Trump v Clinton head to head

So far as any reports I have seen, Trump has not replied to Obama in spite of the opening Obama provided by criticising Trump. I find that inexplicable, but I am not going to go around telling him how to run a campaign, since he seems quite capable of doing things on his own. Where Trump did go head to head is here: Presidential Front-Runners Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton Face Off. And the issue is this:

The crossfire between the two leading presidential candidates intensified Monday, as Democrat Hillary Clinton’s campaign stood by her claim that Republican front-runner Donald Trump’s rhetoric is being used as propaganda by terrorist groups, though there is no evidence Islamic State has put him in videos.

Mrs. Clinton said in Saturday’s Democratic debate that Mr. Trump “is becoming ISIS’s best recruiter,” and that he was being used in videos. Mr. Trump angrily denied the former secretary of state’s charge and demanded an apology from her. The Clinton campaign refused to provide one, pointing to comments from several counterterrorism experts and social media posts by terror groups to support the claims.

That she didn’t have evidence for what she said is the way of the world, not that the American media will ever mention it. But Gateway Pundit has a posting on Somebody Tell Hillary… ISIS Recruitment Video Featured Bill Clinton the “Fornicator” (VIDEO). It also shows John Kerry and Obama himself. The video has quite some production values, and is interesting as an artefact of our own times. It obviously will only repel, and I hope frighten the likes of us. So on the narrow issue of who can be used as part of an ISIL recruitment drive, Hillary is lying again. But the wider and more important issue is that only you and I will even know of such videos that expose Hillary as dangerously and badly informed. This is part of the sickening nature of the modern political process, where to find out the kinds of things you might wish everyone to know requires you to move beyond mainstream sources of news and make the effort yourself to see what’s going on, assuming it is now even possible to find out what is going on.

And as an afterthought, there is this to consider as well: Obama, Clinton may be setting up Trump to win Republican nomination because they think he would be the easiest one among the Republicans to beat.

President Obama and Hillary Clinton have intensified attacks on Republican presidential front-runner Donald Trump, accusing him of manipulating voters’ “fear and ignorance” and using anti-Muslim rhetoric that helps recruit Islamic State terrorists — jabs that appear to be energizing his supporters and strengthening his campaign.

But campaign strategists say the attacks are not aimed at knocking down Mr. Trump. Instead, the smears are part of a calculated ploy by Democrats who want to help him win because they are convinced the billionaire businessman will lose in the general election.

That Hillary might be president makes you wonder how this is even possible in a country of 300-million-plus people: Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush – a gap here for Obama and then – Clinton?

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101 Responses to Trump v Clinton head to head

  1. C.L.

    Trump, schrump.

    The Democrats will go down in history as the party that armed Iran with nuclear weapons to exterminate the Jews and terrorise the Middle East. Just they went down in history as the party that deliberately sabotaged Nixon’s victory over North Vietnam, causing the deaths of millions.

    In addition to these facts, Clinton’s husband was responsible for the rise of Al Qaeda and 9/11.

  2. BorisG

    That Hillary might be president makes you wonder how this is even possible in a country of 300-million-plus people: Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush – a gap here for Obama and then – Clinton?

    Or Bush?

    This is the question my leftist friends also ask (those leftists for whom there is little difference between Clinton and Bush: all are American imperialists).

  3. BorisG

    That she didn’t have evidence for what she said is the way of the world, not that the American media will ever mention it.

    It is all over American media. Just type into google: no ISIS videos with trump found and see many results including ABC, CNN etc.

  4. Pusnip

    I find it inexplicable…

    like many things, Steve.

  5. Pusnip

    Kates: not that the American media will ever mention it

    As Boris G. said, its all over the American media, including CNN, ABC, CBS and NBC as elk as Fox. Crazy’s meme about the mainstream media never reporting things detrimental to the conservative side of politics is exposed again for the falsehood it is. Thanks Boris.

  6. Craig

    why America wants to vote in another geriatric to the top post is beyond me.

  7. entropy

    The USA is a republic in name only. The Eoli run things and have their own royal families. The American refinement is to have themselves two royal families.

  8. Alfonso

    The US left is in a bit of a panic. Their greatest success has been censoring language and thus ideas. They know that any other candidate using Trump’s language would have been drummed out of the campaign by the MSM long ago. Trump the “schlong” wielder just gets louder cheers. There is nothing the comrades can say about Trump that will surprise anyone. The Alinsky method is failing, that’s not supposed to happen.

  9. jupes

    Even if Trump was in IS recruiting videos, so fucking what!

  10. stackja

    USA MSM covered up for Democrats in the past.
    USA MSM only interested in Leftist agenda and Democrats deliver.

  11. Aussiepundit

    why America wants to vote in another geriatric to the top post is beyond me.

    Clinton is a whole year younger than Trump.
    (68 and 69 respectively).

  12. herodotus

    That young Obama chap has gone so well!

  13. entropy

    I am sure ISIS will get around to including Trump in their videos eventually, just like the current US leadership already is. Why not? Especially if he became a candidate for President. Why is it that the left doesn’t understand that ISIS and fellow islamic fundies hate us all?

    In an equal opportunity way of course.

  14. Ant

    Or Bush?

    Jeb! is done and dusted. The RNC/DC nexus has shifted focus to Rubio as their ‘Great Hope’ in keeping the gravy train on the rails, keeping in mind that their gravy train will keep chugging along with either a RINO or a Democrat as POTUS but less so with a principled conservative.

    And their main target isn’t Trump, who appears unassailable for now, but Cruz.

