What is Laurie Oakes up to?

There is a very strange op-ed in the Herald Sun today by veteran political reporter Laurie Oakes:

IN a radio interview on Wednesday, Special Minister of State Scott Ryan was asked about the idea of rounding up people on ASIO’s radar as potential terrorists and locking them away in internment camps.

“Who’s saying that?” he responded. “I don’t think there’s a serious debate about internment.”

Listeners would have heard the astonishment in his voice.

“It’s happening on breakfast television and commercial radio,” explained the interviewer.

Ryan was clearly relieved by that, assuming it meant no one of significance was advocating such a radical action.

“They’re not decision makers,” he said.

But internment of terror suspects was first raised by retired Major-General Jim Molan in the Herald Sun the day before.

And Molan, with 40 years’ military experience, including as chief of operations in Iraq, and the brains behind the government’s successful “stop the boats” strategy, is very much a heavyweight.

He is an influential figure, particularly among Coalition politicians.

While many of us, like Ryan, might find it hard to accept that imprisonment without formal charges or trial should be contemplated, Molan’s involvement means the debate is off and running and has to be taken seriously.

Well, no. The only person now saying the idea of internment needs to be taken seriously is … Laurie Oakes. But why? I doubt he thinks it is a good idea.

Long, long before we start interning people at random to pander to paranoia there are other far more sensible ideas that could and should be adopted. For example, let’s prosecute people who commit actual crimes. Let’s take a long hard look at the bail laws. After all why should we intern people on the suspicion they may commit a crime when the legal system lets people actually accused of a crime walk the streets? Recidivists should not get bail at all. Let’s have longer prison terms for people convicted of crimes. Let’s have mandatory deportation for non-citizens convicted of terrorism related crimes. On this point I am somewhat unsympathetic to the government’s complaints that soft judges are over-turning deportation orders. Pass clear and unambiguous legislation if you want laws to be judge-proof. That means making more of an effort in drafting legislation.

In the meantime internment is a rubbish idea and it reflects poorly on Oakes that he didn’t just say so.

This entry was posted in National Security, Politics, Rule of law, Terrorism, Tough on Crime, tough on criminals. Bookmark the permalink.

126 Responses to What is Laurie Oakes up to?

  1. Herodotus

    Recidivists should be get bail at all.
    Needs editing.

    [Fixed. Thanks. Sinc]

  2. Herodotus

    Pass clear and unambiguous legislation if you want laws to be judge-proof. That means making more of an effort in drafting legislation.

    Does this mean you are in favour of mandatory sentencing? I don’t have a problem with that in respect of terrorism charges, but some will.

  3. Herodotus

    Internment bad, mandatory deportation for non-citizens ok.
    Yes, let’s skip the internment, but make the mandatory deportation much wider in application. Cancel their citizenship and then deport.

  4. Sinclair Davidson

    Does this mean you are in favour of mandatory sentencing?

    I’m not opposed to mandatory sentencing and to the extent that non-mandatory sentencing introduces arbitrary and random variation into the administration of justice it may be more appropriate than judge determined sentencing.

    If people don’t like the idea of mandatory sentencing then, in the first instance, parliament could raise the minimum sentences for various crimes.

  5. Infidel Tiger

    Sinc if you think Muslims are deterred by law and order punishment, you are crazy.

    Doesn’t matter how strict we are the weird beards will still bomb us.

    Internment makes great sense.

  6. Dr Fred Lenin

    During the second world war germans ,italians and japanese were interned ,and they had not engaged in terrorism , internment till they are deported with all their family members ,ab=nd forbidden re entry for life .

  7. Tel

    The only person now saying the idea of internment needs to be taken seriously is … Laurie Oakes. But why? I doubt he thinks it is a good idea.

    It’s called a “straw man” or in other words telling lies to put off your opponents from any real arguments.

    It’s old, and tedious, and I’m not at all surprised to see it keeps happening.

    How about we start by enforcing existing laws? If the Christians ever marched around with banners demanding beheading over an insult, suddenly laws would be enforced… so just apply that same strict rule of law to all the other religions and see how it goes. This is not a great intellectual challenge or anything.

    When an old man has sex with a young girl of 13 then we have a name for that, and we have laws against it. When the man says “but I married her” you say, “No you didn’t!” We had a huge Royal Commission and we caught a few Priests doing the naughty business, so just keep applying that exact same rule of law to ALL the religions. Yup, that’s right, all of them.

    Doesn’t require any special laws, just application of existing law. Very simple.

  8. iampeter

    This whole thing is even a question because our politicians are trying to fight the military threat of Islamic terrorism as if its a domestic law and order issue.

    This will never work.

    I agree with the overall suggestions in the original post but to actually end the threat of terrorism itself, not just treat symptoms, will take military action.

    And no one’s talking about that.

  9. Frank

    In the meantime internment is a rubbish idea and it reflects poorly on Oakes that he didn’t just say so.

    It depends on whether it would work or not as to how rubbish it is.

    As an aside. I had a flatmate in the nineties that was a working girl. According to her there was a journalist that was well known about the local establishments with a predilection for being made to crawl around on all fours like a dog, while his pallid fat backside was vigorously paddled.

  10. Marcus Classis

    Oakes has been heading down the conspiracy theorist path for some time now.

  11. john constantine

    The new internment will be strapping a “Mother Box” to a suitable subject.

    Robotics and artificial intelligence software will shortly be able to have a ‘Siri’ that listens to all the subjects conversations for keywords and intentions.

    Monitor location by gps in real time.

    Monitor skin for substance abuse.

    Unfortunately it will be more likely to be surgically implanted in Enemies of the State like cat posters than mosquebunker enthusiasts.

    Portable jails, how cost effective is that?.

  12. Ubique

    Internment of those suspected as Jihadis seems a much better option of trying to watch them 24/7 and then shooting them dead after they murder innocent people on the streets. So as not to be unfair, those interned could be given the option of deportation.

