Guest Post: Bruce of Newcastle E10 is quietly killing the NSW Libs

Earlier this year the Baird LNP government brought in huge punitive fines, up to $550,000, for service stations if they do not stock E10 fuel.  The legislation is intended to increase E1o usage to 6% of all fuel sold.  As usual this is supposed to help save us all from global warming which is not actually happening.

Now this week the ACCC in their wisdom have issued a report on fuel consumption.  It has some interesting data on the nanny state called NSW.  Here’s a quote from the report:

“Some motorists who could not, or chose not to, use E10 in their vehicles used premium unleaded petrol (PULP) due to the reduced availability of RULP [ie. regular ULP].

Motorists in Sydney purchased significantly higher volumes of PULP and E10 (i.e. RULP with up to 10 per cent ethanol) and much lower volumes of RULP than motorists in other states. In 2014?15, PULP made up 54 per cent of total petrol sales in Sydney and E10 made up 36 per cent. In comparison, PULP sales as a proportion of total petrol sales in Australia excluding NSW were 23 per cent and E10 sales were 4 per cent.”

So because service stations are being forced to stock E10 we’re seeing NSW drivers purchasing much more expensive premium petrol just to avoid buying E10.  So much so that premium petrol, which is 10-15 c/L more expensive, now is up to 54% of total sales.

Wow, is that a rebellion or what?  It also doesn’t count the annoyed drivers forced to fill up with cheaper E10, which made up 36% of petrol sold in NSW but only 4% in other states where consumers had a choice.

Personally I choose to go to the few remaining service stations that provide ethanol-free ULP and fill up with that.  But I buy premium ethanol-free petrol when I get stuck in a servo without ordinary ULP.  I do that because I would be a hypocrite if I used biofuel.

Not only is there no global warming occurring in the real world, but bioethanol and biodiesel are useless for avoiding CO2 emissions, cause catastrophic ecological damage and contribute to hundreds of thousands of deaths each year in poor countries through food price inflation.

So why is Mike Baird ramming E10 down our throats when it doesn’t even do what it is supposed to do, and is incredibly unpopular according to the ACCC?  I have no idea.

But I strongly suspect that every time the people of Western Sydney fill up their tanks with expensive premium petrol, because there is no ULP available at their local service station, they think small curses at the Baird government.

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143 Responses to Guest Post: Bruce of Newcastle E10 is quietly killing the NSW Libs

  1. HGS

    they think small curses at the Baird government.

    No,drivers don’t curse the Baird Gov, they just curse. I have talked with many people about it. They don’t like it, but they don’t know the reason for it. There is no mechanism for blame nor is there any accountability.

    Why do the NSW Liberal Party do this? Perhaps Thy Don’t Care Much About Anyone Else.

  2. wreckage

    The E10 is horrible stuff, by the time you factor in the pissweak energy content you’re better off, $/mile, buying PULP.

  3. Tel

    I buy the premium for the old Toyota because I’ve tried the E10 and in runs really badly. I was told that the engine management will learn a certain fuel over time and if you are intending to change fuel type as a standard policy there’s a way to clear the memory by leaving the battery disconnected a long time. That said, the procedure seemed too difficult and the premium does appear to be better.

    I know someone else who was told by the dealer never to use E10 under any circumstances (totally different car, much newer).

  4. Tel

    By the way, did anyone notice how when oil prices fell through the floor, the price at the pump hardly changed?

    Funny about that…

  5. mareeS

    Hullo Bruce of Newcastle from mareeS here in Newcastle, good post.

    Our car can’t use e10 if it wants to do its job properly and last beyond a few years, so we use premium. Costs are unfair, but we are over it, happy to use big carbon until we die.

    In our garden we have a massive block of coal that my brothers and I brought home from Merewether Beach in the 1960s, proudly still here next to the beach in homage to the miners in the family, including son who helped build the 3rd coal loader. He’s currently between Darwin, MacArthur River,and Port Hedland, because jobs for skilled mining tradies are,drying up here. Hence, I’m hating latte types.

  6. BrettW

    Had heard of this before but did not realise might mean some petrol stations would not have regular petrol.

    Heard Rod Sims on radio today mentioning the high rates of premium purchases in NSW compared to the rest of Australia. Simply amazing.

    I must have been mistaken but I thought NSW had a Liberal Government. Silly me. Guess it must now be Green.

  7. egg_

    The E10 is horrible stuff, by the time you factor in the pissweak energy content you’re better off, $/mile, buying PULP.

    +1

    My E10 6.0L runs rough as guts on it, it’s worth the extra few cents per litre for Standard ULP and, if anything, there is an improvement in economy and responsiveness as well as smoothness.

  8. miltonf

    I think E10 is crap and will not use it- as mentioned above, lower energy density.

    Also I suspect it the energy used in producing/delivering it is close to the amount that it locks in from the sun via photosynthesis.

    Baird is a lot worse then Baillue/Napthine whom you could live with even if they were disappointing.

  9. Tim Neilson

    Baird is a lot worse then Baillue/Napthine whom you could live with even if they were disappointing.
    By doing absolutely nothing, Baillieu let Victoria’s public finances drift back into decent condition (just in time to let CFMEU puppet Andrews squander it all, of course). Sure, there were a million and one things that he should have done and didn’t, but a totally inert government isn’t the worst of all evils.

  10. entropy

    So why is Mike Baird ramming E10 down our throats when it doesn’t even do what it is supposed to do, and is incredibly unpopular according to the ACCC? I have no idea.

    *ethanol company carpet baggers and lobbyists.
    *ethanol companies are major donors to the liberal party. And
    *green image.

    So three reasons, none of them worthy.

    In Queensland, there is also the Katter factor. For some reason the red faced idiot reckons it would help sugar cane producers, despite higher returns for sugar anyway.

  11. miltonf

    Yes Tim they were silly to run a surplus- they should have cut stamp duty or payroll tax. Leave a landmine for Labor.

  12. entropy

    Also I suspect it the energy used in producing/delivering it is close to the amount that it locks in from the sun via photosynthesis.

    it isn’t too bad if made from sugar cane. Line ball really, as long as you have the mill already set up for it (otherwise set up cost is too high). But most of it isn’t, instead using grain. That is actually bad for TEH ENVIRNMNT

  13. miltonf

    So entropy, would it be correct to say if you had to use ethanol to plant, harvest and process the fuel, all of it (or a substantial part of it) would be used in its production?

  14. Neil

    As usual this is supposed to help save us all from global warming which is not actually happening.

    There are other reasons for using E10. It cuts down on the amount of petrol we need to import. Helps with our energy self sufficiency. Provides employment and creates a value added product.

  15. brennan

    I won’t use the stuff. I know which of the servos near home and work that have RULP and that’s what I use in my >20yo Falcon. Runs OK on E10 and I’ll only use it if I’m driving on fumes, but will only put in $10 worth and stop again at the local independent that has RULP.

    E10 discussion came up at a lunch conversation on a worksite I was at recently. There were 12 guys there and none would willingly use it in their vehicles.

  16. Infidel Tiger

    Great stuff Bruce.

    Mike Baird is the greatest living enemy to freedom in Australia. This must stop.

  17. Indolent

    *ethanol company carpet baggers and lobbyists.
    *ethanol companies are major donors to the liberal party. And
    *green image.

    You can add Alan Jones to this. He has some really ludicrous blind spots. He thinks it helps the farmers to force people to use food in their car. Never mind the people dying from cost inflation. Never mind the damage to cars which were never intended to run on bio rubbish.

  18. Tator

    Is this a case of a Liberal Government turning Green or is it a Liberal Government being captured by the Greenfilth embedded in the public service who suggest such policies. Either way, the swamp needs to be drained.

  19. Rohan

    There are other reasons for using E10. It cuts down on the amount of petrol we need to import. Helps with our energy self sufficiency. Provides employment and creates a value added product.

    There’s no need for self sufficiency from a second rate fuel. There’s supposed to be a small ocean of oil under South Australia.

  20. Indolent

    Helps with our energy self sufficiency.

    No, we would have plenty of energy if only our lords and masters permitted us to mine it. This is another area where Alan Jones is a millstone.

