Sanjeev Sabhlok: Fraser Anning’s ill-articulated concerns are a fight for Australia’s soul

I moved to Australia nearly 18 years ago. Many people in India were astonished, given I was so close to the top of the pecking order of India’s governance system. But I had become increasingly frustrated with the ultra-corrupt governance system. It was time to get out.

To me Australia represented both a well-governed country and a country that had largely adopted the concepts of liberty and rule of law: concepts that underpin the idea of Western civilization, also known as liberalism.

I was fortunate to find a role as a public servant from the vantage point of which I found that Australia’s governance system is – for the most part – driven by good rational thinking and sensible economic analysis.

But I am also keenly aware of Australia’s rapid drift to the left. The foundations of liberty that attracted me to Australia are being rapidly eroded – not so much by any “blacks” but by “white” leftists.

My concerns are similar in some way to those of Fraser Anning, but the confusions in his speech made the media lose the bigger picture – the defence of Western civilisation that he was talking about. A careful review of Anning’s speech suggests that he was basically defending the foundational ethic of Australia as a Western liberal democracy.

He did not even remotely suggest that anyone be exterminated. All he suggested with regard to immigration was a plebiscite. If the media can’t understand the difference between the two, then something has gone seriously wrong with basic English education in this country.

You can hear the echo of many of his ideas in the views of more sophisticated commentators like Paul Kelly who in his 11 August article in The Australian (“Australia ignores its successful integration policies at its peril”) raised many of the same issues that Anning pointed out, such as “Central to this task is the unresolved story of Muslim integration”.

This is now a major issue staring us in the face. I was alarmed when I recently discovered that a 23- year old woman visitor to Australia was forbidden by the Police from walking down the Haldon street in Lekemba suburb in Sydney because Muslims might be offended.

It is high time for all Australians to unite to defend its core foundations of liberty and democracy. That includes insisting that all faiths should be able to happily live here so long as no one threatens violence. The Police must defend people’s liberty to walk down a street. Anning is right to raise a real and very fundamental problem – the impending loss of Australia’s soul.

I consider myself more “Western” (as a firm promoter of critical thinking and liberty) than most Australians. In fact, not many people are aware that the core ideas of liberty, tolerance and good economic policy first arose 2500 years ago in India and spread, through Greece, to the West. It is a tragedy that India has by now long forgotten its roots – perhaps driven by the kinds of collectivist forces that are now beginning to take roots in Australia. Collectivism always finds a way to crush liberty. And then only the rubble and ruins remain.

Australia should not turn its back to liberty. The tide against the fragile idea of liberty needs to be resisted.

In like vein, I am concerned about the concept of multiculturalism by which “ethnic” groups are specially funded by taxpayers to maintain their culture. I cannot agree with my taxes going towards funding even Indian cultural societies and groups to which I belong. No one must get any special favours from the government on grounds of their “race” or culture. Let Indians who want to maintain their culture do so with their own money.

In fact, such leftist multicultural policies are creating ghettos within Australia and we need to make sure that everyone who lives here does so as an equal Australian. All of us Australians must be mentally prepared each day to fight, if necessary by bearing arms, for the concept of Australia as the land of the free. Where else will we go if the soul of Australia is lost?

I can appreciate that Fraser Anning’s poor educational background might have caused the significant confusions that still operate in his mind. He seems to think that there are different races. That’s incorrect. We are all a single human species. He needs to learn some biology. And while he is right to oppose Marxism by stealth, he forgets that the vast number of Australians who are now turning to Marx for inspiration are his “fellow-whites”. I’m sure he also knows that East Europe and the USSR were not “black”, either. This is not a white or black issue at all. It is the issue of those who will fight for liberty vs. those who fight to strengthen the state and at the same time cower before threats from one religion or another, locking out swathes of Australia.

Anning’s own leftist economic ideas come from the playbook of Marx, things like direct control over the economy (e.g. loans to farmers) by the state. He needs to cleanse himself of his Marxist roots. In that sense he himself is part of the threat to Western ideals in Australia.

It is in order to educate my fellow Australians in basic economics that I’ve recently written the first edition of my free book entitled, Seeing the Invisible. Maybe Anning can look through it and learn something useful and become a genuine promoter of Western civilisation.

We need to fight the noxious weed of statism and big government together as a nation lest the lifeblood of the people is choked and Australia brought to ruin.

Notes:

My analysis of Anning’s speech.

My free economics book for children.

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105 Responses to Sanjeev Sabhlok: Fraser Anning’s ill-articulated concerns are a fight for Australia’s soul

  1. tgs

    Excellent post.

    Hope you continue to contribute to the Cat, Mr Sabhlok.

  2. struth

    can appreciate that Fraser Anning’s poor educational background might have caused the significant confusions that still operate in his mind. He seems to think that there are different races. That’s incorrect. We are all a single human species. He needs to learn some biology.

    Asians don’t have Blonde hair, spudnik.
    I smell the arrogance of the Indian upper class here.
    Your theories are sound but not infallible.
    Good luck to you, for your theories are good and mostly sound, but you may need to check your institutional education against an understanding of life.

