The balkanisation of public policy

One of my greatest concerns in public policy is the tendency for each side to admit no error and to hold certain “truths” which are defended at any cost. There is no room for introspection in such an environment and it is no wonder that bipartisan economic reform is no longer feasible.

So on one side are those who have been campaigning for same sex marriage as if it is the most important thing in the world. This really is a first world problem – most gays live in fear of their lives and yet here in Australia the Parliament has decided that same sex marriage is more important than any other area of public policy. Those who opposed SSM have been held in contempt and labelled bigots etc. There was no effort to engage in an open debate; merely destroy one’s opponents seems to be the attitude.

The same can be said of many of the left’s pet causes where opposition to any of these marks one as an unacceptable person in civilised company.

On this blog we frequently see similar behaviour with respect to blogs supporting Donald Trump. Several bloggers admit no flaw in Trump and will punish and abuse any person who dares question Trump’s government and his abilities and his fitness for office.

This is simply childish. No individual is perfect, but when reading the hagiographies about Trump on this blog one would think that Trump is the messiah. Anyone – like me – who dares critique Trump must by definition be in a pact with the devil. Well that’s the argument effectively made and it is foolish indeed.

What I see on both sides is the infantilisation of public policy. We are becoming progressively more tribal – wanting to belong to one tribe or another and that requires the acceptance of doctrine which may never be challenged unless you wish to be excommunicated.

If this trend continues the outlook for Australia is dire. The people of Australia are being let down by boorish behaviour with third rate politicians behaving as if they were in first year university. Bettina Arndt is correct in today’s Australian: the preponderance of young females to leftist causes because of their humanities studies such as gender relations etc. has led to them being perpetually aggrieved and perpetually ‘victims’.

Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end. If you can’t accept the flaws in Trump and argue rationally rather than dogmatically you really have no place in conservative thought. Because such behaviour is the antitheses of western critical thinking and logic.

Cultural warriors for Trump are no better than those idiots chanting and disrupting speakers at universities.

About Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus

I'm a retired general who occasionally gets called back to save the republic before returning to my plough.
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148 Responses to The balkanisation of public policy

  1. Rabz

    Fatty Trump may not be the Messiah, or even a very naughty boy, but he’s just about the West’s last figure of any substance (no pun intended).

    Had he not run for election, let alone won, the West would have been stuffed. Shrillary was just too hideous to contemplate as president.

    So, I’ll settle for el-Trumpo, irrespective of his flaws.

  2. Neville

    Nobody of any common sense would claim Trump has no flaws – all humans do. Nobody of any common sense would claim all of Trump’s executive actions will have no undesired consequences – all human actions do. But overall, it would seem to me that Trump is simply working through the job of clearing out the Aegean Stable that US politics and public policy has become over the last few Presidencies. However, as it is early days yet, comparatively, perhaps it would be wise to wait for another three years, or perhaps seven, to see to what extent, or not, the US situation changes – for the better, or for the worse. Said simply, LQC, I remain yet to be convinced he is a “false Messiah”.

  3. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus

    Steve Kates certainly says that Trump has no flaws. I have not read a single word from Steve that criticises Trump.

  4. Phill

    You are making the same fundamental mistake that many others make. It is not about conservatives versus progressives. It never was. It is about disrupting the self appointed global elite and their never ending drive to make slaves of everyone else. Now of course most of that pack of scumbags are autocratic leftists, but many are not. They are the self elected patrician class. Of course Trump has flaws, but the flaws of those that oppose him are demonstrably worse. Rampant criminality, when done under the blind eye if not the direct support of the media, is still criminality. A highly politicised upper layer of critical law enforcement agencies, by political appointees, for political purposes, used to target the political opposition, is utterly wrong. Yet people like you don’t seem to see it. If Trump cant correct any of this, then who can?

  5. C.L.

    Trump is the most libertarian president in modern history.

  6. Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully …

    followed by some abuse(with no supporting evidence or argument) –

    Cultural warriors for Trump are no better than those idiots chanting and disrupting speakers at universities..

    Look around and observe what rational behaviour has achieved for the conservative side.

    Observe the dominance of the left. Achieved, in part, with abuse and dogma.

  7. Mr Black

    The problem is LQC, that you think you’re cleverer than we are. You’re not. Your thinking and your talking points are 30 years out of date and I suspect they originate from about the time you were at university, enjoying the company of people who all thought they were cleverer than everyone else. The world has changed and passed you by.

  8. A Lurker

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    Ahem, Conservatives have tried being rational and respectful and look where its got us…
    I’m fine with staying rational, but I think being respectful is now way past its use-by-date.
    Remember the saying – “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
    Our current method isn’t working, in fact we’re being driven backwards, losing ground at every step.
    I suggest we try a different tactic.

    If you can’t accept the flaws in Trump and argue rationally rather than dogmatically you really have no place in conservative thought.

    ‘No True Scotsman’ fallacy alert?

  9. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus

    Trump is not libertarian. He is protectionist. How CL can you think that being protectionist is libertarian? An Mr Black I don’t think I’m cleverer that you. Perhaps you’re right though that the world has changed for the worse where rational thinking is out the door and we are all cultural warriors. I’m happy to not be part of that.

  10. Malcolm

    LQC, while I share your dislike of Trump I think you have rocks in your head if you think we can just be friendly arguers to win. We must destroy the left and leave no stone unturned to attack the left at their weakest points. This is a war.

  11. Perhaps you’re right though that the world has changed for the worse where rational thinking is out the door …

    No doubt. Reason is gawn!

    Chat with a few of a younger generation and a few people outside of the book club. You might be surprised.

    The age of reason has passed.

  12. RobK

    I’m with Rabz on this one.

  13. Garry

    The pendulum has swung way to far to the left. Those on the right are starting to stir and the over correction when it finally (hopefully) arrives will be enormous. Trump is part of the beginnings of that over correction and has become a beacon on the hill for those on the hard right. The left won’t give an inch and the right must be prepared to match!

  14. Mr Black

    Rational thinking. You mean people who agree with you are rational and people who do not are irrational. Is this really how you intend to waste our time on a lovely Saturday morning? Trump gets results for the right. All the libertarians in the world can’t get so much as a post office named. I’m going to hitch my wagon to the guy who does, not the guy who talks.

  15. Eyrie

    Yep, what a FINE POTUS Trump is. Last defender of western values. This is a battle for the future of humanity and freedom. No quarter, no mercy and NO PRISONERS! As Jerry Pournelle used to say “Warre, Warre to the knife and the knife to the hilt”.

  16. herodotus

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end.

    Nobody’s perfect, and it’d be a complete surprise if the political system three up a perfect candidate, either in the USA or here. The voters have to work with what they’re offered, which usually means a choice between awful and not too bad, but rarely between not too bad and great.

    Conservatives have been channelled towards dead ends by the combined efforts of leftists (from all over society but particularly those in media and education) and the ineffective efforts of so-called conservatives in the parliaments. Obama and Hillary were certainly leading towards a dead end. Labor and Greens here are just as bad.

