Johan Norberg – on trade and manufacturing

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118 Responses to Johan Norberg – on trade and manufacturing

  1. stackja

    Why is this one-sided on USA? All countries protect themselves.

  2. Can anyone show me a country that fully follows the ‘free trade’ mantra and is extremely wealthy (including individual wealth eg very low unemployment, high living standards etc), no trade deficits and no debt etc?

  3. Arky

    The factories are more efficient and employ less labour.
    Then why are we exporting them to LOW LABOUR COST countries.
    Do you see your fallacy?

  4. Arky

    At precisely the time when automation increases productivity is when YOU make the case for China having a competitive advantage due to cheap labour.
    Choose one argument of the other.
    You cannot use both at the same time.
    Anyway, everyone sees through this shit now.

  5. Arky

    Make your mind up: is your argument that we cannot manufacture because we don’t have a competitive advantage in labour costs.
    OR:
    It doesn’t matter if we lose factories bacause they no longer need labour.

  6. billie

    The Australian car workers are so forking dumb they need over $100M of retraining, no other industry compares. We have so much protectionism and “taxes”, call them what you will, luxury tax, duty whatever, we’re hardly in a position to call out anyone else.

    If all the overheads were removed from the auto industry, we’d probably have a vibrant industry, but unfortunately it is run by Kimmy Carr and the unions, so any wonder it is disaster area.

    Here a quesiton, why, since we don’t make cars anymore, are all the rules, laws, legislation, certifications regulations and such still in place?

  7. mh

    The factories are more efficient and employ less labour.
    Then why are we exporting them to LOW LABOUR COST countries.
    Do you see your fallacy?

    His fallacy is showing.

  8. mh

    Under the new TPP deal that was signed yesterday, Japan will reduce it’s tarriff on Australian beef imports to 19 percent within 15 years. Yay!!

  9. Arky

    The administration can already point to economic benefits from the tariffs. U.S. Steel has announced that it will reopen a plant in Granite City, Illinois that will employee 500 workers. Century Aluminum has said it will make a $100 million investment to restart an idle plant that makes military grade aluminum.

  10. Garry

    The Electrolux factory at Orange NSW closed down several years ago because of production costs. Part of the plant was moved to Asia and the rest to the USA. Power costs and labor costs at both of these places is much cheaper than Australia. It’s impossible to be competitive when the cost of electricity is 50% higher then competition countries and when Union demands see a person on an assembly line earning 400% higher wages. The Electrolux workforce was offered a compromise package but at the direction of the union refused to negotiate. Now several hundred people have no income rather than a slightly reduced income. Go figure the logic?

  11. Rob MW

    With all those expert looking books behind him you’d reckon that he’d have at least one on, in the pursuit of reality. Wonder if this expert has had an equally condescending talk to the EU about their agricultural subsidies and their job protecting tariffs ? No……..no……why……because Trump !!

  12. manalive

    Can anyone show me a country that fully follows the ‘free trade’ mantra and is extremely wealthy (including individual wealth eg very low unemployment, high living standards etc), no trade deficits …

    Heritage Foundation + WSJ Index of Economic Freedom.
    The freer the economy, generally, the wealthier the citizenry.

  13. Stimpson J. Cat

    At least he isn’t wearing a Bowtie.
    That’s something.

  14. Confused Old Misfit

    Stimpson J. Cat
    #2656120, posted on March 9, 2018 at 2:10 pm

    At least he isn’t wearing a Bowtie.
    That’s something.

    BWAAAAHAHAHAHA! (Coffee everywhere!)

  15. Fisky

    Has this guy ever manufactured or traded anything in his life?

  16. Fisky

    Norberg believes the best way to raise GDP is by closing factories while importing Muslim refugees.

  17. The claim that technology causes the most job losses misses the point. We get that.

    Once upon a time, 90% of the population was involved in agriculture and related services and industries. Nothing since has come close to that level of disruption.
    At the advent of computers, millions of young ladies were no longer needed to sit in huge typing pools or man telephone exchanges. WE GET WHAT TECHNOLOGY DOES.

    People had time to adjust. Kids living in rural communities were no longer encouraged to become harness makers or farriers etc. Their visions shifted at a pace that was manageable.
    Farm labourers moved to low skilled factory jobs, often making stuff that replaced farm workers.
    15 year old girls no longer looked forward to working as typists. They had time to adjust.

    However, since the WTO and especially since the inclusion of China, industries up and left in a comparative blink of an eye. PEOPLE WERE LEFT STRANDED.

    Tractors didn’t appear on every farm overnight, people knew they were coming. Trucks didn’t appear on every highway overnight, horses and oxen disappeared gradually.
    Chinese factories appeared overnight (in comparative terms). People just didn’t have time to adjust. They were left on the unemployment heap.
    Claims that 50 year old diesel mechanics or foundry workers could reeducate themselves into the IT industry were dishonest claims.

  18. rickw

    Chinese factories appeared overnight (in comparative terms). People just didn’t have time to adjust. They were left on the unemployment heap.

    If you want to compete against low labor cost countries, you either force a standard of living that is the same as theirs, then your labor cost will be competitive. Or you introduce tariffs at such a level as to protect your own standard of living whilst giving them an opportunity to improve theirs.

    Australian industry has been decimated for no good reason.

    I can bet that when this has gone full circle, the rich Chinese won’t be dropping their pants over importation of cheap goods made with cheap Australian labor!

  19. Paul

    The good thing about automation and robots is they don’t need OH&S, work 24/7, until they need human intervention to service and repair.
    That is until humans are replaced by robot repair machines.
    Then all a business needs is to find a human who has a job and money, who wants to buy what these machines are producing.
    /sarc

  20. Mr Black

    To an economist, the perfect state of affairs is a nation in which no one wants to be any different or better than anyone else. A billion zombies conforming to The Plan.

