A snarky question

Yesterday anti-free speech activist Daniel Meyerowitz-Katz (reply here) posted a gotcha question on the Australian Libertarian Society Facebook page:

Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

Rather that respond with an equally snarky answer, I thought I’d sub-contract out the work:

On Facebook, Clinton Mead – LDP mayor of Campbelltown:

The nutter muslim:muslim ratio in Australia is probably one of the lowest in the world, so the market for ideas is actually working pretty well considering.

Janet Albrechtsen – from October this year:

Our ideas are better than yours. We believe in a society based on respect, dignity, equality, the rule of law, freedom of association (so even men like you can meet and plan a caliphate), freedom of religion (so even men like you can use religion as a reason for revolution), free speech (so men like you can try to spread your hate-filled ideology).

However, the moment you incite violence, you commit a crime against the very fabric of our society. Short of that, we will meet and defeat your words and ideas with ours.

On reflection, there’s little point trying to win over, or even explain, our values to these extremists. Their minds are closed, lost to dark dreams of an Islamic caliphate where men rule and sharia law triumphs over human rights.

So this letter is for the rest of us. A reminder of the inherent virtues of our society, where free speech and other human rights allow even abhorrent ideas to be aired. A reminder, too, that we need to defend these values with vigilance. We could shut down extremists. But that’s too easy. That’s what an Islamic caliphate would do. In any case, shutting down words won’t work. It will only drive people underground, allow them to make martyrs of themselves, attracting more attention from the misguided and the aggrieved.

That Daniel is why you are on the wrong side of history – freedom will triumph over oppression because we have the better ideas and offer everyone a better future.

If anyone is looking for some light reading over the summer, let me recommend this.

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42 Responses to A snarky question

  1. Rabz

    We believe in a society based on respect, dignity, equality, the rule of law, freedom of association, freedom of religion, free speech.

    Just about all of those beliefs identified above are under siege in this country, the most obvious being free speech and the rule of law.

    Modern western societies pretty much stand for nothing nowadays. Multiculturalism, for example, is an obscene renunciation of our heritage. Feminism is just as equally toxic and destructive. Neither of these idiocies are accepted by militant muslims.

    Again, I can’t help but feel very pessimistic about the future.

  2. .

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    If Muslims are ringing up conservative “shock jocks” calling for this loser to be fogotten, buried at sea and apologising to the general community for his behaviour – we have won the battle of ideas.

    Katz is a desperado who wants any excuse to argue against free speech.

    He is a seditious little ^%$#. He is the Richard Rich of our times. He is the lesser hammer of the Finklesteinians.

    To sum up:

    Always reputed light of his tongue, a great dicer and gamester, and not of any commendable fame…

  3. Infidel Tiger

    If anyone is looking for some light reading over the summer, let me recommend this.

    Not sure VDH thinks like that any more.

    He’s pretty sure the west is over now.

  4. Tel

    Guns are also ideas, you don’t seem them growing on trees or anything. Benjamin Robins put a lot of honest work into adapting the ideas of Isaac Newton to the purpose of more efficiently poking holes in people from a distance.

  5. stackja

    Infidel Tiger
    #1541867, posted on December 16, 2014 at 5:19 pm
    If anyone is looking for some light reading over the summer, let me recommend this.

    Not sure VDH thinks like that any more.

    He’s pretty sure the west is over now.

    Well sort of like California.
    Campuses are becoming the haunts of the very wealthy and the poor, with little regard for any in-between — sort of like California.

  6. Makka

    “We believe in a society based on respect, dignity, equality, the rule of law, freedom of association, freedom of religion, free speech.”

    I don’t respect Islam in my society. It has no dignity or equality, freedom of association or a desire to allow free speech. It most certainly does not allow freedom of religion. All these values are fine and admirable in a Christian Western society but not one beset by parasitic Islam.

