Cross Post: Zeev Vinokurov – Geert Wilders and the ALA do not stand for liberty–they undermine it

Geert Wilders, a Dutch politician famed for his anti-immigration views, recently launched the Australian Liberty Alliance, a political party whose platform calls for banning Muslim migration to Australia. While there is no denying that radical Muslims exist in our community and overseas, Wilders and the ALA’s call to ban Muslim immigration amount to a call for tyranny of a different kind: a tyranny that denies individuals the right to live and migrate here merely because of their religious background. I do not dispute their right to express their views, but they are profoundly mistaken.

Those who argue that our laws should ban Muslim immigration overlook the profound impact on civil liberties these laws will have. Collective punishment undermines the presumption of innocence. Migration bans presume that all foreign Muslims are completely incapable of respecting our freedoms. They are found guilty of that charge without a trial. Abandoning the right to a fair trial and imposing an ideological test for migration is the antithesis of liberty.

The ALA and Wilders no doubt wish to trade liberty for security. But where does that stop? Should we lock up all of the Muslims here from fear that some of them might be extremists, as Roosevelt did to Japanese-American citizens? Deport them? What will come next? If we concede that individuals do not have the right to a fair trial merely because of their religion, anything seems possible. Those who think they can build and control anti-Muslim sentiment and abolish the right to a fair trial without any repercussions forget the lessons of the French and Russian revolutions, which led to waves of collective punishments for imagined crimes.  They may find themselves next in the firing line.

There are many secular and moderate religious Muslims in our community. They speak their minds openly and without fear of retribution. Nothing would do more to breed distrust, division and suspicion of Australia among them than establishing a religious test for immigration. Nothing would do more to breed extremism amongst Muslims than laws that ban perfectly innocent, law-abiding people from migrating here on account of their religion.

Contrary to Mr Wilders’ claims, Islam is not a fundamentally extremist creed. Islam is simply a set of religious texts. It is not fundamentally anything. All religious texts contain passages that condone religious war of some kind or another. Centuries ago, Muslim lands were ruled in a manner that was far more tolerant and accepting than their Christian European counterparts, which quashed all dissent. To claim that Islam is a fundamentally extremist creed is an obvious instance of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

While Muslim extremists do advocate violence against non-believers, their influence in Australia should not be overstated. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of Australian Muslims are law-abiding. Terrorism remains exceedingly rare, and most attacks have been prevented by law-enforcement action, sometimes as a result of cooperation with the Muslim community. You are more likely to be hurt climbing a ladder.

Those who argue that Muslim refugees are more likely to be terrorists overlook that these refugees are fleeing a civil war wrought by extremists. These refugees are the people most likely not to adhere to extremist ideologies in the first place. They are also the most likely people to abandon those views once living in our flourishing and free society.

Far from banning Muslim migrants, we must embrace them together with migrants of all backgrounds. Migrants enrich our community and contribute valuable skills in a range of areas in the economy. For decades the bulk of them have integrated successfully into our liberal society. We should celebrate their presence and contribution.

Vladimir Vinokurov is a solicitor and a deputy Victorian State director of the Australian Taxpayers’ Alliance. The views expressed here are his own. Originally published at Menzies House.

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400 Responses to Cross Post: Zeev Vinokurov – Geert Wilders and the ALA do not stand for liberty–they undermine it

  1. ella

    Anarcho- Capitalist Libertarians:

    “These human whirligigs of confusion perpetually pirouette between discussions, trying desperately to live in some undefinable area of the political spectrum. They are at once a refutation and a vindication of the horseshoe theory of politics — that the extreme Right and the extreme Left end up in the same place; a refutation because neither the extreme Right nor the extreme Left wants anything to do with them, but a vindication because they seem to end up in those sad places all the same. Theirs is an existence marked by endless conspiracy theories, utopian delusions, and rags soiled by the reading of the latest Lew Rockwell blog posts.

    For a mercifully long period of time, they have been irrelevant. However, in the present age, they have become a menace to the liberty movement, mostly by virtue of their ghoulishly enthusiastic willingness to apologize for, and make alliances with, the web-grown species of Left-wing fascism known as “Social Justice.” But this is not a surprise. Anarcho-capitalism is simply a Trojan horse for Left-wing anarchism, and those that believe in it are either too deluded to see this, or too beyond reason to care. As to the form Left-wing anarchism takes, it can only be described as, with apologies to Thomas Hobbes, bellum Tumblrum contra omnes.

    In short, anarcho-capitalism is stupid, delusional, crypto-Leftist garbage.

    Oh yeah, you thought Austin’s listicle was bad? It was gentle. He at least believed in this nonsense at one point, and saw the light. You’ll find no such charity here. Anarcho-capitalism is rotten down to its warped bones. It is optically suicidal, congenitally toxic, and philosophically incoherent. At its best, it is nothing but a confused defense of subsidiarity. At its worst, it is sophistry designed to permit fascism of every variety. What is more, it has been tried, and we have seen the outcome, in the real world, or as close as anyone will let this bloodyminded worldview get.”

  2. ella

    Sorry link failing: the Libertarian Republic: Anarcho-Capitalists useful Idiots.

  3. notafan

    I’m sorry Dot but I don’t understand your comment.

    I guess my point is that from a muslim perspective there is no such thing as a secular muslim and those outside looking in who assert that there is either think muslims are a race or that people who have rejected islam are what we are discussing in terms of rejecting muslim immigration.

    There are people who clearly and publically rejected islam in other parts of the world (and risked their lives doing so) who could be assumed to be willing to intergrate into Australian society.

  4. cohenite

    Yep, the secular muslim is the only

    moderate muslim

    ; and the secular muslim is not a muslim.

    This is why they are winning; the West cannot even define the terms of engagement.

  5. .

    In short, anarcho-capitalism is stupid, delusional, crypto-Leftist garbage.


    Unhinged statism.

    There is nothing left wing about anarcho capitalism. Only your perverted mind sees homeschooling and cooperation turn into left wing ideas.

    A kibbutzim may be communistic, but if it is freely entered into and not subsidised, so be it.

    This is the extent that the state should play in our lives:

    Texas Constitution 2000

    Complete Document
    Adopted by the Texas Constitutional Convention of 1997
    on
    12 Dec 1998

    http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=466

    More “left wing delusion”

    http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com.au/2010/06/machinery-of-freedom-is-webbed.html

    Good luck winning an argument with David D Friedman, and he doesn’t argue from authority. Your claims are facile and fallacious.

    Why do you dislike freedom so much though Ella? Can’t get enough of the statues honouring our lord and saviour, Tony Abbott?

  6. Infidel Tiger

    Anarcho-capitalism is the future and I like it.

  7. Roger

    I don’t really get it. Catholics are all now secular, bar the existence of Vatican City.

    That’s too narrow a definition, dot.

    Secular can also denote what “nominal” has come to mean: an adherent of a particular religion or Christian denomination in name only. Ed Husic appears to be a secular or nominal Muslim, in that sense. Yes, he took his oath on the Quran, but he freely admits he doesn’t practice the religion. In that sense he is no different from hundreds of thousands of Anglicans or Catholics who never darken the doorstep of a church but routinely nominate themselves “Anglican” or “Catholic” come the census.

  8. Combine Dave

    Increasing the vote people herds wont result in Anarcho-capitalism.

    More like an incredibly enlarged welfare state, counter terrorism apparatus, more police, more funding needed to help the growing numbers of the generationally welfare dependent througg skills, jobs programs, more welfare, more public housing etc.

  9. ella

    Dot,

    I’m not a Libertarian, although I do share some of your concerns or I wouldn’t be on this blog site.

    The criticism of anarcho-capitalist libertarians is coming from other Libertarians. You are being hammered by other libertarians.

    Sorry about the link fail. It is a libertarian site, if you care to search.

  10. Mrs Beardsley

    Great post! The LDP leadership is totally blind to the threat of Islam. Just mention it on the next night out to any one of a half dozen LDP visionaries or mention it in a facebook discussion. I dropped the LDP like a hot potato when I learned that a) the LDP is an organization which can be counted on to protect Islam and b) a few leaders are well into animal rights and the obvious green tint which accompanies that movement including trespassing into other’s property and lying to get video footage. The LDP is just another loopy left party.

  11. .

    a) the LDP is an organization which can be counted on to protect Islam and b) a few leaders are well into animal rights and the obvious green tint which accompanies that movement including trespassing into other’s property and lying to get video footage. The LDP is just another loopy left party.

    Pure bullshit.

  12. .

    The criticism of anarcho-capitalist libertarians is coming from other Libertarians. You are being hammered by other libertarians.

    They’re talking out of their arse. The links for Freidman and the TCRF worked, go and read them.

  13. Infidel Tiger

    a) the LDP is an organization which can be counted on to protect Islam and b) a few leaders are well into animal rights and the obvious green tint which accompanies that movement including trespassing into other’s property and lying to get video footage.

    Stop fucking lying out of your fucking liehole, you fucking liar.

  14. Oh come on

    I dropped the LDP like a hot potato when I learned that a) the LDP is an organization which can be counted on to protect Islam and b) a few leaders are well into animal rights and the obvious green tint which accompanies that movement including trespassing into other’s property and lying to get video footage. The LDP is just another loopy left party.

    You apparently also dropped your regimen of anti-psychosis medication at the same time.

  15. jupes

    Prediction:

    ALA will gain more votes than the LDP at next year’s election.

  16. .

    I can’t see how Richard Howard, David Leyonhjelm, Ben Buckley or Peter Whelan, all current/former exec members of the LDP or candidates/MPs, as avid shooters, supporters of the ag industry (or farmers themselves, or Jim Munro, a WA Senate candidate and prospector) and outdoorsmen/campers/hunters and some of them dually registered in the ORP can be seen as “pro animal rights” or have a “green tinge”.

    Unless sensibly, these rights entail being blatted with an appropriate long arm and skillfully cooked whilst enjoying a brandy.

    Really Mrs Beardsley, you need to get a grip and stop spouting utter bullshit.