    Trump plans to make America energy self-sufficient and there’s absolutely nothing to stop him doing so if he can muzzle the naysayers.

  21. Bruce of Newcastle

    There are other reasons for using E10. It cuts down on the amount of petrol we need to import. Helps with our energy self sufficiency. Provides employment and creates a value added product.

    Neil – if we seriously want to do all of that we wouldn’t be shutting oil refineries, we’d be encouraging oil and gas exploration rather than banning it and we’d be looking at coal-to-liquids. We have enough coal available for our liquid fuel needs for millennia. The technology is in operation in South Africa and China already.

    Burning food in cars is immoral when people are suffering malnutrition due to not being able to afford enough to eat.

  22. Neil

    . He thinks it helps the farmers to force people to use food in their car.

    Manildra uses waste starch to make ethanol which would be dumped otherwise. So i think it does help the farmers. Nothing is wasted in the production of starch. The starch unfit for human consumption is used to make ethanol.

  23. Indolent

    Is this a case of a Liberal Government turning Green or is it a Liberal Government being captured by the Greenfilth embedded in the public service who suggest such policies. Either way, the swamp needs to be drained.

    Baird is an incipient dictator. He believes he knows best about everything. Personal choice, the cornerstone of liberalism, just doesn’t come into it. And you’re right – he’s to the left of Labor. Just like with Turnbull, he’ll go at the bottom of my ballot sheet at the next election, right next to the greens.

  24. Bruce of Newcastle

    Manildra uses waste starch to make ethanol which would be dumped otherwise.

    Rubbish. If they couldn’t sell it as un-excised ethanol it would be converted to stock feed.
    If Manildra’s ethanol was hit the full 39.5 c/L in excise instead of a laughable 2.6 c/L they’d be producing stock feed with it before you could say ‘moo’.

  25. Neil

    Burning food in cars is immoral when people are suffering malnutrition due to not being able to afford enough to eat.

    Manildra uses waste starch unfit for human consumption to make ethanol

    http://e10thegoodfuel.com.au/how-we-make-e10/

    Starch is used by a number of businesses within the confectionary, beverage and paper industries.
    The residual starch from this process is fermented and converted to Ethanol, which is simply alcohol.

  26. H B Bear

    If you have to use the dead hand of government regulation to force people to use ethanol there is no market for it and it should be dumped. Manildra have been bending over the so-called Liberal Party for as long as I can remember.

  27. entropy

    Neil
    #2222375, posted on November 28, 2016 at 10:15 pm
    . He thinks it helps the farmers to force people to use food in their car.

    Manildra uses waste starch to make ethanol which would be dumped otherwise. So i think it does help the farmers. Nothing is wasted in the production of starch. The starch unfit for human consumption is used to make ethanol.

    err, where do you think the starch comes from? It’s wheat, Neil.

    The point is that there is no real environmental benefit from producing grain based ethanol due to the energy used in processing, and if the starch wasn’t used for fuel production it could be used for other things if not suitable for consumption, like pharmaceuticals, stockfeed, whatever. I am happy for it to be used for ethanol, but I do not believe that a viable market in powering internal combustion motors would exist without government intervention.

    As for it being good for the farmer, Australia exports most of its wheat and it is a commodity (with some niche exceptions), and thus the price farmers receive is set by the world price of traded wheat. Manildra therefore has no impact whatsoever on wheat prices or meaningful demand, so it is a real, real big stretch to say ethanol does anything at all for anyone except line the pockets of the family that owns manildra, which happens to be considerably lined due to government fiat.

    The best you can say is better them than a geothermal, windmill or solar subsidy farmer.

  28. Bruce in WA

    I’ve had all sorts of dire warnings about not using E10 in my BMW motorbike. I use 95 as a matter of fact, but I’ll pay for 98 rather than use ethanol!

  29. Snoopy

    CarsGuide test

    Granted E10 is cheaper but the 2 cents a litre difference in price is simply not enough to warrant using E10 which costs $15.93 per 100km, compared to $15.08 for standard unleaded. E10 would have to be $1.26 a litre or less to justify swapping – 7 cents cheaper not 2 as it usually is.

  30. Neil

    err, where do you think the starch comes from? It’s wheat, Neil.

    Yes and in the process of making the starch from wheat some of the starch is not of a high enough grade for human consumption. It is this waste starch that Manildra uses to make ethanol.

    http://e10thegoodfuel.com.au/how-we-make-e10/

    Manildra Group makes its ethanol from waste as part of an integrated manufacturing process at our Nowra plant……Starch is used by a number of businesses within the confectionary, beverage and paper industries.
    The residual starch from this process is fermented and converted to Ethanol, which is simply alcohol……The waste from ethanol production is turned in to a protein rich livestock feed that supplements the diet of hundreds of thousands of cattle in Australia, New Zealand and the international market.

  31. a reader

    Won’t touch the stuff. It’s bloody horrid. One of the good things about driving interstate regularly is I can get proper petrol. I’ve also memorised all the servos with normal 91 ULP on the Sturt and Hume highways!

  32. Bruce of Newcastle

    Neil – Forgive me if I sound dismissive but I am an R&D chemist by trade and I am offended by the deaths caused by the biofuel mafia. Something like 45% of the US maize crop goes into car gasoline tanks while poor people in West Africa and South Asia have trouble buying enough food each day to survive. In Haiti there are vendors who sell mud pies to the poorest of poor, since the mud is filling (yes I know the excuses from the UN and suchlike – mineral deficiency…are you kidding?)

    If the green left really wanted to produce a carbon neutral liquid fuel, which bioethanol certainly isn’t, they would go after nuclear methanol, which is not bad on a cost comparison with conventional petrol. You can put methanol into a car with only modest changes, and the distribution chain through service stations and tankers doesn’t have to change at all.

    But the green left have a religious thing against nuclear energy.

    It is all crap. Crap which kills poor people.

  33. Habib

    It’s not E10 that’s killing them, it’s the infiltration of green zealots, leftist imbeciles, and halfwitted bullies into the Liberal and National parties. Baird is a perfect example of an ugly, irrational composite of all three despicable and dangerous factions. They are our enemy.

    BTW my 2 American sleds run fine on E10, that slop’s been inflicted on that market for decades.

  34. Snoopy

    Manildra Group makes its ethanol from waste as part of an integrated manufacturing process at our Nowra plan

    In fact what the accompanying illustration shows is that Manildra simply diverts some starch derived from wheat flour to making fuel alcohol.

    What you and Manildra are claiming is that edible wheat flour is made into inedible starch which is then made into alcohol and stockfeed. It’s lies. There is no ‘waste’.

  35. Neil

    In fact what the accompanying illustration shows is that Manildra simply diverts some starch derived from wheat flour to making fuel alcohol.

    No. Some of the starch produced is not of a high enough grade to be sold to humans. Manildra uses this waste starch to make ethanol. The leftovers are then used for stock feed. So nothing is wasted.

  36. entropy

    Neil:

    Yes and in the process of making the starch from wheat some of the starch is not of a high enough grade for human consumption. It is this waste starch that Manildra uses to make ethanol.

    Yes that is mostly right, depending on your definition of ‘waste’.

    Because of the government mandate forcing the fuel companies to use Manildra ethanol, the starch gets made into ethanol at a better profit for manildra than it would be if used for stockfeed, pharmaceuticals, construction materials etc. The market is diverted into a product that Manildra can then charge a higher price that it would get for unmandated ethanol or any other product manildra would otherwise use the ‘waste’ starch for. It isn’t as though it wouldn’t get used.

  37. Bruce of Newcastle

    Yes and in the process of making the starch from wheat some of the starch is not of a high enough grade for human consumption. It is this waste starch that Manildra uses to make ethanol.

    Exactly what I said at 10:22. If they didn’t make ethanol from it then all of it would go to stock feed – and eventually become food for people rather than fuel for cars.

  38. entropy

    ‘waste’ starch made into unmandated ethanol makes $0.AX clear on the market.
    ‘waste’ starch made into stockfeed makes $0.AX+$0.BY clear on the market.
    ‘waste’ starch made into government mandated ethanol makes $0.AX+$0.BY+$0.CZ clear on the market.

    Makes extremely good sense from Manildra’s point of view.