    Species and race are not the same thing.
    However, culture is everything.
    And some culture is born of environmental and racial considerations, and vice versa.

    Dogs are all the same species too.
    Two Dobermans don’t produce Labrador puppies.

  3. testpattern

    ‘Anning’s poor educational background might have caused the significant confusions that still operate in his mind. He seems to think that there are different races. That’s incorrect. We are all a single human species’

    Wrong. Anning is immersed in the neo nazi white genocide conspiracy theory and with those who promote it. He knows the language of genocide very well and uses it routinely in respect to south africa. He knew exactly what he was saying.

    Right. Race is a fabrication, long discredited.

  4. struth

    Right. Race is a fabrication, long discredited.

    Then there are no Aboriginals.
    Thanks for clearing that up, shitfa…..

  5. testpattern

    ‘there are no Aboriginals’

    It’s Pontifex Spinifex! Dug some native wells lately huh?

    Firsts. Precedence not race.

    Now fuck off back to the Perry Saleam Party branch of your retirement village.

  6. Stimpson J. Cat

    I moved to Australia nearly 18 years ago.
    Many people in India were astonished, given I was so close to the top of the pecking order of India’s governance system.

    Australia thanks you for your sacrifice.

  7. Well said.
    I do not know about “core ideas of liberty, tolerance and good economic policy first arose 2500 years ago in India and spread, through Greece, to the West” I have read about Buddha and that he was not too happy about Feudalism but did know that he had wider ideas of democracy. I know about the Greeks introducing democracy and economic policy but then not everyone one was equal and they relied on slaves. The Romans also had some democracy before Caesar , but they also had slaves. 1215 and the Magna Carta was a start but that was limited to landed gentry. The rise of city states in Europe and UK gave some power and liberty to artisans and trade people. The Swiss Confederation started in 1291 and they lead the way for the likes of the USA. At federation, Australia was more democratic than at present with both the Liberals and Labor wanting centralisation and legislation to empower small groups of elites which will lead to dictatorships (Turnbull and Shorton would love to be president)
    Australia needs to introduce direct democracy as in Switzerland. There needs to be a system of recall for all elected persons plus senior public servants and also the judiciary (the high court should not have been allowed to interpret the referendum on “counting aborgines” as citizens). The government should have no right to introduce apartheid.

  8. Stimpson J. Cat

    I was fortunate to find a role as a public servant from the vantage point of which I found that Australia’s governance system is – for the most part – driven by good rational thinking and sensible economic analysis.

    Was there a specific reason why you didn’t stay in India, the country of your origin, to fight the corruption and make it a better place for your family, friends, countrymen, and children?
    To try and fight to bring about all those qualities in India which are already present here?

  9. Makka

    Thanks Sanjeev, excellent post. Please comment more regularly on this subject . Thanks too Sinc for putting it up.

    If the media can’t understand the difference between the two, then something has gone seriously wrong in basic English education in this country.

    The Media and the Uniparty know exactly what they are reading and doing. They will spin and use every opportunity to cow as rednecks and racists those who see no national value in importing any more moslems. As a clear strategy, they must be denied such opportunities so that the core message can eventually cut through.

    Anning is right to raise a real and very fundamental problem – the impending loss of Australia’s soul.

    It is the core issue. The Uniparty and it’s Marxist media are in cahoots to turn the nation through voteherd imports into a shithole like the one you Sanjeev wisely left behind.

    In fact, such leftist multicultural policies are creating ghettos within Australia and we need to make sure that everyone who lives here does so as an equal Australian.

    Correctly as you state, it is Marxist leaning whites who are collaborating to shove these immigration policies down our throats. Mumticulti is an abject failure. It was expediently propagandized to create the impression that peoples of vastly different cultures, religions, backgrounds can all be mixed into a Kumbaya society. When in fact it was to smooth the way into Australia of the voteherds for the Marxists.

    Once again great post, thanks.

  10. Roger

    He did not even remotely suggest that anyone be exterminated. All he suggested with regard to immigration was a plebiscite. If the media can’t understand the difference between the two, then something has gone seriously wrong with basic English education in this country.

    That’s being charitable, Sanjeev.

    The media deliberately misrepresented what Anning said. So did Minister Dutton.

    They don’t want the topic of mass immigration – numbers, countries of origin and cultural impact – to be debated, period. The charge of racism and the associations with Nazism are meant to render critics of immigration as beyond the pale of polite discourse.

    You, however, are in a position to side step the charge of racism that is brought against any white Australian who raises these topics. I wish you every success in that endeavour.

  11. jupes

    There’s a lot of good sense in there Sanjeev, but this is kooky:

    He seems to think that there are different races. That’s incorrect.

  12. jupes

    Also what do you think about Muslim immigration? Should we ban it?

  13. Davo

    Excellent article; and fairly clear when people think.

    Nearly all academic research agrees that diversity is good if it is aligned with a common goal (different races etc but one culture; multicultural society is just ignorant idealism heading for problems as like groups gravitate to each other and transpose all bad things to the others).

