Abbott misses the boat (Again)

This op-ed from a year ago came up on my Facebook feed and I thought I’d repost it as it is still current and timely.

+++***+++

I have an op-ed in the AFR dealing with Tony Abbott’s comments about immigration and housing prices.

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Populism is being mainstreamed in Australia. At a book launch former prime minister Tony Abbott set out an aggressive populist agenda for Australia – presumably a second Abbott government. Abolish the renewable energy target, abolish the Human Rights Commission, cut spending, reform the Senate, and cut immigration.

This from a man who couldn’t amend a single section of the Racial Discrimination Act while PM. A man who increased taxes. A man whose government set the current renewable energy target. Good luck with that.

More concerning, however, is the increased antagonism towards immigration. To be sure, there is much to dislike about immigrants. I have loathed migrants ever since I became a citizen myself. They take our jobs, live in our houses, marry our women, deprive our children of jobs, and speak with strange accents. Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

Now Tony Abbott wasn’t as crude as that in his call for restricted immigration but many would nod in approval while thinking those, or similar, thoughts. The official line for restricting immigration is to reduce house prices (at least until housing starts pick up). As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.

Abbott accuses the federal Treasury of having a “big is best” mode of thinking. Quite right. Most economists support free trade and have done so since Adam Smith. Economists understand that more trade leads to improvements in our standard of living and greater prosperity. This is the basis for promoting international trade.

What many people don’t seem to realise is that domestic trade is good for prosperity too. We can trade with foreigners across international borders, or we can trade with immigrants right here at home. The case for free trade – an argument Abbott knows well – is also the case for immigration. We are better off when goods and services cross borders and when people cross borders, too.

International trade and immigration are not substitutes, they are compliments.

Arguments in favour of immigration usually emphasise diversity, food choice, and the like. These arguments are true, but trivial. The benefit of immigration comes from the fact that immigrants increase the size of the market.

Immigrants don’t just increase demand for Australian goods and services, they also increase the supply of Australian goods and services. This is especially so given the fact that Australia’s immigrant intake is skewed towards skilled migrants. People who are likely to quickly gain employment, start paying taxes, and making other contributions to Australian life.

A restriction on immigration is a restriction on economic prosperity – much like increased taxation.

If Abbott truly believes that housing starts are lagging population growth he should focus his attention on supply side barriers to entry and not on restricting the demand side of the economy. That means lowering taxation, cutting red tape, cutting green tape, and forcing the states to do so, too.

Sinclair Davidson is a professor of economics at RMIT University, a senior fellow at the Institute of Public Affairs, and an academic fellow at the Australian Taxpayers’ Alliance. He is an immigrant to Australia.

This entry was posted in Australian Story, Conservative politics, Economics and economy. Bookmark the permalink.

242 Responses to Abbott misses the boat (Again)

  1. Mr skeletor

    Abbott misses the boat. Turnbull sinks it.

  2. Mark A

    “As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.”

    No, but they don’t live under a bridge either, ie. they take up a portion of housing stock.

    My problem is not with the approved working migrants at all BTW, but with the number of goatbotherer unemployable welfare sucking country shopping ‘refugees’.

  3. Entropy

    Defending the asset holding classes again I see.

  4. Senile Old Guy

    My problem is not with the approved working migrants at all BTW, but with the number of goatbotherer unemployable welfare sucking country shopping ‘refugees’.

    …who often have no intention of integrating but, instead, bring their tribal violence and religious hatreds to Australia.

  5. egg_

    Robots are the new “skilled immigrants”, fvck the reffos.

  6. Billy Boy

    Senile Old Guy, I totally agree.

  7. A lot to like here Sinc but your avoidance of the issue of cultural clashes minimises any good points you make. Migrant fuelled violence may be small in quantity but large in effect.
    Also, not mentioning the drain many migrants place on current taxpayers through long term welfare is another argument you avoid through omission.
    Also missing is a critique of Abbott’s point that major cities are getting clogged. There is a significant argument in favour of restricting immigration unit that problem can be rectified.

    On populism – doesn’t every single politician and party depend on populism to win power? It’s not the dirty word you imply.

  8. Hydra

    Man, the AFR didn’t proof-read…at least 2 typos

    Otherwise good.

  9. stackja

    1901 Federation created a Commonwealth of former colonies. And the ALP will support any change, of course. MT has done what since knifing TA?

  10. Judith

    Mate – this is just not up to your standard.

    Your arguments have been basically refuted by the careful studies, particularly the argument that we need a bigger market. What because the economies of scale cannot be exploited through international trade?

    Me thinks that your subjective views are clouding your professional judgement.

  11. thefrolickingmole

    But have you made the case that the benefit of the “increase in the size of the market” flows to those already resident in the country?

    Appealing to GDP is meaningless if we have been kept out of recession by importing consumers.
    Appealing to skilled migration is irrelevant to residents who will see business grab an “import” rather than open up an apprenticeship position.
    Appealing to diversity wears thin when there is the appearance of overstretched infrastructure (hospitals etc) and we are told its not a problem to import a few hundred thousand more.

    It can be summed up.
    How has migration improved MY life, not the abstract of “bigger markets”.

  12. Judith

    See also Wolfgang Kasper’s important work about the essential role that cultural integration plays in terms of any economic benefits emerging. We score very badly in terms of cultural integration in terms of recent migrant flows.

  13. Judith

    And by the way, Scott Morrison has clearly lied by saying that a cut to the migrant intake wasn’t contemplated when TA was PM. It clearly was and Morrison should probably now resign.

  14. Judith

    Sinc – International trade and immigration are not substitutes, they are compliments. This is just your assertion. International trade is many instances is a substitute for migration, particularly given developments in trade in services.

    We can trade rather than move people.

  15. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

    “most” but some not so inclined. some are inclined to turn our country into the shitholes they came from.

  16. Roger

    Robots are the new “skilled immigrants”, fvck the reffos.

    Highly skilled migrant working in financial sector made redundant by robots featured on ABC recently.

    Our migration policy is redundant, too.

  17. Leegal

    Sinc, any chance you could back up the claim that migrants don’t buy houses? My partner is Irish and most of his mates (also migrants) own property here. Also, when I go to auctions, there seems to be a lot of Chinese…perhaps immigrants, perhaps not. My experience may not be statistically significant, but I’m yet to see anyone give facts on the matter that ‘migrants can’t afford houses’.

    Ta

  18. Sinclair Davidson

    See also Wolfgang Kasper’s important work about the essential role that cultural integration plays in terms of any economic benefits emerging.

    I tested Wolfgang’s theory here.

  19. From a post by Zulu on the Monday Forum:
    Iranian refugee couple who came to Australia by boat ‘busted flooding the streets of Sydney with ice’ – as police seize 36 kilograms of the deadly drug, $260,000 cash and three luxury cars
    That’s what I’m talking about Willis.

  20. Roger

    “As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.”

    We’re not taking in the poor, huddled masses, mate.

  21. Sinclair Davidson

    Sinc, any chance you could back up the claim that migrants don’t buy houses?

    Try be honest. This is what I wrote:

    As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.

  22. A Lurker

    Populism is being mainstreamed in Australia. At a book launch former prime minister Tony Abbott set out an aggressive populist agenda for Australia – presumably a second Abbott government. Abolish the renewable energy target, abolish the Human Rights Commission, cut spending, reform the Senate, and cut immigration.

    Sounds good to me.

    This from a man who couldn’t amend a single section of the Racial Discrimination Act while PM. A man who increased taxes. A man whose government set the current renewable energy target. Good luck with that.

    Very hard to achieve all of the above when so many in your party and coalition are Termites intent on wrecking the joint and undermining you every step of the way.

    Would Abbott be successful a second time around?
    Possibly – but he’d first need a massive can of insecticide to eliminate all the Termites embedded within his Government.

  23. Tim Neilson

    Arguments in favour of immigration usually emphasise diversity, food choice, and the like. These arguments are true, but trivial. The benefit of immigration comes from the fact that immigrants increase the size of the market.

    Try telling the residents of Melbourne’s outer west and north west about the “benefits” of “diversity”.

    Immigrants don’t just increase demand for Australian goods and services, they also increase the supply of Australian goods and services. This is especially so given the fact that Australia’s immigrant intake is skewed towards skilled migrants. People who are likely to quickly gain employment, start paying taxes, and making other contributions to Australian life.

    Fine, keep importing them and stop importing unskilled illiterate non English speaking parasites, grievance mongers and sociopaths. We could easily halve the immigration intake that way.

  24. Peter Campion

    Populism is being mainstreamed in Australia. At a book launch former prime minister Tony Abbott set out an aggressive populist agenda for Australia – presumably a second Abbott government. Abolish the renewable energy target, abolish the Human Rights Commission, cut spending, reform the Senate, and cut immigration.

    We could possibly increase our home-grown population if we followed this “aggressive populist agenda” (FFS), lowered taxes and made stay-home mothering a viable option.

  25. Leegal

    Try be honest. This is what I wrote:

    As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.

    Apologies, I see variants of the above fairly frequently. Honestly, just wanting to know how true it is. Upon arrival means maybe 5 years later? Eventually they become a player, but to what affect?

  26. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    This is especially so given the fact that Australia’s immigrant intake is skewed towards skilled migrants.

    This so called economic aim is nothing more than a spurious attempt at plastering over our below replacement birth rate since the 70s and skewing the voting patterns of an ageing ie increasingly conservative population towards the welfare state big government parasitism that the left is so enamoured with.

    on both fronts what we are talking about is nothing short of treason.

    replacing 10% of the population every decade is a recipe for long term disaster

  27. Immigrant robots are the new zombies!

  28. A Lurker

    Arguments in favour of immigration usually emphasise diversity, food choice, and the like. These arguments are true, but trivial. The benefit of immigration comes from the fact that immigrants increase the size of the market.

    In particular the higher education market?

    As for diversity?I wonder if Melbourne is relishing its diversity of criminal gang culture imported from various overseas s-holes…

  29. egg_

    Highly skilled migrant working in financial sector made redundant by robots featured on ABC recently.

    Yup, software is anticipated to take up to 70% of white collar Financial jerbs, which a lot of immigrants take up.
    Robot Maccas assistants and baristas on the way.

  30. H B Bear

    Me thinks that your subjective views are clouding your professional judgement.

    Dr Bear agrees with your diagnosis. Sadly another case of Abbott Derangement Syndrome. There is a lot of it about.

  31. Marcus

    As if most new migrants to Australia could afford to buy a house upon arrival.

    The ironic thing about the immigrant/house price debate is that immigrants who can arrive here and afford Melbourne prices are probably precisely the kinds of immigrants we should be encouraging in the first place.

  32. egg_

    Arguments in favour of immigration usually emphasise diversity, food choice, and the like. These arguments are true, but trivial. The benefit of immigration comes from the fact that immigrants increase the size of the market.

    In particular the higher education market?

    The jerb Visa racket?

  33. Sinclair Davidson

    Honestly, just wanting to know how true it is.

