Lost souls

The reason I have been up in Sydney was to go to a Wiggles concert along with my granddaughter. The place was packed to the rafters and for the under-sevens it was a sensation. But for me, it was how they ended the afternoon that truly astonished me. First they brought on Santa Claus which I thought was amazing enough. And then, wildly beyond any expectation I might have had, notwithstanding this being December, they then sang Silent Night, but in German. Still I thought, that was amazing since they could not have been more Christian in their presentation. And then they continued in English, and there is no more Christian Christmas carol than Silent Night. It was a perfect way to end for me, although I doubt there were many there who noticed or thought this was particularly remarkable, but it was.

Now tonight, more than a day later, I was reading this typical piece of dreck, title: America’s New Religions, in which the point being made by Andrew Sullivan was that one cannot live without some kind of faith in the transcendent, which I did agree with, but there towards the end was this:

Now look at our politics. We have the cult of Trump on the right, a demigod who, among his worshippers, can do no wrong. And we have the cult of social justice on the left, a religion whose followers show the same zeal as any born-again Evangelical. They are filling the void that Christianity once owned, without any of the wisdom and culture and restraint that Christianity once provided.

This equivalence was obviously false. Only on the left is politics a religion substitute. These are lost souls. I will say no more than the obvious, that atheism is not a feature of the right and whatever may be the reason for our support for PDT, we do not think of him as a “demigod” who can do no wrong. But what is revealed is the tragic spiritual loss in the empty lives of so many on the left. There is much more that could be said, but will only add this from another website:

Liberty wasn’t born out of the United States Congress but from the heart of God. It is an inalienable right – a God-given right – a right which belongs to all men everywhere and in every age. The government doesn’t grant inalienable rights. Its task is to protect them. No person, no group, no government, is authorized by our Creator God to infringe upon what is the absolute inherent privileges of being made in the image of God or might interfere with one’s duty to God. When we try to separate liberty from the spiritual, when we base it in human definitions and objectives alone, freedom is corrupted, counterfeited, and dies.

I cannot link to these posts because of the primitive machinery I am on, but finding both online today does give me some hope for the future, not to mention the Wiggles who did the same.

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39 Responses to Lost souls

  1. Rafe Champion

    How long are you in town?

  2. Bruce of Newcastle

    Trump is no demigod. He is a leader who fights. Like Montgomery, who was a difficult man but fought. Poms on the street loved him. Grant fought. Patton fought.

    The ordinary people have been watching the sweeping victories of the fascist left with fear. Is it any wonder that the fearful are embracing Trump like they embraced Patton? Patton got into trouble with the MSM and the elites, but the ordinary people loved what he was doing.

    Compare Trump with Romney. Romney represented more of the same Republican royalty. He is a Mormon. So there was no incentive for Christians to back Romney. Christians can back Trump because of what he does as a leader, and that he fulfils his promises whenever he can. Would’ve Romney tried to roll back the nanny state, fight for tax cuts, push deregulation hard and call out CAGW as the giant fraud it is?

    Nope. That is why he failed.

  3. Herodotus

    It’s sherriff Trump and the game is on – at the Last Chance Saloon.

  4. Jonesy

    The left are the denialists. They embrace ANYTHING that aligns against western christian culture.

    Good on The Wiggles! Post 9,11, There was a comparison between the national rugby league team and the Wiggles. Both were about to tour the US as the attack unfolded. The ARL team backed out…the Wiggles went.

  5. Mother Lode

    If you want to see a sect masquerading as politics, just remember who spoke of their journey to the White House the ‘moment when the seas ceased to rise, and the planet began to heal’.

    At look at how his congregation accepted that man’s laughably pretentious prayer to himself.

  6. No matter how you view Christianity, there’s no denying that it’s the glue that has held western civilisation together for millennia. The Left has no such glue and continually fragments in their search for alternatives. When you’re nothing but a collection of tribes, all you worship are idols served by witch doctors.

  7. TheSenator

    What began with Protestantism will end in Socialism.

  8. Angus Black

    I don’t see anything contradictory in being both relatively conservative (though I take a live and let live position whenever possible – provided no one is trying to being bully me into submission – there is no one quite so stubborn as a Tyke) and being an atheist.

    Being an atheist does not stop me from feeling the beauty of a traditional high-church carol service (provided they haven’t gone the full marimbas and atonality). And there is immense beauty in the sacred music of the renaissance and the baroque.