    If Trump can’t do a decent fight back I’m sure none of the other candidates in recent history could do better, or even as well. Our lot can’t point to much of value in the fight back stakes since the wharf disputes, border control and IR reform under Howard.

  17. Makka

    The problem is LQC, that you think you’re cleverer than we are. You’re not.

    LQC has been banging this drum since the nomination win. He thinks that by being nice and behaving acceptably is going to win. It hasn’t and it definitely won’t, not against the leftist forces lined up against the people and Trump.

    That LQC is on here regularly demeaning and debasing Trump’s obvious victories over the left is testimony enough where this quisling’s sentiments lie. LQC is simply a cuck libertarian whose ideas have essentially gone nowhere towards beating the left and a long way towards aiding their victories.

  18. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus
    #2580009, posted on December 9, 2017 at 11:14 am

    Steve Kates certainly says that Trump has no flaws. I have not read a single word from Steve that criticises Trump.

    Cut n paste or link to anywhere Kates says Trump has no flaws LCQ.
    Just because someone doesn’t criticise doesn’t ipso facto mean they believe no flaws.

    What I see on both sides is the infantilisation of public policy. We are becoming progressively more tribal – wanting to belong to one tribe or another and that requires the acceptance of doctrine which may never be challenged unless you wish to be excommunicated.

    Once upon a time the only difference between one side and the other was cigs and alcohol being taxed a few extra cents or blue collars getting a few extra benefits. Now it’s much more than that. Now profound changes are implemented such as speech policing, changes to hundreds of years of cultural norms and even fast changes to the demographics of ones neighbourhoods and country (see Sweden, France, Birmingham Lakemba etc etc).

    So to state that politics is more tribal is to state the bleeding obvious. But to state that we should gracefully be accepting of the other side is being just as naive about what’s going on as those blue haired lezzos chanting sh!t about their vaginas. LCQ the vagina chanta.

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    And there it is. That statement wouldn’t be out of place if it came out of the mouth of Bob Brown or Tanya Plibbers or Elizabeth Warren. “War is not the answer, lets have a conversation” etc etc while the other side is literally killing our way of life. Loose-ious Chamberlain Quitter-cus. QED

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end. If you can’t accept the flaws in Trump and argue rationally rather than dogmatically you really have no place in conservative thought. Because such behaviour is the antitheses of western critical thinking and logic.

    Cultural warriors for Trump are no better than those idiots chanting and disrupting speakers at universities.

    I’ll take how many insults can you fit in a couple of short sentences for $200 thanks Alex.

    Yet this fool is lecturing us about rationality, critical thinking and logic, and claims to know who belongs in the conservative thought side of the equation.
    I’ll now take slap my forehead for $100 thanks Alex.

  19. Leo G

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end.

    False fears about false saviour misleading false conservatives to a false conclusion?

  20. Dr Fred Lenin

    Trump has the left stuffed ,he’s a thinker and doer not a narxist theoretician ,socialists never do constructive things ,they only know how to destroy everything they are involved in ,most look at the worlds socialist governments and politicians ,not an achiever amongst them ,that is why the ally withcronu[y capitalists ,they actually know how to de things ,even if it is criminal mDont try to tell me that Nazi lover soros is not a criminal should have been tried at Nurenberg with his dad and the other national Socialist scum . I am amazed at the way he treats the lying msm like the pretentious idiots he knows they are ,he’s the only world leader who doesn’t fear the communist media ,Go Donald .

  21. George

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end.
    Perhaps you should concede that your own statement is dogmatic and hardly open to discussion? Pot-kettle etc.

  22. Joe

    LQC has been banging this drum since the nomination win.

    LCQ is a GLOBALIST the very enemy The President has called out. LCQ is justifiably terrified of the result.

  23. Senile Old Guy

    LQC: Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully …

    IR: followed by some abuse(with no supporting evidence or argument) –

    “followed by some abuse(with no supporting evidence or argument)” sums up most LQC posts here. Aside from troll bait, I don’t know why these posts are put up.

  24. Zatara

    Several bloggers admit no flaw in Trump and will punish and abuse any person who dares question Trump’s government and his abilities and his fitness for office.

    And some bloggers, even some with thread posting privileges, invariably say false things and make foolish and unsupported claims regarding Trump.

    Like children, they need to be corrected and quite likely chastised for their recalcitrant manner.

    The correctors never enjoy doing so of course but understand it’s for the child’s own good.

  25. RobK

    As I see it, Trump has only used protectionism as a threat to counter foreign manipulation. His boarder issues are merely enforcing existing laws which are required because welfare pressures exist. He has no jurisdiction on the other side of the border. He cannot save the world…especially if he cannot be allowed to get the US into shape to show the way. He is no messiah as such but he is able to lead by way of example. If he can restore some faith in national pride and common dignity, unite a nation in prosperity, he will have achieved a lot. Others can watch and learn.

  26. calli

    On this blog we frequently see similar behaviour with respect to blogs supporting Donald Trump. Several bloggers admit no flaw in Trump and will punish and abuse any person who dares question Trump’s government and his abilities and his fitness for office.

    I can only count one. And he does not “punish and abuse any person who dares question”.

    If you mean commenters, again I can think of only one. And that one has moved on to Twitter after they went too far.

  27. mh

    Several bloggers admit no flaw in Trump and will punish and abuse any person who dares question Trump’s government and his abilities and his fitness for office.

    Meaning commenters on this website or the people who post articles? Either/or, name three.

    A flaw in Donald Trump is definitely his indulgent diet. The free world needs Trump to be there until November 2024, so Donald needs to cut down on the pizza, Maccas and KFC. And diet coke doesn’t cancel the others out.

  28. Nobody of any common sense would claim Trump has no flaws – all humans do. Nobody of any common sense would claim all of Trump’s executive actions will have no undesired consequences – all human actions do. But overall, it would seem to me that Trump is simply working through the job of clearing out the Aegean Stable that US politics and public policy has become over the last few Presidencies.

    Right Neville, so he’s not perfect, but he is Hercules. Hmm.

    You are making the same fundamental mistake that many others make. It is not about conservatives versus progressives. It never was. It is about disrupting the self appointed global elite and their never ending drive to make slaves of everyone else.

    Phill, how can you believe that Trump is against the global elite when his administration is full of Goldman Sachs alums and other billionaires, who just voted themselves (through their bought proxies) a massive tax cut just like the one that caused the Great Depression? This is Trump’s most blatant lie. He is the best American avatar of the interests of the global elite since the Rockefellers. Trump himself stands to benefit by the billions from the tax bill. Where is his infrastructure bill? Nowhere to be seen, because it was all a lie to begin with. He is not a populist in any operational sense of the word.

  29. EvilElvis

    LQC is simply a cuck libertarian whose ideas have essentially gone nowhere towards beating the left and a long way towards aiding their victories.

    Well libertarians do agree on several issues with the left, mainly social issues, so they get the odd small win and then try to suck back to the right with their economic freedom and gun rights schtick. Fucking pathetic.