  21. Ubique

    So if the productivity of US manufacturing was increasing so much, how did the US find itself with so many closed factories and an $800 billion dollar annual trade deficit, nearly half of it with China?

  22. manalive

    Empirically compare and contrast.
    The top ten economies enabling trade (WEF):
    1. Singapore 2. Netherlands 3. Hong Kong 4. Luxembourg 5. Sweden 6. Finland 7. Austria 8. UK 9. Germany 10. Belgium.
    The ten most protectionist economies (WEF):
    138. Iran 137. Venezuela 136. Argentina 135.Chad 134. Pakistan 133. Brazil 132. Algeria 131.Ecuador 130. Nepal 129. Zimbabwe.
    The last time protectionist policies took hold (economic nationalism + fascism) globally in the ‘20s resulted in depression and a world war whereas the post-war GATT agreement promoted global trade and prosperity.
    Individual countries may be able to sustain protectionist policies for a time but long-term it is a one-way street and ultimately disastrous; look at what autarky did to Argentina, prior to WWI with a similar economy to Australia but with a higher higher GDP per cap, GDP per cap now ~US$10,000.

  23. The freer the economy, generally, the wealthier the citizenry.

    That doesn’t answer the question.

    Here is one list of factors listed in that link:

    Business freedom
    Trade freedom
    Monetary freedom
    Government size
    Fiscal freedom
    Property rights
    Investment freedom
    Financial freedom
    Freedom from corruption
    Labor freedom

    So which country fulfills my question as well as those 10 factors fully? It most certainly isn’t Australia.

  24. Bear Necessities

    People who support protectionist policies (i.e. tariffs) are very much like those who support socialist policies.

    People who support socialist policies say “It just hasn’t been implemented properly yet…”
    People who support protectionist policies say “It just hasn’t been implemented properly yet…”

  25. Arky

    People who support socialist policies say “It just hasn’t been implemented properly yet…”
    People who support protectionist policies say “It just hasn’t been implemented properly yet…”

    ..
    Stupidiest shit yet.
    Not any kind of argument at all.
    Whatever the question, your answer is always deindustrialisation.
    Weather hot? Get rid of industry.
    Weather cold? Too much industry.
    Factories need lots of labour? Get rid of those factories.
    Factories need less labour? What do we want factories for then?
    Want to bring up third world living standards? Give them our factories.
    Losing industry? Don’t worry about that old son: comparitive advantage, don’t you know.
    Unions causing problems? Ship their factories off overseas, that’ll teach ’em.
    Anyone might think your real agends is to get rid of industry.
    Stooge.
    .

  26. Arky

    Let me say it less pollitely:
    We have done it your way for forty years. The autistic, globalist libertarian way.
    It has got us nothing.
    Closed factories, captured institutions, broken fucked up bogan hell holes and full speed immigration from exactly the places you said would benefit.
    Fuck you.
    Time to give trade policies back to adults capable of negotiating in the real world that contains real bad actors with bad intentions.

  27. Bear Necessities

    Time to give trade policies back to adults capable of negotiating in the real world that contains real bad actors with bad intentions.

    As long as you are not one of the adults who is doing the negotiating.

  28. mundi

    If the goverment passes a carbon tax, so that the polluting manufacturing is cheaper to do in China, is it then OK to put a tarriff on the imports to offset that?

  29. Tel

    We have done it your way for forty years. The autistic, globalist libertarian way.
    It has got us nothing.

    Here you go Arky, Internet from 40 years ago. Enjoy yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotex#/media/File:Minitel1.jpg

  30. Fisky

    Protectionism is really a very minor effect on growth. It’s basically a wash. Didn’t stop the USA and Germany from becoming great powers in the late 19th Century.

    The main policies that either make or break countries are: 1) fixing the price of goods below the cost of production, 2) confiscation of private property.

    Trump’s tariffs will have fuck all net effect.

  31. Fisky

    Also, China is one of the most protectionist countries on earth, and has still managed to grow at 6-10% per year, for the past three decades.

    So the screeching about protectionism is completely out of proportion to the actual effects of protectionism on growth, which are very minor.

  32. chrisl

    One Australian worker equals 20 Chinese workers
    One Australian worker equals 55 Indian workers
    Try levelising that!
    (As told to me by Eric the chinaman who sells me stuff,cheap)

  33. Fisky

    The really weird thing is how open borders autists claim that World GDP would double if we allowed complete free immigration into the West. This is completely insane, especially when you consider that the EU’s average growth rates have DECLINED since they signed the Schengen open borders agreement.

    So there is zero evidence supporting open borders at all (and not much against protectionism either).

  34. bollux

    If China sells a car to the USA it attracts 2.5% import duty. If the USA sells a car to China, it attracts a 25% import duty. All I can say is -GO TRUMP.

  35. Arky

    how open borders autists claim

    ..
    I don’t think they are autistic.
    Jesus fucking wept look at the standard of their arguments on this page. What an embarassment. They know they have fucked it all up, just will not admit it.
    I like you Tel, so this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.
    I think there are holes in your actual brain. For fucks sake go and sort yourself out. That video you posted was no argument relevant to anything said here today.
    What you have wrought is this: government is 40% of the economy. Forty fucking percent!
    Real unemployment is in the high twenties if you stop fucking around warehousing stupid cun+s in women’s studies and vaginal knitting classes and take account of disability support rorts and all the other slimy shit our globalist friends in government have done to disguise the real situation.
    Our regions are boganised waste lands of tattooed idiots and meth addicts.
    We can’t even manufacture bacon. BACON.
    Seriously. You had your go. Fuck off and let Trump try to repair the US without your stupid commentary.
    It is too late for Oz. We will ride your dumb policies to deindustrialised oblivion.
    Well done.

  36. Arky

    And I guess after that there is little chance of Davidson posting my piece on Jordan Peterson.
    Too bad.

