President Strange Trump, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Donald

It is never good for one’s blood pressure to get too annoyed about events. In recent years I have become increasingly concerned and annoyed about the return of communism through trendy new sorties such as gender, diversity, race and identify politics. What was 15 years ago political correctness has morphed into a much more hard line perversion by former communists and their apologists to not only drown out alternative voices but actively subvert institutions which once upheld traditional western values. Our institutions – from universities and throughout society – have been captured within (by treachery) rather than externally. The taxpayer continues to subsidise those who wish harm to western values, history and institutions while also subsidising people and organisations intent on destroying dissenting voices. This is terribly annoying and infuriating. It is achieved by exaggerating the harms done in the name of western civilisation while underplaying the benefits.

I know that many people – libertarians, conservatives etc – who railed against this trend saw the election of Donald Trump – or, rather, the rejection of Hillary Clinton – as at least a sign of some backlash – perhaps a spine will grow in those who might defend the legacy left by some many earlier generations?

I thought (and continue to think) Trump was a false ‘prophet’, a buffoon who would achieve the opposite of those hopes.

But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary evil, a product of the decline of the west. He may well be the spark that inspires others to reject the stasis that has enveloped many western developed countries which have fallen into a period of self loathing.

Trump’s meeting with Kim Jong-Un may be a false dawn for the future of the Hermit Kingdom. But it’s more promising than any other action in that space since the Korean War.

So let’s play it out, and watch brains explode when Trump is elected for a second term. I will not worry and I have learned to love the Donald.

About Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus

I'm a retired general who occasionally gets called back to save the republic before returning to my plough.
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223 Responses to President Strange Trump, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Donald

  1. Alexi the Conservative Russian

    Lucy are you really trying to say “sorry I was mistaken” but just couldn’t get there? Anyway I am in agreement with you. Imagine if our Anzac heroes could come back today, how disillusioned they would be. “Why did I give my life to this mediocrity”.

  2. stackja

    There are two DT. The real DT and the MSM DT.

  3. Bruce of Newcastle

    Soon, LQC, you will be almost as right wing as a mainstream Republican voter.

    “His approval ratings within his own party are high. If you look today, 87 percent of Republicans give him a positive approval rating. … Ronald Reagan wasn’t this high. Jack Kennedy wasn’t this high.”

    There you go Cinci, half of America likes this guy. The other half of course hates the air he breathes and the good soil he walks upon.

    GOP wants Trump in 2020, more popular than Obama, JFK, Reagan

  4. Bruce of Newcastle

    Alas I stuffed up the link to the Examiner story. Here it is again:

    GOP wants Trump in 2020, more popular than Obama, JFK, Reagan

  5. .

    monty told me that Trump is a “bomb-throwing anarchist totalitarian” with “no effectiveness who is ripping up institutions” and “has no respect for the constitution by appointing constitutionalist jurist Gorusch”.

    Or something. He stopped jerking about on the ground, we covered him with a blanket and then he drooled for about five minutes and then slept it off.

  6. Iampeter

    Its important to remain positive but the Trump administration has so far turned out mich worse than anticipated. They couldn’t repeal obamacare, passed a trillion dollar spending bill like obama, regulating trade and immigration even more than obama did and the only people facing a special counsel is Trump himself while Hillary and Comey sell books. Now this farcical NK summit. It would’ve been better for Hillary to win at this point.
    Now all of this is because Trump was always the next step in the decline of political discourse and you see this with people focussing on “identity politics” or whatever instead of actual politics.
    The progressives have moved into these weird non-issues because they’ve won every actual political issue such that no matter who is in office we get collectivist government. They have nothing else to talk about. Conservatives have followed them into these issues because they have no actual political ideas and so just follow progressives around.
    Until even the basics of actual political discourse are rediscovered and someone in the mainstream starts advocating actual alternatives to the left we will keep getting disasters like Trump as conservatives fight their imaginary strawmen and the left continues to win by default.

  7. Death Giraffe

    I have learned to love the Donald.

    ..
    I don’t think you are quite there yet.
    A good tentative first step though.
    With time you may forget all the really stupid shit you have dribbled these last three years and convince yourself you were on board from the start, but just being prudent in your public comments.
    Congratulations.

  8. .

    peter

    I reckon he turned out MUCH BETTER than expected.

    You’re right about tariffs, debt and deficit of course.

    The summit might be BS but if he pulls it off, then we finally win the Korean War. Given how close we’ve been to accidental and intentional nuclear war since 1963, I’m happy for Trump to have a win here.

    I think the Comeygate/drain the swamp stuff is a real win. They’re like Tamanny Hall but a lot worse.

    Of course, the best way to get rid of government corruption is to have less government.

  9. calli

    I have learned to love the Donald.

    Did they make you face your greatest fear first?

  10. .

    Wrong movie calli.

    You’re looking for Vera Lynn, not Ludovico.

  11. Leo G

    So let’s play it out, and watch brains explode when Trump is elected for a second term.

    Aren’t you forgetting the countdown on the Special Council doomsday device which was triggered by the back door nuclear attack by Jack D Ripper Comey on Hillary’s 2016 election prospects?

  12. struth

    Apology accepted.

    By the way, the looney libertarians commenting have some way to go.
    They’ll never let facts and the real world TRUMP their theories.

  13. .

    Do you remember what Clemenceau once said, Leo?

  14. calli

    I was thinking rats and Burton’s dulcet tones, Dot. 🐀

  15. Tom

    LQC, ask yourself this: Knowing the odds stacked against him, who else but an arrogant, self-assured, highly intelligent alpha male billionaire businessman would even dream of hatching a plan to run for president to clean out the corruption in Washington politics and restore America’s global economic and political leadership?

    It’s a bigger story in American history than the assassination of Lincoln and JFK.

  16. Empire 5:5

    So let’s play it out, and watch brains explode when Trump is elected for a second term. I will not worry and I have learned to love the Donald.

    LQC

    Gold Star + Elephant Stamp.

    Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending.
    You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.

    St Augustine

  17. Tom

    Do you remember what Clemenceau once said, Leo?

    “War is too important to be left to politicians.”

    — General Jack Ripper [Sterling Hayden], Dr Strangelove.

  18. Egor

    The media keeps confusing Trump with a conservative Republican. He doesn’t have his legislation written by the CoC or relevant lobbyists so he can’t be UniParty. He’s called out free trade as pretend, that only took 50 years in America. The Republican bow tie set hate his guts at least as much as the Democrats.
    This is a very good sign.

  19. Roger

    I will not worry and I have learned to love the Donald.

    The only thing that worries me about Trump is what his presidency means for ANZUS.

    All Australians should worry about that since we can’t defend ourselves.

  20. Exit Stage Right

    Welcome aboard the Trump train Lucy. Wasn’t that hard, was it?
    Now to get Mal to see the light.

  21. NB

    Iampeter, your comment makes a lot of sense. And yet I see things quite differently – depending on my mood. For example:
    – The EU is failing and will have to redesign itself to the point where the United Socialist Republic of Europe becomes unlikely. That is years of left energy down the drain.
    – Climate change is fast becoming recognised as the joke that it is. Another serious loss of energy for the left, and a failure that has provided an insight into institutional capture that should make the left uncomfortable.
    – Education is being liberated from captured institutions by the internet. Just when the left have revealed the degree to which they have infiltrated our schools and universities, other options are becoming seriously competitive.
    – More generally, technological change is making big government less and less necessary. While this might take some time to play out, libertarians in particular have good reason to be hopeful.
    – The internet has allowed us to bypass traditional media outlets. Popular debates that only recently were unimaginable are now quite prominent.
    – Since the 8th of November 2016, the left have, for some unknowable reason, almost completely dropped their carefully crafted mask. They have shown to all how pervasive and crazy they really are. After such careful concealment, the current mania of the left is a blessing, and a revelation to those who did not know.
    In summary, at the moment it appears the left’s failures are failing, and their successes are failing too – as those successes must, as in most part they are built on air.
    Moreover, with Trump, it is possible Atlas is shrugging. It might take time, and the path might not be direct, but significant hope is not out of place.
    Cautions apply:
    First, the non-left need to generate points of discussion of their own. The left agenda control is startling.
    Second, libertarians need to be more vocal. They seem to cry in their soup. They are, of course, inherently non-institutional, and that is probably a weakness. But weaknesses can be endearing.

  22. .

    Exit Stage Right
    #2738534, posted on June 16, 2018 at 12:45 pm
    Welcome aboard the Trump train Lucy. Wasn’t that hard, was it?
    Now to get Mal to see the light.

    No kudos to me though. I won Malotto.

    He is out eternal kyrios kai basileus now.

  23. Faye

    President Trump is unique. One man is changing not only his country but also the world – for the betterment of the people! His swamp enemies are being exposed like never before. Their nice little earners of trillions are at stake and they would readily dispense with him if they could get away with it.
    But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary evil, a product of the decline of the west. He may well be the spark that inspires others to reject the stasis that has enveloped many western developed countries which have fallen into a period of self loathing.
    I object to your description of him as “a necessary evil”. I would call him “the necessary hero” who needn’t have put this burden upon himself and his family. However, he hated what was happening with Main Street America because of Wall Street Inc. sucking the lifeblood out of middle America and turning it into a rust bucket. President Trump has witnessed their actions for years.
    As far as the Fall of Western Civilization, I believe that the Right side of politics were asleep at the wheel whilst the Left gradually took over the children, the institutions, climate science and created the grievance industry.
    President Trump is “the necessary miracle”.

  24. nemkat

    Former Trump Campaign Manager Manafort Jailed for Alleged Witness Tampering, sez ABC TV News.

    Since he’s in jail, what’s with the ”Alleged”? Has the ABC become Trump compliant?

  25. struth

    I’ll break it down for you.
    Let them all come in, and just pay money to do so.
    Those that pay money to migrate will all be good citizens.
    Libertarian Policy 101.

  26. .

    You understand one of about six parts of the policy struth, better than naught from six I suppose.

  27. Empire 5:5

    The only thing that worries me about Trump is what his presidency means for ANZUS.

    All Australians should worry about that since we can’t defend ourselves.

    Our corrupt and cowardly leaders should have considered this before they colluded with Traitor44.

  28. nemkat

    Iampeter
    #2738470

    The progressives have moved into these weird non-issues because they’ve won every actual political issue such that no matter who is in office we get collectivist government. T

    For proof of this statement, see John T. Flynn’s The Roosevelt Myth, in particular, Chapter 6: The Dance of The Crackpots.
    http://www.unz.com/book/john_t_flynn__the-roosevelt-myth/

    Ideas that were rightly considered looney in the Thirties are now unquestionable.

