What’s so special about what Jordan Peterson says and how he says it?

This is from Instapundit discussing Jordan Peterson, the most articulate defender of our Western values found anywhere in the world. The question that really is of central interest is why he has become the phenomenon he is. I have my own views but am interested in yours.

AMADEUS SYNDROME: “As I say, [Peter] Hitchens at least feints towards what’s really bugging many of these people. It is the Amadeus syndrome. Many of [Jordan] Peterson’s haters on the right have been toiling in the fields these long years, equally worried about, writing about, the treatment of men, especially young men; about the erosion of freedoms, etc. Where, they are wondering, are their rewards? So they are bitter. It’s a feeling I’m familiar with,” Kathy Shaidle writes.

Read the whole thing.

As Dr. Helen noted earlier today, “Still at #1 on Amazon, Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos.

And for a tiny sample of what he says and the approach he takes, here is a relatively uncharacteristic interview in that he is being interviewed by people who ought to understand what he’s on about but do not. These I went looking for to see what Peterson has said about Donald Trump. These were about the only things I could find, but there are probably others.

The hosts asking the questions are supposedly on the conservative side but are clearly open-ended critics of Trump. Peterson was much more careful and if he was critical, it was only about Trump’s timing in what he said and not what he said. The bozos interviewing cannot see the point. This is Peterson in my own rough but reasonably accurate transcription (from around 2:00 in):

“Truth is a tricky thing because you have to take the temporal context into account. There are white lies and black truths. Black truth is when you use the truth in a way that isn’t truthful. . . just like a white lie is a lie that isn’t harmful…

“What Trump did wrong … was he failed to specify the time and the space of the utterance. Because what he should have come out and done is said that I unequivocally denounce the white supremacist racism that emerged in Charlottesville, and then he should have shut up. And then two weeks later he could have said, well when we look at the political landscape as a whole that it’s pretty obvious there are reprehensible individuals acting out on both ends of the extreme. The Charlottesville week was not the week to make that point.”

And this is Peterson’s views on Trump’s intelligence.

He gets it, even if he is cautious about saying it. And then this, where he is being interviewed by Canada’s Cathy Newman, and if you don’t know about Cathy Newman’s interview with Jordan Peterson, you should seek it out at your earliest opportunity.

The left will get him if they can, the very thing he worries about himself.

TO WHICH MAY BE ADDED THIS: This is titled What It’s Like To Be A Conservative Talking To Progressives. Actually, it is only our dearest wish, but the link does have the original Cathy Newman interview of Jordan Peterson. It’s all there, including a proper level of ridicule for Newman. But as the author writes:

The point here is not what it’s like to be Jordan Peterson giving an interview, it’s that this same interview technique gets used on conservatives fairly often. Case in point, ex-Google engineer James Damore gave an interview to CNN Tech in which his views were repeatedly mischaracterized in much the same way. CNN Tech’s Laurie Segall brought up the alt-right twice, forcing Damore to denounce a group he had no connection to in the first place. The effort seemed less to understand than to throw him into a hole of insinuations from which he could not escape.

There are no friendly interviews from the left of the right, where the interest is merely to understand our point of view. Whether Peterson has shown the rest of us the way forward we will only know when someone else does what he did.

AND THIS FROM THE COMMENTS: Addresses the question, can men and women work together in the workplace? Says we don’t know since it has only been going on for the past forty years. Makes the suggestion that makeup should be banned from places of work.

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92 Responses to What’s so special about what Jordan Peterson says and how he says it?

  1. mh

    Most Think Obama White House Spied On Trump Campaign, Want Special Counsel: IBD/TIPP Poll

    Americans overwhelmingly believe the Obama administration “improperly surveilled” Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, and a majority say they would like to see a special prosecutor appointed to look into possible misconduct by the FBI and Department of Justice in spying on Trump, the latest IBD/TIPP poll shows.

  2. Stimpson J. Cat

    Nothing really.
    It’s simply the first time a lot of people are hearing or thinking about this stuff.
    Especially from a Canadian psychologist and academic who sounds like Kermit the Frog.

  3. Y

    No. There’s a depth to what he is saying that is completely absent from every other commentator I’ve ever heard (and I’ve absorbed everything in this space for my whole adult life, 20-ish years), including every ‘conservative’ or right-adjacent commentator.

    Imagine a unified field theory of evolutionary psychology, applied in the most practical and truthful manner possible. He’s been a clinical psychologist for decades, so what he’s saying doesn’t just sound right, it is right. He’s got the data.

    Combined with the focus on young men, who have been ignored and reviled for 30 years, the message is incredibly powerful. It’s not hyperbole to say that for my generation, the is the father we never had.

  4. Trax

    He is thoughtful, knowledgeable and logical. Areas that are wholly lacking in the vast majority of commentators.
    He understands how the current trendy themes can lead to wholesale evil.
    He has a message that resonates from his practical knowledge.

