Big business doesn’t need you

Scott Morrison was out and about today begging big business for help.

“I have raised consistently with large business representatives the need to address the broader collective reputation issues large businesses have with the Australian public that are being cynically exploited by an opportunistic Labor Party,” Mr Morrison will say.

“If such issues are not addressed then the casualty will be growth, jobs and the public services that depend on a strong economy.

“Large business needs to apply itself collectively and urgently to this task of communicating their value, not for the sake of the government, but in the interests of the Australian economy, their employees and their own shareholders.”

Mr Morrison emphasises that the Coalition understands that large businesses employ millions of Australians, which is why it took its enterprise tax plan to Parliament and secured “far more than our critics believed we would”.

“This task cannot be pursued by the government in isolation.

“Business has a critical role to play in demonstrating to the Australian people that as their business grows, their employees will benefit. And that job starts with the conversations they have in their own businesses.”

That’s from the AFR – so I thought I’d go have a look at Morrison’s media page for the full text of the speech. This is what I saw:

I reckon Morrison has even less self-awareness than Tony Abbott.

As far as I can see it’s not the Labor party that is rubbishing the reputation of big business. It is the government. Here is Morrison, in the same speech:

In the past year, we’ve continued to toughen up on multinationals. Australia now has some of the toughest laws in the world to combat multinational tax avoidance.

We’re making sure multinationals pay their fair share of tax so that Australian citizens get the tax from the profits earned in Australia, from Australian consumers, that is needed to fund vital infrastructure and services.

The Australian Taxation Office has today confirmed that measures including our Multinational Tax Avoidance Legislation will enable us to claw back around $2.9 billion in additional tax liabilities this year. The Government has also succeeded in legislating our Diverted Profits Tax, further preventing multinationals from shifting profits made in Australia offshore to avoid paying tax.

The Diverted Profits Tax commences on 1 July, and is conservatively expected to raise $100 million in revenue a year from 2018–19.

This comes on top of other moves to set up a Tax Avoidance Taskforce, increase penalties, and strengthen whistleblower protections which are expected to raise almost $4 billion over the budget and forward estimates.

He’s going around telling everyone that big business are tax cheats while asking the same people to sell his lacklustre economic policies.

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84 Responses to Big business doesn’t need you

  1. John Bayley

    Morrison is like his boss: An utter f*ckwit.
    The LNP needs to be wiped out, salted and plowed over.

  2. Tintarella di Luna

    Morrison is like his boss: An utter f*ckwit.
    The LNP needs to be wiped out, salted and plowed over.

    Please sir, can I bring the salt and help? if not can I just watch?.

  3. The Pugilist

    Large business needs to apply itself collectively and urgently to this task of communicating their value, not for the sake of the government, but in the interests of the Australian economy, their employees and their own shareholders.

    He does have a point. They need to stop focussing on all the ‘social licence ‘ , ‘corporate social responsibility’, ‘diversity’, etc. shit and get back to core business like returns for shareholders, customer service, etc.

  4. struth

    This task cannot be pursued by the government in isolation.

    Not this government.
    Pardon me.
    I thought it was a politicians job to argue for certain values.

    “I have raised consistently with large business representatives the need to address the broader collective reputation issues large businesses have with the Australian public

    Right here.
    Right here is elitism.
    So far removed from the people, he thinks the noisy minority in the MSM and other leftists, is the Australian Public.

    The Liberals are lost and doomed.
    Will they take us down with them?
    If we let them.

  5. Rococo Liberal

    The LNP needs to be wiped out, salted and plowed over.

    Is that so we can years of Labor fuckwits in power, you dick head.

  6. Rococo Liberal

    And learn how to spell plough, arsehole.

  7. struth

    I can just see Trump asking business to defend themselves
    It’s like asking the free market what’s on it’s mind..
    Sorry treasurer, but they are too busy trying to keep up with compliance and regulation and paying tax.
    Now you want them to do your job for you?
    Scum.

    Our treasurer is a fuckwit and the alternative will be worse.

  8. Libby Zee

    Watching Morrison begging, Gillards ‘clip that ticket’ speech came to mind, but with added desperation. Lots of desperation.

  9. Tintarella di Luna

    Is that so we can years of Labor fuckwits in power, you dick head.

    I certainly don’t want Labor but the Liberal party at the moment is not worth voting for, so a cackhanded coalition of anyone but Labor is better than the Liberal party.

  10. john constantine

    Crony big business needs mass importation of welfare dependant clients, Crony big business needs Crony big government and Crony big unions to crush agile and innovative small business, Crony big business thrives in the corrupt ‘pay-to-play’ kleptocracy that runs Australia.

    Crony big business thrives on subsidies, rorts, accreditation, compliance, barriers to competition, oligopolies, too big to fail taxpayer bailouts, mass importation of tenant herds to beat the housing cycle, trillion dollar national debt to fuel consumption, Grim Reaper Electricity panics, and general leftist bastardry.

    Anti-trust oligopoly busting, spinning out efficient companies from social justice corruptocracy dinosaur companies, chopping ‘too big to fail’companies down to bite size–all immediate requirements to halt the Zimbabweization of australia.

  11. Tintarella di Luna

    Our treasurer is a fuckwit and the alternative will be worse.

    Sad but true, I hope trapdoor britches will not be needed, the last thing we need is Labor in power, the thought of Bill Shorten as Prime Minister chills my kidneys.

  12. john constantine

    Crony Big Business can see the eternal shortfilth regime looming, pay to play means backing the Strong Horse.

