Monday Forum: December 3, 2018

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1,078 Responses to Monday Forum: December 3, 2018

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  1. .

    “Too bad you lost your factory job, Jim. Maybe you should learn coding

    Sensible advice.

    or start an eco tourism business?”

    The only money in that is for the QANGOs that dole out grants for infrastructure that no one wants to use.

  2. .

    Burden and incidence, people. It doesn’t matter so much who writes the cheque, but whose consumption or investment patterns differ with a change in taxes.

  3. mh

    JC,
    The consumer may end up paying a higher price, choose not to purchase, look for an alternative while purchasing the higher cost product, or someone along the supply chain wears the cost, and I’m sure there are other variations. Small businesses often just have to find ways to wear the added costs that government imposes.

    If you were looking at a consumer of steel, then it is easy to see the consumer as the importer as you are suggesting. If you were looking at a consumer of products in a Walmart store then it’s not so clear.

  4. struth

    This is the problem Struth.
    If that is true when he fails it is all over.
    He is not all we have.
    He isn’t even the main thing we have.

    .

    Failing to support him now makes the job harder later.

    You are supposed to jump onto a bandwagon, or if able, help push it, not sit back and criticize it when you see it.
    Classic scared conservative behaviour.

    Look at the brainwashing that you are talking about.
    Look at poor Monty and Harken.
    These people would believe the world was flat if it was told to them by somebody funded by government.
    They’d also believe that to cure world flatness we must immediately transfer our wealth to socialists.
    Why, because of the likes of Gutterres and his cronies.
    Aren’t you happy Trump is exposing the UN to the masses.
    Outsiders taking up the fight and more of the general population now jumping on the Trump wagon……
    To quote sherriff Beaufort T Justice…………………..what we have here is just pure old fashioned communism…………………and the whole world is waking up to it.

  5. JC

    Artie and Death.

    Most certainly not all, but MOST jobs have disappeared in those sectors because of automation – not just imports.

    eg.

    Back in 1967, the US steel industry employed about 780,000 workers, and produced about 115 million tons of steel. By 2015, employment had fallen to 90,000, producing about 79 million tons of steel. In both years the US consumed about 130 million tons of steel. (I’m not sure these figures are exactly right, but I think they are close enough.)

    The bottom line is that even if we still produced 115 million tons, or even upped it to 130 million, the level of employment in steel would be in the 120,000 to 150,000 range. The vast majority of those 780,000 steel jobs were lost to automation, and they aren’t coming back.

    Eventually imports will also be reduced, but not because of tariffs. It will occur because of even automation.

    And by the way, despite the recent US tariffs on Chinese goods, the bilateral trade deficit has increased recently. So there.

  6. .

    To quote sherriff Beaufort T Justice

    What we’re dealing with here is a complete lack of respect for the law.

    Maybe we’ve found our new Royal Commissioner to investigate VICPOL?

  7. struth

    The cheapest item you can buy is usually hot.
    A stolen Item should not be purchased.
    China produces cheaply because of corruption, the west being shackled by it’s allies in the UN.
    Integrity must be considered over short term cost for longer term prosperity.
    You shouldn’t be doing business with crooks.
    It may be great at the start, and the cheapest option for American consumers in the short term, but in the long term it’s a recipe for disaster.

  8. Muzzlehatch

    JFG on the James Field trial.

    This began a few days ago. It will be interesting to see how the Lugenpresse tie up the loose ends on this one and warn the lower classes continue to know thier place.

    Same as in Eastern bloc uprisings and now in France. You can only crush the organisers for so long until all the proles swarm out without goading. Next time the Epsilon Minuses leave the dormitories to express thier anger there will be no Mike Enoch organising it.

  9. JC

    Struth

    The Chinese do not produce Iphones because of corruption. They produce them because they are the cheapest/most efficient producers in the world for that sort of thing. Apple would be a very demanding client.

    There’s no recipe for disaster in terms of buying a 20 buck drill at Bunnings. Please. It’s a consumer boon adding purchasing power.

  10. struth

    the west being shackled by CHINA’S allies in the UN.