    My post expressing some of MY thoughts about the Greens was posted on this site in the lead up to the 2013 Federal election:

    NOTE THE TITLE: PUT THE GREENS LAST

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/08/15/guest-post-dot-put-the-greens-last/

    An apology is probably in order, if you have any class.

  17. .

    jupes
    #1841007, posted on October 29, 2015 at 4:04 pm
    Prediction:

    ALA will gain more votes than the LDP at next year’s election

    Maybe jupes. They seem to have a bit of momentum.

  18. Infidel Tiger

    Prediction:

    ALA will gain more votes than the LDP at next year’s election.

    Big deal.

    One Nation was quite successful for a period.

  19. cohenite

    Islam will thrive under the left; what will it do under the LDP:

    1 Thrive and continue to dismantle the West
    2 Undergo a massive theological transition making it consistent with libertarianism
    3 All of the above

  20. Oh come on

    Jupes, if they do, I’d be happy. From what I can see, both parties are, by and large, on the side of the angels.

  21. .

    1 Thrive and continue to dismantle the West

    It’s not doing that now. It is losing. That is why Islamists engage in asymmetric warfare.

  22. Oh come on

    cohenite, that’s terribly low-rent trolling, not even worthy of a response – beyond ‘jam a crap in it’, anyway.

  23. jupes

    I can’t see how Richard Howard, David Leyonhjelm, Ben Buckley or Peter Whelan, all current/former exec members of the LDP or candidates/MPs, as avid shooters, supporters of the ag industry (or farmers themselves, or Jim Munro, a WA Senate candidate and prospector) and outdoorsmen/campers/hunters and some of them dually registered in the ORP can be seen as “pro animal rights” or have a “green tinge”.

    Apart from advocating a $1000,000,000 RET that is.

  24. Oh come on

    Actually, I do apologise. I have clearly misunderstood cohenite, who clearly has enormous respect for the LDP. He considers LDP policies so effective that they will force Islam into undergoing a massive theological transformation – a complete revolution, in fact – so that the religion is compatible with libertarianism.

    If the LDP manage this feat, they will have accomplished the greatest single act benefiting mankind for the past century; possibly millenium; possibly of all time.

  25. .

    To recognise hydro power, instead of direct action and the RET as it stands.

    Recognising hydro power would have given people breathing space. Now the rest of the country is going to get the SA virus with no delay.

    Of course, the policy is to oppose anything like the RET, the hydro idea was a stop gap measure.

  26. Fidel

    Do we not have separation of Church and State in Australia?
    As Islam desires to make the laws of a country it controls, how can it be said that
    Islam is just a religion?

  27. Tel

    One Nation was quite successful for a period.

    Anyone starting a book on how many ALA leaders get tossed conveniently in the slammer?

  28. Sinclair Davidson

    Okay – what is a “Bahnisch Barbecue”?

  29. jupes

    Of course, the policy is to oppose anything like the RET, the hydro idea was a stop gap measure.

    “Of course” it is. Which DL made quite clear by advocating for the spending of a lazy $1000,000,000 on the RET.

  30. Gab

    Sinclair

    Infidel Tiger has the answer for you:

    Eating tofu snags with a group of out of shape academics dressed as Sith Lords who are covered in cat fur sounds like a good way to spend a weekend though. Who doesn’t love a rocking party that begins with a Welcome To Country ceremony and and a guy in a C3PO suit madly planting a tree to offset the emissions from the human waste fuelled grill?

  31. Gab

    Oh and a Chairman Mal-shaped cake, gluten-free, of course, for dessert.

  32. Sinclair Davidson

    well, harrumph.

    Nobody thought to call that a Davidson barbecue?

    I can do Darth Vader in a mankini.

  33. Gab

    I’m sure you can-can too. 🙂

  34. srr

    Winston Smith
    #1840788, posted on October 29, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    You know “The Red Zone”, that area of those Victorian Labor ‘Safe’ Seats chock full of Muslims, murders and other gun crimes.

    Actually, that would be an interesting map/project. Do you know of anyone, srr, that’s done this?

    Funny you should say that, but I was putting together such maps, with the various State and Federal Electorates, and their various ministers (back when we were exploring Shorten’s TURC ‘*Mystery Woman’), and then stuff happened, so …

    * the woman working for Noonan, the minister for police and corrections

  35. A Lurker

    Apologies if this has already been posted.

    Truly it is mind blowing.

    p.s. Every dot = 25 people.

  36. .

    jupes
    #1841045, posted on October 29, 2015 at 4:40 pm
    Of course, the policy is to oppose anything like the RET, the hydro idea was a stop gap measure.

    “Of course” it is. Which DL made quite clear by advocating for the spending of a lazy $1000,000,000 on the RET.

    Yes it is.

    Here is the policy

    http://www.ldp.org.au/index.php/policies/1147-energy

  37. .

    Um, so basically people are leaving Russia? Isn’t it the land of milk, honey and good governance?

  38. Rabz

    so basically people are leaving Russia?

    Wonderful. I’ve been missing being able to tell people to “go back to Russia”.

  39. Anne

    Sinc, would you post a picture of yourself in the Darth Vader Mankini get up, please.

    Put it on the banner.

  40. egg_

    All this tripe comes from ignorance.

    Liberty is not the, or even a, base virtue. It is the crowning flower that appears when virtue is possessed. The drive to the possession of virtue over generations resulted in increasing liberty.

    And then we crowned liberty as a virtue itself.

    The drive to virtue resulting in liberty was replaced with a drive for exercise of liberty, regardless of virtue.

    And so gradually true virtue is lost.

    And with its loss goes the sustaining force that lets liberty bloom, and you are left with a rancid mess.

    Precisely.

    One only gets to ponder their navel fluff if they’re a protected species

  41. .

    All this tripe comes from ignorance.

    Liberty is not the, or even a, base virtue. It is the crowning flower that appears when virtue is possessed. The drive to the possession of virtue over generations resulted in increasing liberty.

    And then we crowned liberty as a virtue itself.

    The drive to virtue resulting in liberty was replaced with a drive for exercise of liberty, regardless of virtue.

    And so gradually true virtue is lost.

    And with its loss goes the sustaining force that lets liberty bloom, and you are left with a rancid mess.

    Utter garbage. You don’t have an inviolable right to self defence, free speech or so on?

    These rights only exist because of someone following a religion you like?

    Government only exists because of thugs crowning themselves, not because of a committee of village elders have finished reading Plato’s Republic.

  42. egg_

    Eating tofu snags with a group of out of shape academics dressed as Sith Lords who are covered in cat fur sounds like a good way to spend a weekend though. Who doesn’t love a rocking party that begins with a Welcome To Country ceremony and and a guy in a C3PO suit madly planting a tree to offset the emissions from the human waste fuelled grill?

    A party even trekkies avoid?

  43. cohenite

    srr

    #1841076, posted on October 29, 2015 at 5:11 pm

    Winston Smith
    #1840788, posted on October 29, 2015 at 12:16 pm

    You know “The Red Zone”, that area of those Victorian Labor ‘Safe’ Seats chock full of Muslims, murders and other gun crimes.

    Actually, that would be an interesting map/project. Do you know of anyone, srr, that’s done this?

    Sydney; muslim suburbs, and gun crime suburbs.

  44. cohenite

    asymmetric warfare

    Islam has the will; the West doesn’t; is that what you mean by asymmetric.

  45. Gab

    If communism/socialism did have a religion, it would be islam.

  46. Empire

    Poor scholarship Vlad. Your assertions about what Islam is and is not, are incongruent with the facts.

    Armed with the evidence, you could not logically draw the same conclusion.

  47. egg_

    It is losing*. That is why Islamists engage in asymmetric warfare.

    *For centuries?

  48. Austin Mangosteen

    Oh come on
    #1840883, posted on October 29, 2015 at 1:47 pm

    This really is one of the most ill-considered posts I’ve read on Catallaxy.

    Sinclair is just putting the cat among the pigeons, as he is wont to do from time to time. This is what I like about Catallaxy, many insights are provided in more ways than one.

    Driftforge
    #1840624, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:32 am

    All this tripe comes from ignorance.
    Liberty is not the, or even a, base virtue. It is the crowning flower that appears when virtue is possessed. The drive to the possession of virtue over generations resulted in increasing liberty.
    And then we crowned liberty as a virtue itself.
    The drive to virtue resulting in liberty was replaced with a drive for exercise of liberty, regardless of virtue.
    And so gradually true virtue is lost.

    Interested in your definition of virtue? Virtue to some is having the mind to blow themselves up so they are worthy of 72 virgins (like ten green bottles sitting on the wall, really).

    notafan
    #1840666, posted on October 29, 2015 at 10:25 am

    So if 25 million people from the third world migrate to Australia we will become a freedom utopia.

    Plenty of room in the Desert regions. Only 3% of the Australian population live in the desert. Why not make it 50% of the population on a temporary basis without welfare rights. People have lived in desert regions for millenia and survived through human ingenuity. What right has anyone to suggest Muslims are inferior to other humans that they cannot do the same?

    notafan
    #1840921, posted on October 29, 2015 at 2:20 pm

    I don’t have a solution other than a severe limit on muslim migration

    How about teaching Muslims the values of liberty? Only permitting English-speaking Muslims into the country might be the way to go, as those who cannot speak English are culturally disadvantaged, so better that they settle in a country where their language is spoken among the majority of speakers. Suburbs in Australia that are predominately Islamic are not considered as culturally advantageous to non-English-speaking Muslims because this creates ghettos that are conducive to encouraging the violation of the right to the liberty of assimilation.

    ella
    #1840683, posted on October 29, 2015 at 10:40 am

    Anarcho-capialism is a political philososophy which advocates the elimination of the state in favour of individual sovereignty, private property, and open markets.

