Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?

John Howard sought to protect ­religious freedom by social and education policy designed to safeguard communities from the predations of the state. As a con­ser­vative, he understood that without the foundation of religious freedom, civil society falls apart. For the same reason, he now advocates substantive protections for freedom of speech and religion in respect of same-sex marriage.

Hmmmmmmm. Is that the same John Howard who confiscated Australian firearms? Is he now worried that government will further erode personal freedoms? Fancy that.

That sharp painful on your backside John? That’s karma biting you on the arse.

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189 Responses to Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?

  1. stackja

    How is Martin Bryant today?

  2. C.L.

    Howard is a disgraceful hypocrite.
    He is personally responsible for the wholesale theft of property, the incarceration or police harassment of law-abiding Australians, to say nothing of countless warrantless police raids on citizens’ homes.

  3. NuThink

    Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?

    How many politicians do? It is generally not in their nature to even consider that they could be wrong.

  4. Dave in Marybrook

    Say it slowly, Sinc- Howard offered an amnesty for the surrender of automatic and some semi-automatic firearms.
    He did not “ban guns”, nor did he promise that his actions would eradicate gun crime.

  5. struth

    Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?

    Without Costello, you’d almost have called him a wet.

    Still, compared to the rabble we have now…………………………………………………

  6. pbw

    It pleases me to find a point of agreement with Sinc.

    I differ in the particulars.

    The same Howard who (in opposition at the time, IIRC) gently suggested that a large influx of Chinese immigrants might be difficult to integrate into the Oz mainstream, faced the usual “racist” firestorm, learned his lesson,and subsequently assiduously courted wealthy Hong Kong emmigrants, even offering (IIRC) dual citizenship!

    The same Howard who did nothing to counteract the slide of the ABC into a mindless propaganda bureau for left causes-de-jour.

    The same Howard who was blindsided by the Global Warming fabulists, because he neglected to construct and maintain a vigorous counter-narrative.

    These are related. The first made him wary of taking on the crazies, including the ABC. Perhaps he calculated that his government’s energies were better spent on fixing the economy. It worked well enough for him to be 2nd longest serving PM. But he was outflanked by the Long March.

    It’s the culture, stupid!

  7. Farmer Gez

    Not to mention the Medicare surcharge for us country folks so we could choose the non existent doctor of choice. Little prick!

  8. closeapproximation

    Howard is the least of your worries.

  9. Jo Smyth

    The choices, Howard, Rudd, Gillard, Turnbull , Shorten and you dare mock Howard. Maybe it was a seniors moment.

  10. anonandon

    Howard was not perfect but it would be good to have him back.

  11. .

    Farmer Gez
    #2558942, posted on November 20, 2017 at 9:52 am
    Not to mention the Medicare surcharge for us country folks so we could choose the non existent doctor of choice. Little prick!

    You choose to live there. Are you chained to a stump?

    Kak in die veld en betaal.

  12. Worker bee

    Also the same John Howard who stole 200 bill of farmers land and trees for his the climate change crap! What sort of country has no property rights?

  13. EvilElvis

    Fuck me swinging, the libertarians are really off their tits this week. Stick to your supposed profession Sinc, was the economy in better shape under Howard? Would you prefer any of Jo Smyth’s list above instead? Oh, yes. The great lefty Turnbull. I can’t believe libertarians get lumped in with conservatives on the so called ‘right’.

  14. Leo G

    For the same reason, he now advocates substantive protections for freedom of speech and religion in respect of same-sex marriage.

    Howard changed the Marriage Act unnecessarily to impose a narrower definition of marriage under the Act- a definition influenced by religious perceptions of fitness for purpose. We now have a reaction which threatens the religious adherence to sanctified marriage.
    Religious groups have differing perceptions of sanctified marriage which were stricter but not incompatible with the definition of marriage in the Act before Howard’s amendments.
    The situation arises where the new definition is incompatible, but Christians, Muslims and others don’t appear to be free to speak out against the effect on their religious freedoms.
    The action was by John Howard, the inevitable result is on others who do not believe in Howard’s reincarnation. How is that Karma?

  15. .

    EvilElvis
    #2559019, posted on November 20, 2017 at 10:38 am
    Fuck me swinging, the libertarians are really off their tits this week. Stick to your supposed profession Sinc, was the economy in better shape under Howard? Would you prefer any of Jo Smyth’s list above instead? Oh, yes. The great lefty Turnbull. I can’t believe libertarians get lumped in with conservatives on the so called ‘right’.

    Howard fucked up less than Gillard. The economy works in spite of government – do you think Howard deserves an award for being less of a vandal?

  16. EvilElvis

    Not at all dot, but what the fuck do you libertarians want?

  17. stackja

    Does ALP realise the errors of Gough and Paul?

  18. Neil

    Is that the same John Howard who confiscated Australian firearms?

    My understanding is that he banned certain types of weapons. And so he should have. There is no place in Australia for some types of weapons. Just like there should be bans against some types of dogs like pit bulls

  19. EvilElvis

    Freedom. What do you want?

    Freedom from government, to do as I choose, knowing that as a principled and moralistic individual I may be required to contribute to my fellow man, but that he may not abuse or take for granted that contribution.

  20. max

    The Constitution was established in order to strengthen the powers of the Federal government.

    The Constitution was deliberately designed to centralize power vastly beyond what the legitimate constitution — the Articles of Confederation — allowed. The Federal government in 1787 was weak. In 1788, it was vastly stronger.

    https://www.garynorth.com/public/7833.cfm

    maybe we can say same for Australian Constitution.

  21. .

    Neil
    #2559063, posted on November 20, 2017 at 11:05 am
    Is that the same John Howard who confiscated Australian firearms?

    My understanding is that he banned certain types of weapons. And so he should have. There is no place in Australia for some types of weapons. Just like there should be bans against some types of dogs like pit bulls

    We cannot embolden and encourage this brazen fascism.

  22. .

    We are never required morally to give anything. Altruism isn’t moral, benevolence is.

  23. Mique

    Give us a break. So Howard did some things that annoyed many people and he failed to do other things that he shoulda, coulda, woulda if only…

    As the old saw goes, politics is the art of the possible and then, as now, decisions such as the gun buyback and the “green” initiatives (much as I opposed them both) were probably the least that he could have done under the prevailing political climate. Labor and the Greens would have imposed much more draconian laws if confronted with the same situation. Anyone from the country knows full well that before the buy-back many if not most farming and grazing families had walls full of weapons accumulated sometimes over several generations. My own family possessed five – a 12-guage double-barrel shogun, two .303 rifles including one dating back to WWI, and two .22 rifles including one semi-automatic. At least one .22 and one .303 were superfluous.

    It was precisely those sorts of accumulations that fascilitated the Virginia Morse murderers and, years later, Martin Bryant’s murderous rampage. Putting the cleaners through these largely unnecessary, or redundant, collections was a long-overdue necessity.

  24. Tezza

    Sorry, Sinc, but that’s a ridiculous link to draw. Freedom of conscience, freedom of speech and freedom of religion have practically no connection at all to what types of firearms ordinary citizens are licensed to own.

