Russia invades Ukraine

Mr Useless still president:

Declaring that Russian troops had crossed into Ukraine, President Petro O. Poroshenko on Thursday canceled a planned visit to Turkey and convened a meeting of the national security council to focus on the “marked aggravation of the situation” in the southeast of his country.

The meeting of the national security council will focus on shaping a response, and Ukraine will also request a meeting of the United Nations Security Council.

Mr. Poroshenko made his comments as the leader of the main separatist group in southeastern Ukraine said that up to 4,000 Russians, including active-duty soldiers on leave, had been fighting against Ukrainian government forces and NATO released images that show Russian artillery units and about 1,000 soldiers operating in Ukraine.

Weird to be here dealing with the liberation of France in 1944 and the start of World War I in 1914 and now to see this.

Meanwhile: Obama confesses: ‘We don’t have a strategy yet’ for dealing with Islamic State.

Of course, to have one it is necessary to want one. On this, I do sincerely have my doubts.

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121 Responses to Russia invades Ukraine

  1. srr

    According to United Nations’ estimates released Tuesday, over 2,249 people have so far been killed and over 6,033 wounded in the fighting in eastern Ukraine.

    The number of internally displaced Ukrainians has reached 190,000, with another 207,000 finding refuge in Russia, the UN said.

    But even the UN admits these numbers are very conservative.

    Still, I wonder why there is a thread on the Ukraine situation, when all the West has joined in only reporting what Kiev says, and everything they say, and only say, without any evidence or independent verification, as if fact, while at the same time, flatly refusing to show any videos or images from Ukrainian Citizens that contradict Kiev’s stories.

    It is impossible to fairly discuss a situation when surviving victims testimonies are rejected by a world desperate to appease their aggressors.

    Just as England rejected the testimonies of the children traded to Muslim Child Sex Slave Gangs and had them and their parents charged as criminals.

  2. srr

    FARAGE: EU TO BLAME FOR UKRAINE CRISIS

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09jHEGKyd-M

    C.L.
    #1432496, posted on August 29, 2014 at 12:30 am

    And the hits keep coming for Nigel Farage …

    Random citizens politicians only dream about …

    Outside the pub where Douglas Carswell’s huge announcement was made …

    WATCH: CABBIE STOPS FARAGE TO SAY ‘YOUR POLICIES ARE OUR POLICIES… NO ONE ELSE HAS THE BALLS!’.

  3. srr

    Farage: EU ‘Has Blood On Its Hands’ Over Ukraine

    http://t.co/iWowKsYd4N

    via @BreitbartNews

  4. srr


    Nigel Farage steps up his criticism of reckless EU foreign policy

    UKIP leader Nigel Farage has stepped up his criticism of EU foreign policy for destabilising countries on Europe’s doorstep and further afield.

    Mr Farage said: “We are seeing vanity take the place of reason in foreign policy and the result is to destabilise a whole series of countries to no positive effect that I can discern. It is not just the Ukraine.

    “The civil war in Syria was made worse by EU leaders stoking the expectation of western forces helping to topple the Assad dictatorship despite the increasing dominance of militant Islamists in the rebellion.

    “In the case of the Ukraine, Brussels has for many years been feeding an entirely unrealistic dream of a future as an EU member state and large net recipient of funds.

    “This has encouraged brave young men and women in western Ukraine to rebel to the point of toppling a legitimate president and led to the utterly predictable debacle whereby Vladimir Putin has annexed part of the country and now casts a long shadow over hopes of genuine democracy in the rest of it.

    “I do not support what Putin has done – of course I don’t. But the approach of David Cameron, William Hague, Nick Clegg and other EU leaders has been disastrous. If you poke the Russian bear with a stick he will respond. And if you have neither the means nor the political will to face him down that is very obviously not a good idea.”

    Mr Farage also called on the British media to take a look at the present situation in Libya, which Mr Cameron claims to have liberated. “It is ungovernable, unstable, divided and very, very dangerous. If that is a foreign policy success, I would hate to see what a terrible failure looks like,” said the UKIP leader.

    “The British public were already fed up of being dragged into conflicts where no pressing national interest was at stake. I know many people are, like me, now deeply worried about weak and vain leaders allowing an expectation to grow up that European countries such as Britain will always side with uprisings in the naive belief that benevolent liberal democracy is bound to replace existing regimes, fundamentally imperfect as they are. That is not the way the world works. So I repeat the charge: the EU has blood on its hands.”

    Farage has the balls.

    Morrison has the balls.

    Credlin doesn’t have balls, she has Abbott’s balls, and every time she squeezes them, Australian’s cry out, “We Need An Australian UKIP!”.

  5. “The British public were already fed up of being dragged into conflicts where no pressing national interest was at stake

    He’s obviously talking about Iraq.
    Remember the Coalition of the Willing in 2003?

    I know many people are, like me, now deeply worried about weak and vain leaders allowing an expectation to grow up that European countries such as Britain will always side with uprisings in the naive belief that benevolent liberal democracy is bound to replace existing regimes, fundamentally imperfect as they are.

    He’s obviously talking about Bush and Blair.