    And I see no reason on God’s earth why we should simply grant to Islam what it has never and will never grant to us in the West or even themselves. That being;

    “a society based on respect, dignity, equality, the rule of law, freedom of association, freedom of religion, free speech.” These are the very values Islam is trying daily to take from me.

    “freedom will triumph over oppression because we have the better ideas and offer everyone a better future. “ we have ideals worth defending with force where necessary. Those before us fought , struggled and sacrificed over the centuries so that we can enjoy the many benefits of those ideals. But now Leftism, Multiculturalism and PC is robbing us of that defense. Time to call a spade a spade and ostracize the Islam disease.

  7. C.L.

    Our ideas are better than yours. We believe in a society based on respect, dignity, equality, the rule of law, freedom of association (so even men like you can meet and plan a caliphate), freedom of religion (so even men like you can use religion as a reason for revolution), free speech (so men like you can try to spread your hate-filled ideology).

    However, the moment you incite violence, you commit a crime against the very fabric of our society. Short of that, we will meet and defeat your words and ideas with ours.

    Sorry but Albrechtsen’s boilerplate is part of the problem.

    The “However” point should be …

    However, the moment you incite violence, we’ll ruthlessly kill you by the bushel.

    If Muslims are ringing up conservative “shock jocks” calling for this loser to be fogotten, buried at sea and apologising to the general community for his behaviour – we have won the battle of ideas.

    Ahahahahahaha.

    Hi Alan. Yeah, I’m a typical everyday Muslim and I’m really sorry and stuff.

    The grown-ups are speaking, Dot.

  8. Fisky

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    Because they don’t believe in the marketplace of ideas. They have divine backing of a holy text that promises them power over the infidel and incites violence against Jews and Christians. So the question for Danny is clear – as an opponent of free speech, do you call for censoring the Koran or not? Yes or no. Straight answer please or you’re blowing smoke again.

  9. .

    Sorry but Albrechtsen’s boilerplate is part of the problem.

    Nonsense.

    Sorry C.L., the sane people are speaking.

    Free speech is sacred.

  10. JC

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    That battle has already been won, you fucking doofus.

  11. H B Bear

    It is a bit of a handicap when whatever passes for thought and progress under Islam stopped in the 6th century. A comparison of Islam and pre-Enlightenment society isn’t that far removed.

    The Western desert religions have moved on a bit – although not as much as all that in some parts of the world. And as Rabz says, are now under threat and in active retreat.

  12. C.L.

    Free speech is sacred.

    You really come across as a bong user at times, Dot.

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.

  13. struth

    When the refugees and economic nation shoppers are heading in the other direction you have won the battle of ideas.
    Until then why not don a white night gown and sandals and make submissive love to a camel.
    Then you too can make that awful muslim wailing.
    The scum are showing tbeir insanity more boldly now.
    Time to fight.
    Thank god we have a great and strong leader in Tony A……..cough snigger…….dispair.

  14. struth

    Now we can see the true disease.
    The soft gutless left in pandering and more worried about da feelwings of some hijabbed woman.
    Not actually sitting next to them in a train just talking shit on twitter.
    Couldn’t give two shits about the sexism and dominance over them by their camek f..g husbands.
    Complete conspicuous compassion. Look at moi.
    Of this when Australians have been killed and terrorised for being Australian.
    Just sickening.
    Would it not be treason in earlier times?

  15. Driftforge

    Freedom of speech — like any freedom — is a result, not a cause, of western civilisation. Once the underlying and affirming institutions crumble under disregard, freedoms inevitably fall. And some, tragically, cling to the evidence of what once was, rather than acting to restore the foundations that allowed it to stand tall.

    Freedom of speech is not sacred. It comes at a cost, and only at times of great civilisational — not material —wealth can it be sustained as a luxury good.

    Choosing to spend the last reserves of our civilisation on defending our luxuries rather than rebuilding our capacity to produce civility is a folly every bit as misguided as its equivalent in capital.

    Say’s Law.