    In organisations and teams you align different people and skills to a common goal, that’s what binds them. For us it should be our shared culture. Let us evolve our culture by integration, but little enclaves showmthe stupidity and total ignorance of their people running the country. All these ill informed interest group media people, largely lefties (seems leftist and stupidity go together…just illustrate the in-out theory above)

    You’d think that the pinicle of Australian politics would understand basic social psychology; but alas, the don’t and just fear upsetting some self interested group

  14. Baldrick

    Yes, let’s get down to specifics. What’s your take on Muslim/Islamic immigration Mr. Sabhlok?

  15. Infidel Tiger 2.0 (Premium Content Subscribers Only)

    Great article.

  16. testpattern

    ‘Also what do you think about Muslim immigration? Should we ban it?’

    I didn’t know Anning was a Muslim. Strip him of citizenship and deport him to Satafrica!

  17. John Constantine

    Australia was never Great.

    Greatness is reserved to describe those that progress the eternal victory of their Great Transnational Looting Cartels.

    There are no borders, no countries and no history, just one miraculous and never ending looting and pillaging of the worldwide gulag of proles by our new owners and overlords.

    The richest elites rule over the poorest and most desperate squalor, because that way is more thrilling.

    Comrades.

  18. Roger

    In fact, not many people are aware that the core ideas of liberty, tolerance and good economic policy first arose 2500 years ago in India and spread, through Greece, to the West.

    That’s debatable, Sanjeev. You might like to flesh out the connections, as you see them, from the Vedas to the Greeks for us sometime. In any case, that ancient Greece is the source of Western liberalism is an historical over simplification, as Larry Seidentop has shown.

  19. Stimpson J. Cat

    In fact, not many people are aware that the core ideas of liberty, tolerance and good economic policy first arose 2500 years ago in India

    Wow.
    What went wrong?

  20. None

    Might quibble on the India as the source of Enlightenment to the Greeks (even if Sanskrit is a foundational Indo European language) but you are welcome to expand on that some time. Otherwise very good post. Thanks, Sanjeev. Have you worked in any other capacity apart from as a public servant in Australia?

  21. Mother Lode

    The ‘there is only one race’ thing actually annoys me a bit as a rhetorical device.

    Race is a division specific to humans – no other animal nor any plant get referred to with ‘race’.

    The word race in ‘Human race’ verges on redundant since it covers all humans, and it is not used to distinguish the race of humans against the race of, say, dogs or cats.

    ‘Race’ as in subdivisions of humanity in fact communicates a distinction. How significant that division is is debatable. To me it is skin deep, while to others it signifies differences I would ascribe to culture. But it means enough that we can dispute supposed racial characteristics even to the extent of demarcating the extent of agreement and disagreement.

  22. RobK

    Thanks Sanjeev. A worthwhile read. Common decency is becoming a lost art it seems.

  23. Stimpson J. Cat

    It was a good article Sanjeev, and I hope you will continue to post.
    The thing that struck me the most when I was in India is how much they need people like you there to lead the charge, by example, otherwise nothing will change.
    This frustrates me immensely as you can see.

  24. Roger

    The ‘there is only one race’ thing actually annoys me a bit as a rhetorical device.

    Rhetorical device or not, it’s correct.

    All humans share 99.9% of DNA, with the .1% variation largely attributable to genetic flow and drift.

    We are all related.

  25. struth

    Firsts. Precedence not race.

    Who are the firsts?
    They must be fucking old.
    You, little racist Teste, know, even as thick as you are, that your arguments of convenience contradict each other.
    Who are the firsts?
    The aboriginal race, but when convenient, they don’t exist.
    Poor trolling.
    D minus.

  26. struth

    All humans share 99.9% of DNA, with the .1% variation largely attributable to genetic flow and drift.

    We are all related.

    Hippy bullshit.

    We are all humans.
    “Related” is a variable depending on who you speak to.
    Although I get your point, the one I am making is that let’s get back to what race always was.
    Asians, Negroid, Caucasian ( whites, Aboriginal, Indians etc)
    And if any of you can’t pick out the differences you are as willingly blind as any leftist.

  27. None

    Your place is genetic relative is your sibling. Next.

  28. None

    Your closest genetic relative is your sibling. Next.

  29. Roger

    And if any of you can’t pick out the differences you are as willingly blind as any leftist.

    Of course you can identify genetic differences, the point is they have little actual significance biologically.

  30. Sanjeev – your story is not that dissimilar to what i have done moving to Japan.

    Notable exceptions – i have no entitlement to welfare, if i cannot show that i am able to support myself my residency will be revoked and i MUST leave the country within 6 months.

    All interviews regarding my residency or living here are conducted in Japanese both written and verbal. Our neighbors are asked if i fit in to our local community and their opinions have great weight.

    I can understand why you moved to Oz for its perceived freedoms, but the Oz i knew as a boy is gone, it is toast.

    Run, run to South East Asia or the Pacific Rim to work, it’s a lot more rewarding with a hell of a lot less tax.

  31. Neville

    Good post, Sanjeev, well-expressed.

    Except for:

    Species and race are not the same thing.
    .. different races. That’s incorrect. We are all a single human species. He needs to learn some biology ..

