Audrey knows best …. sure

Governments should let the market fill supply gaps for best results for consumers, Audrey Zibelman, chief executive of ...I’m sure most Cats have come to the conclusion that the Australian Financial Review is the most anti-business business newspaper that has ever been published.  There is not a new tax or a higher tax that its journalists won’t endorse.  Company tax cuts – no way, there are no guarantees of higher wages, more jobs; there is so much free stuff to be given away by the government and that must have priority.

And then we have the relentless promotion of renewable energy and the denigration of coal-fired electricity … indeed coal more generally by the newspaper.  And master of this trade is of course Ben Potter who fails to declare that most of his pieces are personal comments, palming them off as if they were news.

Of course, he is incensed at the prospect that the Liddell power station might continue to operate after 2022 with a new owner.  Gosh, AGL has got such good ideas, investing in renewables, a bit of gas peaking, demand management.  Does it get any better than this?  Nothing must be placed in the way of this greenwash company headed by Yankee genius, Andy Vesey,.

But it’s OK for Liddell to close down, according to another Yankee ring-in, Audrey Zibelman, who now heads up the Australian Energy Market Operator after the unfortunate death of her predecessor.  Something that Ben might have missed, but AEMO and AEMC are at loggerheads and the government has clearly marginalised Audrey – oh dear.

Here’s the thing, Ben: Audrey has form on this stuff and she has been 100 per cent wrong.  When Hazelwood closed down, AEMO responded in this way:

AEMO advises that the closure of Hazelwood will not compromise the security of the Victorian electricity system nor the broad NEM next summer.  There are power generation resources available in Victoria and the NEM that currently are not operating at all or to their full capacity that can be made available to replace the power currently supplied by Hazelwood.

AEMO’s market analysis reveals these resources exceed the 1600 megawatts capacity of Hazelwood.

And then just six months later:

A strategic reserve  of around 1000 megawatts of flexible dispatchable energy resources is required to maintain supply reliability in South Australian and Victoria.

A lot changed in six months it would seem.  And I haven’t even mentioned the misguided forecasts on the price impacts of the closure of Hazelwood – remember the Victorian premier telling us it would be a dollar or two per week.  Sure.

The truth is that Audrey and AEMO are not reliable.  She is a full-on greenie who believes that demand management is key – that’s right, bribing people to use less energy when they should be using it.  The government should rightly ignore her. I’m sure the Cats are doing so.

But here is the story:

MALCOLM TURNBULL’S BID TO FLOG LIDDELL TO ALINTA ILL-ADVISED: AEMO

Malcolm Turnbull’s bid to flog AGL Energy’s ageing Liddell power station to Alinta Energy rather than have AGL close it in 2022 is exactly the wrong way to ensure that the state’s energy consumers have access to reliable and affordable energy.

Who says the Prime Ministerial lunge for the commanding heights of the NSW power grid is ill-advised? Audrey Zibelman, the chief executive of the Australian Energy Market Operator.

In her 16 March advice to the government on AGL’s plan to replace Liddell’s 1800 megawatt capacity with a mix of solar, wind, gas, battery, hydro storage and demand management, Ms Zibelman said the best way to ensure a good outcome for consumers was to allow the market time to operate and not to fixate on any particular supplier (AGL) or type of supply (coal).

“AEMO’s view is that optimal approaches towards ensuring an efficient balanced system must target mechanisms that allow the greatest practical level of competition and innovation on both the supply and demand sides of the system,” Ms Zibelman wrote.

“A market approach that allows multiple other participants to compete to invest in a variety of resources that can address the reliability deficit to produce the best overall outcome for consumers,” she said in the conclusion of the advice.

Don’t scare capital

In other words, don’t panic and blunder into a market you barely understand (not her words) because you will just make things worse.

The federal government has already become a large energy supplier by buying out the NSW and Victorian interests in Snowy Hydro and actively pursuing the $4 billion Snowy 2.0 expansion.

AGL Energy's plan to replace Liddell power station
AGL Energy’s plan to replace Liddell power station AEMO

The SA government launched a $550 million energy security plan a year ago and Victoria has just announced its own big battery plan.

But the more government intervenes in the energy markets the less eager private investors will be to compete and innovate in a way that Ms Zibelman (and most energy experts) says delivers the best outcomes for consumers.

This is especially so because AEMO’s prognosis for the NSW power supply post-Liddell is not nearly as bad as the Turnbull government likes to paint it.

In fact, if you take the view that energy companies are likely to make investments that meet well-telegraphed gaps in supply – such as the closure of Liddell seven years after AGL first proposed it in 2015 – there is little likelihood of a shortfall post-2022.

In its advice AEMO found that if AGL delivered on all three stages of its plan for replacing Liddell – or other suppliers delivered comparable resources – the NSW grid would not have a problem meeting demand post-Liddell. EnergyAustralia says it wants an equal opportunity to fill any post-Liddell supply gap.

Remote risks

Only if AGL failed to complete its entire plan – and no other company such as EA stepped into the breach – would there be a significant risk of supply outages, AEMO found.

AEMO’s base case allows for AGL to complete its 100 MW Bayswater power station expansion only, and just 810 MW of mostly wind and solar to enter the NSW market from other suppliers. Scenario 1 adds AGL’s first stage – 300 MW solar, 250 MW gas and 20 MW demand response – to the base case, and Scenario 3 adds AGL’s second and third stages (500 MW gas, 750 MW wind and solar, 80 MW demand response and a 250 MW battery).

In the highly improbable base case, if a once-in-ten-years demand peak occurs in 2026-27 and no-one else invests in additional firm energy supply, AEMO says that every three years about 200,000 NSW households “may” lose power for five hours.

In Scenario 1, under the same demand conditions, AEMO says that every four years 174,000 houses may lose power for 3.6 hours. In Scenario 2, 172,000 homes may lose power for 2.2 hours every 20 years.

There’s just no need for a Prime Minister to wade into the energy market to forestall such remote and distant risks.

