Trump’s Russian Revolution

Some further reflection on PDT’s dealing with Putin in Helsinki. The truly repulsive bit of the media flak were that nothing positive about the president would ever have been said by the clowns in the media no matter what had happened, not to mention that the last people in the world you would take instruction from on foreign relations, or on anything else for that matter, are journalists. All from Lucianne today.

Trump in Helsinki (II): A Long View
Chronicles Magazine, by Srdja Trifkovic    Original Article
Posted By: trapper– 7/20/2018 1:36:31 PM     Post Reply
Five days after the Helsinki summit I am inclined to believe that President Donald Trump either knows exactly what he is doing—that there is uncanny finesse and foresight behind his bluster—or else that he is guided by an almost unfailing intuition, with similar results. Trump’s refusal to parrot the Intel-deepstaters’ “Russiagate” narrative at last Monday’s press conference is a case in point. [snip] No evidence of any kind exists to prove Russian meddling in 2016, or thereafter. It never will be found, because Podesta’s and DNC mails were leaked, not hacked.
Whisper it but despite his terrible week, Trump
may be absolutely RIGHT to pursue this new
bromance with Putin
Daily Mail (UK), by Piers Morgan    Original Article
Posted By: ladydawgfan– 7/20/2018 3:04:46 PM     Post Reply
President Trump’s had a very bad week. By appearing to side with Russia over his own intelligence agencies on the question of election interference, he made himself look unpatriotic, anti-American and as weak as a ‘wet noodle’ to quote Arnold Schwarzenegger. Trump’s subsequent attempt to wriggle off his self-imposed hook by claiming he meant to say ‘wouldn’t’ not ‘would’ was laugh-out-loud ridiculous. But at least he seemed to realise the offence his original comments had caused. Yesterday, Trump reverted to type and doubled down on the furore by inviting Russian president Vladimir Putin to the White House in a few
Republican Voters Buoy
Trump on Russia/Putin
Real Clear Politics, by Caitlin Huey-Burns    Original Article
Posted By: Toledo– 7/20/2018 11:38:31 AM     Post Reply
As President Trump continues to stumble past his press conference with Russian President Vladimir Putin earlier this week, Republican voters are handing him a lifeline. Though many GOP lawmakers have been critical of the president´s statements in Helsinki, party voters are registering their support for Trump´s handling of Putin. According to a CBS News poll released Thursday, 68 percent of Republicans approved of the president´s performance, even as 55 percent of voters overall, including 53 percent of independents, disapproved. And a Reuters/Ipsos poll released Tuesday found that 71 percent of Republicans approved of Trump´s handling of Russia even as more
Who Is Betraying America?
Real Clear Politics, by Caroline Glick    Original Article
Posted By: garnet– 7/20/2018 11:25:23 AM     Post Reply
Did US President Donald Trump commit treason in Helsinki when he met Monday with Russian President Vladimir Putin? Should he be impeached? That is what his opponents claim. Former president Barack Obama’s CIA director John Brennan accused Trump of treason outright. Brennan tweeted, “Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki [with Putin] rises to and exceeds the threshold of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors.’ It was nothing short of treasonous.” Fellow senior Obama administration officials, including former FBI director James Comey, former defense secretary Ashton Carter, and former deputy attorney general Sally Yates parroted Brennan’s accusation. Almost the entire US media joined them in condemning
Trump Keeps on Ticking
American Spectator, by George Parry    Original Article
Posted By: Pluperfect– 7/21/2018 5:27:02 AM     Post Reply
Pearl Harbor. Kristallnacht. Treason. High crimes and misdemeanors. These are some of the hyperventilating left’s overheated and ludicrous characterizations of President Trump’s remarks at his Helsinki press conference with Vladimir Putin. Listening to the Democrats and their wholly owned media subsidiary, you would have thought that Trump had (a) smilingly handed Putin a large red “reset” button or (b) had been caught on a hot mic during a global nuclear security summit murmuring to Putin’s representative that, after the midterm elections, he would have more flexibility in his dealings with Russia or (c) had signed off on a deal to give
Trump invites Putin to DC
and trolls the Trump-haters
American Thinker, by Thomas Lifson    Original Article
Posted By: PageTurner– 7/20/2018 11:08:47 PM     Post Reply
President Trump appears to be playing out a geopolitical agenda with Russia´s Vladimir Putin and keeping his cards so close to his chest that even his director of National Intelligence, Dan Coats, is in the dark. When the White House revealed yesterday that Putin has been invited by national security adviser John Bolton to the White House for talks, Coats was publicly humiliated at the Aspen Security Conference, where he learned about the invitation onstage, “where he had been telling the audience that the U.S. is ´under attack´ by Russian cyberforces,” according to Dave Boyer and Seth McLaughlin of the

