Guest Post: John Adams – Time to take Turkey to task over Genocide

The Parliament of Australia needs to grow a backbone when dealing with the Turkish Government.

Across Australia, Australian descendants of Armenians, Assyrians and Greek survivors of the 1914?1923 genocide inflicted by the Turkish led Ottoman Empire continue to hold commemoration ceremonies to remember the victims of one of the most horrific episodes in 20th century history.

In echoes of the modern day actions of the Islamic State, millions of Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Christians were mass slaughtered, forced to convert to Islam, systematically raped or sold into sex slavery, had their property stolen or had their Christian cultural, historical and religious monuments destroyed.

Unlike the Germans, who have publicly recognised and shown remorse for the horrors of the Holocaust and Nazi Germany, the Turkish Government not only refuses to not only acknowledge the genocide, but seeks to punish foreign governments who do.

Of the 21 countries which have recognised the genocide, which includes France, Russia, Canada, Italy, Poland, Greece and Germany, the Turkish Government, in response, has regularly launched sharp diplomatic criticisms, withdrawn their ambassadors and even placed travel restrictions on foreign nationals who wish to visit Turkey.

Despite attempts to have the genocide officially recognised by the Federal Parliament, successive Australian Governments have kowtowed to pressure from Ankara, fearing that official recognition may result in Australians being blocked from visiting the shores of Gallipoli during Anzac ceremonies among other bilateral repercussions.

Such cowardice is out of step with Australian values and historical parliamentary practice.

Australia’s respected international reputation as a good international citizen is derived from being a peace loving nation that is also willing to stand up against injustice and atrocities that have occurred across the world.

Whether it be the Holocaust, Kosovo, Tiananmen Square, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Tibet, East Timor or more recently Syria, Australia has not hesitated to denigrate acts of genocide or systematic human right abuses wherever they have occurred.

Our long standing position has been that failure to acknowledge systematic human rights abuses risks providing the licence for other would be rogue governments that such action is accepted within international practice.

The Australian Parliament should also seek to officially recognise the direct contribution of Australia’s military forces who served in WW1 that helped prevent further mass slaughter of Assyrians during the genocide, including the heroic actions of Australian Army Lieutenant General Stanley Savige.

Savige, who was part of the British secret operation named Dunsterforce, volunteered with the British High Command to lead a force of only eight men under his command which successfully rescued and transported 60,000 Assyrian refugees to safety against Turkish military resistance.

The Turnbull Government should not fear a deterioration in Australia-Turkey relations.

Recent actions by the Turkish Government demonstrate that Turkey is neither a friend to Australia nor a nation that shares common interests or our values.

Turkey has played an instrumental role in facilitating the growth of the Islamic State, despite this being against Australia’s national security interests. It has done this through the purchase of stolen oil seized in both Syria and Iraq by ISIS which the Turkish Government has either actively participated in or turned a blind eye to.

Moreover, the recent mass arrests of academics, journalists and members of the judiciary critical of the Erdogan regime, coupled with the suspension of civil rights, the closure of over 130 media organisations and social media platforms as well as the intermingling of radical theology with public policy demonstrate that Turkey has abandoned its long standing embrace of secularism, western institutions, protections of minorities and democratic practices.

As a result, Christian Turks, among other minorities, have become subject to increasing physical violence, attacks on their churches and even murder.

Without Australia standing with the international community to condemn previous Turkish atrocities and the actions of the current Turkish Government, our inaction risks passively facilitating a repeat of history.

A century ago Australia’s finest gallantly took on the Turks. It is time we now do it again.

John Adams is a former Coalition Advisor

This article was published in today’s Daily Telegraph

This entry was posted in Guest Post, International. Bookmark the permalink.

65 Responses to Guest Post: John Adams – Time to take Turkey to task over Genocide

  1. BrettW

    Agree with the article totally. However it would be a brave Government that did anything that might hinder the many Gallipoli visitors and ANZAC ceremonies in Turkey.

  2. Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger

    For more than a century Australia has paid far too much deference to that disgusting country because of the fraud that is Gallipoli porn.

    Anzac Day is a disgrace and so is Turkey’s sordid history.

  3. JC

    Sorry John, I don’t into this sorry business. The people alive now are up to three generations removed from what occurred in the early 20th century and aren’t responsible for the sins of the past generations.

  4. John Adams

    Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger …

    What is Gallipoli Porn?

