Open Forum: January 12, 2019

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1,648 Responses to Open Forum: January 12, 2019

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  1. Top Ender

    And a bit more from the above:

    With the appeals machine grinding ever slower, Attorney-General Christian Porter last year ordered a review by former High Court justice Ian Callinan.

    His job is to work out how to take the sugar off the table while still leaving a path open for genuine appeals. Removing automatic bridging visas would be a good start. There is no obvious reason, for example, why those appealing against adverse run-of-the-mill decisions on student, working or partner visas should be allowed to stay while their claim is processed.

    Labor is unlikely to back such reforms, judging by the policies in its draft national platform presented to its 48th national conference in Adelaide before Christmas.

    Labor plans to abolish temporary protection visas and instead grant instant refugee status, stripping the authorities of any power to expel those who subsequently commit serious crimes or are found to have lied.

    Labor also plans to remove the ability to expel New Zealand citizens of bad character. More than 1300 Kiwis who have committed crimes or were suspected of being involved in crime have been deported in the past three years.

    The good news for self-identifying lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex or queer asylum-seekers from countries where homosexuality is illegal is that they will automatically qualify for refugee status under Labor’s draft policy.

  2. 132andBush


    We now have a two pronged attack: make electricity ruinously expensive and get stuck into aircon through specific measures.

    Spot on.

    How anyone involved with this can claim compassion for their fellow man, given the dodgy “science” behind it, is beyond me and should be considered a sick joke.

  3. areff

    State of war in effect down here in Melbourne. The avian air force, Green Parrot Squadron, descended en masse last week and hit my apricots on the very day I was going to harvest them. Managed to save about 20% of a bumper crop, much of which became apricot jam last night.

    Yesterday, corella skirmishers hit the fig tree, testing the ones at the top for succulence and finding them not quite yet to their taste. They’re back again this morning, but in strength, continuing yesterday afternoon’s pattern of dropping by every few hours to see if lunch is ready.

    It wouldn’t be so bad if they ate the fruit in its entirety, but no! One bite out of every piece and then despoil the next fruit-laden branch.

    Looking out the office window right now, half a dozen corellas — Little Corellas, actually, the ones with the big eye patches — are currently investigating the birdseed I scattered at dawn.

    I think I’ll put in a sign pointing to the local CentreLink. All the lady corellas will need to do is veil-up and they’ll fit right in to the freeloaders’ queue.

  4. struth

    Good Moaning.
    We need to look at our core problems that cause all the rest.
    For example the UN.

    A struth for PM manifesto would be to instantly remove ourselves from this corrupted organisation and vow to bring in laws disallowing any “treaty” with anyone anywhere without it being put to the people first.
    All treaties that are in place now, that have not been approved of by the people of the nation democratically are instantly invalid, and those bureaucrats unelected, or not, who have signed us up without asking their bosses (us) will be sacked.

  5. struth

    If history is any guide, we face a future with more expensive and less efficient cooling systems, all to appease “rule ze vorld” international socialists.

  6. Nelson Kidd-Players

    Labor also plans to remove the ability to expel New Zealand citizens of bad character. More than 1300 Kiwis who have committed crimes or were suspected of being involved in crime have been deported in the past three years.

    So the ALP wants to institutionalise the old joke that when a kiwi migrates here, the average IQ of both countries increases.

  7. struth

    Despite the Coalition’s best endeavours to close the loopholes,

    sorry, not buying that.

  8. areff

    Q: What do you call a Kiwi in a suit?

    A: Defendant

  9. ABC radio have kicked off nicely with the Citizenship debate.

  10. hzhousewife

    Out of six people in the coffee shop this morning, one found a baby possum, possible abandoned, in her yard last night, and another a young king parrot on her doorstep this morning. Reminder (as if any is needed here on the Cat) to please put out shallow dishes of water for the wildlife this week.

  11. Premature post.
    First and only guest is Mark Riley, Mayor of the People’s rebublic of Moreland, or is it general General Secretary?
    He’s moved on from this issue and his (wrong personal pronoun no doubt) council is working toward a Treaty. Yah!

  12. stackja

    14 ‎January 1979 Lillian (or Liliana) Gasinskaya, 18, jumps off a Russian liner into Sydney Harbour wearing a red bikini and later wins a battle for asylum from the Soviet Union.

  13. OldOzzie

    Tom Thanks

    an Australian Winner today Roy #2

  14. Ƶĩppʯ (ȊꞪꞨV)

    Temps over 35C28C in Soyboy land.

    fixings

  15. mh

    Donald J. Trump
    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    ·
    1m
    Wish I could share with everyone the beauty and majesty of being in the White House and looking outside at the snow filled lawns and Rose Garden. Really is something – SPECIAL COUNTRY, SPECIAL PLACE!

    No Mr President, it’s catastrophic climate change resulting from you pulling out of Paris.

  16. OldOzzie

    The Shutdown Is Providing Evidence Of Private Businesses Making Government Obsolete

    The government shutdown is just providing more evidence that the government itself is unnecessary. Private companies in the Yellowstone area are voluntarily paying to keep the park clean without federal funding.

    According to Reason, nearly three weeks into the government shutdown, some of America’s national parks are starting to get a bit rank. Access to the parks (which are supposedly “owned” by the people who think they are the government) is free since there are no employees to collect the typical $35-per-vehicle entrance fee. But that comes with the trade-off of there being no employees to empty trash bins or clean toilets either.

    Meanwhile, without being forced by the government, private companies are voluntarily paying to keep Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming clean. National Public Radio reports, local businesses are chipping in to make sure the bathrooms get cleaned, the roads get plowed, and the tourists keep coming. Even in the middle of winter, the park gets an estimated 20,000 visitors per month—and those hardy folks want to rent snowmobiles, hire tour guides, and take sightseeing trips. The private-sector businesses that thrive on those tourist dollars have a pretty strong incentive to make sure Yellowstone remains accessible – much more incentive than the government has.

  17. struth

    Talking about propaganda.

    Even when I was a kid, and I am only 52 now, Fascism was known by all to be left wing.
    Always was, always will be.

    I’m on here a bit more just lately due to an injury to my shoulder which may end up in some life changing decisions to be made.
    And by hell, if I can’t even play the guitar anymore, (which I do professionally) there’s going to be one hot head of a Struth going to rallies and getting involved far more than just commenting on blogs.

  18. stackja

    Sydney to bake in five days of above 40C temperatures
    The Daily Telegraph
    January 14, 2019 7:00am

    Sydney is about to swelter through five days of above 40C temperatures as a ‘severe’ heatwave strikes every state and territory in the country.

    While a sea breeze will shield the city to some extent, Western Sydney has been warned to expect ‘extreme’ conditions over the next few days.

    Residents in Penrith and Richmond will swelter through a week of above 40C temperatures with an expected peak of 43 degrees on Friday.

    Tomorrow will see a maximum of 31 in the city and 40 in the west, with Wednesday temps to reach 32 in the city and 41 in the west.

    Sydney? Western Sydney?

  19. struth

    Heatwaves are a thing of the future, it seems.
    and tomorrow never comes.