    Cruz is shaping up as Trump’s main opponent. Take Cruz out and the theory is that it will eventually get to a two horse race between Trump and Rubio from where Trump can be mercilessly character destroyed through millions of dollars in media commercials and letter drops.

    I think, as far as strategy goes, it’s quite brilliant. Thoroughly unprincipled, and at the core of why the USA will continue its rapid decline, but probably the only strategy that has any hope of succeeding.

    The only problem is that it appears that the GOP’s attack on Cruz is going nowhere. The conservative base has taken far too many hits over the GWB and Obama years and they are, I think, now motivated enough to get off their backsides to get the voter turnout moving in their favour.

  15. Tel

    The American refinement is to have themselves two royal families.

    Worked for the Spartans.

  16. Tel

    There is nothing the comrades can say about Trump that will surprise anyone. The Alinsky method is failing, that’s not supposed to happen.

    Trump’s kind of using it back on them… Alinsky made rules for radicals; ideas that just don’t work for any establishment (not even a lefty establishment). Who is the most radical candidate in US politics right now?

  17. Trump is not going to let them drag him into the PC semantic bullshit mire of seeming not doing lying crap tgey have created ,obummer is desparate hus legacy of a weaker PC decromatic USA is in dangerfrom this Truthist who ignores the political Aparat and its media branch ,and no doubt would upset tge UN.cimmunists and tgeir islamofascist allies ,he jad planned on being a muslim Hero ,Ah Well!

  18. jupes

    This concern about appearing in IS recruiting videos wreaks of appeasement.

    It is exactly what Duncan Lewis is telling us: If you upset Muslims they become terrorists. Duncan is right about that but he is wrong in how we should respond. Take the 12,000 Syrian refugees Australia has stupidly committed to. If we only took Christians, the Muslims here would get upset. So guess what, we are bringing more Muslims here.

    Appeasing them will never work, because only Sharia will do that. Muslims living here are a danger to the rest of us. While we are dealing with that threat, we certainly don’t need to increase their numbers.

    The Donald’s solution will help to keep Americans safe. Lewis’ will put us in greater danger.

  19. Old School Conservative

    Appeasing them will never work, because only Sharia will do that

    Happening already, according to The Australian:

    Muslim communities in Australia have been quietly practising sharia law in negotiating divorces, disadvantaging women in custody and property arrangements.
    The Muslim communities then have been turning to the Family Court to authorise the heavily weighted “agreements’’, which often provide “guardianship” of school-aged children to men and incorporate the return of any marriage dowry as well as other financial compensation from the women.
    A former adviser to the ­Lakemba mosque in Sydney’s west, solicitor Hasaim Farache, is one of several Muslims being trained by Legal Aid to facilitate culturally specific consent orders for the Family Court.
    Mr Farache admitted to applying sharia principles to his arbitrations. He said sharia had been playing out since the mediation aspect of the Family Court was introduced in 2005 and claimed the application of sharia at the mediation level avoided expensive litigation.

    So Legal Aid is paying Muslims to implement at least one aspect of Sharia Law in Australia. We are being whitened from within – at taxpayers expense!

  20. Mique

    Spot on, Jupes. However, whether Lewis was right about that or not, he did the wrong thing doing Turnbull’s dirty work for him. Just shows the lengths Turnbull will go. I wish someone would give me Manning’s biography for Christmas.

  21. Rabz

    implement at least one aspect of Sharia Law in Australia

    And it’s being implemented in that inexcusable abomination, the family kangaroo court, no less.

  22. Rabz

    Why would Trump bother responding to obama anyway? Ignoring the puffed up little ponce is entirely the correct response.

  23. Toiling Mass

    What is the Hidebeest’s point? That America is safe if ISIS is not putting particular people in videos?

    It is like The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal

    So profoundly unintelligent that, if you can’t see it, it assumes it can’t see you.

    If Trump was in an ISIS video, does anyone believe it would be other to declare what a threat he is to them?

    And would anyone believe the inclusion of Democrats would be other than to show contempt?

  24. John Comnenus

    Trump will be a better President than any of the Democrat contenders or the current insufferable and incompetent incumbent. However I am not sure anymore that Trump will win the Republican nomination. Cruz is coming (disclosure I want Cruz to win). He leads Trump in Iowa and is catching him nationally and in New Hamps and Sth Carolina.

    Cruz has the best favour ability ratings with Republicans and is ahead with independents according latest Quinipac poll. However, he is loathed by Democrats which demonstrates why he will be a good prospect for President. Mind you this was my logic for Abbott and he was a fiscal failure of catastrophic proportions.

    I am hoping that Cruz continues to improve as Republicans get engaged closer to the primaries. Cruz will improve as Huckabee, Santorum, Paul and Carson inevitably drop out.

    However, quite frankly, I am hoping for and will be happy with a win by any of Republicans.

  25. cohenite

    Sharia being used in divorces; FMD, this is old news.

  26. John Comnenus

    I like the t shirt some woman at the Grand Rapids Michigan Trump rally was wearing.

    It proudly proclaimed HILLARY FOR PRISONER 2016.

  27. I watched the whole Donald Trump’s full speech at rally in Grand Rapids, MI. Trump’s success I think is that he has a few simple messages, in between a lot of padding and showbiz. It is these simple messages that resonate with the crowd. He speaks with sincerity and a true of love the Unites States, something shrillary and obama just can’t bring themselves to do.

  28. Turtle of WA

    However, he is loathed by Democrats which demonstrates why he will be a good prospect for President.

    Good point about Cruz and Abbott. Abbott shied away from putting his climate sceptic cards on the table. Cruz does it openly, and openly campaigns against gerbil warming insanity. He will face a leftist MSM many times worse than Abbott.