  11. struth

    They produce them because they are the cheapest/most efficient producers in the world for that sort of thing.

    My point is to ask yourself why that is the case.

  12. .

    struth
    #2879003, posted on December 5, 2018 at 11:05 am

    The cheapest item you can buy is usually hot.

    If it is legal in the first instance.

    A stolen Item should not be purchased.

    China isn’t stealing from anyone by manufacturing cheap shit. As long as it isn’t fake brand name stuff or doesn’t involve IP theft, suck it up. We made a choice to vote in successive governments to destroy our manufacturing base with the RET and carbon taxes. We’re dumb enough to agree to a bad deal.

    China isn’t stealing anything. We’re too proud to haggle and say no to deindustrialisation. Virtue signalling is a luxury good for us.

  13. JC

    In any event I’m quite hopeful US/Chinese talks will make a breakthrough over the course of next year. 0 Tariffs could be the result.

  14. Death Giraffe

    If automation was the only story, then there would be zero reason to move manufacturing to third countries with more corruption, less infrastructure, lower standards of education, lower wages and then import the products back to the US.
    So both cases are over simplifications: it isn’t tariffs and it isn’t automation.
    We have had high levels of automation for decades.
    Before computers, automatic lathes and mills like the Warner Swaseys existed in the forties and fifties. They produced long runs of components almost as quick as CNCs.
    Efficiencies are not as dependant on new tach as you are claiming.
    I bet far more of over-staffing is due to unions.

  15. JC

    My point is to ask yourself why that is the case.

    Why should I care.? Apple’s name is on the brand and I have expectations Apple will offer me a decent product with the requisite warranties.

  16. C.L.

    I watched President Donald Trump’s visit to the Capitol Building to pay respect to George H W Bush.

    Before he departed he saluted the coffin.

    And he looked ridiculous doing so.
    While there are a (very) few precedents before his era, it was Ronald Reagan who started the nonsense of Presidents saluting.

  17. JC

    Death

    Automation is not the only story, but it’s the biggest in terms of manufacturing by far.

    Before computers, automatic lathes and mills like the Warner Swaseys existed in the forties and fifties.

    Oh yea, the golden era of Australian manufacturing… hiding behind both quotas and tariffs. The era when you had to apply for RBA approval to buy foreign currency in order to go overseas.

  18. Confused Old Misfit

    He is not all we have.
    He isn’t even the main thing we have.

    Then what is the rest of “what we have”
    and
    What is the “main thing we have”?

  19. struth

    A little while ago it was the Japanese who were the cheapest at that “sort of thing”.

    Does not having crippling power costs come into it?

    How many people does a country actually need to produce an iphone, especially with modern robotics these days.
    Is it China’s great population that enables it?

    Are one hundred peasants working for peanuts really as efficient as the west and it’s technologies, if unshackled?
    When the west was unshackled, the Chinese didn’t stand a chance and lived in poverty.
    The Chinese have changed and become more outward looking and a trading nation so we hear.
    So we accept this.
    Their still as communist and corrupt as ever, and now increasingly so.
    Their tentacles stretch unfairly via every captured institution in the world.

    We just don’t know if a China playing on a level playing field would really be the cheapest, until we make them play on it.
    That’s my point.
    Not just to accept the status quo, that they have the UN and western governments in their pockets, so we can’t compete, and to fix this and see what the true costs of Iphones, (and quality) might actually be.

  20. John Constantine

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fJIdMG-2WQ

    Sheriff Buford T Justice.

    What we are dealing with……………………..

  21. JC

    You guys ought to realize you’re peddling bullshit that verges on green lunacy – fair trade and “ethical” investing. that’s where some of you are heading.

    Never ever go green lunacy because at the end of the day you’ll end up believing AA battery packs will provide cheap and abundant energy like that moron, Harksie.

  22. C.L.

    The trouble with the Dawson arrest (which is a direct corollary of the podcast) is it is utterly impossible for him to get a fair trial.

  23. Roger

    The western world is in this mess because right of centre parties can’t see humans as anything other than economic units.

    Astute observation, I.T..