    JC…

    If you point is true, then why is the Turkish Govt still seeking to punish countries who recognise the genocide?

  5. JC

    I have no idea why that rancid government is attempting to punish recognition of wrongs done by earlier generations. Perhaps Turks are pissed off they’re being asked to apologize for something they never did.
    However your point isn’t not made anymore valid by pointing out their hostile reaction. The current generations have nothing to be sorry for as they didn’t commit those atrocities. I thought we had got over the idea that the sins of the father carry over to the son, but it seems as though we haven’t.

    This also relates to present day Australians being asked to apologize for taking over this country. What should I feel sorry about?

  6. Leo G

    Of the 21 countries which have recognised the genocide, … , the Turkish Government, in response, has …”

    FIFY

  7. Driftforge

    Intriguing article. Now that Turkey has taken steps towards its own sovereignty, we are required to call them genocidal.

    Kind of like the national level equivalent of calling a person racist.

    And about as effective.

    Besides, given we pulled off one of the more thorough genocides of the last two hundred years, glass houses and stones and all that.

    Then again, we are still members of the international community in good standing, so no need friends for names to be called .

  8. Sinclair Davidson

    What is Gallipoli Porn?

    The glorification of Gallipoli as the Australian foundation myth. It does get a tad annoying – my ancestors and relatives fought in France and their sacrifices are down-played.

  9. Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger

    The glorification of Gallipoli as the Australian foundation myth. It does get a tad annoying – my ancestors and relatives fought in France and their sacrifices are down-played.

    Damn straight. We kicked arse in Western Europe. Something to truly be proud of.

    Gallipoli was a humiliating loss and best forgotten.

    Let’s make history great again.

  10. Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger

    I see resident loony Driftforge is supporting the Islamist Erdogan now.

    By goodness there is a lot of detritus floating around here.

  11. Roger

    Gallipoli was a humiliating loss and best forgotten.

    Humiliating? A military failure, to be sure, but not of our fault, and there was no humiliation about the way we conducted ourselves. But yes, the Western front is the story that needs to be told, from the diggers through to Monash.

  12. Leo G

    The glorification of Gallipoli as the Australian foundation myth.

    There were Australian regiments with Australian commanders in the Boer Wars.

  13. classical_hero

    Only Israel has to show restraint.

  14. J.H.

    Turkey isn’t the Ottoman Empire. The modern State of Turkey was founded in 1923. It’s current constitution was formed in 1982. The “Armenian Genocide” was committed in 1915.

    Turkish Nationalists were enemies of the the Ottoman Empire…. So it’s a bit tough to be blaming the modern Turkish State for the crimes of the Ottoman Empire.

  15. John Adams

    J.H… I can accept this, unfortunately the Turkish Government can’t accept this.

  16. Game over motherfuckers! Grey Wolves coming to get you.

  17. Game over motherfuckers! Grey Wolves coming to get you. Stay calm, don’t panic.

  18. rich

    Turkey isn’t the Ottoman Empire. The modern State of Turkey was founded in 1923. It’s current constitution was formed in 1982. The “Armenian Genocide” was committed in 1915.

    Turkish Nationalists were enemies of the the Ottoman Empire…. So it’s a bit tough to be blaming the modern Turkish State for the crimes of the Ottoman Empire.

    I had some Armenian friends, to whom I said, you may never get that apology, but have four children because the Turks are going extinct.

  19. James Hargrave

    You can hardly blame the Ottoman Empire since by that stage it was a sad, hollowed-out shadow in which those world-class inepts, the Young Turks, were pulling the strings, partly behind but increasingly in front of the scenes (the most prominent of them tended to die prematurely, but deservedly, to Armenian assassins). And for Young Turks, think many of the same sort of people setting up the supposedly new Turkey (after their ‘War of Independence’ from themselves). And the Greeks, in the hands of the serially revolting Venizelos – a megalomaniac of the ‘Megali’ idea – sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind (alas, by a trick of fate and electoral politics, it was often those less enamoured of his mad Anatolian adventure, but who inherited it in its later stages, who took the bullet for him. And several were judicially murdered by their own side. Greece and Turkey – an object lesson in the tyranny of small differences, played out repeatedly up to Cyprus in 1974 to the harm of both.

  20. Rabz

    Has anyone sought the measured opinions of Cenk Uygur on this controversial topic?