  39. Paridell

    Is Sydney motorists buying more premium petrol than motorists elsewhere really down to a desire to avoid E10? Or is it that Sydney motorists tend to be better off than motorists elsewhere and simply choose to buy the premium fuel, whether E10 is available or not? “Designed in conjunction with Ferrari to clean your engine as you drive,” etc?

    E10 is open to criticism for diverting agricultural production into fuel, especially in the USA where they use maize. But here and in Brazil, sugar cane is used. Sugar is a food, but we are constantly urged to consume less of it, so its diversion into fuel can be seen as positive from the health point of view. Also on the positive side, growing cane employs a lot of people who would otherwise be forced off the land into the cities. Growing cane for fuel is a lifeline for a lot of rural people in poor states like Alagoas in Brazil.

    I have a Jaz which Honda says is designed for E10 and runs fine on it, or has done so far. I used E10 for many years in my 1995 Commodore, but in the end the fuel pump seized up and the NRMA blamed it on the E10. Now I use standard unleaded, also on their recommendation. I’ve had no trouble finding it in Sydney.

  40. entropy

    But here and in Brazil, sugar cane is used.
    Paridell, you should have read through this thread.
    The Sarina mill produces ethanol, the rest of Australia’s sugar mill’s aren’t properly set up for it. Most Australian ethanol that isn’t imported comes from Manildra who make it from the starch byproduct from wheat milling. It is a lot less ‘environmental’ than sugar, which is borderline anyway provided you can make a profit from it.
    While most Australian sugar mills are quite old, and expensive to convert, Brazilian sugar mills were set up from the start as dual purpose sugar/ethanol, and can switch between the two purposes. In any case in recent times the relative price of sugar is better than the price of ethanol.

    The bulk of brazilian sugar is vertically integrated so don’t romanticise it please.

  41. Far Right Heretic

    @Neil

    Helps with our energy self sufficiency

    If we want energy independence then we could start drilling the oil off the coast of newcastle or under outback south australia.

    Be aware that 94 unleaded is E10 masquerading under a different name. I try to buy all my fuel from BP who seem to be the highest quality but also don’t seem to stock E10. I don’t know how they get around the law or whether they just eat the fines because bothering with E10 would cost more in lost profits. BP also has the best opening hours, a lot of them do coffee and their staff are Australian, not underpaid and overworked foreign students abusing their visas.

  42. Ethanol. Gawd. Why not another superphosphate bounty? Birds must be going to the toilet somewhere. We could employ hundreds of rock scrapers. Green jobs!

    Or what about another round of ceiling insulation? That fluffy Chinese stuff installed under Rudd must be getting pretty thin. Green jobs!

    Or why don’t we just use the ethanol to burn money in big drums? The pensioners could gather round on cold nights and sing some of Mike Baird’s favourite hymns.

    To help with energy self-sufficiency we have centuries of premium coal, not to mention huge reserves of uranium along with the geological and political stability to become a nuclear powerhouse. South Australia can do what France does without having to play hard ball geopolitics in Africa. The uranium is right there, duh. The stable place to locate generation and waste are right there, duh.

    Think South Australia won’t have stupendous gas and diesel bills when it can no longer bludge coal power from the Vics? Think anyone will want to “sustain” those rickety wind turbines in fifteen years time?

    To run cars, we have imported petrol. Those who use their domestic resources wisely can afford to import what they like. We import the cars, why not the fuel? And if the fuel is ethanol free, we get more use out of those imported cars.

    And we won’t even have to invade Mali.

  43. Habib

    We used to export motor spirit, avtur and diesel until moronic policies and union extortion made refining here untenable. Only imported heavy crude, as local wells only produce light. Governments have been fucking with petroleum products while robbing the sector for decades, going back to the fiasco of unleaded fuel. I don’t know why oil companies even bother with this dump, minimal margins while being shaken down and pushed around shows incredible tolerance for abuse.

  44. JohnA

    All the stuff I have seen online about 91/95/98/100 octane says
    a) the octane rating is a measure of resistance to pre-ignition for higher compression engines and therefore a manufacturer design decision, so go with the handbook recommendation
    b) nobody but nobody can explain what additives are used in Australia as octane enhancers, apart from E10.

    Ethanol is pure alcohol (the same stuff that SHOULD prevent you from getting behind the wheel if you have .05% to .08% in your bloodstream) and acts as an octane enhancer.

    However, it is hygroscopic which means it can absorb and hold water in your fuel tank and thus could worsen your fuel consumption and performance – pushing water into the combustion chamber. As the Yanks say YMMV – your mileage may vary.

    Other permitted enhancers are other alcohols in the same chemical group, as per this old paper from around the year 2000 (PDF 146Kb) on the Fuel Quality Standards part of the Federal EPA site.

    It seems that those are the ones used in 98/100 PULP fuels but I can’t confirm that so far. Bruce, are you better placed to update the information in that paper?

    I have been running my 2005 VZ Commodore Equipe with the Alloytec-2 engine in Melbourne as a sales vehicle for the last 6-7 years on E10. The handbook says it’s OK to use E10.

    It’s now a private vehicle and I am over 300,000kms from new. My comparison over that time has been that I get the same economy from 91 RULP and E10. Until recently, United Petroleum here was always 4c/l cheaper on E10 than RULP, but now they have dropped back to 2c/l cheaper. The subsidy police must have got to them.

  45. JohnA

    Habib #2222462, posted on November 29, 2016, at 12:47 am

    We used to export motor spirit, avtur and diesel until moronic policies and union extortion made refining here untenable. Only imported heavy crude, as local wells only produce light. Governments have been fucking with petroleum products while robbing the sector for decades, going back to the fiasco of unleaded fuel. I don’t know why oil companies even bother with this dump, minimal margins while being shaken down and pushed around shows incredible tolerance for abuse.

    Habib, they don’t bother.

    Refineries here are being shut down or converted to minimal output fuel production because they can build bigger, more efficient ones in SE Asia. I don’t think any heavy oils (lubrication grades) are produced from virgin crude any more for example, and I think Mobil has shut down their last grease kettle, and is now importing from Singapore.

  46. Mark A

    Might help to decide, The car I have in Europe is fine but I empty the fuel tank completely before I go home and refuel with petrol, on advice from the mechanic because it will sit there for months on end and he reckons it will collect water in the fuel tank with the ethanol mix.

    On the other hand my wife’s Subaru Impreza 2004 can’t use it
    A far as performance goes, from memory the difference in octane rating petrol-ethanol is about 30%
    so there is a degradation of performance

  47. wreckage

    Energy self sufficiency would be served by having domestic refineries. It is not served by an anormously expensive infrastructure that produces ethanol, which cannot be used as fuel to the fleet, and we cannot produce even a fraction of our fuel requirements from it. And you can’t get around that by stockpiling ethanol, it’s hydrophilic.

    So, no, ethanol is WORSENING our energy self-sufficiency.

  48. wreckage

    This guy thinks taking money out of the economy to throw at an inferior product in order to make a loss by forcing people to use something they don’t want is “VALUE ADDING”.

    Fuck. Me. Dead.

  49. egg_

    BTW my 2 American sleds run fine on E10, that slop’s been inflicted on that market for decades.

    Ran my LS1 on it for a decade, didn’t bother it, but the L76 hates it (despite reportedly tuned for E10).

  50. egg_

    The L76 is now running an L98 tune file (good for @290kW at the flywheel) with DOD deactivated, but it still hates E10.

  51. BorisG

    Ethanol fuel caused a conflict between venesuela and Brazil. Brazil runs all vehicles on ethanol because it is (or was) cheaper to produce but Chavez said it kills the poor.

    This is not only about sugar, for the same soil could be used for other crops.

    I guess it best to leave it to the market.

  52. rickw

    So why is Mike Baird ramming E10 down our throats when it doesn’t even do what it is supposed to do, and is incredibly unpopular according to the ACCC? I have no idea.

    I wouldn’t be putting any of that low energy content / hydroscopic shit in my tank!

  53. Ragu

    I was told that the engine management will learn a certain fuel over time

    VVT units are very sensitive. You can even kill your car changing from 91RON to 98RON all of a sudden.