    Yes, humans are one species; yes, there are clearly different genotypes within that species. The (current) shorthand spoken description of those genotypes are ‘races’, and they are expressed very neatly (as Struth, above, notes – thanks Struth), within that one species, in these terms: Species and race are not the same thing. However, culture is everything. And some culture is born of environmental and racial considerations, and vice versa.
    Richard Dawkins, and earlier, Charles Darwin, have both most clearly and succinctly illustrated how exactly new ‘species’ come about by divergence of genes with particular genotypes within a species present at any given time in the history of living things on this planet.
    It’s objectively obvious that there are different ‘races’ among humans, or whatever word one may like to invent to use instead of the current emotionally-charged (but nonetheless accurate) term ‘race’.

  32. Neville

    BTW, Mother Lode #2790811 also expresses the point well:

    ‘Race’ as in subdivisions of humanity in fact communicates a distinction … To me it is skin deep, while to others it signifies differences I would ascribe to culture.

  33. .

    How does race cause culture?

    Quite frankly that’s a stupid and dangerous idea.

  34. Fat Tony

    dot
    #2791009, posted on August 16, 2018 at 7:47 pm
    How does race cause culture?

    Quite frankly that’s a stupid and dangerous idea.

    Ahh….dot’s speciality – stupid & dangerous ideas (unlike his/her/its pet mussies, of course)

  35. .

    You don’t have an argument, do you Tony?

    You don’t come here for the hunting, do you?

  36. candy

    People need to belong, to a family, to a town, to a workplace, to a groups of mates, to a city, a nation, a race.

    Probably race is the wrong word but I think it’s innate to feel belonging to a “race”, like testpattern does with the indigs. It doesn’t mean one culture is better than the other by any means, it’s not a competition, but I think folks are comfortable belonging to their culture and identifying with it. ’tis only natural.

  37. Mr Black

    There is no possible way to integrate a critical mass of hostile immigrants. We are now cursed, essentially for our lifetimes and probably a lot longer, with a low IQ, violent sub-population living in many of our major cities. They are either forced to integrate, with real, terrifying force, or expelled. They see themselves as eventual conquerors and Australians as pathetic weaklings. One does not adopt the culture of people you despise.

    I really hate the high minded nonsense of people with money and position who have never been involved in a street brawl or had their home invaded by thugs. To them crime is a statistic that happens to other people, a trend to be “managed”. It’s an appallingly heartless and disconnected view of the reality on the ground. Personally, I’d be happy to expel every non-western foreigner that moved to Australia in the last 30 years, with very limited exceptions. Yes, we would suffer in various ways but we’d gain so much more, things that only an older generation has a memory of now.

  38. struth

    . It doesn’t mean one culture is better than the other by any means, it’s not a competition,

    Sometimes I wonder what planet you are commenting from Candy

  39. stackja

    ‘The safest thing for Australians is that we don’t have any of them’: Senator stands by anti-Muslim speech
    15/08/2018
    ALAN JONES FRASER ANNING KATTER’S AUSTRALIAN PARTY
    Senator Fraser Anning is standing by his maiden speech to Parliament in which he praised the white Australia policy and referenced “the final solution”.

    The Katter’s Australian Party senator called for a ban on all Muslim immigration, saying it’s “the safest thing for Australians”.

    Mr Anning tells Alan Jones some of his comments were taken out of context but insists we must stop those who practice Islam from being allowed into the country.

    “Look if you can tell me which ones are not going to cause us harm, then fine, that’d be great.

    “But unfortunately if you have a jar of jelly beans and three of them are poisonous, you’re not going to try any of them.

    “I’m afraid that the Muslims, as a group, there’s going to be three or four or five per cent that are going to mean us harm.

    “Because I can’t tell who’s who, I think the safest thing for Australians is that we don’t have any of them.”

    The senator has also been condemned for using the term “the final solution”, which was used by Hitler to describe the extermination of Joows.

    Mr Anning insists that context never crossed his mind.

    “The thought police jumped on that. I hadn’t even though about it.
    Link at bottom to listen or click share for other options

  40. Neville

    How does race cause culture? Quite frankly that’s a stupid and dangerous idea.

    Aaaand the Liberal Democrat Party strikes again … Care to put a name to yourself, Mr ‘dot’, also known by your hyperlink to the ldp.org.au”? No?
    Nobody I saw here said “race causes culture”. What was discussed is how race, culture, appearance, ethnicity, and all the other parameters that make up a “race”, INCLUDING its culture, are part of all human societies. And over thousands of years and hundreds of thousands of generations, create a “race”, even though all humans share [99.999% or whatever people are saying above] most of their genes.

  41. .

    Nobody I saw here said “race causes culture”.

    Oh no?

    What was discussed is how race, culture, appearance, ethnicity, and all the other parameters that make up a “race”, INCLUDING its culture

    Your culture does not make up part of your genetic identity.

    Either you’re obtuse or being mendacious.

  42. struth

    Stop it you thick bastard dot.