  21. I see resident loony Driftforge is supporting the Islamist Erdogan now.

    Supporting and noting are two different things. But a fair observation in the sense that I prefer to see sovereignty distributed widely rather than concentrated in a single pole. Doesn’t that mean that every instance is or is going to be exemplary.

  22. nfw

    Criticise Turkey? A new islimic state? No politician is ever going to do that. They’re islimics now; you know, the world’s perpetual victims.

  23. Megan

    The Limp Lettuce Leaf In Charge would never take this on.

  24. john malpas

    This is the era of the apology. Any western country that doesn’t apologise / offer compensation and affirmative action is highly unfashionable.
    So if you want to join the west you gotta say sorry.

  25. Lem

    The Turkish atrocities of the past are one thing.

    What really matters is what is happening now with the rise of an Islamic Dictator within the bosom of NATO.

    Australia is a pathetic third rate economy with no power to effect positive change for freedoms anywhere in the world, heck, our local lot won’t even restore Free Speech by abolishing 18C.

    So what is the US doing about protecting the freedoms and rights of people in Turkey?

    Oh, wait…Incirlick Air Base..

  26. Old School Conservative

    Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger
    #2111101, posted on August 5, 2016 at 10:21 pm
    For more than a century Australia has paid far too much deference to that disgusting country because of the fraud that is Gallipoli porn.

    Let’s not fall into the trap set by leftists and use derogatory names for the sacrifice and bravery shown at Gallipoli. It was a foundational event in Australia’s growth to nationhood.
    Far better to keep respecting what was achieved at Gallipoli whilst simultaneously ramping up the community knowledge and due deference to those who fought and died on the Western Front.

  27. Fred of Greenslopes

    I think it unlikely that we will see any more Gallipoli remembrance ceremonies in Turkey. The era of secular government is over. But we will never forget the wonderful words of Ataturk.

  28. feelthebern

    Never gunna happen.
    Look at a map.
    How you meant to get from West to East with out Turkey?
    Go through Russia?
    Unlikely.
    This is why everyone from China, US even India is sucking up to Turkey and Iran so the OBOR project can proceed.

  29. bystander

    JC
    #2111102, posted on August 5, 2016 at 10:22 pm

    Sorry John, I don’t into this sorry business. The people alive now are up to three generations removed from what occurred in the early 20th century and aren’t responsible for the sins of the past generations.

    Greater minds than mine would have to pad this out but JC’s comment raises issues about whether a ntion is a corporate type entity with the attendant element of perpetuity or whether a nation renews itself as a discreet entity every 50 or so years. I’m buggered if I an tjhink this one right through.

  30. Pete of Freo

    ” … a foundational event in Australia’s growth to nationhood…” So were the 1891 shearers’ strike and the 1890s Depression, so let’s all celebrate them too.
    And don’t blather on about “nationhood”, that’s something the Eastern States pull out from a hat whenever they run out of wealth to plunder, and put away when there’s any defending of the “nation” to do, or highways to build where the wealth is generated.
    All of this looking back, this Gallipolli and Western Front wanking, to find something vaguely “glorious” in our history is just a cover up for the fuck-up we’ve made of it since. It is just sickening; and just made more so by the ghoulish mummery of digging through mass graves to sort through the rotted corpses so we can dig-em-up and bury them again a few klicks away, surrounded by politicians, bureaucrats and Press vultures on a junket, and a few lucky punters who happened to share the poor Digger’s DNA, who fly home with a belt buckle, or the tongue of a boot to stick under Grandpa Bert’s photo on the mantle.
    And, oh yeah, Turkey, let’s, from our position of high moral superiority, take them to task on something that happened 100 years ago, that was just a part of the ongoing 1400 year war against “infidels” which continues to this day, and which, we all studiously choose to ignore. The same way that we morally enlightened Australians ignore the hundreds of thousands of innocent unborn on whom we commit genocide each year at the taxpayers expense. For fuck’s sake, the Diggers would roll over in their graves!

  31. Empire

    It was a foundational event in Australia’s growth to nationhood

    Let’s not fall into the trap of perpetuating a myth.

  32. What Lem said.

    Sane NATO policies on the ME and Russia (I know, I know…but I can dream), support for those who support women, Christians and Jews in Muslim countries (that would be Assad), restoration of free speech in Oz so we don’t end up like Armenians, at the mercy of our own Young Turks of the SJW class.