    That is not the way the world works. So I repeat the charge: the EU has Bush and Blair have blood on its their hands.”

    Fixed it for you, Nigel…………..

  6. Ant

    Meanwhile: Obama confesses: ‘We don’t have a strategy yet’ for dealing with Islamic State.

    There ya go.

    Hope and change.

  7. Ant

    Oh, and quickly press PEREGRUZKA, Mr President.

    RESET!

    Yes, that should fix it.

  8. rickw

    Golf and strategy are obviously mutually exclusive, maybe Obama should have been playing lawn bowls.

  9. Petros

    Funny how some separatist movements are ok and others aren’t. Kosovo-Albanians good, Ukrainian-Russians bad.

  10. Token

    Kosovo-Albanians good, Ukrainian-Russians bad.

    You can bet the Mother Russia uber alles crowd don’t want you to realise how many groups want out of the Russian Federation:

    Secession in Russia

  11. Token

    Meanwhile: Obama confesses: ‘We don’t have a strategy yet’ for dealing with Islamic State.

    That is a statement of how hard this administration has muzzled the Pentagon & State department, institutions which were famous for how they once scenario planned EVERY possible outcome of global events.

  12. Demosthenes

    Funny how some separatist movements are ok and others aren’t.

    Because although all will be separatist, there are going to be major differences between them. Intention and consequences are relevant.

    The number of internally displaced Ukrainians has reached 190,000, with another 207,000 finding refuge in Russia, the UN said.

    Remember that the next time someone says push factors are a myth.

  13. Token

    Remember that the next time someone says push factors are a myth.

    Good to see you are true to the hard left ethos of never letting a disaster go to waste.

  14. fred

    Barry will play golf. All fixed!

  15. Grigory M

    Oh, and quickly press PEREGRUZKA, Mr President.

    RESET!

    Clintonesque. About as useful as saying “I am a donut.”.

  16. Chris M

    Of course, to have one it is necessary to want one

    Yes. As much as he may not approve of all the ISIS tactics there is no way Sunni president Hussein will side with the Shias.

  17. Matt

    I read somewhere that Ukraine is asking Brussels for help. Lol!

    Is it normal to loathe leftism more and more every year? Asking for a friend.

  18. Grigory M

    Mother Russia uber alles

    Stay calm, Token – mixing some English with a bit of the German national anthem is somewhat gauche. Maybe, you could have said “Mat’ Rossiya po vsem”. Anyhoo – it looks like Putin has decided to up the ante on the Chocolate King. Not before time IMO.

  19. C.L.

    Remember the Coalition of the Willing in 2003?

    I certainly do.

    They smashed the late twentieth century’s worst mass murderer.

    That would be Labor Party benefactor Saddam Hussein – one of Gough Witlam’s heroes.

    (Another was Pol Pot).

    Then Obama lost the war.

  20. johno

    Of course, to have one it is necessary to want one. On this, I do sincerely have my doubts.

    Why would you doubt Obama?

    When has he ever given any hint of wanting to have a strategy to deal with threats to US citizens?

  21. John Comnenus

    I think I have a basic grasp of Putin’s strategy. I have previously posted about that strategy and my belief that Putin would try and incorporate Donetsk into Russia. Whilst I agree with the overarching purpose of Putin’s strategy I fundamentally object to his means. He should not be invading Ukraine and he absolutely should not be killing those who he needs as allies over the longer term.

  22. .

    You can bet the Mother Russia uber alles crowd don’t want you to realise how many groups want out of the Russian Federation:

    I bet most of them don’t believe that Russia uber Alles is to defend the Catholic Church, or to stop the superweapon of Muslim meth that will destroy western society…

    Anyway, beyond the inane and illucid ramblings of SRR, Obama has given Putin a free rein in the Old Russian Empire.

    The EU are merely defending themselves (and their more recent, Easterly members) by supporting the Ukraine, thus bottling up Putin’s Imperial ambitions. They know Obama won’t do it.

  23. lotocoti

    I wonder if the Rodina! boosters will notice that not all “internally displaced Ukrainians” are heading towards Tsar Vlad’s loving embrace.

  24. Leo G

    UKIP leader Nigel Farage has stepped up his criticism of EU foreign policy for destabilising countries on Europe’s doorstep and further afield.

    Yes, Nigel has named Vladimir Putin as the world leader he most admires, and praised Putin’s actions in Syria which prolonged the Syrian conflict by supplying arms to dictator Bashar al-Assad and blocking sanctions at the United Nations.

  25. Diogenes

    By sheer coincidence last night I was reading Churchill Hitler the Unnecessary War – and the following statement by Woodrow Wilson to Congress struck me

    When I gave utterance to those words [that all nations had a right to self determination] I said them without the knowledge that nationalities existed, which are coming to us day after day”

    This is still the case today.

  26. Petros

    It still amazes me that Guderian didn’t want the support of the Ukrainians in WWII. The Russians haven’t forgotten that the Ukrainians wanted to side with the Axis. Now it’s payback time, not to mention the oil. Hope we aren’t dragged into this mess. Let them sort out their own crap.

  27. C.L.

    The EU has destroyed more nation-states than Russia ever has.