    On a lesser point, Howard did not confiscate particular classes of weaponry. He bought them back. There is legitimate empirical argument about how effective that was, but it didn’t do any harm. You risk sounding like a gun nut, which rather lowers the tone of Catallaxy Files.

  25. Y

    This is bananas. Howard wasn’t perfect (good luck finding a politician who is) but he was 1000x better than the RGRAT disaster we’ve had since.

    FMD, how bitter do you have to be about SSM to slag off the one PM in the last 40 years to actually gave a f… about the budget (ok except 2007 – but even that is a paragon of parsimony compared to the current cluster).

  26. .

    It was precisely those sorts of accumulations that fascilitated the Virginia Morse murderers and, years later, Martin Bryant’s murderous rampage. Putting the cleaners through these largely unnecessary, or redundant, collections was a long-overdue necessity.

    Bryant’s guns were already illegal and illegally obtained.

    He was a nutcase and society chose to deinstitutionalise nutcases in the 1970s.

    Lo and behold, mass shootings began pretty much in the 1980s.

  27. .

    Y
    #2559111, posted on November 20, 2017 at 11:29 am
    This is bananas. Howard wasn’t perfect (good luck finding a politician who is) but he was 1000x better than the RGRAT disaster we’ve had since.

    FMD, how bitter do you have to be about SSM to slag off the one PM in the last 40 years to actually gave a f… about the budget (ok except 2007 – but even that is a paragon of parsimony compared to the current cluster).

    Sure, sure. DL admits to one mistake and then commenters want him to resign.

    FMD, how bitter do you have to be about SSM to slag off the one PM in the last 40 years to actually gave a f… about the budget

    The fact that he is the only one, and that this attribute that every responsible adult does by themselves, is seen as a claim to the government of Australia, is why we are (sourly) bitter.

  28. harry buttle

    yes Dave, Howard offered an amnesty. at gunpoint. take the amount we have determined your firearms are worth or expect the the full weight of the law. as other gangsters have said ‘I made them an offer they could not refuse’.

  29. Louis

    The idiot was here in Queensland helping Labor win the State election the other day.

    Every opportunity is taken to remind the PS that the LNP cut jobs and will do so again. The LNP are desperate to distance themselves from that disaster, especially as it resulted in an even more top heavy and Labor leaning PS (no effort was made to get rid of b.s. roles or Labor mates). So what does Howard do? He attacks the size of the QLD public service. Yes, the service is too big. Yes, the service is too costly and will eventually need to be cut as the State can not afford it. But if there is one sure way to get even more of the public service to vote Labor it’s to bring up job cuts right before the election. And, hey presto, there’s Howard doing exactly that. All the timing of a broken metronome.

  30. Neil

    Bryant’s guns were already illegal and illegally obtained.

    Not according to this article

    http://www.news.com.au/national/crime/martin-bryant-if-guns-werent-advertised-it-wouldnt-have-happened/news-story/be31e37a4c7e48584406c59000f23485

    Bryant didn’t have a gun licence, but was free to purchase guns, including an AR15 semiautomatic assault rifle, his preferred weapon at the mass shooting, from a licenced arms dealer.

  31. Mr skeletor

    We are not truly free unless we can purchase tanks for weekend driving!

  32. Warty

    This is my response to Colin’s response to Jennifer Oriel’s article, in The Australian:

    As you may be indicating, the fact that we embarked on a course that favoured ‘rights’, rather than a community ‘sense’ of duty and respect, has enabled activists to use ‘lawfare’ as a means to silencing views they disapprove of.
    The use of ‘lawfare’, by allowing only those with the financial means of pursuing it, undermines the tradition of ‘equality before the law’. So, when the process of seeking ‘restitution’ of basic freedoms becomes prohibitively expensive, then any PC establishment (with the means to pursuing retribution) is able to bring about a compliant, fearful community. Dissent is then pushed underground, allowing for the preparation of an equally destructive backlash.
    The feeling is that that backlash may manifest in the form of universal Sharia law, in other words another form of totalitarianism.

  33. .

    Subtle lies and half-truths, Neil. Journalists in Australia are top notch incompetents who almost never apologise for their mistakes.

    Skeletor – at the end of high school, a partnership to buy an ex Svoiet bloc BMP was almost formed. We had the cash, but could not decide how to divide up ownership and transfer/delivery.

    IIRC it was for 20-30k in Unique Cars.

    Now some idiots want 25.5k for an ex-interceptor XE GL Falcon (1984) on Gumtree!

  34. Empire

    Howard fucked up less than Gillard. The economy works in spite of government – do you think Howard deserves an award for being less of a vandal?

    Evidently, from the comments – yes.

    Some folks just can’t resist the urge to fellate the state.

  35. Viva

    Oh god Sinc, don’t get them started …..

  36. shady

    So Turnbull’s new name is karma?

  37. Neil

    Subtle lies and half-truths, Neil. Journalists in Australia are top notch incompetents who almost never apologise for their mistakes.

    First time i have heard that. I always thought the gun Bryant purchased was legal. So the gun shop owner was breaking the law by stocking that weapon?

    Furthermore i cannot understand the mentality of a person who wants to own a weapon like that. Since there are so many crazies out there they need to be banned. Same goes for pit bulls

  38. Bob of Brisbane

    Although I was a strong admirer of John Howard generally, I can’t help but think that his commitment to following the USA into the Iraq war was a factor that led not only to his loss of an election but also to the extraordinary loss of his own seat. Many people to whom I spoke at the time were concerned about Australia going to war in a foreign country for issues not even remotely connected to Australia, but it was not seriously pursued by the timid media. His government even prevailed upon one of its members to do what Colin Powell had been persuaded to do in the UN. He described in Parliament line chapter and verse all of Saddam Hussain’s alleged weapons of mass destruction and proudly produced a booklet about them, even though it was well known by those in the know at the time that the chemical weapons were non-existent and any biological weapons that had existed would have been well beyond their use-by-date. And the advice of inspector Hans Bliss was ignored. When talking about the Iraq war, sadly John Howard’s name is now connected with the names of Bush and Blair.

  39. Rayvic

    What has Sinc been drinking lately?

    He appears to be mustering support for our deceitful PM who desires to adopt the type of homosexual-activist totalitarianism prevailing in Canada following SSM legalisation some 10 years ago?

  40. EvilElvis

    We are never required morally to give anything. Altruism isn’t moral, benevolence is.

    At least it’s not as vague as ‘freedom’, William Wallace. Sorry, dot.

  41. Dr Faustus

    yes Dave, Howard offered an amnesty. at gunpoint. take the amount we have determined your firearms are worth or expect the the full weight of the law.

    And then made us pay for what we received in compensation by increasing the Medicare levy.

  42. Rococo Liberal

    Has SInc been taking stupid pills?
    In which world does he think that somehow it’s a bad idea to defend freedom of speech and religion?

  43. Littledozer

    Pretty sure the good samaritan in Texas bought that nut down with an AR 15.