    Anarcho-capitalism is an ideal that will never be realized because of human nature, as evident by the feral comments that are found on this site. But Anarcho-capitalism is worthy of bringing to people’s attention, and fighting for all the way to the grave; even from a Christian’s point of view, unless you are completely committed to the Kingdom that is not of this world. Otherwise, we are enslaved to servitude by stealth through the political machinations of those who have no other ambition in life but to actualize their alter ego in the form of the Devil incarnate as did Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and those of their ilk.

    cohenite
    #1840904, posted on October 29, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    The Peshawar story is important because non-violent Muslims accept that pov but don’t enforce it violently.

    Now that forgiving malpractice is the new norm and the barometer is reading stormy at election time, the edict on high is to limit the grumbles to rumors of new possibilities. Ridin’ high in the poles is the new trip.

  49. Empire

    Government only exists because of thugs crowning themselves, not because of a committee of village elders have finished reading Plato’s Republic.

    The entire history of Chinese political order in one sentence. Other civilisations have fleetingly experienced less brutal alternatives.

  50. Harald

    When still in the Netherlands, I was closely following Geert Wilders.
    He is not “amed for his anti-immigration views”. Instead he is famed for his views of Islam.

    Wilders’ views of Islam are very much influenced by reality. The fact that Theo van Gogh was murdered on the streets of Amsterdam, with a death threat pinned to his chest by a knife through the heart.

    Islam inspired the killer. Do I need to add that?
    Islam inspired the countless death threats Wilders has received since.
    Islam inspired the attacks on the WTC.
    Islam inspired the London Tube bombings, the Madrid bombing, the Bali bombing, the Martin Place hostage taking, the attacks on Police officers in Melbourne and Sydney, and however many countless attacks, bombings and shootings I have forgotten here.

    And all of that in the past 15 years.

    On the balance of probabilities Islam will inspire the next heinous attack with mass loss of life in a Western democracy.

    Perhaps I should mention that just before I left the Netherlands I raised with a Dutch MP (of Wilders’ party) an article that stated that the crime stats go up during Ramadan in Kanaleneiland – suburb of Utrecht. Very specifically: Muslim on Non-Muslim crime. The MP raised the issue in parliament and asked questions.

    The Christian equivalent would be that Christians go on a rampage in the lead-up to Christmas.

    Given the above facts, I simply fail to understand the pigheadedness in not recognising that Islam is special. It takes a special kind of stupid to start think that we are looking at a freedom of religion issue when confronted with the above.

    If you think you can speak of Christianity, Judaism and Islam as somehow all the same, because they are all religions, you are suicidally stupid. And if that is the LDP’s position on the matter, I will have no more to do with them.

  51. srr

    Riccardo Bosi
    #1840915, posted on October 29, 2015 at 2:17 pm

    After endless months, nay years of denial, Fatty Snowcone has allowed apostasy to be broadcast on the Their ABC.

    The question must be asked:
    a. why,
    b. why now, and
    c. who gave the orders?

    Indeed –

    SEPARATING THE NUTS FROM THE BOLTS

    Harry Richardson is a long-time student of Islam and author of best seller, “the Story Of Mohammed – Islam Unveiled’, http://thestoryofmohammed.blogspot.com.au

    Sometimes, important moments in history can go by almost unnoticed. The Gettysburg address for instance, was barely remarked upon when it was delivered and when a young Austrian by the name of Adolf Hitler had a dust up in a beer hall, few people paid attention.

    On Oct 14 2015 AD. Melbourne’s Herald Sun published an article by Andrew Bolt with the rather long-winded title, “We Cannot Pretend as Malcolm Turnbull Does That Islam is as Cheek Turning as Christianity”.

    In the article, Bolt explores previously taboo concepts such the fundamental difference between the Islamic and Christian view of violence and conquest.

    He also sets out clearly the concept of the Christian “Golden Rule” and explains how Islam doesn’t have one. He quotes correctly and in context from the Bible, the Koran and the Hadith. In short, he validates and endorses the views of the Pickering Post and its readers.

    We have long suspected Mr Bolt of being a closet Post reader and he has received a copy of my book. How he came by this knowledge however, is unimportant. The fact is, it was published in a major metropolitan newspaper and this is a very big deal. At the Post, we are individuals who have little to lose and rely largely on our own discretion.

    Major newspapers are different. They have a great deal to lose. Everything they publish goes through multiple filters including multi-million dollar legal teams.

    Andrew Bolt, more than any other journalist, knows the dangers of provoking the multicultural juggernaut. He narrowly avoided jail after criticising white people who wanted to be considered black.
    That these ideas made it through all of these filters and on to the pages of a major metropolitan newspaper gives them enormous credibility.

    The ideas articulated by Bolt are now “in play” in the media and I believe other editors and journalists will soon be taking a serious look at them. My own prediction is that Piers Ackerman of the Daily Telegraph will be the next out of the gate for the same reason as Bolt was first.

    While the Left may hate these guys, they can’t dismiss them. Expect to see more and more journalists waking up soon.

    This is to be expected and I have always remained convinced that we will win this struggle. The silver bullet which will do the job is information.

    Once people understand what we are up against, they will desert the multicultural fantasyland in droves. Not only that, but I believe that Islam will be almost completely eliminated from the planet within a shorter time frame than anyone could imagine.

    But (oh God, why is there always a “but”) the question is, at what cost. As Sun Tsu correctly explained, “You should never fight a battle until you have already won it”.

    The decisions which we make now will decide how much blood will be spilt, if or when the shooting starts.

    On this count, Angela Merkel’s recent directives have cemented her position as one of Germany’s worst ever rulers amongst some incredibly serious competition.You might have thought, given Germany’s recent history that Frau Merkel might have thought twice before importing hordes of violent anti-Semites.

    The fact that she didn’t, suggests to me either that she is stupid or that she came under intense pressure we are not aware of. I personally don’t think she is stupid.

    I believe our enemies are desperate. They can sense the growing opposition and are now putting enormous pressure on our rulers to dismantle our defences and leave our societies open to rapid stealth takeover.

    Many of them see a full scale Jihad ahead. Their aim is to put as many of their compatriots inside our borders as possible.

    I am not sure how many Muslims support a full scale ISIS style Jihad, but I have an uncomfortable feeling that the Europeans are about to find out.

    As usual, the island geography of the English-speaking world has saved us from the worst. It is pretty hard to get here on a bicycle. Nonetheless, in a world of mass transportation, it only takes one clown up top to give the order and we will be in as much trouble as Europe.

    It is important to keep the pressure on our pollies. Don’t be afraid to contact them and let them know your views. If your MP is Labor then tell him you will vote Liberal.

    If your MP is a Liberal, you can’t threaten to vote Labor or Green, they will know you are bluffing. Instead, demand that he/she educate themselves about this subject before allowing even more Islamic migrants to come here.

    Remind them of the costs of those we have taken so far such as Man Monis, who came here as a refugee. Farhad Jabar Khalil Mohammad (the Parramatta shooter) probably did too but no journalists seem to think it important enough to mention.

    There are of course thousands of genuine Christian and Yazidi refugees in the Middle East. We can’t however ask the Government to bring in non-Muslim refugees only.

    Section 116 of the constitution forbids Government from religious discrimination. We can however request that the Government withdraw from treaties which allow the UNHCR to tell us which refugees we must take.

    Keep up the good work in educating friends and family through websites, facebook, twitter etc.
    [If you would like to give copies of my book away as Christmas presents I have a special offer on for those wishing to buy 10 copies. Contact me at [email protected] to take advantage.]

    http://pickeringpost.com/story/separating-the-nuts-from-the-bolts-/5500

  52. egg_

    The entire history of Chinese political order in one sentence. Other civilisations have fleetingly experienced less brutal alternatives.

    Hence, Sun Tzu’s ‘Art of War’.

  53. cohenite

    Austin Mangosteen

    #1841191, posted on October 29, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    Now that forgiving malpractice is the new norm and the barometer is reading stormy at election time, the edict on high is to limit the grumbles to rumors of new possibilities. Ridin’ high in the poles is the new trip.

    What the fuck does that mean?

  54. Y

    Anarcho-capitalism is the future and I like it

    I don’t know. Kind of partial to techno-libertarianism myself.

  55. David

    From Oh Come On at 1:47

    Western civilisation wages war against its enemies with a brutal and unceasing intensity unmatched by any other civilisation on the planet.

    See “The Western Way of War” by Victor David Hanson for a good analysis

  56. .

    Anarcho-capitalism is an ideal that will never be realized because of human nature

    Anarcho capitalism has existed in history to an extent so your idea is plainly wrong.

    It is also here because of disruptive technology.

    I still see there re critics to Freidman’s Machinery of Freedom, but no arguments.

  57. Austin Mangosteen

    Sorry cohenite. I credited you with more imagination.

    The ABC is forgiving Liberal leaders these days and Tony Jones is permitted to reveal some of his true feelings. (Like all the the ABC, the staff are only fake socialists, they cannot get the same remuneration in the commercial world). Got to keep Malcom Turnbull on top in the poles.

  58. Harald

    O… My…. God…

    “Centuries ago, Muslim lands were ruled in a manner that was far more tolerant and accepting than their Christian European counterparts, which quashed all dissent.”

    Where and when was that?

    Ever heard of the Dhimma? And what a devastating effect that has had on the Jewish and Christian populations under Islamic rule? If it was such a tolerant place, where are all the Nestorian Christians, where are all the Jews that populated the Arabian Peninsula, where are all the Coptic Christians who populated Egypt, where are all the Armenians who populated the eastern part of Turkey, where are all the Christians who populated western Turkey, where are all the Zoroastrians of Persia, where are all the ?
    .
    Where are they, Zeev? Don’t you think they would have stayed in the paradise that was your muslim lands muslim lands?

    About 270 million people dead, Zeev. That’s what happened. And it happened in the name of Allah and his messenger.

    Some wake-up reading:
    The Decline of Eastern Christianity – by Bat Ye’or
    Mohammed & Charlemagne Revisited – by Emmet Scot
    The Burning Tigris – by Peter Balakian
    Smyrna 1922 – Marjorie Dobkin

    Those should provide you with a sobering account of the fate of non-Muslims under Islamic rule. And they are fully consistent with reality: that there are hardly any non-Muslims left under Islamic rule in Arabia, Turkey, the entire northern African coast.