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76 Responses to Audrey knows best …. sure

  1. Dr Fred Lenin

    Nationalise AgLs coal fired stations , without compensation see how the gangrenes go at the next AGM .Study latest coal fired generating stations , pick out the cleanest,then build new ones at Port Ai]ugusta ,Latrobe valley Hunter and Queensland in the middle of the coalfields ,cut amount of coal exported. We need it ourselves ,why allow greedy people to profit from things we can use ? When they are all operating privatise them ,governments are useless at business ,never met a lawtradespersonwho was . Stop ALL subsidies for carpet bag “energy” use the savings to cut prices minimise regulation and cut royalties and pass the benefits to vonsumers . And tell the u.n.communists to piss off by withdrawing funding ,cease foreign aid untill all national debt is paid off ,borrowing money to give away is common amongst politicians . Is it ?
    Any party that did this would be in office for ever

  2. stackja

    Dr Fred Lenin
    #2679067, posted on April 5, 2018 at 2:27 pm

    Stop ALL subsidies

    Yes! Then see who wants to do ‘business’.

  3. Leo G

    The Green elitist dream of an Australian post-industrial service economy with an expendable electricity grid and a population rapidly shrinking toward “sustainability” (ie oblivion).
    Why must their fantasy be our nightmare?

  4. H B Bear

    Malcolm Turnbull’s bid to flog AGL Energy’s ageing Liddell power station to Alinta Energy rather than have AGL close it in 2022 is exactly the wrong way to ensure that the state’s energy consumers have access to reliable and affordable energy.

    Nice to get your value laden language out nice and early to let people know what j’ism is being sprayed at you. The reality is that with planned maintenance and refurbishment “ageing” generators can be kept going well beyond any theoretical end of economic life. In fact, fully depreciated plants are often the most profitable units across a generation suite, precisely why AGL throws off huge profits and cash while clothing itself in the green cloak of windmills.

  5. egg_

    precisely why AGL throws off huge profits and cash while clothing itself in the green cloak of windmills.

    Why did AGL purchase Macquarie Generation if not to turn a profit?

  6. The Barking Toad

    Audrey and her ilk should be put in the stocks in Garema Place and pelted with rotten fruit.

    Along with every Federal/State/Territory politician that has ever supported anything to do with the AGW scam that has destroyed our electricity supply/cost.

    Barr/Rattenbury/Turnbull/Di Natalie/Andrews/Shorten would be a good start.

    Shit, we’re gunna need a bigger stocks!

  7. DD

    I suggest the contribution of the battery is in fact a greater than 250MW drain to a 250MW contribution.

    And you cannot get the second without having incurred the first.

    In times of tight supply how long may it take to reload the battery for a second shot?

    These people do not live in our world!

  8. RobK

    You cannot equate RE to baseload electricity supply in any measure of reliability, ease of transmission, ease of control and instrumentation, ruggedness of operation, predictabilty of output and profitability of actual service delivered. RE is an agrarian solution that doesn’t fit well as a solution for industry, commerce or the urban environment. There are niches where RE excels. Grid connect is not one of them. Stop the sudsidies. Let them all compete.

  9. RobK

    RE production does not average predictably over time. It varies from year to year, week to week….second to second. To say that statistically a certain installed capacity will give you x-amount of energy over a particular time is never a certainty. Some years there’s going to be gluts and droughts but you wont know when exactly.

  10. Mak Siccar

    Thank heavens for Judith Sloan’s incisive analyses. More power to her!

  11. Charles

    Who hired Audrey Zibelman? Surely there has to be some accountability for putting this clueless muppet in place in the first instance.

  12. What chance a P.M. (or even a politician) who would say:
    “Unfortunately I must confess to one of the many gullible and I have been duped by AGW and “renewable” energy scamsters.
    From this moment forward, all energy subsidies and energy taxes are withdrawn.”

    No chance.

    A revolt is needed.

  13. Aethelred

    Ms Zibelman holds an Executive MBA from the Carlson School of Management and a Bachelor of Arts from Pennsylvania State University and a JD/LLD-Doctor of Jurisprudence (Law) degree from Hamline University School of Law.

    Maybe someone with an engineering background might have been a better choice.

  14. Bruce of Newcastle

    So AGL wants to close Liddell yet Alinta has just lobbed a $1 billion expression of interest for it. Which is fun since AGL got it for nothing as a sweetener from Macquarie Energy as I recall.

    That implies that closing Liddell is worth more than $1 billion to AGL in monopoly pricing.

    Where is ACCC? On holiday?

  15. cohenite

    Another scumbag greenie in a vital position at the AEMO. That bastard Gramsci would be proud.

  16. egg_

    RE production does not average predictably over time. It varies from year to year, week to week….second to second. To say that statistically a certain installed capacity will give you x-amount of energy over a particular time is never a certainty. Some years there’s going to be gluts and droughts but you wont know when exactly.

    AWS could log a ‘wind rose’ at wind farm locations, but I doubt that they bothered in their feasibility studies.

  17. RobK

    That implies that closing Liddell is worth more than $1 billion to AGL in monopoly pricing.

    Where is ACCC? On holiday?
    1)Yes.
    2)Yes.
    3) Probably.

  18. cohenite

    Wind doesn’t produce any energy for 40% of the time, solar none for over 50% of the time; yet Australia has spent about $100 billion on these things. Even when they do produce power their power is not compatible with a 50hz grid so vast extra infrastructure has to be set up to even out the current from the fuckers.

    What is being done to Australia’s electricity is serious shit.

  19. Chris M

    Executive MBA from the Carlson School of Management and a Bachelor of Arts from Pennsylvania State University and a JD/LLD-Doctor of Jurisprudence (Law) degree from Hamline University School of Law.

    A highly educated nitwit, the dopiest kind. Demonstrating again why Aussies mock academics as clueless.

  20. cohenite

    Table 1 from AGL should be exhibit 1 for their criminal prosecution. Projected capacity at high demand, ie reliability, from zero upwards for the renewables and batteries. Insane.

  21. yarpos

    The NEM dispatch dashboard this morning indicated the entire might of the SA wind power system was supplying 1MW (yes, one Megawatt). Yet idiots in the media compare renewable power with fossil power as if they are equivalents.

    Do to back up /duplication costs inherent in renewables low and intermiitent availability, any claim the wind and solar are cheaper than fossil fuels is complete rubbish. Somone in SA finally got the then government to smell the coffee, and oops , we need another $550 million.

  22. Rob

    Note the apoplexy at the use of “Monash” in the name of the fledgling Monash Forum.
    Without verballing Monash, it is possible to consider that were that great man / engineer still alive, and now at the helm of a government owned national electricity system, we wouldn’t be in this horrible mess.
    An engineer, the calibre of Monash would have ensured that a state-of-the-art standard was applied to all aspects of building and operating what is surely one of the nation’s most vital utilities.

