We need more judges like this

I’m sure many Cats recall a series of horrific rape crimes committed in Sydney in the early noughties. The judge who presided in the subsequent trial has written his memoirs and it got extracted in the AFR.  Some highlights:

Sexual intercourse without consent must be the worst crime after murder, because it involves a person invading the body of another, usually violently. It is a crime that assaults human dignity. During the sentencing process at the end of the Skaf trials, I expressed the view that what this gang did was worse than murder. I continue to hold that view. What the Skaf gang did was to enable multiple men to defile and degrade four young women. None of these young women will ever forget their experience at the hands of this gang.

When I commenced the summing up, I said this:

 “This is the 21st century since the birth of Christ; we are not in the 19th, 18th or 17th centuries. Whatever they might have done in those centuries, the law is now perfectly clear – any woman is entitled to refuse consent to sexual intercourse at any time. There is no concept in our law that there is a category of person called loose women who are deemed somehow to consent and certainly there is no law that merely because a young woman might give an indication that she was friendly with someone and didn’t protest too much when they were laying hands on her that she therefore was consenting to anything. That is not the law.”

I considered that I should say these words because it was important that the jury and anyone listening to the trial, including the accused, have a full realisation that a woman has to do nothing more than refuse consent. She does not have to fight to the death to protect herself from sexual assault.

The principles of sentencing required that I consider three important matters: retribution, deterrence and rehabilitation.

What that meant in this case was that I had to have regard to each offence of which the offender was convicted and had to fix a sentence for it. Then I had to have regard to whether some sentences should be served concurrently with others and whether some should be served cumulatively or partly cumulatively on others and I had to have regard to the total sentence. In Australia, courts do not impose sentences that are so extreme they could go beyond the life of the offender.

Sentenced to 55 years

In this case, by applying the principles that I have just mentioned, I imposed a head sentence of 55 years with a non-parole period of 40 years.

But. Alas.

To my mind, the community deserved to be protected from Bilal Skaf for many years. I do not believe he will ever acknowledge the seriousness of what he did. He will remain a threat to the community.

My sentence on him was substantially reduced by the Court of Criminal Appeal, which also reduced the sentences on some of the others involved, but not all of them. I have no intention of attempting to justify my sentences. My views on sentence were not those of the judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal, but their sentences prevail.

RTWT – a bit long but well worth it.

This entry was posted in Rule of law, Tough on Crime, tough on criminals. Bookmark the permalink.

171 Responses to We need more judges like this

  1. max

    Victim’s Rights is a detailed study of Exodus 21 and 22: the case laws. It identifies the fundamental principle of biblical civil justice: the obligation of the civil government to defend the interest of the victims of crime, and the obligation of the criminal, not the State, to pay restitution. The criminal does not owe a “debt to society.” He owes a debt to his victim.

    Because modern Christians have neglected or rejected the case laws of Exodus, they are now in judicial bondage to humanists, who see criminals as the victims and the law-abiding public as the aggressor.

    “Society” is said to be at fault. This the philosophy of environmental determinism. Result: injustice on a wide scale. What is needed is exactly what Colson recommends: a return to the case laws of the Bible. Victim’s Rights shows what judicial changes this would require and how such a system could work today.

    https://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/2146_47e.htm

  2. max

    There was no prison system in Mosaic Israel. This was no accident. There were punishments in Mosaic Israel: restitution to the victim, whipping, and execution for certain crimes. But there were no prisons. Why not? Because there was no need. The criminal owed no debt to society.

    If a person stole and then got caught, he paid double restitution to his victims (Exodus 22:4). He did not owe anything to society. He had not committed a crime against society. He owed money to his victims.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/09/gary-north/abolish-prisons/

  3. notafan

    All that means, to me, is that if Bilal Skaf was allowed to remain in the ‘community’ he would continue to rape women.

    Not a difficult conclusion to draw.

  4. Roger.

    But we’re not a theocracy, max.

    There are, of course, valid principles enunciated in the Mosaic law regarding justice, and they have found their way into our system of justice (including the justice of the death penalty, subsequently a victim of sentimental humanism), but we have no authority, whether civil or divine, to implement the Mosaic law in toto. It was given to a specific people for a specific purpose, that purpose being fulfilled by Christ, rendering the Mosaic law as a system redundant. Even devout J3ws of the present day do not and cannot follow it in its entirety and it is doubtful that ancient J3ws ever kept all its requirements.

  5. max

    Roger.

    “Theo-” derive from the Ancient Greek word Theos (Θεός), which means God,

    The word root -cracy comes from Greek –kratia ‘power, rule’ that usually refers to a form of government or rule.

    if you are not under Gods law than you are under ???

  6. max

    “Christ, rendering the Mosaic law as a system redundant”

    The Fulfillment of the Law

    17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

  7. mh

    I heard that Bilal Skaf got a well-deserved bashing in prison. Unfortunately the details are behind the Tele paywall.

  8. Mr Black

    I think a recall option against judges (or whole courts) should be included in the constitution. If recalled, they are stripped of any and all titles, payments, entitlements or pensions. One would hope it would rarely be used but simply by having it available, judges might take a keener interest in what the community thinks is appropriate, not what nice things the headlines writers will say about them.

  9. notafan

    A GOULBURN jail inmate who committed a “horrendous assault” on convicted gang rapist Bilal Skaf has received a custodial sentence.

    Travis Lee Braam, 25, was convicted in Goulburn Local Court on Wednesday for the April 2 assault, which resulted in serious facial injuries to Skaf.

    Braam is currently serving a 15-year sentence for a November 2010 home invasion in south Grafton. He is eligible for parole in November 2019.

    Police facts tendered to the court said Braam, along with fellow inmate Jesse Lunn-Reid, assaulted Skaf in a yard at Goulburn jail.

    Skaf was knocked to the ground, laying “unconscious and motionless on the ground, seemingly unable to defend himself” while the assault continued.

    While on the ground, Lunn-Reid kicked Skaf in the face a number of times, snapping his head back.

    Prisoner sentenced for bashing Bilal Skaf

  10. Roger.

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Precisely, that righteousness is found in Christ, not in the Law. Read Romans & Galatians.

    Christians are not under the Mosaic Law but in Christ who has fulfilled that law’s requirements.

    Those not in Christ are not under the law of Moses either (unless, that is, they are professed J3ws). Coram Deo they are under the general moral law that they know but suppress; coram mundo they are under the civil law, as God has authorised the state to wield the sword of justice, as indeed are Christians coram mundo, unless that law contradicts God’s will.

    The thing is, max, the Mosaic Law is not a smorgasbord, you don’t get to pick and choose; it’s either all or none.

  11. stackja

    Why this is an exception shows how warped ‘justice’ has become.

  12. Rafe

    Thanks Sinc.
    Good call!

  13. mh

    From Zulu’s link:

    ‘He would be in his cell, crying every night,’ said an inmate. ‘My mate did the plumbing in that wing, because the shitters were blocked up all the time. He’d go in there and unblock them, and I would carry his tools for him. I would walk past Skaf’s cell and he’d be crying. He thought he was a tough c**t when he went in — he believed all the Lebos were under the impression he was a legend because of what he’d done to the Aussie girls, but they hated the c**t. They wanted to kill him as much as anyone else, maybe more. He drove me mad with his crying, and I’d scream at him, calling him a little girl. He was just a little punk. A nothing.’

  14. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    skaf is a muslim, who is told by the koran that the kafir, ie non-muslim are inferior to the muslim and can be used and abused without consequence.

  15. Law1

    “But we’re not a theocracy, max. There are, of course, valid principles enunciated in the Mosaic law regarding justice, and they have found their way into our system of justice (including the justice of the death penalty, subsequently a victim of sentimental humanism), but we have no authority, whether civil or divine, to implement the Mosaic law in toto.”

    Roger,

    Indeed, we are not a theocracy, but if there is a moral standard it is God’s law, whether outward, which, as you note, is reflected as the state ought to wield the sword (Romans 13) on all (Christians and non-Christians alike). It is the same law before whom all must give an account to God – the redeemed and non-redeemed. And it is Christ’s work that redeems those who trust in Him from the eternal penalty for abrogation of that law.