    Culture is the problem.
    Islam is a shit culture (in this case so controlling of every part of it’s followers lives) that a religion can be classified as a culture.
    It is violent against other cultures and yet you think that selling tickets to citizenship is an actual idea that should be taken seriously.
    It’s nothing but traitorous insanity.
    You should have you arse kicked, and not that long ago, in a previous Australia, suggesting it would have got you exactly that.
    Pull your fucking head in with this open borders lunacy.

  43. Neville

    And YOU, Mr LDP, are taking remarks out of context – again.
    Project your ‘obtuseness’ and ‘mendacity’ back where it belongs, please.
    I’m done with you, Mr/Mrs/Ms/Mz/hesheit no-name.

  44. struth

    By the way, dot.
    Aboriginal culture sees them always painting their bodies white.
    Something that would be pointless if they weren’t black, ya space cadet.
    Sometimes, race influences culture.

  45. Boambee John

    test pattern at 1538

    Firsts. Precedence not race.

    Good news for us seconds?

  46. .

    Can any of you speak English?

    You haven’t been taken out of context, you’re doubling down.

    It has been asserted that culture makes up part of one’s genetic identity.

    That is A grade, rolled gold bullshit. Or you cannot express yourselves competently.

    struth has almost broken through the language barrier. Well done.

  47. Boambee John

    But are test pattern’s “firsts” really the first. There seems to be reasonable evidence that they are really “seconds” or “thirds”.

    Sanjeev

    I have said here before that I am comfortable with a multi racial Australia with a common culture, but not a multicultural Australia. Rule by the Raj spread a common culture to many parts of the world. We should take advantage of that.

  48. jupes

    Can any of you speak English?

    LOL

    The master debater working his magic again.

  49. Stimpson J. Cat

    Can any of you speak English?

    Whoa!
    That’s a bit racist.

  50. Snoopy

    So Dot you’re arguing that the geographical isolation necessary to give rise to the genetic variations we label ‘races’ for convenience did not also encourage the development of discrete cultures?

  51. .

    Not at all Snoopy.

    What you’re discussing might be true in some trivial cases (who is better at basketball, who is going to invent stir fy meals) but then you get well-defined cultural variation within racial groups (Gauls v Romans). It also means a lot less when people have transport and communications.

    You’ve articulated it correctly at least and understand how the causation works, but the idea that a racial group with a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever is a very silly and dangerous idea.

    Which you can form as a conclusion if you’re not precise enough with your language.

  52. struth

    Dot , no one said that.
    The problem with you is that you are a theorist as most libertarians are, but with really poor comprehension skills.
    Not a good combination, you utter throbber.

  53. Snoopy

    I don’t think Inuit culture was trivial.

  54. Fat Tony

    dotty
    #2791168, posted on August 16, 2018 at 10:15 pm
    Not at all Snoopy.

    You’ve articulated it correctly at least and understand how the causation works, but the idea that a racial group with a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever is a very silly and dangerous idea.

    Which you can form as a conclusion if you’re not precise enough with your language.

    Please explain then how our blackfellas still had an early stone-age culture after 40,000….60,000….80,000 + years?

    No doubt one of the books you read said that the Abos’ culture would have blossomed around 1800 and caught up with the West anyway if whitey hadn’t stuffed it up for them with genocide, smallpox blankets, every other pox and poisoned flour etc.

    Just when, why and how would they have changed?

    Islam is much the same.

    (And, from your earlier comment, I have never hunted bear).

  55. .

    It was asserted that culture makes up part of one’s genetic profile. That’s wrong, stupid and dangerous.

    No doubt one of the books you read said that the Abos’ culture would have blossomed around 1800 and caught up with the West anyway if whitey hadn’t stuffed it up for them with genocide, smallpox blankets, every other pox and poisoned flour etc.

    I have never engaged in such revisionist nonsense. The fact that Aborigines can have a normal life when not beset with parasites from the industry says I’m right about the assertion I am objecting to, as I explained to Snoopy.

  56. Fat Tony

    dotty

    but the idea that a racial group with a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever is a very silly and dangerous idea.

    Would our blackfellas have stayed in the early stone age for another 50,000 years if they had been isolated from the advanced civilisations?

    I would have thought that would be a pretty simple question to answer, considering your quoted statement above.

  57. Fat Tony

    but the idea that a racial group with a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever is a very silly and dangerous idea. is your quote.
    Our blackfellas were a go-nowhere culture – 60,000+ years in early stone age – would they have changed?
    If not, then your statement above is wrong.
    If you think they would have suddenly changed and advanced, show how that would have happened.

  58. .

    Who says “they” were even here for 60,000+ years?

    Don’t forget that there were three waves of indigenous settlement, but this is being erased from history pedagogy now.

    If you think they would have suddenly changed and advanced

    I never implied that at all. Recent evidence shows agriculture in Israel dating back 22,000 years. I’m not disputing that the change is gradual without the meeting with a more advanced culture.

  59. struth

    Their culture was full of superstition and savagery.
    It kept them down as does Islam to it’s adherents.
    Some cultures are infinitely better than others.
    Ours is the best.
    That’s why the country shoppers want our culture never the other way round.

