But what about the NBN?

Countries in the OECD – 36.

Countries in the UN – 193.

Australia’s relative average internet speed – 52.

Oh the pride.  Oh the joy.  Oh the cost.

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63 Responses to But what about the NBN?

  1. Mark A

    I can vouch for Hungary, unlimited download decent speed at less than $25 AUD/moth (including phone line with plenty of free calls)

  2. Amadeus

    I’m consistently getting between 36 & 38 mbps at Auchenflower in Brisbane via Telstra cable NOT via NBN service for $80 per month including land lines for our business. Am avoiding the NBN like the plague that it is.

    It needs to be noted that the countries with the fastest speeds, apart from Sweden and maybe Norway, aren’t exactly geographically large land areas. The cost of installing fast internet needs to be seen in perspective. However, NBN is, and was, from the outset, a galactically stupid idea from a galactically stupid group of politicians starting with the originators, Rudd and Conroy. What a tangled web they weaved.

  3. I’d love to see statistics on what people use their internet for and what proportions of the population they represent, so that we can determine what is the true maximum speeds needed to support the majority of users.

  4. Mark A

    bemused
    #2816142, posted on September 14, 2018 at 6:20 am

    I’d love to see statistics on what people use their internet for and what proportions of the population they represent, so that we can determine what is the true maximum speeds needed to support the majority of users.

    Don’t go there, it’s nasty.

    Those companies who needed fast internet, had it long before Conroy’s brain fart.

  5. Herodotus

    The revelations about top management at Google and the partisan behaviour and censorship imposed there and at twitter is a huge concern, speed not so much.
    Stop electing Labor and get more sense into the media if you want to avoid governmental mismanagement on a national scale. The NBN is an epic fail, but energy is still the big one.

  6. egg_

    the countries with the fastest speeds, apart from Sweden and maybe Norway, aren’t exactly geographically large land areas

    Exactly.
    Yet TheirQ&A was speaking of FTTH at properties outside of Tamworth FFS.

  7. Mark A

    egg_
    #2816147, posted on September 14, 2018 at 6:33 am

    the countries with the fastest speeds, apart from Sweden and maybe Norway, aren’t exactly geographically large land areas

    OK I take your point, but is Sydney or Melbourne considered a “large” land area?

    Forget about the unfairness of it all to the rest of OZ.

  8. jjf

    Government should not be in the telecoms space apart from regulating and ensuring competition.

    The performance of NBN proves that!!

    How crazy to sell Telstra an then start up Telstra II!!!!!!

  9. John Constantine

    Nbn cable installers will be watching 4f satellite TV in their motels and using 5g mobiles for work while still burning taxpayer billions on the white elephant.

    Comrades.

  10. egg_

    Sydney or Melbourne considered a “large” land area?

    We are mainly urbanised with sparse populations in vast areas in between – the worst model possible for an NBN.
    It’s OK for Tamworth to be fibred, but not the back of Whoop Whoop (hence, NBN satellites) but the Leftards on TheirQ&A want FTTH everywhere – because!

  11. JohnA

    jjf #2816150, posted on September 14, 2018, at 7:03 am

    Government should not be in the telecoms space apart from regulating and ensuring competition.

    The performance of NBN proves that!!

    How crazy to sell Telstra an then start up Telstra II!!!!!!

    You forget that the purpose was PMG II, not Telstra II.

  12. JohnA

    Mark A #2816148, posted on September 14, 2018, at 6:37 am

    egg_#2816147, posted on September 14, 2018 at 6:33 am

    the countries with the fastest speeds, apart from Sweden and maybe Norway, aren’t exactly geographically large land areas

    OK I take your point, but is Sydney or Melbourne considered a “large” land area?

    Forget about the unfairness of it all to the rest of OZ.

    Singapore is 721.5 sq km, readily ascertainable as it is a compact island for the most part.

    Melbourne & Sydney not so easy but for Melbourne this discussion is pertinent to yield approx 2000-2500 sq km.

    Huge difference, n’est pas?

  13. Rebel with cause

    5g will kill the need for cable internet for the vast majority of users. And mobile infrastructure is one area where Australia is ahead of the curve. Those $100 phone contracts have to be good for something.

