Boris: The price of nationalism?

Many people on the right love nationalists. Especially East European nationalists, and especially ultra-conservative governments of Poland and Hungary, who stand up to the hegemony of the EU on issues ranging from judicial activism to immigration.

But there are some problems. Prior to WWII, European nationalists were often openly anti-Semitic, while the left stood up for Jewish rights. Remember the Dreyfus affair in the 19th century France, the Beilis affair in southern Russia in 1913, and in numerous other cases. Why? Because Jews, without a home country of their own and scattered among many nations, were perceived by nationalists to be inherently internationalist and cosmopolitan in nature, or worse, representative of a trans-national body, the world Jewry. Nazism was a culmination of these sentiments.

This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. Jews established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the Jews, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

It so happens that nationalism is nowadays particularly strong in Eastern Europe, and, naturally, Eastern European countries are some of the strongest supporters of Israel. Yet old habits die hard. This was highlighted last week, when the Polish parliament approved a law that essentially criminalises any suggestions that Poles were complicit in the Holocaust. Israel and Jewish groups call this Holocaust denial (or distortion) , and the US State Department expressed concern. When confronted, Polish nationalist political leaders say that the law is needed to protect the truth and the good name of Poland. That is, we must conclude, the price of nationalism.

The Polish example is by no means unique. Minimizing or denial of complicity of their nationals in the Holocaust is common in Eastern Europe . Poland’s example is moderate by comparison. After all, the Nazis considered Poles and all other Slavs as sub-human and subjected them to brutal oppression. It is estimated that up to two million non-Jewish Polish nationals died as a result of Nazi occupation. Thus Poland may try to minimize the role of its citizens in the Holocaust but it certainly does not celebrate the Nazis or Nazi collaborators.

The situation is different in countries that were allied with Nazi Germany. In Hungary, there has been a revival of the image of its war-time leader Miklos Horthy, who was openly anti-Semitic, and by all accounts was very much complicit in the Holocaust, though not involved directly in the Final Solution. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were deported to death camps from Hungary at the time of German occupation, at a rate at which crematoria were unable to cope with the new arrivals. This was organised by about twenty German officers with the help of an army of people from the Hungarian civil administration, while Horthy was still Regent. Recently Hungary’s PM Victor Orban suggested that Horthy was an ‘exceptional statesman’ and gave him the credit for the survival of Hungary. But why? I guess because of the need for national heroes. The price of nationalism…

The trend is even more visible in the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In these tiny countries former Waffen-SS veterans and their supporters organise annual marches through their capital cities and are portrayed as freedom fighters who fought the bad guys (the Soviets). Given how much these countries suffered at the hands of the Russians and Soviets, this behaviour is somewhat understandable, but it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.

The case of the Ukraine is somewhat unique. On one hand, Ukrainians like Poles were regarded by the Nazis as sub-human. On the other hand, Hitler wanted to use Ukrainian nationalists to turn the Ukrainians against the Russians. To this end they courted Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera and allowed him to form his own army. However when Bandera attempted to create a Ukrainian state (allied with Germany, of course), Hitler would have none of it, and sent Bandera and his allies to a concentration camp. However Bandera’s army was allowed to continued its activities, which consisted mostly of massacres of Poles and Jews in what is now western Ukraine. Bandera is now celebrated as Ukraine’s national hero, and his collaboration with the Nazis is forgotten or excused (usually on the grounds that he was imprisoned for most of WWII). But this veneration of Bandera is strongly opposed by Poland, which is EU’s strongest supporter of Ukrainian independence. The law passed by the Polish Parliament last week also criminalises denial of Ukrainian massacres of Poles during WWII. We have come full circle…

So how come these countries, which are strong supporters of Israel, are involved in what is arguably Holocaust distortion? In the words of a prominent Nazi hunter Efraim Zuroff, the answer is simple. ‘They love Israel but hate the Jews.’

One Eastern European country that is strongly opposed to Holocaust denial and distortion is Russia. However Russia under Putin denies communist crimes, and is in the process of reviving the image of Stalin (along with Ivan the Terrible and Nicolas II). And Russian nationalism is arguably more dangerous than that of its neighbours, because it is imperialist in nature. The price of nationalism?

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82 Responses to Boris: The price of nationalism?

  1. Fisky

    The History Wars are all to do with state interests in the present. I don’t like Poland’s Holocaust revisionist law on the principle of academic enquiry, but in practice it serves the useful interests of putting Germany and the EU on the moral back foot, and precluding any means of emotional manipulation that the EU might use against Poland – such as, you were complicit in the Holocaust, so to repay your guilt you must take in 100,000 Muslim “refugees”.

    The Poles are smart to shut this down before it can go anywhere. And right after they passed the Holocaust law, Merkel was forced to put out a statement clarifying that Germany was 100% responsible for the Holocaust. A very clever diplomatic move by Poland, and I thoroughly support them on those grounds alone.

  2. Fisky

    Also, the fact that Poland was wiped off the map completely is another reason not to be particularly bothered by this law. The number of Poles who would genuinely have wanted to aid Hitler in any enterprise, let alone the Holocaust, was tiny. They had 2 years of horrible treatment at the hands of the Nazis before the Holocaust even got going, so it is very unlikely that there would have been many willing recruits among the Poles.

    The only reason to try to blame even a fraction of the Poles for the Holocaust today, is to try to blackmail them into doing whatever Germany wants them to do presently – which is to permanently alter their demographics. Sound familiar?

  3. Fisky

    As a general rule, we should support all legislation that is aimed at suppressing the intellectual freedom of Leftists, until Leftists are forced to the negotiating table.

  4. Bruce of Newcastle

    The problem with the internationalism of the Left is a boot grinding a human face forever.
    Nationalism is like the compartments of a ship. If there is an influx of toxic ideology it can be quarantined by borders. Then the nations which have a winning set of policies and ideology will win and the losers will lose.

    Antisemitism is a losers’ ideology. International socialism is even worse. And Islam is worse again.
    That is why we need nations: to keep such ideologies from turning the whole of the Earth into North Korea.

  5. marcus classis

    One Eastern European country that is strongly opposed to Holocaust denial and distortion is Russia. However Russia under Putin denies communist crimes, and is in the process of reviving the image of Stalin (along with Ivan the Terrible and Nicolas II). And Russian nationalism is arguably more dangerous than that of its neighbours, because it is imperialist in nature. The price of nationalism?

    Anti-semitism is deeply vile.