  60. Fat Tony

    If you think they would have suddenly changed and advanced

    I never implied that at all.

    For fuck’s sake, you’re a slimey little shit. You stated it was a very silly and dangerous idea that a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever. Our blackfellas did precisely that – by their own reckoning for 60,000+ years. Regardless of actually how long, they were early stone age in 1788.

    So now you’re saying you didn’t actually mean what you said?? Or you think it meant something else??

  61. .

    But they came into contact with a more advanced culture. It is irrelevant as to what might have happened.

    Their culture doesn’t exist anymore for the most and they’re not doomed to that forever. Because of my contention – culture is not genetically determined.

    Circumstance does it for the most part. Jared Diamond has a good explanation as to why.

  62. Fat Tony

    Their culture doesn’t exist anymore for the most and they’re not doomed to that forever. Because of my contention – culture is not genetically determined.

    If they had no contact, they would still be early stone age. And in another 10,000 years, they would still have been early stone age. They had not changed in the past, but you’re saying they would have changed regardless in the future? Why? How?

    It is irrelevant as to what might have happened. No it isn’t – we’re talking hypotheticals here – you said it was a very silly and dangerous idea that a go-nowhere culture is doomed to that forever.
    So demonstrate how, in the case of our blackfellas, they would have advanced to our level without any outside help.

  63. .

    So demonstrate how, in the case of our blackfellas, they would have advanced to our level without any outside help.

    I never argued they were destined to do anything at all.

    The causes for a lack of progress are not genetic; witnessed by the integration of a lot of Aborigines into regular society. Otherwise, they’d genuinely be stuck in the stone age. They’re not.

    I’m starting to repeat myself.

  64. Chris M

    Thank you Sanjeev – very eloquent and well written. Wonderful contribution!

  65. Fat Tony

    I’m starting to repeat myself.

    And that’s all you do – it’s pretty pointless trying to have a discussion with you dotty.

  66. egg_

    Firsts. Precedence not race.

    Red-headed blackfellas with Irish surnames are “Firsts”?
    Glad you cleared that up, Einstein.

  67. egg_

    culture is not genetically determined

    Low tolerance to alcohol?

  68. egg_

    That’s why the country shoppers want our culture never the other way round.

    Immigrants come from sh1tholes*, relatively speaking.

    *Trumpspeak.

  69. A Lurker

    It doesn’t mean one culture is better than the other by any means, it’s not a competition, but I think folks are comfortable belonging to their culture and identifying with it. ’tis only natural.

    Candy, would you state that a headhunting culture was equivalent in worth to a culture that created the Sistine Chapel? Would you state that a culture that performed female genital mutilation, encased their womenfolk in death shrouds and made them equal to livestock was equivalent in worth to a culture that gave women the vote? Would you state that a cannibalistic culture was equivalent in worth to a culture that created the Pre-Raphaelite paintings? Would you state that a culture that cut the hearts out of living people in order to appease their god(s) was equivalent in worth to a culture that created Handel’s Messiah, Pachelbel’s Canon, or Bach’s Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor?

    If you think that all cultures are equal, then you really need to reappraise your thinking.

  70. egg_

    Who says “they” were even here for 60,000+ years?

    Don’t forget that there were three waves of indigenous settlement

    Don’t mention that to Testes’ Aboriginal Industry.

  71. A Lurker

    Actually dot, culture does effect human genes.

    You shouldn’t be able to drink milk. Your ancestors couldn’t. It is only in the last 9,000 years that human adults have gained that ability without becoming ill. Children could manage it, but it was only when we turned to dairy farming that adults acquired the ability to properly digest milk.

    It turns out that cultures with a history of dairy farming and milk drinking have a much higher frequency of lactose tolerance – and its associated gene – than those who don’t.

    Drinking milk is just one of example of the way that traditions and cultural practices can influence the path of our evolution. Culture and genetics are traditionally thought of as two separate processes, but researchers are increasingly realising that they are intimately connected, each influencing the natural progression of the other. Scientists call it “gene-culture co-evolution.” Why does it matter? If we can pin down how culture influences our genetic makeup – and how the same processes apply to other creatures too – then we can be better understand how the way we act as a society today could influence our future.

    Cue dot’s apology now.

  72. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    culture is not genetically determined

    We have had this discussion before, the answer is that genetics is a contributor to culture.

  73. A Lurker

    Humans are only one species. The definition of a species is when individuals of that species can successfully reproduce and create a new generation that is sexually able to reproduce.

    For example, two of the same species: horse+horse=another horse that can sexually reproduce.
    For example, two of the same species: Homo sapiens+Homo neanderthalensis. Current human populations carry up to 4.0% Neanderthal DNA (sub-Saharan Africans are the exception to this) proving that way back in time, humans and neanderthals were of the same species.

    Then you have two of different species: female horse+male donkey=a mule, which is sexually sterile.

    The meaning of race (as lifted from the internet) is this:

    A human race is defined as a group of people with certain common inherited features that distinguish them from other groups of people.