  5. Stimpson J. Cat

    It’s not hyperbole to say that for my generation, the is the father we never had.

    And herein lies the problem.
    Lack of competent fathers, or lack of fathers entirely.

    A Canadian psychologist should not be the one to have to explain these things.

    Your father should have.

  6. Helen

    I can understand all those people disappointed they have essentially the same message and not getting the cut through, but I hope they can add to the message rather than detract from it.

    Yes his voice does sound tired, like he has been lecturing or fillibustering, and I no, would not want to be married to him (I would be worried he was analysing me all the time and I prefer to be more mysterious, like the usual man woman relationship) but I sincerely believe he will bring more people back to Christianity in the West than anyone else. He makes it ok to be Christian, even a strength to be Christian.

    Maybe that is the reason why he resonates and others have not so much.

  7. Helen

    A Canadian psychologist should not be the one to have to explain these things.

    Your father should have.

    Who trains the competent father? What is a comptent father? One who roves food, shelter, love and access to an education? Do they have to be a philosopher as well? Fathers have differing skill levels and abilities, they are just human, like all of us.

    My Dad, dear though he was, was a farmer who shouldered all his worries to himself, to care for us, but even he could not provide the answers in the context Peterson has.

  8. mh

    He’s better than Shaun Micallef , IMHO.

  9. pbw

    Peterson did a lot of work over many years. There ar YouTube videos of his uni lectures going back to when he was a lot younger, shall we say. In one video, he talks about his insomnia; being kept awake at night puzzling over some idea or other. Some Cats might appreciate that. Initially he would write to work out the idea, but then he hit on the idea of making videos. These became on-line events as he answered questions being put to him in real time.

    By the time of his stand on the egregious “Pronoun Bill,” he already had a big folowing. One of the surprising things about his early campus confrontations over pronouns was the vical support he attracted from quite a few supporters.

    As is often the case, the secret of overnight success is years of preparation.

    Peterson’s support among young men is tremendously encouraging. There’s a huge swell of masculine opposition building, and how and in what places it breaks is beyond JP’s abilbity to control, although he may exert a significant influence. However, the forces that will be unleashed are so potent and primal, and the current holders of the levers of power are so out-of-touch and so fanatically hostile to opposition that any sort of soft landing is unlikely.

  10. pbw

    Helen,

    Unfortunately, he is not a Christian. He’s another one of these intellectuals who have constructed a personal religion which happens to have the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth at or near the centre of it. That’s my understanding of the things I have heard him say about Christianity.

    He’s not alone in this. My beloved Michael Polanyi also constructed his own version (see Personal Knowledge), which I believe he may have distanced himself from in later life.

    If you can’t say the Creed without crossing your fingers and making all sorts of “personal interpretations” you aren’t one.

  11. Tom

    Peterson understands that the relentess drift left of culture has destroyed all of the good things we used to get from family, especially for young men relentlessly belittled and humiliated by the misandry of Marxist feminism. And now the new social media platforms have given an even bigger bully pulpit to the noisy nihilist dregs of the left. The reason Peterson has cut-through is simple: he is speaking the truth.

  12. Roger

    Thanks pbw; you saved me the trouble.

    As I’ve written elsewhere here, Peterson is a neo-Gnostic moralistic therapeutic Deist.

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that – it’s a free world, or ought to be – just don’t mistake it for Christianity.

  13. Roger

    I should add – that doesn’t mean Peterson doesn’t have some wise advice, but as he acknowledges, it is distilled from the Western tradition with an admixture of Taoism.

    Peterson fans who haven’t yet read C. S. Lewis might like to start with The Abolition of Man.

  14. Stimpson J. Cat

    Who trains the competent father? What is a comptent father?

    It should be the father trains the competent father.
    One who raises children more successful or competent than themselves.
    It is the point of life.
    To evolve, to reproduce, and for each generation to in some way surpass that which has come before.
    It’s why unlike most other animals, we can choose to ignore our instincts/emotions.

    In many ways compared to my father I am a failure.
    However by replicating and tweaking his teachings/philosophy/style/moral outlook I succeeded where he failed, by raising responsible successful children. So he still succeeded in a way through providing nurture that allowed me to help recognize and combat my nature.
    Because my one fear was that they would end up like me.
    This was a ridiculous fear obviously, because they aren’t crazy.
    However I didn’t know that at the time.

    😁

  15. Muddy

    The RAND Corporation calls this ‘Truth Decay‘, and evidently there’s money to be had in researching it.

    Truth Decay is defined as a set of four related trends: increasing disagreement about facts and analytical interpretations of facts and data; a blurring of the line between opinion and fact; an increase in the relative volume, and resulting influence, of opinion and personal experience over fact; and declining trust in formerly respected sources of factual information.