  29. Chris M

    I am hoping that Cruz continues to improve

    The most delicious irony is that Democrats are now realising they would do better with a President Trump than with President Cruz who is a ah… tad more inflexible on conservative issues.

    Democrats for Trump!

  30. .

    Trump is a RINO who wants a wealth confiscation tax. Democrats will vote for it in droves.

  31. jupes

    Trump is a RINO who wants a wealth confiscation tax.

    Trump will stop importing Muslims and Mexicans.

    That alone is reason to elect him.

  32. If Trump is elected it might start a movement to abolish career politics ,and instiuteRuke By Referenda in other words true democracy . The word True is anarhema to the career pollie lawyers and union gangsters . When they are removed we can start on tge other big time bludgers academics and tge law trade many billions can be saved ,oay off the debt they created . Sort out the education and welfare systems and the meeja and it would be Paradise ( without the alla bloke ) .

  33. .

    Why not more Mexicans?

    Mexico is vastly now more capitalist than America.

    Just look at their debt to GDP, government spending to GDP and so on. The only thing holding them back apart from corruption is government ownership of PEMEX, which is a large driver for said corruption.

    The real Democrat voteherd are white, many generation settled middle class and largely unionised government workers and their college educated children. How many latino immigrants were at OWS?

    If you want to end the political-economic cycle you would attack coercive schooling, “education” unions and public spending.

  34. .

    Fred

    I like sortition but I’m not sure you can make it get up as a policy is very large democracy.

  35. Tel

    Trump is a RINO who wants a wealth confiscation tax. Democrats will vote for it in droves.

    So who is the low tax candidate? That would have to be the low spending candidate.

  36. Craig

    Aussiepundit,

    That’s precisely my point, Trump or Clinton, why elect either?

  37. And it’s being implemented in that inexcusable abomination, the family kangaroo court, no less.

    Hang on, it’s unconstitutional, isn’t Rabz?

    Section 116 says:

    The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.[1]

  38. outsider

    The ISIS thing is the latest sideshow. Anyone watch the lame Democrat debate? The genuine geriatric plus HRC and some Irish named guy got 6.7m against the Trump show at 18m.

    I doubt Trump will get there, the GOP will find some way to be themselves again and rescue defeat from the jaws of victory. I doubt Cruz will get there either, since Trump has phenomenal support loyalty for good reason, and will very likely fancy his chances at going it alone .. he is far smarter than Perot and the most media savvy candidate ever. He’s spent $212,000 thus far but budgeted for $35m by xmas – that is a lot of late campaign publicity in reserve.

    The best outcome for the Repub-Estab is a Trump-Cruz ticket. Presently Cruz is hard to pin in terms of support, since he is yes too-ing Trump all over the policy gamut. He kind of hovers there, in terms of what it means to be second, much easier than first.

    I feel that if Trump misses by super Tuesday (just two months away) and leaves the race for good, the hangover will badly affect the base, so much so they will do a sub-Romney level turnout for whomever is left as last man standing, come November. So whichever way you see it, Trump strides the scene as the colossus, the guy who destroyed politics, showed there is another way, changed the game.

    He is well-prepared for a solo bid, having run hard on the evils of the super PACs of all the governors/senators, the crap voting record of GOPers, Boehner/Ryan, the establishment in a general sense, he is busy attacking the edifice of ineptitude, corruption – as well as their record of ‘running’ the economy, security, Obamacare and ME foreign policy.

    Plenty there for 60-90min speeches, punctuated by jokes. He treats his crowds as co-campaigners, tells them he answers to them only, and stuff like Obama’s 250 rounds of golf, gassy old 747 flights, etc. With Hillary in the top job, people will long for Obama. They will be utterly finished in a few short years. What’s it going to be, punk?

  39. Makka

    “Why not more Mexicans?”

    Open borders boy, again. Allow your country to be overrun, more GDP!!

  40. John Comnenus

    Cruz and Paul are the low tax candidates.

  41. Makka

    Aussiepundit
    #1895292, posted on December 23, 2015 at 8:10 am

    WB Aussie. Care to defend your pinup boy?

  42. outsider

    Above all, Trump cannot be classified as RINO, CINO, LINO or any-O you care to nominate. These things don’t matter to Joe average. That is precisely his appeal, he is the strange attractor of politics, no surprise when you look across the landscape anywhere in the developed world these days.

  43. Ant

    The RINO Establishment would prefer Hillary to Trump, and Trump to Cruz.

    Cruz has the target on his back and they will do ‘whatever it takes’ to take him out.

    I’m reminded of the Mississippi Primary for the federal senate in 2014 which came down to the ‘one foot in the grave geriatric,’ 78yo Thad Cochran, in Congress for nearly 40 years, against the talented and younger Tea Party conservative Chris McDaniel.

    The RINOs won – just – by campaigning in African American strongholds and instilling fears that McDaniel was going to cut the welfare spigot. In the end they got their bobbing head autobot in The Honorable Senator Cochran back where they wanted him for another 6 years.

    Result: The USD$ trillion spending bill just passed got the nod from Cochran. The gravy train continues for the Government Class, and those wedded to it.

    Bottom line is this: The power and the privileges these types of cockroach lavish on themselves by exploiting productive US taxpayers is essenitally not threatened by the Democrats or the RINOs.

    They get to slop around in the spoils no matter which is running the joint.

    However, a principled conservative who openly refuses to toe their line is a clear and present danger to all of it and must be destroyed.

    It’s going to be a rough 11 months for Ted Cruz if he goes through to November and wins while in office he’ll be like the Bismark on the north Atlantic assailed from all directions and by any available means for the entirety of his presidency.