    When the term “low intensity heat wave” is used, you can safely assume ’tis a bullshit artist you are listening to.

  20. Cactus

    Memoryvault

    #2906697, posted on January 14, 2019 at 1:10 am

    Now, about my bottle of twelve year old Haig Dimple.

    Got it as a Christmas present in 2009.
    Put it aside “for a rainy day”.
    Promptly forgot about it, then had heart attack and stroke in 2010.
    Came across it this New Year’s Eve, a bit before midnight.
    By my reckoning, by that stage it was it was over twenty years old.
    Not bad – but I was three sheets to the wind by then.
    And not really in a position to judge.

    I hate to rain on your parade Memoryvault, but whisky doesn’t ‘age’ in bottle, in that it doesn’t change. So that bottle of 12yo despite being about 20 years old is still a 12yo whisky. I’m sure it is a nice bottle, hope you still have some to enjoy.

  21. Eyrie

    Almost 19 months and Mrs Eyrie’s Australian citizenship hasn’t come through yet.
    The idiots apparently don’t even do triage on the application so the easy ones get dealt with quickly.
    Our wonderful Federal Government at work.

  22. Des Deskperson

    ‘Mystery Road on Aunty has Ernie Dingo portraying an elder r pist and all round eevil dude, to his/their credit.’

    Egg, in terms of plot, character development, dialogue and production values generally, Mystery Road was way ahead of the usual earnest cardboard that’s typical ABC drama.

    It did, however, include the obligatory historical Indigenous massacre, and the ending was a bit formulaic, although the Indigenous Big Man as the baddy was, as you say, a refreshingly honest twist.

  23. stackja

    Heatwave to scorch Sydney made worse in the west by winds
    Jack Morphet, The Sunday Telegraph
    3 minutes ago
    Subscriber only

    Sydney will be split into two cities again this week thanks to the weather event which divides the sprawling metropolis into the “haves” and “have nots” every summer.

    The “sea breeze” is as Sydney as barbecues and zinc noses during the summer months. It, along with the geography of Greater Sydney, is the reason why Bondi can be 29C and Blacktown 40C on the same hot summer’s day.

    Simply, the “have” suburbs along and near the coast get the cooling effects of winds — generally from the north-east and east — which flow in off the Pacific Ocean, hence the label sea breeze.

    A ridge that divides the Sydney basin, running from Camden to the Hills district, traps hot westerly winds and also blocks out or deflects sea breezes.

    “When you drive along the M4 from the city, you’re driving slightly uphill until the ­intersection of the M4 and M7 (at Eastern Creek) then it’s downhill until near the foot of the Blue Mountains,” Senior Research Fellow at Western Sydney Univer­sity Dr Sebastian Pfautsch said. “It’s not many metres but there’s a lip that’s efficient enough to hold in the heat and there’s less air movement because of the depression.

    “The deepest point in the depression is Penrith, where you get the hottest temperatures because the hot air sits in there nicely.”
    Dr Pfautsch said the building boom in western Sydney is also creating more “heat islands” contributing to higher night temperatures as heat­ ­absorbed by concrete and brick during the day is ­ released. Road traffic and airconditioning exhausts add to the problem.

    “You’d think heat islands would be worse in the eastern suburbs, where there’s a higher density of infrastructure, but the eastern suburbs are cooled by the sea breeze,” he said.

  24. stackja

    Federal election: GetUp! finances reveal millions extra to attack Peter Dutton and Tony Abbott
    John Rolfe, News Corp Australia Network
    January 13, 2019 10:00pm
    Subscriber only

    Exclusive: Left-wing activist group GetUp is amassing a multimillion-dollar war chest to attack Coalition MPs including Tony Abbott and Peter Dutton at the looming federal election.

    GetUp’s latest financial report, recently filed with the Australian Securities and Investments Commission, shows donations rose about 20 per cent in 2017-18 to $9.8 million from $8.3 million.

    According to the group’s annual report, to be released today, the jump was the product of an increase in the average donation — to $50 from $44 — along with a rise in the number of contributions to 65,000 from 57,000.

    “It’s clear that when politicians bicker among themselves while blocking action on the issues that matter, like climate change, you’ll see an uptick in the number of people looking to have their voice heard,” GetUp national director Paul Oosting said.

  25. Rae

    Meanwhile, without being forced by the government, private companies are voluntarily paying to keep Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming clean. National Public Radio reports, local businesses are chipping in to make sure the bathrooms get cleaned, the roads get plowed, and the tourists keep coming. Even in the middle of winter, the park gets an estimated 20,000 visitors per month—and those hardy folks want to rent snowmobiles, hire tour guides, and take sightseeing trips. The private-sector businesses that thrive on those tourist dollars have a pretty strong incentive to make sure Yellowstone remains accessible – much more incentive than the government has.

    Self interest wins. Every time.

  26. Rae

    Even when I was a kid, and I am only 52 now, Fascism was known by all to be left wing.
    Always was, always will be.

    Fascism is, and always was, just to the right of Far Right. Like Nazism.

  27. struth

    Fascism is, and always was, just to the right of Far Right. Like Nazism.

    When you can actually believe socialism is far right, you may want to use the “better to silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt option.

  28. Baldrick

    Scroll the Troll 👹

  29. Mater

    Fascism is, and always was, just to the right of Far Right. Like Nazism.

    I’m genuinely curious as to why you think so, Rae.
    What characteristics put it there, in your opinion?
    Honest question.

  30. Rossini

    Rae
    #2906792, posted on January 14, 2019 at 9:40 am
    Self interest wins. Every time.
    I would rather use the term SURVIVAL

  31. OldOzzie

    NOTHING NEW HERE, Watkin Tench figured that out in his book A Complete Account of the Settlement at Port Jackson.

    ‘“December 27th, 1790. Wind NNW; it felt like the blast of a heated oven, and in proportion as it increased, the heat was found to be more intense, the sky hazy, the sun gleaming through at intervals’

    ‘An immense flight of bats, driven before the wind, covered all the trees around the settlement, whence they every moment dropped dead, or in a dying state, unable longer to endure the burning state of the atmosphere.’ Nor did the perroquettes, though tropical birds, bear it better; the ground was strewed with them in the same condition as the bats.

    Were I asked the cause of this intolerable heat, I should not hesitate to pronounce, that it was occasioned by the wind blowing over immense deserts, which, I doubt not, exist in a north-west direction from Port Jackson, and not from fires kindled by the natives’

    Watkin Tench wrote. chapter XVII

    “December 27th, 1790. Wind NNW. At 9 AM 85° At noon 104 Half past twelve 107 1/2 From one P.M. until 20 minutes past two 108 1/2 At 20 minutes past two 109 At Sunset 89 At 11 P.M. 78 1/2

    ‘[By a large Thermometer made by Ramsden, and graduated on Fahrenheit’s scale.] December 28th. But even this heat was judged to be far exceeded in the latter end of the following February, when the north-west wind again set in, and blew with great violence for three days. At Sydney, it fell short by one degree of what I have just recorded: but at Rose Hill, it was allowed, by every person, to surpass all that they had before felt, either there, or in any other part of the world. Unluckily they had no thermometer to ascertain its precise height.