  16. Muddy

    Dr. Stimpy, you make a wise point about fatherhood.
    After all, women have a father in the state.

  17. Stimpson J. Cat

    Imagine a unified field theory of evolutionary psychology, applied in the most practical and truthful manner possible. He’s been a clinical psychologist for decades, so what he’s saying doesn’t just sound right, it is right. He’s got the data.

    Imagine you have a child.
    You think the child has a rather mild form of anxiety and depression, so you put the child on antidepressants from the age of around 11, before puberty.
    Then after roughly 13 years of this the child(now adult) changes their diet and the symptoms disappear.
    Were you right to put the child on antidepressants?
    How does this impact the data?
    Was it a mistake?

  18. stackja

    My father was raised by a widow. I am told I am a gentleman.

  19. Stimpson J. Cat

    My father was raised by a widow. I am told I am a gentleman.

    Would your father have preferred to grow up like you with a father, or not?

  20. nemkat

    This bloke is very weak.
    At 4.46, the Interview harpie chides him about being photographed behind a Pepe the Frog flag.
    He just falls apart, starts rambling about the ”Far Right”.
    Low energy, very tired, he talks about the symptoms of the destruction of Western Civilisation, rather than the causes.

  21. MichelLasouris

    ” It’s a feeling I’m familiar with,” Kathy Shaidle writes.” What a pity she cannot write in English……. i.e. : It’s a feeling with which am familiar” So much nicer, don’t you think?

  22. Graham

    He seems to have struck a chord. I was astounded last week, when using a rowing machine at the gym and eavesdropping on the conversation occurring between the personal trainer and his client on the next machine, to hear the 20 something trainer mention Jordan Peterson and the Cathy Newman interview. The woman he was talking to didn’t have a clue who he was, but the trainer was, quite rightly, glowing in his admiration for Peterson. It was not the sort of conversation I expected to hear in a gym.

  23. MPH

    My theory about Peterson’s popularity with young men is that he is telling them the truth about the world for the first time, and resolving the cognitive dissonance between what modern leftist/feminists say and what young men see the world is actually like. The truth is that life is tough, bad things happen, you’ll never be fully appreciated, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t work hard and try to better yourself. He’s also trying to instill intrinsic motivation in young people who have been taught extrinsic motivation their whole life.

    Stimpson, it’s not just presence of fathers or otherwise – it’s the demonisation of men in general, society’s cultural portrayal of men as bumbling useless idiots, so even when dad is around or tries to be involved he is cut off at the knees whenever he tries to have input because his credibility has been destroyed before he even opens his mouth. It’s taken me 25 years after my parents divorce to work that one out and work through the impact that had on me personally. Peterson was one of a few very helpful influences.

  24. Stimpson J. Cat

    It’s taken me 25 years after my parents divorce
    I doesn’t to offend you but merely to ask some hard questions.
    Who had custody?
    Why do men let women have custody of their children instead of sharing it fairly or owning it?
    Do not men dominate in every other aspect of society?
    Why is this acceptable in society?
    Why do men not change their lifestyle and careers around access to their children?
    Why do men not want to raise their own children?
    What are the consequences of this to our society?

  25. duncanm

    Peterson reminds me of a modern day stoic.. many of his ideas follow the same veins of thought.

    I think he does well right now, because he is very careful with his words. It is very hard for the leftists to point and shout bad things, as he knows exactly what he said, what he meant by it, and will stand by his own words.

  26. duncanm

    That last interview is hilarious.

    The interviewer keeps banging on about Pepe being a symbol of the ‘far right’.

    Somehow I think Che, Marx, Lenin, et. al shifts have not even entered her tiny mind.

  27. pbw

    Stimpson,

    Why do men let women have custody of their children instead of sharing it fairly or owning it?

    Family law.

    Do not men dominate in every other aspect of society?

    No. It’s a matriarchy, and becoming more so by the day.

    Why is this acceptable in society?

    See above.

    Why do men not change their lifestyle and careers around access to their children?

    They do, all the time. But they are being bled dry by the banshees they had the misfortune to marry.

    Why do men not want to raise their own children?

    They do, all the time. But see “Family law,” above.

    What are the consequences of this to our society?

    (With apologies in advance) Catastophic!

  28. calli

    Peterson fans who haven’t yet read C. S. Lewis might like to start with The Abolition of Man.

    Seconded.

  29. calli

    There are white lies and black truths. Black truth is when you use the truth in a way that isn’t truthful. . . just like a white lie is a lie that isn’t harmful…

    Disagree about “white lies” being harmless. Lying is always destructive. But the “black truth” as he defines it – yes. It usually involves an element of cherry picking.

  30. Stimpson J. Cat

    Family law.

    The law did not force them to marry their wife in the first place.
    What kind of woman are men marrying?
    Do people actually believe in luck?
    The choices we make matter.
    Every single one from the moment we open our eyes.