    Civil law will reflect the moral state of a people. For example, (1) Australia just voted for same-sex marriage; or, (2) Australia has allocated to the state and its agency monopoly control over determination and issuance of money and the time-price of money – interest rates. Both are contrary to God’s law. Hence, while it it is true that you cannot pick and choose from the Mosaic law, the principle, for those who care, must be that civil law should reflect God’s law. The alternative is humanism, as Max noted. By reflection, I mean that the ceremonial law has been abrogated but not the civil or moral law. That is easy to say, it is harder to implement, because “we’re not a theocracy”. Hence, civil law reflects the morality of a people (and it does not preclude God’s unfavourable judgement on a society because they choose humanistic law versus God’s law (e.g. humanistic law, such as on which sanctions the termination of the life of a baby/fetus)).

  16. testpattern

    ‘the community deserved to be protected from Bilal Skaf for many years’

    Yes Davidson, and from the Italian Catholic rapists in Ingham too. But police did nothing.

    The infamous Ingham Train. Italian stallions snd pack rape N.Qld 1970s.

    ‘Women and girls have been raped regularly in the north Queensland cane farming town of Ingham for the last four years, sometimes by up to 32 men’

    https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:252071/GAMUT_1977_47_2.pdf

    ‘…beneath its tidy surface there was a sexual sub-culture characterised by multiple rape and a conspiracy of silence. Young women were being “trained” by town packs, the report said, then silenced by physical in-timidation and social pressure. The trains ran as often as three times a week, the conductors were known, but the police ‘ seemed powerless to act..

    “There’s been about 20 rapes,” he said. “They know all the blokes that do it. but they can’t prove it. The girls won’t go to the police because they’re scared. “Everybody knows about it. There are four blokes that set it all up, and afterwards they frighten the girls. They throw stones on their roofs, nnd they even cut one girl’s breasts. I know one of the girls that got raped, and she had a baby. She kept the baby, and she never went to the police.” ‘ [SMH]

    The National Times broke the original story

  17. testpattern

    ‘the community deserved to be protected from Bilal Skaf for many years’

    And from these guys. Police did nothing.

    The infamous Ingham Train. Pack rape N.Qld 1970s.

    ‘Women and girls have been raped regularly in the north Queensland cane farming town of Ingham for the last four years, sometimes by up to 32 men’

    https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:252071/GAMUT_1977_47_2.pdf

    ‘…beneath its tidy surface there was a sexual sub-culture characterised by multiple rape and a conspiracy of silence. Young women were being “trained” by town packs, the report said, then silenced by physical in-timidation and social pressure. The trains ran as often as three times a week, the conductors were known, but the police ‘ seemed powerless to act..

    “There’s been about 20 rapes,” he said. “They know all the blokes that do it. but they can’t prove it. The girls won’t go to the police because they’re scared. “Everybody knows about it. There are four blokes that set it all up, and afterwards they frighten the girls. They throw stones on their roofs, nnd they even cut one girl’s breasts. I know one of the girls that got raped, and she had a baby. She kept the baby, and she never went to the police.” ‘ [SMH]

    The National Times broke the original story

  18. Dr Fred Lenin

    How about a “Hanging Judge Jeffries for the destructive gangrene u.n.communists ,look good hanging off light poles “pour encourager les autres “.

  19. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I am glad the sentence was reduced upon appeal. Prison broke Scaf. That is enough.
    I have no sympathy for rapists, but 55 years was too severe, when horrific murders get less.
    None of the girls attacked is dead, although at times they may have wished to be so.
    Although women can be resilient to such brutality, as the women of Berlin found out post 1945.
    For me to say so though is simply to bring forth outrage, comments that war is different.

    Mine is not a popular view here, but one that I think tempers justice with a certain amount of mercy.
    Our own culture has had in previous times an unpleasant if unstated acceptance of gang rapes.
    The judge is actually doing a social justice warrior stunt: redefining the nature of the injury.
    I repeat, the crime was awful, disgraceful, the perp’s intent was obvious, but it was not murder.
    We abhor rape and always have, for what it is, a personal invasion. That’s sufficient to abhor it.
    Not to redefine it as the worse possible thing that can ever happen to a woman, worse than death.

  20. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I am glad the sentence was reduced upon appeal. Prison broke Scaf. That is enough.

    My longer comment following on from the above sentence and explaining my position has unaccountably gone into moderation. I hope it will return in due course. I don’t expect agreement but I would like the opportunity to disagree and offer reasons for this.

  21. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I am glad the sentence was reduced upon appeal. Prison broke Scaf. That is enough.

    I disagree. Prison is also supposed to remove you from society, and in this case Skaf had ruined too many lives, to be allowed back into society until he was an old man.

  22. Muddy

    The principles of sentencing required that I consider three important matters: retribution, deterrence and rehabilitation.

    I’m extremely surprised that ‘retribution’ is in the sentence above. I was under the impression that once the offender had been found guilty, the victim ceased to exist in the eyes of the law.

  23. Brett

    The principles of sentencing required that I consider three important matters: retribution, deterrence and rehabilitation.

    I’m extremely surprised that ‘retribution’ is in the sentence above. I was under the impression that once the offender had been found guilty, the victim ceased to exist in the eyes of the law.

    In NSW it is one of the specified objectives in s 3A of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act.

  24. Brett

    Here is the whole sec:

    The purposes for which a court may impose a sentence on an offender are as follows:

    (a) to ensure that the offender is adequately punished for the offence,

    (b) to prevent crime by deterring the offender and other persons from committing similar offences,

    (c) to protect the community from the offender,

    (d) to promote the rehabilitation of the offender,

    (e) to make the offender accountable for his or her actions,

    (f) to denounce the conduct of the offender,

    (g) to recognise the harm done to the victim of the crime and the community.

    Problem is; judges in interior and intermediate Appellate Courts rarely see the coal-face consequences of their decisions. First instance trial judges try, but they are rolled on appeal far too often.

  25. [Exodus] identifies the fundamental principle of biblical civil justice: the obligation of the civil government to defend the interest of the victims of crime, and the obligation of the criminal, not the State, to pay restitution. The criminal does not owe a “debt to society.” He owes a debt to his victim.

    Roger, please note that Max extracts a general principle; he doesn’t insist that each and every clause applies for all time, location and peoples. That’s possibly an indication of the essential difference between J3wish and Christian readings of the The Books. Let your understanding of the difference begin here.

  26. Robbo

    I am not one who has ever said that all judges are hopelessly out of touch with community expectations when sentencing violent criminals. Unfortunately though far too many of them are out of touch and seem intent on putting the rights of the perpetrators a long way ahead of the victims. The safety of the community is also ignored by these soft cock judges by enabling thugs and murderers back on the streets among us. This judge is not one of those but regrettably in the case commented on the Appeals Court judges acted disgracefully. Another instance of the criminals having a victory at the expense of the victims and the community.

  27. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I do not know why my comment is in moderation. I can’t see any forbidden words.

    I don’t agree with judges redefining a crime as this one does, with some somewhat Victorian sensibilities too about women. Rape is a crime with set penalties, even for horrendous rapes. This judge went beyond what is usual, set and recommended. He puts forward a view of rape which is quite close to saying that a woman cannot recover and that it is so bad that she might as well be dead. Rape is ‘invasive’. Well, so it is, but being dead, in my view is worse, and I would want my murderer to be punished more than my rapist. Which is not to say that I would like either of them to get off lightly.

    Rape is not murder. Lives may be ‘ruined’, to a lesser or greater extent (which is always debatable), and strong messages should be sent about the sorts of things Skaf did, even though they may once have been fairly commonplace in our own culture, but the penalty of 55 years is far more than is given for some of the most horrific murders. Sentencing should be proportionate and one might argue that 55 years was not that.

  28. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Once more in moderation. How exasperating. I’ll try simply one of the paragraphs:

    Rape is not murder. Lives may be ‘ruined’, to a lesser or greater extent (which is always debatable), and strong messages should be sent about the sorts of things Skaf did, even though they may once have been fairly commonplace in our own culture, but the penalty of 55 years is far more than is given for some of the most horrific murders. Sentencing should be proportionate and one might argue that 55 years was not that.