  16. struth

    How out of touch with anyone over 30 is our media.
    How disgusting our leaders who without referendum forced multiculturalism on us to now offer prayers.
    Prayers.
    A fucking disgrace.
    I am so angry.
    We know camel fucking Muslims are peasants and expect this.
    This is a product of left wing politics.
    It allowed this to happen in Australia.
    It encouraged it.
    It even now worries for Muslim sensibilities .
    I hope the media and grandstanding facebook and Twitter lefties are taken to task over their reactions and concerns.
    This time their response is sickening in the extreme.

  17. JohnA

    Working backwards through the comments:
    struth #1542234, posted on December 16, 2014 at 8:34 pm

    “I hope the media and grandstanding facebook and Twitter lefties are taken to task over their reactions and concerns.”

    They will be first against the wall, come the Caliphate, of course.

    Driftforge #1542219, posted on December 16, 2014 at 8:26 pm

    Freedom of speech — like any freedom — is a result, not a cause, of western civilisation. Once the underlying and affirming institutions crumble under disregard, freedoms inevitably fall. And some, tragically, cling to the evidence of what once was, rather than acting to restore the foundations that allowed it to stand tall.

    And the foundation of Western civilization is Christianity – like it or lump it, folks.

    Makka, and C.L. almost a dead heat:
    The “However” point should be …

    However, the moment you incite violence, we’ll ruthlessly kill you by the bushel.

    …because you have declared war upon us and our way of life. You therefore forfeit all rights and in responding to your actions we will dispense with the formality of treason charges.

  18. .

    C.L.
    #1542011, posted on December 16, 2014 at 6:50 pm
    Free speech is sacred.

    You really come across as a bong user at times, Dot.

    I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    You’re outing yourself as a statist, liberty hating freak C.L.

    Freedom of speech is not sacred.

    Yes it is. Many have died for it.

  19. Driftforge

    Yes it is. Many have died for it.

    You seem to have a misunderstanding of what sacred means. If you are using the term to mean ‘unthinking devotion’, then I suppose you could be correct within that sense, but that puts freedom of speech in some pretty poor company in terms of ‘things many people have died for’.

    When you seek to preserve the benefits of civilisation at the expense of its foundations, don’t be surprised when it crumbles everywhere at once. It’s kind of sad that you see this so clearly in the economic context but blind yourself in the civilisational one.

  20. boy on a bike

    Would you ride with Ivan Milat?

  21. Freedom of speech — like any freedom — is a result, not a cause, of western civilisation. Once the underlying and affirming institutions crumble under disregard, freedoms inevitably fall. And some, tragically, cling to the evidence of what once was, rather than acting to restore the foundations that allowed it to stand tall.

    Quite right.

  22. You’re outing yourself as a statist, liberty hating freak C.L.

    You said, “Free speech is sacred.”
    I think CL has a rather different interpretation of the word “sacred” than you do, and didn’t like you using it for something that isn’t actually sacred.

  23. We should support free speech because the alternative is letting our rulers decide what can and cannot be said.

  24. Yobbo

    There is no market for free speech in this country.

    If you speak out against Islam, then muslims will try to kill you. And if they try hard enough then they will probably succeed, since our law enforcement is toothless and preoccupied with manning speed cameras.

    People live in fear of criticising Islam. That is not a “free market of ideas”.

  25. BorisG

    Yobbo, some people do speak against Islam. Say Danny Nalliah. He didn’t get many votes for his rise up Australia, did he? You can’t blame Muslim intimidation for this, since we have a secret ballot in this country.

  26. None

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    Refer Driftforge, Dover Beach, JohnA, C.L….

    Dot reminds me of a Rand-bot. Big on ideology. Clueless about everything else.

    Next.

  27. .

    Free speech is sacred. The alternative is that it can and should be compromised.

    None prefers to give away freedoms because she/he/it doesn’t like Ayn Rand – maybe you can learn a thing or two before you teach your grandmother how to suck eggs.