  74. Herodotus

    Australia’s soul has been tainted by the long march, which now extends through all institutions and all political parties. The fuss over Anning’s speech is just another beat up which seeks to distract from discussion of the basic common sense in the proposition that muslim immigration be restricted.

  75. Tom

    Great post, Sanjeev. The use of political correctness by the neo-fascist ruling class to attack our freedoms is a cancer on the West and, among so-called Western countries, Australia is now virtually unrecognisable to the souls of hundreds of thousands of men who died defending its freedoms.

    No thanks here to the thread-wrecking by the resident open borderist Dot and the most vile of Australia’s white racists, Test Pattern (a.k.a. Old Salt), who hangs off the Cat like a dag on a sheep’s arse.

  76. Boambee John

    Dot
    #2791232, posted on August 16, 2018 at 11:29 pm
    But they came into contact with a more advanced culture. It is irrelevant as to what might have happened.

    This is one of the best arguments that the current indigenes were tge first.

    If they came later, they would have had contact with more advanced cultures, in India, Burma, Malaya, Java or slash and burn agriculture in PNG.

    This is not to say that they did not exterminate other groups alongside whom they might have lived here.

  77. BorisG

    Anning not just proposed a plebiscite on Muslim immigration. he proposed return to pre Whitlam consensus. Under which the esteem author of the above post would not have been able to come to Australia and defend this national socialist (which is what Anning is).

  78. Iampeter

    I was fortunate to find a role as a public servant from the vantage point of which I found that Australia’s governance system is – for the most part – driven by good rational thinking and sensible economic analysis.

    Sounds legit. Everyone chooses their career paths based on vague buzz words like “governance systems” and “sensible economic analysis”.

    All he suggested with regard to immigration was a plebiscite.

    Yes and if our political discourse was even remotely above the level of rock bottom then people would’ve pointed out that this issue does not require a plebiscite. That this is not what plebiscites are for. That you cannot outsource legislation to the mob because our elected officials and “public servants” don’t know anything about politics and have no working theory of government.

  79. struth

    If you don’t want Mussies in here blowing us up and running over crowds, then according to Boris G you are a Nazi.

    Dickhead.

  80. Iampeter

    We need to fight the noxious weed of statism and big government together as a nation lest the lifeblood of the people is choked and Australia brought to ruin.

    How? With more statism and big government?

  81. candy

    Would you state that a culture that performed female genital mutilation, encased their womenfolk in death shrouds and made them equal to livestock was equivalent in worth to a culture that gave women the vote?

    Of course not, A Lurker, but it’s the numbers of immigration that is the issue here, to my mind. If people feel crushed up, cultural differences become amplified.
    I don’t want to get to thinking one culture is superior and making judgments on other cultures, rather look at what’s best here and it seems no government has ever consulted the voters.

  82. BorisG

    you don’t want Mussies in here blowing us up and running over crowds, then according to Boris G you are a Nazi.

    I did not say he is a Nazi. He is a nationalist and socialist (as the above post asserts.

  83. struth

    and defend this national socialist

    Those are two words.
    Are they a “phrase”, Boris G.
    I am just doing to you what you are doing to him.
    You know what you were saying.

  84. Excellent article with just one ‘mistake’: human beings around the planet are one species Homo sapiens with many different races making up this species. The term ‘race’ is a scientific one, meaning a group of individuals which have physical or other characteristics which are determined by their genetic make-up (their DNA). Biologists accept the concept of race throughout the animal kingdom, especially in birds, and it applies equally well (and is totally non-judgmental by the way) to humans.

  85. .

    Lurker.

    Where did I say epigenetics doesn’t matter?

    FFS.

  86. .

    Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)
    #2791325, posted on August 17, 2018 at 5:55 am

    culture is not genetically determined

    We have had this discussion before, the answer is that genetics is a contributor to culture.

    Only in the most trivial of ways that is irrelevant if a group is no longer isolated.

  87. Tom

    Struth, the left relies on useful idiots like Boris, unable to argue with facts or logic, but able to parrot the left’s dumbed-down talking points — i.e., everyone I don’t like is LITERALLY HITLER!!!!

    If you want to be able to argue with grown-ups, Boris, start trying to imitate them instead of flooding non-leftist blogs with infantile ideological tantrums.

  88. .

    Oh right, you mean “grown-ups” like that pathetic white supremacist Zippy?

    Fuck off you utter clown.

  89. .

    That’s just great Tom – no one cares. This site is infested with losers like Zippy who actually tried to push the idea that only white people ever invented any new technologies.

    In won’t abide by it and I won’t put up with your misguided moralising.

  90. Ellen of Tasmania

    Drinking milk is just one of example of the way that traditions and cultural practices can influence the path of our evolution.

    I think I’d like to tease out the ways we speak of ‘culture’. The most often used is in regard to food, music, dance, architecture etc. and it’s easy to see that location, resources and – to a lesser extent – genetics (like the lactose example) play a significant role in that.

    But another fundamental shaper of culture is the underlying values and beliefs that qualify what we consider virtues and vices, right and wrong.