    Russia does not seem to be reviving anti-semitism, and if it chooses to rehabilitate Stalin, that is its own internal business no matter what I think of it – his worst impacts were on the USSR itself, including Russia. International socialism was and is a murderous carnage of misery, yet Russia rehabbing Stalin is mostly their own affair.

    The rise of active anti-semitism is strongest in France, Germany, Belgium, UK and Italy – all those countries who have let in hordes of mohammedans on hijira.

    If eastern European nationalism has some spiky bits, that is still far preferable to the national suicide-by-mohammedan-and-cultural-marxism we see in France, Germany, Belgium, UK and Italy.

    At least Poland etc might survive.

  6. jupes

    The price of nationalism?

    It’s disturbing that for so many countries the price of nationalism does indeed seem high.

    Nevertheless it is better than the alternative: Muslim immigration.

  7. Fisky

    Poland should pass another law called the Equal Culpability Statute, which requires anyone commenting on WWII to ascribe equal culpability for starting the war to both the Nazis and the Soviet Union. They should do this at once to piss off Putin. And run a massive propaganda campaign about how the Soviets gave aid to Hitler.

    So many ways to weaponise diplomacy!

  8. Jock

    You forget the Dutch. They didnt round them up but they liked to point out jewish neighbours. Source; Dutch friends 25 years ago.

  9. Rebel with cause

    Sadly, if Europe’s current demographic trends keep it is only a matter of time before there will be fights to claim credit for the Holocaust.

  10. Jock

    Strong Nationalism can be misdirected, but it can be used for healthy trade and alliances. The EU has gone too far. People fear the loss of culture and the scale of immigration of mostly young unskilled welfare spongers is unprecedented since the war. You can just see the train wreck coming and yet the EU just keeps on going. Its authoritarian reach has become quite unnerving. Everything it touches seems to fester. The initial aims of free trade were worthy, but free movement and strangling regulation and the Euro were not put to the prols.

    I fear it will not end well and I see this growth of nationalism as being a reaction to the stifling authoritarianism of the EU and its bureacrats.

  11. iain russell

    marcus classis, ‘hijirah’ was the escape by Mighty M from Mecca to Medina, rather than the present repeat of the Muslim invasions and slaughter in Eastern Europe. Ironically, ‘hijra’ is a derogatory Urdu/Hindi term for eunuchs, trannies and such. Its wonderful that Islam and its ‘civilisation’ left such a joyous impression on Europeans that, centuries after they were driven out, people still hate and loathe them. Or in the case of the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, the people willingly slaughtered them. One could also look to India for correlative evidence of the legacy of TROP wherever it has placed its bloody claws. Or Myanmar etc etc

  12. Dr Fred Lenin

    A great article , eliminate all nationalism ,except Chinese ,North Korean ,African <South American communists ,and a few hundred other exceptions .I mean the problem is nationalism of people of European descent ,they stand in the way of u.n.communism and its EU comrades ,,and rule by fine bureaucratic comrades ,unelected of course . Narxism at “work”
    I know work is a dirty word for Narxists but I couldn’t think of another .

  13. marcus classis

    Thanks Iain, I did not know this bit: Ironically, ‘hijra’ is a derogatory Urdu/Hindi term for eunuchs, trannies and such.

    Yes, ironic (and funny)

    Is the use of the term to mean ‘invasion by migration’ a new meaning, or a wrong use of the term?

  14. egg_

    work is a dirty word for Marxists

    The generation of wealth?
    Marxists are into wealth redistribution, just like the UN.

  15. Bruce of Newcastle

    Further to my comment I see two relevant articles over at Breitbart today:

    Polish Prime Minister: J_ws Also Perpetrated Holocaust

    The Times of Israel reports: Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said Saturday that alongside Poles, J_ws were also responsible for perpetrating the Holocaust.

    That may be overstepping his actual words but it’s clear he was, at very least, extremely insensitive.

    Polish J_ws Stunned, Scared by Eruption of Anti-Semitism

    Since communism’s collapse in 1989, J_wish life has been re-emerging, with young people feeling safe enough in Poland’s democracy to embrace a heritage their parents and grandparents had largely repressed.

    Yet anxieties have been creeping in amid a global rise in xenophobia that was also felt in Poland.

    I think these are important because Breitbart is seen by many as “far right”. Yet here they are standing up for Polish J_ws. Rightly so.

    What I think this is saying is the Polish people are so fed up with Eurosocialists and Islam that they will vote in these people despite their anti-Semitism – just to get rid of the more dangerous mobs.

    The correct answer for the Right in Poland is of course to reject Eurosocialists, Islam AND nutty anti-Semites.

  16. RobK

    Thanks Boris,
    Interesting angle and discussion.

  17. manalive

    The nationalities or ethic groups of Eastern Europe that Boris mentions didn’t exist as nations before the Great War, they were subsumed into Austro-Hungary, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire, and German States and were created as a result of President Wilson’s “Fourteen Points” in 1918, further subdivided following the fall of the Eastern Bloc.
    That may explain the exaggerated nationalism in some of those countries.

  18. John

    No, this law does not ” … essentially criminalises any suggestions that Poles were complicit in the Holocaust”. This is the fake interpretation by revisionists that falsely and persistently have insisted that Nazi German Death Camps were Polish Death Camps when they were nothing of the sort. If you want to know the purpose of the proposed Polish law, hear it clearly, first hand, from the Prime Minister of Poland, who emphatically states that: ” … the holocaust was an unspeakable crime those who attempt to deny it should always be met with unequivocal condemnation”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTLiWPFSuQ4

  19. So your argument boils down to, ‘nationalism is bad because in the past people we were mean to the Jews’.

    Israel has its borders and protects them with great strength and willpower. But other nations aren’t permitted to do this unless they bow before the great alter of holocaust guilt?

    You’ve had a 75 year run of guilt tripping the world. Nobody gives a shit anymore.

  20. Cato

    @manalive.
    They existed as nations, not as nation states. A nation can exist without a state (e.g.: the Poles, or Kurds, or for that matter the J-ws). It’s no wonder that, once the get (or regain) their own state, they are reluctant to give it up.

  21. zyconoclast

    As a general rule, we should support all legislation that is aimed at suppressing the intellectual freedom of Leftists, until Leftists are forced to the negotiating table.

    No prisoners!

  22. struth

    But there are some problems. Prior to WWII, European nationalists were often openly anti-Semitic, while the left stood up for Jewish rights

    Excuse me, but this has got to be the biggest pile of shit ever written here.

