes in the developed world. It basically measures your capacity to improve from where you start.

  100. .

    Each study measured peoples’ reaction times – how long they took to press a button after being prompted. It is claimed that reaction time mirrors mental processing speed – so it reflects intelligence.

    This is great if we’re training intelligence for F1 drivers. How does this relate to anyone’s study or work?

  101. Aristogeiton

    Funny how the climate sceptics aroud here embrace the measure of IQ, created ex nihilo, and in and of itself completely arbitrary.

  102. Driftforge

    This is great if we’re training intelligence for F1 drivers. How does this relate to anyone’s study or work?

    Apparently, quite strongly.

  103. Driftforge

    Funny how the climate sceptics aroud here embrace the measure of IQ, created ex nihilo, and in and of itself completely arbitrary.

    Funny how you contribute nothing to either discussion.

  104. Aristogeiton

    Driftforge
    #1426119, posted on August 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm
    [...]
    Funny how you contribute nothing to either discussion.

    I’m sceptical of both, and I’ve made my position on IQ clear.

  105. .

    IQ is nonsense. It is as valid as BMI.

  106. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1426123, posted on August 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm
    IQ is nonsense. It is as valid as BMI

    Yes. Thank you.

  107. Senile Old Guy

    IQ is correlated with indicators of academic and professional success. You can argue about what it measures but the correlations indicate that it measures something relevant. The problem with BMI that it does not distinguish between muscle mass and fat; if it did, it would be meaningful.

  108. .

    Look at how Binet formulated IQ.

    If you get more “stupid” as you age unless you constantly put yourself through formal education, then a falling IQ merely represents people living longer.

  109. Aristogeiton

    Senile Old Guy
    #1426127, posted on August 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm
    IQ is correlated with indicators of academic and professional success.

    As were/are, I’m sure, hat-wearing ca. 1950, short haircuts and cufflink ownership. So fucking what?

  110. JC

    I think it does measure broadly, but not much more than that. You can say that IQ may suggest a person is very bright, about average, or as thick as a door post. However I don’t think it measures more than that.

    Aria, shut up and stop annoying people you dick.

  111. Petros

    So it’s gone from 91.5 to 89 from 1950 to 2010. Wow. Excuse me if I don’t see a trend (given the standard deviation).

  112. Aristogeiton

    I seem to recall that Richard Feynman had an IQ of 120-something. That makes me smarter than he is I guess. /sarc

  113. JC

    Look at how Binet formulated IQ.

    If you get more “stupid” as you age unless you constantly put yourself through formal education, then a falling IQ merely represents people living longer.

    Dot, major scientific advances creativity…anything of that nature is done by the young… Usually young men, so ageing and IQ would correlate.

    I read that discoveries by people (usually men$over 45 falls off a cliff.

    Also consider that IQ falls with age, which is suggestive.

    Aria, go back open forum and fight with people there. Leave these threads to people without aspergers.

  114. MT Isa Miner

    Driftforge

    #1425879, posted on August 22, 2014 at 10:07 am

    There was also a recent study done in Taiwan that estimated the IQ drop rate there at around 1 point per generation.

    It’s one of the problems that we inherited with the second world war. We got so bound up in the evil of ‘eugenics’ that the study of the field cratered for 80 years, and only now is it starting to re-emerge.

    West Hunter is probably the best place for information on this, as a couple of the leading researchers in a small / forbidden field post there.

    Another useful place to get started is HBD Fundamentals, at Jayman’s blog. The stuff you can get away with as a Jamaican…

    Mate… what I have started to learn in my old age I amazing :) Bruce Charlton is another one that links reaction time decline since the victorians to IQ decline. These two are more chewing the fat about life and genetics and IQ than IQ straight up: HDBChick and Steve Sailer now at Unz too but at Unz you can find Rabz who is a straight up number cruncher and Evo and Proud who is a bit of both too. Maybe I’m teaching my grannie to suck eggs.

  115. .

    Petros
    #1426136, posted on August 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm
    So it’s gone from 91.5 to 89 from 1950 to 2010. Wow. Excuse me if I don’t see a trend (given the standard deviation).

    LOL

  116. JC

    I seem to recall that Richard Feynman had an IQ of 120-something. That makes me smarter than he is I guess. /sarc

    Firstly it doesn’t because you’re obviously lying like you lie and distort about most things. Secondly there’s no real big correlation in achievement for people ranging between 120 and 140 ish.

    Now stfu and go away, you moron.

  117. .

    Also consider that IQ falls with age, which is suggestive.

    It goes back to the formula.

    Binet was testing which children would “benefit from extra schooling”. Clearly a fifteen year old will be different to a seven year old, hence the formula. If he thought low IQ was a negative externality or high IQ was a positive externality, I don’t know.

  118. Aristogeiton

    The problem woth the test is that it is and was arbitrary. A general test of cognition, like some employers conduct, might be good in identifying mouth-breathers at the extreme low end, but little more. Assuming the premise the article, it may be that whatever thing or groups of things measured by IQ tests has declined in utility since some Frenchman made the test up as he saw fit more than 100 years ago. We are wealthier as a planet; I doubt that is becaise we are getting stupider in any sense relevant to modern economic life.

    Now of you want to talk about academic standards, that’s another matter…

  119. Aristogeiton

    *with; stupid phone.

  120. Tim Neilson

    Paul
    #1426099, posted on August 22, 2014 at 1:34 pm
    ‘“Let’s talk about eugenics and the biology of intelligence.”

    No lets not, at least not in public. Some things remain off limits no matter how much truth they may contain.’

    Supporter of section 18c are you? Sorry, but if something is true then trying to prohibit it from all public discussion is immoral and thoroughly dishonest.

  121. Wozzup

    My first reaction was that this might be related to the abysmally poor socialist driven education system in these countries. A system that not only promotes low achievement, it revels in it. After all, if we raise kids to under perform they will naturally become labor voters – Yeh for Labor! Or maybe not.

    But then on second thought, I realised that this is more likely to be mostly related to an ongoing problem in western societies – the middle classes and the meritocracy are having smaller families. While the under classes are not. Combine this with large influxes from 3rd world countries and the results are all to evident. We have dived head first into the shallow end of the gene pool as the less intelligent take over.

    Add to this the associated problem with loss of culture. It is clear to many thinkers in the field, who have studied national development that the most precious thing a nation has is its culture. That certainly goes for Australia. Not the iron and coal in the ground or the wool on the sheep’s back. Our culture which promotes endeavour and success. Or used to. Now we just tax it.