  14. .

    Private enterprise was busy installing genuine 100 MB FTTH back in 2007…then the government killed them of off.

    5G will indeed make the NBN obsolete. C.L.’s “National Fax Network” was a damn good lampooning.

    The NBN will cost over 250 bn AUD and it will never be completed.

  15. mh

    Have you got a graph on taxpayer spend per country?

  16. Jonesy

    Hawke stuffed it. As an outsider, the transition from government Telecom to corporate Telstra had a service hive off, NDC. If the idiots were thinking…NDC should have become the owner of the network. ALl the hardware, the exchanges, the pits, the rims, the backbone….everything to do with the fixed line network. This company should have become a common data carrier. With fixed data rates, with profits churned back in to modernising and expanding the network. (Fat chance of keeping profits in a Hawke government) There would have only been competition at the retail level. The network would have been modernising since the mid 80s…lord knows how far a SINGLE hfc network would have penetrated without the competing waste of duplication.

    Hawke mandated only fax capability hence the reliance on twisted pair lines long into the new century. I am not a tech, my description may be overly simple but, looking at the histrionics, there had to be a better way.

  17. Forget about the unfairness of it all to the rest of OZ.

    We’re around 200 km from Melbourne in South Gippsland and even our ADSL2 wasn’t so bad, now the NBN is giving us between 20-40 download and between 5-8 upload depending on time of day. Unfortunately we’re still affected by co-existence (people refusing to sign up for the NBN), which means we can’t get the higher speeds consistently because the NBN won’t shut of the laggards.

    I wonder how many are affected by co-existence and could get better speeds if everyone signed up.

  18. 5g will kill the need for cable internet for the vast majority of users.

    Even in our neck of the woods many are going to mobile internet despite the fact that it’s only 3G in most areas. Our neighbour recently dumped his landline modem (still on ADSL) and went fully mobile internet and gets much the same speeds and at a lower cost (for what he needs to do).

    A lot of IT ‘experts’ are saying that 5G will never replace fibre, but they are usually the ones that play games online, spend all day downloading movies and want the fastest speeds on earth. For the vast majority of people, even now, 3G/4G is serving them quite adequately.

  19. Tel

    I wouldn’t trust those numbers… the 11Mbps would put Australia at ADSL speed while much better tests indicate typical 24Mbps on fixed lines (faster in some cities, and depending on carrier and many other factors).

    http://www.speedtest.net/reports/australia/

    The really interesting thing is that mobile downloads are typically 44Mbps in Australia so it’s already running approximately double the fixed lines. Then again, people usually do smaller data volume on mobile so it may not be a perfect comparison, but it’s clear where the technology investment has been going.

    Using the same site and clicking across to the Nordic countries, the fastest is Sweden at 70Mbps download speed on a fixed line, but is fast Internet a good lifestyle choice when you also have burning cars to go with it? I guess if you are afraid to go outside then you need fast Internet. The Nordic mobile speeds happen to be SLOWER than Australian mobile speeds, which I guess proves we go out a lot more than they do.

    … the countries with the fastest speeds, apart from Sweden and maybe Norway, aren’t exactly geographically large land areas

    Doesn’t that make it even more unforgivable that they have slow mobile?

  20. H B Bear

    One of the greatest mis-allocation of resources Australia will ever see. Thanks to one of the worst Australian governments you will ever see.

  21. Tel

    A lot of IT ‘experts’ are saying that 5G will never replace fibre, but they are usually the ones that play games online, spend all day downloading movies and want the fastest speeds on earth. For the vast majority of people, even now, 3G/4G is serving them quite adequately.

    It very much depends on data volume, rather than speed. There’s a little bit higher latency on mobile but if you are on a good carrier in a 4G area then you already are getting better speed than most fixed line installations. Fixed line is still cheaper for massive download data, like movies and stuff, so that price per gigabyte on mobile is the key pivot point. If you had a chart with a spread of all users and their average monthly usage then you can just look at the price per gigabyte on mobile and the standard monthly price of an NBN plan and trim off all the lite-data users who will never be interested in NBN. As that price per gigabyte comes down, the break point shifts up the chart.