    Conservatism is the attempt to curb the most deleterious effects of liberalism upon Western culture, chief among which are the reduction of the human being to a mere economic unit and the elevation of the corporation to god-like status.

    To borrow from someone somewhere, man was not made for the economy, the economy was made for man.

  24. JC

    Struth

    I don’t give a shit and neither should you if it’s the Japs , Chinese or fucking Martians producing what I want at a decent price.

  25. notafan

    I little birdie tells me the retrial of the first trial of a certain Cardinal is due to finish this Friday.

    Prayers were requested.

  26. JC

    Astute observation, I.T..

    Conservatism is the attempt to curb the most deleterious effects of liberalism upon Western culture, chief among which are the reduction of the human being to a mere economic unit and the elevation of the corporation to god-like status.

    To borrow from someone somewhere, man was not made for the economy, the economy was made for man.

    Yup, exactly as von Mises says in his Opus, Human Action, which is why he strongly suggested small government and very light intervention. The full circle.

  27. Death Giraffe

    Before computers, automatic lathes and mills like the Warner Swaseys existed in the forties and fifties.
    Oh yea, the golden era of Australian manufacturing… hiding behind both quotas and tariffs. The era when you had to apply for RBA approval to buy foreign currency in order to go overseas.

    ..
    Warner Swasey was a US firm.
    We were talking Trump.

    Automation is not the only story, but it’s the biggest in terms of manufacturing by far.

    ..
    I believe you are wrong. Unions were the major brake on efficiency.
    Unions are why manufacturing was offshored.
    Our cowardly moguls would not take them on, indeed were in bed with them.
    Then made bullshit excuses about competitive advantages as if the lack of competitive advantage wasn’t mam made.

  28. struth

    China isn’t stealing from anyone by manufacturing cheap shit.

    I’ll start up a transport company dot, and you can too.
    However I’ll make sure, via corruption, that you can only use horse and cart , while I’ll use B-doubles.
    I’ll then get my mates to up the price of stock feed.
    I’ll be able to transport far cheaper than you, yet if you were allowed to compete against me fairly, you may actually prove to be more efficient and beat me on price and service.
    But you think we should accept the first situation.
    This is the point I make.
    I use “stolen items” as a metaphor for this sort of activity.
    In the long run, it’s not the cheapest option by far, and until we get real competition allowed, you’ll just have to accept my transport prices which you correctly state, are the cheapest around, and we’ll all never know what prices might actually have been with real competition allowed.

  29. John Constantine

    Chicom centrally planned slave labour gulagfactories using stolen intellectual property, operating at the whim of a Despotic Tyrant and his peoples liberation army.

    This is the system that australias just in time supply chain is utterly at the mercy of.

    “Hey, if we take these bribes from the Tyrant for life of all the chicoms, we will become richer, faster.

    What could possibly go wrong with the chicom peoples liberation army supplying, owning and mantaining all of australias street security cameras?. They are cheap, after all.

    [ actually the entire australian economy exists at the whim of the Tyrant, from apartment dogboxes, the short staple wool, to feed barley to foreign students to fuel imports, one stroke of the pen and all or some of these stops overnight.]

    Give the Tyrant a wave when you walk past one of his cameras today, the artificial facial recognition tech is going to log you anyway.

  30. Death Giraffe

    Then what is the rest of “what we have”
    and
    What is the “main thing we have”?

    ..
    That enough of us remain alive who remember democratic principles, individualism, Christianity and the way it is supposed to be.
    But time is running out to pass it on, and there are entrenched enemies constantly spouting the opposite.

  31. JC

    Fellas, never go green retard, like Harksie.

  32. C.L.

    Trying to work out which words the world’s most stupid filter is banning.

  33. struth

    I don’t give a shit and neither should you if it’s the Japs , Chinese or fucking Martians producing what I want at a decent price.

    This is where we differ.
    Of course I am a conservative more than an at all costs libertarian.

    I very much give a shit how it is done and who benefits.
    Long term, I see it as very important.
    Maybe if more thought like me we wouldn’t have a communist totalitarian regime with such foul influence over the world, not allowing free and fair trade.
    Empowering communism by buying their shit because it’s cheap, due to their tentacles world wide, that have shackled competition that may have been able to produce more cheaply is a disaster long term for the free world.