    The left have always hated J..ws and Hitler was a socialist.
    A raging Lefty.
    The Arabs loved him for it.
    Still do.
    Please show one example anywhere of the left sticking up for J… rights.

    You have written a whole lot of crap based on the flawed concept of what a nationalist is, so please explain to me what a soldier fighting Hitler in a British Uniform was, if he wasn’t fighting for his nation, and a nationalist.
    He wasn’t fighting for his street, his Aunty Doreen and Uncle Fred.
    They didn’t supply him the uniform of the family.
    He was in the uniform of a nation fighting other nationalists who had a shitty fucking idiot socialist as a leader.
    A raging hate filled anti semetic lefty like they mostly are.

    were perceived by nationalists to be inherently internationalist and cosmopolitan in nature, or worse, representative of a trans-national body, the world Jewry. Nazism was a culmination of these sentiments.

    Bullshit.
    They were perceived to be shonky in business because they dealt with each other and did what wogs have been doing for years as well.
    They got control of powerful businesses, were good at it, and kept it amongst themselves, that caused resentment and envy.
    That’s the lefty trait that causes the anti-Semitism.
    That’s what culminated in left wing Nazis.

    This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. Jews established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the Jews, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

    Over simplified, no.
    Over stupid, definitely.
    The nationalists that aren’t socialist have always been fine with Israel and have never been any different.
    The nationalists that fought to free them from socialists.
    The left became increasingly Hostile?
    FMD.
    How much more hostile than the Holocaust can you get?
    They (the left) have never stopped hating Israel.
    They are simply seen as the one percenters, the people with the wealth, lefties hate anyone like that.

    Poland was invaded.
    As was Hungary.
    Do you have the slightest idea of what that meant?
    Do you really think Poles had any choice in anything.
    They were some of the most aggressive fighters against the Nazis and they don’t need to own Nazi socialist atrocities committed on their soil.
    It was Germany’s soil at the Time.

    The trend is even more visible in the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In these tiny countries former Waffen-SS veterans and their supporters organise annual marches through their capital cities and are portrayed as freedom fighters who fought the bad guys (the Soviets). Given how much these countries suffered at the hands of the Russians and Soviets, this behaviour is somewhat understandable, but it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.

    Sunni and Shi-ite, Nazis and communists, all fight each other, what’s so hard to understand here?
    They’re all totalitarian leftism.

    Look, honestly the rest is just snot, because of what I have pointed out here you can see this left wing propaganda victim is confusing the whole issue trying to make a case for nationalism bad, causes wars.

    Socialism causes wars.
    Nationalists who weren’t socialists fought Hitler.
    Poland was invaded and under Nazi control for the entire war.
    It was Germany during WW2.
    Hitler’s socialist Germany, fought by our nationalist ancestors and traitorous arseholes like Boris here wants to spew this vile crap out, directly insulting my ancestors who put on a national uniform and fought socialists so he can dribble this shit, unchallenged.
    No fucking way.

    Nazi.
    National Socialist (the problem) workers party.

  23. struth

    But there are some problems. Prior to WWII, European nationalists were often openly anti-Semitic, while the left stood up for Jewish rights

    Excuse me, but this has got to be the biggest pile of shit ever written here.

    The left have always hated J..ws and Hitler was a socialist.
    A raging Lefty.
    The Arabs loved him for it.
    Still do.
    Please show one example anywhere of the left sticking up for J… rights.

    You have written a whole lot of crap based on the flawed concept of what a nationalist is, so please explain to me what a soldier fighting Hitler in a British Uniform was, if he wasn’t fighting for his nation, and a nationalist.
    He wasn’t fighting for his street, his Aunty Doreen and Uncle Fred.
    They didn’t supply him the uniform of the family.
    He was in the uniform of a nation fighting other nationalists who had a shitty fucking idiot socialist as a leader.
    A raging hate filled anti semetic lefty like they mostly are.

    were perceived by nationalists to be inherently internationalist and cosmopolitan in nature, or worse, representative of a trans-national body, the world Jry. Nazism was a culmination of these sentiments.

    Bullshit.
    They were perceived to be shonky in business because they dealt with each other and did what wogs have been doing for years as well.
    They got control of powerful businesses, were good at it, and kept it amongst themselves, that caused resentment and envy.
    That’s the lefty trait that causes the anti-Semitism.
    That’s what culminated in left wing Nazis.

    This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. Jews established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the J,,s, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

    Over simplified, no.
    Over stupid, definitely.
    The nationalists that aren’t socialist have always been fine with Israel and have never been any different.
    The nationalists that fought to free them from socialists.
    The left became increasingly Hostile?
    FMD.
    How much more hostile than the Holocaust can you get?
    They (the left) have never stopped hating Israel.
    They are simply seen as the one percenters, the people with the wealth, lefties hate anyone like that.

    Poland was invaded.
    As was Hungary.
    Do you have the slightest idea of what that meant?
    Do you really think Poles had any choice in anything.
    They were some of the most aggressive fighters against the Nazis and they don’t need to own Nazi socialist atrocities committed on their soil.
    It was Germany’s soil at the Time.

    The trend is even more visible in the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In these tiny countries former Waffen-SS veterans and their supporters organise annual marches through their capital cities and are portrayed as freedom fighters who fought the bad guys (the Soviets). Given how much these countries suffered at the hands of the Russians and Soviets, this behaviour is somewhat understandable, but it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.

    Sunni and Shi-ite, Nazis and communists, all fight each other, what’s so hard to understand here?
    They’re all totalitarian leftism.

    Look, honestly the rest is just snot, because of what I have pointed out here you can see this left wing propaganda victim is confusing the whole issue trying to make a case for nationalism bad, causes wars.

    Socialism causes wars.
    Nationalists who weren’t socialists fought Hitler.
    Poland was invaded and under Nazi control for the entire war.
    It was Germany during WW2.
    Hitler’s socialist Germany, fought by our nationalist ancestors and traitorous arseholes like Boris here wants to spew this vile crap out, directly insulting my ancestors who put on a national uniform and fought socialists so he can dribble this shit, unchallenged.
    No fucking way.

    Nazi.
    National Socialist (the problem) workers party.

  24. BorisG

    Israel has its borders and protects them with great strength and willpower. But other nations aren’t permitted to do this unless they bow before the great alter of holocaust guilt?

    who said that? why can’t you support Poland’s immigration policies but oppose its stupid historical revisionism?