AND THIS JUST IN: From Trump, Russia, and Manufactured Hysteria. Here’s the final para:

In the end, the critics of the Trump-Putin summit were going to hate whatever Trump said in Helsinki because they are in fundamental disagreement with the president about the nature of foreign policy for America. They knew they would hate it and they had their weapons at the ready. Trump and his foreign policy are the real threat to them, not the words spoken in Helsinki. This is the natural response of a ruling class that cannot fathom a foreign policy approach apart from the progressive cornerstones of American exceptionalism and the goodness of government bureaucracy. Thankfully Trump has a different approach.

To which may be added the following post at Powerline: Against the Hysteria.

Michael Anton puts the “treason” hysteria occasioned by President Trump’s Helsinki press conference with Vladimir Putin in a larger context (in a Wall Street Journal column also posted here on Outline).

So few Churchills and so many Chamberlains everywhere.

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52 Responses to Trump’s Russian Revolution

  1. BorisG

    There is some truth in that it is difficult to take many of Trump’s critics seriously as they will criticise him almost no matter what he does.

    Likewise it is hard to take many of the Trump’s supporters (like Steve Kates) seriously as they will always defend their dear leader no matter what he does.

    yet in this case he clearly crossed the line, and was criticised even by those who are some of his loyal supporters, who have been very reluctant to criticise him no matter what. Newt Gingrich is the prime example.

    Trump himself realised he went too far and went into a scripted damage control, so uncharacteristic of him.

    I personally support over 50% of Trump’s policies but I always thought he is fatally flawed character that could lead to disaster. My fear is it is just the beginning.

  2. mh

    So much Dumbocrat hyperbowl this week, but one thing has gone under the radar. The Dems want the translator at the Trump Putin one on one discussion to testify before Congress! The TDS is so deep that the Dems and the MSM are willing to ruin everything for every future US President.

  3. Dr Fred Lenin

    All tis hate ,you would think Trump had sold 25 per cent of the US uranium supply to the Russians ,Right? Oh wait on !wasnt that someone with a foundation ? And a resident of the White House?

  4. BorisG

    The Dems want the translator at the Trump Putin one on one discussion to testify before Congress! The TDS is so deep that the Dems and the MSM are willing to ruin everything for every future US President.

    It is not under the radar, it is discussed everywhere. I guess everyone would love to know what was said but this is clearly a step way too far.

  5. mh

    So few Churchills and so many Chamberlains everywhere.

    The WW2 references have been coming thick and fast this week. Therefore we should remember that we have in the past fought a common enemy with the Russians.

  6. Trump didn’t invent that silly “would/wouldn’t” explanation because he realised he had gone too far. It was to ironically implicate the actual treason in the inventive attacks on the office of the president by the FBI and Obama.

  7. mh

    The manufactured hysteria is a shock and awe tactic. That Plan A is not working, probably because Americans have historically low levels of trust in the media right now. So what is their Plan B?

  8. Russian revolutions don’t tend to end well for political leaders.

  9. Mark A

    m0nty
    #2769616, posted on July 22, 2018 at 12:09 am

    Russian revolutions don’t tend to end well for political leaders.

    I suppose that’s true for any nation, after all the reason for revolutions is that people are deeply unhappy with their political leaders.

    Having said that, what’s your point here Monty? Did you just want to make a statement, or do you know something we don’t?

  10. Egor

    Howl at the Trump moon as you wish, I think he loves it. The teflon Don is unaffected, look at the polls since the Putin chat, still at 50%. That burns the comrades something fierce.

  11. Having said that, what’s your point here Monty? Did you just want to make a statement, or do you know something we don’t?