  31. duncanm

    What kind of woman are men marrying?

    The female kind. I’m told NAWALT.

  32. pbw

    Stimpson,

    It should be the father trains the competent father.
    One who raises children more successful or competent than themselves.
    It is the point of life.
    To evolve, to reproduce, and for each generation to in some way surpass that which has come before.
    It’s why unlike most other animals, we can choose to ignore our instincts/emotions.

    All major cultures, AFAIAA, including our own, if you disregard its current phase of terminal decline, understand that the trajectory of a culture is the reverse of the one you sketch. Cultures begin with a golden age, in which the virtues and strengths of the culture are taught and demonstrated. The young are adminished to elevate their gaze and train their expectations and ambitions toward the age of giants. The culture then thrives to the extent to which the young maintain their elevated gaze. But alas, it’s too hard.

    (I believe there is a term in linguistics which describes the simplification of the grammatical structures of languages over time. I may be just confusing this with syncope – the shortening of spoken words by elimination of some letters or sounds.)

    If, as you say, the point is to evolve, to reproduce, and for each generation to in some way surpass that which has come before, it wouldn’t take too many generations to turn a society into a convocation of moral and intellectual giants. It ain’t happening.

  33. Roger

    My theory about Peterson’s popularity with young men is that he is telling them the truth about the world for the first time, and resolving the cognitive dissonance between what modern leftist/feminists say and what young men see the world is actually like.

    MPH, yes, that is a large part of his appeal.

    That’s what puzzles men who came of age before the dominance of feminism emasculated Western manhood. But while they were at the office or the job site, the feminized education system was shaping their boys.

  34. Helen

    Unfortunately, he is not a Christian.

    Do you think he will become one, one day? Instead of a lot of long words which mean nothing to me that you say he is now?

    I have to say he interested me in finding out more about Christianity, but then you guys come and slam dunk him and it puts me off finding out more. Why bother? Fuck it, I’ll just give up, because I can never aspire to the higher sacred learnings of you lot. You are not interested in encouraging a person to start on a journey, you are just interested in your moral so right positions. No better than lefties who wont argue with Lizzie at a party, really. Now I have made myself cranky. I better go and do something constructive.

  35. Stimpson J. Cat

    the virtues and strengths of the culture are taught and demonstrated.

    Who teaches?
    Who determines culture?
    Who has the most impact on a young humans life?

    If, as you say, the point is to evolve, to reproduce, and for each generation to in some way surpass that which has come before, it wouldn’t take too many generations to turn a society into a convocation of moral and intellectual giants. It ain’t happening.

    As I said above,

    It’s why unlike most other animals, we can choose to ignore our instincts/emotions.

    Everything is a choice.

  36. Ellen of Tasmania

    What kind of woman are men marrying?
    Do people actually believe in luck?
    The choices we make matter.

    I know that sometimes really bad or unexpected things happen, but I do believe we are not teaching our children to think carefully about life partners. I think the dating mentality has a lot to do with it – all those casual, take-it-or-leave-it relationships are far better training for divorce than marriage.

    How often do you hear people saying they want to find someone who ‘loves a good time, is ‘hot’, has a good sense of humour’ etc? And how often do you hear they are looking for someone who is loyal, honest, diligent, kind … traits of character rather than personality?

    That might sound dull, but over time, character matters. When life gets hard (and it often does), character matters. You know, ‘for better or worse, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others’ takes more than just warm, fuzzy feelings. The bond of family should be thick and strong to get us all through this life.

  37. calli

    I have to say he interested me in finding out more about Christianity, but then you guys come and slam dunk him and it puts me off finding out more.

    Don’t do yourself a disservice, Helen. The things Peterson draws on are truths that everyone hungers for in a world of lies and dissembling. If you consider those things worthwhile, then go a step further and check it out for yourself.

    If you want to find out about Christianity, do it the fun way – have a look at the Screwtape Letters. And the marvellously breathless Gospel of Saint Mark.

  38. Stimpson J. Cat

    Now I have made myself cranky. I better go and do something constructive.

    Helen if you like Peterson and think he is helpful, then use him.
    The same goes for any philosophy or system of belief.
    Christians aren’t the be all and end all.
    Jesus was not Christian and look what he achieved.
    He was just a carpenter with some good ideas.
    Jesus and his ideas is what makes Christianity special.
    Without him there would be nothing.
    It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to recognize good ideas when you hear them.
    None of the disciples were.

  39. Roger

    Now I have made myself cranky. I better go and do something constructive.

    Read C.S. Lewis! 😉

  40. Roger

    Jesus and his ideas is what makes Christianity special.