  44. rickw

    Say it slowly, Sinc- Howard offered an amnesty for the surrender of automatic and some semi-automatic firearms.
    He did not “ban guns”, nor did he promise that his actions would eradicate gun crime.

    Nice one Tool, you understand virtually nothing.

  45. rickw

    Have Australian Governments treated Australians with more or less contempt since 1996?

  46. Empire

    Has SInc been taking stupid pills?
    In which world does he think that somehow it’s a bad idea to defend freedom of speech and religion?

    He doesn’t.

    You’re a lawyer, man of letters etc. How did you draw that conclusion?

  47. rickw

    Pretty sure the good samaritan in Texas bought that nut down with an AR 15.

    He did. In a firefight that would have left all but an exceptional bolt gunner dead.

  48. rickw

    My understanding is that he banned certain types of weapons. And so he should have. There is no place in Australia for some types of weapons. Just like there should be bans against some types of dogs like pit bulls

    Fuck off you limp wristed pussy.

  49. rickw

    Bryant didn’t have a gun licence, but was free to purchase guns, including an AR15 semiautomatic assault rifle, his preferred weapon at the mass shooting, from a licenced arms dealer.

    You believe this fake news?

  50. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    Howard was the most destructive PM since Federation.

    We will be paying the price of his stewardship for a hundred years more.

  51. Alfred

    What about protections for us atheists who cannot stand pillow biters?

  52. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    What about protections for us atheists who cannot stand pillow biters?

    Try Durex.

  53. Neil

    Fuck off you limp wristed pussy.

    Why would anybody want/need to own the type of weapon Bryant used? There is no place in society for weapons like that. And where do you draw the line? Tanks? Howitzers?

  54. Empire

    Dave in Marybrook
    #2558917, posted on November 20, 2017 at 9:34 am
    Say it slowly, Sinc- Howard offered an amnesty for the surrender of automatic and some semi-automatic firearms.
    He did not “ban guns”, nor did he promise that his actions would eradicate gun crime.

    Say it slowly Dave, “lefistry”.

    Firearms laws in all states were amended, more or less to a national standard, as result of Howard’s “leadership’. Those laws rendered formally legal firearms illegal. The amnesty was the compensation sweetener for the destruction of private property by government fiat.

    The justification for the change to and harmonisation of laws was Port Arthur i.e. a specific and horrific firearm crime. The will to do so existed prior and Attorneys General were agitating for restrictions, but without the catalyst and subsequent leadership of Howard, it wouldn’t have happened as it did. The carnage of PA gave the AGs great leverage to negotiate greater restrictions than otherwise may have been legislated.

    Many law abiding Australians found themselves treated like pariahs. Worse still, useful tools of the trade were removed from them. A compliance cost and regulation burden was imposed for those types of firearms deemed to be acceptable to the panty-wetting Howard and his band of authoritarian moochers.

    Today we see police “making law” with regards to firearm possession and use. We have never been closer to being a disarmed population.

    So let’s all gather around and jump to the defence of that great champion of freedom, the father of middle class welfare – John Winston Howard. Here, here.

  55. The BigBlueCat

    Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)
    #2559302, posted on November 20, 2017 at 1:32 pm
    Howard was the most destructive PM since Federation.

    We will be paying the price of his stewardship for a hundred years more.

    But we’ll be paying for Rudd/Gillard/Rudd (and all their hangers on – Wong, Plibbers, Albo, Swan, Burke, et al) for much, much longer and in ways even the current hard left will eventually regret …. at least the price we pay for Howard’s stewardship didn’t result in continuous and contiguous fiscal deficits our grandchildren will be paying for …

  56. .

    “No difference” between a $2500 semi-auto rifle (AR 15) and a 72 tonne, $9.3 mn tank (M1 Abrams) that can fire 25 lb HE shells over a distance of 8 km, has a range of 425 km, can take multiple RPG hits, along with 1 .50 cal MG with 900 rounds and two .30 cal MGs with 10,000 rounds?

    This kind of equivocation is insane.

  57. H B Bear

    Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?
    Without Costello, you’d almost have called him a wet.

    Howard (and Hyacinth Bucket) was a big spending, big government, social Conservative. He bought at least two elections with targeted free money and handouts.

  58. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    at least the price we pay for Howard’s stewardship didn’t result in continuous and contiguous fiscal deficits our grandchildren will be paying for …

    That’s exactly where you are wrong.

    Middle class welfare and the RET have destroyed our economy.

  59. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    Why shouldn’t a law abiding citizen own a tank?

  60. Neil

    Middle class welfare and the RET have destroyed our economy.

    That is garbage. Middle class welfare does not explain our current $40B budget deficits. neither does RET which would have happened no matter who was in power

  61. Dr Fred Lenin

    We are in the mess we have to put up with now because Howard tried to do a Mugabe and hang on to power ,it says a lot about him thatthe incopetent McKew
    could take the seat he had held for years ,silly leftoid alpbc twit with a big mouth and no brains beat him. He left it wide open for the madman rudd and giliards union mafia thrives to win . Had
    he done the right thing and retired gracefully ,Costello would have wiped the floor with the alp/ gangrene coalition .and we would be far better off today. Cracks = are now appearing in the alp/gangrene coalition,witness Northcore ,and the inner city seats alp has held forever . People are heartily sick of career politics and party apparatchiki,for very obvious reasons time for change in the civilised west,hopefully for the better

  62. Fisky

    Howard was a truly horrible prime minister. Took all the guns, destroyed federalism, totally distorted the economy and set up this horrible property-immigration-debt ponzi that is going to collapse.

  63. Siltstone

    this is a typical Sinc diversion…how’s the Potentially Great (TM) prime minister going?

  64. Neil

    We are in the mess we have to put up with now because Howard tried to do a Mugabe and hang on to power ,it says a lot about him thatthe incopetent McKew

    That is garbage to. Nobody would have defeated Rudd in 2007. Blame the Australian people who keep voting for politicians with sex appeal but are hopeless

  65. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    That is garbage to. Nobody would have defeated Rudd in 2007. Blame the Australian people who keep voting for politicians with sex appeal but are hopeless

    You think Kevin Rudd has sex appeal?

    You have some disturbing issues.

  66. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    Howard was a truly horrible prime minister. Took all the guns, destroyed federalism, totally distorted the economy and set up this horrible property-immigration-debt ponzi that is going to collapse.

    The GST has been one of the greatest disasters in economic history.

    A tax plan that incentivises de-industrialization and rewards failure.

  67. Neil

    You think Kevin Rudd has sex appeal?

    More than Howard. But it is time to start blaming the Australian people with greed in their hearts. How could anybody vote for Andrews in Victoria, Pluckaduck in QLD, the guy in South Australia?

  68. Mr skeletor

    Costello Was a limp wrists pussy who never had the balls for leadership. At least abbot for all his flaw she fights for it. Costello just spoked. Would have been an utter failure as a PM.

  69. Mr skeletor

    Sooked not spoked. I have to stop the lunchtime drinking.

  70. Snoopy

    Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?