    Why make the turnfailures last months comfortable, when their lefts executioners are already making lists of tories to put up against the wall after the revolution?.

  13. Muddy

    The LNP needs to be wiped out, salted and plowed over.
    Is that so we can years of Labor fuckwits in power, you dick head.

    I don’t often resort to name calling, but what exactly do you propose, retard? Do you have any answers, anything to contribute, or would you prefer we continue to tolerate our great nation being shredded by the mediocre pissants that have brought it practically to its knees?

    Either get in the ring or stay at home with your knitting. You people annoy the fuck out of me.

  14. struth

    Crony big business needs mass importation of welfare dependant clients, Crony big business needs Crony big government and Crony big unions to crush agile and innovative small business, Crony big business thrives in the corrupt ‘pay-to-play’ kleptocracy that runs Australia.

    Crony big business thrives on subsidies, rorts, accreditation, compliance, barriers to competition, oligopolies, too big to fail taxpayer bailouts, mass importation of tenant herds to beat the housing cycle, trillion dollar national debt to fuel consumption, Grim Reaper Electricity panics, and general leftist bastardry.

    Anti-trust oligopoly busting, spinning out efficient companies from social justice corruptocracy dinosaur companies, chopping ‘too big to fail’companies down to bite size–all immediate requirements to halt the Zimbabweization of australia

    Nigel Farage rightly calls this corporatism.
    There is nothing wrong with big business.
    It is only when it deals with corruptible institutions we get problems.
    Like government.
    If the government was not corruptible, big business would not be able to corrupt it.
    So what is worse, no big business due to it being blamed for paying to play, (and other regulatory favours etc) or we blame those that take the money, and still have big business, but it playing on a level playing field?
    Corporatism is the enemy.
    It is a problem caused by corrupt governance.

  15. struth

    So Muddy is rococo Liberal as well?

  16. H B Bear

    Morrison is a lightweight. Just like the Performing Stick Insect, Chrissy Payne and Waffles himself. The only possible argument for keeping them on is that the Liars will be worse – by an order of magnitude.

  17. teddy bear

    Two petty jabs at Abbott in one day, sinc is on fire.

    Either your getting increasingly scared of an Abbott return before his potential greatness can reach his potential of peak waffliness or there is something you and Savva aren’t telling us.

    Also clearly you haven’t been paying attention to anything Labour have said about big business, because if you had you would find them to be running an even more anti big business, pro government agenda. At least Morrison and also Dutton have called for big business to focus on what they do instead of social nonsense.

    But then you are a supporter of much of that nonsense so I guess this article makes sense.

  18. struth

    Muddy the liberals are a left wing socialist party.
    Labor is a communist disaster.
    All should now be salted from the earth.
    There are some right wing alternatives on the horizon.
    Liberals are not our only choice.
    Let he who hath entered the ring, cast the first stone.

  19. john constantine

    If their team turnbull coalition wins the next election through feckless fluke, they will forgive big business that backed the filth, and they will appoint filth to really nice jobs.

    Once Australias Greatest Hater, the shortfilth wins, he will drag out all his long lists of non-persons to crush and the purges of Stalin will seem like kindergarten bullying in comparison.

    Who do you expect Crony Big Business to fall in line with?.

  20. pbw

    Rococo Liberal,

    Tony Abbott wouldn’t spell it plowed.

  21. The only possible argument for keeping them on is that the Liars will be worse – by an order of magnitude.

    ALP back in power is powerful argument for getting out of this country

  22. Cui bono

    Well what have the business lobby been doing? There are a lot of them…..directors of government relations and such. Sure the actual guys running the companies should focus on that but these others, the lobbyists and PR knobs. How about getting your hands dirty guys. Muddy’s right.

  23. Roger

    I reckon Morrison has even less self-awareness than Tony Abbott.

    Your man picked him for the spot.

  24. Sinc, we asked for no more AbbottAbbottAbbott. That didn’t mean you should attribute the Libs’ dire probs to ScottScottScott as if he didn’t have a boss, and a particularly manipulative one.

    Watching you snipe at every Lib except the actual leader is a bit like watching NATO bomb around McCain’s White Helmets and “moderate” rebels.

    The Turnbull Spring is old and not getting better. One major reason is TurnbullTurnbullTurnbull – okay? This business of firing at his troops while deliberately missing the general is getting a bit lame.

  25. Infidel Tiger

    We need to get rid of big business.

    Big businesses thrive in heavily regulated crony capitalist economies.

    They need to be smashed.

  26. struth

    We really need you to come to grips with your wrongology Sinclair.
    Many of us here have been wrong, besides our constant wrongologist, rake boy.

    I was.
    I changed my mind regarding SSM.
    I started not caring if they married a hip height door handle, to understanding what this meant for our society.
    I changed my mind.
    I was wrong.
    You can admit it too.
    Because you have been so wrong about Malcom,
    Very wrong.
    And you know it.

  27. john constantine

    In australia, we have the absolute jackpot of crony socialism running big business, crony socialism running the public service, crony socialism running the dinosaur media, crony socialism running the unions, crony socialism running the big law firms, Stalinist transvestites running the school system, pyromaniac Stalinists running the electricity system and luddite Stalinists running the gas system.

    Just confiscate the guns, ban cash, absorb super, and compell the proles to attend conpulsory self-critique sessions before being allocated their rations.

    Might the country lose nothing by being burnt to the ground sooner rather than later?.

