David Leyonhjelm on live exports

Disgust is a powerful emotion but makes for a poor bedfellow when it comes to legislation.

The nation’s reaction to graphic footage of suffering during a shipment of live sheep to the Middle East earlier this year was understandably one of disgust; it was visceral and vocal.

And yet, while legislating to eradicate an entire industry to punish the deeds of one (now removed) miscreant might appease the outrage, it is hardly a formula for sound policy. It wouldn’t even improve the welfare of sheep.

Even if much of the opposition to live animal export is genuinely based on concerns for animal welfare, and not an attempt by animal rights zealots to impose their peculiar views on the rest of us, surely it is incumbent on protesters to ensure that a ban on live sheep exports would achieve better animal welfare outcomes.

It is hard to see how our Aussie sheep have special rights, separate and superior to their ovine comrades in say Sudan or Somalia. That’s relevant because the more sheep Australia exports, the less other countries will export.

It is a simple fact that Australian sheep are exported more humanely, with better animal welfare, than any other country. And because of our ESCAS (Exporter Supply Chain Assurance System), we don’t stop when they are offloaded. We actually tell our export customers how to look after the sheep, even when they’re no longer ours.

Australia is the only country in the world that actively works in overseas markets to improve animal welfare conditions. We are the only country that attempts to regulate livestock exports all the way from Australian farms to the feedlots and abattoirs overseas.

This comes at a cost. Millions of dollars in compulsory producer levies are used to fund training, education, research and development in animal welfare, both within Australia and in the countries that buy our livestock. And this costs us business too; some countries will not accept being told by us how to look after sheep which we do not own in their country. We could sell millions more sheep if we didn’t do that.

But such is Australia’s commitment to animal welfare in the live export industry. If we were to stop exporting live sheep, they would be replaced by livestock from other countries. As evidence, in 2007 Australia could not meet the Middle East’s demand for live animals due to drought, so animals were imported from Sudan, Somalia and Iran – countries that do not share Australia’s commitment to animal welfare.

Demands that the countries purchasing our sheep must convert to an exclusively pre-slaughtered boxed and chilled model show appalling arrogance, if not outright racism.

Such calls are essentially telling poor people in other countries how to live; to buy a refrigerator and purchase their meat already killed and packaged, just like us wealthy white folk do.

Even if they own refrigerators, the people in the countries that buy our sheep have their own culture which involves eating freshly killed sheep during religious festivals. Imagine if Australians were told by another country we shouldn’t eat ham at Christmas, and that they therefore wouldn’t sell us pigs.

Even if the markets for our sheep did start importing meat rather than live animals, odds are they wouldn’t buy it from Australia. We are a high cost source, and these markets need low cost meat.

Our livestock export industry not only provides affordable protein to some of the world’s poorest people; it also provides Australians with 13,000 jobs, including 11,000 in rural areas. In parts of Western Australia, the industry can form the entire backbone of a community.

I am a former veterinarian, which means I know a few things about animal welfare. This debate about live exports is not about animal welfare.

It’s about racists who want to tell brown people in other countries how to live.

It’s about arrogant people who assume people in other countries will obtain refrigerators and buy their meat already killed and packaged, just like they do.

It’s about cultural imperialists, who have no respect for cultures that involve eating freshly killed sheep during religious festivals, even if they own refrigerators.

If it was about animal welfare, we would be increasing our exports of live sheep.

David Leyonhjelm is a senator for the Liberal Democrats

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63 Responses to David Leyonhjelm on live exports

  1. RobK

    Thank you DL. Much Appreciated .

  2. John Constantine

    It is about the Australian left demanding the social license to impose sanctions upon those otherwise outside its control.

    Sanctions is the old label, social license is their new ABC approved, focus group tested New label.

  3. Jimf

    It says everything about the level of “debate” in Aust that this sort of reasoned common sense doesn’t stand a chance of cutting through the outrage machine. The screamers and whiners who take over policy issues in this country live in a bubble world. For DL to try an explain the broader unintended consequences of a ban means idiots have to listen without prejudice for 3 mins. No chance . Maybe the ABC needs to do a doco on Somalian ethical treatment of live trade.
    Oh, and as if any green stoolies give a fuck about ppl who work the land !

