It’s baked in

In the past week, much has been spoken of the leadership “tensions” between Bill Shorten and Anthony Albanese.  This is especially since the Whiltlam Oration speech Mr Albanese gave last week.

Full disclosure, Spartacus has not read the whole Albanese speech, but what he did read was Nick Cater’s analysis article in the Australian.  From the heart of the speech:

Unions are our link to workplaces. And our workplaces link us to families.

The conservatives will always wage war against organised labour.

They can’t conceive of the idea people might work together towards a shared vision.

Their creed is self-interest and the law of the jungle – the political philosophy of selfishness propagated by the likes of Friedrich Hayek.

They are wrong.

No sir.  You are wrong.

Firstly, the suggestion that “conservatives will always wage war against organised labour” is not born of evidence.  Organised labour working with business to create and grow wealth is one thing.  Organised labour working to transfer wealth to themselves at the expense of everyone else is another thing.  For every CFEMMU there is a Cochlear.  And as a definitional matter, organised labour does not necessitate a union dear Mr Albanese.

Secondly, Mr Albanese, the suggestion that “They (“Conservatives”) can’t conceive of the idea people might work together towards a shared vision” is a fundamental fraud.  It is the fraud that is at the heart of the left progressive political vision.

The oldest fraud is the belief that the political left is the party of the poor and the downtrodden.  (Thomas Sowell)

People working together is the ultimate Burkean conservative construct.  It is certainly not a progressive socialist one.

Working together implies a voluntary act.  Conversely, the progressive vision is predicated on using the power of the state to make people forcibly work together.  Forcible work is their dream and central planning is their means.

It is actually the space between the citizen and the state where people can work together.  This space is civil society and is the space that the progressives seek to eliminate with the expansion of the the state and its government organs crowding citizens out.  The left progressive political vision, nirvana, can only be achieved through force.  This is not working together.  This is North Korean style democracy.  This is Venezuelan style democracy.  And here is a beautiful description of how that works:

The Venezuelan case is a textbook example of the evolution of socialism. While the Soviets and the Maoists had intricate five-year plans, Venezuela had essentially one big plan: Use the profits from state-run oil companies to fund a massive welfare state, and use the leverage thus gained to fortify support for Hugo Chàvez and his political party until they achieved power sufficient to move Venezuela’s assets and its people around like pawns on a chessboard. The problem is that people are not chessmen. Chàvez et al. turned out to be pretty poor chess players, but even if they had been grandmasters, it would not have been enough. Economies cannot in fact be controlled and managed in the way that socialists imagine, something that is much better understood today (thanks to our deepening appreciation of complexity) than it was when Ludwig von Mises and F. A. Hayek described the limitations of central planning in more qualitative terms.

Venezuelans are not fools — they noticed that this wasn’t working as advertised. When the critics began to say so, their newspapers and broadcast facilities were shut down; when they protested individually, they were jailed or assassinated; when they protested en masse, they were massacred. When central planning fails — and it always fails — the result is almost never the relaxation of political regimentation but the redoubling of efforts to impose the plan by increasingly brutal application of force. Sometimes that force takes the form of killings, torture, and beatings. In the old Soviet Union, in North Korea, and in Venezuela, it also has taken the form of politically imposed hunger. The largest share of the 100 million human beings murdered by socialist regimes in the 20th century died of hunger: in the cities, in the countryside, and in the gulags. The Holodomor alone killed between 7 million and 12 million people. Mao’s famine killed between 20 million and 43 million, and many of those deaths happened in places where food production remained at or close to normal rates: Appropriation of economic output for political purposes is always part of the plan.

If Mr Albanese really wants to create a society where citizens work together towards a shared vision he should start with resigning from the Labor Party and then campaign for a massive reduction in the state.  As Ronald Reagan said:

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn’t pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.

But freedom or “working together” are not in Labor’s plans.  Central planning and state control are.

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94 Responses to It’s baked in

  1. J.H.

    Well said. It’s a pity our elected political representatives are so ignorant of how free societies work… but then again, I suppose most of them didn’t become Politicians to represent a free society.

  2. Slayer of Memes

    In before anyone tries to claim that Venezuala “isn’t TRUE socialism”…

  3. Geoff Derrick

    Excellent commentary. Now just send it to the University of Sydney SRC’s Education Officer Lily Campbell who reports millennials are looking to socialism on Q and A, and who was also given a gig on the Outsiders recently, where she dropped herself into it with every sentence spoken.