  37. Tel

    Tractors didn’t appear on every farm overnight, people knew they were coming. Trucks didn’t appear on every highway overnight, horses and oxen disappeared gradually.

    It might have just been a coincidence that the Great Depression happened soon after a number of the most significant tech-shock incidents in human history:
    * Vulcanized rubber (1844, Charles Goodyear)
    * Internal combustion engine (1864, Nikolaus Otto)
    * Dynamite (1867, Alfred Nobel)
    * Early electric grid rollout (1882, Thomas Edison in lower Manhattan)
    * Pneumatic Bicycle Tire (1888, John Dunlop)
    * Early ICE tractor (1892, John Froelich)
    * Powered flight (1903, Wright brothers)
    * Synthetic ammonia (1910, Haber–Bosch process).

    After a major war, grain prices were high but very rapidly came down during the 1920’s which was ruinous to farmers. I would say that’s been some of the most rapid economic transition ever. It might even be fair to say that the rise of the “Nanny State” has been for the purpose of slowing progress and preventing such a burst of discovery from ever happening again.

    But if you want a good small scale example, consider the Lancashire power loom riots of 1826, where weavers were on the edge of starvation after the industry very rapidly turned over to automation and dumped the majority of them out of work. Even though many artisan weavers owned their own equipment (or “means of production” as the socialists would say) this equipment became obsolete in the hands of its owner, as the hand weaver was priced out of the market by mass produced cloth.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-loom_riots

  38. max

    A Chinese Consumer’s Perspective on Chinese Trade Policy

    Our Chinese government continues to pursue a policy of export promotion, patting itself on the back for its trade surplus in manufactured goods with the United States. The Chinese government does so through a number of avenues, including:

    • Limiting yuan convertibility, and keeping the yuan’s value artificially low
    • Selling exports below cost and well below domestic prices (what the Americans call “dumping”) and subsidizing products for export

    It is important to note that each and every one of these government interventions subsidizes US citizens and consumers at the expense of Chinese citizens and consumers. A low yuan makes Chinese products cheap for Americans but makes imports relatively dear for Chinese. So-called “dumping” represents an even clearer direct subsidy of American consumers over their Chinese counterparts.  We Chinese send our resources, our capital, and the output of our most productive workers overseas to be enjoyed by American consumers, and what do we get in return?  A trillion dollars or so of foreign exchange surpluses that our government invests for 2% returns in US government bonds.  Yes, that’s right — not only are we subsidizing American consumers, but we are subsidizing their taxpayers by financing their government’s debt at low interest rates.

    This policy of raping the domestic market in pursuit of exports and trade surpluses was one that Japan followed in the seventies and eighties. It sacrificed its own consumers, protecting local producers in the domestic market while subsidizing exports. Japanese consumers had to live with some of the highest prices in the world, so that Americans could get some of the lowest prices on those same goods. Japanese customers endured limited product choices and a horrendously outdated retail sector that were all protected by government regulation, all in the name of creating trade surpluses. And surpluses they did create. Japan achieved massive trade surpluses with the US, and built the largest accumulation of foreign exchange (mostly dollars) in the world. And what did this get them? Decades of recession, from which the country is only now emerging, while the US economy happily continued to grow and create wealth in astonishing proportions, seemingly unaware that is was supposed to have been “defeated” by Japan.

    We at Panda Blog believe it is insane for our Chinese government to continue to chase the chimera of ever-growing foreign exchange and trade surpluses. These achieved nothing lasting for Japan and they will achieve nothing for China. In fact, the only thing that amazes us more than China’s subsidize-Americans strategy is that the Americans seem to complain about it so much. They complain about their trade deficits, which are nothing more than a reflection of their incredible wealth. They complain about the yuan exchange rate, which is set today to give discounts to Americans and price premiums to Chinese. They complain about China buying their government bonds, which does nothing more than reduce the costs of their Congress’s insane deficit spending. They even complain about dumping, which is nothing more than a direct subsidy by China of lower prices for American consumers.

    And, incredibly, the Americans complain that it is they that run a security risk with their current trade deficit with China! This claim is so crazy, we at Panda Blog have come to the conclusion that it must be the result of a misdirection campaign by the CIA-controlled American media. After all, the fact that China exports more to the US than the US does to China means that by definition, more of China’s economic production is dependent on the well-being of the American economy than vice-versa. And, with well over a trillion dollars in foreign exchange invested heavily in US government bonds, it is China that has the most riding on the continued stability of the American government, rather than the reverse. American commentators invent scenarios where the Chinese could hurt the American economy, which we could, but only at the cost of hurting ourselves worse. Mutual Assured Destruction is alive and well, but today it is not just a feature of nuclear strategy but a fact of the global economy.

    http://www.coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2018/03/a-chinese-consumers-perspective-on-chinese-trade-policy.html

  39. Tel

    I think there are holes in your actual brain. For fucks sake go and sort yourself out. That video you posted was no argument relevant to anything said here today.

    I’m pretty sure I linked to a still picture, not a video. But yeah, that’s what he had for Internet 40 years ago and despite the name containing the word “video”, no it could not play movies, it was slow update text with a handful of colours and chunky block graphics.

    I know it’s hard for the short sighted to accept but technology has delivered a lot of the things that people want. The teaching industry hasn’t updated itself much, their time is coming soon IMHO, but this business of “we didn’t get anything” is total garbage. You got heaps, you just didn’t make good use of it and now want to blame the other people who moved a bit quicker to adapt in a changing world. Australia had every opportunity, and we fluffed them. It really shits me when people pretend they never got anything.

    Tariffs in a large country like the USA work better because there’s plenty of internal population for the purpose of division of labour, and they are pretty close to competitive to begin with, and their unions don’t run the entire country. The USA has a huge internal market, every country is knocking on their door to sell to them so they can pick and choose. They can get away with tariffs indefinitely if they want to, so it’s largely a squabble over internal redistribution, who wins vs who loses… and a bit of political Trumpmanship.