    Sorry Stimps, but there’s nothing Jesus said that couldn’t be tracked down in the rabbinic tradition, the Old Testament or even other religious figures and traditions….with the exception of what he said about himself and the significance of his death, which was confirmed by his resurrection. That’s what makes Christianity special.

  41. Roger

    Helen, if you enjoy reading, here are some recommendations:

    Classics

    CS Lewis
    The Abolition of Man, Miracles, Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters

    GK CHesterton
    Orthodoxy, The Everlasting Man

    Contemporary

    David Bentley Hart
    Atheist Delusions

    Dinesh D’Souza
    What’s So Great About Christianity?

    Edward Feser
    The Last Superstition

    Vishal Mangalwadi
    The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization

    Report back!
    🙂

  42. Eddystone

    Now I have made myself cranky. I better go and do something constructive.

    First tidy your room!

  43. stackja

    Roger
    #2634113, posted on February 11, 2018 at 7:14 pm

    Moses said stone. Jesus asked who first to throw stone.

  44. Infidel Tiger

    Peterson is the Pastor for a lost and aimless post-Christian world.

  45. Stimpson J. Cat

    the significance of his death, which was confirmed by his resurrection. That’s what makes Christianity special.

    No that is what makes it a successful religion.
    His ideas were different.
    He was killed for his ideas.
    The belief that he was the Son of God and was Resurrected cemented this point of difference, and created the basis of Christianity.

  46. Roger

    His ideas were different. He was killed for his ideas.

    Claiming to be the Son of God wasn’t an idea, it was the truth, proven by his resurrection.

  47. calli

    Gee you give tough homework, Roger!

    Pssst…Helen. Mine’s easier. And the second selection (which should have been the first) is straight from the horse’s mouth, via Mark.

    😃

  48. Stimpson J. Cat

    Claiming to be the Son of God wasn’t an idea, it was the truth, proven by his resurrection.

    This is a belief Roger.
    Are the parables Jesus tells truth, or stories designed to teach?

  49. DrBeauGan

    Peterson is doing something good and popular with people. Christians, by and large, are not. Look at the church leaders and look at Peterson and ask which are feeding the souls of those who hunger after righteousness?

  50. calli

    There are church leaders who are doing exactly that, Dr Beau. They tend to shun the limelight.

  51. a reader

    Exactly Calli. I could name a dozen Uniting Church ministers (yes UCA) doing exactly that. But because they are they’re too busy to be the loud voice of the church the loonies get presented by the media as the face of the organisation

  52. pbw

    Helen,

    Sorry, I’ve been away. I don’t think I used big words. I also assumed you were a Christian. So, here’s what it takes to be a Christian.

    Orthodox Creed (almost identical to the Nicene Creed of the Catholics).

    The Creed: The Symbol of Faith
    I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

    And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.

    In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    These are not statements that most moderns can accept. Nonetheless, that’s what Christians have believed since at latest the time the Creed was formulated in the fourth century. It is an understanding of God conditioned by a series of actual historical events involving Jesus. A heck of a lot of superstructure can be built on this Creed, but when you abandon it, you abandon also any pretence of being a Christian. So if you’re interested in Christianity, start at the beginning.

  53. Steve trickler.

    Fom 1981. It rings a few bells.

    Long before the internet.



  54. pbw

    calli,

    I would have said John or Luke. John is the most intensely personal of the Gospels; Luke is the most comprehensive, and the most self-consciously historiographical. Real them all. They don’t take very long.

    Alternatively, read the gospel according to Stimpson, who I believe was an eye-witness. Unfortunately, it’s intensely boring.

  55. BorisG

    Lying is always destructive.

    In Judaism, there is one and only one case where lies are justified. To keep the peace.

  56. BorisG

    There are white lies and black truths. Black truth is when you use the truth in a way that isn’t truthful. . . just like a white lie is a lie that isn’t harmful…

    This may be true in some cases… But in the case of Trump’s remarks and attitude to White Supremacists and neo-Nazis, this reads like spin and an attempt to defend an indefensible.

    I feel that this guy says a lot of right things, but the hostility of the media makes him contradict them on every point, including those where they are ok. He has to be careful, because this can undermine his message.

  57. Stimpson J. Cat

    Alternatively, read the gospel according to Stimpson, who I believe was an eye-witness. Unfortunately, it’s intensely boring.

    Again, this is a belief.
    Do you have any proof I was an eyewitness?
    Rather than accounts written roughly some 2018 years after the fact?

  58. Hugh

    “He was just a carpenter …”

    but a Carpenter who had created the universe before He was a young lad learning humbly and diligently from his foster father Joseph how to make a door … eventually to be crucified on a piece of wood.

    Of all religions and world-views, Christianity has the most amazingly profound and beautiful paradoxes.* Doesn’t prove it’s true, I realize, but should give pause for thought.

    (See Chesterton’s: “Orthodoxy” and the chapter “The Paradoxes of Christianity” in particular.)