  44. Alfonso

    The US middle class and blue collars will swap higher taxes on the downtrodden hedge fund operatives income for building a wall and potentially otherwise ceasing 3rd world immigration altogether. No contest. Trump gets it, the Liberts don’t.

  45. .

    Makka
    #1895438, posted on December 23, 2015 at 11:52 am
    “Why not more Mexicans?”

    Open borders boy, again. Allow your country to be overrun, more GDP!!

    ???

    America could close the borders and they would still get Mexican immigration. How are latinos “overrunning” America? Do Americans have to be white? What part of Western culture do Catholic Mexicans NOT have in common with their socialist white compatriots in the US?

    You want lower GDP? Mexican immigration is undoubtedly good. It is NOTHING like what is happening in Europe right now.

    Basically Makka you believe in racial purity and closed borders for no good reason.

  46. .

    John Comnenus
    #1895439, posted on December 23, 2015 at 11:53 am
    Cruz and Paul are the low tax candidates.

    Exactly.

    Ant
    #1895444, posted on December 23, 2015 at 12:01 pm
    The RINO Establishment would prefer Hillary to Trump, and Trump to Cruz.

    Exactly. Luskin explained this all in “The Conspiracy to Keep You Stupid – Big Business, Gig Academia and Big Government…etc”

    Alfonso
    #1895447, posted on December 23, 2015 at 12:03 pm
    The US middle class and blue collars will swap higher taxes on the downtrodden hedge fund operatives income for building a wall and potentially otherwise ceasing 3rd world immigration altogether. No contest. Trump gets it, the Liberts don’t.

    Latino migrants are blue collar. Whites make up the managerial class and public service schleps that want higher taxes, Obamacare and other nonsense.

    Mexico is nearly first world Alfonso – you look silly. Mexico is also much more capitalist than the US. That’s why they are catching up after all.

  47. Tel

    America could close the borders and they would still get Mexican immigration.

    Quite so, and those who come by legal means would also be subject to:
    * screening, selecting the best, the brightest, and the law abiding;
    * documentation, so they cannot slip in and out without a trace;
    * rule of law, including labour laws, tax payments, etc.

    That makes for a significantly different environment, as compared with large volumes of people working off the books, below minimum wage, without documentation, without insurance, and so on.

    And for the record, no I do not support raising the minimum wage and all that stuff, I would actually support lowering it and reducing labour law regulation on business… but this must be done across the board. The law must apply to all parties, not just the suckers.

  48. Ross B

    Bloomberg reporting a study suggesting typical phone polls may underestimate the real support for Trump.

    Polls may be underestimating Donald Trump’s support, according to intriguing new research that says the Republican front-runner benefits from a “social desirability bias”—some people who plan to vote for him are too embarrassed to admit it.

    How many polls would Abbott have had the same bias reflected? How many polls would overestimate Turnbull’s polling-day-locked-in support..?

  49. Alfonso

    Like I said, the Liberts don’t get it, it’s one reason they’re doomed here and in the US.
    Canning….shudder.

  50. Tel

    Cruz and Paul are the low tax candidates.

    I would not be in the least bit upset to see either of those guys win, but in the case of Rand Paul, yes he has a strong message of liberty (giver or take, he isn’t perfect) but no he has no chance of winning. Only a small fraction of Americans want liberty.

    In the case of Cruz, he’s a smart guy, he could be influential running as a VP candidate with Trump. On his own, I don’t believe he can make it. I also don’t see Cruz as a real libertarian, but maybe he would be a step in the right direction. They could do a lot worse, put it that way.

  51. .

    Alfonso – Trump is a socialist. You’re cheering for mass support of socialism.

    Cruz and Paul are acceptable to the base.

    Trump supported a confiscatory wealth tax like Buffet, and he never recanted.

    You don’t get it.

  52. Californian Trump supporter William Celli, who would follow Trump “to the end of the world”, arrested for making bombs and threatening attacks on Muslims, after a string of pro-Trump social media posts.

    So I guess Clinton might have been wrong about Trump. He actually encourages hate crimes by white men against Muslims.

  53. Makka

    dot,

    You don’t need to keep confirming your love of open borders. It’s well known.

    40+ million people on food stamps in the US and you think an open border with Mexico is a great thing.

    I believe in controlled borders. Regulated. If a nation wants to control it’s destiny it must have control over who enters. You on the other hand are quite happy to see murderers, rapists, drug runners and other violent crims full access to to the US through a porous border with Mexico. You are happy to see the same here and in Europe. All those moderate muslim and Latinos.

    Keep flogging your great philosophy. You’re on a winner!

  54. .

    40+ million people on food stamps in the US and you think an open border with Mexico is a great thing.

    What has this got to do with Mexican immigration, legal or not?

    Nothing.

    Illegal migrants pay taxes and get no benefits and can’t vote. What is it exactly you are worried about?

    More immigration would boost GDP. It would enable a lot on food stamps to get off them. It could be made legal very easily. ID checks don’t require more border control. You could cut off welfare to non citizens.

    You don’t want this, because you don’t like immigrants. You don’t believe in immigration at all.

    You actually believe Mexican immigration is the same as the European crisis right now, hence your mind blowingly stupid idea that the notion of US incomes rising because of immigration will backfire as it may in Europe.

    If a nation wants to control it’s destiny it must have control over who enters.

    It doesn’t need to control that. It just needs to be able to do so. Why are you so concerned about the sovereignty of America, as an Australian citizen? Americans are not concerned. “The Wall” will never be built.

    You on the other hand are quite happy to see murderers, rapists, drug runners and other violent crims full access to to the US through a porous border with Mexico.