    I’m really sorry for the snowflakes who feel too much emphasis is placed on Gallipoli because they had relatives who fought/died somewhere else. Maybe there’s a counselling service for that and a special victimhood denomination for them – but Gallipoli will do nicely as a commemoration focus and place of pilgrimage.

    Till recently there has been every reason to collaborate with a Kemalist Turkey, even to the point of allowing them to grab their slice of Cyrpus. That has all changed, partly through the colossal bunglings of NATO, the EU and Turkey’s old buddie Germany, but it won’t be remedied by taking up a fashionista cause like the Armenian genocide apology. (What, the French Republic will then apologise for the Vendee genocide?)

    This is just the kind of empty posturing that Malcolm Turnbull will turn to more and more now that practical decision and action are out of the question forever. To get back that warm and moist-legged relationship with the Posh Left and ABC harpies Malcolm will be all too happy spend millions on any sort of costly gesture or symbolism that leads nowhere – except to a welcoming ABC studio. Don’t encourage him!

    I don’t know how one rearranges geopolitics so that the Anglosphere can cooperate with Russia while putting Turkey and the EU in their respective places. I don’t know how we stop running policy for Sunnis, Gulf States, the MB and the arms industry and put secular states like Israel and Syria on an axis with Russia so the world gets a few more years of uneasy peace and the hardcore ratbags of Islam get duly marginalised. I don’t even know if that’s the exact right plan. But I do know that this is where the “courage” needs to go.

    Armenians, Azeris, Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Persians…it’s been a long and dodgy history between that lot and things could still turn bloody. Forget the car sticker/T-shirt crusading on fashionable issues. Let’s not have special coloured Armenia ribbons for celebs to wear at the Oscars.

    Peace will come hard, but the West is being run by flakes and narcissists whose main purpose is to look good for the feel-good people. Now that they can’t get photo-ops with Mandela some Armenian Genocide stoking might be just the ticket, especially if bungling Western Intel was behind the failed coup.

    Kids out of the kitchen, please. It’s grown-up time.

  33. Boambee John

    It is time that all Australian war graves were repatriated from Moslem countries.

    There have already been desecrations of Commonwealth war graves in places like Gaza, these are only likely to increase. The cross on most of them, and the occasional Star of David, will become provocations to the perpetually offended of the MENA. Remove the remains (only need a small box by this time) and the headstones to cemetries in Australia.

    On the subject of the Western Front, we are well into the centenary year of the arrival of Australian troops there, but not much is appearing in the media. I suspect that the MSM is giving the whole subject the “death by silence” treatment.

  34. .

    Rabz
    #2111284, posted on August 6, 2016 at 6:33 am
    Has anyone sought the measured opinions of Cenk Uygur on this controversial topic?

    Come on rabz. Cenk had Alex Jones in his face last time. Jones was being a dick.

  35. .

    Boambee John
    #2111418, posted on August 6, 2016 at 10:42 am
    It is time that all Australian war graves were repatriated from Moslem countries.

    At what cost. What is a Muslim country strictly speaking?

    Empire
    #2111406, posted on August 6, 2016 at 10:27 am
    It was a foundational event in Australia’s growth to nationhood

    Let’s not fall into the trap of perpetuating a myth.

    At the start of WWI, the dominions were unable to refuse to declare war on the UK’s enemies.

    At the end of the war, they negotiated as sovereign states at Versailles. The war in total accounted for something.

  36. Empire

    Turkey sits at the crossroads of fossil fuel transport for Europe and is rationally seeking to extract maximum rent from its present monopoly. That the executive desires caliphatic grandeur and values Islamic imperial influence is a worry. More so that there is popular support among the citizenry for theocratic empire.

    I can’t see how it is in Australia’s interests to have the state formally whinge about the sins of the Ottoman Empire. Erdogan probably gets his rocks off on this stuff. It would be like chastising an adolescent lad for hoarding stick flicks.

    What’s the point? We can tell it like it is right here.

  37. Empire

    Dot

    Yes WWI counted for something, but OSC was referring specifically to Gallipoli.

  38. I am the Walras, Equilibrate, and Price-Take

    John ‘Arfur Sinobeidis worked at Treasury for 20-odd years but I think I could be his economics advisor’ Adams last week: ‘The State has the right and obligation to kill people it doesn’t like.’