  54. Ragu

    Well, eventually. Modern cars don’t like going from low octane to high and back again repeatedly.

  55. duncanm

    It is rent seeking – nothing else.

    not to mention huge reserves of uranium along with the geological and political stability to become a nuclear powerhouse. South Australia can do what France does without having to play hard ball geopolitics in Africa. The uranium is right there, duh. The stable place to locate generation and waste are right there, duh.

    This is an ongoing bee in my bonnet which will trigger a rant from me to anyone who’ll listen.

    We have the makings for a nuclear powerhouse in Northern SA that could drive the early energy intensive stages of mineral processing, particularly Bauxite, of which we also have an abundance, to provide the world with cheap steel and Aluminium.

    Shit, we’ve even got a pre-contaminated zone (thanks to the Brits) we can put waste in.

    But do we ? No. We build some retarded windmills instead.

  56. MD

    So why is Mike Baird ramming E10 down our throats when it doesn’t even do what it is supposed to do, and is incredibly unpopular according to the ACCC? I have no idea.

    I suggest you do a search with these words ‘Manildra Baird’. I think you will find the answer you are looking for.

  57. mundi

    Don’t believe the government.

    My care was designed for 91 unleaded. It says it all through the manuals, its what the manufacturer says.

    Yet the government keeps ramming down my throat that my car is ‘fine’ to use with E10.

    Even if it was, I would not buy it out of principle.

  58. Neil

    Exactly what I said at 10:22. If they didn’t make ethanol from it then all of it would go to stock feed – and eventually become food for people rather than fuel for cars.

    I doubt we have a shortage of feedstock in Australia. Anyway after the starch is used is still ends up as feedstock.

    The waste from ethanol production is turned in to a protein rich livestock feed that supplements the diet of hundreds of thousands of cattle in Australia, New Zealand and the international marke

    Ethanol production is a win for Australia. It reduces our fuel import bill, helps with energy self sufficiency, provides employment in Nowra, provides a value added product.

    There is also next generation ethanol production being researched. This uses cellulose to produce ethanol. Cellulose is the most abundant stuff on earth. You can use newspapers, cardboard, leaves, twigs etc to provide the cellulose to make ethanol.

  59. M Ryutin

    I just cant believe that it took until MD a while ago to target the real reason wh M<anikldra and its owner have survived as this near-monopoly supplier of ethanol: Money. Big money to the liberal party of NSW and federally and it has covered before and after the god-botherer, Baird era. But only Baird has gone so far as to prepare to ruin small country service stations with Draconian fines (huge money I believe) for non-compliance in stocking a fuel that they just cannot sell let alone afford to store

  60. Crossie

    Is this a case of a Liberal Government turning Green or is it a Liberal Government being captured by the Greenfilth embedded in the public service who suggest such policies. Either way, the swamp needs to be drained.

    Baird is an incipient dictator. He believes he knows best about everything. Personal choice, the cornerstone of liberalism, just doesn’t come into it. And you’re right – he’s to the left of Labor. Just like with Turnbull, he’ll go at the bottom of my ballot sheet at the next election, right next to the greens.

    And just like Turnbull Baird knows he is on the nose in the Greater West of Sydney and only appears at events in the city. He is ceding his majority at the next election to Luke Foley who probably can’t believe his luck. There is no way Baird can rehabilitate himself before the voters, Liberals will have to do to him what the Nationals did to Troy Grant and soon.

  61. lotocoti

    Ethanol production is a win…

    Neil may very possibly be Bob Katter’s press secretary.

  62. duncanm

    Neil

    I doubt we have a shortage of feedstock in Australia. Anyway after the starch is used is still ends up as feedstock.

    There is also next generation ethanol production being researched.

    its the vibe, mmmkay ?

  63. Mark A

    Neil
    I doubt we have a shortage of feedstock in Australia. Anyway after the starch is used is still ends up as feedstock.

    Perpetum mobile!
    That starch must be made of the legendary magic pud.
    Extracting all that energy from it and it’s still is a “protein rich livestock feed ”

    What’s your job at Manildra then Neil?
    Give it a rest and keep out of the realm of fantasy.

  64. Neil

    Extracting all that energy from it and it’s still is a “protein rich livestock feed ”

    Yes. Starch is a carbohydrate made of glucose, a sugar. Proteins are made of amino acids and are not used to make ethanol.

  65. Up The Workers!

    Sounds to me as though this Baird in New South Obeid is following exactly the same plan that made Victoriastan Premiers, Ted Bailed-Out and Dennis Nap-Time, what they are today – UNEMPLOYED!

    Goldman Sachs’ Mal Jellyback in Canberra is also singing from their hymnbook – when he isn’t sleeping on the job or impersonating Leftards.

    The Laberal Party is a joke. In New South Obeid, they appointed I.C.A.C. (apparently some drinking club of old Labor appointees) to “investigate” stories of corruption concerning the local A.L.P. franchisee, “Honest Eddie” Obeid, and all that happened was that I.C.A.C. bounced Laberal Premier, Fatty O’Barrell, out of HIS job over an alleged graft bottle of plonk.

    Obeid, like Juliar, like Bruce Wilson, like Craig Thomson, like all those “persons of interest” at T.U.R.C., still roams the streets.

    Any chance we can get an “I.C.A.C.” to investigate all the selectively blind, deaf and bent Labor-appointed “I.C.A.C.s” and “I.B.A.C.s” around the country?

  66. Megan

    Ethanol production is a win for Australia. It reduces our fuel import bill, helps with energy self sufficiency, provides employment in Nowra, provides a value added product.

    Not one of which happens if nobody is buying it. Such a clever boy – someone must have taught you to parrot nonsense a very young age.

  67. Bruce of Newcastle

    There is also next generation ethanol production being researched. This uses cellulose to produce ethanol. Cellulose is the most abundant stuff on earth. You can use newspapers, cardboard, leaves, twigs etc to provide the cellulose to make ethanol.

    Neil – Cellulose presently must come from arable land. That could be used for food production. You can also use cellulose (and lignin) to produce electricity. The biofuelers push that. The following article is from Saturday:

    Surprise! Greedy Green Energy Corporatists are Clear Felling Protected Forests for Biomass

    the Guardian has just noticed that a rise in demand for wood chips, for “green” biomass power schemes, has led an increase in logging, including legally dubious clearances of large swathes of protected forests.

    I think it is a huge irony that in Tassie and southern NSW the Greens used to frantically oppose wood chipping for paper production but now seem to give wood chipping for electricity generation a free pass.

    I think we should indeed use waste material to produce electricity, but the environmentalists always seem to oppose waste incineration. Waste incineration and electricity co-generation would also reduce landfill requirements, which are increasingly hard to manage in our NIMBY world.

  68. Mark A

    Neil
    Yes. Starch is a carbohydrate made of glucose, a sugar. Proteins are made of amino acids and are not used to make ethanol.

    I leave the chemistry to BoN, but with my limited forays into home brewing I thought sugar was the main ingredient to produce alcohol?

    Anyway, my point was, in case you missed it, that you can’t just go on extracting valuable material from a substance and still retain the same valuable substance. Yes you can have a usable residue but it’s not of the same value as the original.

  69. duncanm

    Neil,

    all you need to know can be found in this Gov’t paper:

    The Conclusion (LCOF = levelised cost of fuel):

    • By 2020, several emerging technologies are expected to be available at lower LCOF than currently available petroleum fuels. None of these low LCOF alternatives fuel technologies have been implemented yet in Australia with the exception of LPG and CNG.
    • Some renewable technologies such as sugar/starch or natural oil-derived fuels or solar conversion fuels, are expected to have LCOF values that are marginally competitive with petroleum fuels by 2050.
    • Natural gas and coal-derived fuels technologies offer the lowest LCOF over most of the projection period and they remain cost competitive with the lower cost renewable technologies out to 2050, if carbon pricing or cost of carbon capture is not included in the LCOF estimates.

  70. JohnA

    Mark A #2222549, posted on November 29, 2016, at 8:11 am

    Neil
    Yes. Starch is a carbohydrate made of glucose, a sugar. Proteins are made of amino acids and are not used to make ethanol.