    I would imagine most new migrants would rent for a period of time. To the extent that Australia runs an overwhelmingly skilled migration program and in the fullness of time that migrants would buy homes in Australia. I imagine that your Irish friends would have found it easier to buy home in Australia prior to the GFC if they had sold up in Ireland and come here. The Euro is stronger than the dollar and property prices were, in average, higher.

  34. Fisky

    A restriction on immigration is a restriction on economic prosperity – much like increased taxation.

    This must explain why Japan’s GDP/capita has grown about 50% faster than ours over the past decade.

  35. Sirocco

    Judith
    #2646261, posted on February 26, 2018 at 10:24 am

    We can trade rather than move people.

    Exactly. I might be happy to trade with anyone, but why would I invite them to live next door to me?

  36. egg_

    At a book launch former prime minister Tony Abbott set out an aggressive… agenda for Australia – presumably a second Abbott government

    Woohoo!
    Whiteanting the whiteants?
    How ironic.

  37. Eddystone

    Uh-oh.

    On the other hand, there is this rant from Professor Sinclair Davidson which falls far, far short of the rationality I once expected from him:

    At a book launch former prime minister Tony Abbott set out an aggressive populist agenda for Australia …

    More concerning, however, is the increased antagonism towards immigration. To be sure, there is much to dislike about immigrants… They take our jobs, live in our houses, marry our women, deprive our children of jobs, and speak with strange accents. Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

    Now Tony Abbott wasn’t as crude as that…

    Actually, Abbott – an immigrant himself – said nothing at all like that. Davidson set up the crudest of straw men to lazily dismiss critics of our absurdly high immigration intake as mere racists or fools. It is telling that in his article there is not a line of evidence to support his feel-good claims that this very high intake is good for us.

  38. Fisky

    Sorry, I read the article, but I couldn’t actually find any evidence that Australia’s living standards would fall if immigration were lower than 190,000 per year, let alone any evidence that GDP/capita would rise if immigration increased.

    This is a very big problem, but it is quite normal for most libertarian op-eds – very light on actual evidence.

  39. egg_

    This must explain why Japan’s GDP/capita has grown about 50% faster than ours over the past decade.

    From previous – the model to study – and they love robots.

  40. DrBeauGan

    International trade and immigration are not substitutes, they are compliments.

    I think you mean complements Sinc. And as others have pointed out, the assumption that any immigrant is equivalent to any other and that all cultures are equal is dubious.

    I like variety and am prepared to tolerate and indeed learn from a fair amount of cultural diversity, but there are definite limits to this. I am not happy to watch the Western intellectual tradition go down the gurgler and be replaced by a repulsive ideology, and I see it happening every day.

  41. RobertS

    Blah, blah blah.
    Government doesn’t want to cut immigration significantly because it will put us into recession.
    Simple as that.

  42. Turtle of WA

    It’s on. The Bolta Vs. The Doomlord.

  43. Sinclair Davidson

    I wonder if Melbourne is relishing its diversity of criminal gang culture imported from various overseas s-holes…

    Delcon Dutton is the responsible minister – why aren’t these criminals being deported?

  44. Chris

    Nicely argued article and pitched to sell, but the moose your are pretending is not on the table, is that immigration is not homogeneous and the positives and negatives are very unequally shared.

    The higher education sector is in some ways a predator on western society. Talk to a few Uber drivers and its clear they are selling immigration access to fund their salaries, just as they loot grad students lives and undergrads future earnings to fund buildings and salaries for staff.

    The public sector is now also a predator on western society.

    As for the media…

    These sectors continually re-calibrate our values to validate paying them respect, salaries and budgets. The values started from civilised western liberalism and the tension with conservatism but are now hypertrophic like woolly mammoth tusks, and like them are used to crush.

  45. Chris

    they= academic sector, not uberologists.

  46. Mother Lode

    Given what we now know the Liberal party to be – bursting at the seams with spivs and progs – does anyone believe Abbott could have had legislation reforming the RDA through? Considering it was how own party that scuppered it.

  47. Senile Old Guy

    Let’s have a look at the conclusions of that paper by Sinc, et al.

    Our analysis suggests that migrants, on average, will have little difficulty settling into the economy, and the Australian market place. In this sense, they impose low economic transactions costs. On the other hand, migrants, on average, may have some difficulty settling into Australian political and civil society. In that sense, they may well impose high transactions costs on society.

    So “low economic transactions”, no “no economic transactions”. And, it is important to note, that the paper contains no economic data, so this conclusion is inferred.

    But “they may well impose high transactions costs”, which is exactly what some (many?) are saying: a position highlighted by recent violent transactions in major cities on the east coast.

    Why “impose high transactions costs” for the sake, also, of “low economic transactions”?

  48. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Actually, Abbott – an immigrant himself – said nothing at all like that. Davidson set up the crudest of straw men to lazily dismiss critics of our absurdly high immigration intake as mere racists or fools.

    Racism is the natural order of man. People prefer their own kind. Nobody wants to be a minority in their own countries, which is precisely where we are headed. Even migrants gravitate towards the same suburbs where they eventually become the majority.

    One of the grandkids first day at a public school, she was one of two white girls in the whole class. Her mother freaked out by the number of burqa clad parents. She was moved to a catholic school and now there is a single white girl in that class. But think of the future economic benefits that girl will enjoy from her fellow yellow, brown and black classmates.

  49. A Lurker

    Delcon Dutton is the responsible minister – why aren’t these criminals being deported?

    Good question, however you might want to redirect your query to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal

  50. Senile Old Guy

    Also, Sinc’s paper was in 2007, with data up to 2005-06, so is possibly not current.

  51. H B Bear

    Delcon Dutton is the responsible minister – why aren’t these criminals being deported?

    Well a fair few of them have been born in Australia to refugee immigrant parents, many will be “Australian citizens” and numerous attempts to deport non-citizens have been overturned by the AAT following appeal by the Immigration Industry (a subsidiary of the Ambulance Chasing & Union Abetting Industry). So there’s that.

  52. Turtle of WA

    What’s populist about wanting a (relative to trend) lower population? “Populism” should be the name given to vote importers.

  53. Fisky

    Delcon Dutton is the responsible minister – why aren’t these criminals being deported?

    Because they are Australian citizens who were imported to the applause of most libertarians.

  54. Confused Old Misfit

    A very important sentence or two:

    On the other hand, migrants, on average, may have some diffi culty settling into Australian political and civil society. In that sense, they may well impose high transactions costs on society.

    The disquiet that is evident in all but the gross small “l” liberal community, the anti-immigrant push back if you will, that we deplorable, mouth breathing, knuckle dragging red necks are expressing is one of those transaction costs.
    I would rephrase that semi paragraph as follows:

    On the other hand, some migrants, have great difficulty settling into Australian political and civil society. They are imposing high transactions costs on society.

    The solutions offered are of the most gentle nature imaginable. Basically what one used to call History & Civic class. When I immigrated from Canuckstan in ’81 one’s entire family had to present at the High Commission in Ottawa for an interview. We had been advised that we would be questioned on our knowledge of Australian history, government and social milliue. The advice was taken and the local library and NFB offices consulted. We passed.
    That probably still applies for immigrants going through the normal procedures. But the push back is being fueled by those who are brought in on a humanitarian basis where there appears to be little or no attention paid to their cultural adaptability.

  55. Sinclair Davidson

    Because they are Australian citizens ….

    Whahahahahahahahahaha.

  56. RobK

    The problem that concerns me most is the change from pro-development governments 40-50 years ago to a mind set of high density housing, high cost energy, retrograde agricultural policy (eg buy back of station country etc), anti-manufacturing legislation, city centric mentality.
    To some extent this is “un-australian” in the old sense of the concept. It’s not just the migrants at fault; there’s somewhat of a cultural change occuring amongst Aussies as well. Over all our country is still underdeveloped in my view but there is increased inertia against development other than high density suburbia. There is no economic diversity any more. We are becoming a nation of retailers.

  57. areff

    You really shouldn’t double down on a dill, Doomlord, and a duplicitous dill at that.

  58. To be sure, there is much to dislike about immigrants… They take our jobs, live in our houses, marry our women, deprive our children of jobs, and speak with strange accents. Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

    Sinclair knows many Cats favour a reduction in immigration and a more targeted intake. Yet…yet he sneers at us as if we were knuckle dragging ignorant borderline racists who fear our women being taken.

    Fuck you Sinc and fuck your strawman argument and fuck your evidence free article.

  59. Sinclair Davidson

    Gee Baa Humbug tell us what you really think. And here is me, always speaking highly of you.

  60. Tim Neilson

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2646331, posted on February 26, 2018 at 11:06 am
    Because they are Australian citizens ….

    Whahahahahahahahahaha.

    Fine, Sinc.

    So now tell us that there is a net benefit to our society by importing more of them.

    Or admit that we could achieve a net benefit by reducing the immigration intake so as not to import any more of them.

  61. Confused Old Misfit

    There is no economic diversity any more. We are becoming a nation of retailers.

    Blame the bloody political economists for that. They decided that, because of “comparative/competitive advantage” nonsense Australia didn’t need any manufacturing industries. All that could be much better and cheaper done by the little yellow fellow to the north.

  62. Fisky

    lol –

    Accepting more refugees and boat people into the country is one of the greatest contributions Australia can make to improving the world around us and enhancing our own living standards, writes Sinclair Davidson.

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2009/10/30/enough-of-the-hysteria-refugees-are-good-for-us/

  63. Anto

    So, Sinc – what you’re saying is that 300K p.a. is good, 600K p.a. would be twice as good and 900K p.a. would be…etc?

  64. egg_

    The problem that concerns me most is the change from pro-development governments 40-50 years ago to a mind set of high density housing, high cost energy, retrograde agricultural policy (eg buy back of station country etc), anti-manufacturing legislation, city centric mentality.
    To some extent this is “un-australian” in the old sense of the concept. It’s not just the migrants at fault; there’s somewhat of a cultural change occuring amongst Aussies as well. Over all our country is still underdeveloped in my view but there is increased inertia against development other than high density suburbia. There is no economic diversity any more. We are becoming a nation of retailers.

    Inner suburbs Greens complaining of high rise full of reffos, who don’t like to commute from the ‘burbs.

  65. Sinclair Davidson

    Tim – nobody sensible or intelligent has ever accused me of being soft on law and order. If people are commiting crimes, call the police. If migrants are commiting crimes, deport them.

  66. Sinclair Davidson

    So, Sinc – what you’re saying is that 300K p.a. is good, 600K p.a. would be twice as good and 900K p.a. would be…etc?

    I would adopt a bottom up approach, not a top-down target. So as many as the private sector will employ.

  67. DavidA

    Economists will never provide a number indicative of how much your daily grind sucks. But we all know it.

  68. If Abbott truly believes that housing starts are lagging population growth he should focus his attention on supply side barriers to entry and not on restricting the demand side of the economy. That means lowering taxation, cutting red tape, cutting green tape, and forcing the states to do so, too.