  59. None

    I’ve been watching this guy on you tube on and off for years and have have nevertheless been caught out by his sudden popularity. Very sad to watch the 2nd interview with the attempted gotcha and especially his final sad note about riding a 100 ft wave.

  60. Arky

    This thread has triggered Stimpson badly.
    Go clean your room, you great big arse.

  61. None

    CS Lewis and Chesterton may be grand but dated and speak less and less to today’s generation
    Jesus was a Jew.
    A radical law abiding Jew he pushed out the boundaries of Judaism. Why his folliwers eventually were called Christians.
    The two distinctives if Christianity are Trinity and Incarnation.

  62. Steve trickler.

    None
    #2634357, posted on February 11, 2018 at 10:58 pm
    I’ve been watching this guy on you tube on and off for years and have have nevertheless been caught out by his sudden popularity. Very sad to watch the 2nd interview with the attempted gotcha and especially his final sad note about riding a 100 ft wave.

    —-

    He’ll be ok. In this internet age, putting your arse on the line, like he is, is going to be a history lesson. Sit back and watch.

    KABOOM!

    Women in the workplace wearing make up.

    6:29

    Will he survive this, or be crushed?



  63. None

    Thanks for that Steve. I am a woman and Jordan is so right about make up. I said as much at Tim Bkair’s blog about women who comlain about grid girls.

    ‘We don’t know what the rules are’.
    We did until the lefties started pissfarting around.
    His point about archetypal narratives here and elsewhere is spot on. He gets the destructiveness of ideology and its countering by narrative -a better story.

  64. None

    Oops keep forgetting there’s no five minutes to correct typos at the Cat.

  65. Combined with the focus on young men, who have been ignored and reviled for 30 years, the message is incredibly powerful. It’s not hyperbole to say that for my generation, the is the father we never had.

    Further evidence that wingnuttery is a mental illness, specifically in this case in the form of serious daddy issues.

    This man is not the messiah.

  66. Stimpson J. Cat

    This man is not the messiah.

    Who is the messiah Monty?
    Don’t say Brian.

  67. Tintarella di Luna

    And wow what a difference is this Jordan Peterson interview with GeenStijl by comparison to the BBC interview. What I found so appealing about the interview with GeenStijl was not only Peterson’s conciliatory attitude to the JP/CN interview and his harsh self-examination, but the intellectual curiosity and willingness to learn from Professor Peterson shown by the Sri Lankan-born interviewer Timon Dias, who has a Masters Degree in Clinical Psychology from the oldest university in the Netherlands, Leiden University. Furthermore the wide range of the topics/concepts covered in the discussion, because it wasn’t all about the JP/CN interview.

  68. Who is the messiah Monty?

    Now that is a stupid question, Stimpity-doo.

    Cyril, of course.

  69. Stimpson J. Cat

    Now that is a stupid question, Stimpity-doo.
    Cyril, of course.

    Get back on the main forum you Muppet. I’ve missed you.(no h$mo).

  70. Oh come on

    Tintarella, that was a great interview. The first after the Cathy Newman bloodbath, as far as I know. I noticed that some people were annoyed by the Dutch interviewer referring to Peterson as “man”, that this was disrespectful.

    I’ve met many Dutch in my travels. Their English is generally excellent. However, I’ve noticed they have a tendency to use Americanisms slightly inappropriately. It’s a small distinction between someone with a very high of English proficiency and a native speaker. The interviewer spoke English in a typically Dutch way, to my ear.

  71. DM OF WA

    pbw
    #2634311, posted on February 11, 2018 at 10:07 pm

    [ The Nicene Creed ]

    These are not statements that most moderns can accept. Nonetheless, that’s what Christians have believed since at latest the time the Creed was formulated in the fourth century. It is an understanding of God conditioned by a series of actual historical events involving Jesus. A heck of a lot of superstructure can be built on this Creed, but when you abandon it, you abandon also any pretence of being a Christian. So if you’re interested in Christianity, start at the beginning.

    These are statements not every Christian would necessarily accept totally, even in ancient times. Indeed they have been the subjects for a great deal of controversy through the history of Christianity. (One example: the Trinity.) The Roman Catholic church won a monopoly on Christian doctrine for over a thousand years starting around the time of the emperor Constantine. Early Christianity was a diverse collection of sects with widely varying interpretations of Christ’s teachings and to some extent even the facts of His life; not even the texts of Christianity were fixed and were largely based on oral transmission for decades after Christ.

    Today the great mediaeval Christian institutions have withered away. I regard this as a good thing because they, although they did much good, they also became corrupted by worldly power. Nowadays we tend to be suspicious of absolutist doctrine. The questioning of the present day and desire return to the foundations of Christianity is an exciting development.