  25. struth

    But there are some problems. Prior to WWII, European nationalists were often openly anti-Semitic, while the left stood up for J.wish rights

    Excuse me, but this has got to be the biggest pile of shit ever written here.

    The left have always hated J..ws and Hitler was a socialist.
    A raging Lefty.
    The Arabs loved him for it.
    Still do.
    Please show one example anywhere of the left sticking up for J… rights.

    You have written a whole lot of crap based on the flawed concept of what a nationalist is, so please explain to me what a soldier fighting Hitler in a British Uniform was, if he wasn’t fighting for his nation, and a nationalist.
    He wasn’t fighting for his street, his Aunty Doreen and Uncle Fred.
    They didn’t supply him the uniform of the family.
    He was in the uniform of a nation fighting other nationalists who had a shitty fucking idiot socialist as a leader.
    A raging hate filled anti semetic lefty like they mostly are.

    were perceived by nationalists to be inherently internationalist and cosmopolitan in nature, or worse, representative of a trans-national body, the world Jry. Nazism was a culmination of these sentiments.

    Bullshit.
    They were perceived to be shonky in business because they dealt with each other and did what wogs have been doing for years as well.
    They got control of powerful businesses, were good at it, and kept it amongst themselves, that caused resentment and envy.
    That’s the lefty trait that causes the anti-Semitism.
    That’s what culminated in left wing Nazis.

    This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. Jews established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the J,,s, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

    Over simplified, no.
    Over stupid, definitely.
    The nationalists that aren’t socialist have always been fine with Israel and have never been any different.
    The nationalists that fought to free them from socialists.
    The left became increasingly Hostile?
    FMD.
    How much more hostile than the Holocaust can you get?
    They (the left) have never stopped hating Israel.
    They are simply seen as the one percenters, the people with the wealth, lefties hate anyone like that.

    Poland was invaded.
    As was Hungary.
    Do you have the slightest idea of what that meant?
    Do you really think Poles had any choice in anything.
    They were some of the most aggressive fighters against the Nazis and they don’t need to own Nazi socialist atrocities committed on their soil.
    It was Germany’s soil at the Time.

    The trend is even more visible in the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In these tiny countries former Waffen-SS veterans and their supporters organise annual marches through their capital cities and are portrayed as freedom fighters who fought the bad guys (the Soviets). Given how much these countries suffered at the hands of the Russians and Soviets, this behaviour is somewhat understandable, but it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.

    Sunni and Shi-ite, Nazis and communists, all fight each other, what’s so hard to understand here?
    They’re all totalitarian leftism.

    Look, honestly the rest is just snot, because of what I have pointed out here you can see this left wing propaganda victim is confusing the whole issue trying to make a case for nationalism bad, causes wars.

    Socialism causes wars.
    Nationalists who weren’t socialists fought Hitler.
    Poland was invaded and under Nazi control for the entire war.
    It was Germany during WW2.
    Hitler’s socialist Germany, fought by our nationalist ancestors and traitorous arseholes like Boris here wants to spew this vile crap out, directly insulting my ancestors who put on a national uniform and fought socialists so he can dribble this shit, unchallenged.
    No fucking way.

    Nazi.
    National Socialist (the problem) workers party.

  26. BorisG

    but in practice it serves the useful interests of putting Germany and the EU on the moral back foot, and precluding any means of emotional manipulation that the EU might use against Poland – such as, you were complicit in the Holocaust, so to repay your guilt you must take in 100,000 Muslim “refugees”.

    I think quite the opposite. Until this, Poland was supported in its tensions with the EU by many others who also oppose the EU and the UN, such as Trump, Israel and Russia. Not anymore, not to that extent anyway.

  27. John

    To Bruce of Newcastle: Here is Morawiecki’s actual response: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5118011,00.html For starters, tell me, please, why these nasty pieces of work should be covered up:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_K%C3%BCbler
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBagiew
    https://listverse.com/2017/01/03/top-10-nazi-collaborators-who-were-jews/
    If people remove their blinkers, and do some research, they’ll find a lot more along these lines. Then tell me, how were his facts “extremely insensitive”?

    Also, familiarise yourself with the the work of Witold Pilecki: http://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/stamps%20Judaica%20Newsletter/JUDAICA%20NEWS%2086%20-%20JAN%202013.pdf

    For his reward, look here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piotr_%C5%9Amieta%C5%84ski
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_R%C3%B3%C5%BCa%C5%84ski
    Roman Romkowski, et al: http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/volunteer-to-Auschwitz.html
    Now, tell me more about your sensitivities.

  28. struth

    Be nice if you could counter this left wing bullshit without being put into moderation

  29. BorisG

    you were complicit in the Holocaust

    please quote anyone within the EU, such as Merkel, who ever said something like this to Poland.

    they score their own goal by drawing attention to their record.

  30. struth

    But there are some problems. Prior to WWII, European nationalists were often openly anti-Semitic, while the left stood up for J.wish rights

    Excuse me, but this has got to be the biggest pile of shit ever written here.

    The left have always hated J..ws and Hitler was a socialist.
    A raging Lefty.
    The Arabs loved him for it.
    Still do.
    Please show one example anywhere of the left sticking up for J… rights.

  31. struth

    You have written a whole lot of crap based on the flawed concept of what a nationalist is, so please explain to me what a soldier fighting Hitler in a British Uniform was, if he wasn’t fighting for his nation, and a nationalist.
    He wasn’t fighting for his street, his Aunty Doreen and Uncle Fred.
    They didn’t supply him the uniform of the family.
    He was in the uniform of a nation fighting other nationalists who had a shitty fucking idiot socialist as a leader.
    A raging hate filled anti semetic lefty like they mostly are

  32. struth

    were perceived by nationalists to be inherently internationalist and cosmopolitan in nature, or worse, representative of a trans-national body, the world Jry. Nazism was a culmination of these sentiments.

    Bullshit.
    They were perceived to be shonky in business because they dealt with each other and did what w ogs have been doing for years as well.
    They got control of powerful businesses, were good at it, and kept it amongst themselves, that caused resentment and envy.
    That’s the lefty trait that causes the anti-Semitism.
    That’s what culminated in left wing Nazis.

  33. struth

    This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. Jews established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the J,,s, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

    Over simplified, no.
    Over stupid, definitely.
    The nationalists that aren’t socialist have always been fine with Israel and have never been any different.
    The nationalists that fought to free them from socialists.
    The left became increasingly Hostile?
    FMD.
    How much more hostile than the Holocaust can you get?
    They (the left) have never stopped hating Israel.
    They are simply seen as the one percenters, the people with the wealth, lefties hate anyone like that.

