Open Forum: August 30, 2014

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1,286 Responses to Open Forum: August 30, 2014

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  1. MartinG

    Andrew
    #1435360, posted on September 1, 2014 at 10:31 am

    If Christians of any denomination were to become unrestrained the law makers of this country it would over the years become a repressive and cruel society.

    With out doubt many of the things Gillard did or tried to do were despicable but she was restrained by our democracy. You are right though, it’s not just religion that descends into repression and cruelty if it is unrestrained, all total executive power does.

  2. twostix

    Can you name one Libertarian commenter here who does so?

    You really posted that literally in the middle of a debate where “Libertarians” are running their usual post-muslim-atrocity handwaving about Muslims not being so bad because Galileo?

  3. C.L.

    Every single press release or statement on ISIS I’ve read, all issuing forth from supposed ‘imams’, ‘muftis’ and even, lol, sheiks – collectively, we’re told, Australian Islam’s senior leaders – have been composed according to the same template.

    1. ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.

    2. But the Jews.

    3. Yeah. That’s about all.

  4. Empire

    notafan
    #1435483, posted on September 1, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Of course most Catholics in Australia are cultural Catholics but if they deny Catholic doctrine then they put themselves outside the Church community.
    Where muslims in Australia are cultural muslims and deny muslim doctrine then they put themselves outside the muslim community.

    The fundamental difference is that Catholics are not no longer murdered for apostasy. A Muslim who denies Islam, potentially does so at great personal risk. The survey data from the Islamic world clearly shows strong support by Muslims for murdering apostates.

    This debate about “can a Muslim be moderate” solves nothing (for the record, I say “no”). A more constructive approach would be “how can we protect Islamic apostates from Muslims who openly incite for their murder?”

    Banning Islamic immigration outright is politically impossible right now. Implementing a discriminatory refuge intake policy which favours female Muslim apostates is feasible. It would also precipitate beheader head explosions on a grand scale.

    Sandbagging ideologically purity on this issue has made for entertaining blogging, but will not solve it. Subtly encouraging apostasy is a practical beginning. Perhaps then the moderate son-to-be-ex Muslims will emerge from the shadows.

  5. C.L.

    In several ways, Galileo was a clown.

    For example, he posited that tides were caused by the earth’s movements sloshing the water around. But he wouldn’t be told when counseled to square away his theories before publishing a book ridiculing the pope (who had enthusiastically paid his bills).

  6. C.L.

    Dinesh D’Souza: Debunking the Galileo Myth.

    The Church Dogmatically Opposed the New Science: In reality, the Church was the leading sponsor of the new science and Galileo himself was funded by the church. The leading astronomers of the time were Jesuit priests. They were open to Galileo’s theory but told him the evidence for it was inconclusive. This was the view of the greatest astronomer of the age, Tyco Brahe. The Church’s view of heliocentrism was hardly a dogmatic one. When Cardinal Bellarmine met with Galileo he said, “While experience tells us plainly that the earth is standing still, if there were a real proof that the sun is in the center of the universe…and that the sun goes not go round the earth but the earth round the sun, then we should have to proceed with great circumspection in explaining passages of scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true. But this is not a thing to be done in haste, and as for myself, I shall not believe that there are such proofs until they are shown to me.” Galileo had no such proofs.

    Galileo Was A Victim of Torture and Abuse: This is perhaps the most recurring motif, and yet it is entirely untrue. Galileo was treated by the church as a celebrity. When summoned by the Inquisition, he was housed in the grand Medici Villa in Rome. He attended receptions with the Pope and leading cardinals. Even after he was found guilty, he was first housed in a magnificent Episcopal palace and then placed under “house arrest” although he was permitted to visit his daughters in a nearby convent and to continue publishing scientific papers.

    The Church Was Wrong To Convict Galileo of Heresy: But Galileo was neither charged nor convicted of heresy. He was charged with teaching heliocentrism in specific contravention of his own pledge not to do so. This is a charge on which Galileo was guilty. He had assured Cardinal Bellarmine that given the sensitivity of the issue, he would not publicly promote heliocentrism. Yet when a new pope was named, Galileo decided on his own to go back on his word. Asked about this in court, he said his Dialogue on the Two World Systems did not advocate heliocentrism. This is a flat-out untruth as anyone who reads Galileo’s book can plainly see. Even Galileo’s supporters, and there were many, found it difficult to defend him at this point.