    At 8 A.M. 86 10 A.M. 93 11 A.M. 101 At noon 103 1/2 Half an hour past noon 104 1/2 At one P.M. 102 At a quarter past i, it stood at only 89, having, from a sudden shift of wind, fallen 13° in 15 minutes. . At 5 P.M. 73 At sunset 69 1/2’

    ‘The thermometer, whence my observations were constantly made, was hung in the open air, in a southern aspect, never reached by the rays of the sun, at the distance of several feet above the ground.’

    109F = 42.7 C

    PDF Reference

    A Complete Account of the Settlement at Port Jackson

    Including An Accurate Description of the Situation of the
    Colony; of the Natives; and Of Its Natural Productions
    Tench, Watkin (1759-1833)

    University of Sydney Library
    Sydney

  32. MatrixTransform

    MV –

    I just knew there was a good lad in there somewhere

    …wait for it.

    BruiseOfNewcastle, when somebody’s first interaction with me is to call me an asshole, using Candy’s honour as a pretext and then running under the Good Lords skirt for protection … I know damn well I am not dealing with a good and gentle person.

    I think we all know what good gentleman should say in response …

    but I wont hold my breath waiting for the righteous to do the right thing

  33. OldOzzie

    Editorial: Stop the boats before they go

    The Daily Telegraph

    Australia is, and will remain, a target.

    People-smugglers have us in their sights. This has been the case ever since the Coalition government launched a successful range of counter-measures to stop the boats.

    Keeping those boats stopped is a continuing challenge. Where there is easy money to be made from misery or sheer opportunism, people-smugglers are poised to strike.

    A recent Spectator Australia article by Iranian-born journalist Sohrab Ahmari summarised the current smuggling situation: “Modern human-smuggling networks have perfected the business of transporting people from point A to point B, across national frontiers …

    “Information technologies, not least cheap smartphones with astonishing GPS capabilities, make it possible to blaze ever-new trails …

    “There are tricks to adapt, even as governments open and close their borders.”

    But we have a few tricks available as well. As The Daily Telegraph reports, Australian and Malaysian authorities stopped a people-smuggling operation headed for our shores before the boat hit the water.

    The plan, which was busted earlier this month, would have sent 34 asylum seekers towards Australia and New Zealand. Instead, that halted vessel is now among the 80 stopped by Operation Sovereign Borders.

    Any weakness, real or perceived, in our border protection system will cause a revival of the people-smuggling industry in our region. Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton remains alert to this evident fact.

    “This disruption shows that people-smugglers continue to market Australia and New Zealand as a destination,” he said. Those Labor politicians who are soft of borders should take note.

    Australia’s best defence is our unyielding resolve. This is clearly working. For his Spectator piece, Ahmari met potential asylum seekers:

    “Finland was ‘too cold, and they don’t pay much welfare’, one said. Switzerland was too expensive. And by picking Europe, the men had ruled out other destinations.

    “Oz, for example, was out of the question.

    “They had heard that Australian authorities divert illegals to Papua New Guinea.”

    Our borders will be kept substantially safe while that message keeps getting through

  34. OldOzzie

    The Joys of Victoriastan

    Head-on crash leaves seven people in hospital


    A woman is fighting for life and six others have been taken to hospital after a serious crash in Melbourne’s southeast that has caused major traffic delays, with two roads closed and police on the scene.

    Princes Highway is closed outbound in Springvale due to the head-on collision and Springvale Rd is closed in both directions

    Police spokeswoman Elaine Cooney said six people travelling in white VW sedan, all aged between 16 and 20 years old, have been taken to hospital including a 20-year-old woman with serious injuries.

    The car they were travelling in is only equipped to carry five passengers.

    Superintendent John Fitzpatrick described the crash as “significant” and said speed is possibly a factor in the crash.

    “Really lucky at this stage that no one has lost their life,” he said.

    Supt Fitzpatrick said the six passengers inside the VW sedan were of African appearance and that the overcrowding was “irresponsible”, adding at least one person suffered significant injuries due to not having a seatbelt on.

    Investigators are not yet sure if the car was stolen, however witnesses have told police the car may have run a red light seconds before the crash.

    Debris from the collision was thrown all over the road with everyone involved in the crash injured.

    Among the most seriously injured is a 20-year-old woman who was taken to the Alfred Hospital with injuries to her head, legs and chest.

    A male in his late teens was taken to the Royal Melbourne with head injuries but is now in a stable condition.

    Paramedics also took another male aged in his late teens to Dandenong Hospital after he suffered injuries to his leg.

    A high-school aged girl was taken to Monash Medical Centre with back injuries and is now in a stable condition.

    The sole occupant of the northbound vehicle, a Parkdale man in his 40s, was also taken to hospital.

    Eight ambulances were needed in order to treat all seven victims.

    The crash happened at the intersection of Springvale Road and Princes Highway about 4.50am.

    VicRoads have advised drivers to avoid the intersection and allow extra time through the area.

    Inbound traffic on the Princes Highway is still open.

  35. mh

    MatrixTransform,

    I just heard 2gb’s John Stanley saying that he would like the Aboriginal flag as Australia’s national flag. I think it is a dumb idea. Thoughts?

  36. None

    It’s clear that when politicians bicker among themselves while blocking action on the issues that matter, like climate change, you’ll see an uptick in the number of people looking to have their voice heard,” GetUp national director Paul Oosting said.

    Climate change? So why are you targeting MPS like Peter Dutton and Tony Abbott you f****** liar?

  37. Mater

    Fascism is, and always was, just to the right of Far Right. Like Nazism.

    Ok then, let me go first. I believe the best way to judge, and ensure historical context is considered, is to compare them with the dominant socialist economy of the time, the Soviets.

    I have an analysis here from an eminent Professor of Economics (and economic historian) which says that they were definitely socialist from an economic stand point.

    http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/64262/sovietnazieconom00temi.pdf?sequence=1&origin=publication_detail

    I have an analysis here which indicates that from a Legalistic viewpoint, they emanated from the same ideas and looked bloody alike from a practical standpoint.

    http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/WAJurist/2017/10.pdf

    I have a highly referenced book which indicates that they treated unionism in much the same manner.

    http://web.warwick.ac.uk/russia/tubook.pdf

    If they are very similar (or the same) in terms of economics, legal and IR, why aren’t they both socialists?

  38. Top Ender

    If I remember rightly Liliana, “the girl in the red bikini”, later was Australian Penthouse‘s first nude centrefold, and got a substantial wad of cash for the job.

    Wonder where she is now?

    That reminds me, I have that first edition, in new condition, waiting for the price to go up. Along with a first edition Oz Playboy.

  39. Mater

    That reminds me, I have that first edition, in new condition, waiting for the price to go up. Along with a first edition Oz Playboy.