    John ‘Hey Arfur here’s a chart of GDP growf’ Adams this week: ‘We should condemn another state for killing people it doesn’t like’.

    ALT-CATALLAXY – WE USED TO BE A LIBERTARIAN BLOG

  39. old bloke

    Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger
    #2111127, posted on August 5, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    Damn straight. We kicked arse in Western Europe. Something to truly be proud of.

    True, and the campaigns in the mid-east, i.e., the charge at Beersheba, the surrender of Damascus, etc.

    Leo G
    #2111159, posted on August 5, 2016 at 11:32 pm

    There were Australian regiments with Australian commanders in the Boer Wars.

    There were State (colony) regiments with State (colony) commanders, “Australia” as a sovereign nation didn’t exist until 1901. Colonial volunteers also served in earlier campaigns, i.e., the Sudan Campaign and the Boxer Rebellion in China.

    Maybe we should ask China if we can hold an annual commemoration service at Tiananmen Square?

  40. Y

    The Armenian genocide was an atrocity on par with anything in the 20th C. A fucking acknowledgement that it even happened would be nice.

    Turkey in nato was a huge mistake.

  41. Makka

    “Gallipoli was a humiliating loss and best forgotten. ”


    Gallipoli must never be forgotten. Ever. The problem is Gallipoli is primarily remembered for the wrong things. While there was undoubted bravery and sacrifice, what must never be forgotten was the abject folly of the campaign and the poor execution that drew such a heavy cost to young Australian men. Nor to be forgotten was the trust these men put in their nations leaders who frankly let them down miserably by allowing participation in this frivolous campaign. Glorifying our dead of Gallipoli, while honouring their bravery, covers up the folly of their slaughter there. No, Gallipoli must never be forgotten.

    On their graves, it is sacred ground however times change. While not our enemy, Turkey can’t be considered a friendly state given its recent plunge transformation in progress towards an Islamified state. That situation will only deteriorate further. Bring those bodies home whatever the cost and inter them here on Australian soil. It is right that this be done and soon. It’s us who have the responsibility to look after their graves, not the Turkish Govt.

  42. Makka

    “The people alive now are up to three generations removed from what occurred in the early 20th century and aren’t responsible for the sins of the past generations.”

    This is the wrong argument. It’s the argument of the coward. You are also saying that Japan is right to not accept responsibility for it’s horrendous actions in Asia and the Pacific in the 1930’s and 40’s. That’s outright bullshit and you should know it.

    What Turkey has successfully done all these years is prevent even an official acknowledgement that the Armenian Genocide even existed. It most certainly did and it’s long past due that the world (fk Turkey) recognise that appalling event for what it was. The state sanctioned murder of millions- just like the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking. Turkey has been cut far too much slack. There should be official and universal recognition that the Armenian Genocide occurred. In terms of reparations who knows, let the chips fall where they may. None of this is a determination of guilt on Turks of today but it does stand up for the millions who were slaughtered basically for being Christian in the wrong place and time.

  43. Myrddin Seren

    Not trying to nit pick here, but the dreadful fate of the Turkish Armenian population should not be viewed in isolation, out of respect for all the minorities that suffered.

    Wiki-ing ( I know, I know – but it is quick, easy and tends not to make the spaminator poop itself )

    List of massacres in Turkey

    Ignore the stuff pre-1890.

    Victims: Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Bulgarians. I have a feeling the You-Know-Whos used to get it in the neck fairly regularly too ?

    Results:

    The percentage of Christians in Turkey fell from 19% (or perhaps as high as 25% of the population of 16 million) in 1914 to 2.5 percent in 1927, due to events which had a significant impact on the country’s demographic structure, such as:

    the Armenian Genocide,
    the population exchange between Greece and Turkey,and
    the emigration of Christians (such as Levantines, Greeks, Armenians etc.) to foreign countries (mostly in Europe and the Americas) that actually began in the late 19th century and gained pace in the first quarter of the 20th century, especially during World War I and after the Turkish War of Independence.

    Today there are more than 250,000 people of different Christian denominations, representing less than .4 percent of Turkey’s population

    The cradle of both Christianity and Hellenised Jews has been nearly cleansed by Turkish Islam. Given recent events, one suspects the already miniscule populations of non-Muslims will shrink even further.