  7. twostix

    Every single press release or statement on ISIS I’ve read, all issuing forth from supposed ‘imams’, ‘muftis’ and even, lol, sheiks – collectively, we’re told, Australian Islam’s senior leaders – have been composed according to the same template.

    Speaking of muslim community “leaders“:

    Pakistani community workers said abuse scandal was ‘discussed’
    She said religious leaders were ‘contacted by agencies about the abuses’
    But they ‘discussed it at the mosque’ rather than going to the police
    Comes as council officers face calls to step down over the report

    Parveen Qureshi, director of the United Multicultural Centre in Rotherham, revealed the shocking issue was widely discussed between leaders who were privately ‘trying to resolve the problem’.

    Commenting on local knowledge about horrific cases of young girls being exploited by sexual predators, she said: ‘It was not started overnight it was going on for a long time.

    ‘It was always discussed in the community.’

    So Rotherhams muslim “community”, right up to its “leaders” knew full well for years that their congregants and fellow muslims were running massive sex-slave rings involving infidel girls and did…absolutely nothing.

    Now shh! Let’s hear some more white collar middle class fairy tales about wonderful muslims again.

  8. notafan

    Empire I agree but the MSM keeps positing the moderate practising muslim as something important somehow; when all the real difference is going to be fast jihad /slow jihad .
    So we have the terrorist jihadist who in some ways is easy to deal with and the 18c loving halal certifying perennial victims trying to hold the Australian government and people to ransom by insisting on special rights and privileges for local muslims including the right to go and commit genocide in the ME.
    I say no to both types; Australian law is the only law for everyone;
    no special privileges;
    no parasitical halal taxes;
    if you cheat on welfare you get treated like everyone else;
    if you abuse your children or our children you get treated like everybody else and so on.

  9. Pete of Perth

    Japanese were the best pearl divers in Broome up until WW2. However, this was before the age of Scuba.

  10. notafan

    ‘It was always discussed in the community

    They discussed it for 20 years; are still discussing it
    did they ever say it was wrong did they ever preach a sermon on a Friday to say STOP IT
    no they didn’t
    They just talked about the poor muslims in the ME and the responsibility of muslims to the ummah and the responsibilty of muslims to perform jihad but they didn’t say nuffin about going there or anyfink about doing a bombing or a beheading

  11. Empire

    twostix
    #1435492, posted on September 1, 2014 at 12:57 pm

    I bet if I cared to look I’d find out that back last century there were plenty of the same people running this mealy mouthed, cowardly, line about communists too “hey I’m not going to condemn communists because of a few bad apples, I’ve got heaps of marxist friends they’re all nice people, let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

    No need to look, there certainly were folks like that. Presumably the majority of people who voted NO at the 1951 referendum. The balance of the NO votes were themselves communists.

    Except back then even leftist governments didn’t try importing millions of soviet communists into the outer suburbs of their countries then ban criticism of them and their violent ideology

    Perhaps not Soviets, but the importation of leftists has been ALP policy since Calwell.

    Kudos to you twostix for equating Islamofascism with communism. I surprised I haven’t seen more of this. The difference is that most Australian communists endeavoured to conceal their links to the CPA. Our Islamofascists openly advertise their allegiance to the death cult at mosque each Friday.

  12. MartinG

    Roger
    #1435378, posted on September 1, 2014 at 10:54 am

    I heard an independent commentator on the BBC over the weekend who maintained that Turkey, a member of NATO and an applicant for accession to the European Union

    I’m afraid I can’t give you the exact details, but Turkey did apply to become a member of the EU some time back. The EU gave Turkey a list of reforms it would have to make before it would consider it’s membership and as to date Turkey hasn’t met them. With Turkey becoming more Islamist over the last few years, it’s doubtful it will ever meet the reforms required, so it’s unlikely it will ever be accepted.

    I have no idea why Turkey was ever excepted as a member of NATO but it did in about 1952.