    The really top users will buy an expensive custom fiber which won’t be NBN either, so the available customer base is steadily shrinking. Even worse is that the NBN is forced to make their service available to everyone despite not finding a high density of customers, the lines installed at huge cost will sit dark. I guess it will hit crunch time under PM Bill Shorten and they will really need to scrabble for excuses at that stage.

  22. Tel

    http://www.speedtest.net/awards/mobile/

    Telstra comes in as the fastest mobile network in the whole world 2018.

  23. Dr Faustus

    One of the greatest mis-allocation of resources Australia will ever see. Thanks to one of the worst Australian governments you will ever see.

    Faaark.
    Them there are ballsy statements on the eve of the Shorten/DiNatale Government.

  24. H B Bear

    Faustus – it takes real effort to evaporate tens of billions of dollars. The CFMMEU are really ticket clippers and extortionists. They can’t hit those sorts of numbers.

  25. John of Mel

    Telstra comes in as the fastest mobile network in the whole world 2018

    I don’t think that’s right.
    Canada’s TELUS has 57.99 points vs 47.27 for Telstra.
    Few other countries are in front as well – Iceland, Qatar, and Singapore.

  26. Fred

    I get NBN soon. Can’t wait.

    World of Warcraft and porn. What more could you want in life.

  27. Roberto

    I get NBN soon. Can’t wait.

    According to the NBN’s latest ‘estimate’ we won’t get it for at least another year. And since the estimate has changed about ten times, I doubt it’ll arrive even then.

  28. Fred

    According to the NBN’s latest ‘estimate’ we won’t get it for at least another year. And since the estimate has changed about ten times, I doubt it’ll arrive even then.

    I get it next month. I don’t want it. The monthly cost is the same, but I will have to pay an installation fee and take time off work to be present for the installation. But I’m told that my copper wire will be downgraded so my current internet won’t be as good.

    I’m happy with ADSL 2+. I don’t need super fast internet. I surf the net and watch netflix.

  29. Neil

    https://www.innovationaus.com/2018/06/NBN-financially-doomed-from-start

    NBN Co was doomed to be a “financial disaster” regardless of whether it used Labor’s all-fibre model or the current multi-technology mix, respected independent telecommunications analyst firm New Street Research has told a joint parliamentary committee.
    New Street’s respected senior analyst Ian Martin said taxpayers faced a bill for around $30 billion on write downs to the value of NBN Co under the MTM model and that the cost could have been as high as $60 billion under Labor’s all-fibre model

  30. Natwally

    I live south of Perth and recently moved house from Port Kennedy to Baldivis, one suburb across, to be closer to our kids school and their school mates. We went from an ADSL2 plan with 500GB per month that ran at a pedestrian 2-3Mbps to an FTTP NBN feed at our new place ($99pm NBN50 ‘unlimted’ package through Telstra) that usually runs in the mid 40Mbps. I have a very happy household who are now enjoying streamed Netflix, music and Foxtel. We have also made a saving on our monthly ITC service fees with the combined cost of new services being about $80 a month less that our previous package (Phone/internet/Foxtel HD).
    The difference between our service levels across the country are surely driving the low average. Over time the average will come up as more people are switched across to the NBN network (if they want to or not). I know it is at a huge cost to us as taxpayers but after handing over $100Kpa plus in tax for the last decade I feel like I am getting a little bit back on this one. (Rightly or wrongly!)

  31. .

    You will never see a positive ROI on this blunder.

  32. Confused Old Misfit

    I lived in a small town (2500) in Nova Scotia, Canada. FTTH +phone+basic TV. Offered by 3, count ’em one, two, three providers for $85-95CAN/mo. We were being ripped off price wise but the service was fast, same number (and quality) of FTA TV but really easy and cheap to move between packages for sparts, entertainment etc.

  33. .

    No no, that is terrible duplication, and therefore inefficient…

    The duplication argument for publicly owned natural monopolies is pretty damned stupid on the empirical evidence.