    If Australia tried to do the same thing, the rest of the world just shrugs and says, “Yeah whatever”. We have zero market leverage. The smaller you are, the least it’s going to work. Imagine if Singapore decided to start trying to block imports and exports.

  40. Arky

    More bullshit and excuses.
    Chicom stooge.
    I was programming computer machine tools while you were in school.
    Go fuck yourself.

  41. Arky

    Forty years of failure.
    Forty years of smug little gits like Tel the spastic.
    Forty years since my forman we t home to his family, told them he had no job, shut himself in the shed and blew his brains out with a rifle he made with his own hands.
    Tel, you utter piece of shit. Go tell his sons he wasn’t good enough.

  42. Arky

    Thirty three years since that day, actually.

  43. max

    Arky say:

    “We have done it your way for forty years. The autistic, globalist libertarian way.”

    australian system is soft fascism for long time.

    most libertarians believe:

    in honest money ( gold and silver ).

    no central bank

    small government ( only defense )

    no war on drugs.

    any one can own guns

    federalism

    republicanism

    laissez faire. Anyone should be free to engage in any economic activity without license, permission, prohibition, or interference from the state. The government should not intervene in the economy in any way.

    no income taxes

    no government compulsory education

    no dole

    no social security

    no medicare

  44. max

    what is your belief Arky ?

    government is here to help you?
    to give you job?
    to educate you ?
    to give you free medicare?
    to give you free retirement?
    to feed you on the teeth until you die?

  45. Arky

    government is here to help you?
    to give you job?
    to educate you ?
    to give you free medicare?
    to give you free retirement?
    to feed you on the teeth until you die?

    ..
    Moron.
    None of that.
    OBVIOUSLY.
    Stay on track with the argument.
    Your policies have produced more of that than any other in history.
    40% of the economy is the government after forty years of your shit.
    FAIL.

  46. max

    “Your policies have produced more of that than any other in history.
    40% of the economy is the government after forty years of your shit.”

    ha,ha,ha

    socialist/fascist policies Arky –no freedom since WW1

  47. Arky

    If you wanted to grow government you couldn’t do any better than pursue shit for brains fake libertarian policies.
    Gut manufacturing. Grow the welfare sector.
    Import anyone who wants to come and grow welfare even more.
    Drive the unions out of the now non- existent manufacturing sector into managing super funds and over priced infrastructure spends by corrupt state governments, renewable energy scams and destroying the power grid.
    Good work, morons.

  48. Fisky

    most libertarians believe:

    …a bunch of stuff that is totally nullified by their open borders policies.

  49. Tel
    #2656382, posted on March 9, 2018 at 7:30 pm

    Tractors didn’t appear on every farm overnight, people knew they were coming. Trucks didn’t appear on every highway overnight, horses and oxen disappeared gradually.

    It might have just been a coincidence that the Great Depression happened soon after a number of the most significant tech-shock incidents in human history:
    * Vulcanized rubber (1844, Charles Goodyear)
    * Internal combustion engine (1864, Nikolaus Otto)
    * Dynamite (1867, Alfred Nobel)
    * Early electric grid rollout (1882, Thomas Edison in lower Manhattan)
    * Pneumatic Bicycle Tire (1888, John Dunlop)
    * Early ICE tractor (1892, John Froelich)
    * Powered flight (1903, Wright brothers)
    * Synthetic ammonia (1910, Haber–Bosch process).

    * 85 years before the stock market crash of 1929 which immediately preceded the GD.
    * 65 years before …..
    * 62 years before …..
    * 47 years before …..
    * 41 years before …..
    * 37 years before …..
    * 26 years before …..
    * 19 years before …..

    Maybe, just maybe I’ll accept that 19 years can be considered soon after (ammonia caused the great depression?) but all the rest have nothing to do with the great depression which was caused by the central banks.

    Tel, you’re not per chance having a drink (or smoke) tonight are ya mate?

  50. chrisl

    Tel Are you in an industry that can be replaced by outsourcing at the stroke of a pen?
    Spare a thought for those that are.

  51. max

    Arky say:
    “If you wanted to grow government you couldn’t do any better than pursue shit for brains fake libertarian policies.”

    you need to read more man.

    WW1
    fiat money
    income tax
    central bank
    medicare and social security

    all started with white man policies — english,irish,german origins.

    read Ludwig von Mises, Frédéric Bastiat, Murray Rothbard, Gary North.

    mises.org
    lewrockwell.com
    http://economics.org.au
    https://www.themaven.net/mishtalk
    http://www.acting-man.com/

  52. Entropy

    If you want to compete against low labor cost countries, you either force a standard of living that is the same as theirs, then your labor cost will be competitive. Or you introduce tariffs at such a level as to protect your own standard of living whilst giving them an opportunity to improve theirs.

    Actually Rick you make sure you have robust and fair rule of law, sensible regulations and minimise other costs like energy.

  53. max

    Fisky say:
    …a bunch of stuff that is totally nullified by their open borders policies.

    yes some libertarian have problems with walls.

    if you are not aboriginal origin you must come from somewhere too.

    walls stop people coming in and going out as well — like East Germany,or North Korea.

    my thinking is similar to this:
    When the immigrant can soon gain access to citizenship, but without any confession of faith other than his promise to obey the law and the Constitution, he thereby gains the authority to participate in the changing of both the law and the Constitution. He can seek to make the law and the Constitution conform to his confession of faith. This is the heart of the matter; this is the heart of the problem.

    https://mises.org/library/sanctuary-society-and-its-enemies-0

  54. max

    In my opinion people born in house who are socialist/fascist are more dangerous than any immigrant who do not have citizenship,they should be striped from citizenship….people like Arky.