    Has the good professor ever heard of the saying “don’t put the horse before the cart”?
    Changes to infrastructure planning and the actual building of infrastructure take a long time. In the mean time people are coming in historically large numbers.
    A change to the immigration intake can be done almost instantaneously. ONCE THE FLOWS ARE SLOWED DOWN, ATTEMPTS CAN BE MADE TO IMPROVE INFRASTRUCTURE.
    This is what Abbott was getting at.

  69. Sinclair Davidson

    … but wait, Fisky, there is more.

  70. egg_

    To be sure, there is much to dislike about immigrants… They take our jobs, live in our houses, marry our women, deprive our children of jobs, and speak with strange accents. Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

    The rich irony if a change in US policy infiltrated Australia with academics from the subcontinent who ended up running institutions as if they were their own little cartels as they do in some other industries.

  71. Sinclair Davidson
    #2646340, posted on February 26, 2018 at 11:15 am

    Gee Baa Humbug tell us what you really think. And here is me, always speaking highly of you.

    At least I’m open and upfront about what I’m thinking and saying.
    You on the other hand were underhanded and veiled in your accusation of us racist bigots eh mate?

  72. Tezza

    The problem with re-posting a year-old general essay is that it obviously does not address the specifics of Abbott’s thoughtful presentation last week.

    To try to position Abbott’s speech as a populist error by a politician you clearly detest, destroys your credibility right off the bat. The speech was a thoughtful, measured, temperate, Liberal-oriented statement of a timely moderation of immigration volumes and improved selectivity. It was offered as something the Turnbull Government could do immediately without Senate frustration, and consistent with the desirability of getting every state, territory and local government in Australia to make the desirable supply-side deregulation you identify. (One needs merely to state the pervasiveness of those necessary reforms to see why they won’t happen any time soon, in the age of NIMBYs. the prospect of Turnbull leading any such reforms is a poor joke.)
    Abbott suggested a sensible move to both improve policy and sharpen policy differences with the insane policies of the green-left. So of course Turnbull’s key ministers attack him, and the open borders crowd have gone berserk.
    I don’t like the company you’re keeping on this one, Sinc.

  73. egg_

    What is the cause of the behaviour of the African gangs in Melbourne?

  74. Tim Neilson

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2646348, posted on February 26, 2018 at 11:21 am

    If migrants are commiting crimes, deport them.

    We’d get all the benefits of deportation, with none of the costs and detriments, by not bringing them here in the first place.

  75. Titch

    If you want diversity, food choices, get a recipe from the internet. We don’t need to bring in people from dozens of different countries to expand our personal appetites. With international trade, the less well known food ingredients are all available here. When spaghetti bolognese was new and different to the average Australian, the world was a vastly different place to now. Same applies to SBS, it has been overtaken by the internet and modern communications, and is no longer needed, full stop.

  76. thefrolickingmole

    Sinclair Davidson

    Lets say Im one of the bottom 50% of the population in education/wealth etc.
    What personal benefit do i see from mass migration?

    Not hypothetical, no “if the government built stuff properly” (because they have proven themselves unable to do so).

    Also it is apparently bad for our own young to be trained in any of the following areas, we must remove the necessity of training our own by importing others.

    http://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/work/work/skills-assessment-and-assessing-authorities/skilled-occupations-lists/combined-stsol-mltssl

    If I have a kid looking for an apprenticeship/further training, should i be happy that trades level qualifications can be imported?

  77. Wayneofperth

    So immigration especially the ‘skilled category’ is beneficial but where is the cutoff point? Is it a Melbourne every ten years or so or is it two or more?

    A Russian joke from the USSR days I read recently comes to mind about Economists being able to inflict more damage on a country than their military.

  78. Rob MW

    This from a man who couldn’t amend a single section of the Racial Discrimination Act while PM.

    A tad disingenuous maybe considering that promises made during an erection are made under the assumption that control of the Senate will follow control of the House.

  79. sfw

    Funny how pro migration people seem to forget the law of supply and demand, bringing in a multitude of low skilled people will reduce the pay and opportunities for the low skilled citizens, somehow the wealthy pro migration types just wish that away. I guess that they are the ones who benefit through cheap lawn mowing, car washing etc while the poor bastards who were born here see their opportunities dry up and what jobs they can get pay less than they otherwise would.

    If you want to create the conditions for an Australian Trump (I think that would on balance be a good thing) just keep importing low age slaves and religious murderers and other diversity enhancements and see how you go.

  80. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    What is the cause of the behaviour of the African gangs in Melbourne?

    undomesticated sub-species of homo sapien.

  81. RobK

    Over all I think Abbott’s recipe as outlined is better than any currently on the boil.

  82. Stimpson J. Cat

    Most immigrants have the temerity to integrate into Australian society and come to think of themselves as being Australian!

    There is more chance of an immigrant integrating and becoming useful than a Libertarian.

  83. jupes

    Why does Sinc live in Australia?

    Could it be he didn’t like the black majority culture of South Africa?

  84. Stimpson J. Cat

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative. They must be hard-working, having had to raise the money to pay their fare. In other words, they are the kind of people we should want to migrate to Australia. Many are found to be genuine asylum seekers and are welcomed into the community, but only after having had their will and spirit broken by mandatory detention and offshore processing. You’ve got to wonder if that is the best use of their human capital.

    A-ha ha ha ha ha ha ja!

  85. Entropy

    I would adopt a bottom up approach, not a top-down target. So as many as the private sector will employ.

    That sounds the most sensible thing you have said on this matter.
    Now, the nuts and bolts. How does this noble policy aim actually work? Because that isnt how immigration would ever operate in this or any other country.
    Just how do you stop a government from wanting to “do something” or integrate immigration with other “initiatives” that have little to do with the stated aim, or are ultimately antithetical to it? How would you keep the politics out of it?

  86. Entropy

    I am curious, if you are not a youngish chap from the subcontinent originally arriving in this country on a student visa, would you have much chance of getting a job in the taxi industry? Most of them know their way around and fun to talk to in cricket season. However.
    Because just on casual observation the taxi drivers of today do not appear to represent the wonderful multicultural diversity required of our workplace laws. How is it so?
    Is this something the AHRC is about to open an investigation on?

  87. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    If I have a kid looking for an apprenticeship/further training, should i be happy that trades level qualifications can be imported?

    It’s not just trades, skilled people are competing against hordes of iranian, punjabi, pakistani, cantonese and other imports. Advertise for any technical skilled position and wade through the countless resumes from the above. “skilled” is a nice euphemism for mostly mediocre who just happen to be in a technical field. A lot of these will accept anything that is offered to them. English is often barely comprehensible.

    But hey can’t imagine why wages are stagnating with all these gdp enhancements arriving to rescue us from our virility deprived culture.

  88. Neil

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-08/davidson-insulated-australia-needs-to-open-its-doors/2876628

    The fear that Australia would somehow be over-run by asylum seekers if we were to process applications onshore is simply false. First we need to remember that we have an open-borders agreement with New Zealand and we haven’t been overrun by Kiwis. Second, the long, expensive and arduous boat trip is itself a barrier to entry.

    Not true. We got 4,000 boat people in July 2013. Labor had completely lost control of our borders. 4.000/month is approx 50,000/year. And boat people were rapidly increasing until Abbott stopped the boats

  89. candy

    Well I think our multicultural society is great. We otherwise would be an inward looking boring lot.
    But maybe it is time to re-evaluate the numbers.
    Not enough public housing for disadvataged and I imagine this includes new migrants struggling, more people in high private rent, never able to buy.
    It is a bit of a mess.

  90. Cynic of Ayr

    Jesus Sinclair! You’re making it hard to take you seriously in anything, when you post this drivel!

  91. egg_

    Entropy
    #2646393, posted on February 26, 2018 at 11:57 am

    There are IT fiefdoms as well.

  92. A question for the non bigoted, non racist kind hearted professor.

    If…taking large numbers of immigrants who are the brightest and the best is good for the economy, then what effect does losing the brightest and the best have on the shit-holes they come from?
    Surely these shit-holes don’t have an over supply of the brightest and the best (or else they wouldn’t be shit-holes eh?).

    Throughout history, the brightest and the best were forced out (or exterminated) from countries that very soon after became shit-holes and took generations to recover even after the tyrants who pushed them out were toppled (Thomas Sowell has written much about this).

    Yet today, we are pulling the brightest and the best from other countries. Millions each year are migrating to Oz, Canada, USA, NZ, GB and Europe.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1139176.Migrations_and_Cultures

  93. Senile Old Guy

    Tim – nobody sensible or intelligent has ever accused me of being soft on law and order. If people are commiting crimes, call the police. If migrants are commiting crimes, deport them.

    But this does not happen, and that is part of the problem.

    Dutton has tried to deport people but some of the potential deportees have no country that will accept them and various (mostly) left wing types do everything in their power to derail the deportations.

    Deportation is a difficult, and usually unsuccessful, option.

    As for the police…the courts routinely find mitigating circumstances and release the criminals, either on bail or with a suspended sentence. How many of those committing terrorist and criminal acts in Australia were on bail at the time? More than a few.

    So the police option fails because of the courts (pressured by lobby groups).

    In the end, both options cost time and money for people who, in most cases, should not be here.

  94. struth

    I am fairly angry.
    Too angry to read everyone else’s comments.

    What pompous dribble.
    What pure arrogance in the first line.

    Populism is being mainstreamed………………………..
    Good lord.

    In other words the great unwashed have a different opinion than self important experts who know better.
    Bloody academics.

    Popular is what all politicians should try to be.
    It’s called doing the will of the people, something our betters call populism.

    Disgusting.

    I have watched you go progressively more left wing with every year you spend in Australian universities.

    If your theories are correct, all Venezuela has to do is import a shit load of people like we do and their problems will be solved.
    A big population like China wasn’t doing too well (and millions still don’t have a dunny to shit in) because of their politics.

    Ramping up immigration into welfare ridden shithole socialist states with no private sector activity and many Australians under employed or in the public service in too large a number, is purely insane.

    And this from an economist.
    I shouldn’t be surprised really.
    This logic of immigration increases the market is pure bunkum.
    That’s because wherever they are in the world already living and breathing, they are a market.
    Coming here to socialism and going on welfare or into public sector jobs increases the market how, Oh genius?
    Shall we dig holes and fill them in?

    Until Australia fixes up it’s over regulation of industry, housing and bloody well everything, it’s U.N. assaults on power production and gets it’s industrial relations and it’s tax on business and incentivises, you can bring all the people you want into here and just like Venezuela, it won’t solve a thing.
    It will make matters worse.
    Here is an economist wanting a nineteenth century gold rush while the government has outlawed looking for gold and digging it up.
    So all the diggers put their shovels down and go on the dole or get employed by the government digging holes and filling them in again, or helping to create more private sector killing regulation.

    But all up I am very upset with this arrogance about “populism” from our own Sinclair.

    But please, don’t try and dissect what I say, just answer one thing.