  13. .

    Doesn’t require any special laws, just application of existing law. Very simple.

    Yes.

  14. Martian Charlie

    1) Deport all convicted terrorists without exception and ban from ever returning to country.
    2) Do not allow ISIS war-criminals travel back to Australia.
    3) Internment of suspected terrorists is perfectly fine, they are a threat to our open, free society.
    4) Police and special forces must have shoot to kill -rights and instructions.
    5) Allow concealed carry to citizens with weapons licenses.

    This problem will not, ever, be solved with normal, tolerant, western judiciary methods.

  15. stackja

    Jihadists have a choice. Renounce Jihad. Super Max. Or deportation.
    Internment of relatives might convince some.

  16. pbw

    In the meantime internment is a rubbish idea and it reflects poorly on Oakes that he didn’t just say so.

    Maybe he did. Suspend disbelief for a moment, and imagine that Oakes is trying to stir up trouble in the Coalition.

  17. Ubique

    Renounce Jihad. Super Max. Or deportation

    Other than politicians, the cops, and the judiciary, who would be dumb enough to believe a Jihadist renouncing?

  18. Infidel Tiger

    I agree with the overall suggestions in the original post but to actually end the threat of terrorism itself, not just treat symptoms, will take military action.

    Good to see you agree that Islam must be obliterated and every state that supports it razed.

    You libertarians sure have a hard on for bloodshed.

  19. stackja

    Ubique – So then Super Max. Deportation.

  20. jonesy

    Terrorism is stateless criminality! Whilst it takes common police work to catch the filth…it is the state that MUST withdraw state protections from these criminals. Pick up a gun in the name of jihad.means death by lead ingestion. The family of a jihad is stripped of citizenship and returned to the hellhole from whenst they came. Suspects of same get the same treatment. Stateless crime means no citizen rights, no legal aid, no legal protection…Jim Molan is on the right track. Enemies of the state have no rights!

  21. pete m

    laws don’t win wars

  22. Gab

    After all why should we intern people on the suspicion they may commit a crime when the legal system lets people actually accused of a crime walk the streets? Recidivists should not get bail at all. Let’s have longer prison terms for people convicted of crimes. Let’s have mandatory deportation for non-citizens convicted of terrorism related crimes.

    This.

  23. jupes

    Does this mean you are in favour of mandatory sentencing? I don’t have a problem with that in respect of terrorism charges, but some will.

    Who? What sort of moron trusts legal types with sentencing?

    FMD look at their track record.

  24. Boambee John

    “jonesy
    #2408754, posted on June 10, 2017 at 8:34 pm
    Terrorism is stateless criminality! Whilst it takes common police work to catch the filth…it is the state that MUST withdraw state protections from these criminals. Pick up a gun in the name of jihad.means death by lead ingestion. The family of a jihad is stripped of citizenship and returned to the hellhole from whenst they came. Suspects of same get the same treatment. Stateless crime means no citizen rights, no legal aid, no legal protection…Jim Molan is on the right track. Enemies of the state have no rights!”

    Reintroduce the practice of Outlawry.

    Once declared an outlaw, you have no rights and are fair game for any citizen.

    Add in rewards?

  25. jupes

    Recidivists should not get bail at all. Let’s have longer prison terms for people convicted of crimes. Let’s have mandatory deportation for non-citizens convicted of terrorism related crimes.

    No non-legal type can disagree with this.

    Nevertheless Muslim terrorists are not criminals, they are enemy combatants. The legal system is not designed to deal with them.

    We need to go to war against Islam. The sooner we do it, the less bloody it will be.

  26. a reader

    I’m pretty sure Molan didn’t actually advocate it.

  27. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Nevertheless Muslim terrorists are not criminals, they are enemy combatants. The legal system is not designed to deal with them.

    Looking at the way the legal system was manipulated in the David Hicks case, I agree with you.

  28. cynical1

    Let’s have mandatory deportation for non-citizens convicted of terrorism related crimes.

    Peter Dutton was unavailable for comment.

    AAT said “Nah,nah,nah”.

  29. Declare it officially as a war. Incarcerate any activists, supporters & sympathisers of the enemy as POWs until this new-fangled war is over.

  30. pbw

    Infidel Tiger makes the point. You are proposing measures that will deter “economic” actors, which, in the impoverished worldview of libertarians, pretty much equal “people,” collections of wom make up societies and cultures.

    How does that logic work with a suicide murderer? How would that have worked with the London Bridge killers? “Oh dearie me, I could be arrested for this, if I’m not killed outright. I could be put into a jail run by a Muslim gang. Woe is me.”

    Religious commitment is a world beyond the ken of secular economics and economists. Like marriage, it predates agriculture and the human settlements that accompanied it. When a culture imagines it has outgrown religion, it goes insane, ceases to believe not only in God, but in itself, refuses to reproduce itself, and shrivels up. Look around.

    Part of that illness is not merely the inability to grasp the nature of the threat, but the suicidal invitation to and encouragement of the executioners. Jenny Taylor wrote an article on Mark Durie’s blog in the aftermath of Manchester, that spells out the schizophrenia and utter debasement of Western culture that is destroying us.

  31. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Declare it officially as a war. Incarcerate any activists, supporters & sympathisers of the enemy as POWs until this new-fangled war is over.

    From a legal point of view, the best solution. All combatants to abide by the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention to claim the protection of those conventions, or run the risk of summary execution.

    Slight problem – who do we actually declare war on? ISIS State? That would mean recognizing them.

  32. pbw

    Background on the “culture” represented by Arian Grande.

  33. Boambee John

    [email protected]
    #2408798, posted on June 10, 2017 at 9:08 pm
    Declare it officially as a war. Incarcerate any activists, supporters & sympathisers of the enemy as POWs until this new-fangled war is over.”

    GW Bush missed a great opportunity to virtue signal after 9/11.