  59. cohenite

    Austin Mangosteen

    #1841291, posted on October 29, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    Sorry cohenite. I credited you with more imagination.

    Right, so you imagined I had more imagination.

    As regards the abc are you saying they prefer turnbull to the left in any form?

  60. Anne

    Immigrate, Infiltrate, Caliphate.

    “Muslims of Norway are now demanding a separate Islamic state and threaten terrorist actions if their demands are not met.

    Norway has already completed phase 3 of Islamization. The following explains the three phases.

    Phase 1: When muslims constitute 1-3% of the population. Their behavior in society is decent and non intrusive.

    Phase 2: When Muslims constitute 4-20% of the population, political demands begin, such as building of mosques, minarets, bans on Christian ceremonies and events and celebrations Muslim holidays like Ramadan.

    Phase 3: When muslims constitute over 20% of the population a holy war begins (jihad). Muslim areas of the city (ghettos) now become inaccessible to non-Muslims. Full implementation of ghetto Sharia laws begin, along with conducting terrorist attacks for secession and the creation of an Islamic state.”

    https://xaameriki.wordpress.com/2013/11/24/muslims-in-norway-now-demand-a-separate-state-greece-will-soon-see-similar/

  61. Austin Mangosteen

    Dot, where is the UTOPIA?

    Human nature is to abuse when things do not go the way one would like to prevail. Verbal abuse leads to physical abuse and a violation of rights. Prove me wrong. I would be delighted. Only where are you going to begin. The world is in turmoil. On the streets of Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne, and even Alice Springs.

    Feuds do arise from respecting each other’s rights. So in the good ol’ days grand-pappy resorted to the shotgun and other defense mechanisms, just to defend his land rights. Ten generations earlier the situation regarding land rights would arise and before the time of muskets there was still warfare, regardless of how property rights were resolved when one person wanted more than his share.

    Nevertheless, this does not mean that the concept of anarcho-capitalism is not valid. Fundamentally, and ideally, anarcho-capitalism provides an environment wherein we all are able to fulfill our potential in what we have been empowered to do for the good of all.

    True individuality is only found when we permit our potential as individuals to mature within a society where each one respects each other. When that happens, utopia! A few may achieve their potential, but most do not and run around like chooks with their heads cut off, and that is without having to go to Iraq or Syria.

  62. Stimpson J. Cat

    Austin, I love you, but small words please.

  63. Austin Mangosteen

    cohenite
    #1841322, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:02 pm

    As regards the abc are you saying they prefer turnbull to the left in any form?

    No I am saying that they are a bunch of hypocritics milking the system. They will look left but turn right as soon as the color of the money tickles their fancy. Some of them may be genuine Trotskyites, but most are cowardly hypocrites who whinge and cringe behind a barricade of closed doors. Leigh Sales might come out and savage a Liberal parliamentarians when that is her role for the night, but as soon as the money is on the table she is not donating it to the sisterhood who have just been clipped by in accordance to the dictates of the local custom down at Lakemba.

    They are not all ideologues. Mark Scott and Turnbull are great mates.

  64. Stimpson J. Cat

    I can do Darth Vader in a mankini

    I find the thought of you as Darth Vader in a mankini…disturbing.

  65. .

    Austin – so what? All competing theories of social order have a criminal law aspect to them.

    I can’t see any example in the real world (Californian gold fields, medieval Iceland, Quaker Pennsylvania) or argument made by David D Freidman or HH Hoppe that supports your idea.

  66. Austin Mangosteen

    Stimpson J. Cat
    #1841341, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:20 pm

    Austin, I love you, but small words please.

    Stimpson, I will try not to vex you. But some ideas require syllables being grouped together.

  67. Austin Mangosteen

    I can’t see any example in the real world (Californian gold fields, medieval Iceland, Quaker Pennsylvania) or argument made by David D Freidman or HH Hoppe that supports your idea.

    In isolated instances, it has occurred. But where are they now. Those communities are long gone. Even if you were to go to Amish communities in Pennsylvania, which are the probably not exactly the same as the goldfields, but more in like with the Quaker’s, even there utopia is restricted. Unfortunately, even among the Amish the iniquities of human nature ravage their society, even if they are kept under the barn floors.

  68. Snoopy

    Dot, you should have be pushing for immigration from Oman. Now they are cool. Really. Read some of their history.

  69. .

    Seems like you’re trying to flog me a Hobbesian horse and argue against the harm theory of Mill.

    Friedman explains how defence would work with privatised militaries. The technology exists that anarchic Iceland and the Quakers* would still be here (but the Quakers would not take it up).

    The Quakers still had tax – but very low, only a general consumption tax, cider excise and export tariff on furs etc.

  70. .

    Snoopy
    #1841363, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:38 pm
    Dot, you should have be pushing for immigration from Oman. Now they are cool. Really. Read some of their history.

    You sound ridiculous Snoopy.

    An immigration tariff would exclude most Muslims, except the Qataris based on average incomes.

    So you could closely monitor a few hundred a year, rather than tens of thousands.

    Not good enough for the fanatical anti Muslims, hence the “Qatari” meme.

    You think this is absurd because you want zero Muslim immigration, and others literally want to deport Muslims and nuke Mecca and Medina.

    Somehow your fellow travelers think idle talk like this helps the ALA.

    Poor bastards.

  71. wreckage

    If you think you can speak of Christianity, Judaism and Islam as somehow all the same, because they are all religions, you are suicidally stupid.

    It should be pointed out that in Judaism even at the time of Christ “Love God, love your neighbour” was a pretty persuasive summary of Judaic ethics. One of the reasons for this was the call to war in the OT was by prophets, by decree, not by holy writ.

    Holy writ was “Honour God, honour your mother and father, do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery.” In Jewish tradition it is considered best to always be more than one step from sin, this was carried into Christianity and codified in Catholic ethics: If it is wrong to kill, it is wrong to hurt. If it is wrong to steal it is wrong to con or embezzle. If it is wrong to commit adultery it is wrong to commit a whole range of sexual sins, including sex with captives and slaves.

    In Judaism and Christianity it is far more important to avoid sin one’s self than to stamp it out in others; for any sin is fatal to the soul, and so, risking sin in the course of a holy war is still risking one’s soul, and outsiders (other nations for Judaism, unblievers for Christians) are not, in any orthodox thought, obligated to follow religious morality. Catholic religious edicts never applied to actual pagans OR TO JEWS OR MUSLIMS, at least, that’s the theory. It got muddied in the politics of the time, but the recognized teaching of the Rabbis, Bishops and of the accepted interpretations of the texts are consistent and clear.

    Mohammed specifically overturned this in a reversion to the ancient Semitic war-god worship, which gave all captured EVERYTHING to the victorious warrior, but far from making a decree for a time of war, which then expired when the grudge did, he made it into a permanent sacred edict. (Moses had possibly still permitted this during the Conquest, but Judaic ethics and piety ultimately won out.)

  72. Driftforge

    Interested in your definition of virtue? Virtue to some is having the mind to blow themselves up so they are worthy of 72 virgins (like ten green bottles sitting on the wall, really).

    Virtue ? The capacity for self-restraint, the capacity for self sacrifice, the capacity for righteous anger, the capacity to care for your people and your place. It is expressed in a multitude of different ways.

    The simple notion is that you can be free to do what ever you want when you have the capacity to restrain yourself from doing so.

    Utter garbage. You don’t have an inviolable right to self defence, free speech or so on?

    These rights only exist because of someone following a religion you like?

    Government only exists because of thugs crowning themselves, not because of a committee of village elders have finished reading Plato’s Republic.

    You don’t have a right to anything. ‘Rights’ are leftist bullshit. You have the capacity for something, or you do not. You extend certain courtesies to others who extend the same to you. There is no reason to extend those courtesies to those outside the group when they will only take advantage of them.

    And yes, ‘thugs’ crowning themselves is the first basis of government. ‘Thugs’ built the foundations of Western Civilisation, or rather, their descendants did. There’s a couple bootstrap upgrades that have gone on, but it’s important to realise that the organised capacity for violence is the root of all power.

  73. wreckage

    In Judaism and Christianity it is far more important to avoid sin one’s self than to stamp it out in others; for any sin is fatal to the soul, and so, risking sin in the course of a holy war is still risking one’s soul

    Quoting myself. This bit here is pretty redolent of Buddhism, Yobbo. In that respect the ethics of Buddhism, Christianity and Judaism are very similar (as were classical Greek ethics).

  74. Snoopy

    Dot, you didn’t Wiki did you? I was being serious.
    The Omamis flogged the North Yemenis back in the day. When was the last time you heard anything bad about Oman?

  75. Driftforge

    An immigration tariff would exclude most Muslims, except the Qataris based on average incomes.

    Because average incomes matter when looking to insert a fifth column into a rival nation.

  76. Fisky

    An immigration tariff would exclude most Muslims, except the Qataris based on average incomes.

    The problem is that you don’t actually support an immigration tariff. You are against the idea but continue to promote it anyway.

  77. Infidel Tiger

    Fisk, our talk of Bahnsich bbqs has reached the man himself.

    They are not impressed.

  78. Fisky

    Fisk, our talk of Bahnsich bbqs has reached the man himself.

    They are not impressed.

    Ahahahahaha! Really?

  79. .

    Fisky
    #1841386, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:59 pm
    An immigration tariff would exclude most Muslims, except the Qataris based on average incomes.

    The problem is that you don’t actually support an immigration tariff. You are against the idea but continue to promote it anyway.

    I do support the immigration tariff. You need to stop straight up lying about what others are saying. I think more private property rights, as Hoppe suggests, is even better. The issue is, and always will be (for most policy matters) about public spaces.