    Our culture is why Australia is not Haiti. Why Singapore is not Sarawak and why Hong Kong is not Butan. The common thread with these incidentally is our history of being a part of the British empire which instilled values that worked then and which work now. But unlike some other countries, (and in common with most western European countries) Australia is embracing a toxic and unworkable form of multiculturalism that is rapidly destroying the dominant culture that made us great. We are told we must adjust to accommodate those who come here – not the other way around as in the past. Our culture is dying. And with it the things that made us perform and succeed in the world.

    As an aside culture is also why something like 25-30% of all Nobel Prizes ever awarded have been awarded to Jews who are no more than 0.02% of the earth’s population. Muslims on the other hand have been awarded perhaps a couple of Nobel prizes in total. Logic, cause and effect and scientific inquiry does not sit well with a culture that believes in “in Shallah” – things happen because god wills it. Proof if proof be needed of the importance of culture in human endeavour. And I surmise in IQ scores.

  122. Habib

    I’ve been saying for ages that humanity peaked in the late ’50s, and it’s all been downhill since. The idiotic are being encouraged to breed, and thanks to OH&S, free healthcare and no wars of any size they’re proliferating, while the intelligent and productive are penalised and persecuted. I think the left are too stupid to have done this deliberately, it’s yet another example of the inevitable unintended consequences of their moronic marxist meddling. We’re doomed to live in a Big Brother nation, and I don’t mean the Eric Blair version. Boganic imbecility is now a subject of admiration.

  123. Driftforge

    So it’s gone from 91.5 to 89 from 1950 to 2010. Wow. Excuse me if I don’t see a trend (given the standard deviation).

    Might want to stop and consider what n is in this instance.

    There’s enough IQ tests done to pick out the 0.2 point difference between men and women, and the 10% difference in standard deviation between the two groups. Which both explains why more of the really intelligent people are men, and why most of the really stupid ones are as well.

    In that context, measuring a statistically significant drop of 2.5 points is arbitrarily easy.

  124. Gab

    Boganic imbecility is now a subject of admiration.

    to wit: “reality” TV shows.

  125. Driftforge

    Maybe I’m teaching my grannie to suck eggs.

    Nah, I’m not that old. But yes, there’s a whole array of informed and uninformed speculation arising in this area as it starts to poke its head out from the prohibition.

  126. Driftforge

    I’ve been saying for ages that humanity peaked in the late ’50s,

    Unfortunately, that might realistically be the 1850′s.

  127. Robert B

    Each study measured peoples’ reaction times – how long they took to press a button after being prompted. It is claimed that reaction time mirrors mental processing speed – so it reflects intelligence

    I did a Times IQ test and got 132. Multiple choice questions where I answered 33 questions in half an hour. I got two wrong.

    I would have done poorly in any IQ test using reaction times. I know this because one of the questions that I got wrong was because I accidentally hit the wrong button in the multiple choices. So I am pretty sure that you can take this whole research with a pinch of salt and flush it down the toilet.

  128. Andrew

    Aria, go back open forum and fight with people there. Leave these threads to people without aspergers.

    As if an Aspie would behave THAT badly!

  129. cohenite

    No lets not, at least not in public. Some things remain off limits no matter how much truth they may contain.

    Could you elaborate why we should not discuss eugenics and biological differences within humanity? I note this attempt was castigated in the usual ways.

  130. I did a Times IQ test and got 132. Multiple choice questions where I answered 33 questions in half an hour. I got two wrong.

    That’s not an formal IQ test then. A lot of things are called IQ tests which are not formally so.

    If you want to look deeper into the basis of IQ testing and the heritable portion of it, find out about g. Strangely enough, it tends to show up most in the portions of the test that you can’t easily train up for.

    There is a measured progress on each of the standardised tests that comes from education. This is known and able to be factored out.

    Interestingly, adult IQ is far more heritable than child IQ; education makes far more of a difference in the curve people follow to end up at their adult IQ than it does to the end point.

    Another little known tidbit is that your IQ continues to increase while your body grows. So typically, a male will reach his full IQ by 21, a female by 18; just as they do with height.

    Weight is a different matter :)

  131. Louis Hissink

    Horsehocks – intelligence is the ability to discern the essential from the inessential. Brain processing speed is no measure of intelligence either. Perhaps they have measured ‘erudition’ ? John Ray on Greenie watch would be the person to pontificate on this result – right in his bailiwick.

  132. Splatacrobat

    I read somewhere that the custom of cousin marriage costs Africa and the ME about 10 IQ points due to inbreeding. Does anyone know if it is true?

    The science is settled on this one.

  133. cohenite

    Inbreeding definitely makes you dumber; look at the Royal family.

  134. .

    In that context, measuring a statistically significant drop of 2.5 points is arbitrarily easy.

    Please stop abusing statistics.

    So I am pretty sure that you can take this whole research with a pinch of salt and flush it down the toilet.

    Exactly. This and most IQ stuff is on par with Ansell’s Sex survey. Actually the sex survey probably has more statistical validity.

    Another little known tidbit is that your IQ continues to increase while your body grows. So typically, a male will reach his full IQ by 21, a female by 18; just as they do with height.

    That’s mostly because this is the time you are being formally educated.

    Do you know how IQ is calculated?

  135. .

    Pretty strong evidence that IQ is a load of shit:

    http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/12/19/2124222/iq-a-myth-study-says

    “The idea that intelligence can be measured by a single number — your IQ — is wrong, according to a recent study led by researchers at the University of Western Ontario (abstract). The study, published in the journal Neuron on Wednesday, involved 100,000 participants around the world taking 12 cognitive tests, with a smaller sample of the group undergoing simultaneous brain-scan testing. ‘When we looked at the data, the bottom line is the whole concept of IQ — or of you having a higher IQ than me — is a myth,’ said Dr. Adrian Owen, the study’s senior investigator… ‘There is no such thing as a single measure of IQ or a measure of general intelligence.’”

  136. Aristogeiton

    .
    #1426269, posted on August 22, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    I’m fucking speechless. Some BS Daily Mail article on IQ is posted, and we’re now full howling retard on race theory and eugenics? This place is an embarrassment.

  137. .

    Yes, only from a blog, but this is a good review of the literature of why hereditary IQ is nonsense:

    http://menghublog.wordpress.com/2013/11/03/transracially-adopted-intermediate-iq-hereditarian-nonsense/

    Very well researched. Almost a data review in itself as well.

  138. JC

    Newspaper article:

    http://www.thestar.com/life/2012/12/19/iq_a_myth_study_says.html

    Dot, the say it doesn’t matter, but their findings infer otherwise.

  139. JC

    Dot

    Human intelligence is a very complex field and I agree that a single number doesn’t offer everything. However the number is strongly suggestive how a person my climb the income and professional ladder in the West… even the personal side.