    Would your theory work for Venezuela right now?
    Because if it does, we should, as good global citizens, let them have our immigrants as they are further down the socialist toilet and a hundred thousand new mouths to feed will bring their economy bouncing back!

  95. Leo G

    A restriction on immigration is a restriction on economic prosperity – much like increased taxation.

    Unlimited immigration, unlimited economic prosperity?
    Surely, there’s a limit to that linkage.

  96. Sinclair Davidson

    Surely these shit-holes don’t have an over supply of the brightest and the best (or else they wouldn’t be shit-holes eh?).

    You are confusing absolute and relative supply. In an absolute sense Australia etc. have a huge supply of talented and smart people. These so-called shit-holes have an absolute undersupply. Relative to opportunity, however, Australia etc. have a shortage of talented and smart people, while the so-called shitholes have a relative over-supply. That is why talented and smart people earn more in Australia etc. than they do in so-called shitholes.

  97. Stimpson J. Cat

    If…taking large numbers of immigrants who are the brightest and the best is good for the economy, then what effect does losing the brightest and the best have on the shit-holes they come from?
    Surely these shit-holes don’t have an over supply of the brightest and the best (or else they wouldn’t be shit-holes eh?).

    Agreed.
    Just imagine how wonderful South Africa could be if it still had White people.

  98. struth

    Australia etc. have a shortage of talented and smart people

    You can say that again.

  99. RobK

     That is why talented and smart people earn more in Australia etc. than they do in so-called shitholes.

    What are the figures of our very best fleeing to overseas opportunities. As I understand it many of our best academics and entrepreneurs seek greener pastures after soaking up a good education. Many are stymied by the lack of economic horsepower available here. I have no idea of the numbers. Certainly some cross polination is a good thing, dont get me wrong.

  100. Tim Neilson

    Unlimited immigration, unlimited economic prosperity?
    Surely, there’s a limit to that linkage.

    Precisely.

    And if there is a limit, what’s the evidence that the limit, in Australia’s current circumstances, isn’t below 190,000 per year?

  101. H B Bear

    The Theory of Comparative Advantage of Reffos, haven’t come across that one before. I guess it makes sense if you do not distinguish between a 48″ Chinese TV and a Chinaman.

  102. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    This notion of the non-racist ubermensch is a communist invention, he in an outlier amongst outliers. It is disgusting that preferring your own people has become an insult. That is nothing but buying into the communist world view. This comes from the same people who tell you that not using someone’s prefered pronoun is a form of violence. It seems everybody’s preferences are to be kowtowed to, expect normal breeding white people.

    The same for patriotism, populism and everything else the internationalist socialist elite try to foist on us.

  103. indigo

    Populist agenda? Does this mean it’s what the voters want? Elites pan populism because they think they are smarter and know best – just like Hollywood actors.

  104. Sinclair Davidson

    What are the figures of our very best fleeing to overseas opportunities.

    Some come, some go. Individuals pursue their own self-interest. Strange notion I understand. It’s called free markets.

  105. Dr Faustus

    Immigrants don’t just increase demand for Australian goods and services, they also increase the supply of Australian goods and services.

    This statement is true of itself – providing the immigrant cohort is net productive on the supply side.
    Simply ‘contributing’ to growth in GDP by increasing demand through immigration numbers is not sustainable policy – otherwise the world would be competing for hungry mouths.

    Unfortunately, productivity is an elusive commodity, a human spirit that largely escapes policy generalisation by the statist beasts we elect to rule us. By most measures it has been in decline since around 2007; not, I suspect, because of immigrant hoards.

  106. Gary

    Its common among white ex-pats to over compensate because of the history. But could also be Sinc longing for the good old days of watching eight people cut his grass.

  107. Viva

    I am so not interested in what Abbott did or did not do in that other country which is the past. I am interested that he is the only pol today putting Australia First.

    IMO Sinclair’s thoughts on immigration faithfully reflect the policy elite’s focus on apparently rosy macro outcomes and rising graphs in the wake of full on free trade agreements and high immigration which hide the micro individual losses of joblessness, flat wages etc. Trump recognised this reality hidden behind this rampant drive onwards and upwards in which often the rich get richer and the devil take the hindmost. No this is not an argument for populist politics of envy but a plea on behalf of those being crushed under the globalist chariot wheels leading to ever higher energy prices, flat wages, unemployment, stresses around infrastructure etc.

    If putting Australia first is deemed populist so be it.

  108. Dictionary:

    populism – anything that clashes with the agenda of the left

  109. Roger

    Immigrants don’t just increase demand for Australian goods and services, they also increase the supply of Australian goods and services.

    They certainly increase the demand for government services – hospitals, schools, roads, public transport & of course the services of the income redistribution/middle class tax churn specialist bureaucrats at Human Services (money turns up in migrant’s accounts shortly after arrival, according to Lucy Gichuhi). A recent state by state study in the US (can’t put my finger on at present) found immigration was a net cost to the American economy primarily due to the demand immigrants placed on government services. We have a broader government services sector than the US; it would be worthwhile for an Australian economist to conduct a similar study.

  110. Stimpson J. Cat

    Individuals pursue their own self-interest.

    Oh I agree.
    And when a group of individuals decide immigration should be cut due to self-interest, well, we call that populism.

  111. Neil

    If…taking large numbers of immigrants who are the brightest and the best is good for the economy, then what effect does losing the brightest and the best have on the shit-holes they come from?

    And what effect does it have with people of average ability like myself?

    I was a research scientist. Two years before i lost my job i went to the upstairs lab to do some work and there were 5 Russians yapping away in Russian. The following day i turned up for our fortnightly group meeting chaired by 2 academics with 10 researchers in the room. I looked around and of those 10 people i was the only one born in Australia. The following week i went to the downstairs lab and there were 7 Russians yapping away in Russian. After that i gave up.

    Research is the first profession with no borders. Most Eastern Europeans are here for one reason. Money. They do not get paid a living wage in science back home. Plus they are willing to work for half wages. Illegal you may say? Well not in science. It is all contract work. They write a contract so you can legally work in the lab and then pay you want they can. Half wages in Australia is still better than full wages in Eastern Europe. One of the Russians i worked with was working for nothing. How can U compete against that?

  112. Zatara

    The benefit of immigration comes from the fact that immigrants increase the size of the market.

    If only there were some way to move goods to the market rather than the market to the goods.

  113. The disconnect between OP authors and commenters on this site is off the charts. Except when Kates posts. Funny, that.

  114. RobK

    Some come, some go.
    I’m all for free markets, especially when you can measure the competition and success of policy, which is really what this discussion is about.
    Surely a free market is one where policy settings allow maximum economic output per individual. To do this a jurisdiction should try to provide as rich and fertile economic environment as possible. The red and green tape Abbott refers to has to go first before the pie can grow. Straining infrastructure with human capital is not a good starting point.

  115. Stimpson J. Cat

    The disconnect between OP authors and commenters on this site is off the charts. Except when Kates posts. Funny, that.

    Difference of opinion is healthy Monty.
    Don’t be a Nazi.

  116. egg_

    One man’s rake is another’s black eye.

  117. struth

    You beat me to it, Stimpson.

    It’s unlike the lefty sites where everyone finds out what they’re supposed to say and just regurgitates.

  118. Rohan

    I’m waiting excitedly for the next instalment of how wonderful a PM ol’ Mal will turn out to be.
    #potentialgreatnessanydaynow

  119. Roger

    You beat me to it, Stimpson.

    Ditto.

    How’s the forehead, monty?

  120. Kneel

    “What is the cause of the behaviour of the African gangs in Melbourne?”

    Obviously, it is all the racist red-neck scum making that lot feel unwelcome.
    Clearly, we need to edumacate the red-neck, uneducated, racist skippies.
    Without doubt, the existing residents are the ones that need deporting – after all, they are probably “deplorable” TA supporters, right?
    And as we know, deplorables aren’t even allowed to speak in public – just ask antifa, blm et al.
    I say – fuck ’em!
    100k p.a. max. No govt support for 5 years – not even medicare. No citizenship possible until you have at least 7 years of no criminal convictions and at least 7 years of paying tax. Refugees are only accepted if they come direct from where they are being “persecuted”. Return to that place in first 7 years, start over again, including applying for refugee status.
    And if the UN or others don’t like it, I don’t care – want to concern yourself with the affairs of other countries, you can start with the genocide of christian peoples in the Middle East and Africa.

  121. struth

    I say – fuck ’em!
    100k p.a. max. No govt support for 5 years – not even medicare. No citizenship possible until you have at least 7 years of no criminal convictions and at least 7 years of paying tax. Refugees are only accepted if they come direct from where they are being “persecuted”. Return to that place in first 7 years, start over again, including applying for refugee status.
    And if the UN or others don’t like it, I don’t care – want to concern yourself with the affairs of other countries, you can start with the genocide of christian peoples in the Middle East and Africa.

    I think I’m in love.

  122. Fisky

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative. They must be hard-working, having had to raise the money to pay their fare. In other words, they are the kind of people we should want to migrate to Australia. Many are found to be genuine asylum seekers and are welcomed into the community, but only after having had their will and spirit broken by mandatory detention and offshore processing. You’ve got to wonder if that is the best use of their human capital.

    Oh dear. That has not aged well at all.

  123. Fisky

    I think it’s time we just reached the conclusion that the libertarian movement is an offshoot of Leftism and nothing more than that. Libertarians overwhelmingly supported Angela Merkel’s importation of 1.5 million Muslim welfare shoppers, which is surprising for a “small government” movement. But not surprising when you realise that “libertarians” by and large favour a larger state.

  124. egg_

    You’ve got to wonder if that is the best use of their human capital.

    Au pairs for the Greens would be fitting – that or interment – their choice.

  125. TP

    Morrison & Davidson like immigration because it helps grow our GDP. This is based on the fact that they “buy things”. The main flaw in this argument is that the Taxpayer pays when they “buy things”. Most immigrants are unemployable, won’t get a job or just love handouts. Add to the cost of helping them ‘buy things” the Taxpayer foots the bill for housing , educational & medical costs amongst many others. Way to go !!!

  126. Leo G

    And if there is a limit, what’s the evidence that the limit, in Australia’s current circumstances, isn’t below 190,000 per year?

    Apparently the present Australian government believes that if there is a limit, it must be well above 190,000 per year.
    Tony Abbott’s view is that Net Overseas Migration which averaged 110,000 a year in the decade to mid-2006 has since doubled to 220,000 a year – peaking at over 300,000 under PM Rudd, that these are the highest figures in our history, there is widespread evidence of associated harm to the country’s citizenry, and the appropriate government policy response should be to return to the old long-term average of 110,000 a year.
    Sinclair believes that Abbott’s political view is now antiestablishment, anti-intellectual, and his policy solution is unorthodox, is designed only to appeal to the common person and is out-of-step with traditional party ideologies.
    Abbott’s must be some kind of traditional neo-populism.

  127. Roger

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative.