    “Culture is simply a worldview made evident. It is basic beliefs worked out into habits of life. It is theology translated into sociology. Culture is a very practical expression of the common faith of a community or a people or a nation. Culture is, in other words, religion externalized.”
    (https://crosspolitic.com/culture-religion-externalized/)

    It’s in that second sense where I believe we can truly say multiculturalism is a problem. And in that sense, the ethnicity of a person is far less important than their religion/worldview. Food, music etc. can be incorporated, blended or lost, but values, not so much. Especially for those of us who believe in truth.

  91. Aidan Stanger

    I was alarmed when I recently discovered that a 23- year old woman visitor to Australia was forbidden by the Police from walking down the Haldon street in Lekemba suburb in Sydney because Muslims might be offended.

    I think we’d all be alarmed by that if it were true. But it’s fake news!
    This report explains what really happened.

    And whether Marx advocated something is immaterial – it says nothing about whether people’s rights are respected, nor about the outcome. Government loans to farmers is a sensible policy when there’s a market failure in the finance sector (as the Royal Commission has revealed there is). Marxism is now far less of a threat to Australia than dogmatic antiMarxism!

  92. Iampeter

    We have had this discussion before, the answer is that genetics is a contributor to culture.

    Culture is determined entirely by the dominant ideas of the people that make up that culture.
    Genetics doesn’t have anything to do with it.

  93. struth

    Genetics indeed does effect culture to a degree, even if to a small degree, and it is easily proven.

  94. .

    struth you’re not wrong, but that’s not the whole story.

    Assume we have a common ancestor or group of ancestors (we are all human, I’d say that is not contentious). 1. Genetics as a driver of culture is usually irrelevant or trivial. 2. Circumstance gives rise to economic decisions and cultural practice. 3. This gives rise to epigenetics which can create traits. 4. Traits arise and others are reinforced. 5. Some of this expresses as cultural choices. 6. These traits are not permanent; they are largely epigenetic anyway and are not cultural; this becomes irrelevant given intermarriage or exposure to another culture. 7. Non-epigenetic cultural traits can disappear as soon as it takes time for people to mix socially with other groups (more advanced cultures). That means within hours sometimes to months (wearing clothes, learning language, trade, use of money). 8. Epigenetic traits can take more than a generation to go away but can be changed by the benefit of contact with a more advanced culture and more productive economy.

  95. A Lurker

    6. These traits are not permanent; they are largely epigenetic anyway and are not cultural; this becomes irrelevant given intermarriage or exposure to another culture. 7. Non-epigenetic cultural traits can disappear as soon as it takes time for people to mix socially with other groups (more advanced cultures). That means within hours sometimes to months (wearing clothes, learning language, trade, use of money). 8. Epigenetic traits can take more than a generation to go away but can be changed by the benefit of contact with a more advanced culture and more productive economy.

    The multicultural West is what happens when an advanced culture makes it advantageous for less-advanced cultures to not mix with the advanced culture, and to remain separate, not integrated, unassimilated and less-advanced, despite being wholly surrounded by the advanced culture.

    Which is why the West (including Australia) is currently plagued with FGM, honor-killings, veiled women, calls for sharia law, halal certification, violent gang attacks, Aboriginal settlements looking like disaster areas, women and children being raped and assaulted etc, violent ethnic enclaves and no-go zones.

    So, if you want open borders you need to not only dismantle the welfare state for immigrants and other blow-ins, but also dismantle multiculturalism and political correctness as well.

    Since I can’t see that happening in our lifetime, open borders should be off the table too.

  96. Thank you Sanjeev. A welcome contribution to the debate, although I don’t agree with everything you have put forward. However, I think that you are basically coming via the same thread of thinking as most people on this website.

    I am very glad you joined us in this country. You clearly share the values that formed our current society. Many new comers do not appear to.

  97. .

    That’s a pretty good post Lurker.

    [Sometimes I’m not sure what people mean by open borders though. The definition is not really standardised.]

  98. egg_

    Alcohol tolerance in different ethnic groups
    See also: Race and health and Genetic epidemiology
    To engage in alcohol consumption and development of alcoholism appear to be common to primates, and is not a specific human phenomenon.[9] Humans have access to alcohol on far greater quantity than non-human primates, and the availability increased particularly with the development of agriculture.[10] The tolerance to alcohol is not equally distributed throughout the world’s population.[11] Genetics of alcohol dehydrogenase indicate resistance has arisen independently in different cultures.[12] In North America, Native Americans have the highest probability of developing alcoholism compared to Europeans and Asians.[13][14][15][16] Different alcohol tolerance also exists within Asian groups, such as between Chinese and Koreans.[17] The health benefit of a modest alcohol consumption reported in people of European descent, appear not to exist among people of African descent.[18]

    Higher body masses and the prevalence of high levels of alcohol dehydrogenase in an individual increase alcohol tolerance, and both adult weight and enzymes vary with ethnicity.[19][20] Not all differences in tolerance can be traced to biochemistry however.[21] Differences in tolerance levels are also influenced by socio-economic and cultural difference including diet, average body weight and patterns of consumption.[22][23]

  99. .

    Very interesting egg.

    What about epigenetics? Europeans drank small beer/watered down wine to “purify” water supplies.

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