  28. Token

    Whilst I agree with the overarching purpose of Putin’s strategy I fundamentally object to his means. He should not be invading Ukraine and he absolutely should not be killing those who he needs as allies over the longer term.

    That has been the premise of my protests as well.

    Beating down people who are culturally close to you and thereby fanning long term trouble is exactly the short term tactics the Russian state used in the 19th century which ultimately weakened the country and lead to the disasters for Russia in the Crimian, Russo-Japanese & First World Wards.

  29. Token

    It still amazes me that Guderian didn’t want the support of the Ukrainians in WWII. The Russians haven’t forgotten that the Ukrainians wanted to side with the Axis.

    The Crimean Tartars have been heavily punished by the Russians based upon the premise they could have sided with the Axis, even though they never did.

  30. Token

    Obama has given Putin a free rein in the Old Russian Empire.

    Obama is a disaster, the US knew what Russia was up to after the actions in Georgia in ’08. Everyone knew that he understands that a weak US president is an opportunity.

    The problem for Russia is that the Russian state is no more able to sustain a bloated empire which over-reaches today than it was 100 years ago. The internal enemies within Russian borders are infinitely better armed and have better communications than the communists and anarchists did during that time. There is a butchers bill to pay in the future for that state.

    The question is whether it occurs before or after Putin finally leaves the scene.

  31. Leo G

    The Russians haven’t forgotten that the Ukrainians wanted to side with the Axis.

    Selective memory there. Russia itself wasn’t averse to a bit on the side with the Axis. Molotov-Ribbentrop? Or was that Ribbentrop-Molotov? Am I developing a Russian memory?
    And what respectful interval did Russia wait after Germany invaded Poland in 1939 before it acted to share in the spoils- two weeks?

  32. Driftforge

    I think I have a basic grasp of Putin’s strategy. I have previously posted about that strategy and my belief that Putin would try and incorporate Donetsk into Russia.

    I suspect the intended outcome of doing this will be to geographically sort Russian allies and enemies within Ukraine.

    I also suspect Russia won’t stop with Donetsk, but rather secure a region that extends to Romania / Bulgaria, isolating the Ukraine from the Black Sea entirely.

    I wonder if the Rodina! boosters will notice that not all “internally displaced Ukrainians” are heading towards Tsar Vlad’s loving embrace.

    I wonder how many of the EUBeauties will notice that more than half of them are.

  33. Percy

    Is it normal to loathe leftism more and more every year?

    It really should be a daily progression Matt, rather than yearly

  34. Myrddin Seren

    Driftforge

    I also suspect Russia won’t stop with Donetsk, but rather secure a region that extends to Romania / Bulgaria, isolating the Ukraine from the Black Sea entirely.

    Strategically – one can see the point.

    But politically – that would be one high stakes game for Moscow.

  35. Petros

    Wouldn’t it just have been easier for the Germans to side with the Ukrainians?

  36. Myrddin Seren

    Wouldn’t it just have been easier for the Germans to side with the Ukrainians?

    When ?

    Hitler wasn’t even Chancellor when Stalin began mass murder of the Ukranians in 1932.

    Things were a little murky during the Axis’s 1941-44 tour of Ukraine.

    And giving the lingering memories of the 1941-45 Great Patriotic War plus modern German dependence on Russian gas and oil – overtly ‘siding’ with the Ukrainians now would probably come at no small cost to Chancellor Merkel.

  37. Roger

    I also suspect Russia won’t stop with Donetsk, but rather secure a region that extends to Romania / Bulgaria, isolating the Ukraine from the Black Sea entirely.

    I suspect that is militarily and politically impossible for Russia to achieve, but they would certainly like to draw a line between Ukraine and the Sea of Azov.

  38. Giorgio

    The EU provoking Russia is foolish ,all Western Civilisation is going to need Russia as an ally in the coming showdown with the islamofascist conquerors . I cannot think of a better ally,if anyone can sort the muslims out it is Russia they had generations of experience.

  39. Dr Faustus

    Token @ #1432689

    The problem for Russia is that the Russian state is no more able to sustain a bloated empire which over-reaches today than it was 100 years ago. The internal enemies within Russian borders are infinitely better armed and have better communications than the communists and anarchists did during that time. There is a butchers bill to pay in the future for that state.

    +1

    Ordinary Russians wanting basic medical attention for their kids and a rough approximation of a western living standard must be captivated by Putin’s adventurism.

  40. Roger

    Ordinary Russians wanting basic medical attention for their kids and a rough approximation of a western living standard must be captivated by Putin’s adventurism.

    Actually, Putin’s been consistently increasing health expenditure in recent years which has seen a recent rise in life expectancy. No doubt this partly explain his c. 80% popularity rating. Mind you, there are dark clouds on the economic horizon which could see all that change rather quickly.

  41. Petros

    My thoughts exactly, Giorgio.

  42. What ever it takes

    It’s 3 a.m. and your children are safe and asleep
    But there’s a phone in the White House and it’s ringing
    Something’s happening in the world
    Your vote will decide who answers that call
    Whether it’s someone who already knows the world’s leaders, knows the military — someone tested and ready to lead in a dangerous world
    It’s 3 a.m. and your children are safe and asleep
    Who do you want answering the phone?