  4. Fitter of East Melbourne

    What Grade 3 drivel Albanese preaches. I cannot fathom that he actually believes that bunkum, but is preaching in these tones purely for political gain. But who would believe it? It’s not 1932 anymore.

  5. Confused Old Misfit

    They can’t conceive of the idea people might work together towards a shared vision.

    What a f$wit! What does he think a company or a corporation is?

  6. egg_

    What does he think a company or a corporation is?

    He has NFI – he’s never worked in one?

  7. I’m a conservative and I’ve worked as both a blue collar and white collar worker in numerous different industries. Albo was being coy when he said conservatives will always wage war against organised labour. No, they grow to despise the Left and unions, that don’t look after the workers like they profess. Conservatives grow to despise the Left and unions that have a myopic vision and never encourage working together with those who create employment. I’ve observed nothing more selfish in my life than the Left and especially unions.

  8. Cary

    Obviously written by someone who has never been a union member, voluntarily or otherwise.

  9. Robbo

    From cradle to grave, that is the Labor Party way and no one demonstrates that more than Albanese. The arrogance of the lefties always astounds me, as does the stupidity of those who continue to vote for those grubs who could not give a rats arse for fairness, decency and honesty.

  10. Roger

    Unions are our link to workplaces. And our workplaces link us to families.

    Unionists in QLD threatened to rape the children of non-unionised labour.

  11. Howard Hill

    Cary
    #2749277, posted on June 28, 2018 at 2:36 pm

    Obviously written by someone who has never been a union member, voluntarily or otherwise.

    Farkorf. The uninion movement in Australia is a plague on the land.
    Like the plagues of old; everything it has touched needs to be burnt to the ground in a great cleansing.

  12. Obviously written by someone who has never been a union member, voluntarily or otherwise.

    I’ve been a union member, I couldn’t have worked in the places I have without being one. I still despise unions.

  13. Cary

    I couldn’t have worked in the places I have without being one

    Where would that have been? And when?

  14. struth

    Cary, please don’t comment here if you are too young to remember compulsory unionism.
    The adults are having a conversation here.

  15. duncanm

    I couldn’t have worked in the places I have without being one

    ditto here. Shelf packer at a major supermarket chain. All I got was my ticket clipped and forced into a shitty super fund for my casual wages.

    Sparty – this is a great post. I sense that you are getting more comfortable with your scribblings.

  16. Cary

    Ok. So Bemused was a coal miner or builders labourer in the 1970s. A long time ago mate. And you would’ve wanted to be a union member in those dangerous industries then. Don’t be so ungrateful in your dotage.

  17. Sparty – this is a great post. I sense that you are getting more comfortable with your scribblings.

    Thank you.

    See also – https://eyamspartacus.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/picture1.png?w=656

  18. A Lurker

    Mr Rub’n Tug seems to have a fixation on Conservatives.
    Much like Iampeter here on the Cat.
    I wonder if they are related other than in their ideology?

  19. A Lurker

    Just a little reminder about Australian Unions…

    Hal Colebatch’s new book, Australia’s Secret War, tells the shocking, true, but until now largely suppressed and hidden story of the war waged from 1939 to 1945 by a number of key Australian trade unions against their own society and against the men and women of their own country’s fighting forces at the time of its gravest peril. His conclusions are based on a broad range of sources, from letters and first-person interviews between the author and ex-servicemen to official and unofficial documents from the archives of World War II.

    Between 1939 and 1945 virtually every major Australian warship, including at different times its entire force of cruisers, was targeted by strikes, go-slows and sabo­tage. Australian soldiers operating in New Guinea and the Pacific Islands went without food, radio equipment and munitions, and Aus­tralian warships sailed to and from combat zones without ammunition, because of strikes at home. Planned rescue missions for Australian prisoners-of-war in Borneo were abandoned because wharf strikes left rescuers without heavy weapons. Officers had to restrain Australian and American troops from killing striking trade unionists.