  30. Makka

    Lol, you know you’re on a winner LQC with mUnty backing you. Libertarians and the leftfilth are always happy bedfellows.

  31. Joe

    Well pretend or agent provocateur or LEFT libertarians do agree on several issues with the left,…

    FIFY

  32. Leo G

    Perhaps you should concede that your own statement is dogmatic and hardly open to discussion? Pot-kettle etc.

    Please, tell me what prescribed doctrine my “statement” asserts, other than a tautology is implied by the negation of a contradiction?

  33. MPH

    This piece starts by trying to set the author up as an independent arbiter of right and wrong and goes downhill from there. The author also ropes ‘both sides’ together when clearly it is the modern left who have flushed everything down the toilet -with glee, I might add, aided and abetted by the worst media performance outside of a totalitarian propoganda department.

    One thing I have learned from the Neo-Marxists is the idea of a ‘construct’. Now not everything is a construct but that doesn’t mean nothing is. Certainly this dreamy political landscape of polite discourse and concensus strikes me as one of those constructs. And if LQC hasn’t seen enough history by now to know that the left have no interest in this world, in fact always pursue quite the opposite, then I’m not sure how to change his mind. Certainly it has taken the right (and in fact the traditional left) many decades of fumbling retreat to catch on, and finally voted in a leader of the free world to stop the rot.

  34. Mater

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    “Right after liberal Democrats, the most dangerous politicians are country club Republicans” – Thomas Sowell

    From Milo’s book:

    “No, conservatives lost in arenas that were more important than political politics: art, academia, and pop culture. Despite momentary political victories, the values spread by Hollywood eventually influence the ballots cast in voting booths. Conservatives lost culture, and until we win it back our political victories will only be temporary setbacks against the steady advance of leftist principles.
    Actually, they didn’t simply lose the culture war. It’s worse than that. The truth is, they never even bothered to fight.”

    The American Conservative’s lament that the “graceful, dignified” Jen Bush has been beaten by the tactics of a man who “lacks character” sums up the attitude of DCCs to elections, and to contests in general: it’s better to lose with dignity than to win without it. In the Republican primaries, they most get their wish, although Jen Bush’s entreaties for audiences to “please clap” for him were anything but dignified.
    The conservative sense of fair play is disastrous when it comes to fighting democrats. Elections are not college debates, no matter how much Ted Cruz might wish it so. They are not fought with facts and opinions, but with sloganeering, media spin, opposition research, and other cloak-and-dagger tactics. In politics, victory goes to those with cunning, mettle and deviousness, not those who have facts and principles on their side. It helps to have facts and principles on your side (as conservative usually do), but they aren’t enough to win.”

  35. amortiser

    For 30 years I was a free market fundamentalist and on many issues I still am. The biggest departure has been in relation to immigration. The premise on immigration was that people are rational and the “melting pot” concept worked. This was true for postwar immigration into this country up until the 1980s.

    European and Asian immigration into this country was undoubtably beneficial. However, the rise in identity politics and the adoption of so called multiculturalism has been seriously detrimental. The addition of people whose culture is not only different but anathema to western values has been a disaster and a developing existential threat to the security of all citizens.

    Trump has called time on this serious mistake and is doing something about it to the plaudits of the citizens of his country. Abbott was overwhelming elected here espousing a similar platform. The blowback is now on in earnest. Abbott has been consigned to oblivion and all guns are trained on Trump.

    I still have a serious issue with him in respect to his protectionist threats. The interesting aspect of this is that it is largely a threat. To date, Trump has made serious inroads into the stifling levels of regulation and has just passed a very good tax bill. These measures will make US business more competitive and prosperous eliminating any need for counterproductive protectionist measures. “Need” is not the right word. An economy needs protectionist measures like a hole in the head.

    On balance, Trump has been a breath of fresh air on almost every front. He has been in office for just on a year and the signs are positive on almost every empirical measure.

    Maybe LCQ can tell us where he has actually been a “bust”.

  36. munty (Bachelor of Rakology, Grad. Dip. in Advanced Rakology)

  37. Bruce of Newcastle

    Lucius, did you just join the Democrat Party? Republicans quite like him.
    All the bad poll numbers for Trump are because Dems think he is Cthulhu.

  38. mh

    The Golden One currently speaking in Florida

  39. Tom

    LQC is simply a cuck libertarian whose ideas have essentially gone nowhere towards beating the left and a long way towards aiding their victories.

    +1,000,000.

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    Not only are you a troll, but a simpleton. If you argue rationally with the left, you get nothing back but irrational abuse.

    The left doesn’t do argument, just infantile feelings.

    What you are asking for is for the non-left to surrender to the left (and their bowtie-wearing libertarian cucks).

    I’m quite enjoying watching Trump’s Washington revolution, which is neutering the left and slowly destroying the Deep State shadow government.

    Politically, he is a force of nature that can only be stopped by an assassin’s bullet. So do you feel lucky, punk? Go on. Make our day getting arrested by the Secret Service.

  40. Iampeter

    I wouldn’t characterize what’s happening as “balkanization” of public policy but simply a complete implosion of political discourse. No one really understands or has any position on what is or isn’t the proper role of government and without this political discussion is nonsensical.

    So its not that there are two sides who aren’t admitting error (e.g. someone who wants to regulate marriage is in principle no different to someone who wants to regulate emissions) but rather different types of collectivists pushing incoherent positions with no understanding of politics and with no ability to reason.

    That’s why its just a mess of people yelling at each other and slowly escalating to more and more open violence. That’s what happens when you abandon reason and when none of your positions are even remotely properly thought through.

    Ultimately without any ideas or ability to reason all people have left is ad hominem and finally, violence.

  41. classical_hero

    I rate this article 5 out 5 rakes.

    I don’t know what happened earlier with the previous post.

  42. Phill

    Monty, you are right. However, my firm belief that the world will only improve when the last surviving socialist is strangled with the entrails of the last surviving communist clouds my views. Thanks for correcting me.

  43. Biota

    Of this you can be sure, that if Trump had any serious failings we would know about it many times over. Every crevice of his life has been run through the left’s electron microscope and the best they have come up with is that he tips too much food into the gold fish bowl (copying his host), gets knocked back trying to hold hands with his wife or stumbles on a couple of words.

  44. So its not that there are two sides who aren’t admitting error (e.g. someone who wants to regulate marriage is in principle no different to someone who wants to regulate emissions) but rather different types of collectivists pushing incoherent positions with no understanding of politics and with no ability to reason.

    What ‘regulating’ marriage, of course, meant was simply using the well-accepted definition of marriage, as reflected in the common law since time immmorial, to define the relationship for the purposes of public policy, and beyond that nothing at all. So it is incredible stupid to imagine that the use of this definition was ‘collectivist’ in any political sense.

  45. Leigh Lowe

    One of my greatest concerns in public policy is the tendency for each side to admit no error and to hold certain “truths” which are defended at any cost. 

    It’s mirror time, fuckwit.