  72. Stimpson J. Cat

    Early Christianity was a diverse collection of sects with widely varying interpretations of Christ’s teachings and to some extent even the facts of His life; not even the texts of Christianity were fixed and were largely based on oral transmission for decades after Christ.

    Yep.
    Most scholars agree that Mark was the first Gospel and is dated from roughly 70 years after Jesus death. Matthew and and Luke were based off this, then came John.

  73. Tintarella di Luna

    The interviewer spoke English in a typically Dutch way, to my ear.

    You know I didn’t even notice that, maybe because I usually don’t have time to read the comments. I was so caught up with the fact that the interviewer was asking questions from a perspective of knowledge not prejudice and bias and he was asking the questions in English which would probably have been his third language – a rare privilege.

  74. calli

    Yep.
    Most scholars agree that Mark was the first Gospel and is dated from roughly 70 years after Jesus death. Matthew and and Luke were based off this, then came John.

    Then why does Luke’s second part (The Acts of the Apostles) not include the martyrdom of Saint Peter and Saint Paul? An odd omission for an historian.

  75. calli

    In addition, the Temple was still standing. So your “most scholars” are discounting the well documented events of AD 70.

  76. win

    Who wouldn’t want to see Australia’s many version’s of Cathy Newman be so delightfully ridiculed in just such manner.
    All an elderly women with decades of mouth frothing impotence with the deviate Australian media can say is Go Jorden and Thank You.

  77. Cat

    Steve – Cathy Newman is from BBC4 and is British not Canadian.

  78. JohnA

    Roger #2633939, posted on February 11, 2018, at 2:58 pm

    I should add – that doesn’t mean Peterson doesn’t have some wise advice, but as he acknowledges, it is distilled from the Western tradition with an admixture of Taoism.

    Peterson fans who haven’t yet read C. S. Lewis might like to start with The Abolition of Man.

    And anything by Francis A Schaeffer – start with The Church Before the Watching World and then go back to his foundational works:
    The God Who is There
    He is There and He is Not Silent
    Escape From Reason
    A Christian Manifesto

  79. JohnA

    Stimpson J. Cat #2634440, posted on February 12, 2018, at 3:07 am

    Early Christianity was a diverse collection of sects with widely varying interpretations of Christ’s teachings and to some extent even the facts of His life; not even the texts of Christianity were fixed and were largely based on oral transmission for decades after Christ.

    Yep.
    Most scholars agree that Mark was the first Gospel and is dated from roughly 70 years after Jesus death. Matthew and and Luke were based off this, then came John.

    Stimp, I already asked you to refute the Resurrection and linked to “Who Moved the Stone” by Morrison.
    The first letters in New Testament times were written within 20 years of Jesus’ life death and resurrection.
    The NT canon, including Revelation, was settled before AD70 by the principal apostles. It wasn’t codified in Church Council/s until much later – the bureaucrats are never in the front lines.

    DM of WA, the fact that most moderns don’t accept the declarations in the Creeds says much about the moderns but does not touch on the truth of those declarations.

    There is one Universe, and it operates in one way only. Even though it has been corrupted from its original perfection, there is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person to reach the point that Peterson has, and to make statements consistent with the Christian faith, without actually being a Christian.

  80. nemkat
    #2633967, posted on February 11, 2018 at 3:49 pm

    This bloke is very weak.

    Consider the following:

    Anybody who wears a cross is a KKK sympathiser because the KKK uses that symbol.

    Peterson is getting experienced in interviewing techniques. He knew not to get deep into the whole Pepe the frog and kek thing during a time limited interview. That’s what his comment about making mistakes was all about.
    Far from being weak, he is actually quite strong. Not too many would have survived the onslought he has endured in such a short time.
    Many many academics across the West have had their careers destroyed by less. Peterson not only survives, but he thrives. That makes him strong, not weak.
    Your comment indicates you have little knowledge of Peterson and the phenomena.

  81. Steve trickler.

    That VICE video of JP has been sliced and diced. Crafty editing. And VICE are getting hammered for it.

    Would like to see the full, unedited interview, for context.

  82. A Canadian psychologist should not be the one to have to explain these things.

    Your father should have.

    Fair enough, Stimps, but what if the little shits don’t listen?

  83. Stimpson J. Cat

    An odd omission for an historian.

    You think the Gospels were written by historians?
    I don’t.

  84. Stimpson J. Cat

    Look I don’t want to get into a Bible sh$tfight people.
    It’s a Jordan Peterson thread.

  85. JohnA

    Stimpson J. Cat #2634702, posted on February 12, 2018, at 12:19 pm

    Look I don’t want to get into a Bible sh$tfight people.
    It’s a Jordan Peterson thread.

    Well then, stick to the topic.

    You raised it, so you wear the freckles.

  86. egg_

    Your comment indicates you have little knowledge of Peterson and the phenomena.

    Sock commentary is always two-dimensional.