  55. Fisky

    yes some libertarian have problems with walls.
    if you are not aboriginal origin you must come from somewhere too.

    Max, I am well aware that a significant number of libertarians support open borders policies, and were quite enthusiastically behind Chancellor Merkel’s decision to import 1.5 million Muslim “refugees”. That’s “libertarianism” for you.

  56. Arky

    Max will get it when the shit his ilk have foisted on the outer suburbs eventually break into his inner city idyll and start smacking his family on the head with hammers.

  57. max

    After the West German Government invited foreign workers (“Gastarbeiter”) in 1961, the figure sharply rose to currently 4.3 million within two decades (most of them Turkish from the rural region of Anatolia in southeast Turkey). They are sometimes called a parallel society within ethnic Germans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Germany

    they can blame politicians from Bismarck on.

  58. Arky

    And at that point he might reflect that keeping such people occupied with actual gainful employment instead of fake education and fake service economy work and fake disability pensions might have resulted in a different outcome.

  59. max

    Arky I love you too man

    tell me who are your heroes ?
    hitler,mussolini,mao,pol pot?

    tell me who should I read to get your knowledge ?

    it is you ( no one ) vs Ludwig von Mises, Frédéric Bastiat, Murray Rothbard, Gary North.

    who should I trust more?

  60. Arky

    You might live a full life, in a variety of occupations, observe the real world in actual progress, spend three or more decades listening carefully to those you encounter, then use your intellect to work it out for yourself.
    Assuming you have already done that, in addition, you might pull your head out of your arse.

  61. Fisky

    tell me who are your heroes ?

    Pinochet, General Park, Chiang Kai-Shek, Lee Kwan Yew. Wise leaders who got things done in the real world, not some text-book fantasy.

  62. max

    The twentieth century has witnessed the beginning, development, and end of the most tragic experiment in human history: socialism. The experiment resulted in tremendous human losses, destruction of potentially rich economies, and colossal ecological disasters. The experiment has ended, but the devastation will affect the lives and health of generations to come.The real tragedy of this experiment is that Ludwig von Mises and his followers — among the best economic minds of this century — had exposed the truth about socialism in 1920, yet their warnings went unheeded.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2001/08/gary-north/the-tenacity-of-ludwig-von-mises/

  63. Arky

    Who are you arguing with you numpty?
    No one is arguing that.
    Seriously: fuck off.

  64. max

    “Wise leaders who got things done in the real world”

    switzerland politicians are best.
    why ?
    1) no much power comparing to any other nation.
    2) ive never heard of any of them — that is why they are best.
    3) best americanpresident ever:
    William Henry Harrison holds the record for shortest term served, holding the office of presidency for 31 days before dying.

  65. max

    Arky I love you too man –you are pathetic.

    difference between me and you : I know I am “no one”, that is why I copy paste better and smarter man than me.
    But you you think you are smartest man in the universe –hohohaha ; you think some one care about your opinion.. ha,ha,ha

    you are still young go start reading.

  66. TLD

    As mentioned earlier US Steel is reopening an idled factory and hiring 500 new jobs – for people not robots. CEO David Burritt says the factory was idled because it couldn’t compete against unfair trade practices which will be redressed by the tariffs. He expects another 7 people to be indirectly employed for every person US Steel hires. Burritt believes a country needs a strong manufacturing industry for its own security. So; a more secure nation, jobs returning, jobs created, investment committed. And from someone who is actually involved in the industry and is CEO of a company risking investment. As opposed to Norberg who looks like someone who wears underpants with his suit.

  67. Chris M

    Never heard of Johan Norberg, which businesses has he operated?

  68. Fisky

    Never heard of Johan Norberg, which businesses has he operated?

    Hahaha

  69. John Constantine

    The most profitable thing India imports from Australia is cash.

    Massive rivers of gold from the Indian diaspora.

    India hits Australia with 60 percent tariffs on the billion dollar grain legume industry and their godless commo abc are too busy stroking out on Trump to notice.

    Their Julie bishop and their blackhanded turnbullites are too busy stroking out on Trump to notice.

    Australia continues to roll over and let the Indian mafia run an entire industry based upon exploiting loopholes in australias migration system so the Indian organised crime kingpins can sell Australian citizenship at full price, something our elite quisling numpties ignore because it speeds up the decolonisation process.

    India tariffs our exports at 60 percent and we sell them citizenship and access to a first world medical and welfare system for cents in the dollar.

    Actually we allow Indian organised crime posing as migration agents to sell structured financial products based upon australian citizenship that lure in clients with the promise the deal will be self funding after the first upfront lump sum payment, then will become a river of gold.

    Our elites actually get a thrill from selling the proles down the creek.

    Tariff Indian organised crime migration agents and see how much economic damage Australia suffers from hole in the wall education rorts and rigged business migration scams folding.

    Let them send us their best on merit, tariff the scam migration industry.

  70. Chris M

    If the goverment passes a carbon tax, so that the polluting manufacturing is cheaper to do in China, is it then OK to put a tarriff on the imports to offset that?

    Yes, this is the key problem.

    I’m opposed to tariffs but in Australia we have reverse tariffs leveled against local goods. For example I have to pay $0.40 per kWh to save the planet but the Chicoms have no such climate compunction and their cost is perhaps one quarter. Then we could compare employee rights and security… free trade works wonderfully on the level playing field.

  71. John Constantine

    The way free trade works on the subcontinent.

    India imposes sixty percent tariff on Australian grain legumes entering India through free trade non criminal open and declared ships entering Indian ports.

    Pakistan has suddenly begun importing cheap Australian grain legumes into non tariff Pakistan that had previously little interest in them.

    We can all see that a few bribes and cheap Australian chickpeas will slip into India over the Pakistani no tariff paid border, because everybody knows this is the way things are done.

  72. Arky

    India imposes sixty percent tariff on Australian grain legumes entering India through free trade non criminal open and declared ships entering Indian ports.