  46. Tel

    What ‘regulating’ marriage, of course, meant was simply using the well-accepted definition of marriage, as reflected in the common law since time immemorial, to define the relationship for the purposes of public policy, and beyond that nothing at all.

    That’s not quite correct.

    Marriage is one type of contract between people, primarily designed for producing children, and also for social stability. However, for a very long time it was also imposed by the church as social control… it was not a choice of one possible contract but you were free to choose something else… no, if you had children outside marriage you would be open to various types of persecution, and if you were gay you also got persecuted, and so forth. It’s not an accident that the gay community have massive chips on their shoulders.

    That being said, when the Christians stopped such persecution is when these various anti-Christian groups started gaining political momentum… no good deed goes unpunished. You would think that people interested in various fringe alternative lifestyles would say thanks or something. Especially when you look at the kind of things going on in Indonesia, Malaysia, most of the Middle East, etc.

  47. Joe

    One of my greatest concerns in public policy is the tendency for each side to admit no error and to hold certain “truths” which are defended at any cost.

    I freely admit:
    It was wrong to open the borders to immigrants on the say so of our capitalist businesses that want slaves instead of employees.

    It was wrong to open the borders to cheap manufactured goods on the say so of two retailers and the complicit destruction of our manufacturing base.

    It was wrong of us to believe that politicians on our side of politics would stand up for our rights.

    It was wrong of us to take academics at face value, when in fact they were working for our destruction all along.

    It was wrong of us to believe that self destructive green policies were seen as ludicrous suicide self flagellation of the idle rich, instead of the calm considered inevitable polices that they appear to have sold themselves as.

    It was wrong of us to believe in democracy.

    There, that make it any better?

  48. Oh come on

    Lucy’s problem is that he is the photographic negative of what he decries. Yes, the Bill Mitchell school of Trump advocacy is ridiculous – that the man can do no wrong and if he ever did do wrong it was actually an incredibly strategic move to outwit his opponents, interpreting and twisting facts and details in such a way so as to construct this bizarre reality.

    Lucy, OTOH, is from the liberal-left-MSM-NeverTrump school of thought(lessness), which is the exact reverse of the above – Trump can do no right, and anything he did do right wasn’t actually him, or wasn’t really all that good anyway, or they deliberately misrepresent any Trump achievements in the most negative, uncharitable and cynical way possible, or they just completely ignore what Trump does right and focus solely on Trump’s missteps and amplifying these one thousandfold, twisting the facts or just making them up in the process.

    This is you, Lucy. This is what you do. You are no better than what you criticise; in fact, you *are* what you criticise. Look in a mirror some time.

  49. Oh come on

    I do understand why conservatives – particularly social conservatives – didn’t naturally rally to Trump. I understand why the NeverTrumper movement formed. It was perfectly reasonable to view Trump as a NY liberal, and a phony Christian, and be deeply suspicious of him. However, I do not understand why it continues to exist. Consider the case of Ben Shapiro, a NeverTrumper prior to the election. Why not take the Shapiro position of ‘calling balls and strikes’ after Trump entered office? The NeverTrumpers, however, have chosen to reside in an ideological delusion where Trump can *never* do right, no matter how hard reality assails them. You’d expect this from the left, and in fact, as we can see from the likes of Bill Kristol (who is tweeting about how Trump is bringing out his inner socialist and his inner feminist), some ‘rock ribbed conservatives’ are actually choosing to embrace the left rather than concede that Trump might actually be doing some good things. This is you, Lucy. On the matter of Trump, you are behaving like a leftist.

  50. max

    That being said, when the Christians stopped such persecution …..

    Tel, are you saying that orphanages and homes for shunned unmarried mothers were Christian persecution ?

    And when it comes to gays where was the Christian persecution ? The Catechism is clear about homosexuality as a disorder but enjoins love as the Catholic response to individuals afflicted in that way ( afflicted is my word, not the church’s).

  51. craig

    LCQ, you are either with me or you’re not. If you decide that the world doesn’t need DJT for his flawed personality, then it is you who is playing politics and playing the man where as I play the ball and believe he is western civilizations last hope.

    For example, I had a BBQ at my place last week and a new fellow turned up, friend of a friend, and he started trump bashing in the first 30 minutes of being there. I grabbed him by the collar and threw him outside my door and told him to **** off. Shame about the wife, she was a hottie.

    You see LCQ, its not about DJT, its about fighting for western civilization values and culture and if you are not prepared to stand up for such things, then you are my enemy.

  52. Warty

    There is this sense of Balkanisation, Lucius is right there. And no, Trump is not the Messiah, he’s just a naughty little boy.
    But in all seriousness, Lucius is welcome to criticise Trump, though he needs to put up specific criticisms so that they can be addressed. We are so used to strings of MSM attacks on Trump, many of which are negative for the sake of being negative, or simply wide of the mark, that the rest of us tend to bat them back. I mean, look at the ridicule and hysteria over Trump slurring ‘America’ at the end of his ‘Jerusalem’ speech. ‘Liberal’ comedians had a field day (albeit a field covered in cow pats).
    So Lucius, what don’t you like about the naughty little boy, and we’ll tell you what we like (let me list the 62 ways).

  53. Bruce of Newcastle

    It’s actually quite true that policy is being Balkanized. That is because all of society is being Balkanized.

    America’s Extreme Social Fragmentation Exposed In 3 Simple Charts

    The Left especially has gone far-left in the last 2 decades. There’s been somewhat of a move right by the Right, but not as pronounced.

    The Balkans were Balkanized substantially because of religion: as a result of the Ottoman Empire and colonization by muslims. The Balkanization of America is also because of religion: the new Green-Progressive religion where you must believe 101 mutually inconsistent things or be anathemised.

    All you have to do is list all the things that Green-Progessives believe then disprove them. Which is easy to do. That is why lefties are so shouty – they can’t prevent that falsification process, yet they can’t admit their policies don’t work. If they did that they’d be booted out as a heretic.

    And that, since the Left controls almost all public sector jobs, can have a serious personal cost.

  54. struth

    TDS.
    LQC.

    A bob each way, coward.
    A man of no integrity who will not chose a position.
    With the great things Trump has done ignored he puts those impressed and willing to say out loud and strong that they are, in the same basket as antifa.
    What a fucking gutless, pompous jerk.
    You put us in with Antifa, fuckhead, you deserve all the abuse you get.

    Cultural warriors for Trump are no better than those idiots chanting and disrupting speakers at universities.

    You pompous buffoon.

    . Anyone – like me – who dares critique Trump must by definition be in a pact with the devil. Well that’s the argument effectively made and it is foolish indeed.

    You have never constructively criticised Trump, you have called him names (much like the antifa kiddies you think we behave like) and totally ignored anything good that we have pointed out he has done.
    You are full of yourself and have such a flawed weak character, you are prone to very easily catch TDS.

    You are not right wing and conservative.
    You are some trite aloof wanker who’s only mission in life is to distance yourself from what you perceive as the great unwashed.
    You believe in nothing.