    You don’t have to believe in God to see the value of the church in western Society.

  9. John Constantine

    Their Pope funky did inspire the global compact on migration, where the Vatican insists on the Christian industrial west become a dispersal area for the disposable cannon fodder of the world’s poorest polygamous wife herds Tyrannies.

    Christianity has almost morphed into a non reproducing self loathing heresy, hellbent upon self immolation of the entire legacy culture.

  10. Christianity has almost morphed into a non reproducing self loathing heresy, hellbent upon self immolation of the entire legacy culture.

    While the Woke Pope keeps up his sanctimonious cants, I suspect that most Catholics only pay lip service to his nuttiness. Then there are all the other Christian religions that quietly go about their faith, apart from the weird Anglicans.

  11. Speedbox

    Off topic but I remember going to those Wiggles concerts with my own kids.

    What a circus! Hundreds of little children going absolutely nuts! Its like every kid has been handed a can of Red Bull as they entered the arena. The parents initially trying to control them then just giving up.

    Great show by the Wiggles and the kids are ‘over-the-moon’ exultant but jeeeesuuus chriiiiist.

  12. .

    Trump is no demigod.

    HERESY! BLAM!

    There can be no peace until the enemies of the God-Emperor cease to draw breath.

  13. There can be no peace until the enemies of the God-Emperor cease to draw breath.

    And thus spoke God-Emperor Turnbull.

  14. max

    One of the reasons that Trump won presidency is that he promise to people something that he can not deliver.

    Demagogue:
    is a leader in a democracy who gains popularity by exploiting prejudice and ignorance among the common people.

    nothing will change in Washington or Canberra until people hearts and minds change.

    when is this going to happen?

    when government checks do not buy much or start to bounce, until than, people will continue to worship their God — state — from cradle to grave

  15. Ellen of Tasmania

    Trump is no demi-god. He’s a sinner, ‘good, ‘ard and proper’.

    But Christians understand that God can draw straight with crooked lines. We’re all praying that this may be one of those times and one of those people.

    God have mercy on us.

  16. One of the reasons that Trump won presidency is that he promise to people something that he can not deliver.

    Errr! Even Joe Scarborough is giving the president the credit he deserves.

    Not that you’ll find much on the MSM.

    And don’t forget Obama’s mockery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk6YMk2J-5k

    “President Trump would need a magic wand to get to 4% GDP,” stated President Obama. I guess I have a magic wand, 4.2%, and we will do MUCH better than this! We have just begun.

    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 10, 2018

    Or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2maMZ3erOQg

  17. .

    IT BEGINS. DAY 1 OF FULL BLOWN CATALLAXY’S WORLD FAMOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE

  18. Garry Cuttriss

    I keep reading articles by the religious right denigrating Atheists as lefty’s. You might be surprised at just how many Atheists there are on the right of politics. In fact I would say many on the left are not truly Atheists but instead follow the Marxist religion. Atheists on the right tend to be people who have thought about the issue a bit more deeply and recognise that religion has been of some value and that many people still need it’s comfort.

  19. Iampeter

    Now tonight, more than a day later, I was reading this typical piece of dreck

    Not sure what your issues is with it, as he is just as confused as you and most everyone today about everything. E.g. he thinks Trump and his supporters are on “the right” even though it has been nothing more than a third Obama term.
    He is also spot on in pointing out the cult-like behavior of Trump supporters, as you yourself have abandoned sound economics in these very pages, in favor of tariffs and leftist “fair trade” nonsense.
    The rest of it reads like the usual cargo cultist appraisal of our culture, not least because he thinks Christianity, the most deadliest monotheistic religion, responsible for derailing Western Civilization for over a millennia and inspiring communism and fascism, as “restrained”.

    Liberty wasn’t born out of the United States Congress but from the heart of God.

    So liberty was born from a supernatural, dictator archetype? No. Obviously.
    Saying “rights come from God” is the same as saying “rights come from the state” but with extra steps.

    the point being made by Andrew Sullivan was that one cannot live without some kind of faith in the transcendent, which I did agree

    Then I’m not sure what all the hubbub you’re making about immigrants from the Middle East is all about. Not even sure why you’d oppose movements like ISIS. You agree with them on very fundamental questions about existence and the correct approach to thinking.