    He could have noted that the jihadists captured in Afghanistan did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Conventions, but decided as an act of charity to give them the status of prisoners of war.

    As such, there would be no cause for legal intervention. They would simply be detained under armed guard until the war concluded. Which will be never.

    Austere camps, isolated locations, occasional visits by the Red Crescent, no other rights.

  34. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Long, long before we start interning people at random to pander to paranoia there are other far more sensible ideas that could and should be adopted. For example, let’s prosecute people who commit actual crimes.

    Even with the low average IQ, there are still plenty of them that are smart enough to adapt the idiots and work out how to get through all our defences to cause mass casualties.

    Until you can mind read there is no way of knowing when a muslim decides to go on a martydom mission. The idea of punishing them is a wee bit late when they set out to martyr themselves for the 72 virgins.

    I don’t know how many dead it is going to take before the peaceniks realise this is a war and therefore a military operation not a law and order issue.

  35. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Slight problem – who do we actually declare war on? ISIS State? That would mean recognizing them.

    Return the declaration of war on islam. islam is a transnational state.

  36. NewChum

    Ultimately what politicians and academics think is fair play is going to become pretty irrelevant, unless they sort things out.

    How much longer do they think they can lie and hide behind bollards? Do they think this is just going to go away? Wave a bit of Keynesian spending and ride it out? Look at the UK – outbred and displaced in 50 years or less. Look at history – why is this time going to be different?

    Either they fix it now or the next leader to pop u will make Hanson look like a moderate.

  37. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    He could have noted that the jihadists captured in Afghanistan did not meet the requirements of the Geneva Conventions, but decided as an act of charity to give them the status of prisoners of war.

    The alternative, all perfectly legally, was a bullet. Big Boy’s game, big boy’s rules. See T.V footage from South Viet Nam, circa 1968.

  38. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Return the declaration of war on islam. islam is a transnational state.

    All the major factions of islam still rely on the same set basic premise, they just jockey for supremacy.

    Mohamed was the messenger of god and he was told to fight till only islam ruled the world.

  39. I Am the Walras, Equilibrate and Price Take

    We wouldn’t have to intern them if we didn’t import them.

    First thing: stop importing the problem.

  40. Leo G

    What is Laurie Oakes up to?

    Why would Oakes draw attention to Jim Molan’s comments about the internment of terrorist suspects when that might reduce Molan’s influence among many nervous Coalition MPs?

  41. Baldrick

    Long, long before we start interning people at random to pander to paranoia there are other far more sensible ideas that could and should be adopted.

    Bugger internment, Carry and Conceal for starters and sensible laws about using weapons for self defence. It’s quite obvious if you’re involved in any terrorist incident, you’re on your own. Governments are all too quick to pass legislation restricting your freedoms about what waste is allowed in the recycle bin. Protecting yourself from Islamic extremists, not so much.

  42. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Glad to see you back, Baldrick.

    “Nolli Illegitimatemum Se Carborundum” The war cry of my clan, shouted in the bars and brothels from Cardiff, through Cape Town, to San Francisco.

    “Don’t ever let the bastards grind you down.”

  43. harry buttle

    Yep, concealed carry laws, let us defend ourselves rather than rely on police who can’t be there or locking people up in case they offend.

  44. OneWorldGovernment

    Laurie Oaks is trying to get some ‘mojo’ out of Andrew Bolt’s stand up that has gone around the world.

    Laurie Oaks is irrelevant.

  45. classical_hero

    We interned the Japanese and Germans for far less than what’s going on now.

  46. danger mouse

    Laurie Oaks is still alive?! Wow! Next you are going to tell me Mike Carlton is too…

  47. A Lurker

    I haven’t read all the comments yet but I’m in favour of internment camps because you need to separate the Islamists from the general criminal population. Why? Because once inside, the Islamists radicalise those who aren’t yet Muslim.

  48. Sparkx

    OneWorldGovernment
    #2408921, posted on June 11, 2017 at 1:42 am
    Laurie Oaks is trying to get some ‘mojo’ out of Andrew Bolt’s stand up that has gone around the world.

    Laurie Oaks is irrelevant.

    +1

  49. Sparkx

    Lutheran ministers were interned here during WWII for preaching in German. We could do the same now for those who preach in Arabic.

  50. john constantine

    Their left would simply say that if only enough people from Axis countries had been mass imported into the Anglosphere, the War couldn’t have happened.

    Once Big Australia has been fundementally transformed so that the obsolete clinging Anglosphere English speaking population is a balkanised minority, getting into another war with cultures that have provided the voteherds will be impossible.

    Be like Fiji getting into a war with India.

    Plus, once Australia is cowed into docility by crushing foreign debt, the World Bank will only provide bailout funding for approved uses, not military spending.

    Peace, Comrade, we have Candles and Open, Loving Hearts where you only have bombs and suicide trucks.

  51. md

    Let’s take a long hard look at the bail laws.

    Let’s not be conned by this misdirection our leftist government and media have deliberately put out there.

    There is only ONE issue here: refugee and immigration policy.

  52. Herodotus

    Internment only creates a new management pattern and its attendant problems, plus attracting international approbrium, tearful UN rapporteurs, useful idiot journalists and lawyers.
    Go for the big prize, deportation, while only attracting much the same approbrium, and involving less ongoing management expense.
    Citizenship should be automatically cancelled by terrorism, planning for it, or advocating it or any departure from our legal system in the direction of sharia, such as his butt tahrir types are always doing, in short demonstrating that you are not really a citizen in good faith anyway. Just remember that Benbrika, currently in gaol for planning a terrorist action, spent six years going through the legal hoops to get permanent residency after overstaying his one month visitor visa, and saying during those hearings that he “loved the Australian lifestyle”.
    And stop importing more trouble.

  53. Up The Workers!

    Fat Old Jabba is ‘Get Ups’ Butt Plug.

    They only pull him out when they’ve got some new ordure to air.