    I leave the chemistry to BoN, but with my limited forays into home brewing, I thought sugar was the main ingredient to produce alcohol?

    Anyway, my point was, in case you missed it, that you can’t just go on extracting valuable material from a substance and still retain the same valuable substance. Yes, you can have a usable residue but it’s not of the same value as the original.

    Mark, in your verbal stoush with Neil, are you reading what you write?

    You are actually in agreement or, at worst, talking past each other. Neil said that the protein NOT used in extracting ethanol is the usable residue which is then used elsewhere as stock feed.

  71. Senile Old Guy

    So why is Mike Baird ramming E10 down our throats when it doesn’t even do what it is supposed to do, and is incredibly unpopular according to the ACCC? I have no idea.

    Mike Baird is the greatest living enemy to freedom in Australia. This must stop.

    It’s not E10 that’s killing them, it’s the infiltration of green zealots, leftist imbeciles, and halfwitted bullies into the Liberal and National parties. Baird is a perfect example of an ugly, irrational composite of all three despicable and dangerous factions. They are our enemy.

    I am from NSW and usually vote LNP but Mike Baird is a %$#$$%$$#.

    He is a totalitarian dictator. I am stunned and amazed at what he has been allowed to get away with.

  72. struth

    Enough resources in this country to make us a world super power just by using a small percentage of it, and yet, here we are.
    NSW has always been the “trial state”.
    Knowing NSWelshmen have a penchant for taking it up the freckle from government, more than those from other states, all draconian totalitarian regulation is pushed in through the back door which is NSW.
    It is not very often a greyhound racing type pushback occurs, and even then, they will now regulate that out of existence , so it will still happen , just slower.
    If Baird had got away with it, the other states would have been right there “bringing into line” with other states, and greyhound racing would be gone and the land it sits on sold by government.
    The same with this ethanol routine.
    NSW is now too “multicultural” to be united against government about anything, and as one in three households there use English as their second language, most don’t even really know what’s going on.
    This will soon be nation wide.

  73. Robbo

    “But I strongly suspect that every time the people of Western Sydney fill up their tanks with expensive premium petrol, because there is no ULP available at their local service station, they think small curses at the Baird government.”

    Those small curses will turn into votes for anyone but the Liberals at the next NSW election. No one should be surprised that Baird is a tosser who will lead his Party back to the Oppostion benches. He learnt his politics at the feet of his father Bruce and he was just as unimpressive. Huge on ego and low on talent. Why is NSW saddled with such appalling MPs on all sides of its Parliament?

  74. Mark A

    JohnA
    You are actually in agreement or, at worst, talking past each other.

    You are right, possibly the second option, my point was that the original material contained more nutrients than the residue and therefore was more valuable as livestock feed without processing than the two resulting components ethanol+residue after processing, taking into account the labour and energy involved + all the other costs. Am I wrong on that?

    If so I was talking rubbish, sorry.

  75. Senile Old Guy

    Why is NSW saddled with such appalling MPs on all sides of its Parliament?

    It is not just NSW. It is the West, hence the Trump.

    Baird is a perfect example of a career politician, a breed which is increasingly common in the West. People who have, for their entire life, trained to run other people’s lives. Look at the US Presidential election where the people were being given a ‘choice’ between candidates picked by the Democratic and Republican party machines, with the added bonus that the Democratic candidate was being aided and abetted by the corrupt MSM.

  76. Tel

    However, it is hygroscopic which means it can absorb and hold water in your fuel tank and thus could worsen your fuel consumption and performance – pushing water into the combustion chamber. As the Yanks say YMMV – your mileage may vary.

    If you drive regularly and you are cycling through fuel then although the ethanol does grab water it won’t add up to any significant volume because the tank is mostly sealed and whatever water does get in will pretty soon be pushed out through the engine. In many ways that’s BETTER than having a high octane fuel that rejects water and thus little beads of water start to build up in the corners of the tank with no way for them to escape.

    I can understand people want to avoid ethanol just sitting around in the tank for months during shipping, thus having time to collect a significant amount of water.

    The real problem is that ethanol itself doesn’t burn as well as octane. Modern vehicles have strict fuel efficiency standards imposed on them and if the manufacturer designs towards E10 they will get shitty stats compared to their competitors designing towards higher quality fuels.

  77. Neil

    Baird is a perfect example of a career politician,

    I thought Baird was in banking before he entered parliament? He is doing a good job compared to the previous Labor govt. There are cranes everywhere in Sydney. he got it wrong on Greyhound racing which has been rectified.

    Neil – Cellulose presently must come from arable land. That could be used for food production

    Cellulostic ethanol uses waste material such as newspapers, cardboard, bark, leaves, twigs etc. The land has already been used to produce this material. You do not need any extra farmland. Believe it or not paper is a polymer of glucose like starch but we cannot digest it like starch. But you can make ethanol from waste paper.

  78. Another way to save petrol is to dig up Central Sydney so commuters who really need to get to Fox Studios or the race track on a wet Tuesday night in winter will be able to go there on an actual tram.

    And – you never know – the tram might even run on to Eastgardens and Meriton’s development of the old British American Tobacco site.

    Sure it’s going to cost and be a bit inconvenient. Maybe very. Sure some small businesses will go under. Maybe a lot of them. But it’s not like you can run trains under the ground. Or that you’d just want to transport people back to their boring old homes…on a wet Tuesday night in winter.

  79. Rebel with cause

    You certainly wouldn’t use E10 if you want decent mileage.

    I’ve found for our vehicles (late 2000s models), 95 octane seems to be the sweet spot. 98 doesn’t seem to much improve mileage, while regular unleaded I found mileage was not as good so worth paying a bit extra for premium.

  80. duncanm

    If you drive regularly and you are cycling through fuel then although the ethanol does grab water it won’t add up to any significant volume because the tank is mostly sealed and whatever water does get in will pretty soon be pushed out through the engine. In many ways that’s BETTER than having a high octane fuel that rejects water and thus little beads of water start to build up in the corners of the tank with no way for them to escape.

    yeh – but the other question is “how well is the water content controlled at the pump?”

    Sure, if I suspect I’ve got water in my tank, I’ll pop in a cup of meths to mitigate damage, but if you’re a fuel supplier or retailer, it makes economic sense to let the ethanol absorb as much water (free volume) as possible.

    So you’re not buying petroleum + ethanol. You’re buying petroleum + ethanol + water

  81. duncanm

    Neil – you keep arguing ‘waste’ as if it magically creates free ethanol — but the cost of producing ethanol from those waste products still exceed the cost of petroleum-based fuel.

    That waste is much better used in things like co-generation plants to produce electricity – as Bruce has mentioned.

  82. Senile Old Guy

    I thought Baird was in banking before he entered parliament?

    Born in 1968, started in politics in 2007, age 39. Before that a student and in investment banking. I stand corrected.

    He is doing a good job compared to the previous Labor govt.

    Damned by faint praise. Anyone who can’t do better than a Labor government is not trying.

  83. Bruce of Newcastle

    Cellulostic ethanol uses waste material such as newspapers, cardboard, bark, leaves, twigs etc. The land has already been used to produce this material. You do not need any extra farmland. Believe it or not paper is a polymer of glucose like starch but we cannot digest it like starch. But you can make ethanol from waste paper.

    I’m an industrial chemist Neil.

    If you do an energy balance you’ll find that the economics of combusting that material for electricity production will be vastly better. Ethanol production loses energy in several steps: the conversion efficiency, the distillation (and I’ve thermodynamically modelled an ethanol distillation column for work), the drying (since the distillation product is an azeotrope) and the distribution. Then the efficiency in an engine isn’t very high. If you go direct to combustion in a modern supercritical plant (eg cogeneration with coal) you’ll potentially get efficiencies around 45%, maybe a bit less.

    This is one reason why the CO2e efficiency of US corn ethanol production is so poor. There is too much energy lost in all the steps. And cellulosic ethanol has been a fizzer so far – though as an R&D guy I believe it will eventually work. But whether it is even worth doing is a good question since the whole ethanol thing is about anthropogenic global warming, which is completely undangerous based on the empirical climate sensitivity data.