  80. Chris M

    All religious texts contain passages that condone religious war of some kind or another. Centuries ago, Muslim lands were ruled in a manner that was far more tolerant and accepting than their Christian European counterparts

    Utterly ignorant fool or liar?

    Yes, a lawyer so that answers the question….

  81. notafan

    Further to my comments as to why muslim women must be covered in public , and in stricter muslim societies only allowed out in public if accompanied by a male relative.
    The translation from Arabic or Persian? is poor but it reinforces that muslim women must be covered to avoid arousing men and as a logical next step why non muslim women are fair game.

    Link to My Stealth Freedom page on the lack of responsibility muslim men have for lust

  82. Austin Mangosteen

    Driftforge
    #1841379, posted on October 29, 2015 at 9:51 pm

    Virtue ? The capacity for self-restraint, the capacity for self sacrifice, the capacity for righteous anger, the capacity to care for your people and your place. It is expressed in a multitude of different ways.
    The simple notion is that you can be free to do what ever you want when you have the capacity to restrain yourself from doing so.

    .

    Thanks.

  83. Fisky

    I do support the immigration tariff. You need to stop straight up lying about what others are saying. I think more private property rights, as Hoppe suggests, is even better. The issue is, and always will be (for most policy matters) about public spaces.

    Actually, that’s not true. You don’t support it. You argued against the idea at length when it was first proposed.

    http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2011/02/13/giving-away-our-sovereignty/#comment-98013

  84. srr

    October 29, 2015
    13 reasons why we should not admit Muslim ‘refugees’
    By Carol Brown

    President Obama wants to flood this country with “Syrian refugees.” As most AT readers know, we should not admit a single one. Unfortunately, a lot of folks are in the dark about what’s going on and/or are so brainwashed by politically correct thinking they dare not acknowledge the truth. We need to keep chipping away at this gargantuan problem of Americans choosing stupidity over survival.

    Any one of the reasons noted below should be sufficient to make the case as to why we must close our doors to Muslims pouring out of Islamic countries heading points West. But in case you encounter someone who is truly thick (and there are a lot of them out there), it’s always best to have several facts on hand.

    Read the 13 reasons and the many included links at –
    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/10/13_reasons_why_we_should_not_admit_muslim_refugees.html

    Each and every one of us must do all that can to educate others about this Islamic advance against the West and what it means for our future.

  85. jupes

    An immigration tariff would exclude most Muslims, except the Qataris based on average incomes.

    LOL

    Still banging on about the Qataris Dot.

    You really are a special kind of dickhead.

  86. Fisky

    You really are a special kind of dickhead.

    I don’t think dickhead is warranted at all. But dot’s tendency to rationalise and double down on untenable ideological positions is not helping.

  87. Andrew

    You really are a special kind of dickhead.

    I don’t think dickhead is warranted at all. But dot’s tendency to rationalise and double down on untenable ideological positions is not helping.

    Either their actual policy on immigration and border control is repugnant to their target market OR it’s a good policy that they’re utterly incapable of articulating and selling.

    Either way, why doesn’t the LDP simply drop it and have no immigration policy at all? Just accept that they have utterly bungled immigration and leave it out of the platform. Concentrate on stuff that DOESN’T produce reactions like we’ve seen on this thread.

  88. I don’t really get it. Catholics are all now secular, bar the existence of Vatican City.

    Before 1798, we weren’t.

    wtf? Did you mean 1789? If so, that still doesn’t make the above any clearer. And the inclusion of the Vatican City as an exception to secularity even though it is in fact the quintessentially worldly aspect of the Catholic Church suggests that you don’t really know what the qualifier, secular, actually achieves.

    So, I’m still at a loss at what the qualifier ‘secular’ actually achieves when used to describe so-called secular Muslims in debates about Islam.

  89. Jannie

    The LDP web site policies all seem pretty sensible to me, except the immigration policy looks a tad naive. We are just as likely to be inundated by waves of Muslims from Europe, as we are from the ME.

    A lot of Muslims in Europe are going to be looking for a softer welfare system than Europe will be able to afford, so they will be targeting Oz as relatively green fields where there ain’t many Muslims. A lot of European Europeans are going to be fleeing the ghetto plagued hamlets and burgs for the same reason.

  90. .

    Fisk stop the prevaricating and accept that I think it is a second best solution.

    Dickhead jupes?

    Ask most Australians what they think of your rabid “deport Muslims and nuke Mecca” fantasies.

  91. Mrs Beardsley

    I would invite gentle readers to the Facebook page of ALS or to attend Liberty on the Rocks and mention the I-word. You independent thinkers will need to work it out for yourselves. I have come to the conclusion that the LDP is terminally naive about the obvious and demonstrable threat of Islam.

  92. .

    …and I note you laughably, bizarely and incredibly reckoned the LDP (and their leadership) were some front for eco lunacy.

  93. cohenite

    srr’s 13 reasons against islamic ‘refugees’ includes consanguinity which is another forbidden topic to do with islam. Some useful links are here and for the benefit of fisk I make the usual disclaimer that any reference to anti-semitic parties, groups or philosophy is unintended, immaterial and abhorrent. Any reference to islam is intended.

  94. Combine Dave

    Anarcho capitalism has existed in history to an extent so your idea is plainly wrong.

    It is also here because of disruptive technology.

    I still see there re critics to Freidman’s Machinery of Freedom, but no arguments.

    Did any of these historical examples involve open borders, a huge welfare state and an influx of muslim visitors?

  95. Combine Dave

    Fisk stop the prevaricating and accept that I think it is a second best solution.

    Dickhead jupes?

    Ask most Australians what they think of your rabid “deport Muslims and nuke Mecca” fantasies

    During the Sydney siege it was hard to find an Australian not saying this (aside from those wearing head cosies/head scarves)

  96. cohenite

    Another reason, or is it, why the West is losing: Sergeant Alexander Blackman.

    The issue is does Blackman demonstrate an unacceptable dilution of the values which distinguish Western culture from Islamic culture; and is a dilution of those values necessary to defeat islam?

  97. jupes

    Ask most Australians what they think of your rabid “deport Muslims and nuke Mecca” fantasies.

    Why do you always resort to lies and slander when your idiocy is exposed?

  98. srr

    I really have to wonder about those who still keep telling us that what has been happening in the UK and Europe for decades, and only getting worse instead of better, won’t happen here.

    Are they really that stupid, or are they simply traitorous filth who believe everyone else is that stupid?

    I made a number of posts from the UK’s Express on the open thread this morning, that probably should have been posted here. Here’s the first one of many more all on the same topic –

    Top Brussels chief admits EU risks DISINTEGRATING over migrant crisis

    A TOP Brussels politician has admitted the European Union risks disintegrating over the ongoing migrant crisis, as tensions between member states threaten to boil over.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/615644/Europe-migrant-crisis-EU-disintegrate-Federica-Mogherini-Hungary-legal-action-quota

    So of course, the financial threats and blackmail are ramped up again, because that always works –


    US diplomat sparks transatlantic trade row over Brit EU exit

    A SENIOR American diplomat provoked anger last night after claiming that Britain will not get a trade deal with the US if it quits the EU.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/615662/Michael-Froman-UK-Brussels-trade-agreement-avoid-higher-tariffs-stay

    Funny, but I always thought it was difficult to enjoy your worldly wealth when you give up your freedom, head, home and country to those already boldly telling you that they are coming to take it all from you.

  99. Elizabeth (Lizzie) B.

    it’s important to realise that the organised capacity for violence is the root of all power.

    As history shows.
    How power is used though is subject to many overlays.

  100. .

    jupes
    #1841643, posted on October 30, 2015 at 9:12 am
    Ask most Australians what they think of your rabid “deport Muslims and nuke Mecca” fantasies.

    Why do you always resort to lies and slander when your idiocy is exposed?

    I’m not lying though.

    Fisk et. al have consistently lied.

  101. jupes

    The issue is does Blackman demonstrate an unacceptable dilution of the values which distinguish Western culture from Islamic culture;

    No. The object of warfare is to kill the enemy. Well it used to be anyway. Rules laid down in the Geneva convention only work as long as both sides are following them. If only one side follows the rules it gives a massive advantage to the side that doesn’t.

    There were very few prisoners taken on the Kokoda track.

    and is a dilution of those values necessary to defeat islam?

    Yes it is. When lawyers must approve not only the rules of engagement, but all battle plans, then the chance of victory goes out the window as the strengthening Taliban and IS demonstrate.

  102. srr

    jupes
    #1841643, posted on October 30, 2015 at 9:12 am

    Ask most Australians what they think of your rabid “deport Muslims and nuke Mecca” fantasies.

    Why do you always resort to lies and slander when your idiocy is exposed?

    Because it works.

    Remember Dot’s Stasi List?

    Why wouldn’t cats clamour to be on Dot’s List of ‘Approved Persons’, when not being on it meant that (like yourself, makka, me and more than a few others), Dot, JC and Co. would ‘debate’ you by simply lying about everything you say, and no one else would call them out on it, but rather, when pressed, forgive them as otherwise, ‘good guys’?

    It’s all classic Alinsky shit; tried and proven to work against the majority of the highly social creature that mankind is.

    But draw attention to that fact (and the many other Leftist tactics they employ), and they simply cry, “Bullshit! We’re Libertarians! You must be a loon if you see us behaving like dictators!”.

  103. jupes

    By the way those ‘values’ are not traditional western values.

    They have been introduced since WW2. Back in the day the only use for lawyers was when the war was won and they were brought in to prosecute the enemy.

    If we fought WW2 using the same rules as used in the Middle East we would be speaking Japanese now.

  104. jupes

    Remember Dot’s Stasi List?

    I don’t actually. I imagine it would be very small.

  105. .

    Your babbling is almost a script SRR.