  34. areff

    Maybe we’ve found our new Royal Commissioner to investigate VICPOL?

    Bill Bratton, who cleaned up the NYPD before falling out with Giuliani, would be the perfect choice.

    Of course we’ll have a Labor judge with narrow terms when the RC should be into policing in Victoria as a whole, not just into the astonishing effrontery of recruiting a defence lawyer as a snith. A full and worthwhile RC would include these areas:

    The doctoring of crime stats (“African gangs? What African gangs!”)

    The task forceset up to nail a certain prince of the church before a single complaint had been lodged.

    Leaks against that certain prelate

    Charging promoters for protection against feral mobs.

    VicPol’s slide from protectors of life and property to revenue agents

    Political influence on policing priorities, exemplified by Andrews’ ex-COS, who now serves that same function for Ashton.

    Policing HAS to be arms’ length from government and politics. In Victoria it isn’t and hasn’t been for quite some time.

  35. Death Giraffe

    What are the limits on free trade JC?
    Hypothetically, if I kept a family of slaves in my basement making really cool watches at the best price, when would it no longer be OK for you to buy them?
    If I kept them well fed and happy?
    If I mistreated them?
    If I systematically worked them to death and bought cheap replacements?
    If I systematically worked them to death while financing a death machine to come to your place and wipe you out?

  36. .

    However I’ll make sure, via corruption, that you can only use horse and cart , while I’ll use B-doubles.
    I’ll then get my mates to up the price of stock feed.

    The Chinese aren’t doing this or any kind of parallel to this. We’re voluntarily encumbering ourselves and agreeing to them being less restricted. It is virtue signalling and those cheering for it the loudest presume it is costless. Ultimately, even the Chinese are worse off with a lack of competition (and lower scale economies in production).

  37. .

    Death Giraffe
    #2879049, posted on December 5, 2018 at 11:38 am

    What are the limits on free trade JC?
    Hypothetically, if I kept a family of slaves in my basement making really cool watches at the best price, when would it no longer be OK for you to buy them?

    But that’s not free trade. I have similar reservations about the Chinese myself.

  38. struth

    The Chinese aren’t doing this or any kind of parallel to this. We’re voluntarily encumbering ourselves and agreeing to them being less restricted. It is virtue signalling and those cheering for it the loudest presume it is costless. Ultimately, even the Chinese are worse off with a lack of competition (and lower scale economies in production).

    The Chinese are socialist/communist.
    The socialists and communists in Australia from Unions to pollies and bureaucrats (chinese tentacles)
    There are no libertarians or conservatives over in Poland as we speak, signing our wealth and ability to compete, away.
    Their Dastyari Tentacles are far and wide.
    Please don’t use the term “we”
    We are not agreeing to it as a nation, not being asked to vote on it.
    As I said, Communist China has it’s tentacles spread wide, and acting completely undemocratically in China’s favour.

  39. John Constantine

    I would be happier if all of the inputs the just in time supply chain deliver to be used to sow and fertilise and control insects and control weeds and control diseases for the growing of crops in australia didn’t completely depend on the Tyrant of all the chicoms not feeling like teaching australia a lesson one day.

    “Sorry, we were unavoidably delayed in making that last shipment of time critical crop inputs, so sorry your crop died, we all respect each other a bit more today, hmmmmmm?.”

    We will just buy the barley from the fields our billionaire developers have cleared of nomads in central asia, you can store yours until we decide we need it.

  40. thefrollickingmole

    The Communist partys rule in China is underwritten by only one thing.
    Are they improving the lives of most of their citizens.

    They saw the Soviet example where they made economics secondary to repression and how that failed.

    Thats our only insurance against the “bully boy” tactics they can use to screw us around, it will hurt their own legitimacy if living standards fall.
    They still have repression and now big data to fall back on for those people silly enough to stick their heads up though.

  41. .

    The task force set up to nail a certain prince of the church before a single complaint had been lodged.