    Furthermore, if government wanted to decree that a certain percentage of “renewables” (say 25%) must be included in the generation mix, then competent engineers would need to oblige in the most practical way.
    No subsidies required since the overall expense of operating a national electricity system would be covered by the setting of appropriate tariffs.
    Of course the price of electricity would be pushed higher but that would ultimately be a ballot box issue.
    More renewables equals higher prices – with the public’s tolerance for such increases ultimately being tested at the ballot box.

  23. manalive

    She [Audrey] is a full-on greenie who believes that demand management is key …

    Peak and off-peak power rates are simple demand management mechanisms that individal consumers can decide to utilise or not, but I suspect what Audrey and her confrères have in mind is actually a euphamism for supply management, technology that turns your air conditioner off whether you like it or not.
    The green ‘renewables’ crowd, the CC™ industrial complex, are never upfront about anything.

  24. Barry Bones

    If prices are so high, as you say, then surely it’s economic to build a plant.

    So instead of complaining, put your money where your mouth is !

    The reality is that it’s now cheaper to build renewables with firming than it is to build coal.

    I’m not a greenie by any stretch, but I can’t see the point of promoting coal generation that is more costly and polluting.

  25. I’m not going to say anything.
    I’ve been too angry and ranting lately and all this arse fvckery from these pissant metrosexual p00fter inner city bastards and lesbo wymynses is giving me the shits. (and their bicycles give me the shits too)
    So I shut up.

  26. egg_

    Barry Bones
    #2679299, posted on April 5, 2018 at 7:58 pm

    Shitfer?

  27. Mr Black

    This is all nonsense and lies. A watermelon cabal of interests that are opposed to western civilisation are doing everything possible to restrain and devolve it. They are mortal enemies and the sooner they are treated as such and not as policy opponents with whom one argues and debates, the better. They are the Enemy. They must be destroyed or they will win.

  28. Boambee John

    LeoG at 1442

    nd a population rapidly shrinking toward “sustainability” (ie oblivion).

    This was the dream in the days of organisations such as Zero Population Growth, Australians for an Ecologically Sustainable Population and Australians Against Further Immigration.

    Those days are long gone, the current Slime favour expanded immigration, preferably from culturally incompatible regions.

  29. Tel

    If prices are so high, as you say, then surely it’s economic to build a plant.

    So instead of complaining, put your money where your mouth is !

    Barry Bonehead, do you do it deliberately?

    You know what the RET is?!? That thing artificially imposed to make coal unworkable, not because there’s anything wrong with the coal but because Green Energy policy has been shoved down the throat of the public. So educate yourself and stop misinforming others.

    Get rid of the RET garbage and suddenly power prices go right down and new coal plant gets built. Trouble is trying to make sure it’s gone and stays gone (i.e. how to prevent the impending ALP government from making it worse).

  30. Natural Instinct

    January 23, 2017 – 1:00 PM

    The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) is pleased to announce the appointment of Ms Audrey Zibelman to the role of AEMO Chief Executive Officer (CEO), effective Monday, 20 March 2017.

    Ms Zibelman has extensive international experience in the public, private and not-for profit energy sectors, most recently having held the position of Chair of the New York State Public Service Commission (NYPSC), where she was responsible for overseeing the regulation and safety of New York’s electricity, gas, telephone, cable, water and steam utilities.

    During Ms Zibelman’s leadership at the NYPSC, New York Governor Andrew M. Cuomo enacted the ‘Reforming the Energy Vision’ (REV) plan. The REV plan has been internationally recognised for successfully developing and implementing 21st century regulatory reform with a focus on lowering the cost of energy for consumers while building a more resilient and reliable power system.

    Prior to joining NYPSC, Ms Zibelman was the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of GO15 member organisation, PJM, a system operator organisation responsible for operating the power grid and wholesale power market which serves 14 states across the eastern United States.

    Ms Zibelman is also a Founder and past President and Chief Executive Officer of Viridity Energy, Inc., which she formed after more than 25 years of electricity utility industry leadership experience in both the public and private sectors.

    AEMO Chair Dr Anthony (Tony) Marxsen said after an extensive search, the AEMO Board was pleased to appoint such a recognised international expert in energy policy, markets and Smart Grid innovation.

    “Audrey’s vast experience in creating and managing new wholesale electricity markets, and transforming existing energy markets and large power systems will further strengthen the work that AEMO has undertaken to support Australia’s energy industry transformation,” said Dr Marxsen.

    “Audrey has the vision to lead, guide and support our organisation and the broader Australian energy industry as we transition our energy markets and reform power systems planning and management.”

    Dr Marxsen said that Ms Zibelman, together with the Executive Leadership Team, will continue to build on the strong legacy left by AEMO’s foundation Managing Director and CEO Matt Zema to deliver on AEMO’s vision of energy security for all Australians.

    “I would particularly like to thank Karen Olesnicky, a close colleague and long-time friend of Matt’s, who took on the very challenging role of Acting CEO amidst such sudden circumstances,” said Dr Marxsen.

    “Karen has done an outstanding job during what has been a trying and challenging time for both AEMO and the broader energy industry. The Board thanks Karen for her leadership, dedication and commitment to our organisation.”

    Ms Zibelman’s appointment is effective from Monday, 20 March 2017 where she will take up the role of AEMO CEO, based in Melbourne.
    ———————————————-

    BIOGRAPHY:
    Ms Audrey Zibelman, incoming Chief Executive Officer, Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO)

    Audrey Zibelman

    Ms Zibelman has extensive experience in the public, private and not-for profit energy and electricity sectors in the United States, most recently having held the positions of Commissioner and Chair of the New York State Public Service Commission (NYPSC) where she was responsible for overseeing the regulation and safety of New York’s electric, gas, telephone, cable, water and steam utilities.

    During her tenure at the NYPSC, Ms Zibelman led the design and implementation of extensive regulatory and retail market changes to modernise and transform the state’s electricity industry under New York Governor Andrew M. Cuomo’s ‘Reforming the Energy Vision’ plan.

    A recognised national and international expert in energy policy, markets and Smart Grid innovation, Ms Zibelman is a Founder and past President and Chief Executive Officer of Viridity Energy, Inc., which she formed after more than 25 years of electric utility industry leadership experience in both the public and private sectors.

    Previously, Ms Zibelman was the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of GO15 member organisation, PJM, a regional transmission organisation responsible for operating the power grid and wholesale power market which serves 14 states across the eastern United States.