  4. None

    It’s about idiot fukwit women like Susan Ley and Sarah Henderson who are ready to destroy the livelihoods of farmers in other states so they can appease the fuckwit Greenies in their electorates – who will never vote for them anyway- because it’s easier then actually getting out there and dealing with real issues.
    Leyonjhelm could have really rammed it home but instead he loses it in the last couple of paragraphs with some fuckwitteey about brown people, religious festivals and cultural imperialism.

    We are f****** governed by clowns.

  5. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    The Middle Eastern markets have already declared that they aren’t interested in frozen meat, they’ll just buy live sheep from any of the thirty or so other countries happy to go on exporting live sheep.

  6. .

    Great article, Senator Lleyonhjelm.

    Leyonjhelm could have really rammed it home but instead he loses it in the last couple of paragraphs with some fuckwitteey about brown people, religious festivals and cultural imperialism.

    No, that’s precisely the point – the same people who support fair trade, Oxfam and other nonsense are the new imperialists.

  7. John Constantine

    https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20180829/pdf/43xsl5mnq0g7xz.pdf

    WLD wellard are going broke, having built and currently operating the worlds newest and best, highest animal welfare standard speciality live export ships. hard to compete against Wahhabi owned elcheapo death barges staffed by the poorest people from the poorest countries.

    The incoming shorten green looting and vengeance cartel will sanction them, regardless of quality of service,

    Having the Wahhabis and the chicoms buy the ships for cents in the dollar and then run them as funeral barges would be crap outcome, but that is the world where shortens vengeance takes us.

    Comrades.

  8. Rob MW

    Even if much of the opposition to live animal export is genuinely based on concerns for animal welfare, and not an attempt by animal rights zealots to impose their peculiar views on the rest of us, surely it is incumbent on protesters to ensure that a ban on live sheep exports would achieve better animal welfare outcomes.

    Lol. Well DL the humans would go that little bit hungrier and lacking in protein and the sheep will still get their heads cut off or, die of old age, or learn to sip latte in down town Double Bay. If only Veganistias stopped competing for the same food source as the sheep to world would be a much happier place, instead of the endless auditions for horror movies these paste faced tools keep banging on about.

  9. Tom

    Great article, Senator Lleyonhjelm.

    … the same people who support fair trade, Oxfam and other nonsense are the new imperialists.

    +100.

    It’s not the Greenfilth destroying the live export industry for their primitive emotional gratification, but the infantalist fuckwits inside the anti-commerce Lieboral party like Sarah Henderson (my local member in Corangamite) and Sussan Ley in the Riverina. Both should be ashamed of themselves. They have sold out their rural electorates.

  10. Procrustes

    Dot:
    “No, that’s precisely the point – the same people who support fair trade, Oxfam and other nonsense are the new imperialists.”

    Spot on. Intellectual consistency is not a strong suit for much of the left.

  11. None

    It’s not the Greenfilth destroying the live export industry for their primitive emotional gratification, but the infantalist fuckwits inside the anti-commerce Lieboral party like Sarah Henderson (my local member in Corangamite) and Sussan Ley in the Riverina. Both should be ashamed of themselves. They have sold out their rural electorates.

    exactly the two people I named and who are they kowtowing to? The green filth in their electorates. In fact these two little sheets even sponsored the bill that actually passed the senate. They should have been disendorsed and kicked out of the party not elevated into the ministry.

  12. Adelagado

    What a load of bullshit. Live export of any animals is cruelty – pure and simple. Its just pandering to barbaric scum. The idea that these arseholes can’t afford fridges is ridiculous. Its unbelievable that this crap could come from a vet.

  13. billie

    Totally agree with Adelagado. Sick of hearing about our wonderful animal welfare, about lack of protein for poor people, about lack of refrigeration and the like. Now DL is trying to introduce racism into the argument. (It’s about racists who want to tell brown people in other countries how to live.) What a terrible thing to say.
    Farm animals were never meant to travel on rolling ships in the most appalling conditions in killer heat. The gentle animals that survive this trip then are subjected to terrible ritual slaughter. There is no animal welfare considerations in these countries. There is evidence some are sold to individuals who bundle them in car boots, fatten then up and re sell for a profit. The end result is ritual slaughter without stunning.
    As a former vet you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Its shameful and cruel and there are a lot of people who want to see it stopped for this reason alone. Nothing to do with politics or racism which is a load of bullshit.