    Until conservatives abandon their religious and traditionalist collectivism, they will continue to fail to provide any alternative to the secular leftists.

    As to Christmas, aside from the name, it’s not a very Christian holiday at all. Not the way we’ve been practicing it for over half a century. Christmas today is largely a product of the very successful marketing campaigns from America’s big retailers and is all about consumerism, presents, good will towards fellow men and partying. Literally the OPPOSITE of everything Christianity teaches, which is about embracing poverty, suffering, self abnegation, sacrifice and death.
    Saying “merry Christmas” is as anti-Christian a phrase as one can utter.

    So, having said all that, I think naming your post “lost souls” is pretty spot on, so there’s that.

  20. Brian

    Senator, can I recommend Francis Schaeffer – “How shall we then live” which is a review of relatively modern history. Starting with the collapse of authoritarian and corrupted Catholicism, he traces 2 broad movements running in parallel. The Humanists returned to man as the centre of all authority – and that movement progressed through Rennaisance, Enlightenment, the French Revolution [acka The Terror] to Communism and Fascism and also to Post Modernism – or “whatever is true for you”. The other great movement that arose was the Reformation which asserted the Scripture alone as the authority. It had profound influence over the development of science, the Civil War under Oliver Cromwell [who was a strong advocate of religious tolerance where it was not overtly political] and then the American Declaration of Independence and its Constitution. Reflecting on the current world scene, the Reformation principles are scattered and mostly local, whereas Humanism and its various manifestations are very much abounding. And it is very much a case of reaping what we sow.

  21. Iampeter

    Humanists are not an alternative to reformationists, who in turn are not really an alternative to “authoritarian Catholics” because they still agree with them on all the fundamentals. These movements were the ones that caused The Dark Ages, The Terror, communism and fascism and today are playing out their part in Post Modernism. I mean if you can believe the metaphysically impossible nonsense required to be religious than you can’t oppose post modernism. You’ve rejected reason, which is the only tool of such opposition.
    The alternative to the mysticsim and collectivism of all these movements that come from the Bible, is reason and individualism. These ideas originate with the secular philosophers of ancient Greece, specifically Aristotle. The rediscovery of these ideas, after the Christian caused Dark Ages, is what led to the Enlightenment, the discovery of the concept of rights, even if in a flawed fashion, then finally the Declaration, the Constitution and the worlds first rights protecting republic.
    To suggest this came from scripture is laughably false.
    Nothing in Western Civilization comes from scripture.
    Scripture is the oldest enemy of Western Civilization.

    This is just a cargo cultists view of our culture and history, typical from today’s utterly clueless conservatives, who are just as bad and often even worse than progressives.

  22. max

    Iampeter say:

    “Nothing in Western Civilization comes from scripture.
    Scripture is the oldest enemy of Western Civilization.”

    let see what some other people think:

    It is never a question of “creed vs. no creed”; it is a question of which creed.

    creed:
    a system of religious belief; a faith.
    a set of beliefs or aims which guide someone’s actions.

    religion:
    a set of beliefs

    There is no neutral education.
    Every educational system is covenantal. It is structured in terms of a worldview.
    Every theory of education has religious presuppositions regarding God, man, ethics, causation, and time.
    Put differently, it has a theory of sovereignty, authority, law, sanctions, and the future.
    Every worldview is confessional: “we believe.” The more confessional the worldview, the more consistent it is.
    The war for control over who controls the answers to these five crucial issues has been going on ever since the first tax-funded school was begun.”

    Education — because it deals with ultimate reality, with ideas and values of ultimate importance — is necessarily religious.

    Where did I come from? What is the nature of man? What is truth? What is the meaning of sexuality? What is the meaning of history, and what is my part in it? Educators who pretend the crucial questions can be avoided for 12 years, or can be answered in some “neutral” or “value-free” way, are deceiving themselves.

    Religious assumptions will necessarily undergird and suffuse any curriculum. Did He create the world, or not? Is He the architect of history, or does man determine it? Does the government rest upon His shoulder, or not? And on it goes. From anthropology to zoology, education is intrinsically, inescapably religious.

    Am I saying then that the public schools should impart the Christian worldview? No.

    But that doesn’t mean the public schools will be devoid of religious messages. Far from it. As Humanist Manifesto signer John Dewey understood, public education is religious — and whether you call the prevailing philosophy humanism, or secularism, or agnosticism, the public schools are soaked through with it.
    Their religious message is clear: God may or may not exist, but He’s simply not relevant to what goes on in school.