    Lucky they elected Obama x2
    Heck, its hard to get hold of him at 3pm

  43. Paul

    Yeah, Poroshenko is reeeally credible.

  44. Petros

    BTW I’m still curious why Hitler spurned the Ukrainians in WWII. Anyone here know?

  45. Driftforge

    Strategically – one can see the point.

    But politically – that would be one high stakes game for Moscow.

    Also see ‘South Stream‘ for strategic points. Odd that when the US acts to shut down the planned route, Russia acts to open up an alternate.

  46. Roger

    BTW I’m still curious why Hitler spurned the Ukrainians in WWII.
    Oh, I don’t know…he was concerned that the Ukrainian fascists made the Gestapo look civilised?

  47. Dr Faustus

    Actually, Putin’s been consistently increasing health expenditure in recent years which has seen a recent rise in life expectancy. No doubt this partly explain his c. 80% popularity rating.

    I expect so.

  48. Roger

    The reports of health expenditure and life expectancy are correct, Dr. F., but it looks like the looming economic crisis I mentioned is beginning to bite.

  49. Roger

    Which means Putin would likely see annexation of eastern Ukraine as not only in the Russian national interest but a politically expedient distraction. All in all, though, I agree with the comments above who noted that the West needs a strategic alliance with Russia against Islamo-Fascism. In light of that need, provocations of the sleeping bear in Ukraine have been counter-productive.

  50. .

    Then Russia shouldn’t have pinched the milk money to play the pokies if we are forced to shack up as a marriage of convenience.

  51. Dr. Sir Fred Lenin

    Everyone forgets ,Ukraine only got the Eastern Areas during Kruschovs administrative reshffle ,it was never part of the Old Kievan Ukraine .

  52. Roger

    Not sure of the analogy applies, Dot.
    Russia may be sick, but as a percentage of GDP it runs a smaller budget deficit and has smaller government debt than many countries in the EU, not to mention the basket case of Ukraine.

  53. John Comnenus

    Strategically I think Putin wants as many ethnic Russians back in Russia. He will try to balance this against making too many enemies because his overarching driver is to keep Russia Christian as a bulwark against Islamo fascism.

    Putin’s comments clearly indicate that he thinks Western Europe is beyond saving. He has a point given the high percentages of Euro youth that favour ISIS (as reported by Bolt).

    The USA’s weakness will be encourage Putin to see itself as the leader of the non Muslim world with China. The big play will be for India. A Russia – China – India axis might well be the price of the Obama Presidency. All of these countries have domestic trouble with restive and violent Islamic minorities.

    If Putin can quickly sort out Ukraine he might come to the aid of Syria to portray his anti Islamic credentials. Either way he will want Ukraine on his side in the medium term. And no I do not support Putin’s Ukrainian invasion.

  54. Dr Faustus

    Looking back over the past 100 years, I’d struggle to find a marriage of convenience between Russia and anyone that was worth the milk money.

  55. EB

    They destabilise Assad who’d no have no interest in causing the US actual harm and let the islamaloonies loose. Now they can tell us we’re back in danger on our own soil again.

    And you’re just in time to play everybody’s favourite game – time to sacrifice more rights.

  56. Roger

    Strategically I think Putin wants as many ethnic Russians back in Russia.
    This is definitely a driver as they have a low birth rate causing a looming demographic crisis. For the same reason Putin has been attempting to roll back publicly funded abortion and increasing government payments to families who have a second child. Unlike many Western leaders, at least Putin knows that demography is destiny.

  57. Token

    Putin’s comments clearly indicate that he thinks Western Europe is beyond saving.

    Look at the pipeline in the link above. He is betting Russians future to secure it & the revenue from Western Europe that would result.

    He is betting big on the EU & Western Europe.

  58. Token

    . A Russia – China – India axis might well be the price of the Obama Presidency.

    Make that Iran. Due to the Muslim problems & a belligerent China India is aligning with the anti-China forces including Japan.

    Oh yes, China is not done with Russia over the 19th century unequal treaties.

  59. .

    Roger
    #1432874, posted on August 29, 2014 at 1:51 pm
    Not sure of the analogy applies, Dot.
    Russia may be sick, but as a percentage of GDP it runs a smaller budget deficit and has smaller government debt than many countries in the EU, not to mention the basket case of Ukraine

    It also has a smaller base than most of the West per capita, and the Ukraine was made penniless by his puppet government there…

  60. Token

    …and the Ukraine was made penniless by his puppet government there…

    How many years did it take for Putin’s puppet to rip $70B out of the economy so the country is economically dependent on its neighbours? 4 or 5 years?

  61. Fisky

    Remember that the next time someone says push factors are a myth.

    They sure are in the terms of which factor overwhelmingly determines how many illegal arrivals there are in Australia. That’s pull factors.

  62. Fisky

    Go Vlad! Stick it to the Gay Zionist Nazi junta in Kiev!

    /RussiaToday

  63. .

    Not long, Token.

    Tymoshenko on the other hand, as PM and Finance minister, presided over 9-10% real GDP growth at times, averaging about 6%.