    Our brains are wired by evolution to our environment, which is what made humans the most adaptable animals on the planet. We can basically live and survive in anything thrown at us. To say our bodies and brains aren’t adapted to our environment is to ignore the reality.

    Let me bet that a Japanese will not win the sprint Olympics over the next 100 years. Let me also suggest that a Japanese person will win a Nobel prize over that time.

  140. Tel

    This is the problem with using global averages. Turns out most people are exactly the same as they always have been.

    Just the ACCC are dragging down the average; not as big a deal as it looks.

  141. Tel

    By the way, this link is obligatory on any IQ discussion, don’t care if you have seen it before.

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/g.htm

  142. Please stop abusing statistics

    Ah.. humour from the mathematically challenged. Really, when you have no idea what you are going on about, starting from a preconceived idea of what you want to be true and googling for correlating articles is not a great way to either learn or make a point. If you don’t understand why the number of samples makes a difference to statistical significance, please, stop prognosticating, follow some of the many useful links up thread, and stop spreading leftist crud.

    Human intelligence is a very complex field and I agree that a single number doesn’t offer everything. However the number is strongly suggestive how a person my climb the income and professional ladder in the West… even the personal side.

    Quite correct.

  143. By the way, this link is obligatory on any IQ discussion, don’t care if you have seen it before.

    Yes, that’s not a bad starting point either.

  144. MT Isa Miner

    Driftforge

    #1425879, posted on August 22, 2014 at 10:07 am

    Shoulda said, you are right, Drift, I’ve been reading these blokes a few years now. Me and google-ha ha.

  145. Talleyrand

    That Insiders programme has a lot to answer for.

  146. DrBeauGan

    Any psychologist who can show that intelligence doesn’t exist (or comes in many forms, some indistinguishable from stupidity) can be sure of support from lefties and the thick. BIRM.

  147. Petros

    Does an IQ test return the same result each time on an individual (at approximately the same age of course)? Do we know how many times the subjects were tested? Were their scores averaged? What is the typical range of scores for an individual? The usual trick of having a small change appear large by having a y axis only show a narrow range has been used so I’m sceptical about the study.

  148. .

    Driftforge
    #1426298, posted on August 22, 2014 at 6:50 pm
    Please stop abusing statistics

    Ah.. humour from the mathematically challenged.

    Do not talk to your betters like this.

  149. .

    JC you are correct, but IQ was measured to do something completely different for what it is being used for. It also is unfit for the job:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

    If you don’t like wiki – there are plenty of references.

    The upshot of that article is to play video games, really.

  150. .

    If you don’t understand why the number of samples makes a difference to statistical significance

    Seriously pal?

    The study I quoted had 100,000 participants.

  151. .

    PS

    If you want to note the number of samples, please look at the article on hereditary IQ. It has many references for repeated experiments.

  152. Leigh Lowe

    Does an IQ test return the same result each time on an individual (at approximately the same age of course)?

    No.
    If an individual is tested too frequently he/she will improve the IQ score.
    It is not that you get the same questions but you learn about the style of reasoning to get through the questions and become slightly better at it.
    There is a time frame within re-testing is invalid (but I am not sure what that time frame is).

  153. Someone here said “Yes, only from a blog, but this is a good review of the literature of why hereditary IQ is nonsense”.

    But i’m afraid it is a mischaracterization of my blog article. I never said the transracial adoption studies refute the hereditarian hypothesis of racial genetic differences in IQ. I said, instead, that the transracial adoption studies have a lot of missing data, crucial information, that without them, we cannot conclude either in favor of the hereditarian position or in favor of the environmentalist position. It’s a draw match.

    On the other hand, the adoption studies support the hereditarian position, but since they were sampling white children, it is not generalizable to blacks, and thus tell us nothing about which hypothesis is the winner here. Stronger data is needed.

  154. Tel

    It could be that despite all the standardisation, we are getting worse at doing IQ tests!

    When you look at the incredibly unintuitive iPhone user interface, with bits of useful functionality hidden in the most unlikely places, you start to realise just how many braincells the average human is devoting to dealing with complete crap. I’m not even going to get into BAS statements and worker’s comp, yet another completely pointless change to train and bus timetables, and trying to figure out if your electricity company is ripping you off with their “smart” metres.

    Little wonder so few people can be bothered with IQ tests.

  155. .

    Sir Ken on IQ and testing:

    http://simonkidd.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/ken-robinson-on-intelligence-iq-testing-and-sat/

    Ironically, Alfred Binet, one of the creators of the IQ test, intended the test to serve precisely the opposite function. In fact, he originally designed it (on commission from the French government) exclusively to identify children with special needs so they could get appropriate forms of schooling. He never intended it to identify degrees of intelligence or ‘mental worth.’ In fact, Binet noted that the scale he created ‘does not permit the measure of intelligence, because intellectual qualities are not superposable, and therefore cannot be measured as linear surfaces are measured.’

    Nor did he ever intend it to suggest that a person could not become more intelligent over time. ‘Some recent thinkers,’ he said, ‘[have affirmed] that an individual’s intelligence is a fixed quantity, a quantity that cannot be increased. We must protest and react against this brutal pessimism; we must try to demonstrate that it is founded on nothing.’

    Still, some educators and psychologists took – and continue to take – IQ numbers to absurd lengths. In 1916, Lewis Terman of Stanford University published a revision of Binet’s IQ test. Known as the Stanford-Binet test, now in its fifth version, it is the basis of the modern IQ test. It is interesting to note, though, that Terman had a sadly extreme view of human capacity. These are his words, from the textbook The Measurement of Intelligence: ‘Among laboring men and servant girls there are thousands like them feebleminded. They are the world’s “hewers of wood and drawers of water.” And yet, as far as intelligence is concerned, the tests have told the truth . . . No amount of school instruction will ever make them intelligent voters or capable voters in the true sense of the word.’

    Unfortunately, if it isn’t an ageing population artificially bringing down IQ, it really might be a reverse of the Flynn effect.

    This would seem very bizzare since it would contradict the effect of nutrition and economic development which has the same basis – you cannot develop economically until you have adequate nutrition and move away from pedigree collapse since you will not be able to produce skilled workers (Behrman and Deolalikar [1988]).

    Then we have to question if national income or productivity is being measured correctly as well as honestly.

  156. .

    I’m not even going to get into BAS statements and worker’s comp, yet another completely pointless change to train and bus timetables, and trying to figure out if your electricity company is ripping you off with their “smart” metres.

    The FOFA reforms are worse.

  157. Intelligence – and individual difference in intelligence – is not a myth.

    That’s just left-wing postmodern horseshit. Of course there are problems with testing, and there have been ever since the first IQ score. It’s simply not true that everyone has equal natural propensity for mental abilities. It’s not true that everyone is of equal intelligence.