    The Iranian couple arrested in Sydney for ICE distribution certainly were.

  128. Difference of opinion is healthy Monty.

    Sinc: Immigration is positive, economically and socially. Just look at me.
    Cats: Immigration is the debbil, burn it before they steal our wamens!

    Yep, plenty of healthy debate there.

  129. None

    Immigration is the lazy way to deal with lack of economic reform (Hello Ms Merkel, Mr Turnbull, Mr Shorten) and dropping fertility tates thanks to 60 years of lefty denigration of marriage and family. It incurs a cost that outstrips benefit if not managed right particularly in terms of social cohesion but also in terms of the simple fact that hoards of single Muslim males aren’t gonna wipe aging Aussie arse much less aging glbt arse. In a free market Australians will chose how much immigration they want to consume -this is our home and we have the right to chose who to invite here. But instead we have it imposed on us by fuckwits like Morro and Sinc.

  130. Fisky

    Immigration is really a big government program designed to effect wealth redistribution. A true free market would have approximately zero immigration. Businesses are free to hire robots if they can’t find workers at low wages. The worst thing that can happen is we grow our GDP/capita faster, like Japan and South Korea. Sounds like a good deal.

  131. None

    I think it’s time we just reached the conclusion that the libertarian movement is an offshoot of Leftism and nothing more than that. Libertarians overwhelmingly supported Angela Merkel’s importation of 1.5 million Muslim welfare shoppers, which is surprising for a “small government” movement. But not surprising when you realise that “libertarians” by and large favour a larger state.

    I have always held that ppinion. Libertarianism is incoherent, tends to authoritarianism (he with most power and corruption wins) and über hypocritical. Both Sinc and Leyonhelm for example, suck off the public purse.

  132. egg_

    Immigration is the lazy way to deal with lack of economic reform

    My thoughts exactly when one contrasts Japan.

  133. thefrolickingmole

    Cats: Immigration is the debbil, burn it before they steal our wamens!

    Only person bringing up the “steal our warmens’ is you man-dater.

    He cant even see when hes being groomed for his precious bodily fluids, let alone his self-arakening.

  134. struth

    We are not getting the best.
    What a load of shit.
    We are getting third world mussies and every culture that is not western as dictated by the Global socialist U.N.
    This they do not hide.
    It is not conspiracy theory.
    Just check out one bloke, the secretary general, who he is, and what he was doing in the U.N. prior to that.
    Immigration, FFS.

    We are literally being invaded and destroyed by global socialists and Sinclair wants more of it.

    He’s actually making the perfect case for Banning even white blokes from South Africa, if we’re going to get this sort of Rubbish, the many good ones just aren’t worth the risk.

  135. Roger

    Immigration is the lazy way to deal with lack of economic reform…and dropping fertility rates thanks to 60 years of lefty denigration of marriage and family.

    “Australia is a lucky country run mainly by second rate people who share its luck. It lives on other people’s ideas, and, although its ordinary people are adaptable, most of its leaders (in all fields) so lack curiosity about the events that surround them that they are often taken by surprise.” Donald Horne

  136. Stimpson J. Cat

    Yep, plenty of healthy debate there.

    Stick to critiquing steaks Monty.

  137. Roger

    Immigration + Multiculturalism = Colonisation.

  138. Stimpson J. Cat

    Sinc: Immigration is positive, economically and socially. Just look at me.
    Cats: Immigration is the debbil, burn it before they steal our wamens!

    Stimp:I married a genuine refugee wamen you fat lesbian.

  139. struth

    Cats: Immigration is the debbil, burn it before they steal our wamens!

    Just to point out another typical lefty Flaw.

    They don’t hear what you said, they hear what they want you to have said.

  140. H B Bear

    Horne’s quote should be inscribed in both chambers of the Australian parliament and recited before each session.

  141. DavidA

    Via @Brexit, Bloomberg Brexit
    “Britain’s wages are picking up as fewer workers from the eastern EU fill jobs”

    https://t.co/nwhMG1NP0V https://t.co/8my8GHRzp2

  142. RobK

    You’ve got to wonder if that is the best use of their human capital.
    The long delays in processing of “boat people”is a brutal thing and if an alternative were available that would encourage the use of proper channels that should be pursued. If I knew of one I’d suggest it, but i don’t.

  143. Relative to opportunity, however, Australia etc. have a shortage of talented and smart people, while the so-called shitholes have a relative over-supply. That is why talented and smart people earn more in Australia etc. than they do in so-called shitholes.

    Oh I see. Too many doctors and engineers in India, Afghanistan, Sudan and Somalia. That’s why their infrastructure is terrific and their populations are some of the healthiest people on the planet.

    If entrepreneurship is included in the definition of talented and smart, then it is not possible to have an oversupply of talented and smart.

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative. They must be hard-working, having had to raise the money to pay their fare. In other words, they are the kind of people we should want to migrate to Australia.

    There you go, the entrepreneur is being plucked out of the very shit-holes where they are so desperately needed.

  144. egg_

    Immigration is really a big government program designed to effect wealth redistribution. A true free market would have approximately zero immigration. Businesses are free to hire robots if they can’t find workers at low wages. The worst thing that can happen is we grow our GDP/capita faster, like Japan and South Korea. Sounds like a good deal.

    And software is taking over white collar jobs, if da Productivity! is all that matters.

  145. Roger

    Horne’s quote should be inscribed in both chambers of the Australian parliament and recited before each session.

    Excellent suggestion, Bear!

  146. Stimp:I married a genuine refugee wamen you fat lesbian.

    Right, so you hate immigrants so much that you married one.

  147. egg_

    We are not getting the best.

    Could we take in Euro’s, displaced by their immigration hordes?

  148. Roger

    The worst thing that can happen is we grow our GDP/capita faster, like Japan and South Korea.

    We’ll need to; all those unemployed migrants could get restive if not kept in the lifestyle to which they’ve become accustomed since arriving in this fair land.

  149. Roger

    Could we take in Euro’s, displaced by their immigration hordes?

    We’ll need a new dictation test…

    They have to write a 2000 word essay in English on how mass 3rd world migration ruined their society.

  150. Stimpson J. Cat

    Right, so you hate immigrants so much that you married one.

    Why do you think I hate immigrants Monty?

  151. Fisky

    Via @Brexit, Bloomberg Brexit
    “Britain’s wages are picking up as fewer workers from the eastern EU fill jobs”

    Oh no! “Libertarians” will be fuming!

  152. thefrolickingmole

    Could we take in Euro’s, displaced by their immigration hordes?

    Last time we tried that we took in thousands of Poms fleeing the reforms of Margaret Thatcher.

    They dont send us their best people.
    Low energy
    Mind Mah tea
    Sad.

  153. struth

    Why do you think I hate immigrants Monty?

    As I said, they hear what they want you to have said

  154. egg_

    They have to write a 2000 word essay in English on how mass 3rd world migration ruined their society.

    They’ll have to try to keep it under 2,000 words!

  155. Why do you think I hate immigrants Monty?

    You hate everyone else, so it figures. 🙂

  156. egg_
    #2646555, posted on February 26, 2018 at 1:51 pm

    We are not getting the best.

    Could we take in Euro’s, displaced by their immigration hordes?

    That’s coming, and fast.
    There aren’t too many places the Western Euros can escape to, and escape they will.
    Look at that virtue signalling fuckwit George Clooney and his human rights lawyer rat faced wife.
    They escaped out of Italy and fast as soon as a horde of ‘migrants’ camped 200 metres from his villa.
    Those with capital will escape. Bank on it.

  157. Stimpson J. Cat

    You hate everyone else, so it figures. 🙂

    Monty I love you, and everyone else more than you can possibly imagine.
    But loving everyone does not necessarily mean I am a nice person.
    And it does not mean I want you to live next door.

  158. Yeah right Stumpy, you’re a bong-smoking tie-dye-wearing hippie.

  159. Roger

    ‘It’s quite a shock’: (Black) Teens attack with crowbars and baseball bats

    Be thankful they were assimilated thugs.

    Weapon of choice in Africa is the machete.

  160. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    I think it’s time we just reached the conclusion that the libertarian movement is an offshoot of Leftism and nothing more than that. Libertarians overwhelmingly supported Angela Merkel’s importation of 1.5 million Muslim welfare shoppers, which is surprising for a “small government” movement. But not surprising when you realise that “libertarians” by and large favour a larger state.

    libertarianism was born in a poorly educated, low tech world where migration was overwhelmingly from white Europe.

  161. TP

    But instead we have it imposed on us by fuckwits like Morro and Sinc.
    + 1000

  162. egg_

    Baa Humbug
    #2646568, posted on February 26, 2018 at 2:00 pm

    If we have any brains, we’ll profit from the Euroweenies’ maelstrom.

  163. Stimpson J. Cat

    Yeah right Stumpy, you’re a bong-smoking tie-dye-wearing hippie.

    Look can we stay on topic and have a civil discussion without throwing around all these nasty insults please?

  164. egg_

    Look at that virtue signalling fuckwit George Clooney and his human rights lawyer rat faced wife.
    They escaped out of Italy and fast as soon as a horde of ‘migrants’ camped 200 metres from his villa.

    Karma.

  165. Goanna

    Anyone with enough enterprise to gate crash Australia surely has what it takes to rort welfare.

  166. OldOzzie

    Stimpson J. Cat
    #2646591, posted on February 26, 2018 at 2:17 pm
    OldOzzie maybe you should post that on the Abbot Misses the Boat thread.

    Trust Tony Abbott to tell it like it is about issues that matter most – JOHN STONE

    Last week Tony Abbott delivered the most outstanding speech, on immigration and other related topics, by any politician for many years. When did you last hear from an Australian politician any speech that calmly and analytically set out to initiate a vitally needed public debate? Ironically, the last one in my memory was also delivered (in London) by the same Tony Abbott last October, dealing then with the “global warming” religion and the associated erroneous and hugely costly energy policies from which we all suffer.

    Have you ever heard Malcolm Turnbull make a memorable speech about anything — apart, perhaps, from his recent remarks excoriating his then deputy prime minister in terms that the latter, the next day, justifiably called “inept” and “unnecessary”?

    The reaction to Abbott’s speech from his Liberal Party colleagues was deplorable — ad hominem, illogical and in many respects untruthful, a response that would discredit a secondary school debating team.

    Yet even that deplorable response focused on one part only of Abbott’s remarks, which dealt not merely with our excessive immigration rate but also with stagnant wages growth, housing prices, jobs — particularly for young Australians — infrastructure backlogs, demands on our welfare bill and harmful effects on our already badly strained cultural harmony. All these, Abbott said, are being adversely affected by today’s immigration rate.

    Contrary to many of his critics’ subsequent misrepresentations, Abbott did not assert that his proposal to cut the permanent immigration program from its present 190,000 a year to the 110,000 it averaged under the Howard government would solve all this. What he did claim, correctly, was that reducing immigrant inflow would contribute usefully to doing so.