  54. stackja

    A Lurker
    #2408941, posted on June 11, 2017 at 6:20 am
    I haven’t read all the comments yet but I’m in favour of internment camps because you need to separate the Islamists from the general criminal population. Why? Because once inside, the Islamists radicalise those who aren’t yet Muslim.

    Low intelligence of the general criminal population easily swayed?

  55. stackja

    Below an example of low intelligence of the general criminal population easily swayed?

    Man charged with offensive conduct and assault police – Martin Place

    Saturday, 10 June 2017 10:14:55 PM

    A man has been charged after he allegedly assaulted police following his arrest for offensive behaviour in Martin Place yesterday.

    About 3.10pm (Friday 10 June 2017), officers from Sydney City Local Area Command responded to reports of a man yelling and acting suspiciously in Martin Place.

    Officers arrested a 27-year-old man. During a search of the man, officers allegedly located a number of items including a bag of drugs believed to be cannabis.

    The items were seized and will undergo forensic examinations.

    Officers are investigating reports that the man was acting suspiciously on a bus near central earlier in the afternoon.

    The man was taken to hospital for assessment and while at the hospital, he allegedly assaulted two police officers.

    He was later released from hospital and taken to Day Street Police Station where he was charged with offensive conduct (x2), assault police (x2), possess prohibited drug and intimidation.

    He was refused bail and is due to appear at Parramatta Bail Court tomorrow (Sunday 11 June 2017).

  56. john constantine

    The wahhabis run the jail systems because they are motivated, cohesive and disciplined.

    All they require is a critical mass of thugs with blind obedience and they can impose fundementalism upon any captive demographic.

    Their reach extends well outside the jail system.

    “Got recent photos of your kids?”
    “Want copies of the ones we have got?”

  57. rickw

    In the meantime internment is a rubbish idea and it reflects poorly on Oakes that he didn’t just say so.

    It’s not a rubbish idea, we are in a war, a war that most other countries are either loosing or have already lost.

    The detail of this approach needs to be that you either get interned or leave. That means there will be about 5 people interned because that’s precisely the number of muslims who value Australia enough to stick it out through a war that their brothers and sisters brought to our shore.

  58. Shy Ted

    What is Laurie Oakes up to? Usually eating.

  59. incoherent rambler

    This whole thing is even a question because our politicians are trying to fight the military threat of Islamic terrorism as if its a domestic law and order issue.

    +1

    The alternative is more militarization of your police force (not a good idea).

    IS et al have declared war on us. We should acknowledge that.

    Laws that stop us from saying anything nasty about the enemy probably don’t help.

  60. struth

    They wouldn’t be here if our pollies didn’t want them.

    It is plainly obvious that they prefer Muslims to all others.
    Especially Christians.
    Does anyone really think that these people are just being PC?
    They are purposely stocking Australia with as many mussies as they can get away with.
    All western nations (except the United States maybe soon with Trump) that are basically under UNcontrol have their political elites basically on a mission to divide and conquer us and give us laughable side shows such as bollards and alarms .
    Any little side show while keeping the invasion going.
    Merkel tried to show the rest of her political mates how it’s done.
    Looks like she got away with it too.
    The others are thinking twice about pulling the same stunt so openly but will be bragging to each other that they are achieving the same outcome at dinners and conventions.
    We are at war with global socialism.
    Our enemies are outside our borders and inside our borders.
    Talking about muslim internment is laughable.
    Who is going to do that?
    The same people that purposely brought them here on mass?
    I would suggest to you that we’ll be the ones in camps before they will be.

  61. Combine Dave

    I would suggest to you that we’ll be the ones in camps before they will be.

    Supermax for naughty words on fb and offensive tweets?

  62. struth

    Yep…

    The terrible act of sticking bacon on a car windscreen sets the cops off …………………..

    We’ll be in camps soon.
    Especially catallaxy commenters

  63. Combine Dave

    Ok. So for the purposes of dealing with Islamic extremists:

    + Border control.
    + Deport (as in not a fit person to receive a visa) any with links to terrorists regardless of whether a crime was committed.
    + Mandatory deport those who commit any crime with a sentence over 6 months (after time served of course).
    + No bail nor parole for those who have committed serious crimes.
    + Remove access to welfare and benefits to families and the associates of terrorists.

  64. old bloke

    Internment isn’t going to happen, forget about it. We’re in a long war, it started 1400 years ago, there will be no quick and easy solution.

    What we must do is ban, or at least impose a moratorium, on Islamic migration, and remove the AAT’s ability to override Parliament’s deportation orders.

    These are the first steps that need to be taken, and they can be taken now.

  65. feelthebern

    Government benefits should be paid at a household level.
    If anyone in your household commits a terrorism related crime, the household doesn’t qualify for benefits.
    Little Mo or Abdullah would be on a should leash from mum and dad that they wouldn’t have a chance to do anything.
    Don’t get between these people and government sugar money.

  66. john constantine

    If a wahhabi household has a successful martyr, getting centerlink cut off wouldn’t matter, they would just have a whip-around at the mosquebunker next friday to make up for it.

  67. L.B.Loveday

    “.. interning people at random “.
    As a Professor you should know the meaning of “random” and not use it wrongly – there was no suggestion from anyone that interment should be by other than the opposite of random, viz selected on the basis of pre-determined criteria.

  68. jock

    Interesting conversation. Im stunned old dinner plate face is still alive. When oaks goes the earth will throw him back up.

    Im not fussed on internment. But islam is indeed a problem. I noticed that the chinese simply banned ramadan in the uigher province. Anybody breaking the law was of course interned.

  69. rickw

    Internment isn’t going to happen, forget about it. We’re in a long war, it started 1400 years ago, there will be no quick and easy solution.

    If the west decided to finish this war, then the time required to do this is exactly the flight time from Ramstien to Mecca, Medina and Riyhad in a B1. Whichever is longer.