  64. .

    Fisky
    #1432926, posted on August 29, 2014 at 2:34 pm
    Go Vlad! Stick it to the Gay Zionist Nazi junta in Kiev!

    /RussiaToday

    Don’t forget the Islamist junta in Dagestan that is cooking up meth to conquer Australia and kill the Pope, outer suburb by outer suburb….

  65. .

    Remember that the next time someone says push factors are a myth.

    Of course this phenomena is not a myth (the degree or significance is variable), but I doubt they’re gonna trek through Russia, then the Caucuses and Iran to then get here by boat.

  66. Roger

    It also has a smaller base than most of the West per capita, and the Ukraine was made penniless by his puppet government there a corrupt political class. Alas, there are few good guys in Ukraine, Dot.

  67. Token

    Of course this phenomena is not a myth (the degree or significance is variable), but I doubt they’re gonna trek through Russia, then the Caucuses and Iran to then get here by boat.

    Of course the push phenomena exists. In that one’s usual style, the push factors a mis-represented.

    Every person who sees a movie from the US in a third world toilet run by a despot wants to get from those places to the countries in the west.

    Add to that the human traffickers who are endlessly spruiking in those markets the “free money” westerners give away to anyone that can touch ground without documents.

    Big push factors. Everything to do with economic failure of their home cultures.

  68. Fisky

    Of course the push phenomena exists. In that one’s usual style, the push factors a mis-represented.

    “Push factors” have a very clear meaning in the Australian context. What Demos really wants to argue is that push factors are more important than pull factors in deciding how many people arrive illegally in Australia. He hates Morrison, fully supports the Rudd-Gillard Border Chaos policy, but won’t admit it openly.

  69. .

    roger

    Ukrainian national debt in 1999 was 60% of GDP.

    Most of this was paid off before the GFC, down to 17% of GDP. This was because of Tymoshenko’s reforms in the energy market – no barter, cash or bank transfers only.

    They took a very large loss on the GFC (blowing out to near 40%), but Yanukovych increased the debt to near the level it was back in 2000 (near 45%).

    Looking at raw debt and except for very small deficits in 2001 and 2006, Tymoshenko had, as a Cabinet Minister, surpluses every year save for 2010.

    Those who followed have always had a deficit, and they have been significant.

    Debt per capita since 2010 has risen by about 33%.

    Yanukovich handed over strategic and military assets to Russia. He plundered the coffers for Putin.

  70. Roger

    Dot, you do realise that Tymoshenko is probably one of the most corrupt politicians any European country has seen in recent decades? That’s why even her die-hard supporters deserted her at the last election. She made Poroshenko look good ; but if you think he made his billions out of chocolate have I got a business deal for you (Poroshenko’s father was imprisoned for money laundering in late Soviet times – the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree). Like I said, a corrupt political class screwing over the general populace in a way that makes the Russian government look like the epitome of civic rectitude, only now they’re on our side, as if that’s all that matters.

  71. Driftforge

    Alas, there are few good guys in Ukraine, Dot.

    Quite so.

    At least some of the country will now have a leader capable of keeping the corruption at bearable levels.

    Unlike many Western leaders, at least Putin knows that demography is destiny.

    Big difference between knowing and being able to do something effective about it. Unfortunately, some of the ‘freedoms’ we have gotten used to in the west simply don’t make it easy to sustain civilisation at that generational level.

    Which means Putin would likely see annexation of eastern Ukraine as not only in the Russian national interest but a politically expedient distraction.

    Obviously, the slowdown in the economy is due to the trade restrictions the evil EU has imposed. And our counter sanctions are having the effect of increased investment in local agriculture production, at the cost of some of this gas that the EU, for some reason, has not stopped buying.

  72. Driftforge

    Dot, you do realise that Tymoshenko

    No, he only has happy thoughts about her.

  73. Token

    Obviously, the slowdown in the economy is due to the trade restrictions the evil EU has imposed.

    Capital was fleeing from the country long before the EU placed sanctions. Since the start of his 3rd term as president Putin has been travelling fast down a road which always ends with nationalisation of strategic assets.

    Investors have been demanding big fat premiums to insure against such an event.

  74. Token

    She made Poroshenko look good ; but if you think he made his billions out of chocolate have I got a business deal for you…

    Chocolate, ice cream and similar luxury foods have traditionally been a great way to make extraordinary money during and after the communist era. The governments of eastern europe got critical foreign capital by selling such industries in the 90s as they actually had a value which could be commoditised.

  75. Roger

    Chocolate, ice cream and similar luxury foods have traditionally been a great way to make extraordinary money during and after the communist era.

    Token, would you like to be in on the business deal I’m lining up for Dot?

  76. Token

    Token, would you like to be in on the business deal I’m lining up for Dot?

    I’m not sure. If it relates to that part of the work you never know what your partners are putting into your tea.

  77. .

    I have stated facts that make the Putinistas uncomfortable. Their retort is not fit to print in a respectable newspaper, along with assertions and accusations that Putin’s Russia make up, but the Ukrainian people reject as falsehoods. The quiet about Yanukovich’s corruption, illegality in Parliament and general vote rigging is just ignored.