    1. You still think google, Obama, libertarians etc control your computer.
    2. I’ve consistently said the same thing about immigration. The policy I (right now, LDP policy) want would see a reduction in Muslim immigration, even if it is not the aim of the policy. Can you chew gum and walk at the same time and be pragmatic or is that beyond you?
    3. People overreact because I don’t agree exactly with their ideas.
    4. Thus, I am subject to a lot of personal abuse.
    5. The foundation of 3. is a tin eared perspective that all Muslims are secretly Jihadists or want Sharia law.
    6. As for 4. the illucid crap about the LDP being an eco loony front is beyond parody befitting the onion.
    7. People have said they want Muslims banned, deported or nuked. Or that it would be better if they didn’t exist. I’m not “lying” by bringing that up.
    8. How does 7. help the ALA?
    9. As for 2., Hoppe’s ideas are best, then Friedman, then the LDP policy, then Abbott’s. I’ve said OSB was a change for the better. Fisk and so on cannot accept there is even a trade off and refuse to concede any refugees are genuine – Morrison once as an aside in a presser said 10% or less. I’ve also consistently said that border policies need to suit realities – hence Israel’s border control is acceptable in their circumstances. The idea that any of the above ignores culture is a nonsense as they all discriminate in some manner.
    10. You need to get a new meme re: Alinksy. You have some of the most radical and bizzare ideas and you personalise everything.

  106. Roger

    In that respect the ethics of Buddhism, Christianity and Judaism are very similar (as were classical Greek ethics).

    And Confucianism.

    This is because a good deal of ethics can be derived from natural law, what CS Lewis called ‘the Tao’ in The Abolition of Man.

    A short read but an invaluable warning concerning the moral collapse that was about to beset Western civilisation when Lewis wrote it (1943).

  107. .

    11. Of course OSB was better than Gillard’s absurd and cruel swap with Malaysia (which failed anyway).
    12. In no way is what Merkel doing “libertarian” nor does any libertian support that. Fisk is either very confused or refuses to post sober anymore. It is unfortunate that Fisk keeps on saying this is supported by groups like the IPA and LDP.

  108. srr


    Rules laid down in the Geneva convention only work as long as both sides are following them. If only one side follows the rules it gives a massive advantage to the side that doesn’t.

    and is a dilution of those values necessary to defeat islam?

    Yes it is. When lawyers must approve not only the rules of engagement, but all battle plans, then the chance of victory goes out the window as the strengthening Taliban and IS demonstrate.

    Yep, Islam and the Left have long known they could never win at Warfare, and so, made the game, Lawfare –

    The Geneva Conventions are a series of treaties on the treatment of civilians, prisoners of war (POWs) and soldiers who are otherwise rendered hors de combat, or incapable of fighting. The first Convention was initiated by the International Committee for Relief to the Wounded (which became the International Committee for the Red Cross and Red Crescent). …
    .
    … additional regulations regarding the treatment of civilians were introduced. Specifically, it prohibits attacks on civilian hospitals, medical transports, etc. [where Muslim base their forces]
    .
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/geneva_conventions

  109. Roger

    A growing irritant: According to Niall Ferguson in WSJ (pay walled) deaths from terrorism have multiplied six-fold since 2010.

  110. jupes

    People have said they want Muslims banned, deported or nuked. Or that it would be better if they didn’t exist. I’m not “lying” by bringing that up.

    Dot you often lie when you quote me. Then you lie about lying.

    That plus your Qatari love makes you the prize dickhead on this blog.

  111. Snoopy

    I am subject to a lot of personal abuse.

    Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

    Stop it Dot. My sides are aching

  112. cohenite

    Islam infiltrates its Western host in 2 ways; incrementally, the so-called moderate form and through aggression and violence, the so-called non-muslim or radical approach.

    In terms of belief there is no distinction between the 2 approaches but in response the West can only counter islam within its borders by incremental measures:

    1 Ban physical manifestations of islam, the burqa, mosques, halal.
    2 Terrorism laws must be targeted against islam not against the Australian population en masse.
    3 Mosques in particular must be regulated because obviously indoctrination occurs in them
    4 Consideration given to removing tax exempt status for islam.
    5 Stopping further Islamic immigration

  113. Zippy The Younger

    5. The foundation of 3. is a tin eared perspective that all Muslims are secretly Jihadists or want Sharia law.

    What individual muslims want is irrelevant, the vast majority are effectively enslaved by an ideology of jihad. If they publically stray from the fundamentalist line they are often brought back into line with violence.

    We bombed the crap out civilians fighting nazis in Germany in the extermination of nazism.

    The only tin eared perspective here is the LDP and other politicians thinking mulsims can be appeased.

  114. A Lurker

    Fisk and so on cannot accept there is even a trade off and refuse to concede any refugees are genuine

    This point needs to be discussed.
    Of course there are genuine refugees. However when thousands of ‘refugees’ are lobbing up in boats or 100,000’s of thousands of them are crossing borders -how many Governments comprehensively examine each person as to their refugee status or not – especially when so many of them are being deceptive about their nationality, their point of origin, their age, their religion, if they are being persecuted or not, if they are extremists, if they are members of a terrorist organisation, or if they are criminals – especially since most are sans ID/documentation.

    All that checking takes resources – time, money, effort – and while the checking goes on, thousands more lob up at the front door (or try to sneak in the back door, or through an open window).
    For European Governments it is far simpler to simply wave them through and deal with the social, economic, and cultural consequences later on. Too bad so sad if you are importing p**philes, criminals, terrorists, enemy agents etc.

    The sensible method is to simply lock the door and tell the gatecrashers to pi$$ off – then choose culturally integrable refugees from camps.

  115. srr

    See, again, all Dot has, is lying about what others say/believe, and then using those foundational lies to stack yet more lies on.

    Dot, the wanna-be lawyer … what is it about Liars, Lawyers, Lawfare Leftists and Islam …

  116. srr

    O.K. Dot’s BSing here, on this seriously important topic, justifies more of the news on the topic that that Dot’s BSing here is intended to divert us from. So again, from the OT –

    Now Brussels wants £384m MORE from UK to tackle the migrant crisis

    DAVID Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s European Union membership was described as “a sham” after it was decided the UK may have to pay £384MILLION MORE to Brussels to tackle the migrant crisis.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/615489/European-Union-EU-Brussels-Britain-to-pay-more-for-migrant-crisis

    Saudi prince demands Britain respects Sharia law amid breakdown between countries

    SAUDI Arabia’s ambassador to the UK has warned of the “potentially serious repercussions” of a breakdown in relations between the two countries.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/614618/Mohammed-bin-Nawaf-bin-Abdulaziz-Saudi-Arabia-David-Cameron-Jeremy-Corbyn?utm_source=traffic.outbrain&utm_medium=traffic.outbrain&utm_term=traffic.outbrain&utm_content=traffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain

    Fury as Islamic group orders Muslims in Rotherham to BOYCOTT police over child sex scandal

    AN Islamic group in Rotherham which has vowed to boycott the police over the devastating child sex abuse scandal have been blasted for thinking they are “above the law”.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/615246/Rotherham-sex-scandal-Islamic-British-Muslim-Youth-boycott-South-Yorkshire-Police?utm_source=traffic.outbrain&utm_medium=traffic.outbrain&utm_term=traffic.outbrain&utm_content=traffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain

    Now Dot, tell the Brits and Europeans suffering under Islamic infiltration, what a tin ear they have to your UN International Law, law-faring BS.

  117. .

    So basically I offended three out of the next five commenters after my last comment for pointing out to openly express the desire to kill millions of Muslims does not help the ALA.

    Some of you should know better. SRR should get a job or more medication.

    The legal industry is not predicated on leftism or Islam. It is predicated by having a country or economy that exists.

  118. cohenite

    I don’t want to kill millions of muslims; but the cycle of indoctrination and the grotesque values of islam must be broken. Now how is that going to be done? Who in islam will resist this and how can they be dealt with? Where do you start in changing islam?

  119. jupes

    The legal industry is not predicated on leftism or Islam.

    The legal industry exists to complicate the world and thus make more work for itself. It’s mission is to infiltrate and control every part of society.

    Never mind if murderers get off, wars are lost, Muslims are encouraged to invade or society is regulated up the ying yang, as long as they are controlling it and raking in the loot then all is good.

    It takes a special type of unproductive fuckwit to be a lawyer so it’s no surprise that you are a try hard wannabee lawyer Dot.

  120. Zippy The Younger

    It takes a special type of unproductive fuckwit to be a lawyer

    I have certainly seen unscrupulous scum lawyers throw petrol on inflammatory situations to ensure a rapid and thorough extraction of fees, particularly but not limited to the family court circus.

  121. srr

    . [Dot]
    #1841823, posted on October 30, 2015 at 11:51 am

    So basically I offended three out of the next five commenters after my last comment for pointing out to openly express the desire to kill millions of Muslims does not help the ALA.

    Some of you should know better. SRR should get a job or more medication.

    The legal industry is not predicated on leftism or Islam. It is predicated by having a country or economy that exists.

    So pointing out that –

    Muslims are ramping up their vow to kill or enslave all who won’t convert to Islam (and just kill J.ws because they just love killing J.ws), and that those like Dot give them aid, comfort and tax payer funded lawyers to get them into the countries they’re invading, and keep them there and out of gaol, as they continue their avowed Jihad

    – is evil in Dot’s mind.

    Dot, The Mega-Booster For the LDP.

    Dot, do please, keep lying, and keep smearing those you smear, and backing those you back.

  122. .

    It takes a special type of unproductive fuckwit to be a lawyer so it’s no surprise that you are a try hard wannabee lawyer Dot.

    Ironic in that this would require experiential knowledge jupes.

    SRR you are completely off your head. Note I ripped into banz for tolerating anti semitism on Menzies House. He told me I should go kill myself. Where have I ever said we shouldn’t use force to deal with terrorists, ISIS and so forth?

    You certainly make your life your own because you have invented your own reality.

    Not a single thing I have said on this thread is a smear. It is the truth.

    You guys can’t even stay on topic, you troll to have a flame war with me and spread libel about the LDP.

    You actually hate me (and the LDP) because I don’t share your Q society view of ALL Muslims (only some).