  29. Empire 5:5

    Since he’s in jail, what’s with the ”Alleged”? Has the ABC become Trump compliant?

    Hyper-retard or liar?

    What is “bail”?
    What is required for a conviction to be recorded?
    What is “presumption of innocence”?

  30. NB

    .’s comment at #2738553, posted on June 16, 2018 at 12:58 pm:
    Smorgasboard.
    Thank you. I had subscribed to a couple of places where Leyonhjelm wrote but they dried up. This will be added to my subscription list.
    By the way, ., I can’t help but have a chuckle about your name, given my view on libertarians keeping themselves invisible!

  31. NB

    nemkat #2738570, posted on June 16, 2018 at 1:13 pm, provides link to The Unz Review.
    . #2738553, posted on June 16, 2018 at 12:58 pm, provides link to Lib Dem on YouTube.
    Gosh. Two useful sources of information in one day!

  32. cohenite

    But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary evil,

    No. Trump was just necessary, he’s not an evil and your patronising perspective oozes from that back-hander; stick your non mea culpa up your necessary arse.

  33. Entropy

    monty told me that Trump is a “bomb-throwing anarchist totalitarian” with “no effectiveness who is ripping up institutions” and “has no respect for the constitution by appointing constitutionalist jurist Gorusch”.

    Well that is so. Leaving aside some of anther rhetoric,Trump certainly is ripping up institutions, and he did appoint Gorusch. The question is, in his dear little heart, did Montz mean it in a good or bad way?

  34. Entropy

    Knowing the odds stacked against him, who else but an arrogant, self-assured, highly intelligent alpha male billionaire businessman would even dream of hatching a plan to run for president to clean out the corruption in Washington politics and restore America’s global economic and political leadership?

    I hope to hell that is what is going on, Tom. Otherwise the yanks have installed a narcissistic, nympho sociopathic bullshit artist in the White House. That is, business as usual.

  35. cohenite

    It would’ve been better for Hillary to win at this point.

    Stupid beyond belief, especially since your observations about conservatives being idealess and following lefties around is spot on.

    You don’t understand Trump, what he is and what he is doing so shut the fuck up about him and continue ripping into the faux conservatives and the commies.

  36. Makka

    It took a while LQC. You were as wrong as mUnty.

    Trump is an ugly change agent, thinks destructive renewal.

    You now need to apologise for all the nasty wrong tripe you posted here about Trump and those who support him and his Presidency.

    Get on with it.

  37. egg_

    a narcissistic, nympho sociopathic bullshit artist

    Caught Lazenby’s ‘Becoming Bond’ on SBS and that pretty much sums him up IMHO, even the interviewer questioned him if he was bullsh1tting at one point.

  38. Dr Fred Lenin

    Finally a leader with commonsense and courage Trump has called out the fascist elites of both parties and is destroying them ,he has shirtfronted the Chinese’s fascists and the Norks he has told the Canadian left and Mexican cartelist governments to get a life and stop bludgeing on the US and fronted the Fourth Reich ( EU) making them pay for their own defence and high tariffs nd again stop bludging on the zuSA , he is lining the Iranian fascists up for s beating and pulling out of the u.n.communist corruptocracy. He has helped hundreds of thousands of Americans get a meaningful job ,with black employment the highest for years ,he supports the military and police the protectors of the people . He has appointed judges who are law interpreters not indoctrinaters . He was criticised for his budget with no mention of the increased tax revenue from more jobs and higher sales , he has begun dismantling the climate scam and scrapped the Paris accord for the destruction of western civilisation . And he has only been there 18 months , the elites ,communist media and soros hate him so he must be a great patriotic leader.

  39. Cassie of Sydney

    “But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary evil, a product of the decline of the west. He may well be the spark that inspires others to reject the stasis that has enveloped many western developed countries which have fallen into a period of self loathing”….let me rephrase this…

    “But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary force for good, a last minute saviour of the western world. He is the spark that inspires the silent majority to rise up and reject the leftist stasis that has smothered and paralysed the western world, including Australia, for decades. It has done this by infiltrating and hijacking its institutions, from schools to universities to the media, by catastrophic social engineering which has pretty mush destroyed the family unit, by instituting welfare dependency which has created inter-generational welfarism, by allowing unfettered immigration of adherents of a death cult that will never ever assimilate, by smearing anyone who disagrees with the leftist narrative as racist, as homophobic, as islamophobic and the list goes on.”
    You’re nearly there Lucy, go on, be brave and cross over.

  40. cohenite

    Trump for the record has:

    Trod on the alarmist renewable scam
    Reinvigorated real energy sources
    Taken on the muslim mullahs
    Taken on china
    Reinvigorated the US economy with corporate tax cuts which had immediate effect and will have ongoing effect
    Taken on the corrupted elites in the fbi, doj, epa, irs etc which had been promoted by Obama the worst POTUS
    Taken on the msm and revealed it for the nest of traitorous commies they are
    Reinvigorated the US military the most importanct military in the world and which had been undermined by the magic negro
    Made numerous Hollywood dickheads look like the dickheads they
    Is dealing with the swine in the G7 and the eurotrash
    Is looking after Israel

    And that’s after a year and there are still bastards who whinge. Fuck off.

  41. Tom

    I hope to hell that is what is going on, Tom. Otherwise the yanks have installed a narcissistic, nympho sociopathic bullshit artist in the White House.

    Here’s an idea, Entropy: Judge Trump on his results. Unlike almost every politician who ever went to Washington, that’s what he wants you to do.

  42. John Constantine

    The godless commos lurking in the republican party will be out to sabotage the Trumpnado for the midterms.

    How low will they go?.

    The anti-Trump forces will be leaking like Leaky Mcleakface bishop leaked against Abbott and backgrounding the forces of Stalin like their turnbullites worked with Get-Up to sabotage non lefty political hopes.

    “The Saturday Paper‘s source was Simon Sheikh, former national director of GetUp!, who told the newspaper that Mr Pyne called the activist group personally to request an email and phone campaign to support Mr Turnbull.

    Mr Pyne reportedly offered to provide GetUp! with a list of undecided MPs to lobby to support Mr Turnbull’s leadership of the Liberal Party.”

    https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national/2017/10/29/christopher-pyne-getup/

    Imagine having to deal with backstabbing Stalinist orcs like this.

    Comrade sleeper agent Maaaaates.

  43. Leo G

    Tom posted at 12:28 pm

    Do you remember what Clemenceau once said, Leo?
    “War is too important to be left to politicians.”
    — General Jack Ripper [Sterling Hayden], Dr Strangelove.

    My preference-

    There is no passion like that of a functionary for his function.

    Not a quote used in Dr Strangelove, but relevant. Robert Mueller reminds me of Bomb Number 20 in Carpenter’s Dark Star, the stellar bomb that is persuaded to subject all knowledge to scrutiny and subsequently determines it can “let there be light” only by detonating.

  44. Empire 5:5

    “I didn’t need to do this.”

  45. Dr Fred Lenin

    What a great speech ,in years to come will be alongside the Gettysburg address as America’s greatest speeches . What a difference between him and the bloody incompetent polliemuppets we get the last four PMs we’ve had,availed foreign affairs muppet, a theiving lying lawyer a failed priest who fitted up Hanson followed by. Perr]ennial failure in the lawtrade ,merchant banking ,and now a failed prime monster. We definately need to improve the quality of our elected “leaders” ,career politicians are rubbish , total merde, the bottom of the barrel .

  46. .

    Actually, Turnbull should have stuck to civil liberties cases and banking.

    “Be a teacher, Richard…”

  47. stackja

    DT is annoying all the right people.

  48. Dr Fred Lenin

    Turnbulls banking career came to an abrupt halt when he and that whitlam prick got involved with Adler the con man ,even goldman sachs couldn’t wear that ,which shows how odious Adler was and how stupid turnbull and whitlam junior were . Wasn’t Adler in bed with Richo and rivkin in the burning industry ?and Swiss banking numbered accounts

  49. mh

    Quinny, keep up the good fight against the shopping bag nazis. You’re good at that.

  50. A Lurker

    Trump = Cometh the Hour, Cometh the Man.

  51. You will come to a different conclusion if you change your perspective.
    Yuri Bezmenov defected to Canada in the early eighties and gave this interview in 1984.
    The “decline of the West” is not an accident or quirk of fate. It has been carefully and meticulously planned. The execution has taken decades, and in 1984 the first stage “demoralisation” was complete and in teh interim the second stage of destabilisation has progressed nearly to fruition.
    The Council on Foreign Relations, the Bilderberg Society and the Club of Rome have been successful in creating the UN wit h its Agenda 21, and the long march through the institutions. The corruption of the entire government of the United States, including the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, large swathes of Congress and the Senate, which took place for eight years since 2008 was intended to continue for another eight under auspices of the Clinton Foundation. A plan to transfer 25% of America’s Uranium to Russia was intended for Iranian facilities in Syria for the job of wiping out Israel and creating the need in the public perception for retaliation (the nukes made from American U232 shipped for the states to Russia) against Russia.
    But wiser heads in the US military were savvy of the plan, and organised the successful election of a leader who could take this wicked cabal to task.
    So far ISIS has met defeat, Saudi Arabia has been cunningly persuaded to change its philosophy of governance, and the CIA black ops have been kicked out of North Korea and Armenia. Next the upcoming overthrow of the Ayatollahs in Iran will be encouraged, and mutual respect will be achieved with the Russian Federation. Fair free trade will eventually be established in spite of opposition from corrupt governments.
    It will take a generation to turn the course of history around in America, and exposure of the the most vile master plan in the history of the human race will persuade patriots in the UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand to reject the corruption and deceit in those countries as well.
    Donald J. Trump was chosen for this task by patriots in the US military establishment. A civil war between the corrupt industrial and public service cabal is in progress with patriotic Americans today. This is the Fourth Turning.
    Does that pragmatic perspective shed POTUS 45 in a different light?

  52. michael mills

    This guy needs help. My real deep seated concern is the desperate leadership deficiency in Oz. Surely the management of our country can be placed in better hands by a roots and branches reform of all our institutions. Perhaps a small experiment one of the States to become a republic, with an updated constitution with a directly elected president with clear executive power but not legislative capacity – similar to the USA. We, in Queensland, desperately need radical change due to the unicameral structure which means we live in a virtual dictatorship with , currently, no control, over the either party once in power.