    Did you have two of them?
    😉

  40. None

    There is no such thing as an Aboriginal flag mh, first of all because there were 200 or so Aboriginal tribes which we never united, and since then people have moved around and married and into married, and secondly because a flag is a white man’s ensign and third because the guy who designed the Aboriginal flag was an activist who did so and whacked a copyright on it so that he gets a fee or something every time it’s flown. It is tiresome enough having all the left wing trolls come out every Australia Day wanting to change the date change the flag fly an activist’a flag and whatever other f****** idiocy their juvenile knee-jerk minds what today without having you start , mh. Why don’t we discuss your affection and affiliation with Blair Cottrell’s group and your attraction to other far right groups like Australia First?

  41. Top Ender

    After four intruders broke into his home, an Arizona man shot all four, killing one, according to authorities.

    The Yuma County Sheriff’s Office said the man was sleeping at 1 a.m. on Jan. 3 when he was jolted awake by the four intruders attempting to break in.

    “The subjects made entry into the home and during the process of the home invasion and burglary, an occupant of the home fired several rounds, striking all four of the subjects,” according to the sheriff’s office.

    Local news station KYMA reported that an eyewitness who lives on the street said the man had warned the intruders that he was home by flicking his lights on and off inside the residence. The intruders ignored the warning, breaking in via the back door and smashing the window next to it. The owner subsequently opened fire and hit all four suspects.

    KYMA reported that one of the suspects, Jessica Aynes, 28, was pronounced dead soon after the shooting.

    The other suspects were identified as Edith Guerrero, 36; Jaden James, 18; and Leonardo Gonzalez, 27. All suffered gunshot wounds and were transported to local hospitals.

    According to GunsToCarry.com, Arizona gun laws operate at the state level, meaning any person age 18 or older can legally open carry, and anyone at least 21-years-old can conceal carry a firearm without a permit.

    The state also has strong Castle Law doctrines for home invasions.

    It was a cry for help from the four of course.

  42. Roger

    The Fascist Manifesto of 1919 called for (among other things):

    An 8 hour work day, a minimum wage, reduction of retirement age from 65 to 55, workers participation in industrial commissions (industry would be highly regulated by the state), labour unions to be accorded the same status in public life as employer groups, universal suffrage (including the vote for women) and increased social welfare.

    If that’s right wing the ALP is right wing.

  43. mh

    and whatever other f****** idiocy their juvenile knee-jerk minds what today without having you start , mh.

    None, you total fvcking loser. If you don’t like my posts fvcking scroll past! Like I do with your endless diahrrea 💩💩💩

  44. Old School Conservative

    mh
    #2906811, posted on January 14, 2019 at 10:25 am
    MatrixTransform,
    I just heard 2gb’s John Stanley saying that he would like the Aboriginal flag as Australia’s national flag.

    Seriously?
    Or just winding MT up?

  45. Mother Lode

    The Hill – Trump is right: Walls work on the southern border

    One of the unusual things about The Hill is that its commentary seems exclusively by lunatic leftists.

    And a more spittle-flecked shouty rage-filled echo chamber has surely never existed.

  46. mh

    OSC, I wasn’t making it up. John Stanley said that.

    He may have been virtue signalling to a caller who wanted the date changed from 26 January.

  47. Eyrie

    “The Fascist Manifesto of 1919 called for (among other things):

    An 8 hour work day, a minimum wage, reduction of retirement age from 65 to 55, workers participation in industrial commissions (industry would be highly regulated by the state), labour unions to be accorded the same status in public life as employer groups, universal suffrage (including the vote for women) and increased social welfare. ”

    Sounds like they got it all in Australia.

  48. Roger

    If that’s right wing the ALP is right wing.

    Did I mention that all this social progress was to be funded by a highly progressive income tax and the expropriation of wealth if necessary in the name of fairness, in particular the property of the Catholic Church?

    In short, Fascism in its inception was the labor movement on steroids.

  49. Roger

    In short, Fascism in its inception was the labor movement on steroids.

    The key difference between Fascism & Marxism, both movements of the Left, was that Fascism was nationalist whereas Marxism was internationalist, hence the bitter rivalry between them which began with violence on the streets in the typical Leftist manner.

  50. Old School Conservative

    Thanks mh.

  51. struth

    In all things, the left are exactly what they accuse others of being.
    It is also true that the louder and more hysterical the accusation, the more you can be assured that they are exactly that.
    In other words, the left are telling you exactly what they are.
    When it comes to Nazis, and fascists, they scream the loudest.
    If you look at racism, gun control, environmentalism, sex, collectivism, the all powerful state as a replacement for religion,( and most definitely in Australia), the control of the means of production without owning it, the violence, the jooo hatred, the infanticide, abortion and the like, the siding with Islam and just an all out and openly expressed hatred of western capitalism, you’d have to say that really the only difference between the left of today and Nazis is in the uniforms.

  52. struth

    To have a flag you first need to know how to make one.

  53. stackja

    Top Ender
    #2906816, posted on January 14, 2019 at 10:31 am

    Lillian Gasinskayoy: The Russian in the red bikini who captivated Sydney
    DAVID MEDDOWS, The Daily Telegraph
    January 14, 2016 2:37pm

    In 1984 she married property tycoon Ian Hayson, responsible for building the Harbourside Shopping Centre, but the couple split four years later.

    Gasinskaya disappeared after that and little is known about her life in Australia since.

    DO YOU KNOW LILLIAN? CONTACT US AT [email protected]

    SMH

    By then a household name, Ms Gasinskaya was allowed to stay in Australia and later married wealthy Sydney property developer Ian Hayson in 1984. The marriage had faltered by 1990 and the Red Bikini Girl slipped back into obscurity as a colourful episode of defection in Australia’s immigration history.

  54. struth

    And Rea rea does a Monty………………………………………….

  55. DO YOU KNOW LILLIAN? CONTACT US AT [email protected]

    That or similar appears most years, somewhere.
    Nobody has ever taken them up on it.
    Not even Lilliana.

  56. Mater

    The Fascist Manifesto of 1919 called for (among other things):

    I agree with you Roger, but people like monty just get around this inconvenient truth by says that Hitler was just pandering to the left for support, and then promptly dropped these policies after attaining power.

    I think the best way to get around this BS is to compare what was actually instituted and compare it to that of the Soviets. If they want to deny that the Soviets were actually socialists, then that is a whole other argument. Hitler may have dropped some of the policies and principles, but then so did the Soviets. Probably more through necessity than design…after all it is a utopian philosophy and completely contrary to human nature.

    In my opinion, Facists are nothing more than socialists that had the advantage of being able to observe and learn from the mistakes of the Soviets.

    In that same year, Mussolini had taken over the Italian Socialist Party at the Congress of Reggio Emilia. Being opposed to the ‘bourgeoisie’ parliaments as well as ‘proposing that Italian socialism should be thoroughly Marxist’. Mussolini in Opera Omnia wrote ‘Marx is the father and teacher […] he is the magnificent philosopher of working-class violence’. Further, he wished for Italy to have the ‘greatest bloodbath of all, when the two hostile classes will clash in the supreme trial’.

    Mussolini predicted that in World War Two ‘[w]ith the unleashing of a mighty clash of peoples, the bourgeoisie is playing its last card and calls forth on the world scene that which Karl Marx called the sixth great power: the socialist revolution’. However, this was not the case.