    Among several competitors, the most shameful response came from Scott Morrison. He relied on faulty analysis and, far worse, erroneous claims. He should know that in the lead-up to the 2015 budget, Abbott pressed (in the expenditure review committee, of which Morrison was a member) for a cut in the permanent immigration program.

    He should also recall that, after the 2013 election, when Morrison was minister for immigration, Abbott cut the most costly permanent immigration component, the refugee and humanitarian program, from the 20,000 level to which Julia Gillard had raised it, back to 13,750 — a truly courageous decision that, predictably, brought down the usual furies on Abbott’s head.

    How do I know this? Well, Abbott has publicly spelled out those ERC facts, and if I had to choose between him and the notoriously duplicitous Morrison, of whose underhand role in Abbott’s sacking I have written about elsewhere, I would unhesitatingly choose the former. But I don’t have to rely on that judgment. From March 2011 to September 2015, one of our sons served as Abbott’s chief economic adviser, and although during all that time his lips remained sealed, including to his father, he has now authorised me to say that Abbott’s published account is entirely accurate. So Morrison is wrong. Would he repeat his claim in answer to a carefully framed parliamentary question?

    What, moreover, should we make of Morrison’s claim that cutting the permanent immigration program would cost the budget $4 billion-$5 billion over four years?

    These figures are thoroughly misleading. For starters, they are up to 10 times higher per migrant place than comparable figures published by Treasury in the May 2009 budget would suggest. But even if you accept them as the commonwealth’s budgetary cost (which, for several reasons, I don’t), they neglect entirely the costs to which the greatly increased immigrant intake has subjected state budgets and local authorities. Think more schools, additional hospital beds, more police, more roads, footpaths, kerbing and guttering, and the list goes on. NSW and Victoria, in particular, where the immigrant increase has been concentrated, are groaning under these pressures.

    In any case, ask yourself this question: If Abbott’s proposed immigration cut could raise lower-income workers’ wages by even (say) a few per cent, if it could produce even (say) a 5 per cent fall in the average cost of Sydney and Melbourne housing, if even (say) 20,000 more young Australians could get jobs now being taken by immigrants, wouldn’t you think that even a commonwealth budgetary cost of just $1 billion a year would be well worth paying?

    John Stone is a former Secretary to the Treasury (1979- 1984).

    LETS SEE

    wouldn’t you think that even a commonwealth budgetary cost of just $1 billion a year would be well worth paying?

    Hey – Get Rid of the ABC – Immediate Saving $1Billion and plus Assest Sales

  167. notafan

    Jeepers

    You’d think Tony had called for a reintroduction of the white Australia policy.

    It’s a reduction in the total number of migrants to give us a breather not xenophobia on steroids.

    This is just getting weird.

    And fancy, in a democracy, having government policy that is popular with the people.

    How dare they!

  168. Fisky

    The $1 billion federal budget cost is more than compensated for by the more than $2 billion in annual savings thanks to Operation Sovereign Borders (this doesn’t even include the welfare savings).

    It’s worth noting that most “libertarians” opposed Operation Sovereign Borders, even though it dramatically reduced federal spending.

  169. egg_

    You’ve got to wonder if that is the best use of their human capital.

    Au pairs for the Greens would be fitting

    Da irony of a 50 y.o. man with his 14 yo bride caring for Di Natale’s kids.

  170. notafan

    People who arrive by boat into Europe are risk taking and innovative blah blah.

    They demonstrate that by heading for those countries with the most generous welfare systems.

    Then they sit in refugee centres demanding their native foods, get involved in criminal activities or beg in the streets, sometimes even worse.

    Nothing says risk taking and innovative more than a beggar on every corner.

    Some work and make a best effort, but we’ll see how overall the experience will be.

    Oh and if people didn’t destroy their personal documents and lie about their antecedents maybe the processing times would not be so long.

    The farcical child migrants is one.

    Plus how many of the ‘good savers’ are there because the extended family kicked in the money expecting either/both a chain migration or a handsome return via a share of the welfare cheque?

  171. Iampeter

    We are better off when goods and services cross borders and when people cross borders, too.

    I think the economic arguments for immigration are quite correct but they are not political arguments because the role of government is not to make anyone “better off” or do anything with the economy, but to protect individual rights.
    Just like with the gun debate, since the act of owning guns is not a rights violation it shouldn’t be illegal so since the act of immigration is not a rights violation so there’s no role for the state to play.

    All the other arguments good or bad simply don’t have anything to do with politics or are just collectivist and therefore leftist.

  172. egg_

    Get Rid of the ABC – Immediate Saving $1Billion and plus Assest Sales

    They don’t have many assets these days, thanks to outsourcing, yet 1,000 journos hanging out the doors – fancy that!

  173. Roger

    Those with capital will escape. Bank on it.

    Already happening – Hungary is a popular destination.

    Increasing numbers of W. European J3ws are making aliyah to Israel.

  174. Zatara

    Those with capital will escape. Bank on it.

    Take a look at what’s happening in San Francisco, or California more generally. There is a reason California is rapidly swirling down the drain economically. The taxpayers are leaving and the benefit sucking illegal immigrant swarms are growing exponentially.

    All because someone thought borders to keep out shedloads of illegal aliens was a bad thing (and that paying people not to work but to pump out babies was a good thing).

    Stop paying and feeding people not to work and it’s amazing what jobs they suddenly feel aren’t beneath their dignity.

  175. Viva

    People who arrive by boat into Europe are risk taking and innovative blah blah.

    The people who arrived in Europe from Africa and elsewhere several thousand years ago were the real risk takers.

  176. struth

    I think the economic arguments for immigration are quite correct but they are not political arguments because the role of government is not to make anyone “better off” or do anything with the economy, but to protect individual rights.

    The role of the government is to do what it’s told to do by the majority of voters, who inevitably vote for security (which they decided was a core government responsibility) so they can get on with their lives.
    It doesn’t involve importing mass herds into a socialist state set up by government that no majority voted for this time.
    You are an anarchist Iampeter and believe that anyone who believes in a government by the people for the people is a lefty.
    There is a role for government, and that is to do what it is told to do.
    Not what it decides to do.
    And if it did what it’s owners and bosses wanted it to do, they would be better off.
    Government is exactly there to make the peoples lives what they vote to have it.
    And it’s a government owned by the people within a specific , politically defined, bordered area.

  177. egg_

    There are IT fiefdoms as well.

    We document strong differences across origin countries in occupational specialization patterns
    by foreign-born workers in the U.S. economy. Immigrants from China, India, and some other countries
    in Asia are much more likely to specialize in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) occupations than are native-born workers
    or immigrants from other origin regions. These specialization patterns are persistent across time,
    common to males and females from the same origin countries, common to immigrants from an origin
    country regardless of their age of arrival in the United States, and even common to immigrants
    and native-born workers who share a common ancestry. Persistence in occupational specialization
    patterns across age cohorts, arrival cohorts, and nativity cohorts suggests that factors other
    than the country in which one completes secondary or tertiary schooling play a role in occupational
    sorting. These additional factors may include job-search networks that are specific to ethnic
    groups
    and cultural norms that vary across origin countries and ethnicities in the prestige assigned to particular occupations.

  178. Zatara

    How many of the immigrants of the last 2 decades would unquestionably fight for Australia?

    How many would fight for Australia’s enemies?

    The rest of this is stupid word games.

  179. Sinclair Davidson

    Some people say the nicest things:

    SeanB of Stafford 5 hours ago
    Doomlord is a funny one. He can be very rational and convincing when he wants to, but when the topic is Tony Abbott he goes completely off the rails. Loves Turnbull, however.

    He’s kind of like a male Niki Savva.

    Is now the time to say I quite like Niki Savva? Too soon.

    More seriously, the argument works in reverse too. Some people have allowed their dislike of Turnbull to poison and dominate their thinking.

  180. Neil

    I think one reason the Brits left the EU was they were getting swamped by the Poles and had lost control of their borders. A lot of immigrants come for one reason only- money

    Believe or not the White Australia policy was not as racist as people think. Unions were worried about foreigners from Asia working for lower wages and driving the wages of everyone else down.

    Substitute the Eastern Europeans for the Asians and the same thing may happen. In fact it has. The Russian i used to work with when i had a job was working for nothing

  181. Stimpson J. Cat

    Some people have allowed their dislike of Turnbull to poison and dominate their thinking.

    Let’s test this theory.
    Would you trust Malcolm with your pet cat?

  182. struth

    Doomlord is a funny one. He can be very rational and convincing when he wants to, but when the topic is Tony Abbott he goes completely off the rails. Loves Turnbull, however.

    I wish it was funny.

    The fact that a degree in economics (a useless talkfest of wankers who can’t agree on anything) gets him so much air to dribble shit isn’t really funny at all.

    He’s always had a thing for Malcom, and because he is surrounded by leftists, thinks Malcom is the only rational alternative, as the world has turned too far left for true conservatism.

    But it’s only in Sinclair”s little world of, shall we call it, Elitist populism where this seems to be the case.

    Trump proves the Malcoms and Sinclairs of this world are no more than elitist fools.

    By the way, great blog Sinclair.
    Thanks a lot.
    Love you……………………………………..

  183. Snoopy

    Mole 11.34 am

    If I have a kid looking for an apprenticeship/further training, should i be happy that trades level qualifications can be imported?

    Good question. It deserved an answer.

  184. struth

    I’m still waiting for my question to be answered regarding helping out Venezuela with immigration.
    It’s been neatly sidestepped, it seems.

  185. herodotus

    Deporting migrants for being criminal is attractive except for the noting by several above that lawfare so far prevents it being an effective option.
    I’d deport for showing disrespect in court, or disrespect for our country and our culture (that might decimate the ABC, win/win) – let alone more serious offences.
    But let’s get back to basics – we need a very discriminatory immigration policy in order to avoid all the follow up actions that cost heaps and often fail due to activism judicial or otherwise.

  186. Tim Neilson

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative. They must be hard-working, having had to raise the money to pay their fare.

    This is exactly correct!

    Obviously no-one who turns up in Indonesia from some shithole carrying a wad of USD to pay a people smuggler has got that cash from crime.

    You know it makes sense.

  187. Snoopy

    Obviously no-one who turns up in Indonesia from some shithole carrying a wad of USD to pay a people smuggler has got that cash from crime.

    Or passed the hat around the extended family to fund a bridgehead for future family reunions.

  188. Iampeter

    The role of the government is to do what it’s told to do by the majority of voters

    Not if you’re right wing its not. To those of us on the right the role of government is to protect individuals from the majority.

    It doesn’t involve importing mass herds into a socialist state set up by government that no majority voted for this time.

    This is not an example of immigration, it’s just a straw man that no one is advocating for.

    You are an anarchist Iampeter and believe that anyone who believes in a government by the people for the people is a lefty.

    I support a rights protecting government which is the opposite of anarchy. You on the other hand support majority rule. That’s called leftism. But anyone advocating the state do something other than protect rights is being a leftist.