  53. Dr Fred Lenin

    When one defected from the organs of the fascist Soviet Union the West was eager for any story about the duplicity and deceit of the KGB . Many stories were embellished by defectors to make their defection more important and to assuage their conscience for betraying their trust. It was extremely difficult to prove the veracity of statements ,you couldn’t just ask the KGB resident for verification ,and their media was as infiltrated and one sided as ours is now. There is probably some truth in this statement but more likely the dream of a KGB officer or theoretician of the party . The infiltration of western academia started early , ,George Bernard Shaw for instance “I have seen the future and it works “ ,and the red academics at Cambridge who created Philby ,Burgess ,Maclean ,Blunt ,Cairncross etc spy ring s ,Oxford would have been corrupted too but they were never caught ,the old boy network ensured that . The communist war started l 1917 and is still going ,Trump could end this war and the Korean War too,good luck to him ._

  54. Turtle of WA

    So You were wrong.

  55. JC

    Nice post , Lucius. With a couple of exceptions, I have nothing against never-Trumpers and feel the Right should be a big tent. But this is predicated on one condition – that dislike of Trump doesn’t mean letting go of right wing principles. For instance, I still have a lot of time for Brett Stephen and read his column. Dislike Trump, by all means, but at the same time, lets enjoy the things he’s doing that we agree with and hope he gives the leftwing media absolute hell.

  56. Iampeter

    Trump is not right wing and does not represent “right wing principles”. The reasons he won the election were leftist as are the reasons for much of his support, but those that don’t understand politics think it was about some “push-back” on the non-issues of identity politics.

    The whole issue today is a lack of alternatives to the left and confused conservatives and libertarians don’t have any answers and are still focussing on promises and expectations from before the election over 1.5 years ago when the reality is clearly a third obama term with less competence.

  57. JC

    Peter

    If your understanding of economics was the bluster and bullshit you presented on recent thread, you have no business discussing Trump, Friedman, Reagan or any icon on the Right. Shut up.

  58. Iampeter

    JC, you should take your own advice. Urgently.
    You know nothing about the subjects discussed on this blog and your posts are epic cringe in their total ignorance.

  59. jupes

    Iampeter, your comment makes a lot of sense.

    LOL

    You idiot.

  60. classical_hero

    Let’s not forget that President Trump proposed a tariff free zone. To say he’s against free trade is complete rubbish. The reason he agreed to the terrible budget was to improve the military. The next time he has more ammunition to refuse a poor budget. Too many people want instant results when time is needed to get change to reap the benefits.

  61. Tom

    Trump is not right wing and does not represent “right wing principles”.

    … says the leftard stooge who is still barracking for Crooked Hillary and the corrupt Washington establishment.

    My god, you are a brainless clown. And you will be even more of a brainless clown with each passing month.

    There is no hope for you. You are incapable of learning.

    You should be grateful you haven’t been kicked off the Cat as a troll. You add about as much value to this site as Googleory and his socks.

  62. W Hogg

    So it’s just iampenis left now that Lucy has catitulated?

  63. classical_hero

    Tell me again how @realDonaldTrump is the bad guy? Thank you Mr. President for #maga I love you! #womenfortrump #fairtrade https://t.co/GItCq77dgd

  64. .

    Fair trade?

    Let’s not lose our minds because we like Trump.

  65. .

    Iampeter, your comment makes a lot of sense.

    It still does.

  66. struth

    Thank god the type of theory over reality moronic libertarians are so few in number, as to not be a concern.
    And they never will be.
    It takes a level of insulated ignorance on so many levels.

  67. .

    Tariffs aren’t good. They’re just another tax.

    If America wants to start a discussion about IP, no one will want to play ball with them because their IP rules are beyond ridiculous.

    A song performed by a pop starlet and published by a corporation is protected for up to 120 years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

    If you base it on “unfair” tariffs, you’re making the same argument that America ought to push up their income tax rates to that of the Nordics. The tariffs hurt Canada, for example, more than they hurt America.

  68. Fisky

    Oh dear! Is Iampeter pining for his idol Hillary again??? What a loser!

  69. Fisky

    But I’m gradually coming to the view that Trump is a necessary evil, a product of the decline of the west

    Any time you want to apologise for slandering Trump’s supporters, you grub.

  70. struth

    Tarriffs hurt the seller and the buyer.
    Not just the buyer.
    To anyone with half a brain, this is obvious.
    Trump obviously hits a nerve talking about it to the countries selling into the states.
    Now I wonder why that can be?
    If it only damaged the states, they’d laugh at him, would they not/
    He also suggested zero tariffs between the G7 trading partners but they shit themselves when he suggested it.
    Yet you throbbers carry on because he is threatening RETALIATORY Tariffs.
    You TDS sufferers talk like it was some level playing field before Trump.
    FMD.

  71. .

    Canada’s tariffs hurt Canadians more than they hurt the US. The US does not need Canada, but Canada needs the US. Look at the US domestic market.

    Zero tariffs is a great idea. World GDP would rise significantly and permanently.

    If Trump wants to increase tariffs to get others to see the light, they’re retalitory. You can’t have it both ways.

    I can’t say there has been a trade war that ever ended well for anyone. No one wins.

    The best trade policy is no protectionism and to let your increasing living standards be a teaching moment to the dullards like Trudeau and Macron.

  72. struth

    Sometimes, Tariffs hurt the selling nation even more than the buying nation depending on the size of the tariff/market, and the industry and product involved.
    A coal tariff imposed against our exports would hurt us more than a car tariff etc.
    Also Trump was preparing to only put up Tariffs against certain countries like China (who dump via Canada) and not for all.
    A trade war is already happening and the U.S, has been losing for years.
    A really good idea would be to get your head out of your libertarian (there is only one economic rule for success) theory book, and look what Trump is doing, look at what China and the U.N. are and have been doing especially, and look past the insulated lens of libertarianism.
    Anyone that did that, would not be making silly theory driven statements right now.

  73. .

    Sometimes, Tariffs hurt the selling nation even more than the buying nation depending on the size of the tariff/market, and the industry and product involved.

    No, this would be only in a very limited set of examples. 90% of the gains of trade liberalisation are internal and dynamic. Can you give a few examples where you know this happens?

    A coal tariff imposed against our exports would hurt us more than a car tariff etc.

    It would hurt the importing nation more.

    A trade war is already happening and the U.S, has been losing for years.

    This is just rhetoric.

    A really good idea would be to get your head out of your libertarian (there is only one economic rule for success) theory book, and look what Trump is doing, look at what China and the U.N. are and have been doing especially, and look past the insulated lens of libertarianism.
    Anyone that did that, would not be making silly theory-driven statements right now.

    There are hundreds of years of evidence backing up what I’m saying.

    Besides optimal tariff theory, trade economics is settled theory. You can’t overcome that with rhetoric.

  74. Mark A

    .
    #2739035, posted on June 16, 2018 at 10:47 pm

    Zero tariffs is a great idea.

    ————————–
    Agreed, why then does’t everyone following it?
    You seem to be hung up about th US and Trump, or should be TRUMP, and the US?
    I’m working in the EU, and I know first hand the subsidies and protections the ag. sector gets, to the extent that there is subsidy for leaving the land fallow.
    ———————————–

    World GDP would rise significantly and permanently.

    Not sure about that.

    I’m not an economist nor am I pretending to know a lot of about it, but some things simply don’t add up in my book.
    Main one is, why is it good for one country to drop all barriers and tariffs, while the nations it trades with impose the same against them?

    What good is it that you can buy Chinese junk cheap, but have no job and no money to afford it, no matter how cheap?

  75. min

    Michael Smith has a video of Trump talking about NK in 1999. He is spot on and he has followed through. Perhaps someone can put it on here.

  76. .

    Agreed, why then does’t everyone following it?

    Why don’t we have zero corporate and income tax and a balanced budget? Why has NSW in the last decade removed ancient rights found in the Magna Carta that thousands if not millions have died for?

    You seem to be hung up about th US and Trump, or should be TRUMP, and the US?

    No, he is the only person who is changing policy, hence topical.

    I’m working in the EU, and I know first hand the subsidies and protections the ag. sector gets, to the extent that there is subsidy for leaving the land fallow.

    EU ag subsidies are among the worst. The French farmers have a very powerful lobby.

    World GDP would rise significantly and permanently.

    Not sure about that.

    Absolutely it would. I think it was Robert Feenstra who did a study on this over a decade ago. Removing tariffs leads to more foreign direct investment (certainly more than tariffs can encourage). Economies of scale also increase for immobile businesses that still conduct arm’s length trade.

    The biggest beneficiaries of tariffs are unions, government and businesses that refuse to innovate (like French farmers).

    Main one is, why is it good for one country to drop all barriers and tariffs, while the nations it trades with impose the same against them?

    Because most of the gains from trade liberalisation are dynamic and internal. This was a finding in the CIE’s report for the Federal Government in 2004 regarding the Australia-US FTA.

    This is more so with small open economies. America’s gains from trade and trade liberalisation are lower because of the US domestic market is a massive part of the world economy.

    What good is it that you can buy Chinese junk cheap, but have no job and no money to afford it, no matter how cheap?

    There are more jobs open and lower prices if you have fewer tariffs. Why is the Chinese stuff cheap? The best thing for us is to sell them something we have that we can produce abundantly.

    You should see the significant increase in FDI into Australia from 1985 onwards as we dropped protectionism. Most of it is owned by large multinational enterprises. IIRC they own 20% of the capital stock here but pay 25% of the private sector wages bill.

  77. Mark A

    .
    #2739072, posted on June 16, 2018 at 11:47 pm

    You are quoting studies by, I suppose by learned economists.

    I am looking at real life facts as happening here in Aust.
    I’m observing the actual decline of manufacturing industries.
    I’m observing the stagnant wage situation going back many years now.
    I’m talking about the 10s of thousands of workers being retrenched with no hope of ever finding a meaningful, if any, job and are hidden on either unemployment or disability pensions.

    Why are Chinese goods cheap?
    Not because we removed the tariffs, they are cheap because the wages are a fraction of ours in China, the working conditions are different, energy is cheap.

    And also they are cheaply made rubbish, most of it anyway.

    Theory is fine, tell that to the unemployed steel worker or any worker who lost their jobs due to one sided open market.

  78. Mark A

    PS
    re. you are talking about Trump. Sure he’s got the ball rolling, but why not mention those who are intent on keeping the status quo?

    Or do you agree with them?
    Seems like it.