  55. Oh come on

    Craig, that’s just stupid. You are using the same logic that drives the modern left and jihadi types – ie. you either agree with me or you’re evil. Not good company to be in.

    Incidentally, if someone is allowed onto the property of another as a guest and subsequently the property owner attempts to physically throw them out without first making a verbal demand that they leave and giving them a reasonable opportunity to comply, then that sounds to me like assault. If you tried that on with me, for instance, I’d deck you and reasonably claim self defence. You don’t get to make unwanted physical contact with me just because you don’t like what I say, period. Doesn’t matter where this takes place.

  56. struth

    Craig, that’s just stupid. You are using the same logic that drives the modern left and jihadi types – ie. you either agree with me or you’re evil. Not good company to be in.

    OCO, if it’s a general position and it is absolutely fine.
    If I say that my position is that raping women is wrong and if you disagree with me you are evil, nothing wrong there.
    Sex with children and safe schools program is evil shit.

    This isn’t the days of yesteryear.
    We have let the left go too far.
    Nothing wrong with calling evil where you see it.

  57. struth

    Craig, that’s just stupid. You are using the same logic that drives the modern left and jihadi types – ie. you either agree with me or you’re evil. Not good company to be in.

    Thank god the allied forces of WW2 were not as pacifist as OCO.

  58. Oh come on

    Struth, being opposed to Trump is not an inherently evil, civilisation-destroying perpective. If you think it is, then you who has the problem.

  59. Oh come on

    You are being a hysterical fool, struth.

  60. Oh come on

    Do not cloak yourself in false decency, struth. Nothing I have said is ‘pacifist’, and equating Craig’s position with that of the allies in WW2 is just ignorant and ill-considered.

  61. struth

    Struth, being opposed to Trump is not an inherently evil, civilisation-destroying perpective. If you think it is, then you who has the problem.

    In the situation the world finds itself in, make your case.

  62. Gilas

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end.

    .. and so HRC should have been elected instead, just to steady the ship eh!? LQC?
    Because ANYTHING would have been better than Trump eh!? LQC?
    Because Trump is doing everything wrong eh!? LQC?
    Because HRC would have changed the course of the Marxist cancer invading the West eh!? LQC?

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated.

    .. so as to continue in their relentless march to victory against the Marxist scum !? LQC?
    Evidence of these victories is everywhere eh!? LQC?
    So, let’s continue with this winning strategy eh!? LQC?

    Seriously, the stupidity, irrationality and denial present in your arguments is of World-Championship standard. Congratulations!

    I can understanf Montz and other leftards trolling this blog, for they have nothing else in their life.

    But what about you?

  63. Oh come on

    I do not need to make any case. I am not saying Trump is wrong. What I am saying is that it’s possible for someone to oppose Trump and not be evil. They could just simply be wrong.

  64. struth

    I have obviously tickled your funny bone OCO.

    This is a fight against cultural Marxism, and it’s self proclaimed goal of bringing down the west.
    Trump is fighting it.
    Pick your side.
    One side is pure evil.

  65. Oh come on

    Not really, struth. You’re just being illogical.

  66. struth

    There were many soldiers that fought for the Nazis that were not personally evil.
    They were still on the side of evil.
    They were still the enemy.

    Anyway, craig said “enemy” he didn’t mention evil, and if you aren’t on the side of western civilisation, what are you?
    Answer

    The enemy.

  67. Oh come on

    Pick your side.
    One side is pure evil.

    Again, this is the exact rationale that antifa and jihadis use to justify their actions.

    Not supporting Trump does not put you on the side of pure evil. Calm the hell down.

  68. struth

    Thanks for your nothing responses OCO.

    Craig is exactly right.

    LQC needs to understand the goose he is.
    He needs to understand what is at stake these days, and that he doesn’t have the luxury of using politics as a tool to promote himself by dribbling shit.
    He will be called on it.

  69. struth

    Again, this is the exact rationale that antifa and jihadis use to justify their actions.

    So did Winston Churchill.
    Was he wrong to do so?

  70. Fisky

    Trump is a false messiah who is leading many so-called conservatives down a dead end. If you can’t accept the flaws in Trump and argue rationally rather than dogmatically you really have no place in conservative thought. Because such behaviour is the antitheses of western critical thinking and logic.

    I do accept the flaws in Trump. At the same time, he is making astonishing progress at rolling back Leftism across the full spectrum. Policy-wise he is the most conservative President since the 1920s, but no President has ever destroyed so many people at the commanding heights of popular culture than Trump. This has been a bloodbath of media and Hollywood that will impact on the Democrats’ financial and organisational abilities for years to come.

  71. Fisky

    You go through the list of achievements:
    -recognising Jerusalem
    -completely eradicating ISIS
    -quitting the Paris accord, UNESCO, the UN migration pact, etc
    -massive tax cuts
    -refugee arrivals down nearly 90%
    -travel ban
    -Gorsuch

    It’s been a big year!

  72. Oh come on

    So struth, you think that it is impossible for someone to support Western civilisation and its values while opposing Trump’s Presidency? I don’t think you’ve thought about your position very deeply.

  73. Not supporting Trump does not put you on the side of pure evil. Calm the hell down.

    Hmm. Not sure. It certainly puts you in with the Chamberlains.
    Probably puts you in with Stalin supporters.
    Harden up OCO. A civil war treats harshly those who can’t pick a side.

  74. Fisky

    Lucius on the other thread –

    Two terms of DJT as POTUS would consign Western Civilisation to history.

  75. struth

    Get this you thick fucking idiot, LQC.
    Trump agrees with my politics.
    I haven’t changed my politics for Trump.
    He is no messiah, because I am my own man.
    You insult true right wing people by treating us as “followers” like leftists such as yourself.
    You are a low grade troll that shouldn’t have posting rights on a blog such as this.
    You never have anything constructive to say.

  76. Gilas

    craig
    #2580177, posted on December 9, 2017 at 2:05 pm

    Maybe a bit harsh, but generally well done!

    Oh come on
    #2580197, posted on December 9, 2017 at 2:43 pm

    What a f%&#kwit!

  77. one old bruce

    There are no “sides”.

  78. Thank you Fisk. I was just about to paste that.
    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2017/12/09/sunshine-conservatives-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-2580131

    A link for the readers convenience.

    Au Cointreau. Two terms of DJT is probably necessary for the longterm survival of what remains of American civilization.

  79. Oh come on

    So did Winston Churchill.
    Was he wrong to do so?

    Yes, but he actually was fighting Hitler. The antifa morons think they’re fighting “literally Hitler” and this false belief allows them to reassure themselves that the ends justify the means. Jihadis make the same spurious calculation when they kill everyone who doesn’t agree with them. You also make the exact same miscalculation by branding everyone who doesn’t believe that Trump is the saviour of Western civilisation as evil, the enemy, and deserving of treatment befitting an evil enemy.

    Churchill’s calculation wrt to dealing with the Nazis was accurate and proportionate to the threat they posed. The calculations made by antifa, jihadis and yourself in classifying and dealing with those you’ve identified as opponents are grossly wrong. That’s the difference between you and Churchill.