    So in the end on the immigration issue, all you’re doing is fighting straw-men and advocating collectivist and therefore leftist politics.

  189. Goanna

    Forty years ago RMIT was the best place to do a plumbing apprenticeship. The workshop fronted Swanson St. Now they’re phoning plumbers in from overseas.

    Australia. Ripe for the picking.( Have we got a loophole for you! Come on down – any dodgy ticket will do.)

  190. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    If politicians focused on our trashed birthrates the whole immigration thing would be unnecessary. It is no accident that Gillard abolished the baby bonus. Fabianism is a toxic corrosive ideology of destruction of the current social order and economic order from within, what better way than to flood the streets with easily manipulated barbarians.

  191. struth

    I support a rights protecting government which is the opposite of anarchy. You on the other hand support majority rule. That’s called leftism. But anyone advocating the state do something other than protect rights is being a leftist.

    What a load of shit.
    What is democracy to you?
    Leftism?
    I support self rule through democracy.

    You have a funny notion of what government should be.
    Your model is to protect the individual from the majority?
    So if the majority of voters decide I should get a tax cut, the government should protect me from it?

    You’re an anarchist, and as we see with radical utopia libertarianism, it ends in totalitarian rule.
    Government is a single uncontrolled body to you that you want out of the picture, except to save the individual from democracy.
    Your confusion comes from treating government as it’s own organism instead of one controlled by the people through democracy.
    Representing, not ruling.

    Mine is to protect the individual by enforcing the rule of law decided through democracy.
    You free for all is anarchy through minimalized unrepresentative government.
    The representative part of this is key to my argument.
    Controlled small government, not small but controlling.
    Which ends in chains.

  192. Squirrel

    It is difficult to see the bulk of city-centric immigration (as opposed to temporary immigration for the agriculture sector and during the mining boom) as much more than the importation of consumers for domestically-focused retail and service businesses, and clients for taxpayer-funded health, welfare etc. services.

    Aside from periods of extraordinary peak demand (once again, the mining boom) the skilled migration argument begs a lot of questions about what the hell we are doing with the ever-increasing billions being pumped into the education sector – particularly at a time when we have shameful levels of youth unemployment and an overly high level of under-employment.

    The “ageing population” argument ignores the inconvenient fact that migrants age, too – not just people born in Straya – so that really is an argument for an ever-accelerating and never-ending population pyramid scheme.

  193. Immigrants don’t just increase demand for Australian goods and services, they also increase the supply of Australian goods and services. This is especially so given the fact that Australia’s immigrant intake is skewed towards skilled migrants. People who are likely to quickly gain employment, start paying taxes, and making other contributions to Australian life.

    The mass importation of labor, whether skilled or unskilled, is not a value adding activity. As Mill’s fourth proposition on capital states, “Demand for commodities is not demand for labor”. In other words, you cannot increase the number of people employed by increasing the demand for goods and services. And you most certainly cannot increase the amount of people employed by increasing the number of people.

    Aggregate demand and supply refers to the amount of goods and services that already exist, and if they do not already exist then the means to produce them. Migrants will only add value to an economy if they are entrepreneurs.

  194. Fisky

    I support a rights protecting government which is the opposite of anarchy. You on the other hand support majority rule. That’s called leftism. But anyone advocating the state do something other than protect rights is being a leftist.

    Beep boop! Autistic libertarian alert!

  195. egg_

    Autistic libertarian alert!

    “Enough rope”.

  196. I have no problem with deporting illegals or migrants on temporary visas who have committed criminal offences but why can’t we simply reduce the current intake of 191,000 by 50-75% for 10 years?

  197. Iampeter

    What is democracy to you?
    Leftism?

    Yes. Democracy, rule of the majority is just mob rule. It is the transition stage between rule of law (which is a republic or a constitutional democracy) and anarchy, which in turn then leads to totalitarianism.
    As the American founders said, they created “a republic if you can keep it” NOT a democracy which is a disaster and the term is thrown around today with no understanding.

    You have a funny notion of what government should be.
    Your model is to protect the individual from the majority?
    So if the majority of voters decide I should get a tax cut, the government should protect me from it?

    I support a rights protecting government, which means the police, the courts and the armed forces. This is what it means to support the “rule of law”. In such a situation you don’t get to decide anything for anyone. Not how they run their business, nor how they run their personal affairs or where they immigrate from. Nothing. Again this is the opposite of anarchy which is a state of NO government at all.

    Mine is to protect the individual by enforcing the rule of law decided through democracy.

    Which is just a contradiction. What you’re supporting is the imposition of whatever position the mob takes, on everyone by force. This is leftism.

  198. notafan

    In fact migrants that get to import aged parents for the bargain basement price of $47,000 are probably accelerating the ageing of Australia.

    Yep two extra old people for every adult migrant.

    It’s a bargain.

  199. Leo G

    … shall we call it, Elitist populism …

    Perhaps the LPA should now correspondingly be called the Pseudo-Progressive Populist Party. Keep Australia out of it.

  200. Iampeter thinks people organized democratically and governed by the rule of law are prohibited from actually enacting and enforcing an immigration policy that limits immigration to 100,000 or less for a reason he has yet to articulate beyond juvenile assertions of leftism and the like.

  201. struth

    Zippy, the knowledge no one tells the great unwashed is this, as I am sure you agree.
    The elites and the those in charge know full well how wealth is created.
    By human effort.
    You can only do so much your self but if you can get others to do it for you, the sky is the Limit.

    It’s always been about Slaves.
    Way before Roman times.
    Owning other humans and getting them to work for you, to create your wealth.

    Some do it honestly through business and pay their workers others hold a gun to your head.
    Before guns it was whips and chains.

    United slaves are dangerous, but divided they are conquered.
    Make those slaves dependant on you for survival and you will always be the fat cat on the top of the pile.

    That’s what’s going on all over the west right now.
    Too much wealth was going to the slaves for the global socialist/communist liking.
    Right now, the U.N. is just moving the wealth around to other countries, because they care not what part of the world slaves for them, as long as they are not claiming too much wealth for themselves for their efforts.
    The slaves need to be bled dry, and still keep working, quickly disposed of once they stop being productive via euthanasia .
    They are eating too much in the west, and getting sick, effecting the bottom line, they are far too costly as slaves.
    They are remedying this as I type.
    The big alpha male slaves won’t fight due to strangely all sorts of Porn is free on the internet to keep them docile.
    Nothing else in the world seems to be free, except for that.
    Being a white western male is a threat to U.N. socialist slavers because they know of a better life, they forged a better way.
    If blacks had built the beautiful western world, they’d be public enemy number one.
    That’s why they are losing out to mussies in victim poker.
    Blacks have lived in the white man’s west and loved it and fought for it.

    They are moving their slaves around to keep them down and grab more power and control.
    But the west must be taken down to do this.
    They won’t be thinking it out like this, they may not use the term slave, it would seem distasteful but they will in the U.N be very much aware that they can’t grab control while the west is healthy. It’s typical for those type of people who believe they are born superior.

    I am using the term slavery, to illustrate a point, as it is a more honest term and so we can see that this is nothing new.
    It’s been this way for thousands of years.
    If we want to be divided and conquered global socialist ruled slaves, we’ll stay in the U.N.

  202. notafan

    Weird argument re ‘the rule of law’

    Laws are made by governments after people vote them in, if people don’t like thise laws they can vote them out again.

    You don’t like us peasants having a say in what the law is, emigrate.

  203. notafan

    Those laws include defence.

    Apparently countries should not be allowed to prevent invasions, or something.

  204. struth

    And I wrote a big wad there waiting to get Iampeters reply.

    I right on this blog to discuss ideas and hope as many people as possible read it.
    You have shown your argument to be full of holes in your last reply.

    I support a rights protecting government, which means the police, the courts and the armed forces. This is what it means to support the “rule of law”. In such a situation you don’t get to decide anything for anyone. Not how they run their business, nor how they run their personal affairs or where they immigrate from. Nothing. Again this is the opposite of anarchy which is a state of NO government at all.

    See, no one said anything about how people run their businesses etc.
    You believe in a government for security and to uphold the rule of law.
    How’s it paid for?
    With taxes, these things just don’t exist.
    Hence, when people get together to decide how much we are going to fork out for this “service” we democratically decide how much to spend, and on exactly what.
    Democracy sir, has not been a failure in anyway shape or form in comparison to the alternatives.
    Which are just varying levels of totalitarianism, or anarchy.

    I think you have shot yourself in the foot enough for others to see your delusion.
    My work here is done.

  205. struth

    I right FMD……………….?

  206. Craig Mc

    This from a man who couldn’t amend a single section of the Racial Discrimination Act while PM. A man who increased taxes. A man whose government set the current renewable energy target. Good luck with that.

    Seeing the dead weight he was dragging at the time, it’s a wonder we repealed the carbon & mining taxes and stopped the boats.

    They were the last three useful things the Liberals did by the way.

  207. There are immigrants and then there are Immigrants.

    Some immigrants honour and respect the culture, and are grateful for the opportunities and the fair go. we are just about true blue if not dinky di. Our kids are 100% Ozzie and indistinguishable in your average football or rugby crowd.

    Some immigrants are still immigrants after several generations.

  208. Arky

    This thread is awesome.
    Please go full libertarian retard more often.
    I laughed so hard at some of Stimpson’s comments I whizzed down my leg a bit.

  209. I think it’s time we just reached the conclusion that the libertarian movement is an offshoot of Leftism and nothing more than that. Libertarians overwhelmingly supported Angela Merkel’s importation of 1.5 million Muslim welfare shoppers, which is surprising for a “small government” movement. But not surprising when you realise that “libertarians” by and large favour a larger state.

    Fisky, your definition? of libertarian is different to mine. “Libertarian” is a word that has become about as misleading as “fascist”, so I think you are knocking them for something they are not. Libertarian thinking is a tendency based on freedom, not anarchy. Responsibility, not entitlement. Some at least understand that libertarians can only exist inside a fairly sophisticated and tolerant society, and that tolerance must be mutually accepted and supported by a high degree of personal responsibility for personal actions. Importing a foreign intolerant culture will make the setting impossible for libertarians to survive.

    Libertarians need protecting, like a sandbox needs a high fence around it.

  210. Arky

    Libertarian” is a word that has become about as misleading

    ..
    Ah!
    The “no true libertarian” argument.
    Surely if the common definition of libertarian is soft left autistic knucklehead, all the ones who aren’t soft left autistic knuckleheads should find another tag for themselves?

  211. egg_

    Some at least understand that libertarians can only exist inside a fairly sophisticated and tolerant society, and that tolerance must be mutually accepted and supported by a high degree of personal responsibility for personal actions.

    Libertarians need protecting, like a sandbox needs a high fence around it.

    Nailed it.
    Are all Libertarians academics?

  212. Catfeesh?

    More seriously, the argument works in reverse too. Some people have allowed their dislike of Turnbull to poison and dominate their thinking.