  20. Dr Fred Lenin

    Venezuela is not a true socialist state as far as our meeja tells us ,they lack the requisite gulag political re eduction facilities they have no KGB to protect the people from being contaminated by the truth . If they had our truth meeja would tell us , we trust them don’t we ? ,they are so fair.
    For example ,there used to be a Liberal Opposition in Victoria ,they have gone from the scene since comrade Andrew Daniels took power,he will be standing for re election soon,will definately win since the meeja ignored the opposition. Good news ,!South Australia no longer has a State government since wethercock got the flick , don’t know who is running the state as the meeja doesn’t tell us but they must be saving a fortune with no political bludgers. PLenty of “news” about the sleazy union mafia gang and the communist gangrenes however Thank Gaia for the internet .

  21. H B Bear

    Albosleazy (and his offsider Plibbers) are both hard Left. That they are being spoken of as potential leaders gives you an indication of how far the Liars have moved desperately trying to protect their flank against the truly deranged Greenfilth. During the Hawke-Keating years they would have been lucky to even get a look at a Cabinet gig.

  22. nemkat

    Unions are our link to workplaces. And our workplaces link us to families.

    Is Albo using ”our” to mean ”the ALP’s”? Let’s see.
    Unions are the ALP’s link to workplaces, and the ALP’s workplaces link us to families.
    Sounds a bit remote.
    Hard to see a Jacindamania type campaign being constructed around this bloke.

  23. nemkat

    Albosleazy (and his offsider Plibbers) are both hard Left. That they are being spoken of as potential leaders …
    By ”hard Left, do you mean in the sense of them both being in the opposition faction of the ALP, or do you mean that they’re extreme Socialists?
    Because Albanese’s Whitlam Oration was a Call for corporatism, last seen in the 13 year long Hard Right Hawke/ Keating disaster.

  24. Where would that have been? And when?

    In the oil, gas and plastics industry. Many years ago now, but it opened my eyes to what unions were about. The CFMEU absorbed the metal worker union, but must have taken all of their bad habits with them.

  25. egg_

    the 13 year long Hard Right Hawke/ Keating disaster.

    Try the veal.

  26. Confused Old Misfit

    Shop steward in a TV station for IATSE (The International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, Its Territories and Canada ) of the USA & Canada for 2 years. Couldn’t wait to get the hell out of that racket.

  27. nemkat

    Looks like Shorten was planning the old Bait and Switch, and the dopey but ambitious Albanese tried to eat his lunch.
    The DLP took over the Labor Party when they got Whitlam up as Leader, you’re wasting your time looking for Socialists there.

  28. H B Bear

    Try the veal.

    nemsock brings a special kind of idiocy to the Cat.

  29. nemkat

    I remember the 1983-1996 Hawke/Keating disaster well.
    The general idea was that if all the important decisions were made by a cabal of Union Bosses, Business Bosses, and Political Bosses, we’d all be better off.

    Here’s how it worked in practice.
    Hawke decided there’d be no wage increases for anyone, and when the Pilots Union tried to buck that in 1989, he broke them, broke a few Airlines, broke the QLD Tourism Industry, broke Skase, broke the rebel pilots individually, and generally behaved like a First Class C..t.

    Hawke also decreed that there be a Price Freeze [The Wages/Prices Accord], but prices went up 10% a year anyway.
    After 8 years of this shit, people had switched off, so they brought in Keating, and another 5 years of shit.
    Did I mention effective interest rates of 25%/
    That’s what Shorten/Albanese have got planned.

  30. nemkat

    Hey, H B Bear, did i mention that jobs disappeared like bathwater down the plughole, and kids were repeating Year 12 as many times as it took to get a University Entrance score that might get them a job years down the track?
    Like, repeating Year 12 5 or 6 times.

  31. Percy Popinjay

    Mr Rub’n Tug seems to have a fixation on Conservatives.

    The Ferret Faced Fist Magnet™ usually refers to us as “Tories”.

    Imagine what a figurative bloodbath a debate on the merits of socialism and capitalism between Tommy Sowell and TFFFM would be.

  32. BorisG

    I cannot fathom that he actually believes that bunkum, but is preaching in these tones purely for political gain. But who would believe it?

    Sadly, a lot more people than you think.

  33. Dr Fred Lenin

    Hawke Keating they financed dozens of “universities “ with fifth rate teachers and filled them with so called students, paid by the taxpayers , and thus reduced the youth unemployment rate fron35 (or more ) per cent .We are still inflicted with third rate graduates who demand top dollar for third rate performance they can pass exams with 50 per cent a total fail before Hawke .