  29. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Right, that got through. I’ll try another bit of it, unaltered. Process of elimination:

    I don’t agree with judges redefining a crime as this one does, with some somewhat Victorian sensibilities too about women. Rape is a crime with set penalties, even for horrendous rapes. This judge went beyond what is usual, set and recommended. He puts forward a view of rape which is quite close to saying that a woman cannot recover and that it is so bad that she might as well be dead.

  30. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Right, let’s try the only remaining sentence:

    Rape is ‘invasive’. Well, so it is, but being dead, in my view is worse, and I would want my murderer to be punished more than my rapist. Which is not to say that I would like either of them to get off lightly.

  31. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Well, it seems to be the association of ‘rape’ with the word ‘invasive’. Can these words co-exist on the Cat?

  32. Tel

    Elizabeth, Skaf committed more than one crime, there were no extenuating circumstances, he had no remorse whatsoever, and he led others into committing crime.

    We all know the guy won’t rehabilitate. The purpose of some people’s life could be to serve as a warning to others.

  33. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    5) In the most prolonged and vicious attack, another woman was approached by the gang at Bankstown Station and subjected to a horrific six-hour ordeal where she was raped 25 times by a total of 14 gang members before being sprayed with a fire hose and left in the middle of nowhere. The young woman said her attackers had called her an ‘Aussie pig’ and hurled other verbal abuse at her.

    That’s the gory details of just one of those attacks, LizzieB.

  34. I am glad the sentence was reduced upon appeal. Prison broke Scaf. That is enough.

    Disagree.
    The deterrence factor was watered down.
    When he got 55 years, I’ll bet that upon hearing this news every Lebanese in Sydney had watery bowels.

  35. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Yes, they can.

    So once I’ve noted this, as the good judge does too, perhaps it is personalizing that does it.

    I’ll try an alternative, using ‘a’ rather than ‘my’.

    I would want a murderer to be punished more than a rapist. Which is not to say that I would like either of them to get off lightly.

  36. md

    If we elected both higher court judges and a judicial appointments panel that was responsible for appointing lower court judges we would have more judges like that.

    As long as judges are appointed by politicians the so-called separation of powers is an utter farce.

    The same applies to the police force. Do you know the name of your state’s police commissioner. I don’t. And what can we do when the police won’t keep order in the community? Absolutely nothing. It’s worth reading the Peeling Principles for a modern police force. In an Australian context, principle 5 is as far from the truth as it could possibly be. The police are meant to be ordinary citizens and not public servants, but if their boss is appointed by politicians instead of by us they are nothing more than public servants doing the bidding of their political masters.

    And let’s not get onto local government!

    But why would the Left give up their control of the courts, the police and, increasingly, local government. What a socialist dump this country has become.

  37. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Yep. Logical analysis. Works every time.

    Now youse all know wot I think about the Scaf sentencing. There was justice in the appeal.
    Also I am not too keen on the tone of the beak in the extract Sinc offers above.
    He seems to be creating his definitions to suit his purposes rather than applying the law.

  38. nemkat

    The National Times broke the original story
    I think it may have been debunked.
    Such a story, true or false, could never run now, since Ingham was, and is a heavily Italian town.
    One odd thing i’ve noticed about Italian towns on the East Coat, Aborigines are few and far between. Is it the same on the West Coast?

  39. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    We all know the guy won’t rehabilitate. The purpose of some people’s life could be to serve as a warning to others.

    We don’t know this. And the law is not well served when it is not applied as intended.
    There is a sheer vindictiveness that I object to as well. The law is not vindictive; nor is justice.
    It may apply retribution; but that is different to bloody-mindedness based on assumptions about the crime such as we see made above. In saying this, I have no illusions by the way about the seriousness of the crime.

  40. notafan

    The judge had intimate knowledge of these particular young women and what had happened to them.

    He considered them equilavent to ‘wartime atrocities’. There was also the very obvious hate crime element.

    He certainly didn’t suggest that the victims ‘might as well be dead’ but I have no doubt that the circumstances were so horrendous that the victims were unlikely ever to recover.

    I’ve read the book on the Khan gang rapes and my recollection is that the Skaf ones were even worse, if that is possible,, with five of the perpetrators never convicted.

  41. Roger.

    By reflection, I mean that the ceremonial law has been abrogated but not the civil or moral law.

    Law1; this is a distinction often made by Reformed theologians but in fact it is unknown to the Bible.

    As far as the Bible is concerned the Mosaic Law is of a whole, to be observed in toto by those in the old covenant. It was fulfilled/made redundant by Christ in the new covenant/testament.

    The universal moral law written on the heart by virtue of creation in God’s imafe (albeit dimmed by original sin), of which the Ten Commandments are a particularly good summary, remains as a guide to what is right.

  42. nemkat

    I don’t agree with judges redefining a crime as this one does, with some somewhat Victorian sensibilities too about women.

    Some women may get over it, many don’t. For the ones that don’t, what price is their life that has now been ruined?
    Hanging was abolished for this Crime in 1840 in the UK, 1910 in NSW.
    You appear to be downplaying the seriousness of this Crime, as if counselling and a positive attitude will set matters right.
    IMHO, this particular Crime should be punished more severely than Murder.

  43. notafan

    It is a bit perculiar, is it not, to accept that Bilal Skaf could be ‘broken’ after getting beaten up once in prison but a teenager raped every which way by 15 men over a period of six hours ought to be resilient.

  44. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I’ve read the book on the Khan gang rapes and my recollection is that the Skaf ones were even worse, if that is possible,, with five of the perpetrators never convicted.

    Tegan Wagner wrote her own story – pretty gutsy lady.

    The features of the trials of the Khan brothers was how they claimed they couldn’t get a fair trial because they were Muslims…

  45. notafan

    They were scum too Zulu.

    Tegan Wagner was and is an exceptional woman.

  46. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    That’s the gory details of just one of those attacks, LizzieB.

    She’s still alive.

    Anita Cobby got worse. So did Janine Balding. So did the woman killed tied to a tree in some awful case I read about and heaps of other cases where the woman is humiliated, injured, tortured and killed. Skaf’s intention was to hurt, demoralize, dehumanize and to humiliate but not to kill; a political act as well as a vicious one.

    He’s having plenty of time for second thoughts about that in jail.

    Re the watery bowels; it wouldn’t have taken a sentence of 55 years in the slot to produce those. Just a good application of existing sentencing practices as allowed by law would have sufficed, not going way OTT. All that does is rouse antagonisms about unfair treatment within the law and leave open the possibility of overturning by appeal, which actually reduces the impact of the law by suggesting that it is open to manipulation. A well applied system of laws requires few appeals. When the law is seen to be gunning, then the law is called into disrepute.

  47. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    During the sentencing process at the end of the Skaf trials, I expressed the view that what this gang did was worse than murder. I continue to hold that view. What the Skaf gang did was to enable multiple men to defile and degrade four young women.

    Murder is worse.

    Home invasions by African gangs physically and mentally abusing elderly people are horrific in their long-term effects on the victims too. We have laws that recommend appropriate levels of sentencing. My only suggestion is that it is wise to apply these laws as intended, neither under apply them as for African gangs, nor over-apply them for gangs of rapists.

    Apply them appropriately. For rape. For home invasion. For physical attack. For gang activities.
    If we want to seriously change the levels of sentences deemed appropriate for particular crimes, do so by parliamentary law, not by judge-led law.

    Of course I am outraged by what happened to those girls. I’m trying to look beyond that though to some broader legal principles.

  48. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Oh fuck. It’s impossible to debate this. In moderation again.

    Sentence by sentence again:

    During the sentencing process at the end of the Skaf trials, I expressed the view that what this gang did was worse than murder. I continue to hold that view. What the Skaf gang did was to enable multiple men to defile and degrade four young women.

    Murder is worse.

  49. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    next sentence:

    Home invasions by African gangs physically and mentally abusing elderly people are horrific in their long-term effects on the victims too. We have laws that recommend appropriate levels of sentencing. My only suggestion is that it is wise to apply these laws as intended, neither under-apply them as for African gangs, nor over-apply them for gangs of rapists.

  50. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I give up. A perfectly normal sentence is in moderation.

  51. Adam d

    I wonder how considered and reasonable you will be Lizzie if these monsters commit a crime to someone you love upon leaving prison.