  44. Myrddin Seren

    Drat – missed one of the spaminators Bird-triggers ! Go around again for another landing

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Not trying to nit pick here, but the dreadful fate of the Turkish Armenian population should not be viewed in isolation, out of respect for all the minorities that suffered.

    Wiki-ing ( I know, I know – but it is quick, easy and tends not to make the spaminator poop itself )

    List of massacres in Turkey

    Ignore the stuff pre-1890.

    Victims: Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Bulgarians. I have a feeling the You-Know-Whos used to get it in the neck fairly regularly too ?

    Results:

    The percentage of Christians in Turkey fell from 19% (or perhaps as high as 25% of the population of 16 million) in 1914 to 2.5 percent in 1927, due to events which had a significant impact on the country’s demographic structure, such as:

    the Armenian Genocide,
    the population exchange between Greece and Turkey,and
    the emigration of Christians (such as Levantines, Greeks, Armenians etc.) to foreign countries (mostly in Europe and the Americas) that actually began in the late 19th century and gained pace in the first quarter of the 20th century, especially during World War I and after the Turkish War of Independence.

    Today there are more than 250,000 people of different Christian denominations, representing less than .4 percent of Turkey’s population

    The cradle of both Christianity and Hellenised J**s has been nearly cleansed by Turkish Islam. Given recent events, one suspects the already miniscule populations of non-Muslims will shrink even further.

  45. notafan

    The glorification of Gallipoli as the Australian foundation myth. It does get a tad annoying – my ancestors and relatives fought in France and their sacrifices are down-played.

    Nothing like surviving Gallipoli and getting killed or permanently invaliding by gas in France (and meh as a thankyou for the gassed).

    It’s not a genocide if you refuse to convert to islam. by the way, more of a cleansing really.

  46. BorisG

    Perhaps Turks are pissed off they’re being asked to apologize for something they never did.

    Recognition of genocide does not force anyone to apologize. It is recognition of the historical fact. By objecting to this, the current government associates itself with the genocide.

  47. BorisG

    Turkish Nationalists were enemies of the the Ottoman Empire…. So it’s a bit tough to be blaming the modern Turkish State for the crimes of the Ottoman Empire.

    Correct. And recognition of the genocide does not do that. It does not blame the current Turks nor their government. It is curious that the leaders so strongly object to that.

  48. BrettW

    As somebody mentioned to me today the allies need to support Turkey due to Incirlik air base which has been used for Middle East operations including the current air campaign.

  49. Makka

    With Erdogan the Dictator for Life of the Islamic State of Turkey, within 10 years Turks will be pissing on the graves of our fallen at Gallipoli. Bring them home. Now.

  50. Makka

    Brett,
    Turkey’s value to the West and particularly NATO is a throw back to the Cold War times. There are alternatives to Incirlik for the US but because there is a moslem in the WH it’s convenient to keep operations there. All of Islam is a friendly state to the gutter slime POTUS.

  51. Jannie

    The sacrifice of those brave young men deserves recognition and remembering. The bravery of youthful ignorance in 1915 was replaced by a professional, determined and fatalistic courage by 1918. The near criminal stupidity of the class military leaders who wasted their lives in wanton “breakthroughs” must not be forgotten. Nor should the development of the humane and intelligent leadership of John Monash be forgotten.

    The Diggers had great respect for Johnny Turk, and little for Abdul. But they had no experience of the Armenian genocide.

    The Sons are not guilty of the fathers sins, nor should the sons have to apologise for their fathers actions. However the Turks should recognise that it occurred. Denial of basic recognition is an insult by the living to the living. And such denial suggests the sons do indeed carry the guilt in their hearts, for they know they themselves could and would do the same thing today.

  52. old bloke

    Jannie
    #2111667, posted on August 6, 2016 at 3:38 pm

    The bravery of youthful ignorance in 1915 was replaced by a professional, determined and fatalistic courage by 1918.

    True, those who enrolled after Gallipoli were known as the “fair dinkums.” They had seen the damaged wounded coming home from the Gallipoli campaign and weren’t under any misapprehension regarding how deadly warfare was, yet they queued up to volunteer.

    Nor should the development of the humane and intelligent leadership of John Monash be forgotten.

    All the more reason why Monash should receive a posthumous Field Marshall’s baton.

  53. BorisG

    Turkey’s value to the West and particularly NATO is a throw back to the Cold War times.