    Poland was invaded.
    As was Hungary.
    Do you have the slightest idea of what that meant?
    Do you really think Poles had any choice in anything.
    They were some of the most aggressive fighters against the Nazis and they don’t need to own Nazi socialist atrocities committed on their soil.
    It was Germany’s soil at the Time.

  34. struth

    This all changed after WWII and establishment of the State of Israel. J.ws established a state of their own, and indeed asserted their own nationalism. From then on, nationalists around the world gradually embraced Israel and Israeli nationalists as partners against internationalists and cosmopolitans. At the same time, the left became increasingly hostile to Israel and the Zionists, and by extension to the J,,s, precisely because they, the left, opposed nationalism. This is the big picture, if somewhat oversimplified.

    Over simplified, no.
    Over stupid, definitely.
    The nationalists that aren’t socialist have always been fine with Israel and have never been any different.
    The nationalists that fought to free them from socialists.
    The left became increasingly Hostile?
    FMD.
    How much more hostile than the Holocaust can you get?
    They (the left) have never stopped hating Israel.
    They are simply seen as the one percenters, the people with the wealth, lefties hate anyone like that.

    Poland was invaded.
    As was Hungary.
    Do you have the slightest idea of what that meant?
    Do you really think Poles had any choice in anything.
    They were some of the most aggressive fighters against the Nazis and they don’t need to own Nazi socialist atrocities committed on their soil.
    It was Germany’s soil at the Time.

  35. egg_

    were created as a result of President Wilson’s “Fourteen Points” in 1918

    The Yanks had to sort out the Euroweenies infighting in two “World Wars”?
    The lessons from History is that we don’t learn from History.

  36. James Hargrave

    Admiral Horthy was a weak ‘strongman’ somewhat adrift after the partial eclipse of Bethlen. The system was autocratic to a degree, but with a parliament, elections etc. It was neither a dictatorship nor totalitarian. Some of his prime ministers, starting with Gombos, were not very savoury types. Some were entirely honourable old style upper class conservatives. The real nastiness occurred under German occupation (1944), abated by Horthy when he had wriggle room, then revived with a vengeance after Horthy was deposed (by the Germans in Oct 1944). Look at Teleki, Kallay and Lakatos, and even Bardossy. I trust that the current Hungarian government has been kind to their memory too. And before anyone asks, I have no family etc. connexions with Hungary.

  37. struth

    The trend is even more visible in the three Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. In these tiny countries former Waffen-SS veterans and their supporters organise annual marches through their capital cities and are portrayed as freedom fighters who fought the bad guys (the Soviets). Given how much these countries suffered at the hands of the Russians and Soviets, this behaviour is somewhat understandable, but it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.

    Sunni and Shi-ite, Nazis and communists, all fight each other, what’s so hard to understand here?
    They’re all totalitarian leftism.

    Look, honestly the rest is just snot, because of what I have pointed out here you can see this left wing propaganda victim is confusing the whole issue trying to make a case for nationalism bad, causes wars.

    Socialism causes wars.
    Nationalists who weren’t socialists fought Hitler.
    (and by the way, they were mostly those terrible white western men)
    Poland was invaded and under Nazi control for the entire war.
    It was Germany during WW2.
    Hitler’s socialist Germany, fought by our nationalist ancestors and traitorous arseholes like Boris here wants to spew this vile crap out, directly insulting my ancestors who put on a national uniform and fought socialists so he can dribble this shit, unchallenged.
    No fucking way.

    Nazi.
    National Socialist (the problem) workers party.

  38. Rex

    Good article, except wrong to say the left stood up for Jewish rights during the Dreyfus Affair. The left thought of Jews as capitalists and Zola in his article attacked socialists and the French state alike.

  39. BorisG

    struth, please spare us your crap.

    were the people who tried Dreyfus, socialists?
    were monarchists who organised pogroms, the Black Hundred, socialists?
    were the White army that fought against Bolsheviks and orchestrated even bigger pogroms, socialists?

  40. BorisG

    and if it chooses to rehabilitate Stalin, that is its own internal business no matter what I think of it – his worst impacts were on the USSR itself, including Russia. International socialism was and is a murderous carnage of misery, yet Russia rehabbing Stalin is mostly their own affair.

    No. Bolsheviks and Stalin are directly and indirectly responsible for most of the calamities of the 20th century (if not beyond) for the entire world. Including Nazism (which would have never come to power without Bolshevik threat).

  41. Bruce of Newcastle

    Be nice if you could counter this left wing bullshit without being put into moderation

    Hehe. Struth, not only did I have to edit all the mentions of “J_w” in my comment but I had to produce two tinyurl links to go into it because the original links have verboten word in them.

    At least we haven’t had a birdstrike for a while, touch wood.

    Poland was invaded.

    And by Napoleon* in the early 1800’s. So they have a looooong memory of Euroweenie jackboots tramping over their countryside. And that’s after they relieved Vienna a century before at odds of 2:1 against.

    * technically freed from the Russians, only to become French clients. Apparently they still like him though.

  42. herodotus

    Just admit it Boris – you’re a globalist and you are not a fan of either the Israelis or the former eastern bloc countries who are (due to their non-imbibance of pc kool aid) slamming the door against the EU varmints and their multiplying influx of disrupter rats.

  43. struth

    <

    were the people who tried Dreyfus, socialists?
    were monarchists who organised pogroms, the Black Hundred, socialists?
    were the White army that fought against Bolsheviks and orchestrated even bigger pogroms, socialists?

    You are going a fair way back to clutch at straws.
    Shall we call pharaoh a nationalist?

    The anti-Semitism you clutch at in your examples has nothing to do with nationalism.
    The drefus affair, FFS he was mostly supported by nationalists (republicans of the day if you want to got there)

    You’ve got nothing.
    Disgusting anti western, anti democratic garbage.
    You have no democracy if you have no nation.
    Are you against nations, and their existence Boris?

  44. Tel

    First point is that the National Socialist philosophy was indeed based on socialism and they would happily sacrifice any individual for the common good, which they saw as equivalent to the national good and also the promotion of racial and cultural unity within that nation. There is plenty of documentation left behind where these people explained themselves, and they were an offshoot of the left.