    Free speech is sacred.

    Those who are religious cannot worship freely without it.

  28. jupes

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    Because the Koran. Allah’s word.

  29. jupes

    If Muslims are ringing up conservative “shock jocks” calling for this loser to be fogotten, buried at sea and apologising to the general community for his behaviour – we have won the battle of ideas.

    And if the Lindt Cafe murderer had 14,000 likes on his Kaffur hating facebook page then we have lost.

  30. destroyer D69

    In all discussions with muslims/islam be VERY aware of the permission of taquiyya………

  31. john malpas

    Come this is all about multiiplication.
    The women of the west don’t have babies very much and the islamics do.
    And gradually the politicians of the west realise this and so cosy up to the voters of the future.
    Hence the subtle and growing anti white sentiment of the upper classes.

  32. Here’s another snarky question.

    How do you protect people and ultimately all of us from sophisticated and obsessive racist attack which may well be part of an ideological war; and especially in the mass media era where it can be done anonymously?

    Cop it sweet?

  33. I owe this site an expansion on that.

    18c type laws are instinctively repugnant but what this debate overlook is defamation. Not just because defamation is an obvious exception to the grand principle but also because defamation can skew the lay of the land even before the battle.

    Defamation can toss a bucket of cold water over free speech in unexpected ways. I have trouble getting some posts up on British sites. To call a blatant antisemite like George Galloway an antisemite or racist is to risk a lawsuit. On the other hand demonising an individual or group as child killers, the implacable enemies of God and humankind and celebrating the terrorist murders of children by Hamas and Hezbollah (all of which Galloway does) is protected by free speech.

    It is not good enough to justify these anomalies and impact on the ground that defamation is about property and its protection. Reputation. Racism can steal and awful lot more from an individual than that. Reputation is the least of it.

  34. Rococo Liberal

    Why has the market for ideas not crushed militant Islamism in countries like Australia?

    Whay do people still commit arson, murder assault, theft and buggery, despite the fact that they are criminal or risky? The market doesn’t crush evil out of existence, it marginalises it.

  35. Rococo Liberal

    BTW, it’s good to see that Sinc has accepted my dichotomy between speech and deeds.

    Freedom of speech is absolute, the freedom to commit actions is not. That is because until modern times and the left’s schoolyard fear of the effect of bad words and thoughts, it was universally recognised that the State should only police a man’s actions not his thoughts or his words.

    It is of course possible to speak and to take action at the same time. Thus I can walk down the middle of Castlereagh Street (currently blocked by the police for some reason), holding a sign declaring that global capitalism is evil, but I should be arrested for blocking traffic, not for my anti-capitalist message.

  36. None

    None prefers to give away freedoms because she/he/it doesn’t like Ayn Rand

    Like I said, dot’s just a Rand-bot. And I see he’s also just making stuff up again.

    Next.

  37. Sinclair Davidson

    BTW, it’s good to see that Sinc has accepted my dichotomy between speech and deeds.

    Oi – I have always distinguished between saying what you like and doing what you like.

  38. Squirrel

    Interesting to be reminded of Clinton Mead who, I see, shares his birthday with the Don (and LBJ, but that’s another story).

  39. Daniel

    I resent being called an “anti-free speech activist”.

    I’m suing you for defamation!

  40. .

    None
    #1543407, posted on December 17, 2014 at 5:03 pm
    None prefers to give away freedoms because she/he/it doesn’t like Ayn Rand

    Like I said, dot’s just a Rand-bot. And I see he’s also just making stuff up again.

    Next.

    You hate freedom. Free speech is sacred.

    Ayn Rand was much, much smarter than you – you can’t even argue why you, like a fascist, oppose free speech as an inviolable concept.

  41. .

    I resent being called an “anti-free speech activist”.

    You are.

    Get used to it.

  42. Sinclair Davidson

    Now dot – no adding to Daniel’s resentment.

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