  28. Is that so we can years of Labor fuckwits in power, you dick head.

    Yeah.
    Vote Liberal ‘cos at least they’re not Labor.
    FMD. The stupidity it burns.

  29. Irreversible

    Morrison is a fine example of what’s wrong with political leadership. He has never been employed outside the public payroll. He has no interest in his current portfolio. And he thinks he can be PM if he just rolls everyone else.
    Turnbull should sack him. Then put Cormann in the job. Or possibly Angus Taylor, who talks himself up an awful lot. After a while I think someone effective will emerge, but first all the fatheads need a moment in the bright lights of reality.
    Kates for Treasurer: an ideal moment.

  30. Up The Workers!

    No surprises there.

    American writer, Oscar Ameringa once said:

    “Politics is the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich, by promising to protect each from the other.”

  31. Joe

    To stop Crony Labor – enforce the laws on bribery and extortion.
    To stop crony Corporations – we need to remove the right of corporations to own so called intellectual property. If such an oxymoron exists, it should be restricted to the persons who created the idea.
    To stop crony government – may require insurrection. Labor and Business cannot be fixed until government is fixed.

  32. C.L.

    We’re making sure multinationals pay their fair share of tax so that Australian citizens get the tax from the profits earned in Australia, from Australian consumers, that is needed to fund vital infrastructure and services.

    Oh please. What an embarrassing tosser. Sounds like Jim Cairns.

  33. BrettW

    From numerous posts by Sinclair one can not fail to come to the conclusion he has no problem with multinationals diverting their income overseas and paying minimal tax on huge income derived from sales or services provided to Australians within Australia. The fact that often such services are provided online (ie. Google, Facebook, Uber etc) in my humble opinion is irrelevant and good on the ATO in going after them.

    FB and Google for example are taking in significant income in advertising that would otherwise have gone to Australian businesses such as newspapers, or Sensis/Yellow pages etc.

    Todays Daily Telegraph mentioned seven of the worlds biggest companies (ie. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Rio Tinto and BHP) being hit with a combined $3 billion for unpaid taxes (ranging from $250 – 800m per company).

    No doubt when Amazon sets up in Australia and undercuts local businesses (ie. JB Hi Fi and Harvey Norman etc) and remits their profits to Luxembourg or Ireland etc Sinclair will be defending their right to avoid the appropriate taxes here.

    Go get them Morrison. The great majority of the public clearly supports the overseas multinationals being targetted.

  34. Oh please. What an embarrassing tosser. Sounds like Jim Cairns.

    Sounds just like little Johnny Howard explaining the need for retrospective legislation to tackle bottom of the harbour tax avoidance schemes.

  35. Andrew M.

    That’s okay. Maybe the future doesn’t need big business?
    https://youtu.be/_Kt7883oTd0
    Very interesting video on post-scarcity civilisation.

  36. JC

    We’re making sure multinationals pay their fair share of tax so that Australian citizens get the tax from the profits earned in Australia, from Australian consumers, that is needed to fund vital infrastructure and services.

    Rather than admitting that a decent slab of the welfare gig is up these guys are still chasing that ball around. It’s not going to work.

    There is an argument to so that Morrison is making a reasonable claim. Reasonable in the sense that it doesn’t cross logical boundaries.

    The case for a Google tax resembles the case made about transfer pricing. This is where multinationals invoice at a higher price in a high taxing country and the funds are repatriated to a low tax tax regime. Australia has a very well developed method of filtering a large part of this sort of thing, or at least the ATO does.

    It’s harder with the online business obviously.

    Now this is where it gets harder still. A lot of the firms are American and the Americans have a system where if a firm earns money overseas and doesn’t repatriate the funds there is zero US tax on that portion of the income stream that is earned offshore.
    Now any pressure that’s to be applied to these firms isn’t going to make any headway unless the big bull in the china shop (the US) is in support of Australia and others taxing these entities. The reason as I see it is that the US sees an opportunity at some stage to be able to tax these firms themselves and if Australia and others take a swag of the loot there won’t be any money for them. So the US is not going to support a google tax being imposed in Australia.

    The best solution, bite the fucking bullet and cut spending.

  37. Nov

    Read the articles, Brettw, and stop pedalling leftist bullshit.

  38. JC

    Go get them Morrison. The great majority of the public clearly supports the overseas multinationals being targetted.

    How do you propose we do that exactly , Rooster?

    I know you have great difficulty understanding computers and the online world because you’re still unable to use HTML. However, I’ll make it easy for you. Lets say you operate a business (yea, hard to believe seeing it’s you) and want to place an online Google ad. Presumably, at some stage, you’ve used google search and ads that may attract your interest show up at the top etc. So lets say you place an ad. There’s no physical transaction that takes place, in the sense that you’re buying goods or a service from an Australian entity and when you do a transaction their Australian domiciled revenue line goes up. That doesn’t happen in the Google example, because the entity you’re dealing with is in a low tax regime and the servers are also residing in a place that wouldn’t imperil their tax stance. So, how is Morrison going to go after them, Rooster? He would have to either go after them in Singapore or Ireland and front the courts there. Let me tell you what their courts would say to him. Fuck off!

    No doubt when Amazon sets up in Australia and undercuts local businesses (ie. JB Hi Fi and Harvey Norman etc) and remits their profits to Luxembourg or Ireland etc Sinclair will be defending their right to avoid the appropriate taxes here.

    That’s far different to the online world such as Google and Facebook, you quissling. I explained that earlier.