    Wow.

    Just wow.

    The Chinese are ruled by more ethical authoritarians than we have.

    At least the Chinese are overt in what they do, they are also brutal towards corrupt behaviour.

  42. struth

    The Chinese aren’t doing this or any kind of parallel to this.

    I have one word for you.

    Coal.

  43. JC

    Struth

    Our wealth?

    You no claim on my wealth and neither do I on yours.

  44. Death Giraffe

    Aren’t you happy Trump is exposing the UN to the masses.

    ..
    It is tempered by my knowledge that he is a one term president and of what will come after.

  45. candy

    I thought Donald Trump saluting George Bush’s coffin was appropriate. The Bush family would appreciate it, is all that matters.

    Anyway, there has to be some gesture at a coffin, not just standing there. An actual physical gesture to finalise paying the respects. Melania Trump put hand on heart, as well. I thought it simple and appropriately done.

  46. struth

    You no claim on my wealth and neither do I on yours.

    You’d be seriously depressed if you had a claim on my wealth.

    Anyone wanna buy a T6oo Kenworth?

  47. struth

    It is tempered by my knowledge that he is a one term president and of what will come after.

    Have you recently stopped drinking, or gone on some pointless exercise regime?
    Health and sobriety can cause severe depression.

  48. struth

    You no claim on my wealth and neither do I on yours

    You’re not from the government, I take it.

    The wealth of a nation, a culture, a civilisation……………………….the west, is my “our”

  49. Armadillo:

    If you are going to riot, storming the Bastille whilst using the “Arc de Triomphe” as a diversion would have sent a stronger message.

    There would need to be someone in the Bastille whose arrest would be worth rioting over.
    Any suggestions?

  50. Armadillo;

    Except if your name is Winston (spit) Smith apparently. Bloody favouritism. I wouldn’t be surprised if he designed and has operational control of the spaminator.

    How did you guess that?
    Here’s a bauble thrown in your direction – put an acute over an offending vowel, and when everyone is doing it, then I shall strike.
    53 times.

  51. jupes

    The Chinese are ruled by more ethical authoritarians than we have.

    Correct. They are one of the very few nations on earth dealing with their Muslim population appropriately.

  52. FMD, an (tautology alert) anti-semitic lefty has been fired from Usyd!

    A lifetime radical, Dr Anderson was convicted but later acquitted of the 1978 Hilton Hotel bombing in Sydney.

    So a State institution hired a terrorist to indoctrinate kids and has only just got around to getting rid of him because he is becoming too embarrassing.

    Dr Anderson attracted criticism from federal education ministers for his numerous trips to Syria and North Korea, where he expressed solidarity with their dictatorial regimes and condemned western imperialism and the United States.

    So, to repeat, the State, instead of stripping a domestic terrorist of the citizenship of the country he hates and sending him to North Korea, gives him a highly paid taxpayer funded gig at a top University.

    Of course the fuckstick is screaming about free speech now. And, lest you need reminding, Usyd routinely charges, censors or simply shuts down speakers promoting liberty and free markets, refused the Ramsey Western Heritage Centre and hosts an annual conference on Socialism.

    Lastly, if this were a lecturer “of the right” displaying a Swastika and defending people wearing ‘Death to Israel’ badges, the screams of “NAAAAAZI!” would be heard on the secret Nazi moon base. Yet, because the wanker is a lefty there isn’t so much as squeak.

    Which just goes to show that anti-semitism is so rife on the left that nobody even bothers calling it out.

  53. Elle

    I thought Donald Trump saluting George Bush’s coffin was appropriate. The Bush family would appreciate it, is all that matters.

    The image of the President of the United States, with the First Lady beside him, at the coffin of GB brought tears to my eyes. A very powerful moment.

  54. struth

    They still have repression and now big data to fall back on for those people silly enough to stick their heads up though.

    FMD, they’ve got a behavioural point system in place.
    Say something bad about the government, travel is limited etc.

    Their living standards are raised due to the corruption shackling the west, while they are still a totalitarian regime………………..