    Take a step back and you ought to realise you hate most of your own countrymen (the vast majority of whom won’t even meet you halfway as I have and do).

    You guys aren’t helping the ALA at all. They don’t want this sort of attention. They make it very clear what they believe in and what views they find unacceptable. I’ll stop replying so you stop shooting your preferred political party in the feet.

  123. srr

    Rudiau
    #1841705, posted on October 30, 2015 at 10:13 am

    A cranky Pat Condell rant, he needs to get a tinfoil hat, talk about conspiracy theories “What we have now in Europe is the worst of all possible worlds, a kind of mutant statist corporate socialism imposed from above by an unaccountable dogma obsessed political ptiesthood” — sheesh!

    The decline and fall of the European Union

    Wow.
    Listen to what he says, and then read it being done to us here, now, via the Sydney Morning Herald and TheirGlobalist Education, Business, Media, Political clASSes –

    The racist fringe must be cut before it grows stronger

    October 25, 2015

    ?Betina Szkudlarek
    If we don’t curtail growing anti-immigration rhetoric, we risk going down the same intolerant path as Europe.

    … groups such as the United Patriots Front and Reclaim Australia are no longer isolated on the fringes of society. With political movements such as the Rise Up Australia Party and the newly launched Australian Liberty Alliance the country is opening a path to institutionalisation of hate speech and racism. And, while many of us want to believe that these voices within the Australian community are still very limited, recent opinion polls show an increasing support …

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-racist-fringe-must-be-cut-before-it-grows-stronger-20151021-gkew87.html

    Hard to believe she isn’t a key member of Dot’s bitterly Anti-ALA circle –

    ?Betina Szkudlarek

    [cop the shit she writes and the shit she writes it for]
    http://sydney.edu.au/business/staff/betinasz

    Betina Szkudlarek is a Senior Lecturer in Management at The University of Sydney Business School.

    She obtained her PhD in Management cum laude from the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University (The Netherlands) where she worked as an Assistant Professor prior to joining the UoS.

    Betina’s core research interests lie at the intersection of cross-cultural management, international HRM, international business ethics, and, management of diversity.

    Her work has been published in top-tier international journals such as Organization Studies, Journal of Business Ethics, and Academy of Management Learning and Education.

    Betina has a wide experience in training, coaching and mentoring in various areas linked to intercultural communication, global leadership development, human resources and management of diversity.

    She has worked with corporate and governmental clients including, among others, Shell, Deutsche Telekom, Daimler, MAN, Kaspersky, and Q8.

  124. srr

    Dot, I note that liars, lie, whenever it suits them, about whatever it suits them to lie about.
    I also note that your readiness to lie, smear and libel, is well known and much lamented.

    ‘Ripping into’ anti-Semites when cornered and attacked by Patriots and Christians for being a sickening apologist for Islam and the LDP, is hardly evidence of holding a position of integrity.

    I also note that you and other names of your bent, obsessively hound those who make sound, valid points against your LDP boostering position; declaring them people who no one else should bother reading let alone taking seriously; declaring them 50 shades of lying loonatics in a hundred and one ridiculous, small and utterly made up ways, and yet, worthy of your constant attention.

    I note a great deal Dot. I note much more than I ever respond to.

    I also note that many others note your many slimy ways to, and it makes me smile.

  125. .

    No specific criticism. In other words, cranky that I don’t follow political Christianity and only partly accept the Q Society’s (and their congeners) claims.

    The vast majority of Australians disagree with you more than I do.

  126. Driftforge

    In terms of belief there is no distinction between the 2 approaches but in response the West can only counter islam within its borders by incremental measures:

    No, the west chooses to respond with incremental measures. At some point, the increments will cease, and the response will be total.

    It would only take one or two incidents — which will keep occurring — and leadership flipping the switch to dealing with the problem rather than tempering it, and the community would lock in behind an action they would normally not accept.

    And there has to be scope for abnormal actions to occur in abnormal circumstances.

    Now the other option is that incidents keep occurring, and the government keeps tempering the situation. That will only persist so long before people start acting on there own because the leadership is failing to act. You just have to look at what is happening in Sweden now — refugee accommodation repeatedly being burnt prior to occupation, physical attacks commencing against refugees — and this in a nation far more compromised than we are.

    Are there paths to other outcomes? Probably. But they aren’t simple, and they aren’t robust.

  127. cohenite

    Now the other option is that incidents keep occurring, and the government keeps tempering the situation. That will only persist so long before people start acting on there own because the leadership is failing to act. You just have to look at what is happening in Sweden now — refugee accommodation repeatedly being burnt prior to occupation, physical attacks commencing against refugees — and this in a nation far more compromised than we are.

    Not just Sweden but all European nations.

    But look at the US. After 9/11 they chased islam outside even though the perps were inside. I hope you are right about leaders eventually reaching the lock and load situation but the US example contradicts your optimism.

    Also, how many poor bastards have to cop it in the meantime? Why the fuck can’t we react on the basis of what has happened elsewhere before it happens here?

  128. srr

    … they chased islam outside even though the perps were inside. …

    “Come, or Kill Where You Are”

    Speaking at a House Homeland Security Committee hearing, FBI Director James Comey says ISIS has used social media … ‘come or kill where you are‘.

    https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=come%20and%20kill%20isis

    Oh, and that’s the very short, least scary version of what Comey had to say.

  129. Fisky

    Fisk and so on cannot accept there is even a trade off and refuse to concede any refugees are genuine

    I know perfectly well what the trade off is. And I have concluded that OSB is the best policy in human history. Never has any government policy been more effective than OSB. We are therefore required to support it, without exception. That there are trade-offs is irrelevant because every action we take is a trade-off and has opportunity costs.

    The real revelation here is that you do not actually support the policy you claim to support (immigration tariffs). You argued against it within the confines of the Bahnisch libertarian debating society. So I think we are entitled to question your real motives, and which policy you actually support (which we suspect to be Merkelian open borders).

  130. jupes

    You guys aren’t helping the ALA at all.

    Yeah we should take advocating lessons from you. The way you are going, you will be able to count LDP voters on one hand by the next election. LOL

    The vast majority of Australians disagree with you more than I do.

    Wow. Dot’s a pollster now. Who knew?

  131. srr

    A post by tomo in comments at Pickering Post –


    ANNE MARIE WATERS 29 Oct 2015

    I was wholeheartedly honoured to attend and speak at the launch of the Australian Liberty Alliance (ALA) in Perth last week. What a fantastic week for a fantastic party. The launch included a keynote speech from Dutch MP Geert Wilders, which ensured the nationwide and international media coverage that the party deserves.

    Australia desperately needs the ALA. These are decent people who want to pass on the Australia they know and love to their children.

    I had thought prior to my arrival that the Aussies are not quite in the fix we Europeans find ourselves, and while this still remains true, Australia is heading, very rapidly, down the same road as the rest of us – political correctness, left-wing bullying and lies, leaders who refuse to listen to those with concerns about Islamic immigration, and a mainstream media entirely complicit and approving of all of the above.

    Some of the coverage of the ALA launch is worth surveying. As is the case here in Europe, mainstream journalism in Australia has decided that the new party is the problem, and not what it wants to oppose. The usual labels of “far-right” are thrown around, and most of the Australian press seems to believe that their country is a shining example of multicultural harmony; despite the overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

    Take this example from the Daily Telegraph in Sydney which claimed that Wilders was in Australia to “water the seeds of discontent”. It then accused him, of course, of being motivated by “hatred”. The writer speculates as to just where Mr Wilders’ “hatred” might have come from.

    His objections to Muslim immigration are a complete mystery it seems. Extraordinarily, and yet typically, there is acknowledgement of the genuine threat that Wilders and the new ALA candidates have to contend with – thereby proving their point about the problems Muslim immigration brings – but the writer still cannot connect the dots and understand that it is the fact that our politicians are threatened that is causing some of them to fight back. The fight is one for our very civilisation.

    This one from the news.com.au website suggests that an “ugly” Australia will emerge if the ALA sees significant success. It quotes one Professor Andrew Markus of Monash University as stating: “There will always be a segment of the community that is not happy with change”.

    But it isn’t change that the ALA opposes, it is sharia law, special privileges for religious bullies, misogyny, gang-rape, intimidation, honour killing, and all the other niceties that mass Muslim immigration brings to Western societies. Even those who accept there is a problem, such as a second professor quoted in the same article, are adamant that the only problem is “radicalisation” and the ever-popular “tiny minority” of extremists.

    Wrong. In Somalia, 90-odd per cent of girls have their genitals butchered by their own families. This is not a tiny minority. In places like Pakistan, people are horrifically murdered (by law) for having an opinion. The law of the land is not the domain of a tiny minority or an extreme radical fringe. Common sense should tell us that when people move from those countries to Australia, they will bring many ghastly practices with them – this is what the ALA was set up to resist. Good, because very few other Aussie “pollies” are up to the task.

    The politicians Down Under sound distinctly like the weak-willed careerists we’ve become so accustomed to in Europe. The Premier of Western Australia (WA), the state in which the launch took place, said that Wilders would not be allowed to use any public buildings during his visit to Perth.

    Therefore, Colin Barnett unilaterally decided that those who support Geert Wilders in Australia, or agree with his right to make his arguments openly and without demonisation, are barred from Western Australia’s publicly owned spaces. Only certain opinions are permitted a public airing in Western Australia. It’s all sounding very familiar.

    The opposition leader in WA added his tuppence worth by complaining about “overseas” politicians causing trouble. I wonder if he’s ever said the same about the “overseas” jihadis who preach violence and rape in his country – one suspects not.

    Politicians from across the floor jostled to the front of condemnation queue, desperate to ensure their PC credentials by vilifying Wilders and the ALA and ensuring that none of the valid points they raise are actually discussed. One politician reminded the ALA that Australia has constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. He must have forgotten to mention that freedom of religion is one of the core reasons that the ALA opposes Islam.

    The reality of the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy that is widespread in the Islamic world also appears to have slipped his mind.