  158. The report is nonsense, particularly where Australia is concerned. Ask Mensa, the ‘club’ that specialises in finding the ‘Top 2% of IQ people as members. Mensa uses well researched and well established IQ tests and to date have used those based on mid-20C norms. Those norms have indeed changed and Mensa is currently rolling out a new and up to date test across the country. It is doing so because the average IQ in Australia has risen. It is now 98.

  159. Robert B

    There is no doubt that people are are born with different levels innate intelligence. There also shouldn’t be any doubt that nobody makes %100 use of what they were born with. The old F. Scott Fitzgerald saying sums it up. “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function”.

    We should be concentrating on getting everyone to get the most out of themselves and then judging them on what they give society in return. I see this IQ debate as a con by parents of dumb white kids who still want to see them do well.

  160. boy on a bike

    What idiot extended the red line out another 100 years?

  161. .

    Yes, that’s true, but it is fairly asinine.

    What I suspect is really happening is that the data is getting a fat tail (likely kurtosis, or “skew”).

    If you lop off the bottom 5% of the population who are not, under a medical definition, intellectually disabled, then you might find the average IQ has actually gone up – even with an ageing population.

  162. .

    I was replying specifically to Aussie. However I stand by my comments about IQ actually rising.

  163. caveman

    Fark they going to be some dumb units in 2110, the graph must crash from that point as they would be to stupid to know where to put it in order to procreate.

  164. Clam Chowdah

    The mean IQ of a high IQ nation lowers as you import more people from low mean countries and disincentivise the population through welfare.

    WHO THE FUCK COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT???

  165. Matthew

    Tel, I remember reading ‘Crime in the Hood’ from that site years ago. Hilarious, yet disturbing.

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/hood.htm

  166. And tell me, Steve – what do you believe is measured by an IQ score?
    You can discuss either Binet or WISC.

  167. ACTOldFart

    For the genetic determinists among us, here is an excerpt from “Idiocracy”, to give a feeling for the thing:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8

  168. .

    Clam

    We’re also getting older. Do you know how IQ is calculated and what it actually measures?

  169. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    When you look at the incredibly unintuitive iPhone user interface, with bits of useful functionality hidden in the most unlikely places

    iPhone, Tel? Easy peasy. I got talked into a wacko new SmartPhone.
    You should try that for non-intuitive OTT irritation. Created by low IQ geeks. And let’s not go to Windows 8 or the latest in Word; both highly efficient hair-tearers and brain-scramblers.

  170. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    We’re also getting older.

    Don’t be horrible, Dot. :)

  171. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    But then you have Kiwis and Irish.

    Oi! Nuff of dat.

    Da Hairy Irish Ape and his ilk are top class imports.
    Not married to a Kiwi, but I am told they make fine husbands too.

  172. Wozzup

    “Pretty strong evidence that IQ is a load of shit:

    http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/12/19/2124222/iq-a-myth-study-says

    We can play dueling references if you like but there are equally plenty of studies that show that low IQ is associated with poor performance in life, low outcomes in education and even with global inequality.

    The author of a major study correlated IQ in various nations with 12 different measures of national performance such as the Human Development Index and the Gender Related Development Index. These are well recognized methods of ranking nations performance. It found a strong correlation on all 12.

    In other words, low IQ = poor national performance and high levels of inequality across nations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    The following is deeply controversial but never really contested in a scientific way. Most of the criticism comes from leftist types who simply do not like the idea on ideological grounds.

    In fact they do not even like to admit that such a thing as race exist but recent studies of IQ also show consistent rankings for race. Certain races perform poorly by comparison with others. Some perform consistently much higher.

    The IQ scale is by convention standardised for European males ie a score of 100 is the average for that group. But on this scale the amongst best performers were – East Asians / Chinese. The highest performers of all were Ashkenazi Jews. Europeans were third in the list. Below them were various other racial groups – Latino then black Africans further down again. A controversial result for Australia was that Australian Aborigines had on average the lowest IQs.Many experts have tested it. MY impression is that the basic studies have never been faulted.

    However there is dispute over whether this difference is genetic or cultural or more likely a mix and so forth. But the basic results are pretty well accepted amongst those who specialize in the field, including quite a few who initially set out to disprove it as they did not like the idea.

    Most seem to accept that IQ has a strong genetic element even if other factors play a role. For example Princeton University reported that the American Psychological Association in a 1996 report stated that the US racial IQ gap (between racial groups) was not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, nor simply reflect differences in socio-economic status, but that no adequate explanation of it had so far been given. In other words they would not debunk the studies but did not want o go so far as to support them (A typically cowardly response but due no doubt to political correctness)

    Politicians will not like the idea and the left will scream blue murder but we would be well advised as a nation if we were serious about our future to have regard to these studies in our immigration policies. But of course that will never happen will it. We are all happy little Vegemites. All Australian and all equal – even when demonstrably we are not.

    The following is just a quick over view. Plenty of other links if you Google IQ and race including some excellent ones on Youtube.

    http://www.rense.com/general79/dut.htm

  173. ProEng

    There, certainly, is evidence in state and federal elections that voters have become less intelligent (added to the parliamentarians being less competent). The more steeply declining trend started in 1972 with the election of the Whitlam government culmination with terrible governments in all states in association with the worst federal governments (lead by Rudd and Gillard) in Australian history. The election of Palmer, Bandt, Wilkie, the PUP senators and Green senators in the last federal election shows that the declining trend has not yet turned.

  174. JakartaJaap

    Wozzup, I wouldn’t go bagging Sarawak like that. Pleasant place indeed. And Singapore is what it is because of location, location, location. Nothing else. I remember in the early 2000s the Singapore PM bemoaning the dispute they were then having with Malaysia and Indonesia, along the lines that if they were parked somewhere out in the South Pacific they wouldn’t be having these problems. Probably true and also true that they would still be the small Malay fishing village they were when Raffles took charge.

  175. Clam Chowdah

    So there you go, it is official, the baby boomers are the smartest of those still on the planet.

    No, that would be the Ashkenazis, who have the highest mean IQ of any racial group.

  176. Wozzup

    “And Singapore is what it is because of location, location, location. Nothing else. I remember in the early 2000s the Singapore PM bemoaning the dispute they were then having with Malaysia and Indonesia, along the lines that if they were parked somewhere out in the South Pacific they wouldn’t be having these problems. Probably true and also true that they would still be the small Malay fishing village they were when Raffles took charge.”

    True that location is important but I disagree that this is the whole story. The point I was making was about the importance of culture in shaping societies and economies. If it were not for the culture introduced by Raffles, Singapore (i.e. a Singapore located where it now is) it would also still probably be nothing more than a fishing village.