    Ms Zibelman also held legal and executive positions at Xcel Energy, served as General Counsel to the New Hampshire Public Utilities Commission, and was Special Assistant Attorney General in the Minnesota Attorney General’s Office.

    During her career, Ms Zibelman has served on numerous industry-related and non-profit boards, including, but not limited to the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic Reliability Councils. Ms Zibelman’s board experience also includes Advisor to Secretary of Energy for the US Department of Energy and Advisory Council, New York State Energy Research and Development Authority, the New York State Planning Board and the New York State Emergency Planning Council.

    Ms Zibelman holds an Executive MBA from the Carlson School of Management and a Bachelor of Arts from Pennsylvania State University and a JD/LLD-Doctor of Jurisprudence (Law) degree from Hamline University School of Law.

    Winner of the 2016 Dive Awards: Policymaker of the Year by leading industry news publisher, Utility Dive: In November 2016, NY PSC Chair Audrey Zibelman was named the winner of the 2016 Dive Awards: Policymaker of the Year.

    Most Influential Since 1990: Audrey Zibelman was named in the top 20 list of lions and luminaries who led the changes in utilities, in Fortnightly Magazine June 2016.

    Ms Zibelman and her husband Mr Phillip Harris are the proud parents of four children and 10 grandchildren.

  31. Dr Faustus

    The reality is that it’s now cheaper to build renewables with firming than it is to build coal.

    The reality is this is not true.

    Finkel landed on A$75/MWh for HELE new build coal. These stations are being built throughout Asia at about $40/MWh – but A$75/MWh is probably right for contemporary Australia.

    The most recent large-scale renewable auction (Origin buying Stockyard Hill wind from 2019 to 2030) priced the power at ~A$60/MWh. But this did not include firming – which, depending on technology/commercial arrangements, adds $30 to $100’s per MWh.

    More significantly, government policy directly and indirectly disbenefits coal new builds. Directly, renewables attract an $80/MWh subsidy via the large scale generation certificates – which obviously coal doesn’t. Indirectly, Finkel found coal had a WACC of 14.9% (because of uncertainty about future policy) as opposed to 7% for renewables.

    So, that’s renewable ‘cheapness’ at the expense of transfers from the broader economy.

  32. RobK

    Egg,
    AWS could log a ‘wind rose’ at wind farm locations, but I doubt that they bothered in their feasibility studies.
    Windrose data is standard fare for wind turbine site planning but the point I was trying to make earlier is that irrespective of the individual site data, it is not any guarantee of performance over any particular period. It’s a bit like average rainfall doesnt tell you how much rain you will get this month, season, year or decade.

  33. Mother Lode

    o say that statistically a certain installed capacity will give you x-amount of energy over a particular time is never a certainty.

    Isn’t there some saying about not trying to wade across a river because it has an average depth of 3 feet?

  34. egg_

    irrespective of the individual site data, it is not any guarantee of performance over any particular period. It’s a bit like average rainfall doesnt tell you how much rain you will get this month, season, year or decade.

    Precisely, and who knows how much historical data they look at?
    Not sure of the parameters but along the lines of cohenite’s post there’s a window of wind speed that’s acceptable – min/max, too.

  35. RobK

    Barry bones,
    RE is poor quality electricity because it is intermittent. It lacks the ability to control reactive power which means extra equipment is required to manage run-away transmission losses (i.e.the phase shift between Voltage and current; power factor). The Finkel report acknowledged this in his report.(along with buffering requirements to mitigate short term surges. Strorage required for load-shifting and peak shaving to attempt to bring them upto baseload specication)
    RE produces when ever it feels like it and displaces baseload, but baseload is required to standby on cheap contract rates whilst RE picks up spot price. Then baseload has to fork out the RET directly to the RE generators. RE requires a lot more kilometres of transmission line funded by third party headworks. I could go on such as capacity factor, service life etc. Your claim of RE being cheaper is bollocks. Why does the RE industry have to rely on subsidies for its existance yet coal pays a healthy royalty to the states for the coal resources consumed. A benefit to all in every way.

  36. RobK

    Barry bones,
    Finkel also recommended tbe establishment of various boards and committees to oversee the development of this massive experiment. Dispite the claimed experience in the RE field of some of tbe players, the fact is the impact of high penetration RE on large grids is problematic around the world. It is an experiment in Germany, the US and any other large industrialized grid.
    Synthetic inertia is not the equivalent of a large synchronous rotors in robustness nor speed of response.

  37. OldOzzie

    But Lord Waffles of Wentworth Turdbull says:-

    Malcolm Turnbull concedes Liddell could close without causing shortfall

    Malcolm Turnbull has acknowledged the Liddell power station could close in 2022 as planned without creating an energy shortfall but believes it should stay open for at least a few more years just in case.

    The Prime Minister has told The Australian Financial Review that if the government’s National Energy Guarantee is adopted by the states and territories at an energy ministers’ meeting on April 20, there will be the capacity for other generators, especially gas, to fill the hole from 2022 until the upgraded Snowy-Hydro scheme begins around 2025.

    “You could say it is out of an abundance of prudence or caution but I’m very conscious that 2022 is not long away and I’m very confident, as is the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO), that the NEG will deliver us the dispatchable power that we need,” he said.

    “But I’m just doing my best to protect the public interest in a careful and prudent way, recognising that 2022 is four years away, it’s not a long time.”

    Mr Turnbull’s acknowledgement will empower opponents of the government plan to force Liddell’s owner, AGL Energy, to sell the plant to an interested operator such as Alinta Energy or Delta Electricity, or keep it running for a few more years itself.

    EnergyAustralia reacted angrily on Thursday after speculation swirled that it, too, was interested in Liddell.

    Managing director Catherine Tanna said the sector should be focused on the future and new technologies, not the past.

    “Rather than preserving geriatric assets, we should be planning for the generation fleet of the future,” she said. “It’s time we moved on from debating the retirement of one power plant.

    “AGL bought Liddell in 2014 and has done the right thing, giving the market seven years’ notice of the plant’s closure. Surely, as an experienced operator, it is best placed to decide the economic life of an asset.”

    Concerns about energy reliability

    Opposition energy spokesman Mark Butler said “no one should be fooled that the Prime Minister’s interest in extending Liddell is due to real concerns about energy reliability”.

    AGL wants to decommission the plant in 2022 and replace the lost capacity with clean energy sources.