  13. Gab

    Guests at an event hosted by Sunrise’s David Koch were told “Australia can’t afford another Tasmania”.

    Aww, they’re upset becuase Judith told them the truth. Boo-hoo.

  14. Aristogeiton

    twostix
    #1435510, posted on September 1, 2014 at 1:12 pm
    Can you name one Libertarian commenter here who does so?

    You really posted that literally in the middle of a debate where “Libertarians” are running their usual post-muslim-atrocity handwaving about Muslims not being so bad because Galileo?

    Are you dishonest, or just stupid? Nobody here is defending any atrocities, even the misguided BeauGan. The only point made by myself, Dot, Fisky and others is that not every Muslim is a raving Jihadi murderer. It’s a simple concept that somehow evades your colossal intellect.

  15. DrBeauGan

    I have a muslim family living close to me. Both adults have doctoral degrees in computing from french universities. There are two boys, one six and at a local state school, the other a two year old who’s a one kid islamic jihad on his own, but great fun. Their mother calls me ‘mate’. The kids are well behaved and the older is soccer mad. I gave him a Harry Potter book and he is ploughing through it.

    Frankly, I find it hard to think of any of them or their muslim friends who all smile and say ‘Hi’ as a dreadful threat. They strike me as a damned sight saner than notafan or twosticks. Not that that’s saying a lot.

    As I said, the problem in Rotherham was not just some Pakistani shits who should have been strung up. It was also devoutly PC fools and moral imbeciles who should be headed for ten years in the slammer. Confounding those of us who are not rabidly anti-muslim with the moral imbeciles is awfully dumb.

    Notafan, it has been pointed out to you by Aristo that on your definition hardly any muslims are true muslims and hardly any catholics are true catholics. I’m not a catholic, but if I were, being looked down on by you as not being rabid enough wouldn’t worry me a jot. Rather the contrary.

  16. twostix

    In light of all this it’s important to provide a wider context and historic revision for some things too.

    In all of the known muslim run sex-slave markets: Rochdale, Oxford, Derbyshire and, now, Rothingham we now know the state became aware of the massive abuse by muslim men of poor white girls in the early 2000′s.

    This was right around the time that young men in those exact same communities (and Cronulla) were rioting against the sons of the muslims that had been dumped in their communities. Their biggest complaint? The utterly shit and degrading treatment of girls by muslim men in their communities.

    The urban left sneered and sided with the young muslim men and launched a full cultural and legislative counter attack against the “nazi” “far right” in these Labour strongholds who had rioted in response to the rape epidemic, and wave of terror being perpetrated in their communities against young white girls by muslim men.

    Oops. (pro-tip for leftists: you’re always on the wrong side!)

  17. Gab

    I have a muslim family living close to me. Both adults have doctoral degrees in computing from french universities. There are two boys, one six and at a local state school, the other a two year old who’s a one kid islamic jihad on his own, but great fun. Their mother calls me ‘mate’. The kids are well behaved and the older is soccer mad. I gave him a Harry Potter book and he is ploughing through it. Frankly, I find it hard to think of any of them or their muslim friends who all smile and say ‘Hi’ as a dreadful threat. They strike me as a damned sight saner than notafan or twosticks. Not that that’s saying a lot. As I said, the problem in Rotherham was not just some Pakistani shits who should have been strung up. It was also devoutly PC fools and moral imbeciles who should be headed for ten years in the slammer. Confounding those of us who are not rabidly anti-muslim with the moral imbeciles is awfully dumb.

    Hmmm, yes, yes all really wonderful. And the sister of the man taken off the plane last week on suspicion of terrorism activities said there’s no way her brother was like that because – and this is what she actually said – “he’s educated and he loves AFL and drinks coffee”.

  18. twostix

    The only point made by myself, Dot, Fisky and others is that not every Muslim is a raving Jihadi murderer.

    Yes, yes.

    We already know you fully agree with Rotherham council.

  19. twostix

    Frankly, I find it hard to think of any of them or their muslim friends who all smile and say ‘Hi’ as a dreadful threat. They strike me as a damned sight saner than notafan or twosticks. Not that that’s saying a lot.

    lol

    You would have fit right in on Rochdale, Rothingham, Derbyshire or Oxford councils.