  34. mareeS

    Albanese has it so wrong on all of this.

    Spouse and I come from union families. My father was a federal president of his union, We two were state delegates of ours, back in the day, until the lovely fulfilling notion of free enterprise and using our own talents for our own purposes smacked us in the face at a young age.

    We went on from that tired old path to start our own businesses, sailed our own children on the path to self-sufficiency.

    What type of extinct dinosaurs would want to go back,to the economy-wrecking no-choice days?

  35. egg_

    The Ferret Faced Fist Magnet™ usually refers to us as “Tories”.

    All theatre IMHO, IIRC he played Rugby with/against Barnaby/Joe Hockey/etc.

  36. Northshore Redneck

    Brilliant post, bravo!

  37. Confused Old Misfit

    I would argue that there is a place in the culture for collective bargaining. However, the union movement is interested in the quest for fair wages and working conditions but is engaged in a power struggle for complete, unequivocal control of the culture.
    Up the worker! Up the worker good & hard!

  38. Tim Neilson

    Cary
    #2749316, posted on June 28, 2018 at 3:21 pm
    Ok. So Bemused was a coal miner or builders labourer in the 1970s. A long time ago mate. And you would’ve wanted to be a union member in those dangerous industries then. Don’t be so ungrateful in your dotage.

    So are you suggesting that in 2018 it’s possible to work on a commercial construction site in Victoria without having a CFMEU ticket? Or to get a job at Coles or Woolies without a Shoppies ticket?

  39. yarpos

    “They can’t conceive of the idea people might work together towards a shared vision.”

    wow, how does he think nearly everything in the modern world was created? was it all done by a bunch of hand wringing “progressive” union members.

  40. Davey Boy

    Unions want nothing more than a full month’s pay for a fair day’s work.

  41. nemkat

    So are you suggesting that in 2018 it’s possible to work on a commercial construction site in Victoria without having a CFMEU ticket? Or to get a job at Coles or Woolies without a Shoppies ticket?

    Working on Commercial in Victoria but refusing to join would depend on one’s size and potential for violence.
    Working for Coles or Woolies without a Ticket is just stupid, the Ticket is only $7/week, and then you’re not at the mercy of supermarket managers.

  42. Egor

    How easily does Albo tickle the enthusiastic majority Liblab wing into mumbling agreement.
    They just want a quiet Statist life.

  43. A reader

    Nemt you’re an idiot. As a pilot what Hawke did was the absolute best thing ever. The pilots were acting like total dicks and besides they didn’t strike they resigned en masse. Our industry is 100 times better for what he did.

  44. A reader

    At the mercy of supermarket managers? I did 8 years and my siblings 10 and we all started as teenagers. Only one joined the union and she was the only one screwed over because when she wanted help from the union they told her to go away. The rest of us who didn’t waste our money never had problems with unions or management

  45. jupes

    And our workplaces link us to families.

    What the fuck does that even mean? That ranks with “we are us”. Meaningless bather.

  46. nemkat

    . As a pilot what Hawke did was …
    then
    At the mercy of supermarket managers? I did 8 years …
    You were flying a plane in a supermarket?
    Or was the supermarket in the plane?

  47. jupes

    When central planning fails — and it always fails — the result is almost never the relaxation of political regimentation but the redoubling of efforts to impose the plan by increasingly brutal application of force.

    In the first stages this is true. However in most cases, after a generation or two people have had a gut-full and the army and police no longer are willing to kill their fellow citizens to live the socialist dream.

    Witness the fall of European communism and the acceptance of capitalism in China.

  48. a reader

    Ever heard of a job whilst training nemkat? Some of us had to self fund training in our chosen careers.

  49. nemkat

    8 years working as a checkout chick paid for learning to drive a Saturn Rocket?
    Is that it?

  50. a reader

    If you scrimp and save anything is possible. No smashed avo in my day

  51. a reader

    and if i’d wasted my money on union fees i certainly wouldn’t have managed it.

  52. Habib

    What Grade 3 drivel Albanese preaches. I cannot fathom that he actually believes that bunkum……..