    What difference – at this point, what difference does it make? *

    * HR Clinton

  71. Wal of Ipswich

    I am never disappointed by the stupidity of “libertarian” commentators here. Flaming Australia’s second best Prime Minister now. You trot out the filthy slurs & offer nothing achievable. I thank our lucky stars that Howard put in place world’s best gun controls: imagine weaponising the fascists on this blog!

  72. .

    Filthy slurs?

    He was terrible. Look at the growth in government spending.

    I thank our lucky stars that Howard put in place world’s best gun controls: imagine weaponising the fascists on this blog!

    They are terrible laws, Dr Don Weatherburn of BOSCAR once supported them and now admits they were useless, advocating liberties is not and can never be “fascism”.

    All genuine fascists (Hitler, Mussolini) have initiated gun control.

  73. Neil

    The GST has been one of the greatest disasters in economic history.

    GST is a better tax than most. You could argue a good idea would be to remove income tax and put 10% on everything.

  74. .

    The problem is the States cannot levy a VAT under the constitution, therefore, such an idea would centralise power yet more, despite the much less inefficient consumption tax system we’d have.

  75. stackja

    Kerry Packer did not have to pay income tax. KP did have to pay GST. GST on everything and no income tax.

  76. EvilElvis

    He was terrible. Look at the growth in government spending.

    He could afford it and now it’s his fault not one of the following government’s could control themselves?

  77. mh

    Nice try to deflect from your support for Malcolm Turnbull, Sinclair.

  78. Fisky

    You are a ridiculous individual, Wal of Ipswich. All of the worst fascists come from Ipswich.

  79. RobK

    For the most part, I’m with Dot on this one.

  80. C.L.

    I remember when Howard announced $1 billion for Indonesia after the tsunami.
    No recall of parliament, nothing. Just a doorstop. One billion dollars.
    He thought it was his money.

  81. .

    EvilElvis
    #2559424, posted on November 20, 2017 at 3:07 pm
    He was terrible. Look at the growth in government spending.

    He could afford it and now it’s his fault not one of the following government’s could control themselves?

    He wasn’t paying. WE were paying. The whole economy suffered. We have permanently lower standards of living now.

  82. Neil

    He was terrible. Look at the growth in government spending.

    I had a quick look and i did not see anything unusual. Now Gough increased spending by 20% one year, Perhaps you are making stuff up about Howard? Also maybe i am wrong.

  83. .

    You are wrong Neil.

    Howard’s last four years were just utterly irresponsible.

  84. mh

    Many of you here spend a lot of time online and also have a love of heavy artillery.

    Have you tried computer games? I’ve heard they are popular with young folks.

  85. Neil

    Howard’s last four years were just utterly irresponsible.

    Table 1 from the budget papers say you are wrong

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2016-17/content/bp1/html/bp1_bs10-03.htm

    The last 4 Howard/ Costello budgets were surpluses of $14B, $16B, $17B and $20B. He saved $67B in his last 4 budgets.

    You sound like the mad leftists i usually argue with. Perhaps you are full of hate because he took away your AK47?

  86. Wal of Ipswich

    Frisky ridicules me & besmirches my adopted home town when I defend John Howard.

    He/she may have been trying to be funny, though I have never detected wit before in contributions to this blog.

  87. .

    Yes Neil, unprecedented spending, huge surpluses and miserly tax cuts that didn’t even keep with inflation that his irresponsible spending engendered.

    We were being soaked.

    He could have given out 100 bn of tax cuts and STILL spent like a drunken pusser. The reinvestment and compounding of that capital (not 100 bn) over the time would have increased GDP by more than any potential loss precipitated by the GFC.

    His saving grace was WorkChoices. Any ongoing surplus in 2007 could have finance State abolition of payroll tax.

    Instead he chose to spend money on foreign aid and ALP style Keynesian “projects”.

  88. Phill

    In defence of Howard, at least he had a good sense of the mood of the people. Dot, if you rate him so low, who do you rate higher?

  89. Chris M

    What has Sinc been drinking lately?

    Baked? Or trolling….? Haha hard to say

  90. Eddystone

    John Howard, in “Lazarus Rising”, Chapter 22, “Seizing the Day On Guns”, gives his version of gun control debate that went on.

    Here is his reasoning as to why he favours strong gun control.

    In one of my headland speeches, on 6th June 1995, I had argued for tougher gun laws in Australia, having for some time believed that we should do all we could to avoid going down the terrible American path, where the ready availability of firearms of all descriptions was directly responsible for the very high murder rate in that country.

    So he has based his stance on a false premise (or more likely, IMO, accepted a false premise because it favoured his opinion.)

    Because;

    1) Firearms “of all descriptions” are not “readily available” in America. Gun laws vary from State to State. Automatic weapons are heavily regulated.

    2) The US murder rate is not “very high”.

    3) Murder rates both in the US and internationally are not correlated to firearm availability.

    Murder rates in the US drop when firearm availability for the law abiding is increased.

    As for avoiding the “terrible American path”, he is more responsible than anyone else for the politicisation of firearms ownership.

    In the book, Howard references
    “Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms: faster falls in firearm deaths, firearm suicides, and a decade without mass shootings”, Injury Prevention No 12, 2006, S Chapman, P Alpers, K Agho, M Jones

    Also Andre Leigh’s panel data analysis that claims his laws “saved 200 lives per year”.

    Unfortunately, when he wrote the book, he did not have available
    Melbourne Institute Working Paper Series Working Paper No. 17/08
    “The Australian Firearms Buyback and Its Effect on Gun Deaths”, Wang-Sheng Lee and Sandy Suardi

    This was their conclusion.

    Although gun buybacks appear to be a logical and sensible policy that helps to placate the public’s fears, the evidence so far suggests that in the Australian context, the high expenditure incurred to fund the 1996 gun buyback has not translated into any tangible reductions in terms of firearm deaths.

  91. .

    What you need to do Phill is lower your expectations.

    It isn’t a question of the best. It is a question of the worst and least worst.

  92. Neil

    Yes Neil, unprecedented spending, huge surpluses and miserly tax cuts that didn’t even keep with inflation that his irresponsible spending engendered.

    Here is the link again. Table 1 shows income and spending. There are no huge increases in spending

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2016-17/content/bp1/html/bp1_bs10-03.htm

    There was a 9% increase 2000-01 but that was preceded by a 1% increase. he saved $67B in his last 4 surplus budgets. The facts do not agree with your statement.

    Howard ran surplus budgets because he had spending under control.

  93. .

    Who do you think pays for budget surpluses or government debt?

    The government has no money.

    The facts do not agree with your statement.

    Incorrect, the last four years saw the most spending increases since 1990.

  94. EvilElvis

    Ffs dot, just compare the current environment and condition of the country with the relative prosperity of only 12 years ago. Imagine how much deeper in the mud we’d be minus the surpluses and if the government had been spending like drunken sailors. But that doesn’t matter, we can’t have a rollicking ol’ homo hoedown now because we can’t crack a few shots off with me rifle to celebrate.

  95. .

    Actually, we’re better off now.