    Besides the drug war being a stupid American invention that punishes Mexicans in a sickening and imperialistic way…you now play the rape card. The US has had a porous border since at least NAFTA.

    Please tell us who in the US is in the clink for rape, and why you don’t propose to deport them.

    Now the gang card. Yeah right now white/naturalised Americans have ever formed street or prison gangs and they don’t trade with the Mexican or other latin American gangs.

    You blithering idiot. You probably support Trump’s feeble minded idea of “making Mexico pay for the wall”.

    He’s taking the piss. There is no way that is going to happen. If he wants to be President he isn’t interested in implementing any policy, except for his closely held left wing beliefs he published back in 2000.

  55. Tel

    It’s going to be a rough 11 months for Ted Cruz if he goes through to November and wins while in office he’ll be like the Bismark on the north Atlantic assailed from all directions and by any available means for the entirety of his presidency.

    If Trump and Cruz shook hands and made a team, then together they would be formidable. It’s moderately likely to happen, and let’s not forget that the USA has (to some extent) started on the path of recovery. They did start their “sequester” regardless of the hand wringing from Paul Krugman. Say what you like about Yellen but she was able to taper off QE, and Yellen did ultimately raise rates (OK, only a tiny bit, and only after repeated delays, but she did it).

    Schiff says that QE4 is certainly going to happen sooner or later, I kind of disagree with him on that, Yellen seems to be trying hard to avoid that.

  56. .

    Schiff has been right nearly all of the time and especially in these last 18 months (as well as predicting the GFC near perfectly) but I think even Yellen understands that seven years of QE is simply a bullshit policy.

    You don’t want to end up like Japan.

    QE III started in 2012 and was open ended – and increased after the taper.

    More correctly QE IV already happened and now QE V was a reasonable presumption but probably won’t happen as even a lifelong gambler can see a shell game is not a good deal.

  57. Anne

    For the record:

    Trump/Cruz or Cruz/Gowdy

    (Trump wouldn’t do VP)

  58. Tel

    … even Yellen understands that seven years of QE is simply a bullshit policy.

    That’s a big breakthrough for the present day “Keynesian Stimulus” mentality.

    Look at Europe… Draghi has done his level best to decimate the Euro. He loves bullshit policy.

  59. John Comnenus

    Dot,

    You are wrong re
    Illegals. Firstly they don’t pay income tax meaning that they price legal immigrants and natural citizens out of the market. Secondly they receive massive handouts including health and universal Education for their children. Things Americans either struggle to afford or can’t afford are provided free to people who take their jobs because they pay no tax. And then there is all the crime. Can you not understand why middle America is furious about this?

    This is costing American tax payers huge amounts of money. It is also the reason Trump can get Mexico to pay for the wall and get illegals to self deport. If they don’t he will just introduce full screening of all remittances to ensure taxes were paid before being released and levying taxes where necessary. I think that would convince Mexico to pay and non criminal illegals to self deport and apply to come back as residents. There is no reason they should get citizenship.

  60. .

    No. You are wrong.

    This is a balanced piece on the issue from an obviously right wing web news outlet:

    http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/illegal-immigrants-taxes-IRS/2015/08/24/id/671646/

    3. Payments from illegal immigrants are helping keep Social Security alive. Unauthorized immigrants have paid $100 billion into the fund over the past decade with no intention of ever collecting benefits, CNN reported, adding: “Without immigrants, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects that the system will no longer be able to pay the full promised benefits by 2037.”

    If fraud is an issue, simply enforce laws against fraud. Cut off non citizens and welfare cleans itself up and any motivation to get into America goes away for most poor quality migrants.

    The idea that they price people out of the market assumes they’re willing to work for significantly less than what similarly skilled people would get in America. This is nonsense. They would demand higher wages.

    …and you are only talking about nominal wages. Real wages depend upon what price a society can produce goods at.

  61. jupes

    How are latinos “overrunning” America?

    By streaming over the border you idiot.

    Do Americans have to be white?

    No but they need to maintain their culture to be the beacon of liberty that have been for the last century or so. If enough people of an inferior culture – like Mexicans – arrive in America then the traditional culture is gone forever. America will become just another third world shit-hole.

    What part of Western culture do Catholic Mexicans NOT have in common with their socialist white compatriots in the US?

    Socialist? WTF?

    Child marriage. Murder. Rape.

  62. .

    So they’re overrunning America by turning up? America must have an utterly incompetent ICE/DHS and CIA/Defence service.

    Do Americans have to be white?

    No but they need to maintain their culture to be the beacon of liberty that have been for the last century or so. If enough people of an inferior culture – like Mexicans – arrive in America then the traditional culture is gone forever. America will become just another third world shit-hole.

    The uninformed white supremacist pops his head up.

    Mexican culture is inferior! It isn’t white! Mexico is more capitalist than America.

    So unformed that he assumes that white Americans are capitalists who stayed at home or voted for Obama and assumes that Mexicans generally are rapists, murderers and child molesters.

    You’re busted pal.

  63. .

    Shorter jupes: only superior white people can be free.

  64. jupes

    Dot you are as loony as Sarah Hansen Young on immigration.

    Do you have the same evil eyes as her by any chance? You and Sarah should go on a road show together.

    Be a big hit at Bahnisch bbqs.

  65. Tel

    If fraud is an issue, simply enforce laws against fraud.

    Simply enforce laws regarding border crossing and entry visas.

  66. .

    jupes
    #1895606, posted on December 23, 2015 at 2:12 pm
    Dot you are as loony as Sarah Hansen Young on immigration.