    I can, that ferret-faced fist magnet could stupid professionally in international open competition. And win comprehensively. I’m surprised he doesn’t, the prize money would cover many visits to a rub-and-tug.

  53. egg_

    Saturn V Instrument Unit
    The Saturn V launch vehicle was guided by navigation, guidance, and control equipment located in the IU. A space stabilized platform (the ST-124-M3 inertial platform at location 21) measured acceleration and attitude. A launch vehicle digital computer (LVDC at location 19) solved guidance equations, and an analog flight control computer (location 16) issued commands to steer the vehicle.

  54. Sam Duncan

    Gotta love that juxtaposition of an accusation that we “can’t conceive of the idea people might work together towards a shared vision” and the citation of Hayek. Someone hasn’t read Hayek.

  55. Jimf

    “Near” topic: both parties love to crowd around the “working families” totem pole. Especially the socialists. The inference being families where wealth (or just survival) is derived from capital ,risk, and smarts isn’t as worthy, or the taking of this wealth is justifiable as it’s been achieved without “hard work”. One of Australia’s cultural dead-weights is a historical romance of the inherent “goodness” of manual/menial labour, and the corresponding sourness & envy towards industrious,resourceful wealth creators.
    Successful business owners work harder than anyone. It’s not fashionable to say so but it’s true. While I’m at it , successful salaried execs in private enterprise also do long hrs. I’d describe both these types as part of “working families” before any other category of faux,mythological “hard done bys”.

  56. None

    Well said, Sparty.

    And OMG how fucking Orwellion is this? “Unions are our link to workplaces. And our workplaces link us to families.” I don’t need unions or workplaces to link to my family and I sure as hell don’t want any union or workplace interfering in my family either. What a creep.

  57. Up The Workers!

    Freshly rubbed and tugged, Alwaysleazy, the “True Thai Rub-and-Tuggery’s” best-known customer, got up on his hind legs and delivered the Witless Orifice Speech in which he said:

    “The conservatives will always wage war against organised labour.”

    Maybe all that rubbing and tugging has affected his memory, but I seem to recall that the criminal former Federal President of his Party, Michael Williamson, is currently serving a 7-year prison sentence in connection with the thieving of $20 million of H.S.U. (Help yourSelf Union) funds.

    For the life of me, I cannot recall that any “conservatives” whatsoever – let alone a former Federal President of the Liberal Party – are currently (or have ever previously been) in prison for thieving the same, or greater amounts of Union funds than the criminal former Federal President of the A.L.P. did.

    Did Alwaysleazy perchance, nominate the precise date on which he or his current Party Leader will be handing over a cheque for the $20 million plus an appropriate rate of penalty interest in restitution of the cash that their criminal former Federal President embezzled? After all, they have now had all of 5 years in which to pay restitution and so far they haven’t had the decency or the honesty to do so.

    So much for Oily Alwaysleazy’s gillarding about it being “…the conservatives waging war against organised labour”.

    The conservatives don’t currently have any of their former Party Presidents in prison having been convicted of doing precisely that!

  58. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Excellent commentary. Now just send it to the University of Sydney SRC’s Education Officer Lily Campbell who reports millennials are looking to socialism on Q and A, and who was also given a gig on the Outsiders recently, where she dropped herself into it with every sentence spoken.

    My thoughts exactly on reading this. Send it to Lily, and put it into some university paper and blogs read by millennials. They have no sense at all of what a death cult socialism turns out to be and the reasons why this is the eventual outcome of such programs.

  59. Alexi the Conservative Russian

    Hear, bloody hear!

  60. Iampeter

    But freedom or “working together” are not in Labor’s plans. Central planning and state control are.

    In a previous thread you were arguing that “freedom” (which you haven’t defined anyway) is utopian and has never been seen before on earth and that “central planning and state control” are just inevitable anyway.

    So not sure what the issue is for you. You should be happy.

  61. Tom

    Brilliant post.

    Quite so.

    By the Cat’s Newspollesque measure — the flooding of the post by loony left trolls — Sparty is right over the target.

    I especially liked the one about the Slovenian Hag and Albo not belonging to the hard left. LMFAO.

  62. Iampeter

    Youarepeter, sir, are a fool

    Oh good argument.

    Like I said in the last thread, you have no position you can articulate and can only play the man.
    In reality you don’t really disagree with Labor on anything.