    The only way for Morrison to be able to tax these entities is if there is a G20 agreement to so and there’s zero chance the US would agree to allow other countries to tax their entities for the reasons I mentioned above.* My advice is the same as Nov, stop peddling leftist crap here.

    PS The US gets away with strong arming around the world because to their size. They’re the biggest tax bullies around, which is why tax haven status for tax avoidance has basically disappeared. The US threatens smaller countries with trade sanctions. If we did that, they would laugh at us.

    * It’s a form of ganging up, similar to the way you operate when you and a few other low IQ vermin gang up on people here and then pretend you’re innocent and bawl a lot when you receive a caning (as always).

  39. BrettW

    Nov,
    No idea how being happy about going after overseas multinationals who avoid tax makes me a leftist. On this subject that would probably make the majority of Australians”leftists”.

    JC,
    Thanks for explaining something I am well aware of. I appreciate the difficulties of going after the online businesses such as Google and FB but that does not stop me supporting anything the Government can do to get some revenue out of them as they are taking huge income out of the country. The matter was raised at the G20 in Brisbane a couple of years ago and I am all for countries looking into how to collect taxes in such situations.

    No idea why you mentioned your last para but just to remind you that you are the one with the long list of enemies on this blog. If I wanted to I am sure I could get involved in multiple fights here but I simply choose not to (you being the exception since you are such a troll). In your case you deliberately choose to engage in fights. When you stir up fights don’t be surprised when more than one person responds. You clearly are quite deluded when you think you are giving out “canings” here. All people see is you stirring up unnecessary angst.

  40. JC

    Thanks for explaining something I am well aware of.

    Stop lying. If you did in fact understand the model being discussed you wouldn’t come up with the leftist nonsense you have.

    I appreciate the difficulties of going after the online businesses such as Google and FB but that does not stop me supporting anything the Government can do to get some revenue out of them as they are taking huge income out of the country.

    First off, your support or lack of it makes no difference to this argument as no one cares.. Zip. Secondly it is impossible for the government to go after these firms because there is no platform to do so. The argument is the the same as me buying a good by contacting an overseas supplier, paying for it and then having it shipped here. The overseas supplier has absolutely zero liability moral or financial in paying tax to the Australian government because their revenue line went up. This is identical to the argument you’re putting up in hitting these firms, you clown.

    The matter was raised at the G20 in Brisbane a couple of years ago and I am all for countries looking into how to collect taxes in such situations.

    They won’t because the US will never support it.

    No idea why you mentioned your last para but just to remind you that you are the one with the long list of enemies on this blog.

    I don’t think so. In fact I’ve mentioned countless times that I would be happy to put myself up for exile against any of the fan club. The example was analogy of your behavior here and what you support in respect of going after these firms. It’s ganging up.

    If I wanted to I am sure I could get involved in multiple fights here but I simply choose not to (you being the exception since you are such a troll). In your case you deliberately choose to engage in fights. When you stir up fights don’t be surprised when more than one person responds. You clearly are quite deluded when you think you are giving out “canings” here. All people see is you stirring up unnecessary angst.

    Lol…Unlike you and the rest of the fan club, I always do the right thing and present an argument why your comment is worthless and why you’re a waste of space. An oxygen thief. You’re hardly popular here, Rooster. It’s almost a given your comments are either ignored or they’re attacked. See Nov above as an example of what I mean.

    You’re just useless here.

  41. Howard Hill

    I don’t understand the reasoning of these people that think we should tax companies that supply us goods from another country? I sell products overseas, America for instance. Money comes into Australia from America, I’m cutting into the profits of competing American companies. So in their warped reasoning I should be taxed by the American government? Have I got it right? Or is there some warped logic running through these empty heads that I’m missing?

    If a country is not making enough tax from it’s current base, then perhaps it needs to encourage more to start export businesses that operate out of its own shores. But these dickheads here will just continue to stand harder on anyone’s neck trying to do something, which then brings us back to, how do we fix this? John Constantine wrote: http://catallaxyfiles.com/2017/04/06/big-business-doesnt-need-you/#comment-2347506

    Oh and what’s the correct way to post a shortened link on this forum?
    The instructions are non existent.

  42. JC

    Money comes into Australia from America, I’m cutting into the profits of competing American companies. So in their warped reasoning I should be taxed by the American government? Have I got it right?

    Yep, that’s it. It’s a brazen attempt to steal money.

    Or is there some warped logic running through these empty heads that I’m missing?

    None really.

  43. bushwalker

    “Large business needs to apply itself collectively and urgently to this task of communicating their value, not for the sake of the government, but in the interests of the Australian economy, their employees and their own shareholders.”

    How ignorant can a treasurer get? The above statement is Swanesque.

    Listed companies put out a “sustainability report” every few years to address exactly that problem. Mostly it’s a separate document to the annual report because it’s too long to fit in the AR which is already over weight with the “remuneration report”.

    Morrison is really getting the hang of being in a government of the “sensible centre”.

  44. Senile Old Guy

    The LNP needs to be wiped out, salted and plowed over.

    Is that so we can years of Labor fuckwits in power, you dick head.

    Vote LNP because at least they are not ALP. Simple tribalism. The LNP under Turnbull has been appalling; voting them back in will not make them change; voting them out, might (although they will probably respond by going further left).

  45. Senile Old Guy

    Yep, that’s it. It’s a brazen attempt to steal money.

    Or is there some warped logic running through these empty heads that I’m missing?

    None really.

    Exactly. The government is broke and too spineless to cut spending so it is desperately hunting for a money tree to plunder. If the government had a currently legal way to get more tax from these companies, it would be doing it. It isn’t, so the companies have no legal obligation to pay more.