  14. Tom

    Oh dear. We’ve picked up a vegan toddler. LOL.

  15. Petros

    Refridgerated transport of meat costs more than that of live animals on the back of a truck. Care to dispute this?

  16. struth

    What’s cruel about an exotic overseas trip before you ” meat” your maker?
    But the bigger issue here of course being the insulated and ignorant left in this country who believe stopping business in Australia does anything but help that trade flourish elsewhere and usually done worse.
    It’s the same mentality with global warmening and coal use.

    Let’s face it.
    It’s just the left again, with their hatred of the west, closing down it’s industry to let non western countries take it over and do it worse.
    The end result here will be sheep from elsewhere being treated worse than ours are now.
    Do they care about that?

  17. John Constantine

    Their left are just driven to use sanctions to inflict enough economic damage on the old Australia they hate, thereby progressing eternal totalitarianism.

    Any excuse for any sanction that crushes any enemy.

    Comrades.

  18. Zulu Kilo Two Alpha

    Live exports of any animals is cruelty

    Which explains why the death rates of those exported animals, on the ship, over the past twenty years, is less then just putting them in a paddock, and letting them live their lives?

  19. John Constantine

    Careful Zulu, wastage was the weapon that the left used on greyhounds, wastage will be their next weapon attacking sheep graziers.

    Exclusion fencing against predators for a start.

    Birthing barns?.

    No more Death, an activist has screamed at me.

    Rebirthed sewerage plants supplying rations of medicated fungus and algae is our future.

    Comrades.

  20. Nighthawk the Elder

    …the same people who support fair trade, Oxfam and other nonsense are the new imperialists.

    Agreed and I’ll go one further. These are the new imperialists who also push the greenfilth’s Paris doctrine, which also includes agriculture. They’re not interested in refrigerated meat either for poor brown people, or even ourselves. They want us all to bow down to their vegan deity.

  21. John Constantine

    Backyard Halal slaughter for festivals, happening within miles of ABC offices, is something that will never be a “sources revealed to ABC” or a ” footage obtained by ABC” story.

    Sanctions against backyard halal slaughter only hurts allies of the ABC, not damaging ABC enemies, so it is not an easy storytelling.

  22. Rebel with cause

    It’s about destroying the economy by tweeting during the business hours of your secure government “job”.

  23. .

    Which explains why the death rates of those exported animals, on the ship, over the past twenty years, is less then just putting them in a paddock, and letting them live their lives?

    Wow.

    The public really needs to be informed about this.

  24. Bushkid

    This is still a vexed question. Obviously, there are different viewpoints on this, so rather than simply denigrating any POV that differs from the good Senators, why not look at the whole picture a bit more carefully instead.

    Any form of animal cruelty is not to be excused lightly. Live export, where the animals are cared for well in the transit, managed well at the other end, handled and slaughtered humanely is all well and good, to be applauded and aimed for. Live export is a mainstay of the livestock side of Australian agriculture, and needs to be maintained, therefore it needs to be well managed.

    Unfortunately, not all shipping is handled well; not all end-user management or slaughter is humane. Humane treatment of all animals is an indicator of a civilised society.

    In this, the 21st century, why are we pandering to 6th century barbaric religious ideals that demand ritual slaughter for religious festivals? If we really care about animal welfare, we do need to think carefully about this, and address it.

    A lack of refrigeration in destination countries is certainly a major drawback to Australian-processed and frozen shipped product, but it should not be the only consideration. A civilisation that lets its animals suffer unnecessarily, particularly for something as poorly justifiable as religious ritual, will have a tendency to let its people suffer also, particularly its poorer people.

    That the sheep, in the quoted instance of the above post, will alternatively be sourced from other, less humane countries, should not necessarily be our responsibility. We can only work in our own sphere of influence.

  25. Boambee John

    It’s about racists who want to tell brown people in other countries how to live.

    It’s about arrogant people who assume people in other countries will obtain refrigerators and buy their meat already killed and packaged, just like they do.

    It’s about cultural imperialists, who have no respect for cultures that involve eating freshly killed sheep during religious festivals, even if they own refrigerators.

    Indeed. The worst racists, cultural imperialists and general fascists are found in the so-called “progressive” left.