  34. Tator

    As a tech head I just love my FTTP NBN, get about 45mbs from a 50 pack from Optus. But I can see the economic case for the MTM and not having the NBN at all. Maybe the best idea would have been just to buy the exchanges and ULL conduits, strip out all the copper and allow telcos to install their own fibre if they wanted or their own wireless systems like Google Fibre did at a much lower unit cost than the NBN.
    Then public maintenance costs would be minimal in just maintaining the buildings and physical conduits whilst private enterprise maintains the fibre. The extra capacity in optic fibre over copper would mean the conduits would not get overloaded.

  35. Confused Old Misfit

    No no, that is terrible duplication, and therefore inefficient…

    Not at all inefficient. First to the area laid the fibre, second & third bought capacity. Lots of competition on the service package contents v price between the three.

  36. Neil

    How do they measure the speed? Is it what the technology is capable of giving or what people are actually getting? You can get 100Mbs with copper. But because of high CVC fees people are going for the more affordable slower speeds. They can get faster speeds for a higher cost but people are not doing that

  37. Diogenes

    You can get 100Mbs with copper.

    If you are within 100-200m of the “green box”. I am 385m meters away and the very best I can get in theory is 85Mbs, currently synching at @79 expecting to it to pop up to @83 when the exchange is switched off in 6 weeks and NBN can turn up the power. Actual speeds vary, but I am reasonably happy.

    At 4km for the green box you will only get dialup speeds

  38. Diogenes

    But I’m told that my copper wire will be downgraded so my current internet won’t be as good.

    With or without ?
    If you don’t switch, your copper wire will no longer be connected to ANY telephony network – so I suppose that will be true, zero is much much worse than you are getting today.

    With NBN, as the run of copper is shorter, unless your exchange is closer than your nearest “green box” your speed should improve – this is a characteristic of copper.

    As for the rest, look at changing provider. My cutover involved unnplugging my modem & phone when I went to work, a techie swapping 2 wires on the pillar (the cylindrical grey things on some corners) , and me plugging my new modem in when I got home, and plugging the phone into that. I paid no fee, except for buying the modem outright ($190) instead of being locked into a contract.

  39. Neil

    If you are within 100-200m of the “green box”. I am 385m meters away and the very best I can get in theory is 85Mb

    So that 11.69Mbps figure for Australia must mean the speeds people are willing to pay for rather than what they can get with the copper technology. I think the same thing may apply with fibre. If Telcos do not purchase enough bandwidth because of high CVC fees speeds will be slower

  40. Norman Church

    I am really thrilled that some suburban dwellers are content with the download speeds they are getting under an NBN on which taxpayers have spent tens of billions of dollars. Makes me feel all warm and goo-ey inside.

    The satellite based service offered by the NBN in rural and regional areas is rather different. In fact, it is crap. Quelle surprise.

    Call me a bluff old traditionalist but I thought that the whole point of government intervention was to step in and cover areas which there was a market failure.

  41. Louis Hissink

    Mine is ~7 and adequate for streaming iTunes and Telstra movies. Not so good downloading 33 Gb files via Dropbox (all geological/geophysical and docs etc). Faster copying to 64Gb USB stick and espress posting it.

  42. Louis Hissink

    Oh I am on adsl2 and not scheduled for NBN.

  43. John Brumble

    Norman, you seem to be defining market failure as “buyer doesn’t want to have to pay for the service provided”.

  44. Confused Old Misfit

    I’m in the same position as Norman Church. My complaint is the data cap the NBN puts on satellite connections.
    Max of 60 GB/month peak quota then your are throttled back to 128 kbps up/down UNLESS you do all your streaming u;/downloading between 1:00 AM and 7:00 Am. In which case you can have 190 GB of data at whatever speed the satellite is capable of at that moment.

  45. Norman Church

    John Brumble – #2816300, posted on September 14, 2018 at 11:32 am – Norman, you seem to be defining market failure as “buyer doesn’t want to have to pay for the service provided”.

    No I am not. Never been a fan of public monopolies. But if one is going to have one, the monopoly should at least operate in a way that delivers on the alleged social benefits.

    Those getting the benefit of a NBN cable service in the suburbs are also hardly paying a price that reflects the massive subsidy contributed by taxpayers.