  79. BorisG

    I hope to hell that is what is going on, Tom. Otherwise the yanks have installed a narcissistic, nympho sociopathic bullshit artist in the White House. That is, business as usual.

    It can be both

  80. BorisG

    I broadly sympathize with Lucius. For a view from Jowish perspective, google IS TRUMP GOOD FOR THR JOWS and pick an article Jpost.

    And before you ask for any apologies, I stand by most things I said before. Trump needs to be criticized where criticisms is due, this will make Trump better.

  81. BorisG

    Looking at the list of trump’s achievements provided by cohenite
    #2738638, posted on June 16, 2018 at 2:18 pm

    I see four specific policies (climate change, oil, tax cut and Israel) as specific policy initiatives.

    I support all of these but tax cut is futile without significant spending cuts.

    The rest is just empty culture war shots. Shots don’t mean wins. Yes he continues to condemn and ridicule all institutions and media but it only works with the converted.

    And on China: when China ceases its imperial expansion in South China Sea, come back to us.

  82. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    You send a hard man in to do a hard job.
    Insidious communism by another name and corporate rent seeking were/are ruining America.
    As well as the deals that were being done on climate and trade; all disasters till Trump.
    Trump is, and was, the man. Leading the Free World. You don’t have to like him.
    Abbott could have been Australia’s Trump; but he wasn’t.
    Tough in Opposition but weak in Government. Useless.
    Now we are stuck with a narcissistic climate zealot and God help us.

  83. A Lurker

    I ask – Where is our Trump?

  84. PK

    You thought and still think Trump a buffoon.
    You were and still are part of the problem.

  85. struth

    Dot shows us again, this time perfectly how libertarians help the left.

    Taking no real world scenarios into account such as the corruption of the UN, China, Paris Agreements and all sorts of disgusting shackles placed on only the western countries, they babble on about theories.

    Open up a shop, be taxed by your enemy, be regulated by your enemy and be denied markets by your enemy, while they scream blue murder if you dare deny them access to yours.
    This is the situation at the moment for the west and especially the USA, until Trump and breaking away from Paris Agreement occurred.
    We in Australia are still being reamed by global socialist U.N and globalist anti western forces within and outside our borders.
    Basically the market is corrupt and bloody “libertarians” start quoting academics and studies again.
    Right here, right with this thread, we see it again.
    As plane as the nose on your face.

    But but but,……………………………………….theories!

  86. .

    Not “theories” struth.

    These are as close to a scientific law like gravity or electromagnetism as you can get.

    “Real world scenarios” – no, just paranoid rambling.

    I will make a long post tonight with empirical data.

    Mark M and struth are wrong on almost everything here.

    You are wrong struth, accept it and move on.

    There are no valid justifications for a tariff or any form of protectionism.

  87. struth

    Ah, the babblings of the miffed.

    Of course real world scenarios would have to be just paranoid ramblings.

    They’d have to be, or your theories would be slapping you about the face and causing you all sorts of grief.

    Oh………………………..

  88. Eyrie

    As Michener’s task force commander says at the end of “bridges at Toko-Ri”, “from where do we get such men?”

  89. struth

    I will make a long post tonight with empirical data.

    Oh god, spare us.

    Yawn.
    We aren’t that gullible.

  90. Confused Old Misfit

    Because most of the gains from trade liberalisation are dynamic and internal.

    Best you try explaining that to someone who’s just been laid off because of chinese steel imports.

  91. Confused Old Misfit

    Why don’t we have zero corporate and income tax and a balanced budget? Why has NSW in the last decade removed ancient rights found in the Magna Carta that thousands if not millions have died for?

    = “I don’t know”.

  92. .

    So you talk about “real world scenarios” but refuse to accept empirical data?

    Don’t become a tin foil hat wearing warmie, struth.

    Or a leftist.

    You know who else loves tariffs?

    Naomi Klein.

  93. .

    Confused Old Misfit
    #2739276, posted on June 17, 2018 at 10:21 am
    Because most of the gains from trade liberalisation are dynamic and internal.

    Best you try explaining that to someone who’s just been laid off because of chinese steel imports.

    Why don’t you explain to everyone else who never got a job why we had to subsidise some schlepper at Holden (who made totally awful, ugly and shithouse cars for over 60 years), and why the bloke at Holden’s job was worth more than multiple others?

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/each-holden-staffer-costs-taxpayers-50000/news-story/2924afe9fbf9a113815fb52a11e78b5c?sv=1600ac4189fe04f35a24e43e53e17db6

    So every Holden job costs taxpayers 50k –

    Or at the time, $550 mn p.a.

    Holden cost everyone else in Australia about 7,000 potential jobs, when subsidies were at their lowest.

  94. Cassie of Sydney

    I ran into John Howard in Castlereagh Street this week and I accosted him (in a good way…he is looking a little frail). I said to him….”Mr Howard, you cannot possibly be happy with the direction of this current Liberal government and this pathetic PM.” His answer to me was the following (and interestingly, he didn’t disagree)…..”Well, it is better than the alternative.” I retorted that that isn’t good enough and why should I vote Liberal and get a Labor lite government. I also said to him that we need a right of centre government that was willing to engage in and fight the culture war agains the left. I said that that was Trump’s success, he threw the bullshit back at the media and the elites. He agreed with me. Maybe he was just being polite but I sensed in him a little despair at our current so called Liberal government. I then left the poor man alone however he handled being accosted by an ranting and opinionated woman quite well. In fact I think he liked it! Anyway, we are stuffed her in Oz. Where is our Trump ? Nowhere and not anywhere.

  95. struth

    Why don’t you explain to everyone else who never got a job why we had to subsidise some schlepper at Holden (who made totally awful, ugly and shithouse cars for over 60 years), and why the bloke at Holden’s job was worth more than multiple others?

    Can you give us a breakdown of how much tax was paid by Holdens, how much extra for government regulation of power they used, compliance costs to regulation their competitors in other countries did not pay?
    How much tax was paid by all employees and businesses in Australia supplying everything from car parts to food for the farmer producing food for the truckies and workers of Monroe whylie shockers or wheel manufacturers?
    You can’t.
    The government made the manufacturing of cars unaffordable in Australia through excessive taxation and regulation of businesses and the private productive sector, Australia wide.
    It then chucked a bit of it’s windfall back at the factory, which you then quote.
    A factory I personally know was quite automated and robotic.
    The government should not have to subsidise business.
    It should also not tax it out of existence in the first place.
    It shouldn’t have subsidised Holdens because of it’s bad taxation regulation policies in the first place.
    However the amount of extra business and therefore revenue collected by having Holden on our shores vastly outweighs the subsidy given.
    The greed of government killed Holdens and symbolic little subsidies thrown at the core business was never going to end well with what the took with the other hand.

  96. mh

    Desperate much?

    After finding no evidence showing direct coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin, Special Counsel Robert Mueller is now focusing on President Trump’s sex life before he ran for president.

  97. struth

    Dot ….theory first (that he hasn’t showed, and can’t put into a few short sentences) and an absolute rejection of what is plainly obvious…..China’s building of over 100 coal power stations where we in the west aren’t allowed to use what we ship to them, (they flood us with solar panels made with coal power) and a thousand other real world scenarios that are easy to find he finds to be paranoid ramblings because these make the theories to hard to sell.
    The real world has a habit of doing that.

  98. Confused Old Misfit

    Why don’t you explain…

    No, you don’t weasel out of it that way.
    Free trade would be a beautiful thing. So would the world be if all men followed Christ’s example.
    In trade there is always rent seeker ready to levy a tax of some description on your transaction at some level. Immediately that is imposed trade ceases to be free.
    Your theories are beautiful. The practical implementation thereof, much less so.

  99. Iampeter

    Struth and CoM, I just had a phone call and it was the 20th century union members and Labor/Democrat voters asking to have their economically illiterate, leftist arguments back.

    If you guys wanted to prove my point about the leftist reasons people support Trump then just keep posting what you’re posting.

  100. struth

    Struth and CoM, I just had a phone call and it was the 20th century union members and Labor/Democrat voters asking to have their economically illiterate, leftist arguments back.

    If you guys wanted to prove my point about the leftist reasons people support Trump then just keep posting what you’re posting.

    Great comeback.
    I’m done in.
    Ya got me with that?
    How can I argue with that ?
    Well obviously I can’t, because there, like usual, isn’t an argument there.
    Just rhetoric .
    SFA else.
    Go home Iampeter.
    You shouldn’t be driving a keyboard by yourself yet.

  101. Confused Old Misfit

    What I really want to see from the laissez faire free traders is a demonstration of their proposals in action. I am not opposed to free trade. Would that it were possible. The theory that unilateral free trade is beneficial to the unprotected might well work out the way “dot” and many others claim it would.
    The problem is the the time span required to realize the results. Surviving that time span might well be tragic for many, not least the proponents of the theory.
    The Canadian political parties (Liberal & Conservative = Labour & Coalition here) are blatantly purchasing the votes of 10,000 dairy farmers, primarily in Ontario & Quebec. And these are not poor farmers. They are very well off and those that might be on the marginal end are poor managers. This affects what the Canadian consumer pays for ALL dairy and dairy derived product.
    A similar situation exists with respect to chicken & egg marketing.
    These should be got rid of. ALL subsidies, tax breaks, etc. should be got rid of. However, any one with a scintilla of intelligence knows that this would create massive social disruption and therefore it will not happen as a result of a policy decision by ANY political party.
    I am not sanguine about the societal results, especially in the short to medium ei generational, time frame of unilateral lifting of trade barriers by any country when faced by similar barriers from another.
    I agree with Wilbur Ross: “(the government)should provide access to our markets to those countries who play fair, play by the rules and give everybody a fair chance to compete. Those who do not should not get away with it – they should be punished.” Naturally, Ross is considered a protectionist. By association, so too must I be. Very well. Give me this situation: “play fair, play by the rules and give everybody a fair chance to compete.” and I may be able to see things in another light. However, I do not think that this situation has ever existed.
    As noted earlier in this thread, Trump offered to negotiate on free trade, no subsidies, no tariffs, no tax brakes, etc. Of course the offer was deemed so far outside the pale of realpolitik as to be rejected out of hand.

  102. Iampeter

    What I really want to see from the laissez faire free traders is a demonstration of their proposals in action.

    Just look around you. The world you live in is testament to the facts of economics. You can easily look up the specifics just start with The Wealth of Nations and go from there. Nothing here is “theoretical” and these facts have been pretty clear for over 250 years.