    ..
    I can’t believe it.
    Haven’t they read Von Mises?

  73. Arky

    Don’t those Indians know they are supposed to act rationally for the good of everyone in this, the most perfect of all possible worlds?

  74. Arky

    Let’s conduct an experiment on Max.
    Say there is a colony of robots on the moon who have a comparitive advantage over us in every single category of manufactured goods due to the uneven effects of gravity: they can shower us in every type of product, while anything shipped the other way costs too much. Except for human meat which they require in huge quantities and can’t get anywhere else.
    The question is this: As to you this is a simple case of interferring in markets is always wrong, and imports must be paid for by exports, in what are you going to invest your newfound human abattoir profits? Lampshades?

  75. Fisky

    Once you realise that globalists like Norberg are now in a functional political coalition with SJW corporations, censorious governments, and antifa extremists, it’s a total mystery that anyone thinks this has anything to do with “liberty”.

  76. struth

    The bullshit flowing from confused minds.
    Minds that need academic theory to apply to real world scenarios.
    People who need to follow someone or anything to understand what they dare not work out for themselves.
    The United States of America was and still is a superpower with high paid workers while Chinese billions were paid in dead rats and dreamed of being allocated a bike from their communist rulers.
    China has not become a powerful trading nation by playing fairly and open at all.
    It is highly proectionists and has super high tariffs.
    It is interfering in Western politics by buying socialist politicians that will willingly wreck the west and is helped every step of the way by the global socialist U.N. also intent on wrecking the west.
    And then Trump, against all this, decides to throw a tariff up against the Chinese who are not competitive because of a cheap workforce but due to corruption and not sticking to trade rules, gets hammered by the socialists who amazingly aren’t talking about the EU ‘s or China or indeed the rest of the worlds tariffs and how they are playing the game.
    The dumb theory over common sense approach of the libertarians in the face of all of this is staggering and only helps world domination by socialism.
    Trumps America can compete because Trump fixed their domestic environment before he put tariffs on only product from selected countries helping so called western nations in the process.
    Yet after all this we see froot loops like max and other theory worshippers shitting themselves and calling people that realise you can’t play fair with criminals socialists!
    FMD.
    Pathetic

  77. max

    Arky say;

    India imposes sixty percent tariff on Australian grain legumes entering India through free trade non criminal open and declared ships entering Indian ports.

    ..
    “I can’t believe it.
    Haven’t they read Von Mises?”

    Arky — no they did not read Mises–that is why they are so poor.

    a list of countries by Gross National Income per capita in 2016 at nominal values, according to the Atlas Method, an indicator of income developed by the World Bank.

    Rank:

    1— Norway —$82 000 US dollars
    8— Australia—$54,230 US dollars

    65—China—$8,250 US dollars

    136— India— $1,670 US dollars

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal,_Atlas_method)_per_capita

    be my guest and move to India if you like them so much.

  78. max

    most people cannot follow long chains of reasoning. Let me assure you, this includes most economists.

    1. Hazlitt’s Definition of Economics

    Hazlitt was a first-rate economist. He taught himself the basics of economics, and then he spent decades writing about economics. By 1946, he was prepared to write his book.

    Hazlitt offered a definition of good economics. He contrasted it with bad economics. He wanted to get these definitions clear in the minds of his readers.

    The bad economist sees only what immediately strikes the eye; the good economist also looks beyond. The bad economist sees only the direct consequences of a proposed course; the good economist looks also at the longer and indirect consequences. The bad economist sees only what the effect of a given policy has been or will be on one particular group; the good economist inquires also what the effect of the policy will be on all groups.

    Hazlitt made a second point. He said that much of what is regarded as economic theory is in fact special pleading by special interest groups. Let us take this observation one step further. Special interest groups hire professional economists to do their special pleading. So, bad economists sign up. They are paid well to do this.
    We are back to this problem: the average person is not in a position to assess which economist is the good economist. The average person is not in a position to follow the long chains of reasoning.
    Hazlitt was accurate in saying the bad economists are the ones who ignore indirect consequences. But the trouble is, almost everybody who is trained in economics is skilled at guiding people down primrose paths. Long chains of reasoning are really more like primrose paths.
    How is the average person expected to figure out which economist is a good economist, and which economist is a bad economist? How is he supposed to evaluate the special pleading of one group versus the special pleading of another group? This calls for a level of sophistication that the average man does not have.
    https://www.garynorth.com/public/13636.cfm

    Economics in One Lesson is an introduction to free market economics written by Henry Hazlitt.
    Basic Economics: A Citizen’s Guide to the Economy by Thomas Sowell

  79. tgs

    Jesus, this comment thread is a shitshow.

  80. nerblnob

    India used to have a 60% tariff on foreign oilfield technology.

    This made almost every new development since the 1960s too expensive, and their industry was moribund and inefficient.

    You’d go and show them something that could improve efficiency immensely, and drink many cups of tea, they’d all wobble their heads in approval but nothing would ever happen. That changed in the early 2000s and I did some good business there. (They also had the problem of stagnant state oil companies, like Oil India, and GSPC but especially the giant sloth ONGC)

    I’m surprised to hear it’s still the case in agricultural produce, but not shocked.

  81. Anton

    Max

    Rank:

    1— Norway —$82 000 US dollars
    8— Australia—$54,230 US dollars

    65—China—$8,250 US dollars

    136— India— $1,670 US dollars

    This is a function of past economics and culture. Current economic and social policy determine the rate of change. For accuracy this should be measured in terms of buying power, not foreign currency.

  82. Arky

    max
    #2656708, posted on March 10, 2018 at 9:02 am
    most people cannot follow long chains of reasoning. Let me assure you, this includes most economists.