    How a country gets in a position where the political class completely ignore the people they represent is beyond me. A vote on increasing sentencing for serious crimes, reducing immigration and avoiding paying the highest power on the planet would be revealing to say the least but no politicians touch these issues.

  52. Infidel Tiger

    Being a judge should be the easiest job on earth. All you have to do is make sure your sentencing reflects the views of the community.

    55 years was way too lenient.

  53. notafan

    If you utterly destroy someone, ensure that the rest of their lives are a living nightmare then I could see how someone could describe that as worse than murder.

    The dead women are now free from suffering, that cannot be said of the Skaf victims.

    I think most of us can envision circumstances where a victim might be better off dead.

    I suppose that depends on your world view.

  54. Roger.

    Just a good application of existing sentencing practices as allowed by law would have sufficed, not going way OTT.

    For the term of his natural life would have sufficed to satisfy justice and protect the community in this instance. As it is an unrepentant and unreformed rapist will be back on the streets in his early 50s.

  55. Tracey

    Lizzie, would you hold the same view if one of those girls had been your friend, sister, niece or daughter?

    I’m not having a dig at you, just genuinely wondering.

  56. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    I suppose that depends on your world view.

    Oh, paw swipe there.

    I’d rather be alive than dead. That’s my world view. I enjoy living and am not sour about it.

    How a country gets in a position where the political class completely ignore the people they represent is beyond me. A vote on increasing sentencing for serious crimes

    Actually, I have been attempting to post this view. I am very against judge-made law.
    Parliaments should make laws and set penalties, within a range to be used by judges.

  57. Roger.

    For the term of his natural life would have sufficed to satisfy justice and protect the community in this instance. As it is an unrepentant and unreformed r_pist will be back on the streets in his early 50s.

  58. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Lizzie, would you hold the same view if one of those girls had been your friend, sister, niece or daughter?

    Yes. Thirty years would have done me fine rather than fifty-five.

    I’d be concentrating on making my rellie or friend get better.

  59. Roger.

    Yes. Thirty years would have done me fine rather than fifty-five.

    So you’d be happy with an individual known to indulge in revenge fantasies being released while he still had the physical and mental capacity to carry them out in reality? Not to mention the implications of releasing an unreformed r_pist back into the community.

    Sorry, but the reductions in Skaf’s sentence by the Appeals courts were a sentencing failure.

  60. notafan

    There was no paw swipe there, whatever that means.

    Im just pointing out that if you cannot see death as a release from suffering with something better on offer afterwards you might not see that there may be circumstances where an act is ‘worse than murder’.

    You know what I really think?

    I think you think that a man, despite being fully across the entire circumstances of these attacks, to have heard every bit of evidence, to know the victims personally, is less able to understand the effect on the victims than you because he is a man and you are a woman despite you have having no particular knowledge of these particular rapes.

    Incidentally, there is no evidence here of ‘judge made law’

    Each charge was given an appropriate sentence, he did not, however, choose to make them all concurrent.

  61. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Rape is not murder. Lives may be ‘ruined’, to a lesser or greater extent (which is always debatable), and strong messages should be sent about the sorts of things Skaf did, even though they may once have been fairly commonplace in our own culture, but the penalty of 55 years is far more than is given for some of the most horrific murders. Sentencing should be proportionate and one might argue that 55 years was not that.

    A lot of the time here they give sentences out to be served concurrently, never understood this. skaf seems to have got his consecutively like he should have.

  62. notafan

    I agree Roger.

    And sometimes the victim doesn’t get better.

  63. notafan

    Incidentally, horrific murderers tend to get life sentences, which are about as long as you can get.

  64. nemkat

    I’d be concentrating on making my rellie or friend get better.

    How does that work in real life?
    Pretend it never happened?
    Toughen up, worse things have happened at sea?
    Ring Julia Gillard, get a scrip for AntiDepressants?
    Read The Power of Positive Thinking?
    Become a Lesbian?

  65. None

    Ultimately a new trial of this matter was heard before an Acting Judge of the Supreme Court. I do not know why the trial was taken to the Supreme Court. Both men were again convicted and sentences of imprisonment were imposed.

    That’s a very scary sentence . A judge doesn’t know why a case was re heard in the supreme court?
    Rape is as bad as murder. It is a violation that goes beyond the physical. It is a life sentence on the victim. It is impossible for anyone other than a victim to understand. It marrs your soul. Rapists like Skaf should simply be taken out and shot.

  66. Tracey

    Thanks for answering, Lizzie. We’ll have to agree to disagree. I can’t imagine anything being of much comfort to those girls other than the knowledge that the animals who preyed on them would not be released at an age where they could potentially commit the same or similar crimes again.

  67. None

    Most of the animals have never been arrested or brought to trial.

  68. Excessive though it may be seen to some, given the nature & scale of his offences there would be quite a struggle to find someone who does not consider Skaf’s sentence to have been fair. (Excepting his family, natch)
    The impact of “Fifty-Five Years” is far stronger a deterrent than “Thirty Years”.
    Yes, the shock value of the words “Fifty Five Years” would have loosened more Lebanese bowels than would a “normal” sentence.

    I’ve zilch sympathy for Skaf. He can sob his eyes out in jail every night for Fifty Five years and I won’t lose one second of sleep.

  69. Favourite part of Zulu’s link:

    ‘I rape prison’s officer’s wives,’ read Skaf’s graffiti, which was scrawled in black texta across the wall.
    …. ‘What are you going to do?’ Skaf shouted back. ‘Nothing. That’s what!’
    The guard smiled. Then —
    Whack! ..Crack!..Splat!
    The guard picked up the 22-year-old and threw him into the concrete wall.
    ‘Then I grabbed his head,’ recounted the guard. ‘And I used his face to clean off the texta.’

  70. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Did I hear that some of Skaf’s associates were not apprehended or convicted?
    Surely there is no comfort in that. I’d be more concerned about that.
    Thirty years is a long time for Skaf to keep having those second thoughts.

    How does that work in real life?
    Pretend it never happened?

    Of course not. Miseries come in all shapes and sizes and types.
    Some you never get over. Shall we count the ways?
    Life doesn’t owe you anything, not even peace of mind.
    Learn that and you are half way back at least.
    Not many people are keen to get their reward in heaven early, Notafan.
    Not just yet, life itself suggests, as St. Augustine said about his chastity. 😉

    Life sentences? Some of those work out as little as twenty years.

    Anyway, I’m truly done on this now. Asked Da Hairy Ape what he thought about 55 years.
    I don’t t’ink I lose any sleep about dat, he says mildly.
    But he agrees it may not have been a good use of the judge’s powers to run his sentences sequentially.

    Just look at the quotes from the book though, guys. Quite apart from the Skaf case.
    This is a judge with an SJW approach to ‘delicate females’.
    Don’t expect her general demeanor and physical signals to mean you’re in.
    She has to explicitly say ‘yes’ and you’d better sign a contact to ensure you’re safe.
    That’s what first got my hackles up – quite aside from the ‘worse than murder’ stuff.

  71. I’d be concentrating on making my rellie or friend get better.

    Over a 30 year period your best intentions will slowly wither.
    When the rapist gets out, your rellie or friend will be traumatised again.
    She will relive the horror most of us can only guess at.

    So…55 years for horrific rape and death for murder.

  72. Motelier

    I can see I am on the “appealed senrence is too light” side.

    I have no time for rapists. To use sex as a terror weapon in a theatre of war has been proven to be a crime against humanity.

    That the Skaf brothers and their associates are finding that humanity ( yes Joyce, even those in prisons know when a line has been crossed) takes a dim view of actions is a good thing.

    I would have surgically castrated the scumbags under a local anesthetic in front of each one of their associates, then sent them back to their community.

  73. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    As I said, we can see from Zulu’s link that Skaf is getting broken.
    55 years obviously sent him right round the bend.
    So I’m glad it got reduced. That plus a years of having his agro returned might lead him to what novelist Amor Towles so appropriately called, (with reference to a guy sent to the gulags for a stupid outburst), the Realm of Second Thoughts. I have a rellie who is still railing against his imprisonment.

    You’re a slow learner, I have to tell him.