  46. King Koala

    Money comes into Australia from America, I’m cutting into the profits of competing American companies. So in their warped reasoning I should be taxed by the American government? Have I got it right?

    Yes, you should. There is no such thing as a free market if different entities in competition with each other have to play by different rules. Companies in America are forced to pay taxes which pushes up their price and you not paying that tax gives you an unfair advantage.

    I appreciate the difficulties of going after the online businesses such as Google and FB but that does not stop me supporting anything the Government can do to get some revenue out of them as they are taking huge income out of the country.

    A 10% fee on all money moved offshore to be collected by financial institutions would be a start. This includes paypal and all other online payment services. Then waive the GST for people paying by paypal etc. A 10% fee for all money going offshore would make a fairer playing field for the financial sector in Australia vs places like the Cayman Islands. This would of course never get through parliament because greedy bastards like Turnbull want to stash their millions offshore while screwing over the economy for everyone who cannot hide their money offshore.

    From numerous posts by Sinclair one can not fail to come to the conclusion he has no problem with multinationals diverting their income overseas and paying minimal tax on huge income derived from sales or services provided to Australians within Australia. The fact that often such services are provided online (ie. Google, Facebook, Uber etc) in my humble opinion is irrelevant and good on the ATO in going after them.

    Exactly, and it is attitudes like that that make people view immigrants as parasites. No doubt if Australia started tanking Sinc would be on the first plane out.

  47. Texas Jack

    The fundamental problem is that nobody on the right save Eric Abetz has the balls to stand tall in the LNP joint party room and in front of TV news cameras and demand they hold some sensible lines on policy around social and cultural matters. Mediawise, it is only Bolt and the guy from Speccie, Latham, Piers and Devine and a few like-minded souls that try to hold back the relentless PC tide without great success. Thus, business is continually trapped, captured by boards laced with those of iffy politics who want to deviate from focus on profitability, that long derided critical element in sustainable economic progress, to focus on virtue signalling and coolness on the latest i-phone app. The only way to fight this is with some principles around culture that you’re prepared to die in a ditch for, today, tomorrow, for all time. Otherwise the field of this battle is left vacant, the PC-Left to run rampant.

  48. Boambee John

    john constantine at 0830

    + one million.

    Crony capitalism in Australia gets back in regulations to crush potential competitors a major share of what it pays in company tax.

    Restricting the company tax reductions to smaller businesses gives them at least some help to overcome the barriers that government, big business and unions raise against them.

  49. herodotus

    Voting Labor only works in the rare event that there’s a modicum of sense in the mix. There were some passable people there in the 1980s, but not so far this century. If 2007-2013 weren’t enough to warn you off that course I don’t know what is.
    Injecting some backbone into the limp left leaning Libs might work, but given the state of the party it’d have to be done via cross-bench or coalition conservative elements.

  50. Boambee John

    Doomlord

    There is little doubt that many on tha Coslalition front bench are duds.

    That said, perhaps we should pay attention to an old military aphorism.

    “There are no bad troops, only bad officers.”

    Who is the senior officer in the government?

  51. Tel

    Thus, business is continually trapped, captured by boards laced with those of iffy politics who want to deviate from focus on profitability, that long derided critical element in sustainable economic progress, to focus on virtue signalling and coolness on the latest i-phone app.

    I think the problem is bigger than that… you need to go back to basics. Let’s look at how a small business works: you own the business, you work in the business, you hire a handful of people, and you take any profits left over, or you roll some of that back into the business for capital upkeep, etc. So if the owner screws up, the owner loses profits. If customers get annoyed and walk away, there’s immediate feedback. If you do something exceptionally careless you get sued and probably get personally sued and you are in a very vulnerable situation.

    Now compare that to a modern corporation. It has shareholders, but not individual shareholders, most of the shareholders are funds, often Super funds, or index following funds that are largely detached from anything that happens in that business. The actual “owners” of the business are the individuals who’s money goes into that Super fund and how far removed are they?

    [1] Individual worker gets taxed to pay into Super fund
    [2] Super fund buys indexed fund
    [3] Indexed fund buys standard set of shares
    [4] Shareholders vote for board of directors
    [5] Board selects CEO
    [6] CEO actually gets involved with running the company.

    Then there’s a bunch of things protecting everyone in the middle from any consequences. Firstly the limited liability, which allows this type of situation to exist in the first place, but then there’s automatic protection that the CEO is merely an employee like any other, and can always say, “Well I did my best” and that’s all there is to it. If the business suffers a fine (like some of the fines issued against some banks recently) that fine really is paid by the individual worker at step [1] but the payment only becomes visible in 20 years at retirement and even then has been obscured by a whole bunch of other ups and downs in the meantime.

    The Super fund managers basically concentrate on filling in compliance forms all day, they can’t be blamed for buying an index fund, “everyone knows” index funds are safe.

    The index fund is what it is, never pretended to have a brain in the first place.

    Now the shareholders voting is interesting because none of the real “owners” of those shares ever get a vote and a lot of the funds often vote in support of existing management, plus they may have other policy factors like “Sustainability Policy” or whatever has political flavour this week. The connection between these votes and the people paying into the fund is very tenuous indeed. The lists of votes do get published, and people can (sometimes) change to a different Super fund if they don’t like the policy, but going through it with a fine tooth comb to figure out what’s going on is very difficult. There’s no actual discussion of individual actions, no explanation, it’s not anything like a normal election.