    What do you think the end game is for Putin, Mark? Is he going to be happy with getting Trump elected, or is he going to want more? How does he consolidate on the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of owning an asset in the Oval Office? Or is there a point coming up soon where he takes his winnings and cashes out, then ties up loose ends the KGB way. It’s real life Game of Thrones stuff.

  12. Mark A

    m0nty
    #2769632, posted on July 22, 2018 at 1:59 am

    Having said that, what’s your point here Monty? Did you just want to make a statement, or do you know something we don’t?

    What do you think the end game is for Putin, Mark? Is he going to be happy with getting Trump elected, or is he going to want more? How does he consolidate on the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of owning an asset in the Oval Office? Or is there a point coming up soon where he takes his winnings and cashes out, then ties up loose ends the KGB way. It’s real life Game of Thrones stuff.

    You play too many computer games Monty.

    I used to work in Russia every year before 2016, (a colleague, she married a Russian bloke and she was granted permanent position),
    I never noticed any tendency to a revolution, and people in general live a lot better than they used to. Sure they’d would prefer even better, but don’t we all?

    Had a month stint this year again as she was on maternity, and I still, after 3 years absence from the place, can’t see much of a germ of an uprising.
    ——————————-
    I can’t think of a better reply, simply because I don’t understand what you are getting at.
    If you think Putin has Trump in his pocket and Trump will play into the Russians’ hands, then I must concur with the rest of the cats, you are delusional.

    Boris, even Boris would not go that far, and he is probably more anti Trump than you are, proof of it is his constant disclaimers, about how much he appreciates some of Trump’s policies.

    This is a new one by him BTW, only a few weeks old, in answer to our criticism of his one eyed view everything Trump.

  13. The Democrat Elites will soon enough realise that their constant cry of ‘wolf’ is backfiring resoundly. Even Democrat supporters, if not leaving the party, are becoming critical of this constant hysteria where even the dumbest of Democrats is realising that it’s making them look stupid.

  14. stackja

    Again DT is annoying all the right people. USA has to get along with Russia. One day who knows that Russia will change more.

  15. Iampeter

    Some further reflection on PDT’s dealing with Putin in Helsinki.

    You mean more evasion on PDT’s dealing with Putin in Helsinki.

    Comparing Trump to Churchil after his cowardly, beta male and appeasing performance in front of Putin along with the disastrous NK summit and all round total lack of any clear foreign policy makes you as bad as the “clowns” in the media that you keep criticizing.

  16. Rafe Champion

    Come on Iampeter, tell us what you really think about Trumpie!

  17. Mark A

    Rafe Champion
    #2769654, posted on July 22, 2018 at 7:33 am

    Come on Iampeter, tell us what you really think about Trumpie!

    Don’t tempt him Rafe, for God’s sake, hard to take him restrained as he is trying to be.

  18. Gary

    Boris, even Boris would not go that far, and he is probably more anti Trump than you are, proof of it is his constant disclaimers, about how much he appreciates some of Trump’s policies.

    It looks more tactical then genuine recognition.

  19. Iampeter

    Come on Iampeter, tell us what you really think about Trumpie!

    I’ve said it before but Trump is largely a continuation of the Obama administration as we see from trillion dollar spending bills, no repeal of Obamacare and incoherent and appeasing foreign policy.
    On many issues the Trump administration has gone even further left than Obama, like the attempts to block AT&T’s merger, anti-trade and anti-immigrant policies.
    And on top of that it is an all round incompetent administration with Trump’s own appointees in constant conflict with Trump and even being played into or directly involved with investigating him for non-existent crimes, instead of people like Hillary and Comey.

    Basically if you like Trump then you should LOVE Obama and Bernie since they are the same on all the essentials except Trump is worse at politics than they are.

    Trump fans are not fighting the left, they are just being the usual useful idiots.

  20. Angus Black

    The elites hate Trump because….
    ….well because they hate Trump (and, of course, he beat Dillary)

    There really is no point in looking for a rationale because there isn’t one. You could ask to elites what they wanted Trump to do, have him do it, and still (suicide or resignation, apart) they’d still criticise him. Because Trump.

    There will be rationalisations, many of them, but the basic story is written before the event.

    I’m a pragmatist. Middle America has more jobs, higher wages; the stock market is buoyant; the extreme left are tearing themselves apart. What’s not to like?

    Go the Donald!