  74. Deplorable

    “In March 1985 Farquhar was convicted of attempting to pervert the course of justice and sentenced to four years imprisonment. Even before this conviction his career was being viewed through the prism of an escalating corruption debate. In 1984 the Age had published front-page stories based on transcripts of illegal police surveillance tapes; these revealed connections between criminals, police, politicians, and the judiciary. Farquhar was mentioned in the transcripts. In this climate his liberal attitudes to punishment and rehabilitation were discounted or discredited. His judgments were scrutinised and some appeared decidedly questionable as attention focused on matters that had been excluded from the Street royal commission because of its narrow terms of reference. In 1979, for example, Farquhar had decided a drug importation case, which should have gone to a higher court, but came before him because the police considerably reduced the value of the drugs. He gave the defendants, Roy Cessna and Tim Milner, light penalties, which contradicted his stated approach of leniency for drug users and stringency for drug traffickers. The Cessna-Milner case raised questions about Farquhar’s relationships with other figures who had been featured in the Age, especially the defendants’ solicitor, Morgan Ryan. Certainly Farquhar’s successor, Clarrie Briese, became convinced that Farquhar had been implicated in corrupt networks of influence.”

    Now why do we allow judges any leeway in sentencing?

  75. Motelier

    Bugger, my comment ended in moderation.

  76. Motelier

    one sentence at a time then

  77. Motelier

    I can see I am on the “appealed sentence is too light” side.

  78. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    There was no paw swipe there, whatever that means.

    Notafan, I have considerable respect for you, but you can be very catty at times to those who have no religion. We are not all so blessed, best you accept that.

  79. Motelier

    I have no time for rapists. To use sex as a terror weapon in a theatre of war has been proven to be a crime against humanity.

  80. Motelier

    I have no time for rapists.

  81. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    hahaha. Hairy says absolutely we shall not hold up dinner for the Laurie Farquahar case.
    He even know what that refers to whereas I don’t. 🙂

  82. Motelier

    This moderation thing is really annoying

  83. None

    Mine ended in moderation too, Motrlier. Just consider instant capital punishment is the only appropriate response fo the likes of the prison wall wipe.

  84. Motelier

    I can see I am on the “appealed senrence is too light” side.

    I have no time for [email protected] To use sex as a terror weapon in a theatre of war has been proven to be a crime against humanity.

    That the Skaf brothers and their associates are finding that humanity ( yes Joyce, even those in prisons know when a line has been crossed) takes a dim view of actions is a good thing.

    I would have surgically castrated the scumbags under a local anesthetic in front of each one of their associates, then sent them back to their community.

  85. Motelier

    I can see I am on the “appealed sentence is too light” side.

    I have no time for the members of the Skaf brothers gang. To use sex as a terror weapon in a theatre of war has been proven to be a crime against humanity.

    That the Skaf brothers and their associates are finding that humanity ( yes Joyce, even those in prisons know when a line has been crossed) takes a dim view of actions is a good thing.

    I would have surgically castrated the scumbags under a local anesthetic in front of each one of their associates, then sent them back to their community.

  86. Motelier

    Got it through with a bit of modification.

  87. Motelier

    Acording to the rules of moderation, r a p i s t s must not be used.

    Go figure.

  88. nemkat

    So, you’re a torturer, with SJW tendencies, Motelier.
    Colour me unsurprised.

  89. notafan

    You can subjectivity know my intention, you mind reader you.

    I’d call that projection.

  90. nemkat

    Why not just obey the rules of the Site, motelier, instead of being a perennial smartarse?

  91. I’ll take Mote’s advice and try to get my last comment out of moderation.

    I’d be concentrating on making my rellie or friend get better.

    Over a 30 year period your best intentions will slowly wither.
    When the r a p i s t gets out, your rellie or friend will be traumatised again.
    She will relive the horror most of us can only guess at.

    So…55 years for horrific rape and death for murder.

  92. Motelier

    nemkat,
    IMHO you can fvck off.

    Scumbags loose rights when they commit a crime. The punishment should be a deterant.

  93. notafan

    The goal posts just keep changing

    Yes yes life sentences get varying non parole periods.

    I suppose twenty years would be for those ‘non horrendous’ murders.

    So did Skaf, his was forty years.
    How can you know it was the length of the sentence that broke him?

    Or that he is in fact broken?

    This article doesn’t suggest broken.

    Incidentally the Daily Telegraph described them as ‘the most unspeakable crimes ever committed in Australia’.

    actually he seems to be quite unbroken, unrepentant and to represent a continuous danger to young women should he be released.

  94. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    The judge, Michael Finnane told the Daily Telegraph he had initially calculated a sentence of 77 years but reduced it when he realised it was “too extreme”.

    From the link by notafan. 77 years would have made Skaf’s eyes water.

  95. notafan

    Orginal non parole period would have potentially seen Skaf out when he was in his very early sixties.

    Very much still a danger to his victims and the gen pop.

    Under the reduced sentence he will be eligible in 2033 when he is 52.

    Yeah!

  96. Delta A

    He puts forward a view of rape which is quite close to saying that a woman cannot recover and that it is so bad that she might as well be dead.

    For many women, that would be the case, especially those who put a high value on chastity or sexual fidelity. Frankly, I’m astonished that any woman can’t understand that, but I guess that’s the way things are in these ‘liberated’ days.

  97. nemkat

    Life means 15 years in Qld [for men], 18 years in NSW. That’s if you don’t play up, or are murdered/suicided.
    A paroled Lifer is on Parole for the rest of his life, and must report, though NSW don’t issue Warrants to extract recalcitrant Lifers from other States.
    Which can make cross border towns dangerous places.
    Sometimes Life means Life for dangerous psychopaths.
    Qld will never release Duncan [Alex] Carstens, and a few others.

  98. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Life means 15 years in Qld [for men], 18 years in NSW. That’s if you don’t play up, or are murdered/suicided.

    It’s within my lifetime that hanging was abolished in Western Australia. The assurance was that “life will mean life – the only way the prisoner will ever be released is in a box, or too old and frail to ever re-offend.” Since then, there has been one case of someone sentenced to hang, been reprieved, released on parole,and went on to commit another murder. IIRC, there have been two others, one in Queensland.

  99. notafan

    Delta A

    There is that and there is also the specific circumstances of these particular rapes, which the judge described as being ‘similar to war atrocities’ and the Tele as’ the most atrocious crime ever committed in Australia’

    I cannot even begin to imagine what those 14 men did to those girls during the hours they held them captive.

  100. nemkat

    Te last hanging in Qld was 1913, abolished 1922 by the Theodore ALP Government.
    There was an Aboriginal bloke sentenced and commuted in NSW in the late 30s, released many years later, he murdered a woman on a farm outside Goondiwindi in the 80s.
    The other one was in the Sunday Telegraph about 10 years ago: a teenager was sentenced and commuted for murdering his girlfriend and her father with an axe in 1948.. Released in 1970, he started a new life, his girlfriends mother did some research, and the axe came out again.
    Some people have short fuses, push their buttons and it’s all over
    Psychopaths and murderous Morons shouldn’t be released.

  101. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Te last hanging in Qld was 1913, abolished 1922 by the Theodore ALP Government.

    Thanks for that. I know that, in one of those cases, a retired detective rang his colleagues, and said “I worked on a similar case back when I was in the job, but he got “life.”.” The cops found that the killer had been released….

  102. Confused Old Misfit

    I cannot think of a good reason to preserve the life of a creature such as Scarf.

  103. Confused Old Misfit

    Auto correct is an ass! SKAF FFS!

  104. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I cannot think of a good reason to preserve the life of a creature such as Scarf.

    I’d go further. I’d serve on the firing party that shot him at dawn, and go on to eat a hearty breakfast.

  105. BorisG

    I heard that Bilal Skaf got a well-deserved bashing in prison.

    Condone taking the law in your own hands.

  106. BorisG

    I’d serve on the firing party that shot him at dawn, and go on to eat a hearty breakfast.

    would be good. that way the scum will be gone while you will spend the rest of your life in prison.

  107. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    I heard that Bilal Skaf got a well-deserved bashing in prison.

    Condone taking the law in your own hands.

    If you don’t want to go to prison, with all that that entails, don’t break the law in the first place.

  108. None

    Shorter Lixzie to raped women: suck it up, princesses.

  109. C.L.

    We all know the guy won’t rehabilitate.

    We don’t know that at all.
    Nobody is beyond redemption. Nobody is excluded from the treasury of Our Lord’s graces.