    Sinistra delenda est.

  26. Rossini

    None
    #2816735, posted on September 14, 2018 at 9:24 pm
    We are f****** governed by clowns.
    Couldn’t agree without adding a few more expletives!

  27. Rossini

    Adelagado
    #2816865, posted on September 15, 2018 at 1:14 am
    The idea that these arseholes can’t afford fridges is ridiculous.
    If “these arseholes” lived in Australia they couldn’t afford the electricity to operate the fridges let alone the
    meat.

  28. I have seen the aftermath of crashed road train full of cattle.
    Ugly.

    None, I repeat none of the cattle involved were provided with seat belts!

  29. Helen

    That the sheep, in the quoted instance of the above post, will alternatively be sourced from other, less humane countries, should not necessarily be our responsibility. We can only work in our own sphere of influence.

    Based on that logic, we should not be accepeting any refugees, or giving aid to people in other countries.

  30. H B Bear

    WLD wellard are going broke, having built and currently operating the worlds newest and best, highest animal welfare standard speciality live export ships. hard to compete against Wahhabi owned elcheapo death barges staffed by the poorest people from the poorest countries.

    Exactly. This has never been an industry problem. It is a muzzy run, re-purposed car carrier problem.

  31. Fang

    100% percent of the boat people would very happly take the return trip on one of our livestock shipping vessels! SHY, Would demand it!

  32. Boambee John

    Helen at 1029

    Based on that logic, we should not be accepeting any refugees, or giving aid to people in other countries.

    OK, you have convinced me.

  33. A lack of refrigeration in destination countries is certainly a major drawback to Australian-processed and frozen shipped product

    This argument is rapidly losing efficacy, since connection to the grid & subsequent access to refrigeration is continuing at an extraordinary pace in developing countries. The acceptance of refrigerated/boxed product is consequently likewise increasing. This argument (as with the religious prohibitions) is largely a matter of business decision by the receivers to be able to “value add” at the other end. We have fallen hook/line & sinker for it.

    NZ has discontinued their live sheep trade with no collapse of their market. It is only a matter of time before the packaged product becomes the norm.

    Re David’s elevation of his opinion as a (retired) vet – I can assure you that many practising veterinarians don’t agree with him.

  34. None

    Fuck off Vicky. Who the hell are you to tell people how they should consume their meat? Most of these people if they’re working only earn 1 or $2 a day I couldn’t afford meat that is fattened and slaughtered and packaged and transported from Australia with your fuckwitted industrial relations and your fuckwitted overblown wages and your fuckwitted cry baby blubbeeinh over sheep
    No doubt you are probably one of those fuckwitted women who also believe in killing your own children by abortion and topping off your grandma with euthanasia. Fuck off Vicky. Our farmers have every right to export their product and other countries have every right to buy live sheep and fatten them in their own stock yards with their own feed and slaughter them with their own methods to their own standards for their own local consumption. That is a business transaction between them and has nothing to do with fuckwits like you. If you don’t f****** well like that you can go to fucken well Saudi Arabia and have your little hissy fit. You have no right to demand people here lose their livelihoods because you’re a fuckwit and an imperialist fuckwit to boot. We’re sick and tired of you you fuckwitted cry baby women. Fuck off.

  35. .

    Re David’s elevation of his opinion as a (retired) vet – I can assure you that many practising veterinarians don’t agree with him.

    Name them.

  36. I don’t intend to name friends. However – this is the website of veterinarians who have felt sufficiently strongly about this issue to form a lobby group – Vets Against Live Export:

    http://www.vale.org.au

  37. Incidentally, shipping company Wellard and Jordan (who were, I believe, involved in live exports) has been using a W.A. abattoir to process lamb for air freighting chilled meat to the Middle East since 2014. It clearly is economically viable.

  38. .

    Vets Against Live Export

    “Smug vets who only do small animal surgery, and want to put rural vets out of work”

  39. John Constantine

    WNR wingara ag have expanded into a cold store export facility to service their hay clients with meat as well.

    https://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20180301/pdf/43s2ts74gnwhcj.pdf

    It will be interesting to see how this business proceeds.

  40. John Constantine

    The sheepflock size in Australia is dropping in the dry season, all sorts of predictions are floating about.