    Anyway, I won’t hassle you.

    Back to your random posts on random politic-y sounding things, where you pretend to talk about politics.

  63. Up The Workers!

    Heartening to see the democratic forces of what passes for honour, decency and gravitas, fighting for the upper hand in the Federal Leadership of the A.L.P.

    On the one hand, you have the Marrickville brothel-hopper, freshly rubbed, tugged and newly-fanged; together with the convicted ex-heroin-dealers’ spouse, acting as a tag-team to restore a modicum of Labor class, Labor dignity and Labor decorum to the Leadership, while on the other side, there is the gynecomastic accused gratuitous Geelong bonker of unwilling 16-year-olds at Young Labor gatherings, asserting his “droit de seigneur” rights over the more nubile members of his Party’s membership roll.

  64. Tel

    Oh good argument.

    Not an argument, just a conclusion that most people come to after reading what you write, and noticing that you never give a straight answer to a question, can’t follow any sort of logical inference, regularly use leftist tricks such as smear, name calling and distraction.

    It might not be obvious to you, but pretty much everyone can see these things.

  65. Iampeter

    Yea project some more Tel.
    I’m the only one who goes to the effort to patiently explain the entry level concepts you guys have no grasp of. You guys wouldn’t know what a political argument even sounds like, make unintentionally leftist arguments because you don’t know what you’re saying and then resort to ad hominems and then for the finish, start projecting your own behaviour onto me. Lol.
    This thread is ALREADY an example of this lol.

  66. Dear Iampeter,

    I’m the only one who goes to the effort to patiently explain the entry level concepts you guys have no grasp of.

    If you would be so kind to collate, and if necessary supplement, your patient explanations, Spartacus would be more than happy to post them on this site (subject of course to a check for profanity, defamation and other clear legal risks eg 18c). Please make your political and other arguments. In your words. Please don’t forward articles. Quotes fine, hyperlinks to others not fine.

    Cats and others can then draw their own conclusions.

    Have a nice day.

  67. Iampeter

    That sounds mighty nice of you Spartacus but I think if you were genuinely interested you would’ve demonstrated that the last time I put in the effort to answer you’re questions and more questions.
    Instead you seemed most disinterested and suggested I hear voices. Oh how drawl!
    You had no argument. You couldn’t even articulate what you disagreed with. There’s plenty of other examples over the last few years around the Cat of similar “level” of exchanges.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ll flame back and give as good as I get, but I’m not the initiator and I generally offer arguments as a starting point.

    You didn’t offer anything in that thread and you haven’t in this thread either, so don’t pretend you’re the better man or something.

  68. Iampeter

    That sounds mighty nice of you Spartacus but I think if you were genuinely interested you would’ve demonstrated that the last time I put in the effort to answer you’re questions and more questions.
    Instead you seemed most disinterested and suggested I hear voices. Oh how dr0ll!
    You had no argument. You couldn’t even articulate what you disagreed with. There’s plenty of other examples over the last few years around the Cat of similar “level” of exchanges.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ll flame back and give as good as I get, but I’m not the initiator and I generally offer arguments as a starting point.

    You didn’t offer anything in that thread and you haven’t in this thread either, so don’t pretend you’re the better man or something.

  69. Iampeter

    Double post sorry.

    But at least I spell “droll” correctly the second time.

  70. BTW, in that Hitchens thread you failed to counter any of my arguments. But you engaged in a lot of bluff and bluster.

  71. nemkat

    H B Bear
    #2749336,
    Albosleazy (and his offsider Plibbers) are both hard Left. That they are being spoken of as potential Tom
    #2749798

    I especially liked the one about the Slovenian Hag and Albo not belonging to the hard left. LMFAO …
    Okay, let’s say they are Hard Left.
    Some here claim National Socialism was on the Left.
    Either of you two geniuses care to explain the difference between Albanese, Plibersek, and National Socialism?
    Because according to your argument, they must be one and the same.

  72. nemkat

    That should be ‘spelt’.

    No. Spell works fine.
    Spelt is a type of grain.

  73. No, it doesn’t; and ‘spelt’ is also the past participle of spell.

  74. MichelLasouris

    I thought it impossible that Albanese would be a BIGER threat to prosperity, than that odious twerp, Shorten. But I was wrong.