    The important point about the interment discussion is that it moves the debate. The actual installation of muslim sirens and talk of internment camps wakes people up, it makes them acknowledge that we are at war with islam, a medieval death cult purposefully imported by our politicians for the last 40 years.

  70. rickw

    “.. interning people at random “.
    As a Professor you should know the meaning of “random” and not use it wrongly – there was no suggestion from anyone that interment should be by other than the opposite of random, viz selected on the basis of pre-determined criteria.

    Getting academics to have a genuinely honest and focused debate is difficult, they will endlessly weave in untruths, half truths and always seek to expand they debate towards irrelavencies.

  71. mareeS

    “Why should we intern people on the suspicion they may commit a crime”

    Well, Sinclair, it has happened to a friend of ours. Here, in Australia.

    He had brought home some personal belongings of his recently-deceased father, which happened to include his father’s old hunting kit: an ancient .22 rifle, 2 bush knives and camping gear.

    His then wife, who is widely acknowledged to be crazy as batshit, went through the gear, found the gun (but no ammo), phoned the police, he was arrested and spent a week on remand in jail. This for a man who has never committed a crime of violence.

    Mandatory detention happens all the time in Australia on the sayso of wives like this one, so why not for terror suspects?

  72. Internment isn’t going to happen, forget about it. We’re in a long war, it started 1400 years ago, there will be no quick and easy solution.

    True, Old Bloke, and it’s a pity we keep having to learn the same lessons over and over again. Islam is a tribal, Bigman religion. Once an identifiable “Bigman” force is established, Jihad will continue until that Bigman identity is brought to heel.

    How many times in the last 1400 years has the West had to eventually raise an army and smote the Evil Empire of Islam, so peace could be restored? How many times will we have to do it again?

    There is only one answer to this. Pick ten Islamic cities from Tripoli in west, to Raqqa in the east. Leaflet drop them for ten days warning the population to get out. Then nuke them. It is a statement: Our Bigman is bigger than your Bigman. Warn the Saudis and the other Arabic states that their capitals, and Mecca and Medina, are next on the list, if there’s any more strife. Send the same message to Erdogan with respect to Ankara and Istanbul.

    We are eventually going to have to do this, or something like it, eventually, anyway. Just as we have had to do many times in the past, when Islam ran amok. All that is open to debate is how many innocent people are going to get killed in the meantime.

  73. .

    Surely your point is that nonsense ought not to happen at all?

  74. .

    How many people do you plan to murder MV? This is real lunatic stuff.

  75. I’m not “planning” to do anything, Dot.
    I’m TELLING you what’s going to happen, one way or another, that’s all.
    I’m not even offering a personal opinion.
    I’ve simply taken the lesson of history, and implanted it on the future.
    The evil genie of Islam has escaped from its bottle once again.
    And terror now will rule until it is forcibly shoved back in.

  76. rickw

    I’m TELLING you what’s going to happen, one way or another, that’s all.

    People get all prissy about internment, deportation etc. etc.

    We definitely have a choice about whether or not we do these things, however, we don’t have a choice about the next stop for the muslim jihad bus, which is Civil War.

    Think these measures are harsh? How harsh is a Civil War? Don’t think Civil War isn’t an inevitable part of islams march? Ask the Lebanese and Filipino’s (invading a city is pretty close to civil war) and then ask a Frenchman if he thinks there will be a civil war in the next 20 years.

    All these “harsh measures ” are pretty bloody good options when you consider the inevitable alternatives.

  77. mareeS

    Civil war? Ask England, ask America, ask any country in Europe except the canny Swiss and Japanese,who know the value of a stable social and financial system over petty squabbles. Also, they deny residency to Muslims, who have the monopoly on petty squabbles wherever they go.

  78. old bloke

    rickw
    #2409125, posted on June 11, 2017 at 11:15 am

    If the west decided to finish this war, then the time required to do this is exactly the flight time from Ramstien to Mecca, Medina and Riyhad in a B1. Whichever is longer.

    That will achieve absolutely nothing. Islam should be contained on its home grounds and left to stew in its own juices. They will eventually either reform themselves or kill each other. Just keep them away from civilization.

  79. Haidee

    Internment and deportation. Unfair? There’s lots of unfairness, already. And on the whole,
    people accept it.

  80. rickw

    That will achieve absolutely nothing. Islam should be contained on its home grounds and left to stew in its own juices. They will eventually either reform themselves or kill each other. Just keep them away from civilization.

    It rather fucks up the “allah is on our side” narrative when the religious centre is turned into a sheet of glass. There are plenty of historical examples where the destruction of a religious centre has seen the demise of a religion, for pretty much the same reason, hard to argue that your god exists when HQ has been wrecked and your religious leaders are dead.

    What we are dealing with today is 1400 years of letting islam stew in its own juices. Time for a new approach, containment doesn’t work.

  81. A Lurker

    There is only one answer to this. Pick ten Islamic cities from Tripoli in west, to Raqqa in the east. Leaflet drop them for ten days warning the population to get out. Then nuke them. It is a statement: Our Bigman is bigger than your Bigman. Warn the Saudis and the other Arabic states that their capitals, and Mecca and Medina, are next on the list, if there’s any more strife. Send the same message to Erdogan with respect to Ankara and Istanbul.

    I’d nuke one, and make the others sweat.
    If they haven’t learned their lesson after one, then choose another one from the list.
    Rinse and repeat.

  82. A Lurker

    How many people do you plan to murder MV? This is real lunatic stuff.

    Did you miss the leaflet drop with the 10 day evacuation plan?

    Btw, looking back in history, I’m certain King Richard and his crusaders would have opted for a small tactical nuke rather than a long and drawn out crusade.

  83. Makka

    If things keep going the way they are, with piss weak attitudes like Sinc’s framing the debate and laws around moslems killing us, there will come a time where the calls for internment will become deafening. Then it will happen and suddenly we’ll see the massive benefits of such a sensible idea.