    Economic growth happens IN SPITE OF the government, NOT BECAUSE OF the government.

    Would have we been better off not electing R-G-R? Of course.

    Costello would have been the PM and we’d have gay marriage by the bucketful.

    Your holophobia is just sheer bigotry. In Australia, people need guns for work. Law abiding citizens do not need to justify self-defence at all, if you presume they are free.

  96. Chris M

    In defence of Howard, at least he had a good sense of the mood of the people.

    He made the fatal mistake of not trusting the people and believing he knew better. He disliked ‘American gun culture’, OK I get that, but he failed to appreciate that Australians are very different to Americans and simply didn’t trust us. Not to mention the separate issue of politicians believing they can and should ‘shape our culture’.

  97. Phill

    OK Dot. I agree that Howard from time to time had his head up his arse. However, the likes of Keating, Gillard and Rudd transcended that by having their foot in their mouths AND their heads up their arses at the same time. Given that is a rare skill indeed, I guess you might want to rate them lower on your worse to worst scale.

  98. Neil

    Incorrect, the last four years saw the most spending increases since 1990.

    Spending increases according to Table 1 were 3.5%, 4.6%, 2.5% and 3.8%. A little high but not excessive. Now there was a 12.7% increase in spending under Rudd due to stimulus spending. That is excessive

  99. .

    Yes it is. The also Coalition started stimulus spending before they left office. They’re infected by Keynesian idiocy as well.

  100. BorisG

    Is that the same John Howard who confiscated Australian firearms?

    It is fine for a politician to be libertarian in one thing and statist in another. As I was reminded a number of times on cat, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher had a mixture of conservative and liberal policies.

    Purists only exist in theory.

  101. BorisG

    Also, it is interesting that Tony Abbott has also recently said that the US should do the same as Howard did in Australia.

  102. Neil

    The also Coalition started stimulus spending before they left office.

    Really? I think Costello would be dead against stimulus spending. Howard to. However they might spend extra to buy some votes like all politicians

    Facts are Howard spent less than he received as revenue so he had spending under control. You believe what U want to believe because U hate Howard

  103. .

    Really?

    Yes, really.

    Facts are Howard spent less than he received as revenue so he had spending under control. You believe what U want to believe because U hate Howard

    You’re denying that surpluses are funded by taxpayers.

    Loopy stuff.

  104. EvilElvis

    Not homophobic at all thanks dot. Just joining the dots (pardon the pun) between apparent libertarians biggest hot buttons of SSM and guns for everyone while living in the greatest of times now that John Winston is behind us. Best get on with opening the borders and decriminilising all drugs, we’ll hit utopia by Christmas!

  105. .

    HOLOPHOBIC

    You might want to Google that.

  106. EvilElvis

    I’m also ok with guns, dot. And homos with guns.

    Geez, hitting the phobic and bigot buttons there. Spoken like a true lefty.

  107. DM of WA

    Davidson is right for once.

    The Great Australian Gun Confiscation has come to symbolise the true nature of the relationship between the rulers and the ruled in in modern Australia. It shows that ordinary citizens are not to be trusted in our complex modern society but rather managed and protected like small children by a benevolent technocratic ruling class. Something like this would never have been countenanced here in the past even as recently as the sixties.

    It is also evidence of the fundamental difference between democracy as it is practised in America and other so-called democracies – including the UK and Australia. In America the people are sovereign and democracy is pervasive at every level of their society. It is inconceivable that Americans would ever just roll over and let the government take away their guns and most politicians there, knowing who is boss, would not be stupid enough to try.

  108. Chris

    Well, I think it redundant to join this thread.
    Had a lovely weekend on which I got some help to repair a duelling pistol for competition. The paperwork and exposure to regulatory hazards and costs to run such an innocuous hobby is absolutely crazy.

    So all you strangers that think the gun thing was once off and just particularly dangerous kinds of guns, are flat wrong. Every day it costs me time, money, emotional stress and danger to live with the consequences of 1996.

  109. DM of WA

    BorisG
    #2559561, posted on November 20, 2017 at 4:59 pm
    Also, it is interesting that Tony Abbott has also recently said that the US should do the same as Howard did in Australia.

    Why am I not surprised? I have never known a politician in Australia who desired less power over people rather than more power.

  110. Neil

    It shows that ordinary citizens are not to be trusted in our complex modern society but rather managed and protected like small children

    A year or 2 ago my neighbours got some pitbull pups. When i walked past their place the owners could tell that i was worried about the dogs. They assured me that they would lick me to death before they did any damage. Two months ago i was walking past their house, they had the dog out and it saw me, immediately started running at me and bit me on the leg. i can now no longer walk down my own street in peace.

    The owners cannot be trusted to look after their own dog and now i have to detour around my own street.

    Same goes for guns. If U want a gun get a musket. What reason does a citizen have for owning a AK47? Some types of dogs should be banned and same goes for some type of guns

  111. Empire GTHO Phase III

    HOLOPHOBIC

    You might want to Google that.

    Hoplophobic.

  112. .

    I don’t know Neil, I’m afraid of and you might kill someone with your bare hands, should we put you down?

  113. Defender of the faith

    When people ask why Australian politics is so fucked up ive taken to referring them here, as an example of how hopelessly incoherent the conservative dude has become. Reminds me of the Bill Hartley Victorian ALP.

  114. Chris

    I don’t know Neil, I’m afraid of and you might kill someone with your bare hands, should we put you down?

    Americans kill more people with bare hands and feet than Australians kill with all means of murder.
    Therefore, its still guns. Therefore, all Australian farmers, target shooters and rabbit hunters are evil threats to society and must be smashed via law and regulatory costs.
    Guys like Neil cant even figure out that they missed the causative issue of massacres in Australian society.

  115. Exit Stage Right

    Mr Davidson,

    “Does Howard now realise the error of his ways?”
    A better question would be “Does Professor Sinclair Davidson now realise that his man with potential greatness has now fizzled like the damp squib he always was?”
    Sinc, the man (because a man he is based on chromosome count only) is hopeless. We all knew that and the Godwin Grech business and Utegate confirmed his hopelessness. Don’t you realise that Lucy is running the show as our defacto PM. Maldeficient has never had an original thought about where we are at as a country and how we can fix our current decline into 3rd world status. The man is in constant contact with Wee Billie Shorten-Mal is a Labor plant FFS.
    I am staggered that a man of your intellect should be looking 10 years into the past and wondering about Little Johnny Howard. He’s gone, lets concentrate on now and the future which in my opinion looks particularly bleak, especially if our main focus is how to make 1-2% of the population feel good and “included”. Gays or Moozies, take your pick.

  116. Neil

    Therefore, all Australian farmers, target shooters and rabbit hunters are evil threats to society and must be smashed via law and regulatory costs.

    You guys remind me of the deceitful leftists i argue with. Why twist things? We are talking about banning certain types of weapons. Not all guns. Should a citizen be allowed to own a lion? Some people could control such an animal but most cannot. i cannot walk down my own street because my fools of neighbours got some pitbulls they thought they could control but they couldn’t

  117. .