    The point was one that has been elaborated upon a lot by Daniel Hannan (whom I was paraphrasing) that the ideas and institutions we consider essential to maintaining and preserving our freedoms—individual rights, private property, the rule of law, and the institutions of representative government are all ones that initially derived in modern times from Britain. (love it or hate it) Not sure for how much longer though.

    If you look at economic development measures published by bodies like the World Economic Forum, the above characteristics (and others) are important ones they measure and rank to determine if a particular country rates well or poorly. These things also contribute to economic performance besides the other factors I discussed.

    http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780062231734

  177. Non-selective immigration, paying people of welfare to breed, leftist social policy, which has created a hostile, violent society in which people are afraid of the long-term commitment that parenthood requires, and, finally, economic uncertainty for everyone except the wealthy and the aforesaid welfare recipients.

    I know very few breeders but many DINKs and SINKs (double/single income, no kids). All the wrong people are breeding and that is lowering average IQ. A genuinely conservative government (not the pretend one we have at the moment) would introduce more selective immigration, stop paying people on welfare to breed and recognise that the government, in today’s world, has to take on more and more duties as a surrogate parent. We will never go back to having one parent at home to raise the children. Government has to recognise this and adapt to change.

  178. Chris M

    I know very few breeders

    It’s the circles you move in. I am and know of many prolific conservative breeders. :) I think the ‘INKS are more leftists and atheist, personally I don’t know many. Doesn’t appeal to me at all.

  179. wreckage

    Clam Chowdah: you’re right, it’s totally weird, nobody could have predicted it.

  180. john constantine

    What if IQ tests cull the herd, creating convoys of people selected to do well on tests like IQ tests?.

    The standard of the herds thundering out of australias universities doesn’t seem to be lifting.

    Plenty of people [and i am one] that test abysmally, yet seem to function and contribute quite well.

    The welfare industry skews attention and funding to the absolute bottom end, leaving few models for those with focuses on aspects of the real world outside the general IQ test areas.

    In a world where a pocket device allows you to store and recall more raw data than any of histories greats were ever exposed to, opportunities and niches should be opening up for those that miss the IQ test score cutoff, but are competent to push buttons with the best of them.

    The focus on competencies rather than theories had a flurry late last century, but seems to have been aborted by crony socialism.

  181. Wozzup

    The political Left has always hated merit as a basis for anything. So they have gone to lengths to try to exclude it from our education system. Perhaps this is because they understand that if merit is allowed to be the basis for decision making they will be the ones left on the cutting room floor.

    This goes double for the leftist so called “intellectuals” who constantly appear on the ABC to bleat their views. Sadly most of them cannot think their way out of a paper bag. The prime reason for this it seems to me is that most leftists prefer ideology to reason or evidence. This is a feature of the Marxist way of thought.

    In fact they are virtually impervious to facts, they are so incapable of thinking in these terms. As someone who has worked in the centre of Government on policy I know that the usual response of Leftist Ministers and their advisors to facts is to cover their eyes and ears and go LA LA LA LA LA very loudly till it goes away, especially when the facts contradict their opinions and ideology.(And incidentally this is why when you contradict them they get personal and go on the attack – they cannot use facts to argue their position).

    And perhaps this is another reason for the decline. They have passed this way or thinking into our culture. The emphasis on the belief that leftist ideas, combined with warm and fuzzy feelings trump reason does not play well in an IQ test.

    Personally perhaps I like P.J. O’Rourke’s comment about lefties best of all:

    “Think what evil creeps liberals would be if their plans to enfeeble the individual, exhaust the economy, impede the rule of law, and cripple national defence were guided by a coherent ideology instead of smug ignorance.”

  182. faceache

    Evening all. I am a bus driver with a client base that during working hours is mainly pensioners, retirees and welfare recipients of one kind or another. The default fare schedule on our fare computers is the “concession” rate. The difference between during the day and worker commuting times is stark. I can feel the IQ rate plummet after 8am. The level of politeness and manners drops off markedly. The number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic for their fares rises dramatically. As does the number of people who hop on the bus and aren’t quite sure where they are going ( I kid you not).

    Towards midday the extent of drug and alcohol dependence is manifest. About twice a day I have people hop on board who expect they have the right to a free ride ‘cos they have lost their wallet. Again. And again. They don’t think I would remember them losing their wallet every week or so. They just get used to being people who get a free ride in all kinds of ways. The number of mothers with multiple badly behaved children is on the rise. The number of partners of these mothers who think it is unmanly to help with the pram or the children is bloody shocking. If half these people have had an education it is very well hidden. Hygiene takes a dive between 8am and 5 pm as well. I shudder to think that most of these people have the right to vote.But.. ya gotta love ‘em. Don’t you?

  183. Percy

    An accurate summation of modern Australian western society there faceache

  184. faceache

    How did I manage to not mention all the obese people. The seats aren’t big enough anymore.

  185. Percy

    Liberty Quote-

    Spare flab means spare dollars. If someone wants welfare on my taxes, I want them to be lean and hungry.
    — Sleetmute

  186. Bruce of Newcastle

    From Powerline this morning:

    What Are Your Kids Learning In School?

    Easy to see why IQ is going down. That stuff would turn anyone’s brain to mush.

  187. .

    The author of a major study correlated IQ in various nations with 12 different measures of national performance such as the Human Development Index and the Gender Related Development Index. These are well recognized methods of ranking nations performance. It found a strong correlation on all 12.

    In other words, low IQ = poor national performance and high levels of inequality across nations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality

    The following is deeply controversial but never really contested in a scientific way. Most of the criticism comes from leftist types who simply do not like the idea on ideological grounds.

    Please take a remedial right wing death beast course.

    You fail to see the irony of the above? Okay.

    I agree with faceache, I’ve worked in service industries, direct to market sales of farm produce and his post made me chuckle and think of some “special” people I’ve dealt with.

    There is a lot of hysteria however over a fall in IQ of a couple of points (considering the formulation means it can fall due to ageing – whilst not becoming any dumber). Somehow now we need to close off the borders to stop welfare addled seventh generation Australians from breeding.

    Once again this is said with no sense of irony.

  188. .

    Bruce of Newcastle
    #1427441, posted on August 24, 2014 at 7:19 am
    From Powerline this morning:

    What Are Your Kids Learning In School?

    Easy to see why IQ is going down. That stuff would turn anyone’s brain to mush.

    Once again this is right. As with the comments about fat people.

    This is why private, non compulsory learning is best. You get discovery learning etc without the loaded assumptions the left put on it, they create thinkers, but also they still value knowledge of facts and objectivity (whilst appreciating subjectivity) but also the classics.