    How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods

    In How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, you’ll learn:

    Why modern science was born in the Catholic Church
    How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
    How the Catholic Church invented the university
    Why what you know about the Galileo affair is wrong
    How Western law grew out of Church canon law
    How the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life

    No institution has done more to shape Western civilization than the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church

    Murray N. Rothbard:

    “Christianity has played a central role in Western civilization and contributed an important influence on the development of classical-liberal thought.”

    Gary North:

    Western civilization is the historical product of Christianity. Without Christianity, the development of the West would have been radically different. Of course, secular humanism and various intermediary philosophies have contributed greatly to the growth and shape of Western institutions since about 1660, but without the impact of Christian thought and culture, the foundations of Western secular humanism would not have been laid. It is impossible to think of Western culture without considering the historical impact of Christianity.
    Most Protestants understand this fact. Yet at the same time, they have a tendency to denigrate the cultural accomplishments of the Roman Catholic Church in the medieval era. It is as if Protestants think that Western culture sprang up overnight in response to Luther’s nailing of the 95 theses on the wall. But when we consider the savagery that faced the Irish missionaries in the sixth and seventh centuries, we all should become aware of the vast impact pre-Reformation Christianity had on Europe. In fact, without that impact, there would never have been a Europe. There would have been nothing more than pagan, fragmented tribes of primitive savages, with only an occasional raid from the Norsemen to bring “advanced” pagan culture into their lives.

  23. Iampeter

    Max you’re ignoring all the fundamentals and constantly contradicting yourself.
    For example, when you say “education — because it deals with ultimate reality, with ideas and values of ultimate importance — is necessarily religious.” Obviously if you’re dealing with “ultimate reality” you’re not being religious, which is about evading reality.

    But the fundamentals are this:
    Western Civilization is about reason and individualism.
    Religioun is about mysticism and collectivism. Especially Christianity.

    Therefore Christianity not only did not create Western Civilization, but is completely and fundamentally at odds with it.

  24. Peter Campion

    Iampeter

    Your comments are vastly better when you justify your arguments, as you’ve done on this thread, rather than just driving by and saying “You’re all wrong but I’m not saying why”. Thanks.

  25. max

    How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization: Thomas E. Woods:

    “Western civilization stands indebted to the Church for the university system, charitable work, international law, the sciences, and important legal principles …

    Western civilization does not derive entirely from Catholicism, of course;

    The Church repudiated none of these traditions, and in fact absorbed and learned from the best of them.

    With the exception of scholars of medieval Europe, most people believe that the thousand years prior to the Renaissance were a time of ignorance and intellectual repression in which vigorous debate and lively intellectual exchange did not occur, and that strict conformity was ruthlessly imposed on whatever scholarly community might be said to have existed.

    in “Dark Age” Europe that the university system, a gift of Western civilization to the world, was developed by the Catholic Church.

    Church—provided the framework for the Scientific Revolution, which was unique to Western civilization.

    monks played a critical role in the development of Western civilization.

    The idea of formulated “rights” comes from Western civilization. Specifically, it comes not from John Locke and Thomas Jefferson—as many might assume—but from the canon law of the Catholic Church.

    Joseph Schumpeter, have even gone so far as to call these Catholic thinkers the founders of modern scientific economics.

    The fact is, the Church cherished, preserved, studied, and taught the works of the ancients, which would otherwise have been lost.

    it is to the Middle Ages that we owe one of Western civilization’s greatest – unique – intellectual contributions to the world: the university system.

    The university was an utterly new phenomenon in European history. Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome.

    The Church developed the university system because, according to historian Lowrie Daly, it was “the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge.”

    Eighty-one universities had been established by the time of the Reformation. Of these, thirty-three possessed a papal charter, fifteen a royal or imperial one, twenty possessed both, and thirteen had none.

    The Scholastics, by and large, were committed to the use of reason as an indispensable tool in theological and philosophical study, and to dialectic—the juxtaposition of opposing positions, followed by a resolution of the matter at hand by recourse to both reason and authority—as the method of pursuing issues of intellectual interest.

    among the most important medieval contributions to modern science was the essentially free inquiry of the university system, where scholars could debate and discuss propositions, and in which the utility of human reason was taken for granted.

    Christian idea of a rational, orderly universe .. and consistent physical laws.