  20. Woolfe

    Not sure what your point is Mick. I was in South Africa in July for my friends daughters wedding and so no violence between the races you mentioned.

  21. thefrollickingmole

    I hate to pile on but this needs ridiculing..

    My problem is that I suffer from an excess of sanity in a world with a distressingly large contingent of whackos.

    Not to mention my excessively huge genitalia, stunning good looks and modesty…

  22. thefrollickingmole

    Woolfe

    The site Im at has a few SA immigrants, every one of them has a family member who has been shot/murdered.
    One of our nurses brothers was shot and nearly killed by thieves looking for firearms in his house, another had a family member shot at a traffic light for about $20 and a mobile phone, despite co-operating with the thief.
    SA is a failed state, another chap made his money making and installing generators as the city power supplies were constantly browning out/being rationed.

  23. twostix

    Doing an historic search in UK for muslim abuse is astonishing.

    A taste of the articles:

    Police fear Muslim riots over prosecution of Islamic pedophile networks
    I was told by one police officer that he did not ‘want to start a race riot’ by arresting Pakistani men for sexual offences,

    Yet another Muslim paedophile gang has been uncovered in the county of Shropshire, local media have reported.

    Muslim pedophile gangs now operating across Yorkshire

    Girl, 13, in Leeds sex attacks horror
    A MAJOR police inquiry was launched today after a 13-year-old girl was reportedly raped after being forced into sex acts with a group of at least a dozen men.

    In Huddersfield, Muslim men were telephoning young girls and threatening to burn down their homes if they did not meet them. The Mother of one of the raped children, said that she there many case’s of child rape by Muslims in Huddersfield and took reporters to meet some of the Mothers, all had the same experiences – multiple offences, and the police allowing Muslims to get away with it

    A gang of muslim men has been convicted of systematically grooming and sexually abusing teenage girls in Derbyshire.

    These all date back to up to a decade ago.

    It would seem the list of places where muslim men aren’t running state and police protected infidel sex-slave markets in the UK is shorter than the list where they are.

  24. notafan

    Notafan, it has been pointed out to you by Aristo that on your definition hardly any muslims are true muslims and hardly any catholics are true catholics. I’m not a catholic, but if I were, being looked down on by you as not being rabid enough wouldn’t worry me a jot. Rather the contrary.

    What is with the ‘rabid’? You think by making abusive personal remarks you represent the high moral ground?
    Did I say I looked down on anyone? Why do you have the right to put words in my mouth?
    I am a practising Catholic, I have non practising Catholic children and children and siblings who no longer believe in God. I doubt my ex Catholic siblings would call themselves Catholics and I am not sure if the ones who attend for weddings and funerals only would call themselves Catholics.
    Surely being a member of a religious faith means something real ?
    Muslims are not a race so believing the ‘five pillars’ should be a defining requirement, I know practicing Muslims think so. You think the local iman reckons someone who doesn’t attend Friday prayers observe the fasts and drinks beer is a devout muslim?
    Who’s views should represent Islam?
    Does someone who never attends Mass and doesn’t know the creed get to represent Catholics in the public arena?
    The moderate muslims who’s views are being represented in the MSM are practising muslims, how is their understanding of Islam different to that of the socalled fanatics?
    i don’t know? Do you?
    I haven’t called for a ban on Muslim immigration but I think we should be very wary of allowing in large numbers to the point to being where countries like the UK and France find themselves today.
    I see muslim community leaders simultaneously distancing themselves from groups like IS while at the same time claiming to be victims of anti terrorist laws and 18c
    It’s not like nothing is happened that is cause for concern is there? What we see in Iraq is ethnic cleansing and genocide on a grand scale being carried out in the name of Islam by a lot of people who have no direct relationship to Iraq.
    What right has an Australian born citizen of Lebanese heritage to drive Christians out of Mosul?
    BTW I have worked closely with muslims and have muslim aquaintances too, so what?

  25. Senile Old Guy

    But why are all these celebs holding pics of themselves starkers on their phones or computers?

    I think it was iCloud which was hacked, not their phones or computers.