    Indeed, there might be case for arguing that the NBN involves reverse subsidisation where taxpayers in rural in regional areas are cross-subsidising the services enjoyed by NBN customers in the major cities. However, I probably would not go that far without understanding the figures a bit better.

  46. Neil

    Those getting the benefit of a NBN cable service in the suburbs are also hardly paying a price that reflects the massive subsidy contributed by taxpayers.

    How much in taxpayer subsidies Is NBNCo getting? Rudd/Conroy put the NBN off-budget. I think NBNCo is getting most of its money by borrowing from banks like any company would. Plus they are now getting revenue from selling its product. That is one advantage of FTTN. It allows the NBN to be built much quicker meaning NBNCo started getting revenue sooner than if they had built an all fibre network

  47. Norman Church

    Neil- as you no doubt appreciate, it does not follow from the NBN being off-budget and having borrowed money from the private sector that the NBN has not received public funds for capital investment.

    If the NBN has, in fact, not received public funds then I stand corrected and will be a much happier man. Is that what you are suggesting and what do you base that suggestion upon?

  48. Neil

    I believe NBNCo has received public funds but I have no idea how much. Labor put NBNCo off-budget meaning it cannot be funded like roads and rail. It also has to make a profit and then Labor intended selling it when it was finished. I have no idea who would buy it.

    One possibility to make things better is to put NBNCo into the budget and fund it like roads, heath etc and add it to our national debt. NBNCo could then get rid of CVC fees.

  49. Forget about the unfairness of it all to the rest of OZ.

    Until the rest of Oz subsidises my bloody extortionate rent in the city they can shove unfairness up their arses.

  50. Diogenes

    So that 11.69Mbps figure for Australia must mean the speeds people are willing to pay for rather than what they can get with the copper technology. I think the same thing may apply with fibre. If Telcos do not purchase enough bandwidth because of high CVC fees speeds will be slower

    The 11Mbs is the average which includes the remaining ADSL.

    Consdier teh following from Wiki
    As of 2017, South Korea had the fastest average internet connection in the world at 28.6 Mbit/s, according to the report State of the Internet published by Akamai Technologies.[10] South Korea’s speed is four times faster than the world average of 7.0 Mbit/s.[11] It is important to note that 100 Mbit/s services are the average standard in urban South Korean homes and the country is rapidly rolling out 1Gbit/s connections or 1,024 Mbit/s, at $20 per month,[12] which is roughly 142 times as fast as the world average and 79 times as fast as the average speed in the United States. [13]

    It looks like SOUKS don’t want to pay for 100Mbs either

  51. Kneel

    The biggest waste in NBN terms was failing to take up Telstra’s offer of FTTN nation-wide for $30B. IIRC, KRudd called it “old tech”.
    We ended up with….FTTN, costing north of $60B. So there’s $30B we didn’t need to spend…

    As to data and usage…
    Previously in zone1 ADSL area. NBN node is < 100m away. NBN vDSL line synch at 120ish Mbps.
    I (had to) move from ADSL2+ at 18Mbps unlimited, so went to NBN50 at 50Mbps unlimited, same price.
    speedtest.net gives 47Mbps while simultaneously streaming SD content on the Roku.
    Was already on VoIP for phone, but added all local, standard national and australian mobile calls for $10/m.
    I use about 500G to 1TB a month, depending on how much content I stream or download.
    No gaming for me, so a nice QoSed network for good streaming is fine and I don't really care much about latency.

    For all you complainers, especially the ones holding UnZud up as an example, please remember that all these places with "super fast" internet connections FIRST DID FTTN, THEN CAME BACK AND DID FTTP.
    This is sensible – it improves performance for almost everyone, then the second round gives you even more bandwidth IF you need it, while only supplying it to those who want it enough to pay for it.

  52. Tel

    I don’t think that’s right.
    Canada’s TELUS has 57.99 points vs 47.27 for Telstra.
    Few other countries are in front as well – Iceland, Qatar, and Singapore.

    Oh you are right, they are sorted by country, I thought the best results were at the top.

    Anyhow Telstra is up there only beaten by a handful.