  110. Infidel Tiger

    We don’t know that at all.
    Nobody is beyond redemption. Nobody is excluded from the treasury of Our Lord’s grace

    They can have their redemption in heaven. The facts and figures show that for almost all criminals they will never ever change.

  111. C.L.

    I didn’t say he should be released. I said he wasn’t beyond redemption.

  112. BorisG

    We don’t know that at all.
    Nobody is beyond redemption. Nobody is excluded from the treasury of Our Lord’s graces.

    I wanted to say this but it is better said by a real Christian.

    The facts and figures show that for almost all criminals they will never ever change.

    the word amost is crucial here.

    Death penalty and lynchings are not Christian.

  113. Infidel Tiger

    Death penalty and lynchings are not Christian.

    Read a bible fool.

  114. BorisG

    I think a recall option against judges (or whole courts) should be included in the constitution.

    Independency of judiciary is a cornerstone of a democratic society. Judges should be completely free in their decisions and not subject to public opinion. any suggestion of recall etc. will ruin this independence and lead to mob rule.

  115. None

    “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.”

  116. Is 30 years long enough?
    I’m almost 60. I had an experience 30 years ago that I remember as if it was yesterday.
    When this animal piece of $hit gets out, his victims will remember the events of 30 years ago like it was yesterday. That has to be like living the ordeal all over again.
    Where is the justice in that?

    Murder is not always worse than rape. A person can commit murder in a fit of rage, almost like an out of body experience. That person may be quite repentant and might even be internally punishing himself on a daily basis.
    But to torture somebody, hour after hour, scream after scream and to get sexual gratification from it indicates a level of evil that is not present in the murderer who commits the crime in a fit of rage.

    I don’t think I’d be alone in hoping that somehow, some way, this animal meets his maker before the 30 years are up.

  117. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From notafan at 9:02 pm:

    “…
    How can you know it was the length of the sentence that broke him?

    Or that he is in fact broken?

    This article doesn’t suggest broken. …

    actually he seems to be quite unbroken, unrepentant and to represent a continuous danger to young women should he be released.

    I came to the same conclusion after reading the article and a few other pieces recounting the touch up he earned from both the guards and the prisoners at the Malabar Hilton.

    Further, he has been at Goulburn mosque for some years and it is reasonable to assume the other swarthy mackerels from the medieval death cult running the joint would afford him protection against the infidel no matter what. One suspects the swagger will have returned.

  118. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    He puts forward a view of rape which is quite close to saying that a woman cannot recover and that it is so bad that she might as well be dead.
    For many women, that would be the case, especially those who put a high value on chastity or sexual fidelity. Frankly, I’m astonished that any woman can’t understand that, but I guess that’s the way things are in these ‘liberated’ days.

    You are being deliberately obtuse here, Delta, and unfairly personal, about what I was pointing out concerning this judge’s stated views. So are those who say I condone rape, or regard it as insignificant for those woman who are raped. Re-visit what I have actually said.

    I simply believe that to lose your life is worse than to live with it severely marred. I have not suggested anything but a heavy sentence for rapists, nor that victims should be disparaged or denied proper justice. I have cautioned that this judge’s views, if applied to cases not so absolutely clear cut as this one, could also be used to deny justice to men unfairly accused of rape in these days of hashtag ‘me too’. This caution, as is abundantly clear, has nothing whatsoever to do with the Scaf case. I also believe that the laws should be made by Parliament and adhered to by judges; thus I think that this judge went too far in his sequential sentencing rather than coterminous sentencing. Similarly, I have pointed out that some judges err in the other direction, and are far too weak on many crimes that leave behind shattered victims.

    CL at least is being a consistent Christian. He believes redemption is always possible without being accused of weakness for that belief. Not so though for the way in which I am being accused in this appalling pile on of ‘get Lizzie’.

    I believe that victims too can do better than hate for the rest of their lives. The Christian Saints prove this, do they not?

    Many of you remind me of the precious princess who stormed off at a party recently when I mentioned there might be a case for the Adani mine. Closed minds are very dangerous things, imho. I accept the anger that this case arouses, but hitting out at me in the way that has happened here is a misplacement of it. If Sinc had not expected some discussion of the pros and cons of the judgement and its appeal why bother to put up an echo chamber about it?

  119. Gbees

    In Australia, courts do not impose sentences that are so extreme they could go beyond the life of the offender.”

    That’s a shame. I’m all for sentences like are dished out in the US sometimes. e.g. life plus 99 years.

    Makes certain the bastards don’t ever get out.

  120. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    My further comment is ‘awaiting moderation’. Sinc seems to have released all previous moderated comments; mine and those of others, so I will leave it at that and hope it is eventually released.

    The level of moderation on the Cat is getting difficult for many commenters when there seems to be no consistency to it. An explanation of what is going on would be very welcome.

  121. Crossie

    Re the watery bowels; it wouldn’t have taken a sentence of 55 years in the slot to produce those. Just a good application of existing sentencing practices as allowed by law would have sufficed, not going way OTT. All that does is rouse antagonisms about unfair treatment within the law and leave open the possibility of overturning by appeal,

    We all know how the law works. Had he originally received a 30 year sentence on appeal that would have been reduced to 20 or even 15 years. They would have been laughing.

  122. win

    Skaf and mates serve the sentence and cry every night . Is it possible the learned Judge has sent an unspoken message to Imams around the country? It was Lindy Chamberlain who said that the people in the gaols are not the true criminals.

  123. Robbo

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare
    #2651881, posted on March 4, 2018 at 7:30 pm
    I give up. A perfectly normal sentence is in moderation.

    No you didn’t give up Lizzie. More’s the pity.

  124. Deplorable

    hahaha. Hairy says absolutely we shall not hold up dinner for the Laurie Farquahar case.
    He even know what that refers to whereas I don’t. 🙂


    Sentences should be decided by the community expectation through legislation imposed upon judges with little wriggle room. If you read up the Farquhar case you will understand the judiciary cannot always be trusted . 55 years was about right and most right thinking individuals would agree to removing scum until they are not capable of inflicting any further damage. Jill Meagher in Melbourne would still be alive if judges and politicians did their jobs properly and stopped listening to SJW who are soft on criminals.

  125. stackja

    Another judge, another crime, another time, Bradley, Stephen Leslie (1926–1968) He was extradited on 18 November, convicted of murder on 29 March 1961 and sentenced to life imprisonment, a sentence that was upheld on appeal. Then NSW elected Wran.

  126. Roger.

    Death penalty…not Christian.

    On the contrary, the prospect of imminent death can focus the mind greatly on the need for repentance.

    Besides which, Romans 13:4:
    For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

  127. Deplorable

    Independency of judiciary is a cornerstone of a democratic society. Judges should be completely free in their decisions and not subject to public opinion. any suggestion of recall etc. will ruin this independence and lead to mob rule.
    The law is owned by the citizens not a few pompous political appointments whose appointment for life allows them to inflict their ideologies be it political religious or criminal based. The judiciary need proper and transparent oversight and term limits.

  128. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    So I should just shut up, Robbo, because you disagree with me?

    I was referring to the moderation issue. But you know that, didn’t you? You just wanted to snark. When myself final comment comes out of moderation then I do give up. Had my say then.

  129. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    On my phone waiting for dance class. Wretched auto correct added something to the above..

  130. Judges should be completely free in their decisions and not subject to public opinion

    Sounds like the script from Judge John Deed.

  131. Mundi

    If you want to get even more wound up:

    Bilal Skaf got a plump public service job at age 15, despite already having extensive criminal record, because his daddy knew the right people.

    It was the wealth he got from this “job” that allowed him to run his little gang of rapists.