  21. Angus Black

    …and he stuck one up Juncker (I’ve never seen a brandy bottle I didn’t love) and the rest of the EU establishment. That alone would have been good enough for me. Then there is winding back the climate change insanity….

    Go the Donald!

  22. Tel

    Obamacare is dead in the water. The most important two money pipes have been clamped shut: [1] the tax on individuals who want to opt-out from the system, and [2] the illegal subsidies paid by Obama to insurance companies to sweeten it for them.

    What happens when it finally burns to the waterline is anyone’s guess. Presumably both insurance companies and healthy people will simply drop out and go and do something else.

  23. Boambee John

    Reactionary running dog

    What do you think the end game is for Putin, Mark? Is he going to be happy with getting Trump elected, or is he going to want more? How does he consolidate on the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of owning an asset in the Oval Office? Or is there a point coming up soon where he takes his winnings and cashes out, then ties up loose ends the KGB way. It’s real life Game of Thrones stuff.

    Never change reactionary lackey. It seems from your account that, having bought and paid for Shrillary with the Uranium One deal, Putin decided he needed to buy both candidates in the election.

    When you have a moment, I have a bridge to sell you.

  24. Iampeter

    What happens when it finally burns to the waterline is anyone’s guess. Presumably both insurance companies and healthy people will simply drop out and go and do something else.

    Yea but Obamacare was always design to fail. Once this happens it will be used as a springboard to call for further socialization of healthcare in America.
    What is needed is a total repeal of Obamacare passed on politically literate arguments explaining why its not a function of government to be involved in healthcare.

    Conservatives and Trump have no such arguments.

    If Obamacare collapses in say the second Trump term, we may even see conservative government help bring about socialized medicine in America.

    Can’t wait for Steve Kates articles supporting Trump then.

  25. Boambee John

    From Instapundit

    PUTINSPUPPET: No big deal, just the Trump administration sending $200 million in military aid to Ukraine.

    If, as m0nty claims, Putin “owns” Trump, then he is not getting good value for the money he spent on the purchase!

  26. Gary

    Little Imp reminds me of David Hogg. A drama queen with an inflated sense of importance and a delusion of originality. An emerging authoritarian for sure.

  27. Little Imp reminds me of David Hogg.

    An excellent analogy.

  28. When Trump deals with the NK nukes and the Iran Mullahs with the help of Putin, some here will go missing for a couple of weeks.
    We know who you are.

    When you confront someone weaker than you but prefer a fist fight didn’t start, you don’t go in making accusations (half of which you yourself are guilty of) and making threats, because if your opponent doesn’t back off, you can’t then go all friendly and nice like. Fighting is the only option.
    The right thing to do is to start softly softly. Your opponent knows you’re stronger and most likely doesn’t want to get his head kicked in, but you always have the option of doing so. NO POINT CORNERING YOUR OPPONENT. ALWAYS GIVE HIM A WAY OUT.

    The American establishment tried to goad Trump into going all hard ass on Putin knowing Putin would NEVER bow his head. It’s not in his nature. THEY WANTED CONFLICT.
    Trump didn’t fall for it but he did have a bad press conference, so the establishment is going apeshit.

    None of it matters. What matters is the situations in NK, Iran and Syria, all of which CANNOT be solved without some help from Russia.
    It’s in Putin’s interest (worth billions to him) to help with the above three and get the sanctions removed and be invited back on the World stage. Trump knows this and will use to his advantage. He is used to dealing with mafia types. Been doing it all his life in the NY property market.
    Trump will win on this, and those with TDS will look like the dills they are.

  29. classical_hero

    There’s a meme going around where you have former Presidents engaging with President Putin and there was no problem, but suddenly when President Trump it’s not alright.

  30. André M

    If you want to know why Democrats think there is collusion with Russia at the elite level, it’s probably due to events like this happening in Trump’s political base:
    https://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/07/alabama-based_league_of_the_so.html

    Hard to believe that ideologies like this still persist in anybody in the world, let alone within the USA, but there you have it. Trying to connect this event with the Trump administration is a rather long bow to draw, so of course the progressives have tried doing exactly that.

  31. BorisG

    even Boris would not go that far, and he is probably more anti Trump than you are, proof of it is his constant disclaimers, about how much he appreciates some of Trump’s policies.

    How I am anti-Trump when I support over 50% of his policies?