    Facts are irrelevant to the Ukraine’s right to exist to these people, because they hate the EU.

    How many more times will you have to get bollicked before you give up your support of Papa Putin?

    It is utterly pathetic. You merely want him to win to prove to yourself that Obama is a lame leader of the West.

  78. Roger

    If it relates to that part of the work you never know what your partners are putting into your tea.

    Yes, I imagine doing business east of the Oder brings a certain frisson with it.

  79. John Comnenus

    Putin doesn’t care economically speaking who lives in Wester Europe – they will still buy his gas. But Putin is thinking long term. He has started to arrest the terrible Russian Birth rate – that’s his long term goal. His medium and short term goal is to get more Russians into Russia so that the overall Islamic percentage is lower until the effects of an increased birth rate kick in. Once Russia becomes wealthier he will probably try to call back some of the Russian diaspora.

    His support for Iran is to help keep the Sunni focused on competing for power in the Gulf thereby distracting them from goals further afield like supporting Chechnya.

  80. John of Perth

    For those who wish for the anti Junta point of view regarding the conflict. I recommend the slavyangrad website.

    http://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/27/the-southern-front-catastrophe-august-27-2014/

    It has alot of fluff propaganda articles but if you what a clear idea what’s happening on the ground, motives of soldiers, interviews and military tactics, it is an amazing read. Most of the MSM reports on the “Anti-Terrorist Operation” in Eastern Ukraine give the impression of the rebels being crushed, but the past few weeks have been a nightmare for Kiev forces.

    Russia has no need to directly intervene, as the rebels are doing a good job holding their own.

  81. Roger

    Facts are irrelevant to the Ukraine’s right to exist to these people, because they hate the EU.

    I never thought I’d see you, a Libertarian, standing up for the Leviathan that is the EU, Dot. Politics makes strange bedfellows!

  82. Demosthenes

    What Demos really wants to argue is that push factors are more important than pull factors in deciding how many people arrive illegally in Australia.

    That’s what you want me to be arguing, because that makes it easier for you. In reality, I think it’s clear first Howard and then Abbott conclusively proved that pull factors matter the most. They were correct, and Labor and the left were wrong.

  83. Token

    I never thought I’d see you, a Libertarian, standing up for the Leviathan that is the EU, Dot. Politics makes strange bedfellows!

    Same strawman different day.

  84. Token

    Russia has no need to directly intervene, as the rebels are doing a good job holding their own.

    John of Perth, the facts on the ground in the last 24 hours where Russian forces have been documented as moving within Ukrain reveal how untrue that claim is.

  85. .

    Roger
    #1433021, posted on August 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm
    Facts are irrelevant to the Ukraine’s right to exist to these people, because they hate the EU.

    I never thought I’d see you, a Libertarian, standing up for the Leviathan that is the EU, Dot. Politics makes strange bedfellows!

    The EU is freer than Russia.

    This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

  86. Driftforge

    Facts are irrelevant to the Ukraine’s right to exist to these people, because they hate the EU.

    Rights are motherhood statements that are aspirational in nature. No nation has a right to exist, merely the capacity or lack there of.

  87. Roger

    The EU is freer than Russia.
    This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

    Yes, but with all those petty, bureaucratic rules rapidly applied to every area of life, Dot, it may not be for long. Nine bins! Forsooth, willingly relinquishing their hard won freedoms for the sake of efficient rubbish collection!

  88. Oh come on

    I have stated facts that make the Putinistas uncomfortable. Their retort is not fit to print in a respectable newspaper, along with assertions and accusations that Putin’s Russia make up, but the Ukrainian people reject as falsehoods. The quiet about Yanukovich’s corruption, illegality in Parliament and general vote rigging is just ignored.

    Facts are irrelevant to the Ukraine’s right to exist to these people, because they hate the EU.

    How many more times will you have to get bollicked before you give up your support of Papa Putin?

    It is utterly pathetic. You merely want him to win to prove to yourself that Obama is a lame leader of the West.

    Yes. Absolutely. Every single point you’ve made there is indisputable, Dot.

    I never thought I’d see you, a Libertarian, standing up for the Leviathan that is the EU, Dot. Politics makes strange bedfellows!

    If one must take sides, I’d go with the EU any day for moral and pragmatic reasons (the EU is likely to cease being a political entity within the next few decades due to inherent structural weaknesses of the organisation, whereas Russian thugocracy will probably extend indefinitely). However, it is not necessary to take sides. Both can be loathed, however one is clearly the lesser of two evils. It amazes me how many people here who profess to love freedom yet get a funny feeling in the pants when they think of Putin. Someone mentioned Molotov-Ribbentrop above. These are the same sort of people who would have thought that was a sweet, sweet deal back when it was made.

    Are you incapable of learning from history, Putinistas?

  89. John of Perth

    Truthfully Token I would wait for stronger confirmation as the sources come from Kiev, who has cried wolf quite a few times with no hard evidence of direct Russian involvement. I maybe wrong but I suggest the current claim is really covering up the complete collapse of their ATO offensive.

    Perhaps we should see more in the coming days to confirm.