  132. Tator

    Lizzy Beare,
    Just a clarification for you. Here in SA we have mandatory life sentences for Murder, minimum parole is 20 years. Just for one murder.
    Skaf was convicted on 16 individual counts of rape, unlawful detention and attempt to pervert the cause of Justice. Not just one rape.
    For a legitimate comparison, the lead Snowtown murderers got life without parole for 11 murders.
    Skaf got 55 years for 16 counts as a cumulative sentence, or basically just under 3 1/2 years per count. Now that puts it back in perspective if you look at it that way. Plus after reading the sentencing remarks by the judge. It could have been more as he made several sentences concurrent. Not much in real terms considering that currently aggravated sexual assault has a max sentence of 20 years, unlawful detention 7 years and Pervert the cause of justice 7 years and acts of indecency 2 years, so 3.5 year for each count is a fair discount considering the aggravating factors involved.
    So 16 counts with 4 victims is not just an ordinary everyday sentencing, considering he disputed the facts and actively attempted to procure false evidence to benefit his trial and showed zero remorse. What would have been a suitable sentence for such an serial offender with multiple offences with different victims.
    One thing to note is that 2 of his co-offenders got head sentences of 23 years for Hajeid and 18 years for Chami and that was for just participating, not organising.
    Sentencing Remarks

  133. max

    The modern prison system is the product of the perverse logic of
    humanism.

    “Serving time” in prison is today preposterously referred to as
    “paying one’s debt to society.” In fact, the reverse is true: society (taxpayers)
    must finance the criminal’s period of incarceration.
    Taxpayers and criminals alike pay a debt to the State, for it is the State’s
    bureaucratic functionaries who become the recipients of the tax
    money.
    The State, as the operational god of this age, receives its restitution
    payment.
    But in today’s humanistic theocracy, victims receive
    nothing except subpoenas to testify in court and bills from the
    tax collector.

    Today, the sanctions are themselves
    criminal: they penalize the victims a second time (tax bills for
    prisons). The victims are robbed twice. They are threatened with violence
    if they refuse to pay: first by the robber, then by the tax collector.

    Whereas men used to be flogged in public or put in the stocks for a few days,
    we now put them in hidden jails that are filled with a professional criminal class.
    This impersonalism of punishment
    has been paralleled by a steady bureaucratization and institutionalization of the
    penal system. The guards in prisons tend to become as impersonal and callous as
    their prisoners.
    Bukovsky writes of Soviet prisons: “There’s no real difference between
    the criminals and their guards. Except for the uniforms. The slang is the
    same, the manners, concepts, psychology. It’s all the same criminal world, all joined
    by an unbreakable chain.”

  134. notafan

    Not mansplaining for actual facts are you Tator?

    Shame on you!

  135. nilk

    Mine is not a popular view here, but one that I think tempers justice with a certain amount of mercy.

    He has shown no remorse, he deserves no mercy, Lizzie. Whining like a little bitch because he didn’t get the adulation as a lion of allah he felt he deserved is not remorse.

  136. Megan

    So. This piece of revolting humanity has served 15 years to date. Halfway to getting out.
    I much prefer his original non-concurrent sentence with another 12 years of reflection and confinement before he turns the corner towards getting out and living amongst us once more.
    Concurrent sentencing is supermarket discounting. Commit one rape, get the following 13 free.

  137. notafan

    Hear hear Nilk and Megan

    The condensation drips in the world of the fact free.

    I read the sentencing remarks, what an entitled lying remorseless scumbag.

  138. Bob in Castlemaine

    We could use a few like him right now here in the Peoples Democratic Republic of Victoria!

  139. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    If you read up the Farquhar case you will understand the judiciary cannot always be trusted

    I discussed the Farquhar case with my husband (Hairy) over dinner last night. He has a good knowledge of it. It simply reinforces my position that we need to keep an eye on our judiciary and the extent to which they are applying the law to suit community standards, whether too lax or too harsh. Also, if we want to redefinine a crime as ‘worse’ than murder, let Parliament do that, not a judge.

    Interestingly, I have just come back from coffee with seven women friends, by no means ‘leftie luvvies’ and most of them mothers of daughters, as I am too. I mentioned briefly that I was in a discussion re the Scaf case, and all felt that the 55 years for rape was inappropriate and were pleased to hear it had been changed upon appeal. There was some discussion of the neglect of young girls by some parents, the lack of caution some young girls had and still have about casually getting into cars with men, and the fact that an ‘oral sex’ culture was very prevalent at the time in some high schools and teenage groups; in other words, oral sex was being treated and engaged in by both young girls and boys as casually as kissing might have been in past times (well-attested, although quickly denied if particular teens were challenged about it).

    A sign of a very sick culture, imho and that of my friends today. I’ll just leave that one here to rest, as we reflect upon the left’s cultural acceptance of the oral sexual activities of an American President in the Oval Office, and think too on the latest Hollywood scandals, where once outed, those ‘going along’ with such performances now claim they were forced (and maybe they were).

    What was done to the young women in the Scaf case was still illegal, immoral and criminal and I condemn it utterly. I condemn too the young male’s culture that permitted teenage males to think requiring sexual activities forced with brutal behavior was acceptable; a culture that permitted them to meld their sexual desires with their own sense of entitlement and dislike of mainstream Australia. It is very similar to what happened in the UK in Rotterham.

    However, I still think in his sentencing the presiding judge exceeded his powers substantially and that some of his comments and attitudes concerning rape will not necessarily further the case for justice in future rape cases. Rape is not murder and the case for coterminous sentencing is well-established by precedent.

    It seems too, let us not forget, that his peers in the judiciary also felt that too, by overturning his decision.

  140. cohenite

    Nobody is beyond redemption. Nobody is excluded from the treasury of Our Lord’s graces.

    Muslims are.

  141. notafan

    and all felt that the 55 years for rape was inappropriate and were pleased to hear it had been changed upon appeal

    Just wow that your Sydney friends are in such a small bubble that this is the first time they have heard of the decision on appeal and without any first hand information on the nature of the crimes or the reasons behind any of the sentence changes all chimed in over coffee! and agreed with you and therefore you are right.

    Not to mention the implied victim blaming and not reallying, because oral sex (with a actual gun to your head) was as normal as kissing in 2000 (unbelievable) (not to mention that at least some of the girls were also vaginally assaulted ) and really it’s the parents fault for not having their year twelve daughters on a leash, (or that a 16 year old should not get in a car with someone she thought was a friend).

    I mean tsk tsk and tsk

    I am all for young women being careful but there is a line to be drawn when it comes to who is actually responsible for a crime being committed and it is never the victim.

    And still misunderstanding that Finnane was not making new law but opining that that particular series of rapes is so appalling and damaging to the victims that in some way it is worse than murder. Finnane was as free to determine the totality of the sentence as the next judge, he was not making law but took a more severe view of the crimes than the appeal judges, and that may well be because he was the only ones to hear the victim’s testimony first hand.

    “presiding judge exceeded his powers substantially ” no he didn’t, he placed greater weight on certain elements of the crimes than did the appeal judges, and there was actually an error in one element of the sentence,

    From a later appeal

    Removing Bilal Skaf’s Gosling Park sentences from the total sentences handed down by the trial Judge means the Court must adjust the total sentence he is currently to serve pending a new trial. If the new trial ensues and results in convictions, the sentencing judge will be free to impose a sentence that is wholly or partly concurrent with and/or cumulative upon the Court of Criminal Appeal’s revised total sentence. It is important to note that the Court of Criminal Appeal’s revised sentence does not mean that Bilal Skaf has had his sentence for the convictions relating to events at Northcote Park or Bankstown and Chullora reduced. Appeals against these sentences have not yet been heard by the Court.

    And from the 2008 decision, an element that could have have been taken into account by Finnane

    In the event of re-sentence, we received a body of additional material in an affidavit by the appellant and two affidavits by his solicitor, to which were annexed a psychiatric report and copies of a number of Department of Corrective Services documents. This was supplemented by two brief affidavits by a senior officer at Goulburn Correctional Centre, where the appellant has been held, relied upon by the Crown. It is unnecessary to recite that material in any detail. It is sufficient to say that it discloses that the appellant remains on protection and continues to be classified as an extremely high-risk inmate. That is likely to remain the case in the short to medium term. His conditions of custody are attended by a high level of security, and they limit or impose restrictions upon his access to work, education, welfare facilities, visits, sport and fitness training, and religious observance. It is appropriate to have regard to this material in determining the sentences this Court should impose.

    The appeals judges made some comparisons to other rape cases and concluded that these were not the very worst, not that Finnane had exceeded his power.

  142. Roger.

    It seems too, let us not forget, that his peers in the judiciary also felt that too, by overturning his decision.

    Yes, Finanne is quite exceptional; his peers less so, regrettably.