    It was not coincidental, that the birth of science as a self-perpetuating field of intellectual endeavor should have occurred within a Catholic cultural milieu.

    In Science and Creation, Jaki extends this thesis to seven great cultures: Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya.

    they conceived of the universe as a huge organism dominated by a pantheon of deities and destined to go through endless cycles of birth, death, and rebirth. This made the development of science impossible.

    Jaki does not deny that these cultures made some impressive technological contributions.

    “the earlier technical innovations of Greco- Roman times, of Islam, of imperial China, let alone those achieved in prehistoric times, do not constitute science and are better described as lore, skills, wisdom, techniques, crafts, technologies, engineering, learning, or simply knowledge.”

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7HxXw2uoFLC2NV6txCvHFd17EiXHJu-m

    Iampeter you better write book to refute what Mr. Woods is saying or give me book name which refute his writings.

  26. .

    Can’t it be both max? The Church was about the only thing that survived the fall of Rome and it was staffed by flawed humans who like their secular lieutenants (royalty), had a tendency to do awful things as they held near absolute power.

  27. max

    “Can’t it be both max?”

    of course life is not white or black

    “Rome and it was staffed by flawed humans”

    nothing new here — whole human history is like that.

    “they held near absolute power”

    this is debatable, depend how you interpret “near”

    Until 1073 no much after that start concentrating — one of the reasons that lead to reformation

  28. Roger

    Christianity has almost morphed into a non reproducing self loathing heresy, hellbent upon self immolation of the entire legacy culture.

    Don’t confuse the religion of the current pope with orthodox Christianity, John.

    The pope’s faith is heavily diluted with “social justice”, an additive that permits unbelievers and doubters to remain in the church.

  29. Iampeter

    Max, you’re still missing my point. Once you’ve grasped the fundamentals you’ll see that the random quotes you’re posting are obviously wrong. You don’t even need to know anything about history, you just need to know how to integrate and think clearly.
    Obviously a mystical, collectivist religion, did not create a rational (therefore secular) and individualist culture. They are complete opposites.

    As to books on the subject, I’d recommend the following:
    The Story of Civilization, vol. 4, The Age of Faith – Will Durant
    A History of Western Philosophy, vol. 2, The Medieval Mind – W. T. Jones
    Aristotle’s Children: How Christians, Muslims and Jews Rediscovered Ancient Wisdom and Illuminated the Middle Ages – Richard Rubenstein
    The Closing of the Western Mind: The Rise of Faith and the Fall of Reason – Charles Freeman
    And many, many more…

    Bottom line is, you need to learn how to think first, then read books, otherwise you’re incapable of seeing the glaring contradictions in every argument you’re putting forward from those books you’ve read.

    For example, contrary to creating universities, Christian emperor, Justinian I shut down the Greek schools of learning, including Plato’s academy which had been open for 900 years (!). This in turn led to Christians far from preserving any knowledge, but becoming so uneducated and illiterate, that they couldn’t even read their holy books. In parallel, all the infrastructure collapsed because of a complete lack of skills, plagues followed and civilization collapsed back into total poverty, ignorance and death worship.
    Just because education and freedom crept back into Christian Europe, there’s no link to Christianity being the cause of it. Obviously, since Christianity explicitly OPPOSES these things.

    But you’d know this, if you could join the dots and see that mysticism does not create reason. There’s a glaring contradiction there.

  30. Iampeter

    Max, you’re still missing my point. You need to grasp the fundamentals first and then you’ll see that the random quotes your posting and random arguments you’re making are obviously wrong.
    You need to know how to integrate and think clearly and then you’ll be able to see that a mystical, collectivist religion, obviously didn’t lead to a rational (therefore secular) and individualistic culture.
    You won’t even need to know anything about history.
    As to books, I can recommend the following:
    The Story of Civilization, vol. 4, The Age of Faith – Will Durant
    A History of Western Philosophy, vol. 2, The Medieval Mind – W. T. Jones
    Aristotle’s Children – Richard Rubenstein
    And there are many, many others that competently cover this subject.

    You’ll learn that far from inventing the university, Christian Emperor Justinian I, shut down the Greek schools of learning, including Plato’s academy, which had been open for 900 years (!). This effectively ended learning in Western Civilization for a millennia. This was the start of the Dark Ages.
    Far from preserving any knowledge, Christians became so uneducated and illiterate, that they couldn’t even read their own holy books. Which in turn led to collapse of infrastructure, civilization, plagues, etc.
    The fact that universities and freedom slowly crept back into existence in Christian Europe is obviously not because of Christianity. Christianity explicitly opposes these things.