    See John Taylor Gatto on the “12 secrets of elite private schools” or the “14 themes of elite private schools”.

  189. john constantine

    Mates lad started his apprenticeship last year at a car dealerships workshop.

    17, rebuilt his own vehicle ready for when he can drive, and has his own backyard workshop, doing after hours small farm machinery repairs.

    Someone from the bottom half of the acedemic stream starts his climb up the ladder through the apprenticeship system.

    In todays australia however, the high IQ better sort have lying in wait for the lad stifling piles of paperwork-should his backyard workshop enjoy any success, they will force him back into the classroom, to deal with flurries of ‘for his own good’ forms, reports and paperwork.

    His option was to just become a client of the welfare system, where victims are money to the dumbing down ‘shut up and think the way we tell you’ crony socialist trail bosses, driving the herd on the long march to socialism.

  190. .

    The harder he tries, the more he will be punished.

  191. DrBeauGan

    There are three mental attributes which are often confused. The first is intelligence which is the capacity for discerning structure or pattern, to make connections. The second is neuroticism, the ability to soak up uncritically the conventional wisdom of the tribe, articulated or not. And the third is rat cunning, the talent for manipulating others. The educational system much prefers the second.

    IQ tests generally try to assign a score to measure the first. A serious problem arises from the impracticality of assessing the competence of someone smarter than you: most psychologists have IQs of around 130 so they cannot discriminate between two adults who are brighter than they are and may assign scores lower than 130 for getting the ‘wrong’ answer. They are generally better with children, but not always. When I was ten I was asked ‘which star is closest to the Earth?’ I said ‘the sun’ and got told I was wrong, it was alpha centauri. I retorted that even if they excluded the sun it wasn’t alpha, it was currently proxima. I didn’t get the mark. It doesn’t pay to know more than teach.

  192. DrBeauGan

    Richard Feynman was once sitting in the front row of a lecture on AI given by Doug Hofstadter. Doug wrote up the sequence: 1, 2, 4, 8, and asked ‘what comes next?’ Feynman shot his hand up to answer. ‘Zero.’ he said. ‘And zero after that, zeros all the way.’

    ‘Why that answer?’ Doug asked, perplexed.

    ‘Because it’s the simplest,’ said Feynman with an evil grin.

  193. will

    When I was ten I was asked ‘which star is closest to the Earth?’ I said ‘the sun’ and got told I was wrong, it was alpha centauri. I retorted that even if they excluded the sun it wasn’t alpha, it was currently proxima. I didn’t get the mark. It doesn’t pay to know more than teach.

    Must have been a very smart or widely read 10 year old. Mostly Azimov I would guess. Didn’t play cricket much either?

  194. DrBeauGan

    I got hooked on Astronomy and sf from an early age, including asimov. Hitting balls with sticks and throwing ball struck me as dumb and still does. I preferred combat games to team games, I thought learning how to kill people might come in handy one day. It hasn’t so far but there’s still time.

    I was a horrible kid and I’ve got worse. :)

  195. Clam Chowdah

    http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/opinion-jason-richwine-95353.html

    Jason Richwine is, of course, the scientists who was villified for noting that mean IQ in California is dropping as a result of immigration.

  196. Clam Chowdah

    Charles Murray (yes him) discusses Richwine’s misfortunes at the hands of the Borg:

    http://m.nationalreview.com/article/348323/defense-jason-richwine

  197. Clam Chowdah

    In academia, only the tenured can safely write on these topics. Assistant professors know that their chances of getting tenure will be close to zero if they publish politically incorrect findings on climate change, homosexuality, race differences, gender differences, or renewable energy. Their chances will not be much higher if they have published anything with a distinctly conservative perspective of any sort. To borrow George Orwell’s word, they will have proved themselves to be guilty of crimethink.

    Everybody who does research in the social sciences or biology is aware how treacherous the environment has become, and so scholars take defensive measures. They bury important findings in obscurely worded technical articles lest they be discovered by reporters and lead to disastrous publicity. A few years ago, a brilliant young evolutionary geneticist publicly announced he would not pursue his work on the evolution of brain size after his preliminary results were attacked as crimethink. Others have deliberately refrained from discussing race or gender differences in works that ordinarily would have called for treating those topics. When I chided the author of a successful book for avoiding some obvious issues involving race, he quite rightly replied that if he had included anything about race, everything else in the book would have been ignored.

    These examples are only the visible tip of a much broader problem of self-censorship in the questions that scholars are willing to ask. I am not referring just to scholars who might otherwise engage the taboo topics directly. We can have no idea of the full extent to which important avenues of inquiry in economics, sociology, genetics, and neuroscience that indirectly touch on the taboo topics are also self-censored by scholars who fear becoming pariahs.

    From the Murray article…

  198. wreckage

    The problem is we’ve decided that IQ is the new measure for Being a Good Human; after all it’s Science, and therefore Right. But we also know that racism is Bad. Therefore is IQ is distributed racially then knowing that makes you a Bad person, so it must never be assessed.

    Look, IQ isn’t that important. Nor does it make people moral (contrary to the wishful-thinking notion that if everyone had a good education they would turn into Good People).

    Culture determines morality. It also determines productivity. IQ is just a nice thing to have.

  199. Clam Chowdah

    Right. There’s no link between unproductive, high crime, low social responsibility societies and the fact that they have a lower mean IQ.

  200. wreckage

    First up, those kinds of situations have been shown to lower IQ outright, so if low IQ causes poverty and violence, it’s a nasty little feedback loop.

    Second, I’m not saying there’s no correlation at a wider level, just that the question is taboo because of unjustifiable assumptions at the individual level.

  201. Fisky

    The thing to remember about IQ is that everyone believes in it, but not everyone admits to believing in it all of the time. So Leftists very often seize gleefully on IQ studies “proving” that Leftist voters score higher on IQ than non-Leftist voters, but then claim IQ methodology doesn’t apply to any other scenario. They seem to think IQ was only invented in order compare intelligence based on political affiliations, and no other association.

  202. Fisky

    Right. There’s no link between unproductive, high crime, low social responsibility societies and the fact that they have a lower mean IQ.

    Correlation is another area of analysis that is negated by libertarian ideology, along with marginal analysis and cost-benefit analyses. These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.

  203. Clam Chowdah

    The thing to remember about IQ is that everyone believes in it, but not everyone admits to believing in it all of the time. So Leftists very often seize gleefully on IQ studies “proving” that Leftist voters score higher on IQ than non-Leftist voters, but then claim IQ methodology doesn’t apply to any other scenario. They seem to think IQ was only invented in order compare intelligence based on political affiliations, and no other association.