  90. Grigory M

    I also suspect Russia won’t stop with Donetsk, but rather secure a region that extends to Romania / Bulgaria, isolating the Ukraine from the Black Sea entirely.

    Don’t really see why the Russkis would do that. The Ukraine is a buffer state for Russia with significant trading and cultural relationships, and there may be two likely scenarios to keep it that way – 1) All of the Ukraine east of the Dnieper River beomes a separate sovereign state aligned with Russia. Donetsk might be the capital, but Kiev would become a much less significant divided city, or 2) Poroshenko is forced out and all of the Ukraine is affirmed as a separate sovereign state aligned with Russia.

    In either case, the Chocolate King is likely to soon become a mere footnote in history, as his blustering efforts to get NATO and the US engaged continue to fall on deaf ears. And as far as his attempts at sabre-rattling go, he may quickly be made aware that he is only brandishing a butter knife.

  91. Oh come on

    Newsflash to those shitting themselves over ISIS the paper tiger – Putin is not going to enter into (or lead) a grand crusade with Christians like yourselves to defeat Islam. Ever.

    He is not your friend.

  92. Token

    Truthfully Token I would wait for stronger confirmation as the sources come from Kiev

    I am willing to wait.

    The news up for the last few weeks was the forces of Ukraine were pushing back the seperatists. This has been reversed in the last 24 hours. This indicated a change in resources.

  93. .

    Roger
    #1433040, posted on August 29, 2014 at 4:13 pm
    The EU is freer than Russia.
    This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

    Yes, but with all those petty, bureaucratic rules rapidly applied to every area of life, Dot, it may not be for long. Nine bins! Forsooth, willingly relinquishing their hard won freedoms for the sake of efficient rubbish collection!

    Nine bins or having politicians murdered by FSB agents?

    Take your pick.

  94. Driftforge

    The EU is freer than Russia

    Sure the EU is ‘freer’ than Russia. You say this like it is an unalloyed good, which it self evidently is not. Some of those ‘freedoms’ are disastrous for a nation in the long run, and are the societal equivalent of spending in excess of your income. Others are good only when order and law are firmly established, and a people exist with common heritage. Every sign — significantly the exploding level of bureaucracy and regulation — is that the EU is becoming less capable of supporting freedom and on the edges the rule of law is starting to break down. Rotterham is only the latest sign of this.

    Russia is becoming ordered, which is a process we haven’t seen for a while in a nation. In time, law and freedom may flourish on top of that, but order must be established first.

    Ukraine is disordered, and to a disordered state, freedom is indistinguishable from chaos. Russia offers order; the EU offers freedom.

  95. Token

    Rights are motherhood statements that are aspirational in nature. No nation has a right to exist, merely the capacity or lack there of.

    As eastern europe slips back into a Hobbsian pre-WWI environment nations, news keeps coming out that nationalist forces across that region are looking at the maps and looking to follow the example of Russia.

    I’ve said this before but the legacy of the Sun King will be nuclear arms in nations across the region as they understand the US will not provide protection. Poland, Ukraine and a few others are making moves in that direction, especially those with working nuclear reactors.

  96. .

    Sure the EU is ‘freer’ than Russia. You say this like it is an unalloyed good, which it self evidently is not. Some of those ‘freedoms’ are disastrous for a nation in the long run, and are the societal equivalent of spending in excess of your income.

    Nine bins or political assassination?

    I can’t believe the Putinistas have gone full retard.

    Ukraine is disordered, and to a disordered state, freedom is indistinguishable from chaos. Russia offers order; the EU offers freedom.

    Well said, Darth Sidious!

  97. .

    Rights are motherhood statements that are aspirational in nature. No nation has a right to exist, merely the capacity or lack there of.

    America has the right to claim sovereignty across the globe?

    I could live with that.

  98. Oh come on

    Nine bins won’t help us defeat the Saracens, dot!!1!1!!

  99. John of Perth

    The news up for the last few weeks was the forces of Ukraine were pushing back the seperatists. This has been reversed in the last 24 hours. This indicated a change in resources.

    That’s because the media has followed mostly the Kiev version of the conflict. The territory gained has come at a complete cost in terms of operational efficiency of the Ukrainian military. I ask you to look back through the history of the battle reports as will give you an idea as to situation like those 700+ soldiers who fled to Russia, the equipment they acquired from surrounded units and how the territory was won. The simple fact is the ATO operation has been a complete farce in direction and leadership by Kiev and is not a 24 hour change in resources. With a 4th general mobilisation there is no way they can crush the rebels unless massive foreign equipment and troops are provided.

  100. Driftforge

    America has the right to claim sovereignty across the globe

    Of course it does. That is an option open to it. It’s ability to enforce that sovereignty..

  101. Driftforge

    Well said, Darth Sidious!

    Why thank you, Jar Jar.

  102. Fisky

    Ukraine is disordered, and to a disordered state, freedom is indistinguishable from chaos. Russia offers order; the EU offers freedom.

    That’s a country that formally annexed the territory of a neighbouring state, sponsored a deadly insurrection that lead to the shooting down of a passenger airline, and is now openly pouring troops over the frontier to take more land.