  52. thefrolickingmole

    Big business doesnt need to give a crap, whatever new compliance is brought in is $00.001 to the cost of a shitload of items and it strangles competition in the crib.

    Big business loves big government.

  53. H B Bear

    Big business loves big government.

    Yep. Throw in Big Union, Big Law, Big Accounting, Big Super and you are starting to get the picture.

  54. Habib

    Why would any sentient thing want to assist someone who robs and bullies it? Anyway, most of the CEOs are too busy working on their outfits for next year’s Mardi Gras. This country is doomed, and the sooner it collapses under the weight of its own inanity the better.

  55. john constantine

    Come their trillion dollar shortfilth regime, Cronies will fall in line and support bill, in the hope he will purge somebody else first, not them.

  56. Jonesy

    The Liberals are beyond saving. They have become infested with leftie politicos that have never held a job since leaving uni. The only chance of saving the farm is to get into the PHON party and route the ratbags to make it mainstream right of centre. Pauline is well meaning but she is putty that can be easily molded by a convincing argument. She cannot tell if she is being sold a pup.

    Seriously, Photius and his ilk are stacking all the blue ribbon seats. It will take a tactical nuke to unseat them. They follow the same mantra as Liebor…whateve it takes, whatever you have to say, outright blatant lies, anything!…inner city westies..upper class bogans!

  57. BrettW

    Apologies but I forgot to acknowledge the traditional owner of the blog last night. I forgot how he is always right and realise that any post by me on any subject will “trigger” him.

    Nevertheless still more than happy if the ATO can find a way to tax more out of Google and Facebook etc.

  58. JC

    Apologies but I forgot to acknowledge the traditional owner of the blog last night. I forgot how he is always right and realise that any post by me on any subject will “trigger” him.

    If I were the owner of this blog you and a few others would be kicked off this site fast than light speed.

    Nevertheless still more than happy if the ATO can find a way to tax more out of Google and Facebook etc.

    Of course you would. I was never in any doubt, you useless specimen. Just useless.

  59. DM OF WA

    H B Bear
    #2347846, posted on April 7, 2017 at 9:15 am
    Big business loves big government
    .

    Never a truer word written.

  60. Boambee John

    If business executives want to be SJWs let them pay social justice tax rates.

  61. BrettW

    So not only am I a “leftist” but a “useless specimen” just for expressing the opinion that Google and Facebook should pay more tax.

    Pretty sure the “pub test” would show my thoughts are mainstream but clearly the Troll knows better.

  62. Habib

    Why should anyone pay more tax? It’s already among the most usurious in the world, and most would be better used as a source of warmth in winter by just throwing green beer vouchers onto the flickering embers of economic and personal freedom in this paragon of profligacy. No-one pays too little tax, except the net recipients of tax, who effectively pay negative amounts. Anyone who promotes further tithing should be loaded into a trebuchet and fired into a stone wall at very close range.

  63. rickw

    ScoMo is as dumb as dog shit, like most Australian politicians.

    This folks is real life Idiocracy.

  64. Stan

    It is clear that Scott is just doing what his boss is telling him to do.

  65. Tim Neilson

    From numerous posts by Sinclair one can not fail to come to the conclusion he has no problem with multinationals diverting their income overseas and paying minimal tax on huge income derived from sales or services provided to Australians within Australia.

    They are not “diverting” their income overseas. The world’s tax treaty system has operated since the 1920’s on the basis that income gets taxed where the productive work is done, and Google, Amazon etc. do virtually nothing in Australia. The OECD is looking at changing that, but until they do, Australia’s “fair share” is zero. The USA is very lax about taxing non-US income of its companies, which is what the real avoidance is about, but that’s their business, no-one else’s.

    The fact that often such services are provided online (ie. Google, Facebook, Uber etc) in my humble opinion is irrelevant and good on the ATO in going after them.

    Just shows your total ignorance of tax law. (Apart maybe from uber but the tax that’s being dodged there is by the drivers, not the overseas internet providers, so you’re still wrong.) The whole reason this is happening is because business that used to be done by a local branch can now be done remotely. It’s been well known since the 1980’s when the fax machine started the trend. The OECD decided in 2000 not to do anything about it, but with the EU collapsing under its own profligacy they’re desperate for revenue and are casting about for victims.
    We can, if we wish, unilaterally tax on the basis of where the product is delivered and consumed, but once we set that precedent, the rest of the world will do it back to us, and China will cut our balls off via taxes on our miners.

    FB and Google for example are taking in significant income in advertising that would otherwise have gone to Australian businesses such as newspapers, or Sensis/Yellow pages etc.

    Oh, FMD, and car companies are taking revenue that would otherwise have gone to true blue Aussie farriers and blacksmiths.

    Todays Daily Telegraph mentioned seven of the worlds biggest companies (ie. Google, Apple, Microsoft, Rio Tinto and BHP) being hit with a combined $3 billion for unpaid taxes (ranging from $250 – 800m per company).

    First, the ATO can issue assessments but the companies can dispute them. The ATO doesn’t always win. At present this is in the Goose Swansteen “the budget surplus I’ve announced tonight…” league.
    Secondly, have you any idea what a tiny percentage of the revenue of a company like BHP or Rio this represents? Yes, they’ve got a disagreement with the ATO about pricing, but the “range” of a normal valuation done by a valuer on any asset would be way outside the range of disagreement between BHP/Rio and the ATO on this.