    Mussolini noticed that the Marxist belief of ‘international socialism’ failed to work as the Communists had anticipated. It did not prevent World War One, nor did it work when Lenin called for the worldwide ‘proletarian revolution’ in 1919. As Barbara Tuchman writes:

    When the call came, the worker, whom Marx declared to have no Fatherland, identified himself with country, not class. He turned out to be a member of the national family like anyone else. The force of his antagonism which was supposed to topple capitalism had found a better target in the foreigner. The working class went to war willingly, even eagerly, like the middle class, like the upper class, like the species.

    The coming of this new war, coupled with Mussolini’s determination to bring his country into it, resulted in him losing his position within the Italian Socialist Party. He had become a ‘heterodox socialist’ – a national socialist.

  57. thefrollickingmole

    Pinched from instapundit this is a nice short article.

    What a Socialist Really Wants

    Socialism and communism are often presented as scientifically derived theories about economics and politics. That’s the pretentious academic surface. In day-to-day practical terms, however, our left-wing visionaries try to answer this question: who should run the world? Inevitable answer: They should.

    Socialists are passionately concerned with making sure the right people have the power – that is, themselves.

    Democracy, on the other hand, is all about distributing power and making sure the worst people don’t get it. How do we know they are the worst people? Because they are obsessed with grabbing power and using it to stifle other people, an arrangement they call socialism or communism.

    It’s possible that many socialists don’t themselves know what they are really saying. Probably typical socialists always had a sense that they should have more power. Other people often have too much power, which is a bad thing. Beyond fixing these disparities, our socialists don’t need to discuss the details. Just get out of their way.

  58. Roger

    WWI decisively signaled the end of the old order.

    The working classes of Europe, upon whose labour capitalism depended, were on the march (we forget that even Britain experienced its near revolutionary moment in the General Strike of 1926) to obtain what they believed was theirs.

    The crucial question was, would the working class revolt against the old order take on the ideology of Marxism, Fascism or democratic socialism via the ballot? In Britain it was the latter, on the Continent it was fought out between Fascism and Marxism.

  59. Almost 19 months and Mrs Eyrie’s Australian citizenship hasn’t come through yet.
    The idiots apparently don’t even do triage on the application so the easy ones get dealt with quickly.
    Our wonderful Federal Government at work.

    Peter Dutton is largely to blame. He was the most inept & hopeless Minister ever in that portfolio.
    The chap who followed him can’t seem to run anything either.
    The wait time is now blown out to 30 months (if the dept is saying that, then the actual wait time is likely to be much longer)

  60. Elizabeth (Lizzie) Beare

    Hard to believe in a first world country.

    Whether Black or White, Candy, there is an underclass in Australia of people who live in squalor, and children living with them too. We have personal and close experience of this from my relatives, with children involved whom we have rescued as much as we could. A woman downstairs in their public housing block died from an overdose, and was only discovered when the smell became too strong. The block was absolutely infested with drug pushers and users, and with real cockroaches as well. Everything was filthy. All were on welfare.

    I think you did the best that you could do. Reporting children gets no action unless you have a specific incident – general squalor and neglect? Pfft. Go away, they say. Maybe on a slow day in three months time they might visit, if there are other reports too, but don’t hold your breath. Re the CPR – a friend of mine broke a man’s ribs with CPR when assisting at a road accident. The man lived, and as None says, pfft, what matters a rib in such situations? Fix the heel of the hand firmly on the sternum though as you apply some solid thumps with the other and ribs will usually stay intact (this woman probably had weakened bones anyway). CPR is a last resort, and never gentle. You did well, so did your son, and I am glad you told us here about this; it is a good place to vent emotions about system failures when you get drawn heavily into them.

  61. Bruce of Newcastle

    I wont hold my breath waiting for the righteous to do the right thing

    Thanks for your apology last night MT.
    Accepted!

  62. Memoryvault

    Good moaning Struth,
    May I say how much I enjoyed your two fantasy fiction fairy stories about international treaties and the UN, up at the turn of the page. Are you planning sequels, or were they stand alone tales?

  63. Roger

    So, basically, Fascism is “of the Right” only if you hold the standpoint of an orthodox internationalist Marxist.

    Now, play “spot the internationalist Marxist”.

  64. Mater

    The Fascist Manifesto of 1919 called for (among other things):

    I agree with you Roger, but people like monty just get around this inconvenient truth by says that H1t1er was just pandering to the left for support, and then promptly dropped these policies after attaining power.

    I think the best way to get around this BS is to compare what was actually instituted and compare it to that of the Soviets. If they want to deny that the Soviets were actually socialists, then that is a whole other argument. H1t1er may have dropped some of the policies and principles, but then so did the Soviets. Probably more through necessity than design…after all it is a utopian philosophy and completely contrary to human nature.
    In my opinion, Facists are nothing more than socialists that had the advantage of being able to observe and learn from the mistakes of the Soviets.

    In that same year, Mu55ol1n1 had taken over the Italian Socialist Party at the Congress of Reggio Emilia. Being opposed to the ‘bourgeoisie’ parliaments as well as ‘proposing that Italian socialism should be thoroughly Marxist’. Mu55ol1n1 in Opera Omnia wrote ‘Marx is the father and teacher […] he is the magnificent philosopher of working-class violence’. Further, he wished for Italy to have the ‘greatest bloodbath of all, when the two hostile classes will clash in the supreme trial’.

    Mu55ol1n1 predicted that in World War Two ‘[w]ith the unleashing of a mighty clash of peoples, the bourgeoisie is playing its last card and calls forth on the world scene that which Karl Marx called the sixth great power: the socialist revolution’. However, this was not the case.

    Mu55ol1n1 noticed that the Marxist belief of ‘international socialism’ failed to work as the Communists had anticipated. It did not prevent World War One, nor did it work when Lenin called for the worldwide ‘proletarian revolution’ in 1919. As Barbara Tuchman writes:

    When the call came, the worker, whom Marx declared to have no Fatherland, identified himself with country, not class. He turned out to be a member of the national family like anyone else. The force of his antagonism which was supposed to topple capitalism had found a better target in the foreigner. The working class went to war willingly, even eagerly, like the middle class, like the upper class, like the species.

    The coming of this new war, coupled with Mu55ol1n1’s determination to bring his country into it, resulted in him losing his position within the Italian Socialist Party. He had become a ‘heterodox socialist’ – a national socialist.

  65. C.L.

    Scientist stripped of awards for telling the truth:

    Nobel prize winner James Watson stripped of titles after suggesting genes make black people less intelligent.

    A Nobel prize-winning scientist who helped discover DNA’s double helix structure has been stripped of his honorary titles for repeating an “unsubstantiated and reckless” suggestion that genes make black people less intelligent.

    In an interview aired on US television earlier this month, James Watson — who won the Nobel in 1962 for his role in discovering DNA’s double helix structure — said genes were responsible for a difference between black and white people on IQ tests.

    He went on to say his views about intelligence and race had not changed since 2007, when he told a magazine that he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours — where all the testing says not really”.