    My point in this thread is not to debate entry-level economic ideas that even school children understand, but to point out that Trump is a leftist and so are many of his supporters. Everything you’re posting, from nonsense about requirements of “protection” or “fair trade” to the questions that you’re asking, totally prove my point.

    The sad thing is that it’s not just you, but the majority of the conservative movement that is this confused about absolutely everything. Todya’s conservative mainstream is dominated by the ideas of the early 20th century progressives.

    Conservatives today are the economincally, historically and all-round politically illiterate, arm of the left wing.

  103. mh

    Amongst the symptoms of TDS is an astonishing lack of humour. From the SCMP:

    Donald Trump’s ‘dictator envy’ on full display in latest praise for North Korean leader Kim Jong-un

    Reflecting on his impressions of Kim following their Singapore summit, Trump told Fox News Channel: “He’s the head of a country, and I mean he’s the strong head. Don’t let anyone think anything different. He speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”

  104. nemkat

    Trump did clarify in the next sentence that he was talking about the official NK delegation, not North Koreans in general.

  105. struth

    Open borders Libertarians are left enabling traitors to the west.
    Open borders, theory driven economics applied to one side of the trade, with no concern for global corruption in infantile and dangerous.
    Excuse us conservatives if we don’t wish to be arse fucked by socialism and the evils of the world, which if theories the libertarians spouse actually were put in place, would happen.
    They will never happen, so Libertarians like Iampeter feel pretty confident in dribbling shit, knowing full well, in the real world, their pompous stupidity will never be tested.

  106. Chris M

    Never trust a never Trump.

  107. Iampeter

    If you think you can regulate who can live where then you are left wing.
    If you are spouting old-school leftist anti-trade talking points then you are left wing.
    If you think free trade is “theory” that isn’t even real then you are left wing.

    This is obvious and shouldn’t need to be debated.

    If you haven’t grasped this much I can’t imagine what you would be doing on Sinclair’s blog.
    If you’ve been reading Sinclair’s stuff for years and don’t get the above points, well, then you are likely beyond help anyway.

  108. Makka

    So you talk about “real world scenarios” but refuse to accept empirical data?

    Don’t become a tin foil hat wearing warmie, struth.

    Or a leftist.

    You know who else loves tariffs?

    Naomi Klein.

    Never ever forget that dotty wants our borders open and is happy to see more moslems arrive in Australia.

    dotty wants to see the free movement of people and goods across borders.

  109. Confused Old Misfit

    The absolute arrogance exhibited above is only exceeded by the ignorance evidenced.

  110. .

    I see facts have made left wing, faux “conservatives” have a fit of apoplexy today.

    More later.

    Remember: I’m trying to wean you off a tax fetish, specifically the taxation of imports.

  111. Iampeter

    It’s really not that hard: open borders, free trade, capitalism in general and rights protecting government are all right wing positions.

    If you oppose these or most of these, then you’re not right wing.

    Or put another way: when you hold to pretty much the same positions as union members, labor and democrat voters, you’re a leftist.

    This is just facts.

  112. .

    This is a well written, easy to understand but well researched and modelled research report on the costs and benefits (net benefits) of trade liberalisation in Australia:

    It is the best and most recent one I could find.

    Happy reading:

    https://dfat.gov.au/about-us/publications/trade-investment/Documents/cie-report-trade-liberalisation.pdf

    The economic modelling undertaken for this report suggests that the merchandise trade liberalisation over the 1986 to 2016 period has benefitted the Australian economy, with real GDP being 5.4 per cent higher in 2016 than it would otherwise have been (with no trade liberalisation).

    For the average Australian family, this period of trade liberalisation is estimated to have seen real income being A$8448 higher in 2016 than otherwise.

    Pretty conclusive evidence.

  113. struth

    Am I really engaging with people who believe that if you regulate where people can live you are left wing.?
    Listen stupid.
    A whole generation of right wing people fought and died to stop a left wing Hitler living where he liked.
    Regulating where nazis wanted to live.
    You are nothing but a moron.
    The reason I take you on is that you ate so dumb you are dangerous to the west.

  114. Tel

    After finding no evidence showing direct coordination between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin, Special Counsel Robert Mueller is now focusing on President Trump’s sex life before he ran for president.

    It makes a lot of sense, the purpose is to smear Trump as the mid-term elections come through.

    The whole thing from day one was designed to derail and disrupt the Trump presidency, and nothing has changed. Don’t think of it as any sort of investigation, because the purpose is plainly political.

  115. Iampeter

    No Struth, defeating Hitler was not about the non-issue of immigration.
    You are not taking anyone on here, you are just embarrassing yourself on the internet with each new post, showing levels of political illiteracy that makes teenage SJW’s seem intelligent by comparison.

    But please don’t stop, the comedy is too good.

  116. Tel

    What would a “rights protecting government” have done with Poland’s open borders in 1939?

  117. struth

    Iampeter.
    You are a disgrace and show complete disrespect for those that died defending geographical borders that keep tyranny out and allow for democracy.
    Without borders you have no democracy.
    Europe only let theirs slip for a while and the enemies of the west came flooding in.
    I repeat
    Your anarchristic stupidity helps the enemies of the west.
    And again I give you examples while you call names.
    You don’t deserve to be living in what you wish to destroy, and you ignorantly and arrogantly brush aside the sacrifice of those that gave it to you.
    Pure filth.

  118. Snoopy

    1 amp eter is a dim bulb.

  119. .

    WWI could have prevented (at least in Europe) if we did not screw over Germany and let Austria and Germany unite.

    (We also should have committed to defeating the Bolsheviks, but real life isn’t alternate history).

  120. Iampeter

    Tel, you’re confusing military invasion with immigration and no, Poland’s issue was also not the make-believe “open borders” talking points that seems to be the only thing people who know nothing about politics talk about.

    And Struth, it is you who is the disgrace, spitting on the memories of those who died fighting for real issues, not your make believe problems of “immigrants” that you tryto make everything about in your ignorance.

  121. Iampeter

    WW2 – the great battle against evil immigants !

    If the allies lost they woulda took yer jerbs!

    The cat is so funny, I can’t stop LOL’ing.

  122. struth

    WWI could have prevented (at least in Europe) if we did not screw over Germany and let Austria and Germany unite.

    Which has four fifths of fuck all to do with what we are talking about here.

    Dot, can you see the dangers now when you crap on with your theories in front of youthful dumb arrogant types like Iampeter?
    You libertarian fairy word dwellers have a lot to answer for

  123. struth

    Tel, you’re confusing military invasion with immigration

    Yeah, totalitarian regimes don’t need to waste their effort on military invasion if you just drop your borders and let them waltz in.
    Fuckwit.

  124. struth

    If the allies lost they woulda took yer jerbs!

    Is that all you reckon would have happened you space cadet?
    As I said, you are a left wing enabler, as is dot, with your arrogant, fairyland anarchy

  125. Tel

    Iampeter #2740248,

    You didn’t answer the question, just zoomed off onto your regular distraction garbage. What should an “rights protecting government” do with their open borders policy in that kind of situation?

  126. Tel

    WWI could have prevented (at least in Europe) if we did not screw over Germany and let Austria and Germany unite.

    Germany would never have even been unified if Napoleon had not invaded.

    Napoleon would not have been able to raise an army if the French hadn’t been so revolting and if the French monarchy had their shit together… but that’s all besides the point. Anyone can have good governance in a situation where nothing bad happens, the difficult bit is how to handle it when something bad does happen (and it always will).

  127. Iampeter

    Is that all you reckon would have happened you space cadet?

    No you retard, that’s what you think because you think WW2 was about open borders.
    Sorry Struth, this is my last response to you on anything, you are dumber than shit and a complete waste of time.

    Is that all you reckon would have happened you space cadet?

    No Tel, that’s what you are doing by comparing immigration/open borders to the military and foreign policy issues facing Poland in WW2.
    You seem to oppose immigration but not know what the term even means.

  128. JC

    Peter

    After your comments on the previous thread, displaying a peculiar combination of arrogance with heavy duty retardation in the field of economics etc, you need need to apologize and STFU.

  129. Iampeter

    LOL JC, why don’t you project some more.
    You’re as hopeless as struth and many of the other embarrassments that post nonsesinsical gibberish here.

    Like many of the loudest posters here you know absolutely nothing about politics and histroy and don’t have the excuse of youth for your epic cluelessness.

  130. struth

    Yes Iampeter, the whole world’s wrong, and your the only one who’s right.

    Your fuckwittery is worse than dot.
    He tries to back his arguments up with fairyland data, like a kid who believes everything he is told about the world, while never even looking out his basement window.
    He’s fascinated with theory.
    You don’t even want to glance out your mummie’s basement window because your level of thick is such that you don’t think you need to.

    You can’t answer so you try for bombastic arrogance as a defence.
    Doesn’t work here at the cat.
    We all see straight through you and have the answers you are too dumb to have even contemplated.
    This site is not for you.
    Give it 20 years or so and comeback then.

  131. Tel

    No Tel, that’s what you are doing by comparing immigration/open borders to the military and foreign policy issues facing Poland in WW2.
    You seem to oppose immigration but not know what the term even means.

    So if you were government of Poland in 1939 and a column of German trucks turned up in Warsaw you would just direct them towards the marketplace right? You would not even have the slightest clue there’s a problem until the rifles came out.

    And that’s obviously your only plan, given as how repeatedly you fail to be able to answer simple questions.

    At least the real Polish government put up some attempt of a defense.

  132. Confused Old Misfit

    The ignorant little pissant has apparently never heard of lebensraum.

  133. Iampeter

    So if you were government of Poland in 1939 and a column of German trucks turned up in Warsaw you would just direct them towards the marketplace right?

    No. But that’s not immigration or “open borders” situation either. You’re describing a foreign policy issue.
    Oh and on foreign policy issues, conservatives are the ones who both failed to identify and destroy the enemy that we’ve been facing since 9/11 so your plan if you were in that situation would probably be to call Nazism an ideology of peace and walk around with Hitler holding hands like you’re going steady.
    Conservatives have failed on every issue of our time and are trying to pretend being tough on immigrants is the same as being tough in foreign policy.

    The ignorant little pissant has apparently never heard of lebensraum.

    What does that have to do with immigration?
    Like the other political illiterates here you just don’t understand anything and are throwing political words around hoping something will stick.

    That won’t work with those of us who do know what we are talking about and we will keep laughing at you triggered oldies who know less than todays teenagers about how the world works.