    No doubt when Amazon sets up in Australia and undercuts local businesses (ie. JB Hi Fi and Harvey Norman etc) and remits their profits to Luxembourg or Ireland etc Sinclair will be defending their right to avoid the appropriate taxes here.

    Once again you display your colossal ignorance. Amazon hasn’t “set up” here to any degree that matters, and it won’t, because if it did it would be obliged to pay tax here. Luxembourg, Ireland etc. are all about its US tax position. And that should be the US’s business only. It’s true that when they do their US tax avoidance they have to do it in a way that lands them into Australian tax, but if we start grabbing for the revenue, do you think they’ll let us have it or retreat to the USA and hand the cash over to Trump? They know which side their bread is buttered on.

  66. Tim Neilson

    a way that lands them
    “a way that doesn’t land them” – apologies.

  67. Howard Hill

    King Koala wrote:

    Yes, you should. There is no such thing as a free market if different entities in competition with each other have to play by different rules. Companies in America are forced to pay taxes which pushes up their price and you not paying that tax gives you an unfair advantage.

    What kind or warped reasoning is this? I pay taxes here on the profits I make whether I sell into my own country or another. How do I have an advantage? You would have me at a disadvantage by making me pay tax twice.

  68. BrettW

    Tim,
    All very interesting but I am still in favour of Amazon, FB and Google etc being taxed notwithstanding they operate online.

    I guess all those articles in past couple of months about Amazon setting up physical shops in Australia are a sign of my colossal ignorance. Good to know your expert opinion is that it is not going to happen. Harvey Norman will be relieved and can stop planning for it. Have you told Ross Greenwood it is not going to happen as he seems as ignorant as I am in thinking they are setting up shops here. Strange that it was being mentioned so often. I am relieved Amazon will heed your opinion and cancel their plans.

    Regarding Amazon I recall a UK article about their UK operations. Warehouses in UK shipping out the product to UK customers but invoices out of Luxembourg. Call me a leftie but I would actually prefer the high street shops paying rent and having more staff than an organisation that shifts the money to Luxembourg and pays virtually no tax.

    A simple Google search on Amazon UK tax reveals that in 2015 they paid 11.9m pounds tax on revenue of 5.3bn pounds on sales to UK customers. I wonder what amount of tax 5.3bn pounds would generate if spread amongst high street shops. Never mind the significantly more people those shops would employ. But hey, the tax experts here have no problem with that.

    Anything Morrison and ATO can do to get a fair share of tax from them is absolutely fine by me. I am certainly no expert on tax law but probably when most of it was written FB, Google and Amazon were not around. Time to re-write the laws so they are covered better.

  69. Empire

    FB and Google for example are taking in significant income in advertising that would otherwise have gone to Australian businesses such as newspapers, or Sensis/Yellow pages etc.

    If you honestly believe that the ad spend would remain constant and would be diverted to Australian advertisers, provide some evidence. I doubt you’ll find it.

    I appreciate the difficulties of going after the online businesses such as Google and FB but that does not stop me supporting anything the Government can do to get some revenue out of them as they are taking huge income out of the country. The matter was raised at the G20 in Brisbane a couple of years ago and I am all for countries looking into how to collect taxes in such situations.

    Oh dear. The source of all our problems is abuse of state power and the extent of that power, including the extortion (taxation) powers.

    Rather than focus on the problem (state spending) you propose the state go after them damn furriners and empty their pockets.

    You are part of the problem. I would say you are aiding and abetting the enemy, except FB and Google are the enemy, but not of the Australian state apparatus as it stands.

  70. JC

    Tim,
    All very interesting but I am still in favour of Amazon, FB and Google etc being taxed notwithstanding they operate online.

    Lol. Just useless. Totally useless.

    Now realizing he can’t make as case, Rooster goes for … But I still support it… line. As useless as a bull tit.

  71. BrettW

    Wow, this is truly an amazing thread. Now I am aiding and abetting the enemy and taxation equals extortion.

    I hereby acknowledge the right of multinationals to avoid paying as much tax as possible and divert their profits to Singapore or Luxembourg etc. God bless em.

    Please don’t send me to a re-education camp for expressing an opinion.

    How about some of the Cats in this thread start an online petition to express support for multinationals and their tax avoidance schemes and express disgust at Morrison for even thinking about it.

    (Minor note : I do agree there is considerable waste in how Governments spend their money).

  72. JC

    Wow, this is truly an amazing thread. Now I am aiding and abetting the enemy and taxation equals extortion.

    Sad. Put up an argument with a logical train of thought other than what you said earlier

    1. We should rip the money off them

    2. You support the theft.

    See also if you can convince anyone here. Suggesting that it holds support in punterland won’t work. Punterland also supports the death penalty and many other causes the elites don’t.

    While you here making a argument, you can also explain to the readership how you expect Australia to tax entities extraterritorially too.

  73. Tim Neilson

    BrettW, apologies (genuinely) that I didn’t make myself clear. I said Amazon hasn’t “set up” to any degree that matters. Shopfronts with “would you like fries with that” type staff will make a small profit that will be taxed here. They’ll buy stuff at full value from offshore and make a retail profit on their margins. As you will be aware, retail margins are not great and are getting worse. Bookshops go out of business because of the financial squeeze, as do many other bricks and mortar retailers. That’s not where the money is and Amazon knows it.
    The main game is the IP and that won’t come on shore. The real action is whether the Australian government can tax them on things that really aren’t here, i.e. the IP, and get away with it. They’re trying. The OECD has described it as “embarrassing” how Australia is trying a smash and grab raid while the rest of the world is trying to implement consensus amendments to the world tax treaty system to address tax rights allocation in a digital world.
    I wonder what amount of tax 5.3bn pounds would generate if spread amongst high street shops.
    Not much, because they’d get a deduction for the costs of buying the stuff that comes in from overseas.
    Time to re-write the laws so they are covered better.
    Be careful what you wish for because you might get it. See what I wrote above. If we impose income tax on the basis of consumption in Australia, without regard to tax treaties (and that’s what Morrison and the Termite are doing) what’s to stop our trading partners doing likewise to us, and if they do there goes our mining industry.