  143. notafan

    I get the impression Roger that Finnane was particularly appalled by the acting in concert of so many men, by the men performing sex acts on the girls in front of each other, the calling up like minded people and rendezvousing.

    At least they didn’t urinate on them (mentioned in the these were much worser cases.)

  144. Roger.

    I get the impression Roger that Finnane was particularly appalled by the acting in concert of so many men, by the men performing sex acts on the girls in front of each other, the calling up like minded people and rendezvousing.

    And he was quite right, nota.

    ‘Aggravated sexual assault in company’ is the charge and it attracts a life penalty in NSW.

    It is recognised as a more grievous crime than sexual assault or aggravated sexual assault.

    In Skaf’s case, given his lack of remorse and the likelihood of re-offending, life should mean life, or at least until he is very old.

    Anything less endangers the community.

  145. notafan

    Well it doesn’t seem likely that he will be in prison as long as he should be.

    There was reference to another offence that the jury couldn’t make it’s mind up about, so he got away with it.

    At least the law is on the books.

    Iirc they think there were other victims who did not report the attacks.

    That might explain the brazenness.

    Probably not the first time mohammed had delivered a victim either.

    I know his mum thinks he has done nothing wrong.

  146. Roger.

    I know his mum thinks he has done nothing wrong.

    Father too?

    A foreign mentality.

  147. notafan

    Incidentally the prisoner is utter scum and has had to be permanently in protective custody as the reason for a reduction in sentence creates a nice precedent.

  148. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/a-mothers-tale-of-heartache-20130511-2jeiq.html

    What the parents think – health warning – your blood pressure will rise.

  149. nemkat

    “ In Australia, courts do not impose sentences that are so extreme they could go beyond the life of the offender.”

    Not so.
    From Zulu’s Skaf link earlier, a man named Michael Kanaan is serving 3 Life Sentences plus 50 years, with no possibility of parole, for 3 Murders.
    Given that the Murders were connected to the drug trade, and the cops shot him through the spine, he might be entitled to feel miffed that Monsieur Skaf only got 55 years, reduced to 28 on Appeal.

  150. duncanm

    I mentioned briefly that I was in a discussion re the Scaf case, and all felt that the 55 years for rape was inappropriate and were pleased to hear it had been changed upon appeal.

    just wow.

    How about you read the details of the cases and get back to us.

    Just one, one of the events:

    .. The four men in this other car all raped this unfortunate young girl, who was then hosed down until she was soaking wet and forced out of the car that she was in near the Catholic Club at Lidcombe. Skaf and the members of this gang clearly wanted public recognition for what they had done. By this time, she had been kidnapped and raped vaginally, orally and anally more than 40 times by 14 men.

  151. notafan

    Snap Zulu I was about to Link that

    I remember that the mother yelling that what they did wasn’t a crime (in Arabic) during the trial

    a little on one victim and the mum story

  152. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    a response to ‘a mother’s heartache’

    An interesting link, notafan, thank you.

  153. Delta A

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare would think quite differently if it were her daughter who was kidnapped and raped vaginally, orally and anally more than 40 times by 14 men.

  154. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare would think quite differently if it were her daughter who was kidnapped and raped vaginally, orally and anally more than 40 times by 14 men.

    Irrelevant.
    We are discussing legal process here, determining what happened and who was responsible, and the sentencing of one man for his part in it, and this sentencing in terms of future rape trials, not retributional emotions. Of course I would have those. What mother would not? If my daughter had been involved in some of these situations I would also blame myself for allowing her to believe that hopping into a car with young men and kissing and cuddling them, and accepting an ‘oral sex’ culture, in return for drugs, was OK.

    Don’t be completely stupid, Delta. You are generally better than this.
    Just part of the unpleasant pile on that sometimes happens on the Cat when things get twisted into personal vendettas. I hate that, absolutely hate it. Elements of the shrieking mob, ending in terror.

  155. Mick Gold Coast QLD

    From notafan on March 5, 2018 at 5:56 pm:

    ” and all felt that the 55 years for rape was inappropriate and were pleased to hear it had been changed upon appeal

    Just wow that your Sydney friends are in such a small bubble that this is the first time they have heard of the decision on appeal and without any first hand information on the nature of the crimes or the reasons behind any of the sentence changes all chimed in over coffee! and agreed with you and therefore you are right.

    Not to mention …

    And still misunderstanding that Finnane was not making new law … but took a more severe view of the crimes than the appeal judges, and that may well be because he was the only ones to hear the victim’s testimony first hand.

    “presiding judge exceeded his powers substantially ” no he didn’t, … and there was actually an error in one element of the sentence,

    From a later appeal

    Removing Bilal Skaf’s Gosling Park sentences from the total sentences handed down by the trial Judge means the Court must adjust the total sentence he is currently to serve pending a new trial. If the new trial ensues and results in convictions, the sentencing judge will be free to impose a sentence that is wholly or partly concurrent with and/or cumulative upon the Court of Criminal Appeal’s revised total sentence. It is important to note that …

    And from the 2008 decision, an element that could have have been taken into account by Finnane

    In the event of re-sentence, we received a body of additional material in an affidavit by the appellant and two affidavits by his solicitor, to which were annexed a psychiatric report and copies of a number of Department of Corrective Services documents. This was supplemented by … It is appropriate to have regard to this material in determining the sentences this Court should impose.

    The appeals judges made some comparisons to other rape cases and concluded that these were not the very worst, not that Finnane had exceeded his power.”

    You’ve covered some of the extraordinary complexities well, notafan.

    One must chase down and read the whole of the judgement or reasons for decision on appeal, and read it again and read it a third time, then do the same with the subordinate judgement, to properly understand the what and the why. It is too demanding for your average observer.

    The media never does it for its readers/listeners (I’ll warrant the kiddie reporters they allocate to the court reports don’t know how to find the law reports which are hidden in plain view) but, like your amateur experts, it is invariably out of the box like One the Red with its opinion on why the judge was ever so right / terribly wrong.

    I followed this matter in the courts on and off while it was topical and it is alarming reading here how much of the accurate detail has now been forgotten, disappearing like smoke in the years since.

  156. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    your Sydney friends are in such a small bubble that this is the first time they have heard of the decision on appeal

    You specialize in denigration, don’t you Notafan?

    These women do not live in a ‘bubble’. Two are lawyers. There were seven there. I made eight. Only three had not heard of the appeal. All recalled the cases and the majority had read details of them, some recalling Miranda Divine’s piece, and the general tenre of discussions at the time and since. All thought the 55 year sentence was counter-productive and excessive without me leading them into that. I think they represent the thinking of many ordinary men and women, both those who have seriously addressed the issues and those who simply have a gut response about it.

    And still misunderstanding that Finnane was not making new law

    His justificatory comments show that effectively, he was.

    Plus, in your own admission:

    The appeals judges made some comparisons to other rape cases and concluded that these were not the very worst, not that Finnane had exceeded his power.

    I have read in detail the sentencing reports about what happened. They make extremely instructive reading, and not in the way that the shoot from the hip commentariat here would have us believe. It is not blaming the victims to say that both the girls and their teenage assailants were operating within cultures about which none of us can proud. Many men, unapprehended, were also involved. That does put another complexion on the sentencing of Scaf too.

    I have never denied that these rapes became more and more blatant as they continued on. Nor have I denied that severe punishment should be due for them.

    Again, pile on after pile on here. Including Mick of Gold Coast.
    One day it might surprise you what I actually do know, Mick. Hairy may be slightly older and have a longer history in political life than is apparent from what I say here. You may find you could even get on well together, reminiscing. Meanwhile, feel free to add your bit to the pile on.

    Ridiculous stuff.

  157. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Not to mention the implied victim blaming and not reallying, because oral sex (with a actual gun to your head) was as normal as kissing in 2000 (unbelievable) (not to mention that at least some of the girls were also vaginally assaulted ) and really it’s the parents fault for not having their year twelve daughters on a leash, (or that a 16 year old should not get in a car with someone she thought was a friend).

    Your ‘unbelievable’ displays your complete ignorance here, Notafan, about the teenage oral sex cult.
    You also make no mention of how many ‘friends’ young girls had who supplied them marihuana for it.
    My friends and I did discuss how we keep our daughters safe and under control. Parenting comes into it.

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