  32. BorisG

    USA has to get along with Russia.

    That is excellent, but does this mean he supports Putin’s policies. Let’s leave US elections aside, as this is still under investigation. Does he support Putin’s invasion of its neighbours, bullying of others, support for Iran and Turkey, use of WMD in the UK etc.

    when asked directly, Trump is against these policies, but it appears from all his interactions with Putin that he does not care. I can understand that many of his supporters don’t care either. However the danger here is that it will encourage Putin to continue with these policies. This might not cause many troubles in the short term, but is dangerous in the long term.

    For instance based on DJT’s attitude to NATO, Putin may decide that the Baltic states are fare game. He may thus instigate some ethnic clashes in one of these states and then send in ‘volunteers’ to defend ethnic Russians. this may lead to dangerous confrontation before we know it.

    The west needs to be sending a strong and consistent message to Putin that his ways are not acceptable and that for any of such steps there will be a stiff price to pay. Trump’s behaviour with Putin undermines this message.

  33. BorisG

    There’s a meme going around where you have former Presidents engaging with President Putin and there was no problem, but suddenly when President Trump it’s not alright.

    Both GW Bush and Obama tried to build bridges with Putin by being nice to him but this only embolden Putin, and both changed their course (Bush actually apologised for his initial remarks). Why repeat the same mistakes?

  34. BorisG

    There’s a meme going around where you have former Presidents engaging with President Putin and there was no problem, but suddenly when President Trump it’s not alright.

    I have been consistent in my opposition to Putin’s regime from day one.

  35. BorisG

    It’s in Putin’s interest (worth billions to him) to help with the above three and get the sanctions removed and be invited back on the World stage.

    But help with the above won’t remove sanctions as they were imposed after invasion of Ukraine, and cannot be removed until he withdraws. Will he?

  36. Makka

    yet in this case he clearly crossed the line, and was criticised even by those who are some of his loyal supporters, who have been very reluctant to criticise him no matter what. Newt Gingrich is the prime example.

    Boris, you are such a dim bulb. Will you NEVER get it? Trump has precious few supporters in his own party. THEY too are part of the swamp.

    They too are under threat from Trump and they will fight tooth and nail to see him gone. Bush, Romney McCain etc they and their hangers on cannot stand seeing their power, wealth and influence taken away and handed to the people that put Trump in office.

    You profess to be without bias. Utter bullshit. Any support given to Trump’s opposition is supportive of the deep state. It’s really is at present a case of black and white. Good and Bad.

  37. bobby b

    You certainly have some sharp tacks commenting here. They seem to make the same comments every time Trump does anything: “NOW he’s done it, he’s toast, what a buffoon!”

    Here in the USA, after a week of nonstop idiocy from the media, from Democrats, and from fake Republicans, it seems that Trump’s ratings went up.

    Given how our “intelligence” agencies and law enforcement bigwigs have prostituted themselves in their attempts to take down an elected president, We The People get a huge kick out of listening to them telling us that Trump’s questioning of their performance and character constitutes treason.

    Not so. Everything Trump said in Helsinki was correct. Everything the media has said has been an attempt to make us forget that the “Russia is spying on us” chapter has been designed to make us forget that the e-mails released by the DNC (oops!) were real, and illuminated a pervasive rot.

    The progressives almost – almost – pulled off a takeover of my country. They failed. Maybe if they had succeeded, they could claim that fighting them was treason. But they didn’t.

  38. BorisG

    support given to Trump’s opposition is supportive of the deep state.

    what about Gingrich ?

  39. Makka

    On relations with Russia. The article of faith seems to be with many that it is wrong to reward Russia and Putin for their behaviour. It is also an article of faith that Trump is naive and somehow under Putin’s thrall.

    Both articles are bullshit. Trump’s stated diplomatic agenda is one of engagement with strength. You only have to think logically about what Trump is doing to understand that Trump is squeezing Russia very hard while holding out the opportunity to engage with the US and the west by much more productive means. Carrot and stick.

    There are the multitude of financial and person directed sanctions that cut Russia and many large companies in oil, gas and resources off from finance , freedom of movement and global banking access. The US is upping it’s Defence spending and building out it’s assets in space. The US is continuing to strengthen NATO( and it’s pissweak EU membership). A few weeks back Trump put the EU on notice that he is against the proposed new Russia/EU gas pipeline – we’ll hear more on that. Trump has brow beat the EU for buying too much Russian gas. The US has sent clear messages to Putin in Syria that they better stfu and play ball. Not a peep from Russia.