  80. Oh come on

    IR, you are living up to your handle. Gilas is not even worth bothering with.

  81. struth

    So struth, you think that it is impossible for someone to support Western civilisation and its values while opposing Trump’s Presidency? I don’t think you’ve thought about your position very deeply.

    Yep, I do.
    He’s all we’ve got.
    As I said, give me the alternative.
    I get shitty about this, as you can tell, because it is the death wish flaw many on the right have.
    It, to me, is born through cowardice.
    They shit themselves if we actually start winning.
    Instead of having the basic decency to say, you know what, he might even seem like a bit of a goose but he’s on our side and it looks like NO ONE ELSE IS, so for the good of my civilisation, I should give him all the support I can, Cuckservatives can’t sort that basic thought process out, and I can only see fear as the cause.
    Looking at the socialist forces of the entire world rallied against him, the forces in his own party, and now after 11 months of proven right wing action, I would recommend to you that for the good of our civilisation, indeed not just for the good, but it’s very survival, the choice of supporting Trump or not should be a fairly easy choice to make.
    You don’t have the luxury of your position anymore OCO.

  82. struth

    Yes, but he actually was fighting Hitler

    This is a pretty stupid remark.

    Ask yourself why

  83. OCO, I’m taking yours as an invitation.

    Josef, Adolph, Winston and Harry all showed that the best way to reduce opposition is to reduce their numbers (by whatever means).

    Choose a side.

  84. Makka

    Two terms of DJT as POTUS would consign Western Civilisation to history.

    Autism , leftism and cowardice. Three very pertinent qualities of libertarians I’m afraid. When there is someone in power who actually is able to fight for western values, the libertarians come out from behind cover to berate and undermine him. That’s the real power of Trump- exposing one’s real enemies.

  85. Gilas

    Oh come on
    #2580254, posted on December 9, 2017 at 3:36 pm

    Don’t flatter yourself, it wasn’t a prelude for discussion.

  86. struth

    Time out.
    Made my point.

  87. Empire GTHO Phase III

    This is simply childish. No individual is perfect, but when reading the hagiographies about Trump on this blog one would think that Trump is the messiah. Anyone – like me – who dares critique Trump must by definition be in a pact with the devil. Well that’s the argument effectively made and it is foolish indeed.

    You need to get with the program and understand why people dispise you. Pleading for your betters not to mock you is weak. Weaklings have nothing to contribute to this debate.

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    Industrial grade wrongology. You know nothing of the left. You don’t understand how we arrived at this point and you most certainly have zero understanding of how to reverse the trajectory.

    Hubris and mediocrity are never a winning combination and yet that’s all you bring to the table.

  88. Oh come on

    Simply being wrong about something doesn’t make you evil. Not being logical about something doesn’t make you evil. People are wrong and illogical all the time. Look, a very large chunk – probably the larger part – of global anti-Trump sentiment can be attributed to superficial cosmetic factors. Trump doesn’t look and sound like a politician, doesn’t have the background of a politician. That’s a huge dealbreaker for most people. They want to be told beautiful lies by a man with a soothing voice who they believe is better than them (see Obama, Slick Willy). Oh, and the rest of the world hates Republicans, so that counts against Trump, too.

    Do I think these people – the vast majority of the human race – are credulous sheep when it comes to Trump? When it comes to US politics, are they unsophisticated dim bulbs; ring-kissing, elite-worshipping tribalist peons? Yes, most of them are all of these things. Are they all evil? No, clearly most of them are not. Some are. But most of them are just not very well informed.

  89. Marc Bloch – “Misunderstanding of the present is the inevitable consequence of ignorance of the past.”
    In support of the GTHO.

  90. Oh come on

    You had no point to begin with, Gilas. Struth, you are a simpleton, no further discussion required. IR, not every disagreement is analogous to WW2.

  91. Marriage is one type of contract between people, primarily designed for producing children, and also for social stability. However, for a very long time it was also imposed by the church as social control… it was not a choice of one possible contract but you were free to choose something else… no, if you had children outside marriage you would be open to various types of persecution, and if you were gay you also got persecuted, and so forth. It’s not an accident that the gay community have massive chips on their shoulders.

    Marriage was ‘imposed’ by the Church? You would be prosecuted by the Church if you had children outside of marriage? Do you have any evidence for these claims?

  92. Makka

    But most of them are just not very well informed.

    That is really no reason to be sympathetic to them. If they choose to be dumb lemmings and misunderstand their roles as useful idiots then the way to educate them is to be treated with the contempt they richly deserve – in the political sense. No, they may not be evil as individuals. However, due to their braindead qualities they enable evil in the form of the left to flourish. That is reason enough to treat them with scorn.

    Incidentally, Trump’s style – which is what LQC and others are wetting the bed about – is irrelevant. It’s results that matter which is exactly what the left is entirely focused on. Trump must MUST be doing a marvellous job simply by observing those so energetically aligned against him. A collection of some of the biggest lowlife scum breathing on this planet.

  93. Michel Lasouris

    I thought that the wrong questions were asked, right at the beginning of the current campaign to normalise the Un-normal. I expected an honest interchange between ‘A’ ( 98% of hetero normative Australians) and ‘B’9 the 25 of those who prefer a perversion of normal sexual relationships)…
    A ” so you want to be married?”
    B ” yes”
    A ” why?”
    B because I want all the benefits that normal couples have”
    A ” OK ,so if you get every one of those; inheritance, family benefits etc., will you be content?
    B ” No, I want to be Married”
    A ” OK, so if all the normal couples call themselves, say, Hetero Nornatives” instead, would you be happy?
    B ” No, because that is something the Hetero Normatioves will have, that we just can’t take from them”
    A ” OK. I now understand. You just want to cause the Normals trouble and great expense then?
    B ” Now you’re talking my language

  94. Michel Lasouris

    oooops….’B’9the 25, should read. ‘B’ the 2% + minor other mis-types….

  95. Makka

    Michel Lasouris
    #2580279, posted on December 9, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    “A ” OK. I now understand. You just want to cause the Normals trouble and great expense then?”

    They strive to be normal. They know they aren’t normal. We know they aren’t normal. No legislation can ever change that.

    The Soviets spent untold billions, killed untold millions and ploughed 70 years of brainwashing into millions of their population over several generations , trying to convince everyone that the USSR was a workers paradise. That religion and faith were wrong. That everyone was equal. Of course it didn’t work. It did however make their lives a living hell.

    Two poofters “consummating” their “marriage” isn’t and will never be normal.

  96. Stan

    You are deluded. No-one thinks that Trump is perfect, not even himself. (Unlike Hillary.) But as it is a choice between him and Clinton, then Trump every time. And we do need to defend him and go on the attack on his behalf at every opportunity because of what is at stake.

  97. Fisky

    Conservatives need to ignore the libertarian movement. It’s a useless cause that is an auxiliary force of the Left. Probably designed that way from the beginning, but even if it wasn’t that’s what it is now. A Leftist pincer movement.