    Mr Turnbull, who is resisting internal pressure to build a new coal-fired power station, told the Financial Review there was “a very strong” public interest argument to keep Liddell going for a few more years.

    “Clearly we don’t want to have another (capacity) hiatus like we had with the closure of Hazelwood,” he said.

    “I recognise that if we get the NEG agreed in April, it will bring in more dispatchable power which may well…fill the dispatchability gap between 2022 and when Snowy starts.

    “But obviously, as a matter of prudence and practicality, it would be better if Liddell kept going for a few more years at least until Snowy 2.0 comes on and is fully operational by 2025.”

    Mr Turnbull took issue with the rebels led by Tony Abbott who argue that if the government is prepared to spend billions upgrading the Snowy-Hydro, then it should also build a so-called clean coal plant.

    “The Snowy Mountains scheme is government owned, it has always been government owned,” Mr Turnbull said.

    “We clearly need more storage in Australia,that is obvious.

    “I have revised a very old and in some quarters forgotten idea for Snowy but the fact is that if the government doesn’t do it, it doesn’t happen at all, it’s a government owned scheme.”

  38. OldOzzie

    AGL putting public last, says ACCC

    AGL continues to defy pressure from the Turnbull government to sell its ageing Liddell power plant as the competition watchdog blasted the energy giant saying it ignored the public interest in past business decisions and that failing to sell Liddell to one of three interested buyers would disadvantage consumers.

    The Australian can confirm Chinese conglomerate Shandong Ruyi remains interested in buying the 1800-megawatt Hunter Valley plant, and would seek to conduct due diligence with Alinta Energy and Delta Electricity, if allowed by AGL.

    The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission said it could not force AGL to sell the plant, but there was no question that doing so would be in the interests of consumers.

    “It is clearly pro-competitive and good for consumers if one of those companies gets hold of ­Liddell,” ACCC chairman Rod Sims told The Australian.

    His comments come as AGL chief executive Andy Vesey warned that interference in the market by the government would raise issues of ‘‘sovereign risk’’ that could deter investment in new energy assets.

    In an interview with Fairfax Media today, Mr Vesey said interest in Liddell from rival Alinta Energy had been limited to a phone call on Tuesday night from Alinta boss Jeff Dimery and a follow-up email on Wednesday. Mr Vesey said Alinta had indicated in the email a ‘‘desire to engage in a potential acquisition” of Liddell and asked about the purchase process. Mr Vesey said he had replied ‘‘we are not in the process of selling so there is no process’’.

    But Mr Vesey added that any company was free to submit a proposal to buy Liddell and that AGL had an obligation to consider all serious offers. If Alinta could “meet our expectations about its value today and the value we have forward, then they need to put forward a bona fide bid but that hasn’t happened yet’’, he said.

    Mr Sims said AGL “play it hard” and the company had a history of ­pursuing its business interests without considering what was best for the public. Mr Sims cited a “classic case” in 2015 when AGL bought 254 petajoules of gas from QGC, ostensibly for the domestic market, then onsold it to exporter GLNG at a profit.

    “AGL play it hard. They are very much focused on maximising shareholder value. That’s what they are there to do. I understand that. It’s hard to criticise a commercial company trying to maximise profit,” Mr Sims said.

    But they really do come down on one side of the ­ledger. I know that’s a controversial thing to say.

    “We do observe companies out there. And some of them will balance their commercial and public interests a bit more than others. And some of them will be companies that really just pursue their own best interests. And I’ve certainly seen cases of that with AGL, where they are quite happy to not give much thought to the public interest.”

    AGL Energy said last year that the 2015 decision to contract domestic gas to the Santos-led Gladstone LNG project would not have been struck had it been known the Hazelwood power station in Victoria was going to close or that Exxon Mobil was planning to cut Bass Strait production.

    GRAPHIC: The coal retreat

    The company said it would have made more money had it sold the gas domestically and would have been in a better position to service is customers.

    Mr Sims said competition laws could not force a business to sell an asset, even if it would strengthen competition, because rival businesses could pursue other opportunities in the market.

    Alinta Energy said it was seeking “exclusive due diligence” rights from AGL. Shandong Riyu, whose representative emailed the Prime Minister’s office last year indicating its potential interest in the ­station, would partner state-owned energy giant Huaneng Power if a bid eventuated.

    The company, said to be “bruised” by the political fallout of its $240 million purchase ­of ­Cubbie Station, would consider buying Liddell only if it was supported by the government and its involvement didn’t attract controversy.

    Shandong Riyu executives are understood to be frustrated that it has not been able to get a foothold in the Australian ­energy market after proposing a 20MW solar farm in Queensland’s southwest but failing to strike a deal with the Palaszczuk government’s Ergon Energy.

    The company has been talking to Ergon Energy for the past 18 months about building a solar farm near Cubbie Station in Queensland’s Dirranbandi, but negotiations have stalled.

    Over the same time, Shandong Ruyi completed a 1320MW low-emissions coal-fired plant in ­Pakistan, which it is operating with Huaneng Power. The Australian revealed last week an executive of Shandong Riyu met Treasurer Scott Morrison last year to detail its interest in entering the energy market.

    Alinta’s chief Mr Dimery, who has flagged spending $1 billion to take over Liddell, ­acknowledged AGL would be ­reluctant to sell to a rival energy company, and the ­potential for a deal would come down to the quality of the offer.

    He said Alinta would put an offer based on a set of transparent assumptions. It was hoped the AGL board would then agree to allow exclusive due diligence to Alinta, “and then we can go unconditional on our bid when we can firm up our assumptions”.

    Mr Dimery said Alinta’s ability to secure long-term power supply deals with Manufacturing Australia members, and its established corporate structure in the energy market, would give it an edge.

    Delta Electricity said it was also a serious buyer, if AGL was willing to sell. “I would have thought that opens up a competitive process,” Delta company secretary Steve Gurney said. Delta always looked for business opportunities and “running coal-fired power stations like Liddell is our core business”.

    Manufacturers Australia chief executive James Fazzino, who is working with Alinta to secure buyers for Liddell’s power in the event that it buys the plant, confirmed he was not talking to any of the other interested parties.

    AGL has so far resisted interest from potential buyers, saying it needs to retain Liddell to supply energy to customers until its closure in 2022. The energy giant says it also needs the Liddell site ­beyond 2022 as part of its planned replacement strategy involving ­renewables, gas and battery ­storage. Independent analysis prepared for AGL last year suggested it would cost $920m to ­extend the plant’s life by five years at a ­reduced 1000MW output.