    OTOH, as seen in Helsinki, Trump is signalling a desire for a much more constructive relationship with Russia IF they demonstrate responsible behaviour. He is not signalling weakness of any kind with the big stick already imposed in fact sanctions could be imposed much more heavily. Putin knows this.

    People need to understand that there is no way change on Russia will be imposed from the outside. It is for the Russians to decide their future and make the necessary changes. This view is detested by the US Establishment who have been meddling in others affairs since WW2. Why? Because of the BILLIONS flowing through corrupt outfits like the CIA perpetuating the Russian danger.

    The struggle going on over Russian relations in the US is about filthy lucre, money. And how the deep state can continue to get their hands on it.

  40. Makka

    what about Gingrich ?

    A fat failure. Overrated with no guts for the real fight. He’s a Washington insider first and foremost.

  41. mh

    Here in the USA, after a week of nonstop idiocy from the media, from Democrats, and from fake Republicans, it seems that Trump’s ratings went up.

    Last week was Kristallnacht, it will be interesting what the media come up with this week.

  42. Gary

    Pretty amateurish BorisG.

  43. BorisG

    On relations with Russia.

    I wish you were right, Macca. I personally doubt it. Watching Trump he gives an impression that he genuinely admires Putin and by and large does not object to his policies.

    Maybe he is just pretending. I hope so. Time will tell.

  44. Dr Fred Lenin

    There is money to be made inventing lies to tell about Trump and selling them to the demented ,there’s a quid to be made selling it to the clinton foundation ,getting back some of our money giliard gave to ensure a well rewarded job overseas in case the law decides to prosecute on the thefts she was involved in stealing widows and orphans money with her larcenous lover .

  45. Makka

    Watching Trump he gives an impression…..

    Exactly. It’s the impression he wants to convey.

    I don’t really care what he says except in the context of what issues he’s drawing attention too or focusing on. His verbiage is often a distraction of sorts. It’s how he operates.

    It’s what he does and importantly, what results from his actions that matters.

  46. Cassie of Sydney

    “Iampeter
    #2769720, posted on July 22, 2018 at 9:26 am

    If Obamacare collapses in say the second Trump term, we may even see conservative government help bring about socialized medicine in America.”

    I told you yesterday that you should seek help. You need to make that appointment asap.

  47. Lutz

    From the Spectator

    “”If you insult Putin in public, like by telling the newsmedia just before or after meeting with him that he is the Butcher of Crimea, and he messed with our elections, and is an overall jerk — then you will get nothing behind closed doors from Putin. Putin will decide “To heck with you, and to heck with the relationship we just forged.” Putin will get even, will take intense personal revenge, even if it is bad for Russia — even if it is bad for Putin. Because there are no institutional reins on him.

    But if you go in public and tell everyone that Putin is a nice guy (y’know, just like Kim Jong Un) and that Putin intensely maintains that he did not mess with elections — not sweet little Putey Wutey (even though he obviously did) — then you next can maintain the momentum established beforehand in the private room. You can proceed to remind Putin what you told him privately: that this garbage has to stop — or else. That if he messes in Syria, we will do “X.” If he messes with our Iran boycott, we will do “Y.” We will generate so much oil from hydraulic fracturing and from ANWR and from all our sources that we will glut the market — if not tomorrow, then a year from now. We will send even more lethal offensive military weapons to Ukraine. We can restore the promised shield to Eastern Europe that Obama withdrew. And even if we cannot mess with Russian elections (because they have no elections), they do have computers — and, so help us, we will mess with their technology in a way they cannot imagine. Trump knows from his advisers what we can do. If he sweet-talks Putin in public — just Putin on the Ritz — then everything that Trump has told Putin privately can be reinforced with action, and he even can wedge concessions because, against that background, Putin knows that no one will believe that he made any concessions. Everyone is set to believe that Putin is getting whatever he wants, that Trump understands nothing. So, in that setting, Putin can make concessions and still save face.””

  48. Lutz

    Sorry about that I got the links messed up, but it works anyway.

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