    Nothing is being twisted by us. You are pretending to be a clueless idiot. Get the dog destroyed and walk around like cock of the walk. What a bizarre way to argue for gun control when you teed off with fake news.

  118. DM of WA

    Neil
    #2559688, posted on November 20, 2017 at 6:41 pm

    A year or 2 ago my neighbours got some pitbull pups. When i walked past their place the owners could tell that i was worried about the dogs. They assured me that they would lick me to death before they did any damage. Two months ago i was walking past their house, they had the dog out and it saw me, immediately started running at me and bit me on the leg. i can now no longer walk down my own street in peace.

    Would have been a happier outcome (for you) if you had been packing!

  119. BorisG

    I have never known a politician in Australia who desired less power over people rather than more power.

    Arguably TA is not looking to gain power. More broadly I think the vast majority of politicians around the world want more power. This includes gun enthusiasts like Trump.

  120. Tel

    i cannot walk down my own street because my fools of neighbours got some pitbulls they thought they could control but they couldn’t

    So there’s really no excuse then for you not supporting the right of concealed carry.

    Good to see you fervently arguing against yourself.

  121. BorisG

    While I accept the wider point about free society, I think even in the US there are limits on what guns you can own. Those that think guns are crucial for defence against oppressive government forget that this battle has been lost anyway. The government has nukes, tanks, missiles artillery and automatic guns. Citizens are not allowed to have any of these.

    All gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic. This will considerably reduced instances of mass shootings while still allow sports, self defence etc.

  122. .

    Handguns are pretty much semi-auto by definition Boris.

  123. .

    All gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic.

    Then ban all other guns. You realise someone with no criminal record in Australia cannot legally own or possess a gun for self-defence except if they get written permission from the State Police Commish?

    “Powerless to protect, not punish” comes to mind.

  124. Chris

    All gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic.

    No, they have a hammer and they see the gun owner as a nail, and they despise the nail and its values so they hit it with the hammer of the law.

  125. BorisG

    Then ban all other guns. You realise someone with no criminal record in Australia cannot legally own or possess a gun for self-defence except if they get written permission from the State Police Commish?

    Ok I agree that is wrong.

  126. BorisG

    All gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic.

    No, they have a hammer and they see the gun owner as a nail, and they despise the nail and its values so they hit it with the hammer of the law.

    Ok, all rational gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic.

  127. Neil

    So there’s really no excuse then for you not supporting the right of concealed carry.

    Good to see you fervently arguing against yourself.

    I am arguing that certain guns and certain dogs should be banned.

  128. Pedro the Ignorant

    I am arguing that certain guns and certain dogs should be banned.

    Of course you are, you good little German.

    Nobody needs pitbulls or handguns.

  129. .

    Ok, all rational gun control people want is to draw a line a bit more rationally, e.g., ban semi-automatic.

    No, virtually all handguns are semi-automatic. (Thus banning all of the most practical forms of self-defence). People need semi-automatics for work. Why can’t a farmer with no criminal record use a semi-auto shotgun to defend his family (from criminals or dangerous animals)?

    Any mass shooting could be done with a lever or bolt action anyway; banning guns doesn’t stop box cutters, arson or nor does it lock up loonies who do most of these terrible crimes. We deinstitutionalised mental illness in the 1970s and we started to get mass shootings in Australia in the 1980s.

  130. Pedro the Ignorant

    The government has nukes, tanks, missiles artillery and automatic guns. Citizens are not allowed to have any of these.

    sez Boris.

    Bullshit. There are thousands upon thousands of Americans who legally own tanks, missiles, and full auto firearms.

    Don’t forget legally owned fighter aircraft, PT boats, even a fully equipped submarine or two in private hands.
    Nukes might be a bit expensive for the average civilian, however.

    Australians are very obedient people. Nanny says “no”, we obey.

  131. EvilElvis

    We deinstitutionalised mental illness in the 1970s and we started to get mass shootings in Australia in the 1980s.

    Exactly.

    I’m not sure what John Winston’s role was in that though…

  132. Neil

    Nobody needs pitbulls or handguns.

    Who said handguns should be banned? Do you think your next door neighbour should be allowed to have a lion or tiger for protection?

  133. Pedro the Ignorant

    Do you think your next door neighbour should be allowed to have a lion or tiger for protection?

    sez Neil.

    Why not? As long as it doesn’t shit on my lawn or keep howling all night.

  134. harry buttle

    It takes a particularly high grade of idiot to equate guns with animals – guns are inert machinery, they cannot run out and bite you.

    Quick exercise in honesty for you Neil, if you should be unlucky enough to be around next time someone does the full allahhu ackbar and they are running at you with a machete, if someone nearby produces a handgun will you demand to see their Police/Military ID before they fire? and if they don’y have one will you demand they let you die?

  135. harry buttle

    Why should law abiding citizens want semi autos?

    Turkey established gun control in 1911. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 Million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, nearly 20 Million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Germany established gun control in 1938. From 1939 to 1945, 13 Million Jews and others, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 Million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
    Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, 1 Million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    Feel free to quibble on the numbers, but well north of 50 million people murdered by their own Govts in the last century, because they believed that they were safer if the Govt had control of the guns.

  136. Dave in Marybrook

    Yep, looks like the middle ground, where the art of the possible exists, is where Howard dominated.
    RickW, flesh out your abuse with something persuasive or forget about it.
    Empire, “lefistry“? L’fistry? Am I missing some je ne sais qua? If you’re seriously sore about lefties treating gun owners like pariahs, then you’d have to realise that they always did and they always will, so harden up. I for one was quite chuffed by the camaraderie and sense of community care that came out when we on the land handed in a few admittedly ridiculous rapid-fire rifles, and I know that the man on the street respected us for it too.

  137. .

    I for one was quite chuffed by the camaraderie and sense of community care that came out when we on the land handed in a few admittedly ridiculous rapid-fire rifles, and I know that the man on the street respected us for it too.

    Then they tried to ruin you with absurd environmental regulations? That doesn’t sound like respect.

  138. Infidel Tiger

    I for one was quite chuffed by the camaraderie and sense of community care that came out when we on the land handed in a few admittedly ridiculous rapid-fire rifles, and I know that the man on the street respected us for it too.

    Actually, those same people hate you and want to close your farm down.

  139. Mark A

    Dave in Marybrook
    #2560194, posted on November 21, 2017 at 12:04 am
    I for one was quite chuffed by the camaraderie and sense of community care that came out when we on the land handed in a few admittedly ridiculous rapid-fire rifles, and I know that the man on the street respected us for it too.

    And I’m sure you hang up your stockings for Santa Clause too.
    JC (not JC on this blog) how banal can you get?

  140. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Why not? As long as it doesn’t shit on my lawn or keep howling all night.

    I’d quite cheerfully have a lion for protection. They sleep sixteen hours a day, the lionesses do the hard work of hunting, and the fvcking junkies down the road would be terrified.

  141. Neil

    Quick exercise in honesty for you Neil

    There U go. Straight into land deceitful again. How many times does it have to be stated? The conversation is about what types of weapons people should be allowed to possess.