  66. stackja

    Minister open to Australia Day date change
    Daniel McCulloch, Australian Associated Press
    an hour ago

    Liberal frontbencher Alex Hawke is open to changing the date of Australia Day if a majority of people support the shift.

    The special minister of state said he would advocate against changing the date if the perennial debate was put to a public test, but would respect the will of Australians if they wanted to celebrate on a different day.

    “Of course if the overwhelming majority of the Australian public take a view that it should be a different day that’s what will happen,” Mr Hawke told ABC Radio National on Monday.

    “But this government supports it staying on January 26 and we think it’s in step with the majority of public opinion.”

    With Australia Day less than two weeks away, national debate has again flared on the most appropriate date, with many indigenous people viewing January 26 as Invasion Day or Survival Day.

    Alex Hawke!

  67. stackja

    C.L.
    #2906850, posted on January 14, 2019 at 11:24 am

    African socialist diet?

  68. Memoryvault

    Fair enough Matrix.
    I suppose there is some notoriety in being the first and only person to push gentle BoN to say so much as “bugger” in the five years I have been posting here.
    Bask in your glory, son.
    Just remember you’re on your own the next time you make a drunken fool of yourself.

  69. struth

    Those on the left who scream for diversity come from fortresses of soft city whiteness like the ABC, and don’t seem to be giving up their tax payer funded largesse for any so called minority group.
    The come from the cold leafy streets of rich, public service , insulated Canberra, or in academia where themselves being made to cop it on the chin for diversity is not even considered.
    The insulated left wing elites.

    In everything it is the same.
    The left accuse others of not paying their fair share of tax, when mostly they, don’t pay any at all, receiving their gross income from taxpayers in the private sector.

    Theyy scream about the environment but have all the latest electronic gadgetry and own cars, go to the movies, watch fireworks over Sydney Harbour and claim there’s no environmental issue with it.
    There is no environmental issue that will get in the road of their enjoyment and entertainment.
    They’ll take drugs at music festivals that use mega amounts of electricity, ride in cars and trains to get there, leave a field of shit in their wake, get munchies for maccas and it’s throw away wrapping, and the very next day want to ban drinking straws and shopping bags.
    and electricity generation.
    In absolutely any grizzle by the left, any accusation they make against others you’ll find they are the actual problem, in absolutely everything.
    A leftist is a hypocrite.
    Every. single. time.

  70. C.L.

    New Dylan Napa video emerges, showing him nude, jerking off as a mate shadow-boxes in front of him. Totally normal behaviour for a Bulldog. Napa has now called in the lawyers.

  71. duncanm

    you won’t read it anywhere here or the US…

    Why Kim Jong Un’s visit to China was so important

    .. Even Kim said in his annual New Year’s speech that he remained committed to denuclearization..

    China fully supports the idea of a nuclear-free Korean Peninsula and is willing to help make it a reality….

  72. Memoryvault

    Thanks for the info re whisky ageing, Cactus.
    To be honest, I didn’t notice NYE.
    Now there’s not enough left to make much difference.

  73. Mother Lode

    So, basically, Fascism is “of the Right” only if you hold the standpoint of an orthodox internationalist Marxist.

    In my experience, ‘right’ is used as a grab bag for everything the ‘left’ sees as not being them.

    Conservatives, Libertarians, Theocrats etc.

    Because they see fascism as an embarrassment they have decreed it to be ‘right’.

    Then they conflate them all (even though there are not really many commonalities) when they need to. Hence, conservatism is akin to fascism.

  74. cohenite

    C.L.

    #2906850, posted on January 14, 2019 at 11:24 am

    Scientist stripped of awards for telling the truth:

    Nobel prize winner James Watson stripped of titles after suggesting genes make black people less intelligent.

    It’s funny; multiculturalism which is the weapon of choice for the commies to denigrate Western/white society on the basis all cultures/ethnicities are equal is now progressing well beyond that; Western society is now the source of all wrongs and evils; every culture is better including every black culture and in particular islam; we have the noble savage here in Australia as a constant reminder of the evils of Western/white society and how it exploits and destroys better societies such as the noble savage society.

    If eugenics is deplorable then what is an apt description of the whole-sale denigration of Western/white society?

  75. struth

    For the fascist, we should embrace hierarchies within nations, based on strength and “selections”, to use a chilling National Socialist word. We should accept differences between peoples — so long as groups, “in essence” different, are kept separated by fences and borders.

    Yep, everything that article says makes Fascism left wing.

  76. Roger

    In my opinion, Facists are nothing more than socialists that had the advantage of being able to observe and learn from the mistakes of the Soviets.

    There are many practical differences that can be observed, Mater, but the key doctrinal difference is between nationalism and internationalism. That aspect of Marxism lives on in Merkel and Micron’s (et aliter) polemics against the nation state.

  77. struth

    Good moaning Struth,
    May I say how much I enjoyed your two fantasy fiction fairy stories about international treaties and the UN, up at the turn of the page. Are you planning sequels, or were they stand alone tales?

    You’re welcome.
    I think you may already know there is a sequel in the pipeline.

  78. thefrollickingmole

    Whether Black or White, Candy, there is an underclass in Australia of people who live in squalor, and children living with them too.

    Extremely true, and as awful as it sounds the girls brought up in this sort of state are hunted by the blokes who know their parents can be “brought” or will turn a blind eye to her 10+ years older “boyfriend”.

    Took me a while to work out a fair bit of the stand-offishness of kids with crap parents was actually logical when you gave them a meal/helped them.

  79. Rae

    Ian Hayson, responsible for building the Harbourside Shopping Centre

    No, that is incorrect. It was actually former DJ, Tom Hayson (Ian’s father), who was responsible for building the Harbourside Shopping Centre (originally named Harbourside, the Festival Market Place).

    Tom was the driving force behind the whole of the redevelopment of the run down wharves and railyards at Darling Harbour in the mid to late 1980s. He had been to Baltimore in the US, seen the redevelopment of the run down harborside there, and took his own proposal for the similar redevelopment of Sydney’s Darling Harbour precinct to the NSW Government.

    Both his Festival Market Place and the Monorail (which Tom Hayson promoted as a means to get customers from the city centre to his Festival Market Place) were fully privately funded and operated components of the Darling Harbour Redevelopment Project.

  80. Boambee John

    Socialism and communism are often presented as scientifically derived theories about economics and politics. That’s the pretentious academic surface. In day-to-day practical terms, however, our left-wing visionaries try to answer this question: who should run the world? Inevitable answer: They should.

    Socialists are passionately concerned with making sure the right people have the power – that is, themselves.

    See m0nty’s “manifesto” when he told the truth while drunk a couple of weeks ago. Rule by “experts”, but only those experts chosen by the fascist left.

    Leftism is the lust for power over others, built on foundations of envy (of what others have) and hatred (of them for succeeding in gaining it).

  81. Mater

    Fascism: Who is and isn’t a fascist, and how you can tell the difference
    By Matthew Sharpe
    Updated 16 Aug 2018, 12:34pm

    Columnist Andrew Bolt has made a habit of talking of “Left fascists”. But fascism historically was a regime of the Far Right….