    Yeeees. I think that if Turnbull was into freedom of speech, deregulation, culling the renewballs industry, slashing spending on stupid things, taking Kevin Rudd’s alleged meataxe to the public service and everything else to do with government, and so on and so forth, we’d all think he was just grouse. There would be no dislike to poison and dominate thought.

    Tell me. What has he done that is of any use at all?

  213. Mark A

    egg_
    #2646973, posted on February 26, 2018 at 8:43 pm

    Nailed it.
    Are all Libertarians academics?

    Probably not, but be sure that all academics are libertarians, bar the out and out commies of course.

  214. Tel

    Yes. Democracy, rule of the majority is just mob rule. It is the transition stage between rule of law (which is a republic or a constitutional democracy) and anarchy, which in turn then leads to totalitarianism.

    No. Democracy is a proxy for war, where the style of war involves mass production, and massive attack fronts, such as rows of people lining up to shoot rifles at each other, or factories churning out tanks, aircraft, and ammo. This style of warfare usually implies that the majority side will be the winner.

    If people know they would lose a war, they are less inclined to fight and thus willing to begrudgingly let the other mob have their way. Very few people start a war they intend to lose.

    The benefit of Democracy is that it often does avoid a war. Other than that it has no particular moral justification, but since we have had some particularly nasty wars in the past, and since the other options are worse, we stick with Democracy.

  215. Rohan

    People who arrive in Australia by boat are likely to be risk-taking and innovative. They must be hard-working, having had to raise the money to pay their fare. In other words, they are the kind of people we should want to migrate to Australia.

    You’ve obviously never hired these boat people/asylum seekers. I have. It’s too hard.

    Had one bloke who had to fly to Perth for 3 days to give evidence in a people smuggling case. The day he was to return he hadn’t fronted work. I called and left messages then rang the WA DPP who said he boarded the flight to Melbourne which got in at 9.30pm. When he finally rocked up his excuse was he was too tired for work after his long day, so he had to sleep. That was the final straw after a quite a number of similar issues. This same “asylum seeker/refuge” asked at one point if he could take leave with pay to go home and visit his wife. He hadn’t even worked a month at that point.

    And the problem is they’re displacing Aussie citizens who are not highly educated for unskilled jobs. 12 months back I put on a bloke who was long term unemployed but had a great work history. Best worker I’ve had in years and a really decent young man. Told me that the Centrelink contracted employment agencies were preferencing new arrivals over people like him. I had one other prospective job seeker in that batch say the same thing.

    Add the 100 odd thousand recently unemployed citizens from the car industry and sure, it’s a win win situation. More labour competition and all that. Because low skilled manufacturing jobs are a dime a dozen right now.

    Yeah, asylum seekers are helping GDP alright. But not in a good way.

  216. Fisky

    Fisky, your definition? of libertarian is different to mine. “Libertarian” is a word that has become about as misleading as “fascist”, so I think you are knocking them for something they are not.

    Jannie, the libertarian movement is defined by the mass of people who call themselves “libertarians”. And the overwhelming majority of self-described “libertarians” support Germany and Sweden’s immigration policies, even though importing millions of Muslims has been a total disaster.

    We must understand that it is not possible to achieve liberty through the framework of libertarianism – it is a bait-and-switch movement designed to further the Left’s strategic goals.

  217. egg_

    Mark A
    #2646977, posted on February 26, 2018 at 8:48 pm

    Yup, protected species of one form or another.

  218. candy

    Ryan Hadjimihalakis the media advisor to the government’s chief whip has resigned.

    Like Andrew Bolt says, the email sent to numerous journalists shows what the Turnbull government really think of Abbott and Joyce, as it comes from one of the highest offices to the PM.

    I’m sure they are still chuckling about it but this Ryan has no job. Obviously the chief whip Ms Marino knew about it as he used her email, and ok’d it. Really, she should be the one to resign, not the underling.

  219. egg_

    Yes. Democracy, rule of the majority is just mob rule. It is the transition stage between rule of law (which is a republic or a constitutional democracy) and anarchy, which in turn then leads to totalitarianism.

    Now we have Agenda21, where the UN votes itself “free stuff” from other democracies.

  220. Our constitution empowers us to restrict immigration, Iampeter. What do you say?

  221. Mr Black

    What mental defect seem to affect libertarians on the issue of immigration? People are not an economic equation and being “richer” doesn’t mean a goddam thing if 70% of the families in your street don’t speak English and more than a few come from cultures that regard raping women as a sport. A very, very slight increase in wealth is not worth living in a 3rd world community.

  222. egg_

    being “richer” doesn’t mean a goddam thing if 70% of the families in your street don’t speak English

    That would be the proles’ streets, dear fellow.

  223. Tel

    Told me that the Centrelink contracted employment agencies were preferencing new arrivals over people like him. I had one other prospective job seeker in that batch say the same thing.

    That’s kind of interesting… but the “employment agencies” never actually employ anyone, they merely operate as a middle-man to parade potential employees in front of potential employers. Thus, you would expect that if there’s a problem with their approach, someone else might step in and be a better middle-man. At the end of the day, the employer has to make the decision.

    I guess what I’m saying is I sense that perhaps some of the incentives are wrong in those employment agency contracts, or maybe there’s a closed market there. I’m not entirely sure. Does anyone know how easy it is to start a new agency and get in on the game?

  224. Fisky

    I believe I can assist you with your enquiry, Mr Black. A significant percentage of “libertarians” suffer from Autistic Spectrum Disorder, which massively impedes on their ability to perceive social interactions. They believe importing millions of Muslims is very good for the economy and for freedom more generally.

    Sadly, many “libertarians” work in the social sciences and the public sector, where they are able to inflict their improbable understanding of human relations on the policy sphere.

  225. Crossie

    Whenever I read or hear the charge of populism I know for certain that the speaker or writer holds voters in complete contempt.

  226. Chris M

    So Libertarians have open door policies at their houses also? Being consistent and all, haha sounds like there’s a good place crash for free when visiting Melbourne.

    Funky cafes, hipsters, Indian shops, violent African gangs, greenies, junkies, hip art, and now free accommodation – what’s not to like about Melbourne.

  227. Crossie

    I think it’s time we just reached the conclusion that the libertarian movement is an offshoot of Leftism and nothing more than that. Libertarians overwhelmingly supported Angela Merkel’s importation of 1.5 million Muslim welfare shoppers, which is surprising for a “small government” movement. But not surprising when you realise that “libertarians” by and large favour a larger state.

    Libertarians are schizophrenics who want a small government that does not stop them making mistakes then they want a big government to pick up the tab for their mistakes.

  228. Crossie

    TP
    #2646510, posted on February 26, 2018 at 1:27 pm
    Morrison & Davidson like immigration because it helps grow our GDP. This is based on the fact that they “buy things”. The main flaw in this argument is that the Taxpayer pays when they “buy things”. Most immigrants are unemployable, won’t get a job or just love handouts. Add to the cost of helping them ‘buy things” the Taxpayer foots the bill for housing , educational & medical costs amongst many others. Way to go !!!

    This is what is most detestable about our politicians, they think we are too stupid to detect their sleight of hand.

  229. Crossie

    Tony Abbott’s view is that Net Overseas Migration which averaged 110,000 a year in the decade to mid-2006 has since doubled to 220,000 a year – peaking at over 300,000 under PM Rudd, that these are the highest figures in our history, there is widespread evidence of associated harm to the country’s citizenry, and the appropriate government policy response should be to return to the old long-term average of 110,000 a year.

    No, the appropriate government response should be zero for at least a generation. By then we will be able to assess the damage and possibly try to ameliorate it.

  230. Stimpson J. Cat

    Our kids are 100% Ozzie and indistinguishable in your average football or rugby crowd.

    Oh my kids are Aussie.
    They just look Ching Chong.

  231. Rob MW

    Judging by the extent of the comments, immigration is a hot topic. Trouble is that all political persuasions, the hard left commies, the centre left commies and the centre right commies, that make up the Australian single party State, don’t want to engage in the discussion which should really commence at the beginning, with the post WWII notion that multiculturalism was and will always be the panacea for extreme racial nationalism and stopping the rise to another bloodthirsty fuckwit murdering on the back of a single cultural identity.

    Nowadays it’s more about accumulating votes and extending the welfare state under the guise of the politics of diversity, identity and the cultural value of relentless funding of unquantifiable victimhood.

  232. Snoopy

    Obviously the chief whip Ms Marino knew about it as he used her email, and ok’d it. Really, she should be the one to resign, not the underling.

    Don’t be silly. She’s a diversity hire.

  233. Judging by the extent of the comments, immigration is a hot topic. Trouble is that all political persuasions, the hard left commies, the centre left commies and the centre right commies, that make up the Australian single party State, don’t want to engage in the discussion which should really commence at the beginning, with the post WWII notion that multiculturalism was and will always be the panacea for extreme racial nationalism and stopping the rise to another bloodthirsty fuckwit murdering on the back of a single cultural identity.

    They have rolled the dice while betting on fairy land and the magic dirt theory. This will all end with blood in the streets as was predicted. If I was still living in Australia I’d be choosing an isolated town in WA or QLD.

  234. classical_hero

    Sinclair Davidson
    #2646348, posted on February 26, 2018 at 11:21 am

    Tim – nobody sensible or intelligent has ever accused me of being soft on law and order. If people are committing crimes, call the police. If migrants are committing crimes, deport them.

    If since, believes that we have a nation of laws, then he hasn’t seen what the Marxist judiciary does. They constantly ignore what the law states. We have to stop the problem at the gates, before it gets to that state. Plus watch this video that shows just how bad immigration is and how it doesn’t fix problems both here and abroad.

  235. classical_hero

    If Sinc, not since.

  236. Glynn

    Judith Sloane must also be wrong, Sinc. Her recent article in the Australian agrees with Abbott and most Australians have the same view.

  237. egg_

    Libertarians are schizophrenics children who want a small government that does not stop them making mistakes then they want a big government to pick up the tab for their mistakes.

    FTFY.

  238. egg_

    watch this video that shows just how bad immigration is and how it doesn’t fix problems both here and abroad.

    What did Bob Carr label them – economic country shoppers?

  239. Tel
    #2647030, posted on February 26, 2018 at 9:15 pm

    I guess what I’m saying is I sense that perhaps some of the incentives are wrong in those employment agency contracts, or maybe there’s a closed market there. I’m not entirely sure. Does anyone know how easy it is to start a new agency and get in on the game?

    An agency must have a contract with the feds. Those who already got in on the ground floor expand their operations rather easier than those who wish to start from scratch.
    If you look at who owns these agencies, you’ll find they are all “connected” people.
    If a dinky di audit was done of the sector, much cronyism would be detected.

  240. egg_

    I guess what I’m saying is I sense that perhaps some of the incentives are wrong in those employment agency contracts, or maybe there’s a closed market there.

    Individuals would have a Centrelink case file, some of which is likely sent to the Agency.
    Reffos may get preferential treatment in the system – agencies and employers may be incentivised/”guided” by Policy to hire Reffos.

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