  31. Iampeter

    Iampeter

    Your comments are vastly better when you justify your arguments, as you’ve done on this thread, rather than just driving by and saying “You’re all wrong but I’m not saying why”. Thanks.

    Look, I appreciate what you’re saying but to be perfectly blunt, this doesn’t need to be directed at me.
    My posts are always supported by arguments, at least at the start of threads, then I get the usual suspects respond with endless ad hominems. I mean, one lunatic even follows me from thread to thread and critiques my grammar.
    If you really care about comments justifying their arguments, then it’s these cretins you should be directing these kinds of comments at, not me.

  32. max

    Iampeter

    Plato, the First “Planner”
    Many people believe that this issue arose with the advent of socialism a century or so ago and was given its impetus and virulence by the communist class war dogma of Karl Marx. That is not so.
    The controversy is almost as old as civilization. It began in ancient Greece, almost four hundred years before the Christian era, with the doctrines of Plato. He was the first of the “planners” and the true founder of the communist economy which deifies the state. In his Republic the Athenian philosopher set out a virtual blueprint for the evolution of what has come to be called the “Welfare State.”
    https://mises.org/library/it-started-plato

    Gary North:

    Greek society and Greek wisdom were based on all eight of the characteristics I listed below:

    Would you spend money to buy a curriculum program based on a philosophy of education that assumes the following? (1) The legitimacy of homosexuality, especially the seduction of teenage boys by men over age 30; (2) warfare as a man’s supremely meaningful activity; (3) polytheism; (4) a personal demon as a philosopher’s source of correct logic; (5) slavery as the foundation of civilization; (6) politics as mankind’s only means of attaining the good life, meaning salvation; (7) the exclusion of women from all aspects of public religion; (8) the legitimacy of female infanticide.

    well we came to this:
    who are you going to believe who are you going to trust, who is telling truth.

in economical matters I trust Ludwig von Mises leader of the Austrian School of economic thought and his followers like Murray N. Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Friedrich Hayek.

    in politics I read mises.org, lewrockwell.com, fee.org,

    about religion Gary North, Thomas Woods

    Now maybe you do not understand but communism, socialism , fascism, nazism democracy …they are all religions — their God is person in charge, party in charge and state.

  33. max

    Iampeter

    “All Law In Every Culture Is “Religious” In Origin

    Law is in every culture religious in origin. Because law governs man and society, because it establishes and declares the meaning of justice and righteousness, law is inescapably religious, in that it establishes in practical fashion the ultimate concerns of a culture. Accordingly, a fundamental and necessary premise in any and every study of law must be, first, a recognition of this religious nature of law.

    Second, it must be recognized that in any culture the source of law is the god of that society. If law has its source in man’s reason, then reason is the god of that society. If the source is an oligarchy, or in a court, senate, or ruler, then that source is god of that system. Thus, in Greek culture law was essentially a religiously humanistic concept.

    Modern humanism, the religion of the state, locates law in the state and thus makes the state, or the people as they find expression in the state, the god of the system. As Mao Tse-Tung has said, “Our God is none other than the masses of the Chinese people. In Western culture, law has steadily moved away from God to the people (or the state) as its source, although the historic power and vitality of the West has been in Biblical faith and law.

    no disestablishment of religion as such is possible in any society. A church can be disestablished, and a particular religion can be supplanted by another, but the change is simply to another religion. Since the foundations of law are inescapably religious, no society exists without a religious foundation or without a law-system which codifies the morality of its religion.”
    Rousas John Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law, 1973.

  34. max

    question is never religion vs no religion

    question is what kind of religion is governing your society your laws in that society, there is no neutrality.

    If I get power by chance I will put laws that I believe in, like:

    no fiat money
    no central bank
    no income tax
    no universal suffrage
    no standing army
    no professional police
    and so on

  35. Iampeter

    To be fair, the fundamental enemy of Western Civilization also originates in ancient Greece with Plato the mystic.
    In fact, if you were to break down all the intellectual battles in the West throughout history, it would amount to Aristotle’s reason and individualism vs Plato’s mysticism and collectivism.
    Because you haven’t grasped these fundamentals, you haven’t joined the dots and realized that aside from planting the seeds for what would later become communism and fascism, Plato also planted the seeds for the predecessor of these ideas, which is Christianity.
    But if Western Civilization was Platonic then it would be no different to every other civilization, which is mystical and collectivist. Everyone on earth would still be living in the mud.
    The whole reason Western Civilization is unique and so successful and so are those that mimic us, is because it is rational, secular and individualistic.