    ..
    You are an arrogant lunatic.
    The only way the failed policies of the last forty years can be justified by the likes of you is by writing off 30 to 40% of the population who got completely screwed by it.
    Which is why you traitorous scum simultaneously brought in as many immigrants who would have no clue as to what was lost in your moronic, selfish gamble.
    You properly belong hanging from lamp posts.
    You are too stupid to see that Struth and I are attempting to save you from that outcome.

  83. Anton

    The second biggest mistake libertarian economists made was considering money to be an asset. The biggest was to consider debt to be money

    Take those away and free trade is sensible. Make something if you want to consume something

  84. Tel

    Tel Are you in an industry that can be replaced by outsourcing at the stroke of a pen?

    I’m a computer engineer, mostly working in software and networking… the least protected industry that has ever existed.

  85. Arky

    I’m a computer engineer

    ..
    As if we couldn’t guess.
    Not so good with actual humans, right?

  86. Arky

    In fact, the very definition of the libertarian fuckhead autist.

  87. Tel

    …, in what are you going to invest your newfound human abattoir profits? Lampshades?

    Human meat grinders : Iraq War, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria all of which Australia and the US contributed to and not a peep from Arky over that… but oh the dreaded moon robots!

    Egats.

  88. Iampeter

    As if we couldn’t guess.
    Not so good with actual humans, right?

    LOL yea because Arky, Fisky and the other perpetually triggered, screaming imbeciles that dominate Cat threads are the model of calm and collected, inter-personally skilled individuals.

    The Cat is a testament to what happens when you don’t have any moderation and its a cesspit of old school leftists who are generally older readers yet somehow manage to be more ignorant on every topic than teenagers and are easier to trigger than your typical SJW.

    It’s more cringe-y than an episode of Jerry Springer watching you idiots spout incomprehensible, emotional gibberish and project your own severe autism and dysfunctions on those trying to patiently explain the basics of how things on planet earth work to you.

    You’re going to be no end of entertainment when you’re long-suffering grand kids put you away in a retirement home already.

  89. Arky

    Iraq War, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria all of which Australia and the US contributed

    ..
    Unhinged. So the West must be punished, right? Is that where you’re coming from?

  90. Tel

    The teaching industry runs about 80% on government money, is protected by regulations, sewn up by unions (some of the worst leftists of any unions). The “customers” are herded into classrooms by police, and drugged if they complain.

  91. Arky

    your own severe autism

    ..
    The “I know you are, but what am I” response.
    Well done Spazampeter, you really have nothing at all, yet managed to put it into four whole paragraphs.

  92. Arky

    “Uh you’re a teacher. Duh! Uh. Grunt. I went to school once, I know all about you”.
    Fuckwit.

  93. struth

    LOL yea because Arky, Fisky and the other perpetually triggered, screaming imbeciles that dominate Cat threads are the model of calm and collected, inter-personally skilled individuals.

    The Cat is a testament to what happens when you don’t have any moderation and its a cesspit of old school leftists who are generally older readers yet somehow manage to be more ignorant on every topic than teenagers and are easier to trigger than your typical SJW.

    It’s more cringe-y than an episode of Jerry Springer watching you idiots spout incomprehensible, emotional gibberish and project your own severe autism and dysfunctions on those trying to patiently explain the basics of how things on planet earth work to you.

    You’re going to be no end of entertainment when you’re long-suffering grand kids put you away in a retirement home already.

    All if it not one point made.
    Just calling others names for calling others names……………………………….

    From the prick who thinks anything left of anarchy is socialism.

    Freak show.

  94. Tel

    Teachers in the Western World have consistently delivered lower quality output despite more resources, decade after decade, and then demand higher pay! Parents don’t have the courage to speak up, while their children are held hostage.

  95. Tel

    Indeed teaching would have to be the canonical example of what goes wrong when an industry is allowed to sit and fester without competition and beyond the light of public scrutiny. I don’t need to take advice on business acumen from the teaching industry.

  96. struth

    The Chinese and the U.N. are strangling the west with corruption, and we’re supposed to play fair?

    When people start an actual war, these twats will be lined up to be shot, because they wouldn’t want to point a gun back, because theoretically you are just doing what the opposition does.
    And that’s theoretically wrong.
    They have the economic guns but we have the economic flowers, son, will be the answer given to “why are we starving dad?”

    I have asked someone to explain why they think continuing to by your TV’s from the thief down the local pub, rather than at the shop because it’s cheaper and therefore better for everybody is a line they are holding, and no one, not even Sinclair has replied.

    Why does it not matter to you WHY the product is cheaper?

  97. Arky

    Agree about teachers Tel.
    Not really the topic of the thread is it?
    Focus man. Go on! You’ll get there eventually.

  98. struth

    Trump is throwing out the tariff for good friend/allies countries.

    What does that tell you?

    We are at war with socialism and the left.
    We always have been.
    They hate the west, and now control the U.N, which has our traitorous left wing politicians jumping to do everything asked, and are also being corrupted by China.
    Tariffs up everywhere else, not allowed to use our own resources because Climate Change, yet the socialist countries and corrupted countries are allowed to go hammer and tongs.

    The fact that the general politically disinterested are even hearing about this run of the mill exercise is testament to the MSM, it’s agenda and hypocrisy.

    Malcom and Skeletor and a host of other U.N. lefty pollies all around the country , really don’t want to be exempted from Trumps steel tariff.
    Seriously.

  99. max

    government schools did not do good job:

    so many smart people in here like :struth,Arky,tgs,Anton

    tell me what did you get all your knowledge — I want and need some of it.

    so smart and intelligent, I love you all.

  100. max

    “It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a ‘dismal science.’ But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.” ― Murray N. Rothbard.
    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

  101. Arky

    No doubt you would say the same thing about Climate “Science”.
    Sucker.

  102. struth

    It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a ‘dismal science.’ But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.” ― Murray N. Rothbard.
    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

    Stop and think before posting Max.