  103. Fisky

    The quiet about Yanukovich’s corruption,

    It’s astonishing, isn’t it? I would have thought that the Putinists who are so terribly concerned about the instablity in the Ukraine might have something to say about the extraordinary corruption of Yanukovich.

  104. Driftforge

    That’s a country that formally annexed the territory of a neighbouring state, sponsored a deadly insurrection that lead to the shooting down of a passenger airline, and is now openly pouring troops over the frontier to take more land.

    It is. Do you have a point?

  105. Fisky

    You claimed improbably that Putin offer’s order when he is clear the architect of chaos.

  106. Roger

    Nine bins or having politicians murdered by FSB agents?
    Take your pick.

    Thankfully, Dot, I’m I don’t have to. But in any case, this is not a linear proposition, as though the EU stood at one end of the spectrum and Russia at the other.

  107. james

    You claimed improbably that Putin offer’s order when he is clear the architect of chaos.

    So Putin was the one encouraging pro-EU demonstrators to overthrow by force an elected pro Russian president?

    Russians must really be chess masters if that is the case.

    How clever of you to expose it Fisky.

  108. Token

    So Putin was the one encouraging pro-EU demonstrators to overthrow by force an elected pro Russian president?

    His party chose to depose him and support the election. Seeing you are really concerned about people follow the constitution of Ukraine I can’t wait for your statement condemning the way Russia annexed parts of Georgia and Ukraine in contravention of the constitution of those nations.

    Oh yes, in that case it is Mother Russia Uber Alles!

  109. Token

    …the Putinists who are so terribly concerned about the instablity in the Ukraine might have something to say about the extraordinary corruption of Yanukovich.

    Its like they ebb between concern and apathy based upon whether a despot from Mother Russia is involved or not…

  110. james

    His party chose to depose him and support the election. Seeing you are really concerned about people follow the constitution of Ukraine I can’t wait for your statement condemning the way Russia annexed parts of Georgia and Ukraine in contravention of the constitution of those nations.

    Token anyone who pays attention knows you have a very close personal interest in the issues of eatern europe, particularly in relation to the menace of the Russian bear.

    As someone with no such connections who has been watching this little bunfight with interest, this looks a lot like the EU overreaching and provoking a reaction from a Russia that in living memory had an empire, and now has to put up with the idea of former subjects turning deadly enemies on it’s borders.

    The EU is just as imperialistic as Russia, and supported by the US diplomatic establishment it was THEY who began this sorry mess, not Putin.

    Putin of course not being a man to look a gift crisis in the mouth of course.

    I have a great deal of sympathy for western Ukrainians and i feel they would be better off without their more Russo-phillic neighbors, but to pretend this crisis is merely another example of rampant Russian imperialism is to look the fool.

  111. james

    Its like they ebb between concern and apathy based upon whether a despot from Mother Russia is involved or not…

    Token you yourself do seem to take EVER so much more interest when the despot in question is a Russian one yourself, merely in the opposite direction.

    We all have biases, it doesn’t make a position wrong or right, but it is best if we acknowledge them

  112. .

    The EU is just as imperialistic as Russia

    Nonsense. Since when does the EU want to conquer Dagestan?

  113. sdfc

    No country is forced to join the EU, it does has not invaded anyone, it has not sent its military into a foreign territory. Unlike Russia.

  114. Token

    The EU is just as imperialistic as Russia, and supported by the US diplomatic establishment it was THEY who began this sorry mess, not Putin.

    Putin of course not being a man to look a gift crisis in the mouth of course.

    This is like arguing with a statist who is determined to prove it was the market, not US government policies which lead to the GFC.

  115. .

    james
    #1433273, posted on August 29, 2014 at 7:55 pm
    The EU is just as imperialistic as Russia, and supported by the US diplomatic establishment it was THEY who began this sorry mess, not Putin.

    The EU poisoned Victor Yuschenko in 2004?

    Hilarious.

    james
    #1433258, posted on August 29, 2014 at 7:37 pm
    You claimed improbably that Putin offer’s order when he is clear the architect of chaos.

    So Putin was the one encouraging pro-EU demonstrators to overthrow by force an elected pro Russian president?

    Russians must really be chess masters if that is the case.

    How clever of you to expose it Fisky.

    LOL!

    Your entire contribution to this discussion “james” has been nothing but an EPIC fail…with epic lulz for us.

  116. The Russians haven’t forgotten that the Ukrainians wanted to side with the Axis.

    None of them were even fucking alive. How should they remember what they weren”t alive to remember? Political expedience. Repeat until it sinks in. Slap yourself in the face each time. It”s this kind of bullshit justification that keeps the world at war. Give it a break.

  117. Fisky

    His party chose to depose him and support the election. Seeing you are really concerned about people follow the constitution of Ukraine I can’t wait for your statement condemning the way Russia annexed parts of Georgia and Ukraine in contravention of the constitution of those nations.

    You’re going to be waiting a long time.

  118. Petros

    Some basic history for beer whisperer:
    WWII 1939-1945.

  119. Tel

    You must admit it is amusing to watch the out of town guy give our owners a whupping, while we keep our heads down and pretend to be busy on the plantation.

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