    Cold War is still on. Russia still has its vast nuclear arsenal, has aspirations to rebuild its empire and is a threat to all its neighbors and beyond.

  54. wreckage

    John Adams, I agree 100%.

  55. Artist Formerly Known As Infidel Tiger
    #2111101, posted on August 5, 2016 at 10:21 pm
    For more than a century Australia has paid far too much deference to that disgusting country

    Turkey is a nation of 80 million people. You call the whole nation disgusting because of the actions of disgusting politicians who’ve wrested control. That makes you disgusting.

    By the way, no other people in the modern era renewed itself like the Turks did under the leadership of Kemal Ataturk. Heck, they even shut down all the madrasas and cleared out the mullahs, even hanged some of them, changed the whole culture not just the constitution.
    Considering modern Turkey is (actually now was, but that’s another story) a totally new nation to that of the Ottomans (almost all of whom either fled the country or were killed) I don’t see why they should apologise for it. Recognize sure, but not apologise.
    The Japanese did not renew, they even kept their emperor etc, not the same, not even close.

    Disclosure: I am a Turkish born Australian. First 10 years of my life there, the next 47 years here.

  56. Makka

    actually now was, but that’s another story

    It’s the story that matters the most in the context of this article. Turkey has gone backwards which means our relations with Turkey need to change as well.

  57. testpattern

    ‘Let’s not … Perpetuate a myth’

    Just 15 years after ww1 wa led by angry white supremacist ex servicemen voted to secede. Arguably the most serious act of subversion in our history. So much for Gallipoli as nation building.

    Not a word by the author on the Kurds, the shock troops who led the genocide. Their intention was to clear christians from land wanted for an eventual Kurdistan. They at least have begun to acknowledge their role and apologise. But not return the land.

    The author blithely reels off alleged genocides without listing that of indigenous australians. How very Turkish of him. Nor is he a scholar of regional history. Timor genocide? Don’t you know the difference between resistance propaganda and scholarship?

  58. testpattern

    Democide is another useful concept. Genocide as presently defined is a very broad interpretation. Some critics would prefer A new definition and also introduce the category of democide to international law. Some of the markers currently defined as genocide could equally be redefined as pre genocidal warning signs.

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/GENOCIDE.HTM

  59. Makka

    “Just 15 years after ww1 wa led by angry white supremacist ex servicemen voted to secede. Arguably the most serious act of subversion in our history. So much for Gallipoli as nation building. ”

    I’m rather sick of your constant white fella bashing testpattern. Why don’t you take yourself and that big chip on your (coloured?) shoulder and fk off. Those white ex-servicemean earned their right to express their political beliefs. You aren’t fit to polish their shoes.

  60. testpattern

    ‘I’m rather sick’

    Only true thing you’ve ever said here.

    Is it true you paid for a degree in white lives matter studies at trump uni?

    I suppose it all goes back to your childhood when you failed piano because you refused to touch the black keys.

  61. Makka

    You’re a crybaby racist c*nt , testpattern. I don’t rate you as anything more. You are one of those hypocrites who constantly shitcan the “white” British civil society that you benefit from. If you loath the place so much why not fk off .

  62. Makka

    “white lives matter studies at trump uni? ”

    Lol. No doubt you received your education at one of the many outstanding indigenous education institutions.

  63. Jannie

    old bloke, I certainly agree that Monash more than deserves the baton, but that is not particularly illustrious company, especially when compared to contemporaries Haig, Egerton, or Plumer. Even Allenby, who made his name using Anzac mounted infantry as the point of his spear, was unimaginative and wasted his opportunities. Only Monash understood that the troops were the most precious resource of war, real flesh and blood men who had to be nurtured and protected so that they would fight with courage and determination, and expect to win.

  64. Cruck

    Thank you, Mr Adams. I could not have put it any better myself. You have itemised all the important points about the genocide as they relate to Australia and Australians. There are more of course, and one of them that needs to be addressed is the Tukish endeavour to have the Genocide omitted from historical books and documents. In this they have been very succesful, and that is why many people still do not know what an Armenian is, let alone the genocide. I really do not think many of the comments that are dismissive of your post would have popped up if the readers knew of the extent of the atrocities, about half in number of the Jewish holocaust, that is, about 3 million Christians. Then there was the manner in which the atrocities were committed, etc. This is mot something you can explain away by suggesting we should “move on”.

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