    In short, Australia is a few years behind us, but it is well on its way to full-blown dhimmitude if something doesn’t change fast; enter the Australian Liberty Alliance. Their core policies are a 10 year moratorium on immigration from member countries of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, an end to divisive multiculturalism, the restoration of true freedom of speech, a reduction in bloated and wasteful government, the establishment of common sense and respect in Australian society, and the preservation of this great country for future generations.

    The launch itself was high-spirited and the people were passionate and energetic. The atmosphere was one of hope and determination. The ALA’s candidates are exciting and talented and I have no doubt they will shake Australian politics and change that country’s direction. In the last few years, Australia has witnessed what we all have across the West – terrorist attacks, child marriage, gang- rapes, the sanitisation of sharia by leaders and media, and the growth of a sinister anti-Western sentiment.

    There are problems in schools, problems with corruption, and needless to say, vocal demands from suit-and-tie jihadis to introduce sharia law in family and financial matters for Muslims in Australia. A few years ago, ABC reported that the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils “in a submission to the Federal Parliament’s Committee on Multicultural Affairs… asked for the change [the introduction of sharia family law].”

    Ikebal Patel, the Federation’s president, gave a master-class in double-speak when pushing his sharia agenda. According to the report, Patel agreed that the word sharia conjures up images of a “fierce, unjust, male-dominated legal code”.

    Of course it conjures up those images, because that is precisely what it is.

    Patel assures us that sharia “guarantees women’s rights that are not recognised in mainstream Australian courts”. Can’t argue with that; Australian law allows a woman the same right to divorce as a man, it allows her the right to leave a violent marriage, it allows her the right to be a grown-up if and when she marries, and her testimony has the same value as her husband’s. None of this exists under sharia so in that respect he’s absolutely right.

    Following his organisation’s submission for sharia family law, Patel firmly asserted that “there’s no aspect of sharia that is being tried to be introduced here”, followed by a claim that everyone would benefit if sharia were instituted. Confused? That’s the idea. You’re not supposed to know the truth about the tyranny that these taqiyya merchants are sneaking through the back door, if you did, you may just oppose it….and that would never do.

    I went to the launch of the Australian Liberty Alliance to offer my fullest support to that wonderful group of brave and principled people, but also to ask for their help in the restoration of free speech throughout the West. Following the cartoons, I said I intended to build a global coalition for free speech, and I can think of few better places to start than Australia.

    As I told them on the night of the launch, the ALA will have to take many punches; they’ll be smeared, bullied, harassed, threatened, and vilified by their own leaders and media. They will need to find the inner strength to stand firm on their message, and to get up again when they are knocked down. Having met the candidates, and their fantastic president Debbie Robinson, I don’t think that is going to be a problem.

    Good luck to the Australian Liberty Alliance. They deserve every success that is coming their way.

    Anne Marie Waters is a London Assembly Member candidate for the UK Independence Party

  132. cohenite

    The there is this.

    WHEN Captain Mona Shindy climbed aboard HMAS Canberra to test missiles in the Pacific, a locker had to be converted into a sleeping quarters to accommodate her.

    Never before had an active Australian warship carried women. But aged 23 and launching what would become a 26-year career with the Navy, this was just the first hurdle of a trailblazer.

    Already she had a University degree in the blokey domain of engineering. Weapons engineer. And if this were not unusual enough, Captain Shindy happens to be Muslim, and for most of her career in the navy, has been a mother.

    Being a muslim the good lady would no doubt have considerable experience with bloky domains.

  133. .

    The real revelation here is that you do not actually support the policy you claim to support (immigration tariffs). You argued against it within the confines of the Bahnisch libertarian debating society. So I think we are entitled to question your real motives, and which policy you actually support (which we suspect to be Merkelian open borders).

    That’s a lie. I have been consistent and explained myself at 9:44-46 am yesterday at points 9. and 12.

    9. is wrong and a lie. You’re just being contrary for no reasonable purpose.

    12. is absurd to the point where you’re some bizzare anti libertarian fanatic. What Merkel is doing has nothing to do with anything libertarian at all.

  134. .

    jupes if you think me pissing off four five people on this blog will lead to the destruction of the LDP, ask yourself what advocating the nuking of Mecca will do for the ALA.

  135. .

    I know perfectly well what the trade off is. And I have concluded that OSB is the best policy in human history. Never has any government policy been more effective than OSB. We are therefore required to support it, without exception. That there are trade-offs is irrelevant because every action we take is a trade-off and has opportunity costs.

    Wrong and wrong. You tried telling me before that there was no tradeoff and even Morrison was wrong, all boaties were fraudulent.

    “Trade offs are irrelevant” you stupid mug. You then have the temerity to say “libertarians don’t understand supply and demand”. You can’t be making any serious comments Fisk, you’re just trolling for the fun of it like monty. The trade off is the cost of an action.

    Before we started giving out welfare without exception in the late 1980s, we simply did not have a “boat person problem” (besides the Vietnamese who were genuine, unless you support international communism).

    That was undeniably more effective.

  136. Before we started giving out welfare without exception in the late 1980s, we simply did not have a “boat person problem” (besides the Vietnamese who were genuine, unless you support international communism).

    I think this is naive. They would still come without the welfare. Fuck, half of the UK would come to Australia if they were allowed.

    The issue is that we don’t want muslims here no matter what reason they come for. A large muslim population is a guarantee of violence, friction and loss of liberty.

  137. Harald

    “Extremist” and “fundamentalist” muslims, I have found, are terms that do not work well. These terms cause a focus on the means, not the ends.

    Helpful is to keep track of what are the goals. The goals of islam are establishing the hegemony of islam through implementation of Sharia law.

    “Moderate” devout muslims as well as “extremist” / “fundamentalist” muslims, all support the implementation of Sharia law. (Almost by definition.)

    Viewed this way, the difference between the “extremists” and the “moderates” is simply reduced to the methods that can applied to achieve that goal.

    On the one hand, the extremists think you can use knives, guns and bombs. On the other, the moderates think it can better be done using words and/or by having lots of babies.

    What you see play out here is the discussion between the two camps within the islamic community: How to do it? Dawa or Jihad?

    But make no mistake about this:
    Sharia law is where the problem is. That is where the inequality of women is coded into law, the treatment of gays, non-muslims, where it is stated under which conditions it is permitted to lie, or even obligatory, that non-muslims do not have access to the courts, etc..

    Personally I abhor knives, guns and bombs as methods, but only fools would call moderate devout muslims “our allies in the fight against terrorism”. If you really think that, you have absolutely no idea.

    Interesting in this regards:
    In the Sharia law handbook “Reliance of the Traveler”, I found this gem in the section “Commanding the right and forbidding the wrong (book Q)”:

    “commanding the right and forbidding the wrong are a communal rather than a personal obligation, for He says, “Let there be a group of you who call to good… (quran 3:104)” and not “All of you command the right..”. So if enough people do it, the responsibility is lifted from the rest, those who perform it being expressly mentioned as the successful.”

    That is a good one to keep in mind the next time anyone claims: “… but it is only a tiny minority…”.

    Yep, but that tiny minority is the vanguard. Because they acted, others do not have to – according to Sharia law. So the fact that the rest is not doing this, absolutely does not mean they disagree. It may very well mean some, or many, quietly support it and are thankful to the perps for taking the responsibility to act, so they themselves don’t have to.

  138. classical_hero

    I have never understood why People complain about the Old Testament. Basically what the Israelites did was what happened to the Nazis of Germany. We basically exterminated the Nazis so that they could no longer do what they, just like how the peoples constanly attack Israel were exterminated so they could no longer cause problems.

  139. Fisky

    “Trade offs are irrelevant” you stupid mug. You then have the temerity to say “libertarians don’t understand supply and demand”. You can’t be making any serious comments Fisk, you’re just trolling for the fun of it like monty. The trade off is the cost of an action

    The problem is this – the part of the libertarian movement that is for open borders does not believe that their policies carry any particular costs or risks. They actually think that their rather bizarre policies will get implemented over the objections of 99.9% of society and somehow survive a change of government.

    What’s really happened is: open borders has been tested to destruction, first by Rudd-Gillard and now by Merkel. The IPA have gotten everything they ever asked for in Europe. And it’s rather telling that they are not now giving full-throated support to Merkel, because they realise that their position is a disaster, but they also can’t renounce it without affecting their very identity.

    Before we started giving out welfare without exception in the late 1980s, we simply did not have a “boat person problem” (besides the Vietnamese who were genuine, unless you support international communism).

    Actually, Australia’s welfare policies did not become more permissive in the late 80s. What did happen is more and more people figured out how to get into Western countries illegally, knowing that sooner or later it will lead them to get their hands on Free Stuff – particularly free food and accommodation. And as governments don’t want to preside over people starving/freezing to death in the streets, they tend to oblige.

  140. Fisky

    That’s a lie. I have been consistent and explained myself at 9:44-46 am yesterday at points 9. and 12.

    It’s not a lie at all. You did oppose the immigration tariff when it was first raised within libertarian debating circles, stating that your preference was for open borders. The links provided show this to be the case.

  141. .

    Myess indeed. You’re lying Fisk.

  142. Fisky

    Actually, I’m not lying at all. The problem is that you refuse to give an honest account of your real position (whatever that is).

  143. nilk

    A large muslim population is a guarantee of violence, friction and loss of liberty.

    Oops. Too late.

  144. wreckage

    Maybe I am naiive, but I don’t see how radically open borders can be a part of any liberal movement, Classical, Libertarian, or otherwise. If it’s a philosophical girder of the LDP I’ll have to regretfully end my membership.

    You can’t maintain freedom without borders, any more than you can maintain a secure household without walls. In this respect, security and freedom are not trade-offs, they are integral.

    I’d like more immigration, and more movement, more freedom for guest workers, students and tourists. But you can’t practically make that happen, nor can you gain the trust of the public to permit you to make it happen, if you radically devalue and compromise security, or the territorial right of the Australian people.

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