    Internment of all known, suspected and associates of jihadis now makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, we don’t have the numbers yet.

  84. rickw

    That will achieve absolutely nothing. Islam should be contained on its home grounds and left to stew in its own juices. They will eventually either reform themselves or kill each other. Just keep them away from civilization.

    Actually the muzzies understand long term warfare in a way that you don’t: They would let a nuke off in the Vatican if they could. They have desperately erased and destroyed every significant structure, particularly religious ones that fell into their hands. They understand in the long term that people believe what they see, if there is no physical evidence of anything pre-dating islam, then there has only ever been islam.

    It would therefore be equally important in the destruction of islam, to destroy all mosques regardless of historical value and to in turn restore what Islam had destroyed when it came into an area.

  85. old bloke

    rickw
    #2409255, posted on June 11, 2017 at 1:00 pm

    What we are dealing with today is 1400 years of letting islam stew in its own juices. Time for a new approach, containment doesn’t work.

    I disagree, containment did work. After the 1915 Battle of Broken Hill, there was an unwritten and unspoken agreement between the major parties that there would be no more Islamic migration. That worked well until Malcolm Fraser thought that he knew better and he opened the doors for Islamic migration (against the advice of his department).

    So, from 1915 to Malcolm Fraser’s days, we had no Moslem terrorist or general law-breaking problems, containment did work.

  86. old bloke

    rickw
    #2409313, posted on June 11, 2017 at 2:06 pm

    Actually the muzzies understand long term warfare in a way that you don’t: They would let a nuke off in the Vatican if they could.

    No they wouldn’t, they want it to serve as a future mosque, as a sign of their conquest of Christendom.

  87. Crossie

    If a wahhabi household has a successful martyr, getting centerlink cut off wouldn’t matter, they would just have a whip-around at the mosquebunker next friday to make up for it.

    Maybe for a while but eventually the alms will dry up, Muslims are not known for their generous charity.

    Besides, donations are not as reliable as the tribute we pay them in dole, a plethora of family allowances and the disability pension.

  88. Mark A

    A Lurker
    #2409283, posted on June 11, 2017 at 1:35 pm

    There is only one answer to this. Pick ten Islamic cities from Tripoli in west, to Raqqa in the east. Leaflet drop them for ten days warning the population to get out. Then nuke them. It is a statement: Our Bigman is bigger than your Bigman. Warn the Saudis and the other Arabic states that their capitals, and Mecca and Medina, are next on the list, if there’s any more strife. Send the same message to Erdogan with respect to Ankara and Istanbul.

    I’d nuke one, and make the others sweat.
    If they haven’t learned their lesson after one, then choose another one from the list.
    Rinse and repeat.

    I’m not sure you thought this through, Why destroy empty cities?
    With displacing those populations you just add to the problem.

  89. notafan

    No they wouldn’t, they want it to serve as a future mosque, as a sign of their conquest of Christendom.

    So true

  90. iampeter

    Good to see you agree that Islam must be obliterated and every state that supports it razed.

    All that was needed was the destruction of state sponsors of terror. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan would’ve been sufficient and we would not be seeing any terrorist attacks again.

    You libertarians sure have a hard on for bloodshed.

    Well I’m not a libertarian so can’t speak for them, I’m just a classic liberal and the only thing I have a hard-on for is the government doing it’s job and protecting the rights of its citizens, in this case against foreign aggressors.

    Giving police new powers, mass surveillance programs, deportations, internment, walls or any other big gov, left wing, rights violating crap Conservatives seem to love, is not going to do much to address the threat posed by a foreign aggressor.

  91. Btw, looking back in history, I’m certain King Richard and his crusaders would have opted for a small tactical nuke rather than a long and drawn out crusade.

    That’s the truth of it, Lurker. People like Dot like to pretend that we are discussing some “possible” state of affairs that may or may not come to pass sometime in the distant future. Truth is, it’s been Islam versus the rest of the world since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, and going on now more or less continuously for nearly 40 years.

    What has been the toll so far? Two million plus dead in Afghanistan, one million plus in Iraq, 60,000 plus so far in Syria, God knows how many in Turkey and on its borders. Nobody’s even counting the bodies in Africa. On top of that we have upwards of 20 million displaced, largely homeless refugees.

    And the payoff so far? Ever increasing, bloody Jihad attacks on civilians in the West. Sooner or later the West has to come to terms with the fact that fighting them at home is pointless; the fight has to be taken up to them in their countries, just as Richard had to do. And others.

    Ten tactical nukes on the commercial centres of ten largely evacuated cities, would probably produce less casulaties than simply continuing what we are doing for another twelve months.

  92. iampeter

    When a culture imagines it has outgrown religion, it goes insane, ceases to believe not only in God, but in itself, refuses to reproduce itself, and shrivels up. Look around.

    Are you talking about the west or the Middle East? Cause that’s what a culture that hasn’t outgrown the horror show of religion looks like.

    No wonder Conservatives struggle harder than any leftist to name the enemy, it’s hard to fight the threat of Theocracy when you’re supporters of Theocracy-lite.

  93. I’m not sure you thought this through, Why destroy empty cities?
    With displacing those populations you just add to the problem.

    When Jihadists embark on mayhem they don’t cry out “for my people”, or “for my country”, or “for my President”. The cry is “God is Great”. Translated it is “my Bigman is greater that your Bigman”. They don’t actually give a stuff about individual life and liberty, including their own. The only way to prove them wrong is to destroy their faith in the belief system that sustains them. And that can only be done with an overwhelming display of strength.

    Besides which, the ten cities I would pick have already been the sites of bloody conflict for some time now. It is highly doubtful there are many civilians left to displace.

  94. Irreversible

    It is very clear indeed that the management and internment of violent criminals needs to be much improved. But before getting too committed we need to understand that internment is in not a universal solution. Prisons are training schools for violent criminals, which a singular visit to Sydney’s Silverwater high security wing will demonstrate.
    We need to look very hard at the prevention of crime, which starts with the health services for kids – especially those with conditions like speech and psychological disorder which often lead to isolation and trouble at a young age.