    This irony has been commented on occasionally by John Derbyshire and other Taki alumnus.

  204. Clam Chowdah

    Second, I’m not saying there’s no correlation at a wider level, just that the question is taboo because of unjustifiable assumptions at the individual level.

    You’re absolutely right. There are of course high IQ individuals in all societies. I don’t think IQ should factor specifically into our immigration intake. I was just making a gross generalisation for the sheer transgressive heteronormative pleasure of it. Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes!

  205. wreckage

    I was just making a gross generalisation for the sheer transgressive heteronormative pleasure of it.

    Hail fellow contrarian, and well met!

  206. john constantine

    If IQ is so great, then how come the ABC, staffed by self-proclaimed IQ elites, consists of an entire convoy of heavily self medicated depressives, occupying ‘sick buildings’, purging themselves of fad diet after fad diet, believing in nothing, but falling for everything?.

    Do they really swallow the facetweet meme that one score on one IQ test means you are entitled to never have to get your shit together?.

    Is the angry depressive abc mockery of ‘happy dumb rednecks’ who fail to ‘get’ the great moral challenges of our times actually a revealing insight into the failure of IQ tests to indicate a basic grasp of sound life skills?.

  207. MT Isa Miner

    faceache

    #1427329, posted on August 24, 2014 at 12:37 am

    Evening all. I am a bus driver with a client base that during working hours is mainly pensioners, retirees and welfare recipients of one kind or another. The default fare schedule on our fare computers is the “concession” rate. The difference between during the day and worker commuting times is stark. I can feel the IQ rate plummet after 8am. The level of politeness and manners drops off markedly. The number of people who cannot do simple arithmetic for their fares rises dramatically. As does the number of people who hop on the bus and aren’t quite sure where they are going ( I kid you not).

    Towards midday the extent of drug and alcohol dependence is manifest. About twice a day I have people hop on board who expect they have the right to a free ride ‘cos they have lost their wallet. Again. And again. They don’t think I would remember them losing their wallet every week or so. They just get used to being people who get a free ride in all kinds of ways. The number of mothers with multiple badly behaved children is on the rise. The number of partners of these mothers who think it is unmanly to help with the pram or the children is bloody shocking. If half these people have had an education it is very well hidden. Hygiene takes a dive between 8am and 5 pm as well. I shudder to think that most of these people have the right to vote.But.. ya gotta love ‘em. Don’t you?

    One of the younger kids loved to ride the bus when we went to the big smoke- cheap thrills for a little kid but as he got older he started noticing exactly what you are talking about faceache and I spent most of the trip on bloody lessons about the swearing and lack of teeth and why they were yelling for no reason. The lack of teeth-Joe Hockey was right as you would know faceache! The kid kept asking me -will they get in trouble for that? and why don’t they have any teeth?

  208. MT Isa Miner

    Fisky

    #1428245, posted on August 24, 2014 at 11:12 pm

    The thing to remember about IQ is that everyone believes in it, but not everyone admits to believing in it all of the time. So Leftists very often seize gleefully on IQ studies “proving” that Leftist voters score higher on IQ than non-Leftist voters, but then claim IQ methodology doesn’t apply to any other scenario. They seem to think IQ was only invented in order compare intelligence based on political affiliations, and no other association.

    Yeah, lefty hypocrytics have the tightest turning circle I have ever seen, better than a new Mitsu Mirage. One in my suburb – buddist prayer flags, immigrants welcome sticker next to don’t mine our reef on the 4Wheel drive and votes solid green couldn’t shut up about kid 1 getting in to the academically selective high school and was VERY quiet until kid 2 finally got in on the wait list just before school started- Drs both. Tick 1 for inherited IQ argument and tick 2 for lefty self interest and tick 3 for progressives ruining life for the rest of us DESPITE the high IQ.

  209. .

    Fisky
    #1428247, posted on August 24, 2014 at 11:14 pm
    Right. There’s no link between unproductive, high crime, low social responsibility societies and the fact that they have a lower mean IQ.

    Correlation is another area of analysis that is negated by libertarian ideology, along with marginal analysis and cost-benefit analyses. These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.

    Fisk believes that correlation is causation (yet this blog puts more emphasis on good latin grammar…). He also does not understand the difference between productivity and the factor share of income. He also forecasts costs benefits on the account of moral depravity re: his own fanatical hero worship of Scott Morrison who he will throw under the bus the moment he says a wrong word in Fisk’s rubric of “what Australian MPs must say to get elected as Republicans in the USA”.

    Best that you stick to your knitting, old mate.

  210. Demosthenes

    So Leftists very often seize gleefully on IQ studies “proving” that Leftist voters score higher on IQ than non-Leftist voters

    I thought studies found the opposite?

  211. Wozzup

    Right. There’s no link between unproductive, high crime, low social responsibility societies and the fact that they have a lower mean IQ.

    Correlation is another area of analysis that is negated by libertarian ideology, along with marginal analysis and cost-benefit analyses. These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.

    Neither does the concept of individual responsibility! That’s the last thing leftists would believe in – if individual responsibility exists, they would have nothing to talak about and most of them would be out of a job.

  212. .

    Wozzup
    These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.”

    Neither does the concept of individual responsibility! That’s the last thing leftists would believe in – if individual responsibility exists, they would have nothing to talak about and most of them would be out of a job.

    I have never, ever read a more ignorant or dishonest quote on this website.

    If it is ignorance, allow me to send you a gift wrapped dictionary from Amazon.com

  213. .

    More

    http://www.theadvocates.org/libertarianism-101/definitions-of-libertarianism/

    “Libertarianism is, as the name implies, the belief in liberty. Libertarians believe that each person owns his own life and property and has the right to make his own choices as to how he lives his life and uses his property – as long as he simply respects the equal right of others to do the same.” – Sharon Harris, President, Advocates for Self-Government

  214. .

    http://www.lp.org/faq

    Libertarians believe in, and pursue, personal freedom while maintaining personal responsibility. The Libertarian Party itself serves a much larger pro-liberty community with the specific mission of electing Libertarians to public office.

    Libertarians strongly oppose any government interfering in their personal, family and business decisions. Essentially, we believe all Americans should be free to live their lives and pursue their interests as they see fit as long as they do no harm to another.

    In a nutshell, we are advocates for a smaller government, lower taxes and more freedom.

  215. .

    Finally, from Australia.

    Hopefully this has wiped away any misconeption you have previously had, wozzup.

    http://www.ldp.org.au/index.php/principles

    The Liberal Democratic Party stands for greater freedom, smaller government and personal responsibility.