    Low lambing percentages in eastern australia are mentioned, but exact percentages uncertain.

    No sheep leaving eastern Australia for the good season in western Australia, so this shows the market is soaking up the increased supply.

    If the eastern states flock drops below a critical mass [ and nobody puts a figure on it] the live export becomes a totally west Australian thing, if east coast drops too low, then slaughter sheep from the west will come east.

    Not just the flock dropping but operations walking away from livestock to go all cropping.

    Low numbers may become the new normal.

    Cattle are different and when it comes to cows, I am Jon Snow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkyy57iMaB0

  41. None

    Too f****** bad Vicky. How people run their business and what contracts they sign with a client is their business. Go f*** off bark at your vet friends about how they should run their business. Go on. F*** off then. I would gladly offer to come tell you how to run your bloody business but I am pretty certain you’re either a f****** public servant or unemployed, generally just a leech who’s never been responsible the feeding herself but hey, now you going to tell the rest of the world how to make a living. Because you cry over sheep. No doubt you didn’t even shed a tear when you were aborted your own children. Fuck off.

  42. None

    Any other fuckwit like Vicky who wants to moan about sheep can go start their own business growing sheep and selling dead meat to the Middle East, and keep their f****** noses out of other people’s business. Go f****** shout your abortions somewhere else, Vicky.

  43. Boambee John

    Don’t hold back None, tell us what you really think.

  44. If the eastern states flock drops below a critical mass [ and nobody puts a figure on it] the live export becomes a totally west Australian thing, if east coast drops too low, then slaughter sheep from the west will come east.

    That is interesting, JC. Certainly, some poor condition stock being bought up by southern farmers cheaply – but unsure if any going to WA.

    As for cropping, it differs with areas. Friends in the NSW Central West/Upper Hunter have been advised by agronomist to ditch cropping (they graze & crop) in favour of grazing due to past seasons. But, of course, in WA & some parts of SA bountiful rain has meant fantastic crops.

  45. None

    Indeed Boambee. I have no time for interfering cows like Vicky.

  46. None

    Unnamed friends and unnamed agronomist by unnamed troll yeah yeah.

  47. Mark A

    Bushkid
    #2816958, posted on September 15, 2018 at 9:29 am

    In this, the 21st century, why are we pandering to 6th century barbaric religious ideals that demand ritual slaughter for religious festivals? If we really care about animal welfare, we do need to think carefully about this, and address it.

    And after careful consideration; do what?

    Islam and its customs has been around for 1400 years and very much stayed the same, unchanged.
    It is not as if they weren’t exposed to western civilisations, they were and are and they take good advantage of it too. They take what suit them and ignore the rest.

    And we accommodate them in this like would nobody else, we bend over backward in any other respect just not to upset them, so why not in this?

    Look around you, muslims are far more represented in politics and public life than any other so called minority. Far in excess of their numbers / population.

    Us jumping up and down is not going to change anything, they simply import their live sheep from someplace else.

    Practically there is only 3 things we can do,
    carry on as before, stop supplying livestock or build transport ships to our high standard and engage only those for transport.

    Believe me nobody else will build those ships to the standard required by the objectors.

  48. .

    Believe me nobody else will build those ships to the standard required by the objectors.

    This is why we should never pander to them in the first place.

  49. Mark A

    Boambee John
    #2817330, posted on September 15, 2018 at 7:16 pm

    Don’t hold back None, tell us what you really think.

    Nah, she won’t do that, she is far too ladylike and polite, A shy retiring type even.

  50. None

    ***flutters eyes***
    By the way thanks Boambee, Mark A and all the other wonderful men here on Catallaxy who aren’t precious limp-wristed minions who faint when they hear a strong word. Nor foolish enough to be sucked in by flattery.

  51. None

    And we accommodate them in this like would nobody else, we bend over backward in any other respect just not to upset them, so why not in this?

    we don’t bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims as far as I live sheep trade is concerned. No we panda to the and factors like Vicky who cry over a sheep. No other country takes responsibility for their live exports even after they have been sold and where the commercial responsibility has passed on to somebody else outside of the country like we do. We do all that because of fuckwits like Vicky. I’m all for humane transport and I may not like Islam that I’m not a fan of billions of starving Muslims – recall the impact of The fuk Wit labour ban on cattle exports in Indonesia – but I’m dead set against fuckwits like Vicky demanding that we shut down an entire industry and deny people their livelihoods because some other fuckwit put too many sheep in a boat in summer and suffocated some of them. Only fuckwits like Vicky the leaving collective punishment and no doubt fuckwits like Vicky have no skin in the game. I’m pretty sure however that fuckwits like Vicky would be very upset if someone just confiscated her house and her livelihood overnight.