    Resources Minister Matt Canavan said he was “not going to take AGL’s figures at face value”, and urged the company to test the market. “This rubbish that they haven’t seen an offer — what does that mean? That you’re welcome to drive past the house, but you’re not allowed an inspection or building and pest report?

    “I mean, if they are serious here, they’ll put it on the market, they’ll open up their books, they’ll let ­people do due diligence.”

    Mr Vesey admitted that AGL’s shift away from fossil fuels had drawn political fire but he said the company’s strategy was the right thing to do for shareholders and the environment.

    ‘‘Somebody has to be on the bleeding edge,’’ he said. ‘‘We [AGL] are going to be the biggest emitter of [carbon dioxide] — that means we are going to need to be responsible, and take action.’’

  39. yarpos

    In the table, Stages 2+3 Wind and solar. Installed 750MW Capacity 40-600MW.

    How can the bottom number not be zero? night time, no wind, it happens

    How can the top number be 600? Capacity factor for wind and solar is about 30-40%. Going with the optimistic figure (that seems to be what they do) that equates to 300MW

    A realistic range would be 0-300MW if you are planning for periods of high demand and you actually want to have power, vs exercising wishful thinking for a report.

  40. Robber Baron

    Oh look, Audrey is wearing Gillian Triggs’ power wardrobe of pearl necklace and jacket…the uniform of the power-hungry feminist Marxist.

  41. duncanm

    Vesey really does give the game away by refusing to sell Liddell.

    There are three explanations I can think of.

    It has to be gone as part of their plan to control prices.
    It has to be gone in order to continue to expand and ride the enewballs train.
    They were writing it off, and valuing it on the market would trash their internal valuation.

  42. OldOzzie

    Coal dream to fail, says Snowy Hydro chief

    Snowy Hydro chief executive Paul Broad has warned federal ministers would “do their dough” if they bowed to the self-styled Monash Forum of coalition backbenchers who demand the government build a new coal-fired power station.

    Mr Broad said Scott Morrison was correct in saying a new coal-fired plant meeting higher emissions targets than existing ones would not be financially viable.

    Mr Broad told The Australian he was not entering the political debate, but making factual observations based on the economics of the energy market that Snowy Hydro had analysed carefully.

    “The economics of this do not add up,” he said. “Someone would lose all their money.”

    Mr Broad revealed Snowy Hydro, previously owned by the NSW, Victorian and federal governments but in the process of becoming solely owned by Canberra, had at one stage looked at whether it might be worth buying the Liddell power station in NSW, now owned by AGL. But at that stage the ownership structure of Liddell still involved a state-owned stake, and the plan did not proceed.

    Mr Broad said Snowy Hydro would not be interested in Liddell today because “now we’re doing Snowy 2.0”, referring to the proposed $4.5 billion pumped-hydro project to store and re-sell solar and wind energy, which is championed by Malcolm Turnbull.

    “Our balance sheet can only do so much,” Mr Broad said. “We strongly believe the world has moved over to renewables.”

    The Monash Forum believes the government should build a $4 billion “Hazelwood 2.0” power station in Victoria’s Latrobe Valley.

    The group dubs it ­“Hazelwood 2.0” in an effort to contrast it with the similar cost of Snowy 2.0. “If the government can intervene to build Snowy 2.0, why not intervene to build Hazelwood 2.0 on the site of the coal-fired power station in Victoria that is now being dismantled?” its manifesto asks. But Mr Broad said the cost of producing electricity from a new coal plant would be $70-$90 per megawatt hour, whereas wind and solar now cost $40-$50 per MW/h.

    “World A is a non-decarbonised world,” Mr Broad said. “World B is a decarbonised world. We have moved away from World A. If the Monash group thinks we haven’t, that’s their problem. If they want to build it, they’ll do their dough.”

    If the Alinta Energy group were to buy Liddell “we’d love it”, he said. It would add to off-peak supply and make it cheaper to pump water uphill for Snowy 2.0.

  43. Roger.

    Zibelman is so dumb/ideologically blinded she said the NEM didn’t have a supply issue but a demand issue that could be “managed”, i.e. big users like aluminium smelters would be paid to shut down during peak times.

    Sheer lunacy.

    Audrey, if we had more reliable supply there wouldn’t be a need for demand “management”.

    Thank God the government has sidelined her… as much as it can, that is.

  44. duncanm

    But Mr Broad said the cost of producing electricity from a new coal plant would be $70-$90 per megawatt hour, whereas wind and solar now cost $40-$50 per MW/h.

    he is correct – but of course he’s not telling the whole story.

    Jo Nova has a nice recent unpacking of Levelized Cost of Electricity over time for various technologies.

    Coal power is cheaper the older it gets and averages about 75% capacity.

  45. RobK

    If the Alinta Energy group were to buy Liddell “we’d love it”, he said. It would add to off-peak supply and make it cheaper to pump water uphill for Snowy 2.0.
    He is confirming that pumped hydro actually works best with predictable baseload. He is not acknowledging that the continued baseload would also keep peak load more manageable. He is not acknowledging that the snowy 2.0 is actually not adding new turbine capacity, just extending the amount of energy storable.
    His thinking is based on the premise of decarbonization which implies a higher energy cost which he needs to make a business case for Snowy 2.0, otherwise it wount stack up, just like the previous 2 feasibility studies done years ago.

  46. RobK

    But Mr Broad said the cost of producing electricity from a new coal plant would be $70-$90 per megawatt hour, whereas wind and solar now cost $40-$50 per MW/h.(the unit is MWh)
    If this is the case, why do we need to sudsidise? The man is making political propaganda dispite his claim to the contrary.

  47. RobK

    Mr Broad didn’t say what price snowy 2.0 can store energy for. That would be telling.

  48. Leo G

    Mr Broad didn’t say what price snowy 2.0 can store energy for. That would be telling.

    I expect the price depends on the real source of the energy used by Snowy 2.0, which is likely to be mainly coal-fired generation.

  49. RobK

    Leo G,
    I meant what is snowy 2.0’s cost of storage to add onto the input cost of energy.