  98. Tel

    Marriage was ‘imposed’ by the Church? You would be prosecuted by the Church if you had children outside of marriage? Do you have any evidence for these claims?

    You are jiggering around what I said. The lack of alternative options was imposed by the church. Marriage existed for a long time as ONE POSSIBLE OPTION but that’s a completely different thing to making marriage the ONLY OPTION YOU GET TO CHOOSE.

  99. Craig

    OCO,

    I never said ‘evil’, I said ‘enemy’. Clear difference, get it right.

    He was given an option and he chose to stand his ground, so I threw him out. I would definitely do the same to you and making physical threats on a post is meaningless, I get the clear impression that you would run a mile shitting your pants if you EVER got into a physical confrontational situation.

  100. struth

    Struth, you are a simpleton, no further discussion required

    You’re too kind.
    Somehow, looking at your responses here, I don’t think I have too much to worry about.

    And for some reason you never really piss me off.

  101. Fisky

    Massive reduction in refugee numbers under Trump, especially Muslim “refugees”. Yuge cut!

    Instead, the number of refugees admitted to the country has plummeted. In the five weeks after the ban was lifted, 40 percent fewer people were allowed in than in the last five weeks it was in place, according to a Reuters analysis of State Department data. That plunge has gone almost unnoticed.

    As he lifted the ban, Trump instituted new rules for tougher vetting of applicants and also effectively halted, at least for now, the entry of refugees from 11 countries deemed as high risk. The latter move has contributed significantly to the precipitous drop in the number of refugees being admitted.

    The data shows that the Trump administration’s new restrictions have proven to be a far greater barrier to refugees than even his temporary ban, which was limited in scope by the Supreme Court.

    The State Department data shows that the kind of refugees being allowed in has also changed. A far smaller portion are Muslim. When the ban was in place they made up a quarter of all refugees. Now that it has been lifted they represent just under 10 percent.

  102. Fisky

    Reducing the number of refugees entering a country is probably the greatest economic stimulus you can have, leaving aside Trump’s yuge corporate tax cut. There will be an explosion in wealth and prosperity thanks to Trump’s wise counter-immigration policies!

  103. Fisky

    Good lord, these people are insane.

    Mark Krikorian‏Verified account @MarkSKrikorian
    10h10 hours ago

    Sarah Silverman recalls being ‘scared, ‘shaken’ when boyfriend flew U.S. flag: ‘I was freaking out’ http://go.shr.lc/2j7zvfA Get this woman a prime-time speaking slot at the next Democrat convention!

  104. EvilElvis

    Conservatives need to ignore the libertarian movement. It’s a useless cause that is an auxiliary force of the Left. Probably designed that way from the beginning, but even if it wasn’t that’s what it is now. A Leftist pincer movement.

    Agreed

  105. classical_hero

    OCO, all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

  106. struth

    The similarity between libertarians and Leftists is they desire a utopia that in reality cannot, will not, and never has existed.
    They may be different utopias but both are only found in La La Land.

  107. Joe

    They may be different utopias but both are only found in La La Land.

    As opposed to struth who believes in a RightLa La land that also has never existed.

    At least the Libertarians went back to first principles to attempt to build the foundation of a free society freely interacting. Whereas the leftists have never believed in a free society, unless you are free to bow before your betters. Yes, both utopias are indeed equivalent, just like all apples are oranges.

  108. Fisky

    At least the Libertarians went back to first principles to attempt to build the foundation of a free society freely interacting.

    The freest societies that libertarians imagine themselves to be emulating had very severe moral taboos and even laws restricting much of the behaviour that libertarians want to legalise.

  109. classical_hero

    Libertarians are delusional freaks. They seem to have this idea of some sort of utopia out there and everyone will just come to their senses.

  110. struth

    As opposed to struth who believes in a RightLa La land that also has never existed.

    The United States for much of it’s existence?

  111. Joe

    The freest societies that libertarians imagine themselves to be emulating had very severe moral taboos and even laws restricting much of the behaviour that libertarians want to legalise.

    What does that mean? A not B therefore a = b.

    You have said it yourself, the Libertarians were taken over by the left, and I agree with you. But to denigrate the ideas because they have been perverted is the same as denigrating “Thou shalt not kill” because we let murderers go free.

  112. struth

    At least the Libertarians went back to first principles to attempt to build the foundation of a free society freely interacting. Whereas the leftists have never believed in a free society, unless you are free to bow before your betters. Yes, both utopias are indeed equivalent, just like all apples are oranges.

    I actually said they were different.
    Just that both are political wet dreams.

  113. Joe

    The United States for much of it’s existence?

    Rubbish. The USA is most definitely NOT a utopia. Get a grip and get back to attacking the leftists. You know, those who want to EXTINGUISH the rights of people.

  114. struth

    Rubbish. The USA is most definitely NOT a utopia

    It was the closest the world ever came to one, and to the extent that it isn’t now it is due to leftism.

  115. struth

    Joe, I have always attacked the idiocy of theories the likes of dot think are great, you know, like no borders and pay a migration fee(only good guys are rich) and just take away welfare.
    Mussies aren’t a problem and blah blah, ………………………….stupid and dangerous, and unrealistic, immature and dangerous political wet dreams.

  116. Joe

    It was the closest the world ever came to one, and to the extent that it isn’t now it is due to leftism.

    No it never was and to claim it was, even close, shows a complete contempt for history.

    It was better (and so was Australia) back then, but it was no utopia, not even close. That’s why the left had room to do what they have done. If it was a utopia, no one would have voted for the left.

  117. Howard Hill

    Libertarians and conservatives must act rationally and argue respectfully if this is to be defeated. That is the way to win, not to get in the trenches and adopt the methods of the left.

    This is the very issue that’s got us into the mess we’re in. It’s flawed logic.

    When someone is punching me in the face, I’m not simply going to stand there and explain why their actions are wrong! What moron does that?

  118. What moron does that?

    I don’t know. There is so many to choose from.

  119. struth

    Joe you put words in my mouth to argue against.

    I never said the USA was a Utopia.

    However it definitely was the greatest right wing success story the world has ever seen, because it had low taxes and small unintrusive government.

    People legally and illegally bust their balls to get there.
    This in comparison to a Libertarian wet dream that as I said, has not, will not and cannot, ever exist, let alone be a success.

  120. Joe

    However it definitely was the greatest right wing success story the world has ever seen, because it had low taxes and small unintrusive government.

    Ok, I’ll give you that, so long as it was before Wilson. Back then it was operated on the very principles of Libertarianism that you say are leftist. You know, maximum rights of citizens, States wth rights, Minimal Federal powers.

  121. struth

    Basically libertarian is a word that sounds better than anarchist.
    Both the left and libertarians want to tear down , institutionally, what now exists.

    The left corrupt our institutions from the inside and the libertarians don’t care that it’s happening.

  122. struth

    Back then it was operated on the very principles of Libertarianism that you say are leftist.

    I have never said libertarian is leftist.
    See above.
    They are total opposites.