    Do you have the same evil eyes as her by any chance? You and Sarah should go on a road show together.

    Be a big hit at Bahnisch bbqs.

    Tell me more about superior white people.

  67. jupes

    Shorter jupes: only superior white people can be free.

    Stop being an idiot Dot and post a list of countries more free than those developed by white Europeans? Particularly the Anglo ones.

    Qatar perhaps? How about Mexico?

  68. .

    No, you said America needs to remain white to remain free.

  69. jupes

    Tell me more about superior white people.

    Shorter Dot. “Waaaaahhhhhh RACIST!”

    Wow. You have been learning stuff at those bbqs haven’t you.

  70. .

    You said America needs to remain white to remain free.

  71. Fisky

    Illegal migrants pay taxes and get no benefits and can’t vote. What is it exactly you are worried about?

    Actually, this is completely wrong. Illegal immigrants get full public hospital treatment and have a court-affirmed right to attend school. They probably get other benefits as well.

  72. jupes

    America must have an utterly incompetent ICE/DHS and CIA/Defence service. border control.

    True.

    Mexican culture is inferior!

    True

    It isn’t white!

    Why are you obsessed with race Dot? What is it about the Left and race?

    So unformed that he assumes that white Americans are capitalists who stayed at home or voted for Obama

    What the fuck are you on about?

    … and assumes that Mexicans generally are rapists, murderers and child molesters.

    Why do you need to lie Dot?

  73. Fisky

    California Proposition 187 (also known as the Save Our State (SOS) initiative) was a 1994 ballot initiative to establish a state-run citizenship screening system and prohibit illegal aliens from using non-emergency health care, public education, and other services in the State of California. Voters passed the proposed law as a referendum in November 1994. The law was challenged in a legal suit and found unconstitutional by a federal district court. In 1999, Governor Gray Davis halted state appeals of this ruling.

    So California upheld the libertarian policy of open borders with a welfare state to the cheers of many a BBQ around the nation.

  74. BorisG

    If you upset Muslims they become terrorists. Duncan is right about that but he is wrong in how we should respond.

    if he is right about that then maybe it is not a great idea to make them terrorists.

    This appeasement meme is incredibly stupid. Most of Australian Muslims do not pose a threat to us and we should do our best to bring them to our side. We should speak out against Islamism and particularly violence but branding all Muslims as terrorists is incredibly counter-productive.

    http://www.danielpipes.org/16331/trump-ban-islamists-not-muslims

  75. .

    Catallaxy is now a white supremacist site. It’s time is nearly over.

  76. Fisky

    No but they need to maintain their culture to be the beacon of liberty that have been for the last century or so. If enough people of an inferior culture – like Mexicans – arrive in America then the traditional culture is gone forever. America will become just another third world shit-hole.

    The funny thing is Mexican net migration actually tipped negative a few years ago. The real illegal surge is from places south of Mexico which are even more dysfunctional, people who the tolerant Mexicans either throw in jail because illegal immigrant is a crime there, or wave them north.

    It’s certainly not ideal and the fiscal impact on the US is undoubtedly negative, but it’s much better than Europe which is a civilisational catastrophe in the making. Obama seems to have a case of invasion envy towards the Europeans (as does Turnbull) so he’s doing his very best to bring 100,000s of unvetted Syrians to America.

  77. jupes

    This appeasement meme is incredibly stupid.

    As opposed to, say, inviting more Muslims to live here?

    Most of Australian Muslims do not pose a threat to us

    They do pose a threat to us. Muslim terrorists have the same beliefs, live among and are shielded by so called ‘moderate’ Muslims, who in turn, benefit from the actions of the terrorists.

    … and we should do our best to bring them to our side.

    We shouldn’t have to do anything to ‘bring them to our side’. By living here they enjoy the benefits of our country and should automatically be on ‘our side’.

    We should speak out against Islamism and particularly violence

    There is a link between Islam and Islamic violence. The hint is in the name. We should be free to point this out.

    but branding all Muslims as terrorists is incredibly counter-productive.

    No one has done this.

  78. Fisky

    You want lower GDP? Mexican immigration is undoubtedly good. It is NOTHING like what is happening in Europe right now.

    Huh? I don’t get it? You support the invasion of Europe and believe it is wonderful for GDP. Why are we now implying it’s a bad thing?

  79. Tel

    Illegal migrants pay taxes and get no benefits and can’t vote. What is it exactly you are worried about?

    Actually, this is completely wrong. Illegal immigrants get full public hospital treatment and have a court-affirmed right to attend school. They probably get other benefits as well.

    There’s some research at CIS if anyone wants to tool up with facts.

    http://cis.org/Immigration-Policy-Fact-Sheets

    First point: most illegal immigration from Central America into the USA is *NOT* from Mexico, the people are coming from Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador. I might point out that Honduras is the #1 murder capital of the world… it’s understandable why people might want to live somewhere better, it’s also understandable why places with lower murder rates might want some screening process.

    Second point: use of welfare is significantly higher than the native born, which is totally logical given lower education and more menial skill sets. Poverty is also higher (very likely same reasons).

    Third: check out the stats on Immigration and Customs Enforcement and Homeland Security, both of which have been slackening their efforts. Big Government is not fulfilling it’s duty to uphold the law… in which case, you wonder why anyone else should uphold the law.

  80. jupes

    Dot:

    The uninformed white supremacist pops his head up.

    SHY: (winks)

    Dot:

    Catallaxy is now a white supremacist site. It’s time is nearly over.

    SHY: (blows kisses to Dot) Ooh Dot, tell us more about open borders.

    Bahnish: Tofu’s ready everyone!