  50. yarpos

    “But Mr Broad said the cost of producing electricity from a new coal plant would be $70-$90 per megawatt hour, whereas wind and solar now cost $40-$50 per MW/h.(the unit is MWh)”

    a) they are not disclosing the full cost of renewables, and the surrounding circulation of funny money

    b) it doesnt really matter what renewables cost when they can vary and dissapear at the whim of the weather and with the setting sun. There is no widely deployable grid scale storage solution.

  51. duncanm

    re: Snowy2.0

    if you assume the cost of the scheme is $0, and you believe the $40-50/MWh of wind and solar, power out of the Snowy scheme will be about 50% due solely to losses in pumping and recovery.

    So Snowy 2.0 power will be line-ball cost with Mr Broad’s estimates of shiny new coal power.

    And that’s assuming we don’t spend billions making snowy2.0

  52. duncanm

    Peter
    #2679718, posted on April 6, 2018 at 11:07 am
    I like Pickerings take on things.
    http://pickeringpost.com/story/the-sunday-school-pair-is-not-after-turnbull-well-not-just-yet/8199

    I usually consider Pickering a bit of an unhinged nut.. but he certainly nailed that argument.

  53. Paul

    It’s just the AFR returning to its Fairfax roots. “Successful businesses bad, losers good”

  54. OldOzzie

    GREG SHERIDAN
    Coalition plays energy policy like a caretaker government

    Unless they were planning to make squillions out of direct government subsidies, no foreign investor would have any reason to go within a hundred of miles of the Australian energy market after the government’s display yesterday.

    The Turnbull government’s energy narrative has completely collapsed in a welter of indecipherable internal contradictions and ridiculous figures plucked from the air in a way that inevitably brings to mind the last days of the Gillard-Rudd years.

    It was only five minutes ago that the Prime Minister was lamenting the fact that Australia is the world’s biggest coal exporter yet does nothing clever or hi-tech in coal-fired power stations.

    But now Scott Morrison says that’s all a waste of time because these new coal-fired power stations are way too expensive anyway.

    Energy Minister Josh Frydenberg, a good man being burned up in a hopeless cause, tells us the market will decide the future of coal, yet then goes on to tell us exactly how much of future energy generation will be provided by coal, gas, wind, etc.

    The contradictions are endless. Why on earth now would anyone consider investing in a new coal-fired power station after the government, allegedly a friend of the coal industry, has just spent the day trashing the very idea of new coal-fired power stations?

    Frydenberg can supposedly tell us exactly how much the National Energy Guarantee will save consumers, yet allegedly the composition of the energy sector is up to the market.

    It is of course standard free-market practice for a government to step in where there is market failure. The politics of Australia clearly makes it politically impossible for any company to invest in a new coal-fired power plant.

    So it is perfectly respectable for a government to make the investment instead.

    The government’s pathetic hope that an existing station might limp on for a few extra years does absolutely nothing for Australia’s long-term energy generation.

    All this talk about the market deciding is contradicted by every other action the government takes. Is the market deciding Snowy Hydro 2.0? Is it deciding the renewable energy target?

    How can it be that China, Japan and Germany are building so many new high-energy, low-­emission coal-fired power plants? Have they not had the benefit of Scott Morrison’s analysis?

    Matt Canavan tells us that coal doesn’t need subsidies. That might be right on pure economics. But the government is behind 53 to 47 in the polls. What company would risk a coal investment when it is vetoed by the other side of politics?

    A government that had a long-term vision for energy, and even a modicum of political ruthlessness, would fast-track the development of such a coal-fired power station and sign irrevocable commercial contracts with the private companies involved.

    An incoming Labor government would then have the choice of paying billions to unwind the contracts, or going ahead and implementing Coalition policies.

    This is the kind of policy ruthlessness Labor shows all the time — NDIS, Gonski and a million other examples.

    It’s very likely this government will lose at the next election.

    The question is: will it fight for anything in the meantime, will it try to change the nature of the national debate on any issue?

  55. RobK

    Thanks Old Ozzie,
    Sherridan sums up the situation well.

  56. RobK

    Duncanm,
    Re; snowy 2.0.
    Correct. Presently, RE is dependent on coal for parasitic sudsidies. As RE penetration increases the cost to keep the grid functional increases because the baseload stabilty and capacity is deminished. Also, importantly, any remaining ablity for coal to subsidise what is by then a massive RE industry, will be spent and RE is left with higher pricing the only mechanism to replace worn out equipment .

  57. H B Bear

    LOL – Waffleworth caretaker government. It isn’t even capable of doing that.

  58. Dr Faustus

    Mr Broad said the cost of producing electricity from a new coal plant would be $70-$90 per megawatt hour, whereas wind and solar now cost $40-$50 per MW/h.(the unit is MWh)”

    Mr Broad’s bum is twitching like a rabbit’s nose.

    Recent renewable auctions bought long term power at $50+ /MWh – without firming support. AGL recently gave guidance to the market of $100+/MWh for new-build, gas-firmed renewable.

    Coal-fired at $70-$90/MWh needs no firming – in fact it provides firming, via ancilliary services.

    Mr Broad would like to sell Snowy 2.0 ‘hydro’ power for firming at distress prices of $200+/MWh.

  59. Dr Faustus

    AGL chief executive Andy Vesey warned that interference in the market by the government would raise issues of ‘‘sovereign risk’’ that could deter investment in new energy assets.

    Andy Vesey is only concerned about sovereign risk to his own subsidised asset class.

    The policy uncertainty created by Australian governments around coal has already created sufficient sovereign risk to cripple any ‘technology agnostic’ investment in HELE coal generation.

    This is evidenced by Finkel’s finding that renewables in Australia can be funded at 6%, as opposed to coal at 17%, because policy risk. This is a primary reason why projections of new-build coal in Australia show $70 to $90/MWh as opposed to ~$40/MWh in India and China.

    Australia is listening to a Greek Chorus of shiny-faced carpetbaggers and thieves.

  60. RobK

    Australia is listening to a Greek Chorus of shiny-faced carpetbaggers and thieves.
    Well put, as is the rest of your comment.

  61. OldOzzie

    The Man Speaks with Forked Tongue

    AGL chief Andy Vesey defends plans to shutter Liddell power plant in 2022

    AGL chief executive Andy Vesey has defended the company’s plan to shut its Liddell power plant, saying plans for the site after 2022 would help drive down energy prices.

    Mr Vesey told a business and government audience in Sydney that converting the existing generators and adding battery and pumped hydro on the site at Lake Liddell would allow the development of more renewable energy sources across the market.