  123. Joe

    The left corrupt our institutions from the inside and the libertarians don’t care conservatives are delighted that it’s happening.

    Whats more, it happened on the Conservatives watch. The Libertarians WERE NEVER IN POWER.

  124. struth

    Be careful who you call a conservative.
    I hope you are not referring to the Australian Liberal party.

  125. Joe

    Is this a 5 min or a 15 min argument?
    By the way thanks for the conversation.

  126. struth

    No worries.
    Just that libertarianism can never happen successfully.
    It never has and never will.

    We need a level of DEMOCRATIC control, nations and borders.
    I believe you guys are too far toward anarchy which plays into your total opposites (politically) hands and helps their agenda to wreck the joint,, even though that’s the last thing you want.
    It’s a lack of a grip on reality.
    Now must go.

  127. Oh come on

    Makka, I don’t disagree with you. I’d rather see if I can talk people around before I scorn them, but whatever. Horses for courses. Certainly, at some point, a decision needs to be made about whether you want to have anything to do with someone who has proven themselves to be incorrigibly idiotic.

    This is not what I am talking about, though. It’s the presumption of malevolence attributed to anti-Trump types, which is being used by some here to justify violence against these same people, as if the situation is analogous to the way fascism was confronted and destroyed in WW2. Which, of course, it isn’t. Some anti-Trump types are undoubtedly malevolent, sure. But most aren’t. Most people in general don’t have a very strong rationale for the beliefs they hold.

    Now, regarding the ‘you’re with us or against us’ mob here – I won’t say they’re enemies of Western civilisation, but by claiming we must defend our civilisation by adopting the very tactics that Western enlightenment values explicitly rejected, they certainly aren’t the children of Western civilisation. They aren’t enemies of it, either – that’s a bridge too far. But they don’t seem to understand it very well at all.

  128. classical_hero

    The left and libertarians are both on the same side of the spectrum socially. Let that sink in.

  129. Oh come on

    OCO, all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

    And this is apropos of…?

  130. Oh come on

    He was given an option and he chose to stand his ground, so I threw him out

    Great, Craig. You omitted this detail from your original comment though, and that was what I was responding to.

  131. Tel

    However it definitely was the greatest right wing success story the world has ever seen, because it had low taxes and small unintrusive government.

    Back when they were a confederation of states you mean?

  132. EvilElvis

    I believe you guys are too far toward anarchy which plays into your total opposites (politically) hands and helps their agenda to wreck the joint

    Come on struth, what could go wrong in a society with uncontrolled immigration, rampant homo hoedowns mixed with a little jihadism in an economically prosperous country where everyone has a gun!

  133. Leigh Lowe

    Balkanisation.
    This is the disparaging term used when free thinking conservatives refuse to prostrate themselves before the altar of elitist consensus.

  134. BorisG

    If Trump can’t do a decent fight back I’m sure none of the other candidates in recent history could do better, or even as well.

    Ronald Reagan? Stephen Harper?

  135. Oh come on

    Anyway, struth and other friends, let’s bury the hatchet, put our minor differences aside and settle on something we can all sign up to – Lucy’s a pseudo-intellectual dummy and fervent anti-Trump ideologue, whose pathological hatred of Trump makes his warped perspective utterly impervious to any unwelcome intrusions of reality. I’m surprised CNN haven’t hired him.

  136. W Hogg

    massive tax cut just like the one that caused the Great Depression

    mOron to the rescue. Just as Lucy tries to seize the “stupidest troll” award he’s put back in his place.

  137. W Hogg

    Mind you, calling T666 a protectionist was pretty stupid. It’s the libertarian equivalent of screeching “wacist” or “far right” – other like minded regards nod and acknowledge the instruction that no further discussion is needed. The fact that T666 has advanced free trade by calling out abusive trade practices is irrelevant.

  138. LordAzrael

    Kates doesn’t need to point out flaws – you have done this adnaeseum without admitting and of the positives of Trump. You can’t get the point that Trump the candidate did not exist in a vacuum – he did not have to be perfect he just had to be better than the alternative.

  139. Lucius, how’s your job application for CNN?

    Your gratuitous swipe at Trump is an exercise in ignorance.

    If you knew your politics, you’d know that Marxism uses pure partisanship as a political strategy without peer.

    The use of rational argument as an ethical approach was discarded 80 years ago by the Frankfurt school.

    They are an enemy which you clearly do not comprehend, and therefore cannot effectively fight.

    You’re in the way.

  140. Dave of Reedy Creek, Qld

    Hey Lucius, called you on an awful article in the past, this one not much better. at least Trump is keeping his political promises, he has a half decent strategy, he is against further erosion of his nation by the gormless lefties and he is a very clear thinker. Imperfections, sure like you and I and I have never heard him claim perfection.
    It’s a crying shame we dont have someone of the calibre of Mr Trump here, we have Marxist extreme left, extreme left and left, take your pick. We have universities churning out leftist clones year in year as I am certain you know the unis are totally following the old communist manifesto. I see no light at the end of the tunnel for Australia, sadly. I think you would do much better to write on our mess and calling it out.

  141. Crossie

    One of my greatest concerns in public policy is the tendency for each side to admit no error and to hold certain “truths” which are defended at any cost.

    Lucy, you mean like Malcolm who flip-flops from one pronouncement to another and yet is never wrong?

  142. Awake

    I think it would be an idiot person who would say that Trump is perfect.

    But relative to Hillary, Trump is a messiah.

    I don’t know why Lucius is complaining, I don’t know that a commenter on here on Sinclair’s blog has been censored. Or is there?

    Or maybe Lucius made an anti-Trump comments and he expected no one will make a counter arguments or even laughed at his comments.

    The debates in the U.S. are more strident and robust than here in Australia.

  143. Yohan

    Out of the entire alternative media there is 2 people that uncritically support Trump in everything, and proclaim Trumps every move correct. Bill Mitchell and Sundance (at Conservative Treehouse).

    Every single other pro Trump website or blogger will criticise and disagree with Trump every week.
    Where is this world of uncritical Trump boosters Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus is talking about?

    Or yeah, he pulled it out of his behind. Its the strawman and fantasy world the NeverTrump crowd live in, that Trump supporters don’t see his flaws.

    What LQC is really saying is ; if you don’t agree that Trump needs to be immediately removed from office, then you are the crazy one who can argue rationally or use critical thinking or logic. Again another strawman and false projection.

  144. Yohan

    Out of the entire alternative media there is 2 people that uncritically support Trump in everything, and proclaim Trumps every move correct. Bill Mitchell and Sundance (at Conservative Treehouse).

    Every single other pro Trump website or blogger will criticise and disagree with Trump every week.
    Where is this world of uncritical Trump boosters Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus is talking about?

    Or yeah, he pulled it out of his behind. Its the strawman and fantasy world the NeverTrump crowd live in, that Trump supporters don’t see his flaws.

    What LQC is really saying is this; if you don’t agree that Trump needs to be immediately removed from office, then you are the crazy one who can argue rationally or use critical thinking or logic. Again another strawman and false projection.

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