  84. Neil

    Neil – you keep arguing ‘waste’ as if it magically creates free ethanol — but the cost of producing ethanol from those waste products still exceed the cost of petroleum-based fuel

    Maybe so. I am using the word “waste” in the context that you do not need any extra farmland to make ethanol.

    Manildra makes starch from wheat for various purposes. The starch comes out in various grades of quality. The stuff of not high enough grade for anything is used to make ethanol. I am not sure what they used to do with the low grade starch. They may have just dumped it in the Shoalhaven river.

    Cellulostic ethanol uses waste paper, cardboard, junk mail etc. Once again no extra farmland is needed.

  85. BoN;

    Personally I choose to go to the few remaining service stations that provide ethanol-free ULP and fill up with that. But I buy premium ethanol-free petrol when I get stuck in a servo without ordinary ULP. I do that because I would be a hypocrite if I used biofuel.

    I always use Premium Ethanol Free in the 380 because whilst it costs 10% more, I get 15/20% better consumption and smoother acceleration.

  86. Tater;

    Is this a case of a Liberal Government turning Green or is it a Liberal Government being captured by the Greenfilth embedded in the public service who suggest such policies.

    Any political movement is ripe for invasion and subversion into a Marxist Front Party. That’s precisely what the Left do. They did it with the Libertarian movement, and they’re doing it with the Liberals. I know it’s an unpopular thing to say, and I’ve been roundly abused by Libertarians on this site, but that is what has happened.

  87. egg_

    The real problem is that ethanol itself doesn’t burn as well as octane. Modern vehicles have strict fuel efficiency standards imposed on them and if the manufacturer designs towards E10 they will get shitty stats compared to their competitors designing towards higher quality fuels.

    +1

    God knows how the L77 allegedly copes with E85 (perhaps better than E10, as it can detect that it’s ‘full strength’ alcohol?).

  88. Whether the potential of newly found oil reserves (eg Brazil offshore, Alaska Arctic shore, US shale, Israeli shale etc etc) is exaggerated or not, it’s pretty clear that there is a lot of oil available about the world, even if at a higher price point than the Saudi product.

    If someone comes up with a bright idea for better or cheaper liquid fuels that’s fine. We can leave the oil in the ground the way we left whalebone and whale oil in whales. Until then, just use the oil.

    Australia’s business is to get rich on the back of its coal and nukes, which can only put downward pressure on oil while reducing oil consumption (eg no hyper-expensive emergency diesel required for SA).

    If we use the wealth acquired through thrifty and efficient exploitation of our own resources to buy champagne or jellybeans or petroleum from overseas…that’s what you get to do when you are rich.

    Like Iago said, put money in they purse.

  89. egg_

    i.e. E10 is virtue signalling.

  90. egg_

    The L77 has been dropped in favour of the LS3, which doesn’t run DOD at all.

  91. Neil

    We can leave the oil in the ground the way we left whalebone and whale oil in whales. Until then, just use the oil.

    Why does Brazil use so much ethanol? I actually do not know but i will have a guess which could be wrong. Brazil uses ethanol because they have an abundance of sugar cane and cannot afford to import oil.

  92. Rococo Liberal

    Any political movement is ripe for invasion and subversion into a Marxist Front Party. That’s precisely what the Left do. They did it with the Libertarian movement, and they’re doing it with the Liberals. I know it’s an unpopular thing to say, and I’ve been roundly abused by Libertarians on this site, but that is what has happened.

    There is something to that. But I think the real issue is much more simple.
    Politicians are there to govern. For many years now governing has meant constantly ‘doing things’. It’s not enough to just administer what we already have; government has to grow, because without that growth the public servants and the politicians have no real metric of success. It doesn’t matter if the programs they come up with work or not, because the attention span of the political class (MSM and the politically active) is really short, and the public en masse are not that interested.
    The oteeh thing that governments on both sides do is believe that if they put in policies that appeal to voters on the other side, then somehow they will capture those voters. This never works. Most swinging voters don’t actually care about green policies or market reform. They care about boring economic issues and government services.

  93. duncanm

    egg,

    E85 is has its benefits — much higher octane, so you can advance timing, turn up compression / boost, etc.

    Completely shit fuel consumption – and ironically, this helps for power output, as the extra fuel cools the intake charge more, particularly on turbo engines.

    You can easily get 30% more power on E85 out of a turbo engine when re-tuned for it.

  94. duncanm

    Why does Brazil use so much ethanol? I actually do not know

    so go and do some fucking research. It’ll take you 5min on wikipedia.

  95. Bruce of Newcastle

    Why does Brazil use so much ethanol? I actually do not know but i will have a guess which could be wrong. Brazil uses ethanol because they have an abundance of sugar cane and cannot afford to import oil.

    Neil – That’s correct. But it never had anything to do with global warming. E10 use in NSW is entirely about global warming politics. Since there is very little AGW and since what there is of it is harmless the use of ethanol is not morally justified.

    If ethanol use in NSW was a strictly commercial equation it would attract the same excise that ULP does. At the moment it gets a 37 c/L free kick.

    Keep in mind that excise is not a tariff – it is a tax to pay for road maintenance. Thus ethanol for use in on-road vehicles should be taxed in exactly the same way.

  96. egg_

    E85 is has its benefits — much higher octane, so you can advance timing, turn up compression / boost, etc.

    Yes, that’s why I suspect that the Gen IV LS engines run sh1te on E10 – they’re designed for E85.

  97. Far Right Heretic

    Both Turnbull and Baird were investment bankers….I am starting to see a pattern here.

  98. Rob

    New car buyers need to have a vehicle’s fuel needs front of mind when making a purchase.
    Only after making a purchase can the owner can do his own trials to determine the performance using various “optional” fuels. Presumably, if performance doesn’t vary much, the fuel cost per kilometre will dictate which fuel will be commonly used.
    As for engine damage, owners won’t know about that until it occurs.
    Be wary, be very wary.

  99. classical_hero

    Ethanol is an idea so stupid only n intellectual would believe it.

  100. “Brazil uses ethanol because they have an abundance of sugar cane and cannot afford to import oil.”

    Brazil uses gasoline and ethanol. Being the sugary place it is, it produces a lot of ethanol both for domestic consumption and for export. The country has found it worthwhile to adapt its system to high proportions of ethanol in fuel, despite many ups and downs in the supply and technical areas. The development of flex fuel vehicles has been handy, since it allows for choice in the event of another spike in ethanol prices. Good luck to them.

    Australia’s main game is to be a coal and nuclear powerhouse. I’d like to say good luck to us, but coal and nukes are almost dirty words in Australia. Or “durrrdy”, as Julia would say. Which shows how infantilized and fetishistic we have become thanks to Big Green and our appalling media.

  101. Diogenes

    A colleague pointed me at this…

    A green start-up technology company has surprised scientists by producing a biofuel from old rubber tyres that can run turbo-charged diesel engines while reducing emissions by 30 per cent.

    Green Distillation Technologies (GDT) can produce 3,000 litres of bio-oil from one giant seven-tonne mining truck tyre.

    It hopes to increase production to more than 8 millions litres annually by mid-2017.

    “We tested the oil which GDT produces from both recycled natural and synthetic rubber tyres in 10 per cent and 20 per cent diesel blends,” Mr Hossain said.

    The experiments were performed with constant speed on four different engine loads with surprising results — no loss of engine performance and a massive reduction in emissions.

    QUT’s Professor Richard Brown said they found a 30 per cent reduction in nitrogen oxide which helps to create petrochemical smog.

    “There was also a reduction by a third in particle mass. It works well,” he said.

    “It is a fuel that is as good as or better than normal diesel … made from old rubber otherwise destined to rot as landfill.”
    GDT said the oil could also be used as a heating fuel or further refined into an aviation jet fuel.

    It also recycles 100 per cent of every tyre, reselling the carbon and steel by-products.

    “We have zero waste from the tyre,” Mr Bayley said.