  52. None

    By the way did we ever find out what that other fuckwit Sarah Hanson-Young did with that $60,000 or so she raised to sue David? She withdrew her claim against David. What did she do with the money, the f****** fraud?

  53. Rob MW

    As for cropping, it differs with areas. Friends in the NSW Central West/Upper Hunter have been advised by agronomist to ditch cropping……

    So the agronomist is thinking of joining the unemployment line eh ?

    Best you stick with what you do know, heaven forbid that a plant & soil specialist gets involved with bottom line livestock accounting. My experience of 40 yrs and still going (just), cropping is extremely more efficient at producing both food (grain) & fibre (cotton) per hectare than livestock production. Cost of production per hectare on the other hand favors livestock production, but only just.

  54. Mark A

    None
    #2817394, posted on September 15, 2018 at 10:37 pm
    we don’t bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims as far as I live sheep trade is concerned.

    It was rhetorical question, quasi sarcastic on my part, meaning ‘we give in on everything else already why not on this as well’.

    As far as I’m concerned we should treat them the same way as any other creed, no exceptions o allowances.

  55. I don’t intend to name friends. However – this is the website of veterinarians who have felt sufficiently strongly about this issue to form a lobby group – Vets Against Live Export:

    I’ll bet not one of them has a practice that is west of Strathfield.

  56. None

    Mark -yes. And I was probably just emphasising that the real culprits here ate fuckwit retard Greenies and vegans an animal junkies like Vicki. The only correct response to fuckwit fascists like Vicki is to mock the stupid.

  57. None

    I’ll bet not one of them has a practice that is west of Strathfield.

    indeed. I’ll bet their entire practice also consists entirely of euthanizing children’s pets.

  58. John Constantine

    If live exporting sheep to be slaughtered as street theatre in the festival of tortured death overseas deserves sanctions:

    Importing the same festival to Australia is something we never talk about.

    Currently the frenzied stabbing death of animals lashed down with wire is a quaint undercover backyard ritual, confined within the settlements, and the main once a year shocking pack theatre pile on stabbing is one day out of 365.

    Backyard halal is gruesome and unhygienic and maybe compulsory individual electronic sheep eartags and council drone flyover inspections will reveal the secrets.

    Once compulsory paperwork and sheepbuyer registration came in, that stopped people going to the saleyards and buying a couple of sheep to tie up and throw in the boot of their car to kill in their backyard.

    Go to youtube and search for Eid festival sacrifice if you haven’t seen it, I won’t link.

    It is strange when Australia will not send animals to be slaughtered at the festivals overseas, but every year turns a blind eye to the slaughter festivals growing within Australian cities.

    All part of the price of decolonialisation, Comrades.

  59. I am bespoke

    What do you think monty?

    (CNN)Federal prosecutors in New York are weighing criminal charges against former Obama White House counsel Greg Craig as part of an investigation into whether he failed to register as a foreign agent in a probe that is linked to former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, according to sources familiar with the matter.

  60. max

    Lew Rockwell :

    Why Don’t Animals Join the Animal Rights Movement?
    What I want to know is why, if animals have the right to life, animal activists aren’t out making citizens arrests of natural predators?
    Why aren’t they interposing themselves between, say, a Kodiak bear and a salmon?
    For some reason, intra-animal eating doesn’t bother them. Only we aren’t allowed to eat fish or meat.

    Murray N. Rothbard:
    “animals, after all, don’t respect the “rights” of other animals; it is the condition of the world, and of all natural species, that they live by eating other species. Inter-species survival is a matter of tooth and claw.
    It would surely be absurd to say that the wolf is “evil” because he exists by devouring and “aggressing against” lambs, chickens, etc. The wolf is not an evil being who “aggresses against” other species; he is simply following the natural law of his own survival. Similarly for man.”

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