  87. egg_

    Peterson is doing something good and popular with people. Christians, by and large, are not. Look at the church leaders* and look at Peterson and ask which are feeding the souls of those who hunger after righteousness?

    *Busy bending to the Left to accommodate the march through the institutions.
    This will not end well.

  88. Stimpson J. Cat

    You raised it, so you wear the freckles.

    I think you will find it was PBW who brought Christianity into things.
    I’m getting out because it serves no purpose, and I simply don’t have the knowledge to discuss any more than the shallow and broad level I already have.
    Nothing I have said is highly controversial.
    There are lots of historians, not just Catholic ones.
    If you want me to concede I’ll concede.

  89. Stimpson J. Cat

    Fair enough, Stimps, but what if the little shits don’t listen?

    Take away the things they love.
    Use leverage.
    Food, money, TV, video games, tablets, playtime, sports, money, access to their friends.
    They are not your friends.
    Treat children like adults they turn into adults.
    You don’t need to treat them like children, they are children. They don’t need help being children.
    That is their friends job.
    They need help becoming adults.
    It is about responsibility.
    It’s not about children doing the right thing when you or anyone else can see them.
    It’s about children choosing for themselves to do the right thing when they are by themselves.
    At the very least if they are so immoral and hopeless then instill in them such love and respect for you so that even if they disagree with all of your morals and ideals they will try their very best not to disappoint you and lose your respect and love.

  90. None

    These are statements not every Christian would necessarily accept totally, even in ancient times.

    A form of the creed is recited every week in every church that maintains a liturgical tradition (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican…). If those who recite it don’t believe it then the problem is theirs.

    Indeed they have been the subjects for a great deal of controversy through the history of Christianity. (One example: the Trinity.)

    The that of the Trinity has not been debated for centuries (over a millenium) even if theologians like to debate about the nature of the Trinity – which shall by definition, always remain beyond human comprehension. The Christian on the street would be largely ignorant of all that jazz. If however they do not accept that God is Trinity they may need to ask themselves whether they are Christian or not. Trinity and Incarnation are the two distinctives of Christian belief.

    The Roman Catholic church won a monopoly on Christian doctrine for over a thousand years starting around the time of the emperor Constantine.

    Utterly anachronistic in terms of references to “Roman Catholic Church” in the fourth century at the time of Constantine (laughable even) and utterly false re monopoly of doctrine.

    Early Christianity was a diverse collection of sects with widely varying interpretations of Christ’s teachings and to some extent even the facts of His life;

    The first Christians numbered barely a thousand. Within a few centuries they were running the Roman Empire without firing a shot, shooting an arrow, or raising a fist in rebellion and despite localised and occasionally empire wide persecution. Yes there were different groups that emerged for different reasons but the ‘heterodox’ and ‘heretics’ were barely blips in the bigger radar. Mostly localised, centred around individuals and dying out within a generation. Also the first Christians generally saw Christianity as a philosophy (i.e. a way of life, which is the way philosophy was understood in those days; bear in mind that Graeco-Roman religions also did not operate on concepts of ‘belief’) so the way you lived your life was of much import; not just mouthing words.

    not even the texts of Christianity were fixed and were largely based on oral transmission for decades after Christ.

    The first Christians had a bible. The Jewish bible which Christians now call the Old Testament. Sure some disagreement around the edges but the core texts of the Jewish scriptures were fixed. Even Jesus quoted from the Law and the Prophets. Mind you nearly all the early Christians used the Greek translation of the Old Testament which is still used in Orthodox churches today. Yes, the story of Jesus first circulated by means of oral tradition. So? Oral sources were considered superior to written sources for many centuries after that too. That is because in a manuscript culture texts are easily miscopied, amended and forged (less so liturgical or sacred texts like the Jewish scriptures with centuries of tradition already behind them – including strict rules on who and how they are copied). But anyway, yes. Mark’s gospel is now dated around 50-60AD , so within 20 to 30 years of Jesus, which is pretty close compared to other ancient ‘lives’ or biographies (which were not like biographies as we know them today. Absolutely excellent in fact. And each gospel has a particular slant or theology. Some dude (Tatian) tried to harmonise the gospels back in the second century and turn them into one gospel (the Diatessaron). The church rightly rejected it as it represented a fundamental misunderstanding of what the gospels are and also created a false picture (or rather remembrance) of Christ.

    People who want to criticise Christianity really need to grasp that Christianity is not a bunch of bible thumping evangelicals from southern U.S.A as manifested in the 1980s.

  91. Andre S

    Jordan Peterson exposes the shallowness of the lefts ideology. The lefts ideology lacks enlightenment principles in its failure to acknowledge the significance of the individual. Jordan empowers the individual and so democracy, and this is a serious threat to a lefty technocratic utopia that believes that most people are too dumb to make informed decisions.

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