  81. .

    Fisk you little prick. You once even tried to call Merkel’s subsidisation of the Syrian or otherwise migrants as “libertarian”.

  82. Fisky

    Bahnish: Tofu’s ready everyone!

    Lefty Kim: Potato salad for everyone who knows the magic words!
    (Libertarians in chorus): We LOVE open borders!
    (Kim to Mark): Aren’t they just adorable!

  83. JC

    Jupes

    Stop the eggnoggery. Cross border migration in the US has been occurring since before the Republic. There are Mexican families in the US with four hundred years of family history in the western states. Their statue is as high as the WASPs in these places.

    The southern border was closed down by the socialist FDR in order to mollify the unions. Prior to that it was an open border and everyone was pretty kosher. People worked in the US and went home to Mexico in the evening.

    By all means, put a lock on the door to stop muzzo immigration, but everyone else is fine.

  84. .

    jupes you can try to be clever as you like, and say I’m obsessed with race, but you have put forward a race based immigration policy (whites only), and based such a ridiculous idea on your implicated message that only white people can handle freedom, and that culture cannot be learned by non whites, nor can they appreciate liberty.

    It does not require the advocation of cultural equality to oppose your white supremacist idea.

  85. JC

    I’d be willing to bet that if there was an open border with Mexico, you would have less Mexicans living in the US and they would commute across the border each day.

  86. Fisky

    I’d be willing to bet that if there was an open border with Mexico, you would have less Mexicans living in the US and they would commute across the border each day.

    If you had an open border only for US-Mexican citizens, not including Guatemalen interlopers, within a decade there would be more US citizens living in Mexico than the reverse.

  87. jupes

    Cross border migration in the US has been occurring since before the Republic. There are Mexican families in the US with four hundred years of family history in the western states. Their statue is as high as the WASPs in these places.

    I don’t doubt it.

    Prior to that it was an open border and everyone was pretty kosher.

    You just might be gilding the lily here.

    People worked in the US and went home to Mexico in the evening.

    Right. So you’re talking about the actual border. Dunno if you realise this, but they are crossing the border in their millions now and they refuse to go home in the evening.

    By all means, put a lock on the door to stop muzzo immigration, but everyone else is fine.

    Yeah because 100 million hispanics rolling over the border can only be a good thing right? Fuck you libertarians are dense.

  88. Tel

    The southern border was closed down by the socialist FDR in order to mollify the unions. Prior to that it was an open border and everyone was pretty kosher. People worked in the US and went home to Mexico in the evening.

    JC, that was almost a century ago. If you really want to reverse out everything that FDR did to the USA, then that would be a worthwhile effort, but to pretend that by opening the border everything else will just be fine is completely dishonest. The problem is that young native born workers who want to work legally and above board have a lot of constraints on them… minimum wage being one, and a whole stack of regulations being others. As a consequence, they can’t get jobs.

    Illegal workers can ignore the constraints on labour, and employers pretty much know they won’t get busted hiring these people, because despite government promises there is very little enforcement. The obvious outcome is that the illegal workers quickly displace the young native born by offering a much better value proposition to unscrupulous employers.

    So you might argue that all those labour regulations are stupid, and yeah they probably are… but we have this concept which is a rule of law. If it applies to some and not to others then really there is no rule of law, there is just common or garden oppression. In the bigger picture, that can’t be good.

    http://cis.org/all-employment-growth-since-2000-went-to-immigrants

    Government data show that since 2000 all of the net gain in the number of working-age (16 to 65) people holding a job has gone to immigrants (legal and illegal). This is remarkable given that native-born Americans accounted for two-thirds of the growth in the total working-age population. Though there has been some recovery from the Great Recession, there were still fewer working-age natives holding a job in the first quarter of 2014 than in 2000, while the number of immigrants with a job was 5.7 million above the 2000 level.

    All of the net increase in employment went to immigrants in the last 14 years partly because, even before the Great Recession, immigrants were gaining a disproportionate share of jobs relative to their share of population growth. In addition, natives’ losses were somewhat greater during the recession and immigrants have recovered more quickly from it. With 58 million working-age natives not working, the Schumer-Rubio bill (S.744) and similar House measures that would substantially increase the number of foreign workers allowed in the country seem out of touch with the realities of the U.S. labor market.

    Hopefully you can see where this is going to cause a problem.

  89. Fisky

    Yeah because 100 million hispanics rolling over the border can only be a good thing right? Fuck you libertarians are dense

    The real problem even with a more realistic 10 million is it would give the Left a near permanent lock on the White House. On the other hand, I’m told the White House is a terrific BBQ venue, so…

  90. jupes

    but you have put forward a race based immigration policy (whites only)

    I never mentioned race Dot. That was you.

    The only time I mentioned the word ‘white’ was after you brought it up, so I asked you this question (which of course you haven’t answered):

    Stop being an idiot Dot and post a list of countries more free than those developed by white Europeans? Particularly the Anglo ones.

    Qatar perhaps? How about Mexico?

    The difference between you and me is that I’m concerned about culture and you are obsessed with race. You racist lefty fuckwit.

  91. Ant

    I’m calling it:

    Ted Cruz will be the next President of the United States.

    The primary and the general will be brutal, they will be bloody, hatreds will develop that will live on for generations, but the Cruz Missile in its righteous might will win through to absolute victory!!

  92. JC

    Tel

    I understand that FDR was almost a century ago. I’m also a subscriber to the Friedman school of thought that open borders and a welfare state doesn’t work.