    You are quoting an economist there.
    You are proving our point while not intending to.

  103. max

    Arky :you belive in global warming?

    not you man –what a disappointment you are –you are my hero man –what about dinosaurs?

  104. max

    Mr or Mrs struth

    what do you believe?

    statism ?
    socialism ?
    fashism ?
    communism ?

    what is your philosophy if you have any

    must be this one :
    I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”

    that is favorite neocon words.

  105. Arky

    #2656956, posted on March 10, 2018 at 1:59 pm
    Arky :you belive in global warming?

    .,
    Ah!
    I think I see your problem.
    You read simple sentences and get the opposite meaning.
    I’m going for a run.
    Beat yourself up while I’m away.

  106. struth

    Max, I will now no longer respond to you on account of you being an imbecile.

    There is no point.
    Another young one I reckon.
    If you’re that stupid with a few years under your belt, I wouldn’t admit it.
    Claim youth.
    Bye.

  107. max

    First of all, free trade is a mutual benefit, whether it is domestic or international.
    International trade is neither a favor nor a contest.
    Like all other voluntary transactions, international trade takes place only so long as both buyer and seller want it to.
    As far as our most favored nation is concerned, that should be the United States of America — which means that American consumers should be free to buy whatever they want, wherever they want, without being restricted by any of the agendas of innumerable special interest groups.

    by Thomas Sowell

  108. max

    International trade is not a zero-sum game, where one nation loses what the other gains. Like other trade, international trade takes place only when both parties benefit. There is no fixed number of jobs to fight over.
    When one country becomes more prosperous, it creates more jobs producing the things it can buy with its greater affluence. When two countries become more prosperous by trading with each other, they both create more jobs.
    Nor does it do any good to scare people with bogey-man words like “trade deficit” or “debtor nation.” The benefits of international trade do not depend on whether you have more imports or exports. Countries have prospered with either an import surplus or an export surplus — or have failed to prosper with either one.
    As for being a debtor nation, this is an accounting technicality that is completely misleading when applied to international transactions, as if it was like an individual going into hock. The United States has been a debtor nation for most of its history — and it has had the highest standard of living in the world for most of its history.
    Every time someone in another country sends his money to the United States, we are automatically in debt to that person, since it is still his money.
    The more prosperous and safe the American economy is, the more people in other countries want to put their money in American banks and buy stocks in American corporations.

    by Thomas Sowell

  109. tgs

    Iampeter
    #2656883, posted on March 10, 2018 at 12:16 pm

    Goddamn that’s so on point.

  110. Oh come on

    The tariffs are wrong and a bad idea on the face of it, but it seems they are a first salvo in what is fundamentally a dispute over IP, which China has indeed been ripping off the developed world for decades. It’s not even the theft of IP, which is of course rampant, but non-Chinese firms that have attempted to legitimately engage with China have been sold an absolute pup in the aggregate. The essential bargain was transfer your technology to us and we’ll allow you free access to the colossal Chinese market in return. If China were an honest broker, it would have been a decent deal. You can see why the corporate world jumped at it. Well, that hasn’t worked out so great. Chinese firms, by and large, run rings around their foreign competitors in the Chinese market due to their critical position in the Chinese crony capitalist model. By and large, foreign firms do not compete on a level playing field in China – not even slightly. What are known as WOFEs (Wholly Owned Foreign Enterprises) have a very difficult time operating and trading in the Chinese market. And with just about all major industries, foreign investment is only permitted in the form of joint ventures (in which the Chinese partner must own a majority share). The longstanding JVs that you find today in China may appear healthy, but it’s hard not to conclude that this is a bad long term strategy considering that even now these foreign parent companies are in an advanced stage of incubating those who seek to supplant them.

    And the road to China Inc for foreigners is littered with catastrophic failures who simply had no concept of how utterly brazen, amoral and lawless their Chinese partner would end up being. There’s an adage that has long done the rounds amongst the foreign corporate expat community in China: at the start, the foreign partner has the capital and the local partner has the market knowledge. At the end, the local partner has the capital and the foreign partner has the market knowledge. And this is so, so often the case, even today.

    Broadly speaking, China has been at best, expedient and at worst downright duplicitous in its adherience to its side of the deal with the rest of the world. I think we’re too far down the path to reverse the deal, and China certainly knows that its integration with the world economy is well past the point of being too big to fail, and has been engaged in a long and successful game of chicken with its foreign stakeholders on the back of this. It doesn’t have to be this way – we are still the senior partners in the China-world enterprise and we are still able to exert great pressure on China in an effort to force it into holding up its end of the bargain. Far greater pressure than we have ever considered.

    Tariffs are bad, but I think there’s a bigger picture at play here.

  111. Oh come on

    Goddamn that’s so on point.

    Hi Alan-ist or sockpuppet? You decide.

  112. mh

    Do the purist libertarians here also believe in climate science? I’ve started noticing that those that argue so ferociously against Trump have no scepticism at all on anthropogenic global warming.

  113. Iampeter

    Do the purist libertarians here also believe in climate science? I’ve started noticing that those that argue so ferociously against Trump have no scepticism at all on anthropogenic global warming.

    Yep, those who support individual rights, rights protecting government and capitalism are the ones whose position on climate science needs clarification.

    Meanwhile you conservatives, who spout nothing but leftist positions from the 20th century on everything from immigration to trade and are even responsible for building the environmentalist bureaucracy in Australia, you’re the ones who are fighting against climate science. Yea…

    I think if we could only harness the bottomless stupidity and endless projection of the confused, leftist commenters here we would have a truly renewable energy supply.

  114. Combine Dave

    Fisky
    #2656181, posted on March 9, 2018 at 3:18 pm
    Norberg believes the best way to raise GDP is by closing factories while importing Muslim refugees.

    Sadly a view shared by both the Australian Prime Minister and opposition leader.

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