  75. MichelLasouris

    BiGGer ….(sorry)

  76. nemkat

    Neither of them are a threat to the Big end of Town’s prosperity.
    They wouldn’t last 5 minutes in the ALP if they were.

  77. Tel

    I’m the only one who goes to the effort to patiently explain the entry level concepts you guys have no grasp of.

    You are someone who calls “racist” when someone tries to have a reasonable discussion with you about property rights. It’s recorded right here on this blog for a very long time. Classic leftist trick, Iampeter #2696968, posted on April 27, 2018 at 1:42 pm

    Don’t even bother pretending. You have revealed who you are.

    You were asked a perfectly simple question about the difference between legal and illegal immigration after you pretended that other people were talking about all immigrants when they were actually talking about the right of a nation to defend its borders against illegal immigrants Iampeter #2747126, posted on June 26, 2018 at 7:07 am

    You never have explained whether you even accept whether there IS a difference between legal and illegal immigration, or whether any person can cross any border at any time (i.e. open border). You just don’t have an answer so you pretend to be talking about something else.

  78. None

    Hahah whoever this lady is she just nailed Albo: trying to catfish Australians
    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1012667201101316096

  79. Iampeter

    Tel, you can’t BOTH be clutching pearls at how much I’ve offended you (something you don’t do with anyone else even though they are much ruder than me) AND at the same time also be continuing to engage me in debate.

    You just don’t have an answer so you pretend to be talking about something else.

    I’ve explained this numerous times and from numerous angles. You simply don’t want to accept the answer and keep trying to ask the same thing a different way hoping for a different response.
    I’ll try one more time because I’m a good sport, but after this I’m not going over the same thing over and over with you.
    Here goes:
    There is no such thing as an “illegal immigrant” to a right winger. Those of us who are right wing are supporters of rights protecting government which is a society in which only rights violations, like murder or theft, can be illegal. Immigration is not a rights violation and so should not be illegal. That’s it. It’s that simple.
    People who believe that you can regulate immigration are either leftists, who in general support regulating peoples lives where no rights are violated for all sorts of mystic and collectivist reasons, OR are simply politically illiterate and don’t know what they are saying. There ample examples of both here.
    E.g. you will argue “but I can deny entry to my house so why can’t state deny entry to country?” which is an example of a non-political argument.
    Or we’ll have Dover say something like “society should decide who gets to enter” which is a collectivist and therefore leftist argument.
    etc.

  80. tgs

    There is no such thing as an “illegal immigrant” to a right winger.

    Cmon, man.

    The idea that a free society can’t regulate who enters their borders is such a contradiction of property rights.

    Feels like you’re an elaborate troll at this point.

  81. Iampeter

    The idea that a free society can’t regulate who enters their borders is such a contradiction of property rights.

    A free society with property rights is one that has a rights protecting government and such a government doesn’t regulate immigration.

    Regulating immigration is like regulating any other, non-rights violating activity, like peoples businesses, or where they live or what they eat. Those that support these kinds of regulations (which are themselves rights violations) are the ones that are contradicting the idea of property rights.

    A state that can regulate who lives where is not protecting anyone’s property rights.

  82. Iampeter. Are there commons in this society. If yes who protects the commons.

  83. Iampeter

    I don’t know what you mean by “commons”.
    If you mean something like public parks, then it doesn’t matter who protects them since as a right winger I would argue all property should be privately owned.
    If you mean property owned by more than one person or something, then I wouldn’t characterize that as “commons” which is a very collectivist and leftist way of looking at it, and it is protected by the state. Which is its one and only job.

    But I don’t know what you’re asking so I’m just guessing.

  84. Iampeter

    Also I think its time I actually started asking some questions:
    1. Do you believe an individual exists as a real entity or do you think we are all just organs in some greater collective?
    2. Do you believe that individuals should have the right to live their lives as an end in themselves or do you think the purpose of the lives of individuals is just a means to some “greater good”?
    3. How do you think politics fits into these questions and what do you think its even about?

  85. Dear Iampeter,

    But I don’t know what you’re asking so I’m just guessing.

    Yes. By commons, Spartacus means public spaces, like parks.