  95. struth

    Are you talking about the west or the Middle East? Cause that’s what a culture that hasn’t outgrown the horror show of religion looks like.

    No wonder Conservatives struggle harder than any leftist to name the enemy, it’s hard to fight the threat of Theocracy when you’re supporters of Theocracy-lite.

    What a tool.
    They are different religions so you are dealing with three situations.
    Islam, Christianity and no religion.

    All you need to get through your thick head is if the Middle East was Christian now, as strong as it is Islamic, it would be a wealthy, just, paradise compared to the evil shit hole is.
    If we were as strong in Christianity as we were when this country was founded on it, up until the decline that started in the sixties, we wouldn’t be self destructing with godless leftism.

  96. struth

    We need to look very hard at the prevention of crime, which starts with the health services for kids – especially those with conditions like speech and psychological disorder which often lead to isolation and trouble at a young age.

    Good god………

    and have a banana.

  97. iampeter

    All you need to get through your thick head is if the Middle East was Christian now, as strong as it is Islamic, it would be a wealthy, just, paradise compared to the evil shit hole is.

    Yes the Christian dominated Dark Ages were a paradise compared to today’s Middle East. I guess we’ve just going backwards since then.

    If we were as strong in Christianity as we were when this country was founded on it, up until the decline that started in the sixties, we wouldn’t be self destructing with godless leftism.

    But this is just fantasy as well, Christianity was not a big deal at the turn of the 20th Century which is why we were able to win WW2 and ultimately triumph in the Cold War. It’s made a frightening comeback since the 70’s and today has disarmed western civilization from being able to fight collectivist of the secular or religious variety.

    You just don’t get it. Leftism, is the altruistic, collectivist, mystic and by necessity force/violent side of the political spectrum. In the west it gets all of its ideas from Christianity. To even start being a right winger you need to reject collectivism, including the Christian variety.

    Because of Christianity, Conservatives are no more capable of opposing the left in domestic policies as they are capable of opposing left Theocracies in foreign policies.

    Hard to oppose Socialism and ISIS when you agree with these ideologies on pretty much all the fundamentals thanks to religion!

  98. Squirrel

    “Long, long before we start interning people at random to pander to paranoia there are other far more sensible ideas that could and should be adopted.”

    Indeed, and let’s not get to the point where we have hostage-taking, or other threats to the broader community, as an attempted trade-off for the release of individuals, particularly those perceived as having had their liberties unjustly curtailed.

  99. Mark A

    memoryvault
    #2409364, posted on June 11, 2017 at 3:45 pm

    Sorry, I see no point to it.
    What would destroying 10 mostly empty cities achieve? Just increase an already angry lot with nowhere to go and desperate, ready to fight to the death.

    What are you going to do with them? Import them?
    Commercial centres? What commercial centres?

    I’m not against the destroying of cities if that is what must be done, but then destroy utterly, buildings an all. Salt the earth after.

  100. Meanwhile, as we sit here in our “civilised” manner, discussing why we couldn’t possibly simply banish/exile people who refuse to fit in, and the “unfairness” of collective punishment on the families of wrongdoers, and the “horrors” of internment, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the UAE (Sunni Muslims) are in the process of banishing ALL Quataris (Shiite Muslims), plus their families, with internment for those who don’t obey within the deadline.

    Funny old world, isn’t it?

  101. What would destroying 10 mostly empty cities achieve?

    Combined with the threat of further, similar action (see above): –

    “Our Bigman is bigger than your Bigman”.

    It is a simple message.
    It is the ONLY relevant message.

  102. Mark A

    memoryvault
    #2409436, posted on June 11, 2017 at 5:57 pm

    Sorry MV.
    We are worlds apart on this. I’m a practical and pragmatic man and I see no practical reason to do what you suggest.

  103. We are worlds apart on this. I’m a practical and pragmatic man and I see no practical reason to do what you suggest.

    That’s okay, Mark. I just hope you and yours can practically and pragmatically handle Martial Law when it is inevitably declared here. Because in the long run, that is the only alternative. And since there are a lot more people who think like you than me, you have already decided the future.

  104. Mark A

    memoryvault
    #2409452, posted on June 11, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    I don’t think you get the gist of what I meant.

  105. .

    Did you miss the leaflet drop with the 10 day evacuation plan?

    No I didn’t and if you’re going to lecture me about morals when you are advocating intentionally disproportionate retaliation…I’m not going to take heed.

  106. harry buttle

    Nukes are so 1950s. Combine an effective (against tribal societies) old school tactic – reprisals, with the fact that we have mapped the human genome.

    Literally decimate a tribe when the DNA of a dead terrorist IDs where they came from, pretty soon you will have brutal levels of self policing.

  107. .

    Literally decimate a tribe

    This is real lunatic stuff.

    You might feel safe and secure, Harry – now when Achmed and Selim are being whacked, but what if we were to decimate David Hick’s clan? Far out pal, you and I could be both related to that deadshit.

    The white ethnic French might have something to say about 9/10 of Willy Brigette’s extended family to the 20th degree or so being put to death as well.

  108. DM of WA

    Before we debate the morality of internment without trial or the pros and cons of deportation of undesirables and the various other fantasies in this thread – can we first find a way to stop letting them into the country in the first place?

    Note to Davidson: “.. interning people at random..” – are you really a professor at an Australian college?

  109. Mark A

    DM of WA
    #2409632, posted on June 11, 2017 at 9:39 pm

    Before we debate the morality of internment without trial or the pros and cons of deportation of undesirables and the various other fantasies in this thread – can we first find a way to stop letting them into the country in the first place?

    Fat chance of that. 20K min. every year are coming in or more exactly brought in by “our” gov.

    As AB keeps saying “Shut the gate!”