    AGL (AGL) has been under pressure from the Federal Government to extend the life of the plant beyond it’s scheduled closure date of 2022, or to consider a sale, with three rival generators expressing interest in buying the 1,760 MW plant.

    But Mr Vesey said Liddell was an “extremely valuable” part of AGL’s generation portfolio until 2022 and an important part of its plans.

    Mr Vesey told the Committee for Economic Development of Australia that the company had made those plans in anticipation of the government completing its signature National Energy Guarantee policy. Its aims of directing investment into new capacity that met both reliability and emissions targets at affordable prices was “doable”.

    The only way to drive down electricity prices was by adding more generation to the mix, Mr Vesey said.

    The comments came as Glencore’s global coal chief Peter Freyberg said AGL Energy’s planned closure of the Liddell coal-fired power plant in the Hunter Valley would boost power prices in a similar way to that of the closure of the Hazelwood brown coal plant in Victoria last year.

    Mr Freyberg said latest coal-fired power technology should be part of Australia’s future power generation.

    “Electricity costs jumped last year when Victorian power generator Hazelwood was shut, and we shouldn’t be surprised when there is another electricity price jump if Liddell closes in a few years’ time,” Mr Freyberg, the mining and trading giants most senior local executive, told a lunch at the Hunter Valley coal festival.

    Last week, the Australian Energy Regulator said the Hazelwood closure had been largely responsible for 2017’s doubling of power prices in NSW and Victoria.

    “We need a national energy policy that delivers on price and delivers on reliability,” Mr Freyberg said.

    “The reality is coal currently underpins energy security in Australia. If we are to sustain a strong economy going forward, we should factor in high efficiency, low emission coal into our future energy options.”

    He said the National Energy Guarantee was a good first step and Glencore would look at the merits of the plan when the details became known.

  62. Dr Faustus

    But Mr Vesey said Liddell was an “extremely valuable” part of AGL’s generation portfolio until 2022 and an important part of its plans.

    Mr Vesey told the Committee for Economic Development of Australia that the company had made those plans in anticipation of the government completing its signature National Energy Guarantee policy.

    Translation: Listen Dickhead, any more of this ‘national interest’ bullshit about keeping Liddel open, and I will bring your pretty, election-winning National Energy Guarantee whateverthefuck, thingo crashing down around your fuck’n ears. Capisce?

  63. egg_

    Translation: Listen Dickhead, any more of this ‘national interest’ bullshit about keeping Liddel open, and I will bring your pretty, election-winning National Energy Guarantee whateverthefuck, thingo crashing down around your fuck’n ears. Capisce?

    Trumble sets the field for the ENRONers to move in and then complains.

  64. Any party that did this would be in office for ever

    Any politician who dead this would die due to “undiagnosed heart problems”. Just sayin’.

  65. win

    And with all this cheap electricity available we can then fire up the Trade schools for the younger generation restart our manufacturing industries and reverses the tilt on Paul Keatings” level playing field”. How proud Keating must be at how he” spread the wealth” to created the Chinese billiuonaire class.

  66. You people have forgotten that this magic utility, no matter how it is generated, does not just distribute itself. Look at Victoria and S.A., both states have had failures in the distribution because of lack of maintainance-it is OK to hand it all over to greedy businessmen who take delight in profits from a captive public but someone has to take responsibility and pay to keep that part of it functioning.

  67. Old Irrelevant me

    The only baseload 24/7 solar power to be found anyplace is CST concentrated Solar Thermal (they make steam) Gismodo did a piece back in Aug 17 saying SA was getting a 150mw unit for $650Mil So that is one tenth of what is presently being pushed out of Liddell. Then we’d need another 9 to catch up is that not right? Solar photovoltaic work fine in sunny weather, Wind works sort of fine in windy weather (should have been used to generate steam and the they’d not have such a sync issue) and the combination of the two haven’t picked up much on the Aemo stage. A fair old siege is being staged in cities and towns at present to usurp the use of your rooftops for the companies solar arrays, may deliver a few extra MW’s to the cause, but that’s a big if. Everything we have it would seem should have been shoved through a steam converter to ensure the grid stays sync’d yet they haven’t done that. So unless they the interested parties suddenly decide to invest in ? (I’ve no idea but I’d say to ensure we get through at least a 5day inclement weather east coast event we’d have to triple the number of CSt’s) the other nine CST plants missing from todays expectations, we are surely to start blackouts in 2022 when Liddell closes. It just seems we’d be better off pushing for a few coal units rather than await another fan farm.

  68. egg_

    Old Irrelevant me
    #2681104, posted on April 7, 2018 at 8:16 pm

    Didn’t a new US concentrated solar thermal plant have a major maintenance/infrastrucure cost blowout making it shaky financially?

  69. Old Irrelevant me

    Also whilst we’re having a spray, Jemalong near Forbes has a 1.1mw unit on trial 5 towers 3.500 heliostats (mirrors) for all that $20m to get going. 535*c to generate steam 24/7
    Newcastle has a 2 towered unit with 450 heliostats and don’t mention an output? yet they do mention $87m to do so. these two run at a super critical 1000*c must be making something from them. yes another trial.
    must be more out there not doing much.

  70. egg_

    In terms of environmental impacts beyond CO2, Ivanpah has been linked to 3,500 bird deaths. Environmentalists have also criticized Ivanpah for its proximity to some endangered species such as the desert tortoise.

  71. Old Irrelevant me

    Oh 44mw at Kogan creek QLD and I should have had this one on the first post a 9.4mw unit at Liddell. Sorry.

  72. egg_

    Transitional technology?
    Critics rightly note that Ivanpah’s natural gas use and associated emissions are far higher than originally anticipated, with gas-fired auxiliary power now at times needed 4.5 hours per day rather than one as originally expected. Some critics specifically attack the use of natural gas with solar as “dirty power.”

    Indeed, natural gas is a nonrenewable fossil fuel whose use causes CO2 and methane emissions. However, unless we expect to switch to completely renewable fuels overnight, which is unrealistic, fossil fuels will remain a major part of our energy mix in the decades ahead.

  73. Old Irrelevant me

    Strewth Egg, if Ivanpah can use the word GIANT to describe 337mw then what superlative should we use for our everyday coalfired power plant, It’s gonna be a biggie.
    That would also be something not mentioned when a heat storm hits, our heatwaves may be exasperated by the super heated air of all those CST units needed to supply us with power. You probably don’t get that with a coal unit.

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