    I’m sorry Rae, but this doesn’t really assist in justifying your position. The author starts of with the assumption that “fascism historically was a regime of the Far Right”.

    It’s circular reporting.

    “They’re racist so they’re Right Wing” doesn’t work.
    “The Left is a peaceful ideology so the Nazi’s must be of the Right”, doesn’t either, especially given Marx believed in violent revolutions.

  82. Roger

    The second key doctrinal difference between Fascism and Marxism is how to effect the socialisation of the means of production.

    Fascism (and Nazism) was content with subordinating privately owned industry to national rather than individual goals by central planning under government control whereas Marxism, of course, required state ownership.

  83. stackja

    Liberty Quote
    I felt it my duty…to inflict upon the reader…my paradoxical conclusion: capitalism is being killed by its achievements.

    — Joseph Schumpeter

  84. Memoryvault

    You’re welcome.
    I think you may already know there is a sequel in the pipeline.

    Fair enough. I look forward to it.
    I do so enjoy a rollicking good yarn.
    If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion?
    Next time, stand with your legs apart and wave your arms around in the air a lot.
    It adds to the dramatic effect.

  85. Mater

    The second key doctrinal difference between Fascism and Marxism is how to effect the socialisation of the means of production.

    Roger have a look at the first reference in my previous post.

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2019/01/12/open-forum-january-12-2019/comment-page-7/#comment-2906814

    Only 42 pages (1990) from an eminent Professor (MIT) and not a page wasted in putting the facts down very simply. He says in the introduction, “The National Socialists were socialist in practice as well as name”.

    Having read some of his later work, I doubt anyone could claim that he is inclined to the ‘Right’ but he calls it as it was.

  86. Rae

    In my experience, ‘right’ is used as a grab bag for everything the ‘left’ sees as not being them.

    And “left” is used as a grab bag for everything the “right” sees as not being them.

    [You can’t leave off the corollary. It’s evidenced in almost every 2nd comment on this blog.]

  87. In more important news the contestants for “I’m a celebrity get me out of here” have been announced.

    Never heard of most of them.

    To me the main interest would be between who gets furthest, Jacquie Lambie or Dam Dastardly.

    Don’t even have to watch it as Daily Mail will no doubt have 27 stories about the show on a daily basis. Hope they don’t overshadow the Kardashian news !

  88. None

    This whole idea of IQ tests as a measure of intelligence really needs to die and just die in the arse fast.

  89. The A.D.

    This blog is the perfect experiment in free speech.
    As we can see from last night, like all other utopian libertarian ideals, it does not work.
    A small minority of malicious idiots will always wreck any freedom for everyone else.
    Such is the experiment in free speech of the post ww2 west.
    Hijacked by ratbags and wreckers and pornographers.
    Free speech is dead. Totalitarian and censorship returns.
    Only this time it isn’t indecency and blasphemy that is outlawed.
    It is any criticism of the rapid downward trajectory our betters have programmed for us.

  90. None

    Mh, you dimwitted illiterate. Did I say I didn’t like your post? Are people here for popularity contests or or just to collect followers like Facebook fwits? I challenged you and once again, like the cowardly fascist that you are you run away. Run along then.

  91. bespoke

    struth
    #2906779, posted on January 14, 2019 at 9:16 am
    there’s going to be one hot head of a Struth going to rallies and getting involved far more than just commenting on blogs.

    That’s the old stuth back I was getting worried.

  92. Des Deskperson

    The origins of Fascism were certainly right wing.

    It arose out of the ‘squadristi’ , groups of disgruntled vets from WW1 and Italy’s colonial wars who were employed in the early 1920s by business and landowners to beat up – and kill – peasants and workers fired up by what they saw as the success of Bolshevist Russia. The squadristi had the tacit support of centrist Italian government if the day.

    Mussolini saw the squadristi as a useful power base, but when in government he purged or bought off their leaders and introduced a sort of corporate nationalist state where economic and social relations were closely controlled by the government but that differed significantly from classic socialism in that property rights were retained and the means of production remained for the most part in private hands – so far as I am aware, there were no collective farms in Fascist Italy.

    Whether this clumsy and and only semi-coherent system actually worked – or whether anyone actually believed in it – are matters for debate, but the ‘squadristi’ aspect of Fascism is probably burned into the left folk-memory.

    On area where classical Fascism and the Australian left would be in complete agreement is cultural policy. the Labor view that Arts are part of our national identity and need to be regulated and subsidised to ensure we ‘tell our own stories’ is classic corporatist ‘cultural autarchy’.

  93. Des Deskperson

    “The National Socialists were socialist in practice as well as name”.

    So where were the Nazi collective farms?

  94. struth

    You’ve got National Socialism and Fascism, together.
    This is the nation state wanting “rule ze vorld” by means of external war, and there is Marxism’s Socialism that wants to “rule ze vorld” either by war or cultural revolution of the opposition countries
    There’s not that much to it .
    All socialists are power hungry totalitarians, and Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler were all socialists.
    Marxist attack culturally to bring on ze revolution is by far more of a threat than the jack-booted in your face thuggery of Hitler and his socialist allies, in our day and age, and nearly has our borders down, our youth brainwashed, and sovereignty of our nation in the hands of self declared international socialists (gutterres).

    The problem the left have is the constant screaming about Nazis.
    They in all things, are exactly and usually more extremely , what they claim their enemies to be.
    Today, like Hitler’s socialist Germany, and Mussolini’s socialist/ fascist Italy their policies are almost completely the same.
    Hitler’s rac-ism was pro white German.
    The socialists today are anti white rac-ists.
    All are ra-cist, and you can’t be a ra-cist unless you are a collectivist.
    Much of the reason they have become anti white is to distance themselves from socialist Hitler, a socialist so in your face, that you couldn’t hide his evil behind an iron curtain and a compliant media.

    Their greatest hang up is Hitler.
    If we let them push that socialist freak to our side, we deserve to go under.
    When we push back on this, all History becomes clear.
    The anti Joooooooish stance of the so called Modern left (what a joke) to environmentalism, gun control, the intrusive social control, the control of the means of production, and your average Joe won’t take much to see it.
    It makes it all fall into place, where people have been doing all sorts of leaps of logic , getting confused with what is just so obvious once you let go of the left wing propaganda.

  95. struth

    Next time, stand with your legs apart and wave your arms around in the air a lot.
    It adds to the dramatic effect.

    I’m in moderation, but maybe I’ll get to answer that.

    While flying to Canada!
    It makes people nervous in planes when you start flapping your arms.

  96. struth

    So where were the Nazi collective farms?

    Seriously?

    Think about it.

  97. bespoke

    Memoryvault
    #2906652, posted on January 14, 2019 at 12:11 am
    I’m probably the most unpopular regular poster here.

    JC’s running around in your head making you see things that aren’t there.

  98. Mater

    So where were the Nazi collective farms?

    You could say that, Des, but then again, the Soviets meandered in an out of that arrangement, also.