    GDT was the first Australian company to win the prestigious Edison Award, that honours global innovation, for leading the way with biofuels.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-28/new-life-for-old-tyres-as-biofuel/8064350

  102. Tator

    Just had a look at the Brazilian program. They have a e25 mandated for their fuel. But in Brazil, the percentage has varied over the years depending on the price of oil compared to ethanol.
    This has led to the development of Flex fueled vehicles becoming predominant in Brazil which can run on anything from neat ethanol to E0 unleaded petrol. In comparison with the US biofuel scheme, the Brazilian one is based on sugar cane which is a native crop and is twice as productive as the US scheme and has a energy balance of 8.3 to 10.2 compared to the US’s 1.3 to 1.6 ratio of energy in/energy out.

  103. Myrddin Seren

    From a profile on journalist Sharri Markson – which has now been dropped in to the memory hole by the Media Party since Sharri became a non-person:

    I found out the state government had decided to ban regular unleaded petrol in a deal that would see massive profits go to the state’s sole ethanol supplier, Manildra, and petrol prices ultimately rise.

    I worked on the story for three months and eventually managed to get confidential Cabinet documents that confirmed the whole deal. It was embarrassing for the Premier, Barry O’Farrell and he back flipped, changing the law a week later. The story won a Walkley award.

    So if everything is kosher and above board, why did the O’Farrell government walk back on the deal ?

    The NSW Liberal Party is essentially controlled by lobbyists. The two 900 lb gorillas are Michael Photios and Nick Campbell – who put aside whatever their factional differences were and are now in business together – both the lobbying business and the controlling the NSW Liberal Party monkey business.

    Your guess is as good as mine as to whether Mike Baird pushes his Doctor’s Wives agenda because:

    he is naturally a Green by ideology but the Liberal Party is not as Stalinist;

    he is a total puppet of Photios and Campbell;

    like apparently most of the political class he has his snout buried in the trough and a bank account in Switzerland a la Graham Richardson; or

    all of the above ?

    Like most of these political decisions these days – at its core it is about skinning ever greater amounts of wealth from ordinary consumers and taxpayers and streaming the flow of money upstream to the powerful and well-connected.

  104. Michael L

    Manildra is above party politics. At the relevant time, it owns them all.

    E10 in NSW was introduced by Labor. It ticked the “gr” boxes, green and greed. Green to “solve” global warming / come climate change, and greed to satisfy the mates at Manildra.

    When the Libs got in under O’Farrell, 2 matters were legislated almost straight away – the mate’s deal with Manildra and the mates’ deal with the multitude of small developers of sub standard home units – the reduction of suing time from 7 years to 2 years.

    Now Manildra Mike (mate of Mark) has not only set E10 “in concrete” but has criminalized those who don’t quite sell it in the correct manner.

    The term which applies to all of us, also alliterates with Mike – we’re Mike’s Mugs!!

  105. Neil

    E10 use in NSW is entirely about global warming politics

    Perhaps the farmers get some extra money? Manildra uses waste starch that would normally be dumped. Perhaps the farmer gets some extra money for his wheat if is used for ethanol production?

  106. duncanm

    Thus ethanol for use in on-road vehicles should be taxed in exactly the same way.

    good point — a nice rejoinder to whack the Green idiots over the head with every time they scream ‘mining subsidies’

  107. OneWorldGovernment

    MD
    #2222525, posted on November 29, 2016 at 7:11 am

    I suggest you do a search with these words ‘Manildra Baird’. I think you will find the answer you are looking for.

    I suggest you do a search on “Manildra Howard” if you want to track down another Howard sell-out.

  108. egg_

    Guest Post: Bruce of Newcastle E10 is quietly killing the NSW Libs

    Kudos.
    (Miss your daily headlines).

  109. egg_

    Your guess is as good as mine as to whether Mike Baird pushes his Doctor’s Wives agenda because:

    Dirt file, Labor style?

  110. Vicki

    Actually, I suspect that most of those Western Sydney drivers filling up with premium fuel when ULP is unavailable are actively avoiding petrol with ethanol content because they believe that it may damage their engines over a period of time.

  111. Neil

    I suggest you do a search on “Manildra Howard” if you want to track down another Howard sell-out.

    It was the NSW ALP that introduced E10 into this state. I think the main reason some people on this blog are against ethanol is because it is mandated.

  112. Cradock's Choice

    Manildra uses waste starch to make ethanol which would be dumped otherwise. So i think it does help the farmers. Nothing is wasted in the production of starch. The starch unfit for human consumption is used to make ethanol.

    What a load of nonsense.

    The other name for this is ‘stock feed’.

    manildra is a rentseeker’s sponge to soak up taxpayer money in teh form of subsidies.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  113. Neil

    What a load of nonsense.

    The other name for this is ‘stock feed’.

    In the production of starch some is degraded. It is produced in several grades. The lower quality starch unfit for human consumption is used to make ethanol.

    Why is what i say nonsense? The starch has already been extracted. What is left after extraction is used for stock feed. I guess they could add the lower quality starch back to the protein enriched residue rather than make ethanol from it. But the residue is used for stock feed after the starch has been extracted.

    What is your point?

  114. Bruce of Newcastle

    Cattle feeders would fall over themselves to buy a cheaper starch/protein stockfeed.

    They feed cows with broken biscuits and unwanted lollies for example.

    It’s been going on for a while – I recall seeing a fascinating Landline story about a dairy farmer who started to feed cattle with confectionary and built up a business as a result.

  115. Neil

    Cattle feeders would fall over themselves to buy a cheaper starch/protein stockfeed.

    Not sure what your point is. To make starch which is used in a variety of things you need to extract it from the wheat. When this is done Manildra uses the residue for stock feed.

  116. classical_hero

    Because ethanol is using food for fuel. It doesn’t matter if it’s human food or animal food, it’s still food, one way or another. It’s immoral to use food for fuel.

  117. Bruce of Newcastle

    Neil – My point is if the below human quality starch product is not converted to ethanol it would be easily saleable for stock feed. The demand is there. Then the calorific value of the starch would be used for beef and dairy production rather than wasted in the form of ethanol and process losses. (Indeed, I would be interested where the energy comes from for the distillation plant, since unlike the US producers they don’t have surplus maize stalks available to fire the boilers.)

    The lower grade starch product would not be ‘dumped … in the Shoalhaven river’ as you surmised. That would not ever happen anyway. Effluent BOD is a serious issue that the NSW EPA will come down on you like a tonne of bricks if you exceed the limit.

    The fuel ethanol industry in Australia would disappear overnight if the global warming scam died the death that it should. It would disappear overnight if it was treated the same way as hydrocarbon fuels in terms of taxes and excise. It would disappear overnight if E10 wasn’t mandated with the threat of massive fines.

  118. Rayvic

    As use of E10 petrol causes failure of 4-stroke lawn mower engines, it is difficult to see how car engines would escape damage from E10 use.

    By heavily restricting the provision of regular unleaded petrol, the major petrol retailers are making a killing by ‘forcing’ E10-disliking motorists to buy higher-margin premium unleaded petrol.

    As Bruce of N points out, there is no scientific or economic justification for the Baird Government to mandate provision of E10.

    Yet another example of Baird Government incompetence.

  119. Rayvic

    “Is this a case of a Liberal Government turning Green or is it a Liberal Government being captured by the Greenfilth embedded in the public service who suggest such policies. Either way, the swamp needs to be drained.”

    Baird has form in turning Green, e.g. providing ‘open season’ for surfer-devouring sharks in northern NSW; and in capitulating to the animal rights people by banning the greyhound racing industry.

  120. Neil

    Neil – My point is if the below human quality starch product is not converted to ethanol it would be easily saleable for stock feed.

    Be interesting to find out what they did with it before they started making ethanol. They may have just buried it. Or they could have added it back to the residue left after extracting the starch for human use. Also i have no idea what percentage of the starch is degraded in making starch. It may be 80% or as low as 5%. If only a small percentage is degraded it may not be worth the effort to add it back to the residue.

    The fuel ethanol industry in Australia would disappear overnight if the global warming scam died the death that it should.

    Maybe so but not in Brazil. Countries with little foreign exchange may find it better to make ethanol than to import petrol.

    The advantages for Australia is that it lowers our import bill, creates a value added product, creates jobs, gives us some energy self sufficiency in a fuel which could be useful if our sea lanes are cut, i suspect provides extra income for farmers, gives farmers a guaranteed market and most probably lots of others

  121. Tel

    If the E10 is destroying engines then it INCREASES our imports because we don’t make engines in this country.