  36. max

    Iampeter say:

    In fact, if you were to break down all the intellectual battles in the West throughout history, it would amount to Aristotle’s reason and individualism vs Plato’s mysticism and collectivism.

    some diferent views on Aristotle:

    “Aristotle was quite possibly the most influential defender of slavery and racism in the history of Western civilization, should we therefore conclude that Aristotle himself was evil, irrational, and morally contemptible?

    According to Aristotle, “there are certain people who are free and certain who are slaves by nature, and it is both to their advantage, and just, for them to be slaves.”

    Aristotle’s defense of slavery was based on the theory that some peoples were “congenitally incapable of reasoning” and so were intended by nature to be slaves. These natural slaves (certain tribes of “barbarians”) were inferior both mentally and physically to Greeks. Inferior peoples are suited only for “the menial duties of life,” so they should be treated as “animate article[s] of property,” as we would treat domesticated animals. It is “nature’s intention” that those “who are superior in goodness” (owing to their superior mental abilities) “ought to rule over, and be the master of, his inferiors.” Moreover, slavery, in addition to being just, actually benefits the inferior classes, since it enables them to partake of the superior abilities of their natural masters.

    Aristotle :

the city-state is naturally prior to the individuals, because individuals cannot perform their natural functions apart from the city-state, since they are not self-sufficient (1253a18-29).

    And although the particulars of Aristotle’s ideal state are somewhat less repulsive than the unvarnished totalitarianism defended by Plato, Aristotle set no theoretical limits on the power of the state to dictate the lives of individuals, down to the minutest details.

    In order to promote the good life and maintain social order, the state should inculcate civic virtue. Those “who care for good government take into consideration virtue and vice in states. Whence it may be further inferred that virtue must be the care of the state which is truly so called.” This concern with civic virtue was the basis for Aristotle’s plan of a comprehensive system of state education, one explicitly based on the Spartan model.

    Aristotle’s political views were the reverse of the theory of limited government defended by liberal individualists.

    It would be difficult to overestimate the influence of Aristotle’s defense of racism, slavery, and political collectivism on Western philosophy, politics, and culture.  For centuries his doctrines stood as major obstacles to the development of theories defending the equal rights and freedom of individuals.”

  37. Iampeter

    some diferent views on Aristotle:

    That’s not a different view on Aristotle, that’s a disintegrated view, which is what you’ve been doing all thread.
    Take the issue of slavery for example, if I do what you’re doing all thread, I guess Western Civilization is the culture of slavery. I mean we had slaves, there’s plenty of examples I can randomly quote to prove that and therefore we are slavers. But an integrated thinker will take into account the context, the ideas, actions, consequences and their relationships, pointing out that the fundamentals of Western Culture on the issue of slavery is that it led the way in abolishing slavery. The West is anti-slavery, despite having a history of owning slaves just like every other culture.
    Likewise with Aristotle, whatever his flaws, he was fundamentally the worlds first rational, individualist. These ideas in turn bloomed into Western Civilization that we enjoy today, regardless of any issues we still need to work out or any issues Aristotle had in many of his conclusions.
    Applying this clear thinking to every issue, you can then see that the fundamentals of Christianity and religion in general, are mysticism and collectivism, thus utterly in opposition to Western Civilization.

    It would be difficult to overestimate the influence of Aristotle’s defense of racism, slavery, and political collectivism on Western philosophy, politics, and culture.

    Yet you have no such qualms with overstating the influence of the worlds worst death cult on Western Civilization?

    Like I’ve been saying all thread, you need to learn how to think clearly, so you can integrate all these facts you know and be able to tell up from down.

  38. cohenite

    The whole reason Western Civilization is unique and so successful and so are those that mimic us, is because it is rational, secular and individualistic.

    And:

    Yet you have no such qualms with overstating the influence of the worlds worst death cult on Western Civilization?

    You were almost there then you shat your pants. No one can overstate the destructive influence of islam.

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