  134. Fisky

    If open borders was such a wonderful idea, why has the EU’s per capita growth rate FALLEN since Schengen was signed? Clearly, open borders is bad for GDP. We must reject open borders at once!

  135. Fisky

    That won’t work with those of us who do know what we are talking about and we will keep laughing at you triggered oldies who know less than todays teenagers about how the world works.

    You haven’t finished high school yet, have you Iampeter?

  136. Iampeter

    If open borders was such a wonderful idea, why has the EU’s per capita growth rate FALLEN since Schengen was signed?

    What are you describing as “open borders”?

    You haven’t finished high school yet, have you Iampeter?

    Hahahaha, this is rich coming from one of the most ignorant posters here. Don’t project your epic shame at the ignorance and inability to discuss any topics here onto me, you muppet.

  137. Iampeter

    All you guys talk about is “immigration” and “open borders” because you know nothing about politics, but you can’t even describe the only issue that you care about and are left erecting terrible straw-men.

    You are such a joke.

  138. Fisky

    What are you describing as “open borders”?

    That’s the Schengen Agreement, Iampeter, which established “open borders” in the EU. I’m amazed you haven’t heard of this, because you would think that supporters of open borders might take an interest in how their ideology works in reality. Or is “open borders” libertarianism a purely theoretical exercise in academic wankery, as many of us suspected?

  139. Iampeter

    I know what it is you idiot, I’m asking you what the issue you think is being caused by open borders.
    You keep saying “grrr open borders”, but can you describe what you actually think the issue is that it causes?

    *Sits back to prepare for straw-men*

  140. Fisky

    I know what it is you idiot, I’m asking you what the issue you think is being caused by open borders. You keep saying “grrr open borders”, but can you describe what you actually think the issue is that it causes?

    Oh yes! On the upside, open borders has completely failed to raise GDP growth. On the downside, it has facilitated the “free movement” of terrorists, malcontents and welfare moochers.

    Thanks, by the way, for finally admitting that you support Angela Merkel’s policy of importing millions of Muslim male “refugees”.

  141. Fisky

    Iampeter thinks there is “no problem” with importing 2 million Muslim country shoppers into Europe. Doesn’t cause any issues at all!

    This is the mainstream “libertarian” position on open borders.

  142. JC

    This is the mainstream “libertarian” position on open borders.

    Fisky

    Stop that nonsense. Peter is not a libertarian. He’s a crank. I think he mentioned he has an economics degree (Masters) from Zero Hedge University.

  143. Fisky

    But it’s not nonsense. Mainstream “libertarian” publications such as Reason Magazine, showed their support for the Merkel position at the peak of the refugee crisis. E.g. “Let The Refugees In

    Chris Berg even published a book the following year, calling for a massive increase in family reunion migration, and even suggesting he wanted “the maj0rity” of people to move from the Third World to developed countries.

  144. Iampeter

    Thanks Fisky, you are too easy. The question of “what problems are caused by open borders” is a trick question because no issues are caused by it. It’s a non-issue.

    What you are describing are problems caused by either the welfare and regulatory state (which as a conservative you support and certainly have no arguments or policies against).
    Or caused by failed foreign police (which as a conservative you take the cake given the spectacular failure to face down Islamic terrorism).

    In short, its you, the people you vote for and their terrible, statist policies that have caused the very issues you’re describing, but because you are not very bright you have not being able to join any of the dots.

    So you flail around like all politically illiterate, casual statists that make up conservatism today and where does this ignorant flailing land you? Why where it always lands the vilest and most ignorant collectivists: blaming immigrants.

    Like I said above, conservative are utterly politically illiterate, have no clue on any issue today and are left grasping at straws and blaming immigrants for problems they’ve largely yourselves created.

  145. Cohenite ‘n Lurker nail it , Trump ‘s attack on the fascist elites within and without,
    and they do not like it.

  146. Fisky

    I think all readers can do well to note that Iampeter has completely failed to distance himself from the allegation that he is a supporter of Angela Merkel’s open borders policy. This is a huge issue because if no one can present a “libertarian” case against importing 2 million Muslim males, concerned readers will start to question the overall value of “libertarianism” period. Which would be a tragedy in my view.

  147. A sovereign people can legitimately enact a policy that regulates who can and cannot permanently settle in their jurisdiction. Anyone that thinks otherwise is a nincompoop that knows next to nothing about politics.

  148. Tel

    What you are describing are problems caused by either the welfare and regulatory state (which as a conservative you support and certainly have no arguments or policies against).

    Now you have just resorted to outright bullshit.

    Pull up an article on this blog supporting more regulation and/or greater welfare state.

    What’s that thing Trump says? “Sad.”

  149. Fisky

    In short, its you, the people you vote for and their terrible, statist policies that have caused the very issues you’re describing, but because you are not very bright you have not being able to join any of the dots.

    But this can just as easily be turned back on libertarians – they have consistently failed to gain any traction for their ideas among the voting public, largely because of their inability to convince cognitively normal people of the benefits of libertarianism. This is probably because they keep pairing fairly non-controversial ideas such as low taxes, with bizarre fetishes like giving drugs to children and importing ISIS sympathisers into the country, etc. Most normal people run a mile from that freak show.

  150. Fisky, Iampeter, like many other libertarians, believes we cannot exclude anyone from entering our jurisdiction, but that a private property holder, can exclude a dying man at sea from seeking shelter on his private island.

  151. Iampeter

    Now you have just resorted to outright bullshit.

    You can just start comparing for yourself the amount of regulatory and welfate statism conservatives have implemented vs how much they have repealed. In Australia you will find policy by policy, the conservatives to be further left than Labor, especially in the 21st century.

    Pull up an article on this blog supporting more regulation and/or greater welfare state.

    This is NOT a conservative website. That’s a point I often make to you conservative leftists: why are you even here? You don’t agree with any of the essentials of the guy who owns the blog and drive away those who do with your crazy.

    But this can just as easily be turned back on libertarians – they have consistently failed to gain any traction

    I’m not a libertarian and your description of libertarians is largely another strawman anyway. I’m an actual right winger, which is something you don’t even remotely grasp because you don’t know anything about politics and should not be posting on political blogs. Unless you are trolling as a parody in which case you are awesome, but you are not, you are just an embarrassment.

    But it does sound like the point about how these are largely your issues not that of immigrants is starting to hit home.

    Would you believe it? Progress!

  152. Tel

    This is a huge issue because if no one can present a “libertarian” case against importing 2 million Muslim males, concerned readers will start to question the overall value of “libertarianism” period.

    Iampeter does not represent a “libertarian” argument on anything, he barely knows any history, and works only by repeating a few Randian bits and pieces, refusing to properly answer any question, he uses misdirection, and now he’s gone all the way to just bullshitting and misrepresenting other people. Oh yeah, and if he feels like it he will call you “racist” based on nothing, but hey it’s a good shut up word and it’s a great little leftists tactic he uses.

    If you want a coherent discussion on property rights (which means the ability to exclude people), freedom of association (which also includes freedom to choose NOT to associate) try reading Hans-Hermann Hoppe.

    https://www.mises.org/profile/hans-hermann-hoppe

    In a nutshell though, you only get a gain from any kind of exchange if all parties have the option to choose NOT to partake in said exchange. What that means is, people must have the right to select others that they prefer to hang around with (based on anything of their own choosing) and in the case of a nation state, it means the nation must have a border, which is defended, and supervised such that random people from outside must ask permission to enter. You only have property to the extent that such property can be secured.

    The Schengen Agreement would have worked if all nations in the EU had been equally willing and able to keep their borders secure and only brought in countries that were roughly equivalent in terms of social structure, labour laws, etc. However there were huge mistakes made like bringing in Greece at all (wrong on every level) and of course Germany both inviting vast numbers of highly culturally incompatible refugees and then insisting that everyone else take them (and then the NGO “charities” deliberately getting into the people smuggling action, in order to dump refugees from Libya into Italy is the latest source of friction).

  153. Fisky

    I’m not a libertarian and your description of libertarians is largely another strawman anyway.

    Yes, technically you not a libertarian, but an Objectivist. Which means you are a devotee of former Social Security recipient Ayn Rand, and her weird little personality cult.

  154. Fisky

    Sorry that should read “the late Social Security recipient, Ayn Rand…”

  155. struth

    Iampeter, your mum said enough computer for the day.
    Go out and get some fresh air .
    She’s read over your shoulder and she’s deeply embarrassed.
    Thank god you’re not my offspring I’d kick your arse until your nose bleeds for arguing with adults like that.

  156. Iampeter

    I will add, because its important, why right wing (not necessarily) libertarian, but individualist, rights protecting and capitalist ideas fail to take hold with the majority and the reason is the same that we haven’t had civilization for most of human history: people hate thinking.
    This is why religion is so popular even today when there is no excuse to be religious, its why hacks like Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris have such huge followings even though all they offer is incomprehensible gibberish. You want incomprehensible gibberish. Many posters here and many people in general want to have knowledge without having to go to the effort of thinking. This is why ideas requiring thinking (like rights protecting government and capitalism) don’t take off.

    It’s also why so many posters react with such hostility to my posts: when stripped of all your delusions you are not so different to a whiny, ignorant, teenage bernie sander supporter and you don’t want to face up to that, which is what I make you do repeatedly by not humouring your ignorance.

  157. Tel

    Iampeter, you seriously think you are the first person to figure out that the Australian Liberal and Labor parties are both big government parties? And you have to come here to explain it to everyone.

    For a 12 year old with a belly full of artificial colourings and flavourings you are kind of precocious but if you want people to treat you like a grown up I suggest do your reading and come back with some background knowledge.

  158. struth

    deluded.
    You’ll be the only sect leader with no sect.

  159. Iampeter

    Fisky is the kind of commie that would tell people who disagree with communism to get out of the bread lines and starve lol.

  160. Fisky

    Note Iampeter has called border control “racist”, slammed all opponents of SSM as bigots, and believes Jordan Peterson is a “hack”. In other words, Iampeter is on board with SJWs on nearly every issue except his occasional lip service to capitalism. Hmmmmmm.

  161. Iampeter

    If it was anyone else it would be funny to ask if Fisky uses public roads and if so he must be a Marxist, but because he actually agrees with Marxists on more than he disagrees the joke doesn’t work…

  162. Iampeter

    Note Iampeter has called border control “racist” slammed all opponents of SSM

    Not at all. I call specific individuals racists and bigots.
    Individuals like you.
    Not just anyone who disagrees with me on these issues.