    You lot remind me of the deceitful lefties i usually argue with

  142. Dave in Marybrook

    Don’t you lot have any non-Pinkos in your life?
    There’s a perpetual whine from the born-to-rule Left- usually senators, and yes they’re definitely the anti-agriculture arseholes too- against all kinds of gun possession. They’ve consistently failed to rally the mob with burning brands and pitchforks- the huge majority of Oz realize that guns are a legitimate tool in agricultural areas. They also realise that handguns and assault rifles do not circulate through the same demographic.

  143. harry buttle

    Dave, you do realise that right now there is a major push on to reauthorise Qld farmers to use handguns, don’t you?

    also, for feral pig shooting, semi autos are far safer.

    btw, assault rifles are prohibited, they have been since before they were developed (by virtue of the fact that they are capable of automatic fire).

  144. rickw

    Why would anybody want/need to own the type of weapon Bryant used? There is no place in society for weapons like that. And where do you draw the line? Tanks? Howitzers?

    Why would anyone want to own the weapons that Bryant used? There is no place in society for weapons like that?

    A whole shitload of people who got knelt in front of a trench they just dug and shot in the back of the head by their government would fucking disagree with you.

    Europeans killed about 169 million of their own in the last 150 years, that’s the home of strict Gun Control. How many were killed by Guns in the USA for the same period?

    The apparent cost of lax gun laws bears no comparison to the cost of tough gun laws.

  145. harry buttle

    Stephen Willford stopped the Texas Church shooter with his AR-15 (same weapon type as Bryant used) – the church shooter was wearing a kevlar helmet and body armour.

    BTW, I wonder how many of the millions massacred by their own Govt were still thinking “this is [insert country here] in [insert year here], this can’t be happening” as they were led off to their execution.

  146. .

    Neil
    #2560326, posted on November 21, 2017 at 3:50 am
    Quick exercise in honesty for you Neil

    There U go. Straight into land deceitful again. How many times does it have to be stated? The conversation is about what types of weapons people should be allowed to possess.

    You lot remind me of the deceitful lefties i usually argue with

    That didn’t stop your fake news about Port Arthur.

  147. harry buttle

    I’m sorry Neil, I’ll rephrase –
    Quick exercise in honesty for you Neil, if you should be unlucky enough to be around next time someone does the full allahhu ackbar and they are running at you with a machete, if someone nearby produces a banned firearm, that you believe nobody in society should own, will you demand to see their Police/Military ID before they fire? and if they don’y have one will you demand they let you die?

    So, answer away.

  148. .

    They also realise that handguns and assault rifles do not circulate through the same demographic.

    Some professional shooters have category D rifles and some farmers are sporting (pistol) shooters.

  149. Neil

    if someone nearby produces a banned firearm, that you believe nobody in society should own

    Still in deceitful land. We are talking about banning some types of weapons. You really think citizens should be allowed to walk around carrying AK47s?

    That didn’t stop your fake news about Port Arthur.

    I just quoted a media article. Not my fault if it was fake. It said the gun purchased by Bryant was legally obtained. You say no? OK give me a link

  150. .

    I just told you most Australian presstitutes were lazy and incompetent shits who never apologise.

    “Give me a link”

    Pretty damned rude given you are making assertions and demanding a reduction in liberties.

    http://www.sportingshooter.com.au/news/the-nfa-the-big-trick-john-howard-played-on-australia

    The thing was firearms licensing had been in place in Tasmania since 1991. Martin Bryant did not possess a firearms licence. The SLR (incorrectly described by John Howard in his recent NY times piece as an SKS) used by Bryant was purchased illegally from a private individual in much the same way that illegally imported firearms are purchased by organised crime gangs to conduct their nightly drive-by raids in Western Sydney.

    The AR15 used in the Broad Arrow Cafe murders has a far more interesting history. This firearm was handed into police for destruction as part of an amnesty. Martin Bryant then allegedly purchased this firearm from a firearms dealer in Tasmania. The dealer in question was never found guilty of supplying a firearm to an individual without a firearms licence. All that is known for sure is that the AR15 was handed into the police for destruction and its next confirmed location was in the hands of Martin Bryant.

    John Howard was a little weasel.

    Wake up Neil, crack a red pill and stop swallowing fake news bill pills.

  151. Neil

    The article i linked to said this

    Bryant didn’t have a gun licence, but was free to purchase guns, including an AR15 semiautomatic assault rifle, his preferred weapon at the mass shooting, from a licenced arms dealer.

    Your article said Bryant purchased the gun illegally. OK but the gun was still legal was it not?

  152. harry buttle

    Neil, you are being deceitful. answer the question.

    Nobody said that the “banned firearm” had to be carried by someone walking around in public – professional feral animal controllers are allowed to own demilitarised AK-47s (automatic capability removed) as Cat D firearms, it is quite plausible that in such an attack, a feral pest controller could get his firearm from his vehicle (travelling on the way to or from a job) such as those for sale below and offer to save your life – however, it would be illegal for him to use that firearm in such a way as there are strict laws as to where and how it may be used.

    https://www.cleaverfirearms.com/Products.aspx?Category=Category%20C%20and%20D&Brand=316

    So, are you going to keep trying to bullshit your way out of acknowledging that you are a hypocrite?

    And BTW, yes I am fine with law abiding citizens owning an AK but that is because I’m not a fascist.

  153. .

    I posted the truth of the matter Neil and you can’t handle it.

  154. L.B.Loveday

    “confiscated Australian firearms”.
    For the increasing number who do not know, we were handsomely compensated for our firearms – in my case the payment for my 5-shot semi-automatic Magnum .44 was enough for me to buy a similar calibre 9-shot lever-action, which those old enough to have watched “The Rifleman” will know can be aimed and fired almost as fast as the semi-automatic, faster if the extra magazine capacity is factored in.
    Oh, and enough left over for a celebratory meal and fine wine.
    I wrote to Honest, but Foolish, John pointing that out, but “surprise, surprise”, did not get a reply.

  155. Neil

    And BTW, yes I am fine with law abiding citizens owning an AK but that is because I’m not a fascist.

    We are arguing about where we should draw the line. You say there should be no line i say there should be so we will never agree

  156. harry buttle

    No Neil, we are not arguing about where we should draw the line, you are desperately trying to reframe the question I asked you from “are you such a colossal hypocrite that you would deny others protection, but accept it yourself if it was available?” to “can I change the subject?”

    However, I see that you have dodged the question yet again and as such lets just leave it at you being a hypocritical, lying scumbag shall we?

  157. BorisG

    There are thousands upon thousands of Americans who legally own tanks, missiles, and full auto firearms.

    fully automatic are illegal. But seriously do you think these thousands upon thousands are a match for the US Armed Forces? or even the police?

  158. BorisG

    The Soviet Union established gun control in 1929. From 1929 to 1953, nearly 20 Million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    And was it any different prior to 1929?

    If you know Russian history, Bolsheviks assumed power in 1918, then killed millions in the civil war 1918-1920, and hundreds of thousands if not millions before 1929. And after 1920 no armed citizenry offered any resistance whatsoever.