  110. NewChum

    I’d nuke one, and make the others sweat.
    If they haven’t learned their lesson after one, then choose another one from the list.
    Rinse and repeat.

    Funny how most people will absolutely revile from this in disgust.

    But this is exactly how ww2 was ended.

    Japan was in a weaker state than Islam is now. But it finished the war. A generation later, the Mazda 3 is a top selling car in Australia. Made in Hiroshima, where the first bomb hit.

    You have to step back and look at the history of this whole thing. Increasing conflict is inevitable, sadly. There is no amount of police work or Internet censorship that is going to fix this thing. It’s not going to fizzle out into a political solution, except for replacing all of the politicians with Muslim ones, the end goal.

    Now I know how people felt in the 1930s.

    I watched the fifth Harry Potter film again recently. It maps *perfectly* with the rise of modern Islam. It’s back, nobody wants to acknowledge it, the government continues to pass rules to stop discussion to pretend everything is ok. The evil ones don’t want negation, they want all the ‘inferior’ ones to die. The press is behind the denial movement. Truth tellers get persecuted on trumped up charges.

    The irony is that the author of that is in complete denial herself. She modelled it on the third reich with a bit of KKK, but can’t see the obvious modern equivalent. They want us dead or gone or slave class.

  111. .

    Funny how most people will absolutely revile from this in disgust.

    Yes well.

  112. Funny how most people will absolutely revile from this in disgust.

    Yes well.

    We played this game once before, Dot. I outlined the only ultimate solution, based on history, and you called me a deranged, murderous thug. Just like now. Then I asked you for your “solution”, and you decided to go and weed the Pansies. Or something.

    So, I ask again, what is your “solution”?

  113. Habib

    Stop referring to their operations as criminal acts; they do break several laws of armed conflict, however they don’t see them ad criminal acts, they see them ad military actions against the enemy. We should treat them accordingly. Plod are hopeless at enforcing the most inconsequential laws, dealing with an insurgency is well beyong their capability, especially since the neutering and femisation of forces by leftist imbeciles. Arm defence menbers, and authorise lethal force. And allow citizens to defend themselves.

  114. Mark A

    memoryvault
    #2409663, posted on June 11, 2017 at 10:19 pm

    So, I ask again, what is your “solution”?

    No use asking him, you know his solutions, open borders and let er’ rip.
    It will all come out in the wash.

  115. NewChum

    The point is what is going to happen will happen and no argument on a lightly trafficked blog site can be anything other than observations.

    Where we are now was difficult to imagine 5 years ago, in 5 years time it will be harder to remember where it was in 2017.

  116. No use asking him, you know his solutions, open borders and let er’ rip.

    Unfortunately, yes, Mark.
    All hold hands and sing kumbyah and all that.

  117. Whalehunt Fun

    Internment is for spendthrifts. Notification that their claim to be human has been denied and that in 12 hours time they will be classed as vermin that all citizens are obluged to exterminate, coupled with not being entitled to own any assetts, all of which are now forfeit to the state will result in them leaving at theor own expense and never returning. Cheap and effective.

  118. Where we are now was difficult to imagine 5 years ago, in 5 years time it will be harder to remember where it was in 2017.

    No, Newchum.
    People have been warning of the ultimate and inevitable “clash of civilisations” for hundreds of years.

    Time for bed.

  119. Whalehunt Fun

    And allow citizens to defend themselves.

    No. Oblige citizens to defend themselves. Riminalise behaviour sych as failing to carry or failing to shoot to kill when a crime is observed. It will put a stop to cigarette littering in a matter of hours.

  120. harry buttle

    “You might feel safe and secure, Harry – now when Achmed and Selim are being whacked, but what if we were to decimate David Hick’s clan? Far out pal, you and I could be both related to that deadshit.”

    I’ve got news for you, I know my relatives, under such a system you’d report weird uncle jihad in a heartbeat, and you’d be checking up.

  121. Mark A

    Yes MV, time for bed for me too.

    But it all boils down to a simple fact everyone tries to side step or deny, ignore.

    DON’T let them in in the first place.

  122. But it all boils down to a simple fact everyone tries to side step or deny, ignore.
    DON’T let them in in the first place.

    That’s a “given” Mark.

  123. NewChum

    Where we are now was difficult to imagine 5 years ago, in 5 years time it will be harder to remember where it was in 2017.

    No, Newchum.
    People have been warning of the ultimate and inevitable “clash of civilisations” for hundreds of years.

    Some of us, yes. I’m talking about the greater population who keep thinking this willl all pass like bell bottom trousers or the spice girls. That it can be waited out. That’s why the vigils were a big thing but are slipping. Because at first it was a response to a natural disaster – a 1 in 100
    Year flood. Now it is a regular occurrence- and in five years even watching tiny two weeks between attacks will have seemed like peace.

  124. Roger

    The points in your last para re the criminal justice system are valid, SInclair. However, Islamic jihadism cannot be treated simply as a criminal matter if it is to be defeated. Imprisoning jihadis after their acts of terror have been committed may satisfy justice (actually, only the death penalty would satisfy justice where lives are taken) but it does nothing to protect the public in the first instance. More bollards, along with other, more serious restrictions on the liberty of citizens, are not the answer either. Sterner policy measures are required in the areas of immigration, citizenship and multiculturalism to begin with. Intelligence can take us only so far in detecting terror plots. It cannot defend us against “low scale” random attacks such as London Bridge. If this sort of attack increases in number to become the new normal then the internment of suspected jihadis will seem an entirely reasonable idea. The first duty of government, after all, is to protect its citizens. Individuals who declare loyalty to a belief system that is alien to our culture and doesn’t recognise our laws have voluntarily placed themselves outside of the protections normally afforded to citizens and residents. The tolerance that marks Western liberalism, if it is to survive, must not tolerate those who wish to overthrow our way of life. It is they, rather than the innocent, who should bear the brunt of the state’s authority and power by having their liberties curtailed.

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