    Maybe government should pay unemployed people to stick fruit up their coit; it would also create jobs and give a guaranteed market for the farmers. It would be the first economic recovery driven by silly buggers.

  122. Bruce of Newcastle

    Maybe so but not in Brazil.

    I agree Nick, but few countries have the combination of circumstance which Brazil has – they have much more cane growing land than the sugar market could bear. Especially with the sugar mafia “fighting obesity” these days. And there’s only so much rum that you can drink! (I’ve some Caribbean heritage…).

    For Australia we have a fairly limited acreage which is suitable for cane growing. That area is in competition with other uses like bananas and pineapples. Our wheat and grain-crop acreage is heavily restricted by water availability. It just does not make sense for us to have a local fuel ethanol industry. If we must have the stuff it is already cheaper to bring it from Brazil.

    Brazil is the lowest-cost ethanol producer.[70] Hence, in economic terms, Australia should import ethanol from Brazil rather than try to produce it domestically.

    But other options like coal-to-liquids would build on our local competitive advantages, if ever the bloody Gaia worshippers can be booted from the corridors of power in this country.

  123. hzhousewife

    Maybe government should pay unemployed people to stick fruit up their coit

    I heard on the wirelss tonight that the government wants diabetic people to stick fruit in their gobs because scurvy! Unbelevable, diabetics won’t eat fruit because sugar/bad, so get scurvy !!!

  124. JohnA

    Rayvic #2223130, posted on November 29, 2016, at 7:13 pm

    As use of E10 petrol causes failure of 4-stroke lawn mower engines, it is difficult to see how car engines would escape damage from E10 use.

    You would have to examine the actual reason for failure in a small engine, and see if that would translate to larger engines.

    My first thought is that ethanol the solvent is aggressive against valves and seals, so small engines with incompatible seals (eg. rubber instead of neoprene) and non-hardened valves would be most likely to fail.

    But as I said earlier, the decision to allow for E10 fuel is made by the engine manufacturer at the design and build stages. You may find that recent owner manuals for 4-strokes are clearer about not using E10.

  125. Neil

    Our wheat and grain-crop acreage is heavily restricted by water availability. It just does not make sense for us to have a local fuel ethanol industry.

    You obviously have not read/understood or believed a single thing i have said. Manildra uses waste starch which does not compete with human food or animal feed.

    http://e10thegoodfuel.com.au/how-we-make-e10/

  126. classical_hero

    Neil, if you look at the graph you can see that if you take out the ethanol plant you get stock feed. Calling it “waste” is a misnomer.

  127. Yohan

    Mike Baird epitomizes Liberal Party leftism. All the state and federal Liberal party governments are now like this. They want to signal moral virtue and show how caring and progressive they are too.

    These people need to be fucking destroyed. Vote One Nation, Shooters and Fishers, Lib Dems, anybody, anybody…

  128. Neil

    Neil, if you look at the graph you can see that if you take out the ethanol plant you get stock feed. Calling it “waste” is a misnomer.

    You are as dumb as BoN. The starch is extracted from wheat and used for various purposes. What is left is used as stock feed. The way Manildra makes ethanol does not compete with human food or animal feed.

  129. Bruce of Newcastle

    Neil – Come on now, no ad hominems. The point remains – the byproduct starch material that is feed to the ethanol plant is capable of being stock feed in itself. If the fermentation residue is stock feed grade then the original material is stock feed grade.

    Again it is slightly harsh to describe me as dumb since I could design and build an industrial ethanol plant from scratch. I’ve designed many industrial processes. I also know an economic decision when I see it. But like wind turbines those process economics go bad just as soon as the enforced market goes away or if the preferential treatment goes away.

  130. Neil

    – the byproduct starch material that is feed to the ethanol plant is capable of being stock feed in itself. I

    Is it? Perhaps so but i do not know what Manidra did with their degraded starch before they used it to make ethanol. It makes sense that they could have added it back to the protein enhanced residue. But they may have just dumped it as it may have been too much of a hassle to add it back to the residue.

  131. Bruce of Newcastle

    Is it?

    Yep. That is why yesterday I linked the stock feeds produced from surplus confectionary – ie lollies. Starch is polymerised sugars, confectionary is sugar. If cows thrive on the latter (as the linked articles say they do) they can likewise thrive on the former. They certainly do on grain, which is where the starch product came from originally.

    The simple answer is that ethanol sells for a higher price than stock feed. But the profitability disappears as soon as standard excise is applied to the ethanol and the E10 mandate is removed. Then the size of the market will shrivel – which is the point of my article: the comparison between fuel consumption preferences of Sydney drivers and those elsewhere in Australia show that E10 is not liked, and a small discount is not enough to cause people to willingly buy it. So they get their arm twisted by Nanny. As soon as Nanny stops twisting their arm the market will collapse.

    Mr Trump is about to demonstrate this in the US with his global warming policies. Any corporation whose business model requires forced markets, and taxpayer subsidies, will go under when those are removed.

  132. Neil

    Yep. That is why yesterday I linked the stock feeds produced from surplus confectionary – ie lollies.

    You missed my point. The degraded starch my be useable (we do not know) but it may not have been worth the hassle to add the degraded starch back to the protein residue. Manildra may have just dumped it before they started making ethanol.

    We also do not know what % of the starch is degraded.

    But if it helps our farmers that is another reason for mandating ethanol. I get the impression that farmers like the security of having ethanol production as a backup for their wheat production. If they have wheat they cannot sell they could always use it to make ethanol.

  133. classical_hero

    Neil, you’re simply arguing in bad faith.

  134. Bruce of Newcastle

    But if it helps our farmers that is another reason for mandating ethanol.

    Neil – Mandating ethanol doesn’t help the farmers, it just makes them uncompetitive and dependent.
    You do no favours to farmers this way, since when (not if) the climate scam collapses all those inflexible and dependent farmers will go bankrupt.

    The same was attempted with the wool reserve price scheme which collapsed in 1991. Likewise the ‘wine lake‘ and ‘butter mountain‘ in the EU.

    This sort of thing doesn’t work. Trying it again over and over is both futile and harmful to the poor farmers who’ve been made the victims of fickle government.

    If you want to help farmers – educate them! Help them to be flexible in cropping. Alert them to trends in product demand, planning and technical advances.

  135. Neil

    You do no favours to farmers this way, since when (not if) the climate scam collapses all those inflexible and dependent farmers will go bankrupt.

    Not really. We are relying more and more on imported petrol. Every litre of ethanol produced in NSW by Manildra means less petrol we have to import saving foreign exchange and helping our balance of payments.

  136. Bruce of Newcastle

    Neil – That is easily fixed as I mentioned above. Remove the restrictions on oil and gas exploration. Encourage coal-to-liquids conversion. That then provides local crude oil to be refined to petrol, which is much cheaper than ethanol or would be if ethanol was levied the same rate of excise.

    Government fiat is the only reason why local ethanol is economic. Indeed imported Brazilian ethanol would be cheaper than locally produced ethanol if the government allowed it in, as I likewise linked above. So if government fiat presently makes ethanol economic and bans petroleum and gas exploration then future government fiat can make ethanol uneconomic again (which it inherently is) and reinstate petroleum and gas production. In that case the farmers no longer can supply the suddenly shut down ethanol plant and they go bankrupt. Thus goes government fiat.

  137. duncanm

    Maybe so but not in Brazil. Countries with little foreign exchange may find it better to make ethanol than to import petrol.

    this is just not true.

    Even with Brazil’s world-best efficiency in ethanol generation, it only survives due to tax differentials between petrol and ethanol and government mandate.

  138. duncanm

    Neil,

    go back and read the paper referenced above (LCOF).

    BON is being amazingly tolerant – you are just trolling.

  139. .

    Not really. We are relying more and more on imported petrol. Every litre of ethanol produced in NSW by Manildra means less petrol we have to import saving foreign exchange and helping our balance of payments.

    Holy shit you are dumb. We have a floating FX rate and Manildra are grifters earning other’s tax remittances.

  140. classical_hero

    Manildra is certainly getting value for money. Even if enough Liberals dissented, Labor would support the measure since they have their snout in the trough.

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