    I think China will eventually fall because of this.
    However, we all on this blog, unfortunately won’t probably live to see it, and are now living in countries repressed and depressed, through socialism undemocratically forced upon us, our traitorous elite folding to it, our own socialist bureaucracy making us live lives right now, more poverty stricken than any of us have to, sorry, but making a cheaper I phone in no way a compensation.
    It actually, because of socialism, is more expensive because we are shackled and poorer.

  55. struth

    Good conversation.
    Must go.
    Have a great day, all.

  56. Automation

    I have assisted companies in automating various things.

    AU: “Oh great we can automate that and fire a few people.”
    Asian competitor: “Oh great we can automate that, reduce our costs and make a lot more product .”

  57. areff #2879048, posted on December 5, 2018 at 11:36 am

    Agree with all you say.

    A 30 year job to clean up the mess.

    Though Andrews is unlikely to start the process by culling his Sturmabteilung.

  58. John Constantine

    Fake Fur.

    Radio reveals that short staple crossbred wool price rise and demand is coming from Chinese mills using it to make fake fur products.

    Go fake furriers.

  59. Infidel Tiger

    Saluting the coffin is just terrible.

    He should have just bowed his head and had a moment of quiet reflection.

    No country on earth has done more to institute faux formality than the supposed Republic of the USA.

  60. Rae

    The image of the President of the United States, with the First Lady beside him, at the coffin of GB brought tears to my eyes. A very powerful moment.

    Artificial. Standing there for ages, just staring at the flag-draped coffin. Then prompted her that it was time to salute. Then prompted her that it was time to go.

  61. jupes

    Death Giraffe! There’s a new tough kid on the block.

    Vicious, blood-spitting alpaca attack had WA women fearing for their lives before being saved by police

    Scroll down for a photo of Harry the angry alpaca – the embodiment of evil.

  62. I’ve been looking for an update for the French citizen allegedly shot on video, but the story has disappeared. Has anyone heardanything about it?
    Google doesn’t have it, DDG has no mention.

  63. Death Giraffe

    Bit of time on my hands, so…



  64. Snoopy

    China isn’t stealing from anyone by manufacturing cheap shit. As long as it isn’t fake brand name stuff or doesn’t involve IP theft, suck it up.

    Chonda small engines. Even the labels look the same.

  65. .

    I’m not saying that doesn’t happen Snoopy.

    struth’s ideas (making policy at the will of the Chinese) mean that we’ve already been conquered by the Chinese.

  66. bespoke

    Top Ender

    Emotional gilt will get some beta males but not the rest.

  67. Snoopy

    Chinese free trade. Explained.

    Except with trade the Chicom government aids and abets the crooks.

  68. C.L.

    I tried to allude to this earlier but Catallaxy’s stupid filter wouldn’t allow a mystery word.
    There is another grand gay lobby con afoot: Labor and the left-wing media (BIRM) are today re-badging the religious liberty question as their attempt to stop gays being expelled from schools. There is no evidence that any such expulsions have occurred. That is not the issue.

    And get this: Morrison has announced it will be a conscience vote for Liberals. That means the usual suspects will be free to vote against religious liberty while staying ‘true’ to the party. It should, of course, be a strictly whipped bloc vote.

  69. Struth:

    If nations can’t work out what they need to do to become developed, when the examples are right there before them, subsidising them is pointless.
    The west did it without subsidy.
    And without others examples.

    Be careful, Struth. I brought this up a couple of years ago only to get abused by the Hall Monitor and his enforcers, despite it being A Very Good Question.
    I only mention it now because the Economic Sophisticates can be very abusive of the questioner, rather than the question.

  70. The western world is in this mess because right of centre parties can’t see humans as anything other than economic units.

    Astute observation, I.T..

    My God, you both sound like socialists.

    Do you mean Coles and Woollies, who espouse mass migration for free growth? Left-leaning HR departments who see people as mere resources? Politicians who characterise us as mere voters?

    You’re playing for the wrong side.

  71. areff

    “Because he looked so beautiful, we thought that spitting at us was part of his love for us,” Ms Stroebel said.

    They should have called the beast Mark Textor

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