  74. BrettW

    Now the derangement gets better. Taxing multinationals fairly is now described as theft.

    Silly me, where can I sign up somewhere to some sort of elite club that supports multinationals who avoid paying their fair share of tax.

    I guess from the above we can take it that JC, Tim, Empire etc have absolutely no problem with Amazon paying 11.9m tax on revenue of 5.3bn pounds earned from sales in the UK alone. Never mind the many businesses they have undercut or put out of business to do it. That is just one example in one year.

    Trigger warning : Go for it Morrison !

  75. Cynic of Ayr

    I wish Turnbull and Morisson would make up their stupid bloody minds!
    “We want foreign investment! Please come here with your money!”
    Then…
    “Oh, you’re here! Now we change the rules. Because you are a mob of thieving bastards, and don’t contribute to the country – well, other than providing jobs, buying materials etc – go away.”
    Then…
    “Where did they all go? Was it something I said?”

  76. Tim Neilson

    BrettW
    #2348316, posted on April 7, 2017 at 4:47 pm
    How much is China’s “fair share” of the tax revenue from minerals they import from us?

  77. JC

    I guess from the above we can take it that JC, Tim, Empire etc have absolutely no problem with Amazon paying 11.9m tax on revenue of 5.3bn pounds earned from sales in the UK alone.

    So you’re saying that Amazon is breaking UK tax law, you uniformed plonker?

    Useless. Just useless.

  78. Tel

    Nevertheless still more than happy if the ATO can find a way to tax more out of Google and Facebook etc.

    OK, I don’t care about Google nor Facebook, and to be honest I also don’t care about their shareholders either even though most of those are pension plans and the potential victims are only guilty of believing in what they have been promised.

    The thing is that most of the money pouring into the ATO comes from Australians. If turns out to be easy to suck money out of foreign entities then no Australian should pay any tax… just move our entire tax base offshore and demand someone else pays. But you would think someone would have tried this long ago.

    Suppose the ATO effectively sets up a tariff between Australia and various foreign corporations (they wouldn’t call it that of course, because the ATO don’t pass laws, but since bureaucrats have enormous discretionary powers they can effectively create law by fiat and just call it “procedural” or something similar). The effect is felt somewhat by the consumer, and somewhat by the producer… depending on the stiffness of demand. In the case of search engines, there’s no Australian equivalent so you cannot substitute. Admittedly the advertising dollar could go to newspapers or radio but that’s not the same as a search engine. What’s more, once this kind of tariff wall is constructed, the other countries will do it back to us… and they won’t call it a “tariff” either, they will similar explanations, “Oh we need to make it fair, blah blah blah.”

  79. Tel

    I’m not even opposed to tariff’s in principle as a way to raise revenue, but if there’s going to be a tariff it should go through Parliament, and try to pass the Senate, not via the back door bureaucracy Fourth Branch of Government making up new rules.

    Also, our Government has a spending problem. Giving more cash to a problem gambler or a compulsive shopper won’t fix their habit. There’s never been a revenue shortfall from the ATO, plenty of revenue is coming in, just that the Commonwealth spends more. Until that’s fixed there’s no other choice but find every possible means to limit their resources.

  80. John Bayley

    @ Rococo Liberal (and a couple of others):

    I used to be a member of the LNP. That was while they still represented those of us who want to get up and make a go of it.

    As others have observed, the current Liberal party is nothing of the sort. Unlike you, I’m not a “rusted on” and will not blindly those who want to tax me even more than what I already pay, just because they’re not Labor. If it takes a term or two of ALP government, so be it. The voters of this country clearly need the lesson.

    If the LNP is annihilated, then hopefully something worthwhile can come out of its ashes.

    And RL, mate, don’t lecture me about spelling – you clearly can’t even spin a coherent sentence together.

  81. Norman Church

    Mr Morrison is not only a hypocrite, he is a bald faced liar. The latter charge is proved by his shameful assertion that he can do nothing about WA’s iniquitous GST distribution. This BS is not longer fooling the WA public and the Liberals will pay a price at the next election for their conduct.

  82. “He’s going around telling everyone that big business are tax cheats while asking the same people to sell his lacklustre economic policies.”
    Oops, yet another tone deaf Treasurer, ScoMo, mate of Fizza, the one that replaced JoHo, now the ambassador to the USA, mate of Tonicchio?
    Some stimulus to the economy from same sex marriage? Nope.
    The hunting around for more dollar grabs is ridiculous, given a transitioning economy (?), just go after anything religious. Nope.
    First split charity from religious divisions. Nope.
    Then tax the latter like any organisation. Nope.
    Apply proceeds of crime legislation to clusters of abuse … Nope.
    Cutting pollyTICal expenses/ entitlements would be another good place to start. Nope.
    Not that the other side of the aisle seems any more clear on policy, competency or services to be delivered.

  83. Pingback: Does This Look Like a Government That Had ALL it Could Eat? | Catallaxy Files

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