    The problem Spartacus and he presumes others have with your comments is that you are envisaging and construction a world that has never existed, will never exist and one suspects that even if it did exist, no one would want to live in it. And for what purpose? So that you can say you are the purest of pure right winger. Well. Spartacus accepts that in your envisaged world, you are the rightest of right wingers. Hazzah.

    But this discussion is not about politics. This is about zealotry. In this world, there appear to be no parks, no roads and no other public goods. And this is a world with lots of fences and lots of police to patrol the fences. This a very dark place, but it is also a fantasy place.

  86. Dear Iampeter,

    In reply to your questions, these are Spartacus’s views.

    1. Do you believe an individual exists as a real entity or do you think we are all just organs in some greater collective?

    Spartacus does not accept the premise of your question. It implies a binary state in a world that is much more complex than you seem to accept. There are times we are individuals and times we are a collective. And there are times we are neither. The police in your world who protect property rights, are they individuals or part of a collective? On what basis do they exercise the powers given to them? Based on their individual predilections?

    2. Do you believe that individuals should have the right to live their lives as an end in themselves or do you think the purpose of the lives of individuals is just a means to some “greater good”?

    Again Spartacus does not accept the premise of your question which implies a binary state. One might also surmise that you don’t have children because if you did, you might recognise that the family unit is a socialist one. A baby cannot really fend for itself and protect it’s property.

    3. How do you think politics fits into these questions and what do you think its even about?

    There is no point in even attempting to answer this question because there appear to be different definitions and language at play. Spartacus does not really know what “politics” means/is defined as to Iampeter so there is no point for Spartacus to try to describe an apple when Iampeter sees an orange.

    Your discussion style seems like you are having a conversation with someone who does not speak your language. You increase the volume and speak slower assuming the other will understand you better. But in the end you are still speaking a foreign language.

  87. Rafe Champion

    On the Data Dashboard, a nice windy night, Wind and other deliver almost a K of energy, 650 compared with demand of 24 K.

    SA by far the most expensive power in the nation.

    Do they ever look at this in Canberra?

  88. Confused Old Misfit

    Rafe Champion
    #2751166, posted on June 30, 2018 at 10:08 pm

    No, Rafe! That can never be said too often nor can it ever be said in the wrong place.
    Bloody idiots who put other idiots in government!

  89. Iampeter

    The problem Spartacus and he presumes others have with your comments is that you are envisaging and construction a world that has never existed,

    There was a time planes didn’t exist, or iphones or electricity, etc. I guess we should’ve just stayed in the mud and darkness.
    But this is wrong anyway, since we literally have a country founded on the idea of individual rights and rights protecting government and every bit of freedom and prosperity that we have today is a consequence of my ideas. I shouldn’t even have to be arguing this on a supposedly political “right wing” blog but here we are.

    This a very dark place, but it is also a fantasy place.

    Well this is what I was saying in my first post which pissed you off. You think right wing ideas are “very dark” and “fantasy”. Not sure what your issue is with Labor then. You agree with them on more than you agree with a right winger like me.

    Or is it that you think that “Burkean Conservatives” or some such are an alternative to the left? Well then you are disastrously mistaken as he was an anti-enlightenment, anti-reason and anti-individual rights thinker who said things like “one of the first motives to civil society, and which becomes one of its fundamental rules, is, that no man should be judge in his own cause”, which is not all that different to what communists would go on to say.

    Like I said in my very first post in this thread and as you confirm in your own words, you don’t really disagree with the left on any of the fundamentals and regard alternative ideas as “dark”. Why bother fighting them? Just to have a slightly less left wing government? You don’t want Venezuela because that would suck but you don’t want a real alternative either because its “impossible”?

    Your discussion style seems like you are having a conversation with someone who does not speak your language. You increase the volume and speak slower assuming the other will understand you better. But in the end you are still speaking a foreign language.

    Yes indeed. This has been my point for a couple of years now. It seems that on Australia’s leading libertarian and centre-right blog discussing actual politics and ideas that are actual alternatives to leftism, is considered a “foreign language”.

    Talking about “Bill Shorten said this” or “Malcolm Turnbull grrr” is not politics. It’s just news.
    Getting the ideas that we are barely even touching on in this thread right and agreed IS politics. And needs to be sorted before ever bothering to talk about any policy.

  90. We look forward to reading your right wing blog and posts.

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