    Second point, the State of Israel was established BEFORE WWII, it was established by the Balfour Declaration in 1917, and the National Socialists fully supported the concept of Israel (it completely fit their philosophy that each ethnic group should have a homeland) they even had a program of shipping Jϵws out of Germany precisely with the purpose in mind of creating an identifiable ethno-state. Such separation of people based on ancestry is racist, but it is at least self-consistent and should be easy enough to figure out, even if you don’t agree with it.

    Third point here:

    Yet old habits die hard. This was highlighted last week, when the Polish parliament approved a law that essentially criminalises any suggestions that Poles were complicit in the Holocaust.

    Please, no trickery. The law criminalizes the attempt to impose collectively blame on Poland AS A NATION for the Holocaust… it does not in any way protect individual Poles from blame if they personally played a part. I am 100% sure that everyone on this blog (even Monty) can understand the distinction.

    When confronted, Polish nationalist political leaders say that the law is needed to protect the truth and the good name of Poland.

    OK, so you do understand the distinction. The good name of Poland the nation, does not correspond with any automatic justification of the actions of every Polish individual throughout history. No nation can 100% be responsible for every citizen’s actions. We have had Australians go and fight for ISIS in the Middle East and I sure as heck don’t want to be held responsible personally or collectively for the behaviour of such people. However, in Australia we have good continuity of government and ever since David Hicks we have had a clear law that discourages such things. Poland (as a nation) was severely disrupted in terms of continuity of government thanks to, you know, being invaded and then later on being abandoned by their allies to the Communists.

    I can understand there might be a few Polish people who feel they did the right thing at each stage and were persistently shafted, and now are getting lined up to be shafted again. That’s kind of how it looks from a distance. Now they are going to be made to pay reparations for actions of certain leftists within their midst and we have propagandists trying to conflate the actions of individuals with actions of a government in order to make this possible.

  45. Tel

    … requires anyone commenting on WWII to ascribe equal culpability for starting the war to both the Nazis and the Soviet Union. They should do this at once to piss off Putin.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Davidlowrendezvous.png

    Very good point, but would it piss off Putin? Russia has already admitted that the Soviet Union was a bad idea, and at least ostensibly not something they intend to repeat. Putin did compare Stalin to Oliver Cromwell, but I don’t believe that was with the intent of emulating either of them.

  46. pbw

    Japan is an interesting example of national guilt avoidance. China has been loudly reminding Japan of the horrors of the Japanese war against China in the late 30s and into the 40s. Abe has pointedly rejected this, visiting the Yasukuni shrine in 2013. The Chinese, of course, never beat their breasts about the horrors of the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution.

    None of these complaints are about the current behaviour of living people. If they ostensibly reflect a desire to prevent a recurrence of behaviours from the past, they are clearly designed to use a widely promoted view of the past to control present behaviour. If in the estimation of a government (preferably respected) such behavioural control would lead to very undesirable outcomes, like, say, the flooding of Europe with a million culturally unassimilable migrants, or a supine anti-militarist attitude in the face of a neighbour’s aggressively expansionist militarism, it is incumbent on said government to counteract those influences as an aspect of good governance.

    The balance of beneficial and detrimental effects from any mix of policies can never be known in advance: the best that can be hoped for is that policies be developed and prosecuted with goodwill and a critical chorus.

  47. rickw

    You forget the Dutch. They didnt round them up but they liked to point out jewish neighbours. Source; Dutch friends 25 years ago.

    Jock, the origin of this is a little more complex.

    The Nazis tracked down J e w s by running census data through IBM Hollerith machines (modern day equivalent is a database sort).

    These machines and technology were expensive and as a result tended to reside in the military, large corporations and academia.

    What set the Dutch apart was that their academia fully supported and assisted with this data mining. In virtually all other countries there were brave and concerted attempts to corrupt the data mining activities.

  48. marcus classis

    Boris: why can’t you support Poland’s immigration policies but oppose its stupid historical revisionism?

    Don’t know that it genuinely is historical revisionism where the reporting has come from MSM sources. They are totally untrustworthy and would rather lie than tell the truth.

    In any case, Poland ceased to exist in 1939 except as a geographical expression, and the National Socialists and International Socialists both had plans to eradicate/ enslave the Poles. The history of that time in that place is terrible. In such circumstances, there’s precious little good stuff happening.

    The point today is that Polish/ Visegrad Group nationalism might just save a big chunk of Europe from what’s happening in germany and France etc. No wonder the left hates them.

  49. Jimf

    “Nationalism”, or pride in a nation’s values and traditions is in itself a worthy ambition. But like all worthy ambitions it doesn’t exist in a vacuum and has been cynically twisted by power seeking tyrants through the ages.That’s the great paradox of nationalism: the stronger it is as a political vehicle the more dangerous it is.As a pure concept of identity and unity all good;as a tool of manipulation very dangerous.
    Patriotism on the other hand seeks to unite without prejudice or blame.
    The Jews in the first half of the 20th century were always going to be a political football for tyrants seeking a vehicle for power .The fact that various sociopaths in various political swamps jumped on the Jew hating train is not surprising. The fact that this approach was not hegemous amongst educated citizens is not unsurprising.The scary thing is that so few bastard animals amongst Germany, Austria , Hungary,Russia et al were able to inflict so much horror amidst their larger people’s apathy or brainswashed complicity.
    Trying to rationalise the behaviour of European players 80 years on is always going to be a compromised exercise.

  50. BorisG

    answer to many of you: No one ever blamed Poland as a nation. But it is documented that many Poles aided he Nazis voluntarily and even killed and robbed J*ws after liberation.

    The law is completely unnecessary but such laws and practices appear to be the hallmark of modern nationalism. A friend commented about this post: Trump is not so bad… Trump? I never mentioned him. Yes but you surely meant him. No, I replied. American, Australian and even Chinese strains are different, because they are not ethnic.

    This bug is specifically eastern European.

  51. BorisG

    The point today is that Polish/ Visegrad Group nationalism might just save a big chunk of Europe from what’s happening in germany and France etc. No wonder the left hates them.

    Perhaps. This is consistent with my point of view. It is the price of nationalism. Perhaps the price worth paying…

  52. BorisG

    And while we are at it: Poland does stick it to the EU but does not want to leave because:
    1. money, 2. Russia/putin

    It looks like they want to have the cake and eat it.

  53. Paridell

    “it is hard to comprehend how swastika bearing soldiers in SS uniforms are someone’s freedom fighters.” More study required!