    To think that citizens armed with semi-automatic weapons can resist a modern army is worse than lunacy.

  159. Neil

    No Neil, we are not arguing about where we should draw the line

    The thrust of the arguments before U jumped in was where do U draw the line or should there be a line.

  160. BorisG

    Give me an example where citizens armed with legally purchased weapons successfully resisted government oppression.

  161. .

    fully automatic are illegal

    In the Australian context, do you know what a “Category D” firearm is Boris?

  162. .

    The ridiculous thing is in an agricultural job as a genuine reason (in NSW), you can only have a Category A licence, category B requires a “special need”.

  163. harry buttle

    “Give me an example where citizens armed with legally purchased weapons successfully resisted government oppression.”

    The United States of America.

  164. harry buttle

    Give it a rest Neil, I asked you a simple question that you have repeatedly dodged, including by asking me an unrelated question in return, that I answered, no evasions, just answered it (for people with integrity that isn’t hard) – you are just a hypocrite who is too spineless to own it and now are just piling lies on your earlier lies and evasions to avoid it.
    I give up, don’t answer the question – by now anyone who cares knows the sort of creature you are.

  165. BorisG

    “Give me an example where citizens armed with legally purchased weapons successfully resisted government oppression.”

    The United States of America.

    Ah indeed that happened in the Civil War. We all know how it ended.

  166. BorisG

    In the Australian context, do you know what a “Category D” firearm is Boris?

    no I don’t and nor I care. In the US it is illegal to own automatic guns. This was highlighted in a recent debate after Las Vegas shooting, where a device was used to modify a semi so it could be used as automatic. They said automatic is illegal, but there is a loophole that this device designed to modify a semi is legal.

  167. Pedro the Ignorant

    In the US it is illegal to own automatic guns

    Bullshit.

    Fully automatic machine guns, sub machine guns, machine pistols etc may be legally purchased in the US.
    Buyers have to jump through some hoops from the Federal agencies and are hit with a hefty licence fee, but it is NOT illegal to own full auto firearms.

  168. Pedro the Ignorant

    Cliff notes on owning a legal, fully automatic machine gun in the USA.

    Machine Guns are Legal in USA

  169. rickw

    To think that citizens armed with semi-automatic weapons can resist a modern army is worse than lunacy.

    Afghanistan?

    Idiot.

    The whole point of armed citizens is that it never gets to that. Government never gets on the long slippery slope of treating citizens as subjects.

    I haven’t read upthread too far, but so far those in support of gun control are historically ignorant hoplophobes who unswervingly trust Government. Complete fuckwits.

    If you don’t like guns or being armed then fuck off and leave the rest of us alone.

  170. rickw

    no I don’t and nor I care. In the US it is illegal to own automatic guns. This was highlighted in a recent debate after Las Vegas shooting, where a device was used to modify a semi so it could be used as automatic. They said automatic is illegal, but there is a loophole that this device designed to modify a semi is legal.

    Google Knob Creek machine gun shoot you ignoramus.

    Fully automatic belt fed machineguns are legal. When the Soviet Union broke up you could buy 1910 Russian Maxims for around $2,000 USD. All you needed was the correct license.

  171. Eyrie

    John Howard was a small minded Fascist deadshit who misused his power to push his own personal irrational agenda on gun control.
    I will celebrate when I hear he has died. Besides it will get him off the taxpayer tit.

  172. harry buttle

    “Give me an example where citizens armed with legally purchased weapons successfully resisted government oppression.”

    The United States of America.

    “Ah indeed that happened in the Civil War. We all know how it ended.”

    Boris, history isn’t your thing is it?

    The United States of America overthrew the lawful Govt of King George III because he was considered a tyrant (taxation without representation).

  173. Neil

    Give it a rest Neil, I asked you a simple question that you have repeatedly dodged,

    the topic of the conversation was was where do U draw the line or should there be a line. You lot say no i say yes

    I am not even sure what your question was. Something about if an armed citizen with a bazooka in his suitcase saved my life from an armed terrorist would i agree with that. No i would not. I would rather be dead than live in a society where it was legal to own such weapons

  174. .

    I would rather be dead than live in a society where it was legal to own such weapons

    Oh good lord.

  175. Pedro the Ignorant

    I would rather be dead than live in a society where it was legal to own such weapons.

    sex Neil.

    Hand in your man card, you soft cock. FMD.

  176. harry buttle

    Neil, you are a collossal bullshit artist, a drama queen and an onanist of epic proportions, on the bright side as I have noted previously – it is legal to own an AK-47, AR-15 or L1A1 SLR as a Cat D firearm in Australia.

    So, have you chosen where you are moving to, or are you going the dramatic route here? (let me guess, you won’t follow through will you?)

    Either way, you would not be missed.

  177. .

    I would rather be dead than live in a society where it was legal to own such weapons.

    ARU Wallabies player David Pocock was less dramatic.

  178. Neil

    Neil, you are a collossal bullshit artist,

    Why? The topic was where do U draw the line as to what type of weapons a citizen should own. You say there should be no line i say there should be. One day it may be possible to shoot a nuclear device from the barrel of a gun. Do U think such weapons should be available to the general public?

  179. harry buttle

    Why would I answer your question Neil? I’ve already answered one of yours – now answer my original question and don’t pretend you don’t know what it was (it is still in this conversation). but we know you won’t as you are too spineless to even own your blatant hypocrisy.

  180. Neil

    I thought i did answer the question. And anyway U shifted the topic. The topic was should there be a limit on the types of weapons available to the general public. I say yes. I don’t have too much trouble with handguns and rifles for hunting/shooting/farmers.

  181. Aristogeiton

    Cryptocurrency: an idea so patently ridiculous only libertarians and economists could put any stock in it.

  182. .

    Yeah, that old Milton Freidman was a complete kook. I mean I’d rather read Modern Monetary Theory or listen to someone make a totally baseless comparison to “Tulipmania”, wouldn’t you?

  183. harry buttle

    Bullshit Neil, you have evaded the topic from the start and you are shifting the topic because you are a gutless hypocrite, but you already know that.
    It can’t be easy going through life knowing that all around you feel only contempt for you.

  184. .

    I don’t have too much trouble with handguns and rifles for hunting/shooting/farmers.

    Yes, Neil – and you’re going to kill yourself (apparently, please don’t) if Australians are allowed to produce content like Russia FPS does on YouTube.

  185. Neil

    Bullshit Neil, you have evaded the topic from the start and you are shifting the topic because you are a gutless hypocrite, but you already know that.

    I thought i answered that question. I would rather be dead than live in a society where my life was saved by a citizen who had a bazooka in his suitcase

  186. Aristogeiton

    Neil
    #2562102, posted on November 22, 2017 at 12:29 pm

    I would rather be dead than live in a society where it was legal to own such weapons

    Well Neil, you can buy a length of rope from any hardware store without a license.

    I disagree re: “Bazookas”. What we should really fear is AR15s with chainsaw bayonets.

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