    The point I was making was that Jupes is behaving like an eggnog to suggest Mexicans and Americans can’t co-mingle. There’s been heavy duty interaction at the border for hundreds of years. It worked fine. Mexicans aren’t a problem socially. They are politically because they tend to vote D’rat. However if the border was open to allow days workers through even that would not be much of a problem.

  93. Alfonso

    Cruz will do, a shoo in if he advocates a moratorium on the 3rd world invasion of the US. These poor bastards with a cultural death wish still think it’s still 1920, complete with heroic huddle masses who want to assimilate. God punishes slow learners.

  94. jupes

    The point I was making was that Jupes is behaving like an eggnog to suggest Mexicans and Americans can’t co-mingle.

    Oh they can co-mingle alright.

    As Senator Ted Cruz pointed out during a July 21 Judiciary Committee hearing on crimes by illegal immigrants, in 2014 alone, immigration authorities released into American communities 193 illegal immigrants with homicide convictions, 426 people with sexual-assault convictions and 16,000 with drunk-driving convictions. Altogether, 104,000 people who by law should have been deported were instead allowed to remain on American soil. The director of the agency in charge of the removals offered as a partial excuse that immigration courts faced a backlog of 500,000 cases.

    It’s the co-mingling that’s the problem.

  95. Tel

    The point I was making was that Jupes is behaving like an eggnog to suggest Mexicans and Americans can’t co-mingle.

    That’s a totally fair point… nobody likes eggnog.

    As Senator Ted Cruz pointed out during a July 21 Judiciary Committee hearing on crimes by illegal immigrants, in 2014 alone, immigration authorities released into American communities 193 illegal immigrants with homicide convictions, 426 people with sexual-assault convictions and 16,000 with drunk-driving convictions. Altogether, 104,000 people who by law should have been deported were instead allowed to remain on American soil. The director of the agency in charge of the removals offered as a partial excuse that immigration courts faced a backlog of 500,000 cases.

    And the summary? Failure to adhere to the rule of law.

    You cannot look at a person’s skin and figure out if they are a good person. You can take a look at past behaviour and use that to estimate future behaviour.

    The whole point of having a legal system is as a sorting process. That’s what has been undermined in Obama’s nation. We can argue about how that happened, but don’t get distracted from understanding the nature of the problem.

    And yes I understand there are too many laws, there are bad laws, so people just give up and stop bothering to even try to understand it. I also understand that corruption is deep and many rules are applied unfairly and unequally… these are also problems. Maybe even part of the same problem.

    My point is that liberty does require some sort of structured system, with property rights and with the ability for a community to make decisions and to be exclusive based on whatever behaviour they decide is appropriate.

  96. JC

    immigration authorities released into American communities 193 illegal immigrants with homicide convictions, 426 people with sexual-assault convictions and 16,000 with drunk-driving convictions. Altogether, 104,000 people who by law should have been deported were instead allowed to remain on American soil.

    Tell that to the US Administration which refuses to enact their laws, Jupes you eggnog.

    I don’t disagree Tel. In fact I wholeheartedly agree with you.

  97. jupes

    Tell that to the US Administration which refuses to enact their laws, Jupes you eggnog.

    Sure, but wouldn’t it be better to not allow them into the country to commit the crimes in the first place JC you Julie Bishop fanboi.

  98. Tel

    If the law was fully enforced, then there would be no illegal immigrants (by definition).

    Realistically that’s probably not possible, but it rankles when these numpties don’t seem to be making much of an effort and then they get all righteous when someone points that out. You aren’t even supposed to mention that breaking the law is illegal.

    Now if there’s bad laws, then they should be changed (we have a process for that), and if the population as a whole genuinely wants higher levels of immigration (through legal means) or if they want more working visas, etc, and there’s a genuine democratic groundswell in support of that… then fine… get those laws into place.

    Thing is, I believe that the majority want controlled immigration, at a manageable rate, with some degree of selectivity, and the ability to kick people out for misbehaviour. I also think that’s pretty reasonable. The USA already had this discussion back under Reagan, and the outcome was a promise to guard the borders, to bust corporations that were hiring illegally, and to get the people who had been living illegally inside the USA documented and onto the books and covered by the law. That’s what they promised, it’s not what happened, which makes future promises kind of meaningless. That’s why people gravitate towards Trump and away from Jeb & Rubio.

  99. Jim

    Surely Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush–Obama–Clinton will be a lot better than Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush–Obama–Trump.

    I think the GOP are in real trouble if Trump is the candidate. There are a lot of people who might be supporting him in the opinion polling, but will they be able to bring themselves to vote for him when the vote actually counts for something?

  100. BorisG

    Thing is, I believe that the majority want controlled immigration, at a manageable rate, with some degree of selectivity, and the ability to kick people out for misbehaviour. I also think that’s pretty reasonable. The USA already had this discussion back under Reagan, and the outcome was a promise to guard the borders, to bust corporations that were hiring illegally, and to get the people who had been living illegally inside the USA documented and onto the books and covered by the law. That’s what they promised, it’s not what happened

    I recall a few years ago a US congressman said in a TV interview that the sorry situation with illegal immigrants (through Mexican border) is a result of a by-partisan approach. Democrats need illegal immigrants to boost their votes. Republicans need illegal immigrants to provide cheap labour.

  101. .

    jupes
    #1895706, posted on December 23, 2015 at 3:19 pm
    but you have put forward a race based immigration policy (whites only)

    I never mentioned race Dot. That was you.

    Oh you disgusting nazi maggot. You reckoned America would be a third world shithole with anything but purely white immigration.

    Continue to rage on against non whites, gays and be a chest beating atheist. I’m sure you’ll attract a whole host of lovely people to your cause. That will fit into a Morris Minor.

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