    It promotes the following principles:

    Economic Principles

    Free markets and freedom of choice
    Low tax, limited public spending and minimal regulation
    Widespread ownership of private property

    Social Principles

    Civil society and volunteerism
    Civil liberties and individual freedom
    Individual liberty and personal responsibility under the rule of law

    Government Principles

    Constitutional liberal democracy
    Ethical and impartial government under the rule of law
    Devolution of power including decentralised government and competitive federalism

    International Principles

    Free trade in goods, services and capital
    Free trade in ideas and culture
    Freedom and human rights

  216. Wozzup

    Dear strange explosion avatar asterisk named person (although your avatar is at least oddly germain given you verbal detonations ).

    Who is talking about libertarianism? I never mentioned it. If you read carefully I was quoting someone else’s post about links between IQ and social dysfunction. No one mentioned libertarianism.

    My post (the line at after the quote marks) was about the importance in society of the concept of individual responsibility – something I should have thought any libertarian would support and agree with – unless its some weird deranged form of libertarianism dreamed up by the Left who believe everything is “all society’s fault” so lets regulate it and then have a multi billion dollar government grant from taxpayers funds to pay for social workers just in case.

    I have not bothered to read your links but if its contrary to your personal form of libertarianism, then that form of libertarianism is not one I want to know anything about.

    Get a grip, man.

  217. .

    You’re an anti libertarian concern troll. Fuck off.

  218. Aristogeiton

    Christ you’re a dishonest shit, Wozzup.

  219. .

    It’s too obvious, Aristo.

    You have to wonder what the agenda is of these people? What restrictions on liberty do they want, what public trough are they gorging themselves on?

  220. Wozzup

    Yawn. Trolls are so boring. And predictable. You can play them like a tin flute.

  221. .

    Your problem is wozzup, that you are so fucking ignorant, that you cannot hide your obvious bullshitting.

    You have tried some lame old meme about personal responsibility. You have tried to pull a three card monty trick here. We’re not falling for it.

    We are libertarians and personal responsibility is a cornerstone of our beliefs.

    You have basically said that ALL (or at least well known) American and Australian libertarians are disingenuous, and to “REALLY” have personal responsibility, we need some curtailment of liberties (which you have a fetish for). This is patently dishonest and obviously, a load of nonsense. This can only be a wholly odious attempt to substitute a rank, authoritarian version of conservatism for an actual belief in liberty.

    You are not going to carry on with your bullshit unnoticed. We are not going to give up this principle for your approval when you dishonestly don’t actually believe in any of this, or personal responsibility, and actually want more curtailment of liberty, and not less.

  222. Wozzup

    Jesus you guys are chowder heads, I said nothing of the sort.

    How do you get an argument in favor of curtailing liberties out of the following which is part of what I posted?

    ““Think what evil creeps liberals would be if their plans to enfeeble the individual, exhaust the economy, impede the rule of law, and cripple national defence were guided by a coherent ideology instead of smug ignorance.

    Or out of anything else I said for that matter. Learn to effing read will you. In case you are terminally confused, the word liberal in this quote means left winger – not libertarian. You know, a left winger, those people who love regulations, big government and lots of rules to force us to obey. Or are you too stupid to understand that. A liberal is the opposite to libertarian. The quote incidentally comes from PJ O’Rourke – someone I would regard as an arch libertarian!

    Oh and by the way also learn some effing manners instead of flaming anyone you (wrongly) thinks disagrees with liberty. You hopeless dick.

  223. Aristogeiton

    Wozzup
    #1428638, posted on August 25, 2014 at 10:00 am
    [...]
    These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.”

    Neither does the concept of individual responsibility!

    You dishonest little shit.

  224. .

    Or out of anything else I said for that matter. Learn to effing read will you. In case you are terminally confused, the word liberal in this quote means left winger – not libertarian.

    Not in Australia, pal.

    The quote incidentally comes from PJ O’Rourke – someone I would regard as an arch libertarian!

    He isn’t a libertarian. He isn’t an arch libertarian. He is a conservative with strong libertarian tendencies.

    Oh and by the way also learn some effing manners instead of flaming anyone you (wrongly) thinks disagrees with liberty. You hopeless dick.

    Well champ you implied the LDP and US LP were not truly libertarian and don’t believe in personal responsibility and the links weren’t worth reading. Which is hilarious because I quoted enough of the websites to show what they believed.

    Being precise matters. Refer to Aristo’s latest post. You were too sloppy to note that you quoted someone to the effect of saying the above at 8.24.

  225. Wozzup

    Aristo whatever the fuck it is , if you can read. – I am not sure that you can, I suggest you go back and re read the relevant posts to try to get your two functioning brain cells to understand what I actually said and why and to put it into context of the quote I was quoting

    I was quoting the words of another poster who was talking about liberals although he at one point referred to them as libertarians. But because I have a functioning mind and two eyes to read, I understood that what he was actually talking about were Liberals – you know those denizens of the left who libertarians hate.

    So arsehole, that is the beginning the middle and the end of it. I was not bagging your precious libertarianism. Please do not bother to comment on anything else I write. From here on I will ignore anything you write. Partly because most of what you write is abusive and unnecessary. But more importantly because the effort needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude greater than that required to produce it. And I simply do not have the time and inclination to deal with wankers like you.
    So shove that up your arse – you know the place where you keep your brains you rude, ignorant abusive f@ckwit.

  226. Aristogeiton

    Wozzup
    #1430497, posted on August 26, 2014 at 9:15 pm

    Hey, you brainless shit. Here’s the original post:

    Fisky
    #1428247, posted on August 24, 2014 at 11:14 pm
    [...]
    Correlation is another area of analysis that is negated by libertarian ideology, along with marginal analysis and cost-benefit analyses. These concepts do not exist in any space inhabited by libertarian ideology.

    No mention of liberalism there you spinless twerp. After bolding said, your risible response was thus:

    Wozzup
    #1428638, posted on August 25, 2014 at 10:00 am
    [...]
    Neither does the concept of individual responsibility! That’s the last thing leftists would believe in – if individual responsibility exists, they would have nothing to talak about and most of them would be out of a job.

    You are a shameless liar and an imbecile to boot. Please fuck off.

  227. .

    I was quoting the words of another poster who was talking about liberals although he at one point referred to them as libertarians. But because I have a functioning mind and two eyes to read, I understood that what he was actually talking about were Liberals – you know those denizens of the left who libertarians hate.

    You quoted it. He was referring to libertarians. He was being a smart arse and knows better than to speak out of school.

    From here on I will ignore anything you write.

    Oh dear.

    So shove that up your arse – you know the place where you keep your brains you rude, ignorant abusive f@ckwit.

    With not a jot of irony.

    Aristo’s last post is flawless.

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