  54. Paridell

    “The case of the Ukraine is somewhat unique.” No, it’s not. It is either unique or not unique. A thing cannot be somewhat unique, almost inevitable, virtually universal, or any other of the qualified absolute conditions favoured by uncertain students and fudging journos.

  55. Paridell

    Tel, the Balfour Declaration did not create the State of Israel. It promised a “National Home for the Jews” in the Holy Land, an idea that had been circulating in British circles for some time. The National Home was not to be a state, but rather a form of protectorate under British rule. It was seen as a necessary condition for the eventual conversion of the Jews to Christianity (see Barbara Tuchman, Bible and Sword).

    Nor did the Nazis favour a Jewish state, as you claim (and the idea that each ethnic group deserved a homeland came from Woodrow Wilson, not Adolf Hitler). In the twenties and early thirties the Nazis campaigned to force Jews to leave Germany, and Palestine was as good a destination as any in their eyes. But extermination was implicit in their thinking and was its logical endpoint. They acted on this ambition as soon as they were able to (see Lucy Dawidowicz, The War against the Jews 1933-45).

  56. struth

    The law is completely unnecessary but such laws and practices appear to be the hallmark of modern nationalism. A friend commented about this post: Trump is not so bad… Trump? I never mentioned him. Yes but you surely meant him. No, I replied. American, Australian and even Chinese strains are different, because they are not ethnic.

    This bug is specifically eastern European.

    Bullshit again.
    They are being judged collectively by collectivist lefties as explained to you above, you nimrod.

    You know what the left are trying to do to Poland here, and you are supporting it by this bullshit about “nationalism”
    As a nation, “collectively” Poland did nothing wrong.
    Every country has people who collaborate or head over to the enemy in times of conflict as pointed out to you regards Australian mussies going over to fight with the Taliban.

    Using your logic, the USA should declare war on us because as a nation we have helped the Taliban chop peoples heads off.
    How fucking ridiculous, and you know it.
    There was no Poland in WW2.
    It was the first country invaded and it was Germany throughout the war.
    Polish people have every right to call this blatant left wing attack on their nation for not taking Mussies for what it is.
    Shit full lies.
    The Poles aren’t responsible for any of the evil that happened on their soil.
    Especially when it wasn’t their soil.

    Socialists murdered J…s.
    Nationalists fought socialist nationalists, but you find it’s the nationalist part that is the problem.
    How utterly left wing insane.
    Again , I ask you Boris G, what have you got against nations and democracy?
    You can’t have democracy without it, so why the beef?
    Why are you trying to make the crimes of Socialism the crimes of nationalists, when nationalists fought socialism?

  57. JC

    Just scanning the comments (good post Boris) that people are confusing nationalism with the right to sovereignty. These two terms don’t historically convey the same thing.

  58. Boris

    You know what the left are trying to do to Poland here

    You mean leftists like Bibi Natanyahu and Britebard, right ?

    Just because I don’t call you a moron does not mean you aren’t one.

  59. struth

    You mean leftists like Bibi Natanyahu and Britebard, right ?

    Just because I don’t call you a moron does not mean you aren’t one.

    Oh please spare me.
    J…s won’t hear of anyone being let off a guilt trip.
    It’s what they do.
    They learned from our aboriginals or vice versa.
    Most of Breitbarts people wold be J..s, it’s the USA for god sakes.

    They’re always j..s first when it comes to the holocaust.
    Try and sift through the shit and come up for air.

  60. struth

    Socialists murdered J…s.
    Nationalists fought socialist nationalists, but you find it’s the nationalist part that is the problem.

    How utterly left wing insane.
    Again , I ask you Boris G, what have you got against nations and democracy?
    You can’t have democracy without it, so why the beef?
    Why are you trying to make the crimes of Socialism the crimes of nationalists, when nationalists fought socialism?

    A bit too hard for you?

  61. Boris

    J…s won’t hear of anyone being let off a guilt trip.

    Yes and rightly so.

    And what Poland’s role was is irrelevant. Laws banning ‘insults to nations’ are idiotic. As are laws criminalizing holocaust denial. Especially in the age of internet.

  62. Boris

    Just scanning the comments (good post Boris) that people are confusing nationalism with the right to sovereignty. These two terms don’t historically convey the same thing.

    Yes good point, but to be fair, nationalism is a rather broad term, sometimes meaning just normal patriotism (right to sovereignty) and sometimes extreme exceptionalism and hatered of others. Hence confusion is understandable.

  63. J.H.

    The real crux of the matter is that Polish people are Sick of these Nazi Death Camps being called “Polish Death Camps”….. They are not Polish. They were set up and operated by the Nazis…. end of story.

    To try and suggest that the few Poles complicit with the Nazis in maintaining Polish Society under Occupation somehow makes Poland as a Nation complicit in Nazi war crimes would be as stupid as trying to say all Jews are responsible for their own Genocide because some Jewish leaders ran the Ghettos for the Nazis.

    Ultimately the Poles,the Slavic races, the Gypsies and any other undesirable race or culture, were all slated for liquidation. That was going to be the fate of these peoples and cultures….. They were all in the same boat. They were all feeding the Nazi crocodile hoping it would eat them last. The Jews just happened to be the first on the list.

    So the Polish PM is not altogether wrong when he makes his statement in today’s Context…. Poles are sick of being branded offenders when they too where slated for annihilation.

    These places are not Polish Death Camps. They are Nazi Death Camps…. and had the Nazis won, more than just Jews would have been turning to ash in them…

  64. struth

    And what Poland’s role was is irrelevant. Laws banning ‘insults to nations’ are idiotic. As are laws criminalizing holocaust denial. Especially in the age of internet.

    As I can see you are starting to see the error in your ways here, can you also not see that this is a way of letting the E.U. left know their bullshit will not be tolerated .
    We have learned that if you let the left rewrite history, even slightly, it has disastrous effects.
    To the point where people actually get Brainwashed into believing Hitler was right wing and the problem with him wasn’t that he was a socialist, but he believed in nationalism, and people are insanely confused about it still in 2018.

    Nationalism is not about race.
    Racism is about race.
    And the Racism and anti Semitism of Hitler is born of “collectivist” discrimination.
    In this world you are either a collectivist (left wing) or an individualist.
    This is a vital point in understanding racism and why it is found predominantly on the left.
    Hitler’s racism was bog standard lefty racism.