  163. I said on another thread, Iampeter is a broken alogrithm. He came here today to prove my point. Ithankpeter.

  164. Iampeter

    Iampeter, you seriously think you are the first person to figure out that the Australian Liberal and Labor parties are both big government parties? And you have to come here to explain it to everyone.

    You still haven’t figured it out so it obviously needs explaining. And you still haven’t joined the dots with the cause of this being their ideology (like conservatism) which is big government.

    For a 12 year old with a belly full of artificial colourings and flavourings you are kind of precocious but if you want people to treat you like a grown up I suggest do your reading and come back with some background knowledge.

    This is just projection on your part given how embarassingly ignorant you are of the subject matter and I’m being pretty patient with you for which you should be grateful.

    Also if I was actually a kid, don’t you realize how much worse that makes you and the other posters here look?

    This is why I would ask Sinclair, is the Cat a blog he would send his students to? To read the ignorant rantings of oldish sjw’s constantly triggered by anything daring to break them away from their fugue state.

  165. Fisky

    The real political litmus test for me is the Larvatus Prodeo thought experiment, which is: would a person be instantly banned by Mark Bahnisch/Lefty Kim for their opinions, or would they be considered non-threatening to the Narrative and allowed to stay? We all know the answer for Iampeter!

  166. Fisky

    I also note that Iampeter OPPOSED the Trump tax cuts! Unbelievable.

  167. Iampeter

    The real political litmus test for me is the Larvatus Prodeo thought experiment

    Well ofcourse it is. The litmus test for you will be any random thing except actual ideas which you don’t have any of.
    Also as a conservative you represent the stupid part of the left wing so you are not being banned for any ideological differences (you’re a complete collectivist, statist and therefore leftist) but because you are too stupid and annoying even for them.
    In fact the cat is where you do all your posting because its probably the only place on the internet tolerant enough for you to not get your dumb ass banned.

  168. Iampeter

    I also note that Iampeter OPPOSED the Trump tax cuts! Unbelievable.

    LOL you don’t know what “tax cuts” are.
    You don’t anything about the subjects discussed on this blog.
    You are an embarassment.

  169. struth

    Well ofcourse it is. The litmus test for you will be any random thing except actual ideas which you don’t have any of.
    Also as a conservative you represent the stupid part of the left wing so you are not being banned for any ideological differences (you’re a complete collectivist, statist and therefore leftist) but because you are too stupid and annoying even for them.
    In fact the cat is where you do all your posting because its probably the only place on the internet tolerant enough for you to not get your dumb ass banned.

    Typically , not a fact to be seen.
    Just abuse.
    And you wonder why you get it back.
    You come on here without a fucking clue about what you are talking about, get hammered and then call everybody stupid without any more subject matter thrown in.
    Sore loser is an understatement.
    There is no reason to debate you.
    Your loss.

  170. Fisky

    Again, note that Iampeter dodges the charge that he opposed the Trump tax cuts by questioning the definiton of tax cuts. Very telling!

  171. .

    Shit, I meant WWII and..

    struth
    #2740301, posted on June 18, 2018 at 10:30 am
    Yes Iampeter, the whole world’s wrong, and your the only one who’s right.

    Your fuckwittery is worse than dot.
    He tries to back his arguments up with fairyland data, like a kid who believes everything he is told about the world, while never even looking out his basement window.
    He’s fascinated with theory.

    Please tell us why the empirical data and simulations/regressions done by the CIE for DFAT are “fantasy land” and “theory”.

    You look like you are illiterate now. I am trying to be polite.

  172. Iampeter opposed tax cuts? Why am I not surprised.

  173. JC

    LOL you don’t know what “tax cuts” are.
    You don’t anything about the subjects discussed on this blog.
    You are an embarassment.

    LOl. He’s like a version of Homer Paxton on steroids. He spends his time telling people here they don’t understand. Obviously, as a Zero Hedge alumni only he does. So retarded.

  174. .

    Any tax or spending cut is good.

    Repeat the mantra until it sinks in.

    Even if you are not a rock-ribbed libertarian or conservative, anyone else would have to admit how woefully inefficient our governments are.

    They need a good hard boot up the rear.

  175. mh

    Peter, do you think Donald Trump knows what tax cuts are?

  176. struth

    Are you two tag teaming, dot?
    Please tell me where you have seen free trade occur between countries that have governments that tax, subsidies and build infrastructure at varying degrees that is therefore also fair?
    Forget Tariffs for the second.
    I didn’t read what you linked to and proud to admit it.
    I don’t need to.
    Tell me why you think academic study is fact.
    Recent years and academic studies you disagree with you dismiss out of hand, as you quite rightly should.
    I may or may not have agreed with it.
    It’s actually irrelevant.
    It’s all about observing the real world, current affairs and disastrous government intervention, corruption, the U.N. and China when it comes to trade.
    Not a fucking “study”

  177. Fisky

    The benefits of “free trade” have been vastly oversold. Plenty of countries have gotten rich without free trade. Some have stayed relatively wealthy with low tariffs. It’s a wash.

    So when people predict armageddon from Trump slapping a few tariffs on China, all it points to is who is funding them. That’s all.

  178. mh

    I see the Australian is running the headline ‘Donald Trump’s Trade Tariff Madness’.

    They just refuse to learn.

  179. .

    I didn’t read what you linked to and proud to admit it.
    I don’t need to.

    Jesus christ this is just pig-headed.

    It’s all about observing the real world, current affairs and disastrous government intervention, corruption, the U.N. and China when it comes to trade.
    Not a fucking “study”

    What do you think they do in said studies regarding protectionism?

  180. .

    Fisky
    #2740887, posted on June 18, 2018 at 7:32 pm
    The benefits of “free trade” have been vastly oversold. Plenty of countries have gotten rich without free trade. Some have stayed relatively wealthy with low tariffs. It’s a wash.

    So when people predict armageddon from Trump slapping a few tariffs on China, all it points to is who is funding them. That’s all.

    Who is funding them though? They’re not all from the Bob Carr wing of the ALP.

    Growth rates are higher as are real wages with free trade. All you need do is compare export orientated and import substituting Asian economies from the 1950s to now. Arguing against economies of scale, however, would be a novel angle to take up, Fisk.

  181. Fisky

    Growth rates are higher as are real wages with free trade. All you need do is compare export orientated and import substituting Asian economies from the 1950s to now. Arguing against economies of scale, however, would be a novel angle to take up, Fisk.

    But there are plenty of examples of very rapid growth rates occurring with import substitution policies, such as Germany and the US in the 19th Century, and Korea, Japan etc in the 20th.

    So the problem is not that free trade is bad per se, it’s that the proponents of free trade have vastly oversold its benefits while remaining silent on those countries that have violated free trade, such as China. Most ludicrously of all, we’ve even seen self-styled “free traders” lauding China as a world leader in “free trade”.

    This is another area where proponents of globalisation have totally discredited their own cause (open borders being an even more serious example).

  182. Fisky

    In case anyone thinks I’m exaggerating, just read what Forbes magazine wrote not long after Trump’s inauguration.

    Communist China Is Now The Leader Of The ‘Free Trade’ World

    The same magazine claimed that Angela Merkel, who locks people up for holding anti-immigration views, was the leader of the “free world”.

  183. Iampeter

    Oh OK, I guess we’ll just agree to disagree on the point that we’re discussing about how you guys literally have no idea what you’re talking about and just jump into a random, technical policy/economic position Fisky pulled out of his ass even though you will just embarass yourselves again. Makes sense!

    You know for the supposed adults in this conversation you guys sure have the attention span of ADD addled children.

    Firstly tax cuts, require spending to be cut or else you are just going to be fleecing taxpayers indirectly. There are no real tax cuts to celebrate under Trump.
    Secondly, if you’re going to follow up your support for tax cuts with a post saying free trade is overrated then your support for tax cuts no longer makes any sense. You can’t both support and oppose capitalist policies. It’s one or the other.

    So you’ve once again contradicted yourself within two posts and this brings us back to my original theme of discussion in this thread: you have no idea what you are talking about and should not be posting anything on a politics or economics blog.

  184. Fisky

    But Iampeter, you supported the importation of 2 million unemployable Muslim males into Europe, which is hardly a free enterprise measure.

    What is it with you “libertarians”??

  185. Iampeter

    Typically , not a fact to be seen.
    Just abuse.

    That’s rich coming from one of the rudest posters here.
    On top of being totally ignorant of the topics here you also can dish it out but sure can’t handle it in return.
    Just piss you embarrassing imbecile.

  186. .

    I am arguing on the basis of comparison between policy types Fisk, not a measure of a particular policy.

  187. Iampeter

    But Iampeter, you supported…herpa derpa durr…

    You’ve already literally demonstrated you have no idea what you are talking about. Again.

    God damn, stop embarassing yourself by trying to twist things into other topics.

  188. struth

    What you need to do is study a bit more current affairs and what is going on in the real world when looking at trade dot.
    There is no one size fits all theory when corruption and governments are involved.
    I’m all for free trade, but while there’s governments, socialists, corruption of the U.N, the EU, China’s behaviour etc etc, it will never be.
    Best thing to do is go for fair trade and by that it means to keep the colluding global socialists at bay.
    This is what Trump is doing.
    That’s why they are spitting the dummy.
    And what do you find so offence in that?

  189. Fisky

    I’m all for free trade, but while there’s governments, socialists, corruption of the U.N, the EU, China’s behaviour etc etc, it will never be.

    I would argue that those who claim to be in favour of “free trade” are mostly running interference for the UN, EU, China etc. It’s a bait-and-switch!

  190. .

    The study I referenced was completed for the Australian government last December.

    Recent and not “one size fits all”.

    but while there’s governments, socialists, corruption of the U.N, the EU, China’s behaviour etc etc, it will never be.

    These are weak and fallacious arguments. You are better off committing to free trade even if no one else does.

  191. struth

    Is free trade to you, imposing no tariffs but accepting tariffs against your own exports?

  192. struth

    The study I referenced was completed for the Australian government last December.

    You guys secretly love government and trust it impeccably.
    Even corrupt courts it seems.

    These are weak and fallacious arguments.

    Have you been taking lessons from Iampeter.
    Just saying it does not make it so.

  193. .

    I present evidence, you dismiss it (for no reason at all) and then you refuse to accept that your own theories are theoretically wrong and have been proven to be wrong with decades of empirical data.

    The study I referenced was completed for the Australian government last December.

    You guys secretly love government and trust it impeccably.
    Even corrupt courts it seems.