  26. MartinG

    Bruce of Newcastle
    #1435437, posted on September 1, 2014 at 12:05 pm

    On the other hand climate scientists haven’t yet been known to cut people’s heads off.

    No but they and their enablers have been known to advocate suspending democracy, tattooing denier on there foreheads, imprisoning them and they are actively censored by the ABC, BBC and glossy magazines that masquerade as scientific journals.

  27. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From Woolfe at 2:19 pm:

    “Not sure what your point is Mick. I was in South Africa in July for my friends daughters wedding and so no violence between the races you mentioned.”

    Disingenuous much Woolfe? Your post did not mention violence, but now it does, and neither did my response.

    You say Rhodesia was racist “Whether you like it or not …”

    I say it is racist, just like South Africa, they have been so for the immediate past decades and that is what matters now.

    The European cognoscenti fairly easily had Ian Smith removed, and de Klerk, and were well pleased with their cleverness. They have shown no such enthusiasm to unseat the racist, thieving, murderous despots they eased onto the thrones in their place.

    But you know that.

  28. Andrew

    Mole, just a request that when you’re talking about the “failed state of SA” where people are murdered for $20, can you be clearer? I had to read it 3-4 times to decide that you probably meant Joburg in RSA rather than Elizabeth in Adelaide.

  29. thefrollickingmole

    Andrew

    Ooops, dint mean to imply our lesser Australian cousins hve sunk quite that low…yet.

    Though the “bodies in the barrels” blokes did it for dole money, thats not huge pickings.

    So RSA it is instead of SA.

  30. MartinG

    Helen
    #1435464, posted on September 1, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    Rushing out the door, but question to those in the know,

    Why did David L vote with the greens on the motion to debate senate control over action in Iraq?

    Greens leader Christine Milne formally moved to try to force a debate about “parliamentary approval for the deployment of Australian troops in Iraq”.

    David Leyonhjelm voted for the motion that the debate should be had. He didn’t vote that the senate should have control over any action taken in Iraq.

    The motion was that any action taken should be debated, so David Leyonhjelm agreed action taken should be debated. He wasn’t voting that it should be debated before any action was taken.

  31. nilk

    On the other hand if you ask a randomly selected Christian if he believes priests can do magical miracles after ordination, he will likely think it’s a lunatic question. He might say the alleged transmutation is symbolic, not actual. The devout will disagree. In much the same way, the average muslim in Australia dosn’t really believe in slavery or killing infidels. He believes in getting along with us.

    Yes, but Dr. BeauGan you are missing the bigger picture.

    The average muslim in Australia is not driving the narrative forward. He is the guy in the red shirt on Star Trek, who either provides a distraction or gets killed.

    Did you miss Brigitte Gabriel calling out a whingeing muslima at a panel that had nothing to do with what the whining was about? The average aussie muslims do not call out their militant brethren.

    They can’t. They are not allowed to under the rules of sharia, so they have to suck it up and keep whining about being eternally victimised.

  32. We already know you fully agree with Rotherham council.

    You going for the Numbnuts award, Twostix?

    Yeah, I know, I know. I stepped into what I thought was a spare meeting room at work today, and lo and behold, there was a jihadi cowworker busily beheading an infidel. I pointed it out to HR, and they proclaimed that he was fulfilling his religious rights. If that wasn’t bad enough, I had to avoid blood spurting from an infidel’s throat in George St on my way home, and nearly slipped over infidel blood on the bus, such is the wanton jihad conducted by ever Muslim in Australia.

    So, Twostix, do I start massacring Muslims now or wait until later?

  33. Gab

    Yeah, I know, I know. I stepped into what I thought was a spare meeting room at work today, and lo and behold, there was a jihadi cowworker busily beheading an infidel. I pointed it out to HR, and they proclaimed that he was fulfilling his religious rights. If that wasn’t bad enough, I had to avoid blood spurting from an infidel’s throat in George St on my way home, and nearly slipped over infidel blood on the bus, such is the wanton jihad conducted by ever Muslim in Australia.

    That’s hilarious. The Islamic State victims are laughing their heads off.

  34. Infidel Tiger

    If that wasn’t bad enough, I had to avoid blood spurting from an infidel’s throat in George St on my way home

    Folk in London probably used to make those jokes…

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