    I am an individualist.
    I am a nationalist.
    I am not a racist because I believe in borders, democracy.
    The left are doing real evil hear with the narrative that if you believe in these things you are actually a racist.
    Because they want our western borders down, they are saying that if you believe in nations you are just a white racist, as was Hitler.
    And you are swallowing this bullshit and spewing it back out here.
    Again, I say to you, your whole warped theory has been based on the lie that nationalism in the west is white racism.
    When in fact, white nationalists fought Hitler’s Socialist white racism.

  65. Caviar

    What a load of bullshit. Most j ews escaped the holocaust but most poles suffered under the Nazis then the Soviets. Poles did what they could to help the j ews at the time. If anything descendants of those j ews who were helped by the poles owe them, not the other way around.

    Your how bullshit about nationalism = anti-Semitism is a straw man. No non native minority is owed any accommodation in a sovereign nation.

  66. Fisky

    And what Poland’s role was is irrelevant. Laws banning ‘insults to nations’ are idiotic. As are laws criminalizing holocaust denial. Especially in the age of internet.

    It’s extremely important, because the Polish people as did not collaborate with the Holocaust, so it’s quite reasonable for the government’s official line to reflect that.

  67. BorisG

    it’s quite reasonable for the government’s official line to reflect that.

    Not sure about government’s official line but certainly not in the criminal law.

    your understanding of the history is quite distorted (as we know people who had to hide from Poles after the Nazis were gone) but this is only a secondary point.

  68. BorisG

    Most j ews escaped the holocaust

    does anyone have any idea what this even means? There apparently was a holocaust but J ews escaped!!!

  69. struth

    your understanding of the history is quite distorted (as we know people who had to hide from Poles after the Nazis were gone) but this is only a secondary point.

    This point has been debunked but you persist.

    There are people in Australia that Australians must hide from.
    Any number of mixes.
    Homos and radical mussies for example.
    There are French Jooos who are leaving France in droves and hiding from French citizens as we speak.
    Those French citizens are nationalists according to you?
    Because they are not.
    They are totalitarian (left wing) collectivists called Mussies.
    They are racists.
    Same old lefty racism.
    Should patriotic French nationalists be held responsible, because those mussies are French citizens?
    Anti semitism was never part of Polish national policy, or done by nationalists.
    To talk as if Poland even existed in WW2 is a lie.

    To say a few racists after the war in Poland is an indictment against nationalism is absurd.

  70. BoN

    The problem with the internationalism of the Left is a boot grinding a human face forever.
    Nationalism is like the compartments of a ship. If there is an influx of toxic ideology it can be quarantined by borders. Then the nations which have a winning set of policies and ideology will win and the losers will lose.

    Perzakerly.
    Every dystopian future you can think of has its roots in the concept of a World Government/Uniparty hegemony.
    In very much the same way that Federalism isn’t working in Australia – there’s no competition between states in terms of taxation/welfare/business environment.

  71. Fisky

    your understanding of the history is quite distorted (as we know people who had to hide from Poles after the Nazis were gone) but this is only a secondary point.

    There were always going to be reprisals against people suspected (or guilty) of supporting the Soviet Union, so it is sad that some Jews were caught up in that. But the point remains that it is ludicrous to indict the Polish nation in the Holocaust, and it is very sensible – for diplomatic reasons – of the Polish government to make it illegal to claim otherwise.

  72. Fisky

    your understanding of the history is quite distorted (as we know people who had to hide from Poles after the Nazis were gone) but this is only a secondary point.

    There were always going to be reprisals against people suspected (or guilty) of supporting the Soviet Union, so it is sad that some J3ws were caught up in that. But the point remains that it is ludicrous to indict the Polish nation in the Holocaust, and it is very sensible – for diplomatic reasons – of the Polish government to make it illegal to claim otherwise.

  73. Fisky

    Taking Boris’ logic, just imagine if we were to collectively indict the J3ws – a stateless people like the Poles after 1939 – for supporting Communism in the inter-war years with much higher than average intensity as compared to the average gentile. I’m sure Boris would be fine with that. /sarc

  74. Not taking sides in this discussion but just want to ask an – I believe – pertinent question:
    If the Russians want to rehabilitate Stalin, and it’s their own business, why cannot the Germans rehabilitate Hitler, and the Italians, Mussolini, and the Japanese, Hirohito?

    Winston ducks, because he’s aware that the question will be viewed through each contributors own Prism of Objectivity.

  75. Caviar;

    What a load of bullshit. Most j ews escaped the holocaust but most poles suffered under the Nazis then the Soviets.

    So only Gypsies went into the ovens?
    Do you have proof of that?
    (Apart from the Great Caravan Surplus of 1945.)

  76. BorisG

    To say a few racists after the war in Poland is an indictment against nationalism is absurd.

    Indictment or not, this law is idiotic.

  77. BorisG

    Taking Boris’ logic, just imagine if we were to collectively indict the J3ws – a stateless people like the Poles after 1939 – for supporting Communism in the inter-war years with much higher than average intensity as compared to the average gentile. I’m sure Boris would be fine with that. /sarc

    well many many people did precisely that.

  78. BorisG

    Besides I never said (and no one did) that Poland as a nation is responsible. Show me when someone said this.

  79. Boris

    If the Russians want to rehabilitate Stalin, and it’s their own business, why cannot the Germans rehabilitate Hitler, and the Italians, Mussolini,

    Exclellent question for Putin’s apologists.

    Well, Hirohito was never held responsible so does not need rehabilitation. And while Mussolini fully deserv d his fate, he was a saint in comparison to Stalin.

  80. mh

    Polish Premier Denounces Obama for Referring to a ‘Polish Death Camp’

    …A year later, the president made himself the target of a searing denunciation by Mr. Tusk after he referred on Tuesday to a “Polish death camp,” instead of a Nazi death camp in Poland, in bestowing a Presidential Medal of Freedom on Jan Karski, a hero of the Polish resistance to the Germans during World War II. Mr. Obama was guilty of “ignorance, lack of knowledge, bad intentions,” Mr. Tusk said.

  81. BorisG

    OK Obama made a stupid mistake, then apologised profusely. I don’t think even the most ardent Joows ever say these things. ignorance, lack of knowledge, bad intentions? no, just bad choice of words. Camps were in Poland, so it is not so far fetched to call them polish without implying that this was done by Poland or Poles.

  82. mh

    no, just bad choice of words.

    The great orator, Obama, made a bad choice of words.

    Camps were in Poland, so it is not so far fetched to call them polish without implying that this was done by Poland or Poles.

    * facepalm *

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