  53. Chris M

    I wouldn’t trust those numbers… the 11Mbps would put Australia at ADSL speed

    That’s exactly the max download speed I get on NBN – and the majority of other Australian NBN users also. Not sure why you doubt this number Tel. It’s not better than ADSL and probably less reliable.

  54. yarpos

    We dont have a universally fast Internet relative to many countries for the same reasons we dont have great roads. Small population/budget and a big geography.

    Its pointless comparing us to flyspeck countries like Singapore , South Korea, Scandi countries etc. If you want reality look at Canada, Russia, Brazil.

  55. Tel

    Not sure why you doubt this number Tel. It’s not better than ADSL and probably less reliable

    At the speedtest website linked above they have 3 and a half million users who have tested their network and the typical result came out a lot better than 11Mbps. That’s why I think the number is too low. If you want to check out the Singapore result, those numbers are up in the 100’s so I would say all the numbers on that Statistica page are too low. Speedtest is just a better designed test (better for endpoint speeds at any rate, the web servers that you access could quite likely be slower because they are in another country or they are just slow servers).

    http://www.speedtest.net/reports/singapore/

  56. Neil

    That’s exactly the max download speed I get on NBN

    Did the speed test and I got 42.8Mbps download and 16.4Mbps. Also for some reason I got FTTP. Not sure why but I think it was because i already had underground conduits to push the fibre through. No digging was required

    If you are getting 11 Mbps download it is most probably because your telco does not purchase enough bandwidth and/or you are not willing to pay more for higher speed plans

  57. Tel

    Did the speed test and I got 42.8Mbps download and 16.4Mbps.

    Yes, that’s a reasonably clip, you should be happy with that, I’m sure everything works nicely.

    Let me just point out (based on the same Speedtest report) that Telstra’s mobile network achieves typical speed of 44.20 Mbps download and 14.32 Mbps upload so that’s pretty much lineball with your NBN FTTP connection and they achieved that with current 4G mobile technology. We aren’t even getting into beam forming and 5G yet. Here’s the ABC explaining how 5G can’t beat the NBN but we need to tax mobile networks to pay for failed government projects:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-25/5g-vs-nbn-mobile-network-convenient-but-expensive-alternative/9083746

    Any what they don’t explain is that Telstra’s 4G is already beating NBN in the wild right now on a download speed basis, using real tests to demonstrate that.

  58. John Brumble

    TF you talking about Norman? Are you seriously suggesting that distributed populations paying the same as urban users are subsidisng infrastructure?

  59. Neil

    Yes, that’s a reasonably clip, you should be happy with that, I’m sure everything works nicely.

    Yes it does but it is most probably faster than what I need. But to show you how socialism works I did have a problem with NBNCo. I live in a townhouse complex of 10 townhouses. Plumbers working in No 7 courtyard cut through the NBN cables going to units 7,8,9 & 10. No 8 rang up to get all 4 cut cables repaired. NBNCo came out 2 weeks later and only fixed cable to No 8 townhouse. No 8 asked why not fix 7,8,9 & 10 at the same time. NBNCo replied that each townhouse had to ring their providers eg Telstra, Optus, TPG etc and they would then contact NBNCo and they would have to come out 4 times to fix the 4 cut cables

    NBNCo told me they would not get paid if they fixed all 4 cut cables at the same time. No 9 townhouse did not use the NBN so that cable could not be repaired because No 9 did not have a provider.

    Private enterprise would fix all cut cables at the same time

  60. Chris M

    Yep Tel, ran my NBN again on Speedtest – 11.13 down, 0.94 up.

    It’s the same as what most Australian residents get on NBN.

  61. .

    It’s slightly worse than what I used to get on ADSL2 – we’re going backwards!

  62. Amadeus

    RESULTS SETTINGS
    SHARE

    I need to correct my earlier data. I’ve done a fresh speediest using the Telstra Speedtest monitor and the following results have appeared. Looks like I’m doing better than the last time I tested about 8 weeks ago!!

    Speedtest Data:

    Result ID 7641398090
    PING ms 12
    DOWNLOAD Mbps
    57.48
    UPLOAD Mbps
    5.22

    Reliability is 99%.

    Im in Auchenflower, Brisbane AND NOT ON NBN despite getting heaps of junk mail from NBN to join.

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