    I have no idea what the court system has got to do with this. The government sets policy and seeks or needs to make the impression that it genuinely seeks advice. If you don’t like it, argue against the size of government.

    Your arguments are weak and fallacious. Even optimal tariff theory does not work – Airbus is a commercial failure that makes inferior, overpriced crap. It was the golden child of this theory.

  194. mh

    The selling of America to communist China over the last 25 years is one of the most disgraceful acts of bastardry seen in our lifetimes.

    Thank God for Trump.

  195. struth

    Dot, Is free trade imposing no tariffs while accepting tariffs against your own exports?
    Please answer the question.
    The court jibe was because of your comment on the other thread.
    Keep up man.
    And for this last comment by you, pure diversion again.

  196. Fisky

    God damn, stop embarassing yourself by trying to twist things into other topics.

    I’m not changing the topic at all, Iampeter. You are one of the prime offenders when it comes to promoting Leftist policies as so-called “free enterprise” ideas. In particular, supporting the state forcing Christian bakers to bake SSM wedding cakes, is a good example of “libertarians” ignoring their principles when it suits them.

  197. .

    Free trade is best struth, pursuing a policy of free trade yourself is all you can do though. Semantically you are correct.

    This is the important part:

    The benefits of trade liberalisation are obviously maximised when everyone does so, but having a free trade policy in itself is where most of the benefit is derived from.

  198. struth

    I present evidence, you dismiss it (for no reason at all) and then you refuse to accept that your own theories are theoretically wrong and have been proven to be wrong with decades of empirical data.

    The worlds been imposing Tariffs on American exports for ages.

    Their governments, like ours, are mostly socialist.
    Here’s a big real life lesson for you here spud.
    They don’t care if they bring their country down in the process of bringing the USA down.
    Your naivety is the point here.
    It’s as if the real world is too scary for you so you throw yourself into theories.
    The countries imposing tariffs yet wanting no tariffs to export to the USA, aren’t necessarily thinking about the best for their own countries as evidenced by their wilful destruction via open borders (EU) and China making sure the west can’t compete because it is tied to Paris Agreement, but it can do what it wants.
    There is much more complexity to this, but for the first time you are seeing a President who only cares for his country and against all this corruption is forcing a more level playing field.
    The socialist pigs are squealing and he has the upper hand, because unlike certain people hear, he truly understands the power the US market has, and just how much these filthy countries have been parasitically living off it.
    You talk of free markets in one of the most corrupt times on the planet.
    Laughable.

  199. struth

    Free trade is best struth, pursuing a policy of free trade yourself is all you can do though. Semantically you are correct.

    This is the important part:

    The benefits of trade liberalisation are obviously maximised when everyone does so, but having a free trade policy in itself is where most of the benefit is derived from.

    As I have often said, you’ll make a good lawyer.
    Is that a compliment?

    DO YOU call free trade imposing no tariffs but accepting tariffs on your own exports?

    Yes or no.

  200. mh

    I see George Soros is spending 5.6 million uk pounds in a last ditch campaign to de-rail BREXIT.

    George the philanthropist libertarian just loves free trade!

  201. .

    They don’t care if they bring their country down in the process of bringing the USA down.

    The US is still better off dropping all tariffs on everyone else though.

    Your naivety is the point here.
    It’s as if the real world is too scary for you so you throw yourself into theories.

    No, what I am saying is backed up by robust theories and empirical evidence (aka “the real world”). Evidence you just ignore, because…?

    and China making sure the west can’t compete because it is tied to Paris Agreement, but it can do what it wants.

    How would be the west be better off if Chinese goods became more expensive? All it would do is reduce real wages globally. Production would fall. The only gain in the west is a redistribution, not wealth creation or increased output.

    There is much more complexity to this, but for the first time you are seeing a President who only cares for his country and against all this corruption is forcing a more level playing field.

    Mexico put up their tariffs last week. There are now new tariffs when exporting to Mexico, a 20% tariff on US pork and a 25% on (some) the US processed dairy and liquor.

    No one wins.

    The socialist pigs are squealing and he has the upper hand, because unlike certain people hear, he truly understands the power the US market has, and just how much these filthy countries have been parasitically living off it.

    Then he should end military subsidies.

  202. struth

    How would be the west be better off if Chinese goods became more expensive? All it would do is reduce real wages globally. Production would fall. The only gain in the west is a redistribution, not wealth creation or increased output.

    FMD.
    The west can’t compete while shackled to Paris and the UN.
    If the west could compete, that would raise Chinese prices in your mind?
    Let us revisit a statement above.

    The socialist pigs are squealing and he has the upper hand, because unlike certain people hear, he truly understands the power the US market has, and just how much these filthy countries have been parasitically living off it.

    We can compete very easily with China.
    It’s a corrupt playing field very much in China’s favour.
    How does unshackling ourselves from the UN’s global socialist policies to bring us down, raise prices in China?

    Oh and,

    DO YOU call free trade imposing no tariffs but accepting tariffs on your own exports?

    Yes or no.

  203. .

    struth

    No one here likes the UN or the Paris agreement.

    “China” is only really going to raise prices off the back of an increasingly skilled workforce, labour costs rise and they move towards more advanced products, whilst they lose to countries like Vietnam. This is what has actually happened over the last 20 years.

    We could exit the Paris agreement tomorrow. It is not enforceable and no one is willing to put up tariffs over it. Whether or not you compete with trading partners or not depends on the degree of specialisation and endowment sets the trading partners have, along with the degree of inter-industry trade.

    Take our coal for example. We have high-quality coking and thermal coal. If China taxes it, it is just a tax grab on a product with inelastic supply. Have you seen Chinese coal? Low quality. Subsidising that would send back Chinese industry and household use/standards of living.

    I said yes before struth, but you’re too proud to realise “you are right” means. Even if other nations don’t want free trade, *you* are still better off pursuing free trade alone (again, this is the most important part of this whole discussion). Tariffs are just another tax. The beneficiaries are the government, unions and inefficient industries.

  204. Iampeter

    I’m not changing the topic at all, Iampeter.

    He says, as he then proceeds to change the topic into yet another random direction.

    You’re now contradicting yourself in the same posts. Anymore posts from you and we may see what true stupid looks like.

    Hope you don’t hurt yourself.

  205. Iampeter

    Struth is the Cat’s very own capitalist socialist.

    He’s deep and has lots of “real life” knowledge.

  206. Norman Church

    Lincoln famously said of General Ulysses Grant, “I can’t spare this man, he fights”.

    That was what first attracted the Donald to me. He fights hard in a world where few are prepared to stand up to the bullies of the left.

  207. struth

    dot.
    this demented little fella is on your side of politics.
    Doesn’t that at least make you question yourself somewhat?

  208. .

    I’m on everyone’s side here.

    Doesn’t that make you all very worried!?

  209. BorisG

    HI Struth

    We all agree Chinese subsidies are bad.

    We do not agree that US imposing tariffs on Chinese goods helps the US. Sure it can help some sectors in the short term, but hurt others. sure it hurts China as well, but it does not benefit the US either.

  210. struth

    I get your basic economic reasoning.
    Always have.
    However in the face of the corruption the US ( and Australia) are facing here, simplistically grabbing hold of economics 101 is quite frankly, farcical.

    It’s like you saying “violence never solves anything”
    It’s a theory you’d like to believe in a just world.
    Unfortunately in this one, it’s a crock of shit.
    Same with your theories.
    We know this because the socialists are spitting the dummy out.
    There’s ya proof.
    It isn’t free trade when you apply no tariffs and have tariffs applied to what you make and export.
    That’s called being screwed.
    Free trade is both sides no tariffs.
    Or else it should be called free importing.
    You need to sell stuff before you can buy stuff.
    How’s that for a mind boggling theory?

  211. struth

    Boris G.
    It seems you assume no one will be able to produce as cheap as the Chinese.
    They are the cheapest due to corruption of the global market.
    They have no shackles on them as we do here in the west.
    Who knows what the prices of commodities will be with competition from the west.
    Corruptly, they have virtually no competition.
    Yet so called free traders like dot would like to see the status quo remain.
    I believe in free trade AND competition.
    So does Trump.
    And he knows the States, unlike the mindset here, is up for it.

  212. .

    Economics 101 always holds, and it is nothing like “violence solves nothing”.

    You need to sell stuff before you can buy stuff.
    How’s that for a mind boggling theory?

    Hmm yes well.

    1. Pitchford thesis.
    2. Flexible exchange rates now, and before WWI, gold price mechanism.
    3. The current account deficit is a capital account surplus.

  213. struth

    By the way, iampeter.
    That’s the way you debate.
    Call people what you like but add argument and reasons for your opinions.
    Don’t just get the shits because the world won’t recognise your brilliance and behave immatuely.
    I’ll be monitoring you to see if you’re worth responding too as I believe you to be young.
    If I don’t respond its because you are still acting like a spoilt brat.

  214. struth

    Ha ha dot.

    Got to go non nights.
    I can’t stay up all night arguing with someone who can actually think you can buy without needing to sell.

  215. .

    That’s not what I’m saying struth. It isn’t as simple as Robinson on Island A and Crusoe on Island B.

  216. struth

    Actually it is.
    It soooooooo is.
    It’s very much that simple.

  217. Iampeter

    That was what first attracted the Donald to me. He fights hard in a world where few are prepared to stand up to the bullies of the left.

    The Donald IS a leftie.

    He isn’t fighting anyone.

  218. Iampeter supports Merkel’s open invitation to North Africans and ME Muslims and then pretends surprise at the how this, given current conditions, has increased welfare spending, the crime rate, etc. He, and other libertarians, not all, want to argue about open borders as if this is severable from the actual economic and social conditions of Western states, which include welfare and Western mores. And then he wants to pretend that we are technically deficient in these matters.

  219. mh

    Iampeter states that Trump “isn’t fighting anyone”.

    From that statement we know that Iampeter has nothing to offer here.

  220. .

    struth
    #2741258, posted on June 19, 2018 at 1:20 am
    Actually it is.
    It soooooooo is.
    It’s very much that simple.

    No, it isn’t. A toy model with two entities each producing one good and trading with each other is the basis for a lot of other theories It certainly isn’t “wrong”, but it certainly isn’t a complete enough model to discuss protectionism in full. Just as MacDougall’s capital gap model is not sufficient to examine the domestic results of direct investment made abroad. If you remove tariffs then you are more likely to get more foreign direct investment inflows. What would previously be imported becomes part of consumption or exports in the national income accounting.

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