    The story in Germany reveals a similar centralization of control, but without the disruption of collectivization. Agriculture was within the scope of the Four Year Plan, as shown in Figure 1. In order to tie farmers to the land, the Nazis prohibited the sale of agricultural land (Petzina, 1968, pp. 91-96) . In order to maintain stable prices and still control production, marketing boards were given monopoly rights to agricultural output. There were quotas for delivery of specific products to the marketing boards at fixed prices.

    The boards served to keep prices up at the depth of the Depression when lack of demand (and a good harvest in 1933) threatened farm incomes. The boards then kept farm prices down during the industrial expansion of the middle 1930s (James, 1986, p. 357) . While farm ownership remained nominally private, the ability to make decisions and to claim the residual income was taken away. Ownership in the sense of having discretion over operations was put into escrow (Grossman and Hart, 1986)

    Despite the nominal difference between public and private ownership, the state’s control over agriculture was similar in the two countries. In both cases the state took control over prices, quantities and the access to land. And in both countries agricultural problems were among the most troublesome obstacles to fulfillment of the multi-year plans (Petzina, 1968, p. 96). The differences between Nazi and Soviet forms should not blind us to the similarity of functions.

  99. JC

    Not all of Yugoslav farm enterprises were government owned, deskperson. Was that a socialist country or not?

    The Swedish socialist party ran that shithole for 70 straight years. Are you telling us it’s name and ideological manifesto was just an advertising gimmick? To long in Canberra, perhaps?

  100. Des Deskperson

    “So where were the Nazi collective farms?

    Seriously?

    Think about it.”

    So the Nazis had a programme of wholesale expropriation of private agricultural property without compensation which they then put it under the control of the state?

    Examples, please

  101. struth

    That’s the old stuth back I was getting worried.

    If I can’t put a guitar strap over my shoulder anymore I’ll not be the nice, level headed struth you’ve all come to know and love……………………………………………..

  102. Percy Popinjay

    That video on Blair’s of the “former greenfilth MP” heaving up due to a dead fish is unintenional comedy gold.

  103. cohenite

    Leftism is the lust for power over others, built on foundations of envy (of what others have) and hatred (of them for succeeding in gaining it).

    Correct. I have never met a leftie who, push comes to shove, ever gave a fuck about anything except themselves. But they are selfish in a different way from a rightie who just wants to do what he wants to do without some bastard sticking his nose in his affairs. The leftie wants his selfishness expressed through others being subject to that self. It is a profound difference.

  104. struth

    Really Des?
    A country is not socialist until it has collectivist farms?
    If the means of production is controlled by the state, it doesn’t mean ownership, boof head, it means control.

    Whether or not is was collectivist farms, and much of it was slave on government farms from the farms being worked by concentration camps to private farms being told what to grow, and who to sell it for at what price, it was control of the means of production.

  105. min

    Mussolini was editor of a socialist newspaper after WW1 . He saw himself like Cola Di Rienzo/ Rienzi There is a statue of him on the Capitoline steps and was around in 1300 s. . He wanted to reform Rome and bring back the glory of the Roman Empire. He fixed up Rome and made it safer but then he got too big for his boots, delusions of grandeur and got himself crowned as Tribune of Rome . He upset the Germans who elected the Holy Roman Emperor when he made himself the Italian EMperor
    Anyway Mussoline followed the same ideals getting the Roman Empire back .
    How does this fit in with Facism ?
    Great Plague stopped Rienzi he had a bit of a go again afterwards that only lasted a couple of months.u

  106. MatrixTransform

    Bruce of Newcastle – #2906846

    I note mate, that you hold back an apology after squealing insult at me with about zero provocation.
    What, I made an offhand joke about the Book of Bruce?
    t’was you that put sydney and ezekiel on the same line.

    Regarding Candy’s house of horrors tale:
    As far as I can tell its all passionfruit one minute then indigeonous girls suiciding.
    Again I dont care so much about about suiciding girls when boys do it 4:1.

    And that’s about where you wade in slinging insults.
    …you have comprehension problems mate
    Your indignation is over somebody’s honour about a story of woe that I never read and about which none of my comments at the time was addressing.

    As far as I can tell you have manufactured outrage to legitimate yourself being a nasty piece of work.
    Just another White Knight … but such is the form of those who morally license themselves

    you and yr principles … I suppose you have more?

    Be a man big man … you give me that apology and I will let matter drop.

  107. Confused Old Misfit

    Nazi “collectives”
    Auschwitz-Birkenau
    Belzec
    Bergen-Belsen
    Buchenwald
    Chelmno
    Dachau
    Ebensee
    Flossenbürg
    Gross-Rosen
    Janowska
    Kaiserwald
    Majdanek
    Mauthausen-Gusen
    Natzweiler-Struthof
    Neuengamme
    Nordhausen (Dora-Mittelbau)
    Sachsenhausen (Oranienburg)
    Plaszow
    Ravensbrück
    Sobibor
    Stutthof
    Terezin (Theresienstadt)
    Treblinka
    Westerbork

  108. MatrixTransform

    the nice, level headed struth

    How debilitating is it with knackered shoulder?
    Literally everything becomes impossible.
    Is it your fretting hand or yr picking hand?

  109. Des Deskperson

    ‘A country is not socialist until it has collectivist farms?’

    According to any honest Marxist, yes.

    But I’m happy to canvas other definitions.

    So at what point – economic, social political – does a county become ‘socialist’?.

    Grateful, as they say, your views

  110. MatrixTransform

    Australia’s national flag. I think it is a dumb idea. Thoughts?

    I simply don’t care. Its just the usual ramp up to manufacture gibberish about Australia Day

  111. Mater

    So at what point – economic, social political – does a county become ‘socialist’?.

    This is the first line of my reference. If you replace ‘public ownership’ with ‘public control’, you have the Nazis.

    The economy of the Soviet Union is distinguished from that of capitalist economies by having both public ownership of property and centralized economic planning.

  112. MatrixTransform

    it becomes socialist when somebody cuts the political Mobius Strip

  113. struth

    I’m siitting here waiting for a 3;15 QLD doctor’s appointment.

    Very debilitating , can’t move arm around, had to go to the outpatients up at the hospital who gave me endone and some pain killers.

    xray shows no problem, but strangely it didn’t come on all at once, but gradually got worse.
    I have been rehearsing a fair bit, and it’s the strap shoulder that’s gone.
    I can’t lift up my arm to play even without the strap on.
    Next gig was to be Australia day.
    I think that’s out the window now.

  114. Mater

    ‘A country is not socialist until it has collectivist farms?’

    According to any honest Marxist, yes.

    Des, they vacillated on this, especially around the New Economic Policy around 1922 as their people were going to starve.

    As I said earlier, compare the respective actions of the Soviets and Nazis rather than apply strict idealogy. Happy to hear arguments that the Soviets weren’t socialist.

  115. MatrixTransform

    Stuth, go for a pedal steel?

    My business partner’s wife had hers operated on for a tendon torn and now the other arm’s gone bung too.
    To be honest I thought she was stacking it on at the time but she would favour the arm and to all outward appearances she looked perfectly fine.

    Ive had my own disabilities for years that stem from an old Bell’s Palsy and I just got on with and and got used to it. But this bloody shoulder of mine, thats a whole different thing.

    Cant work, cant was, cant type, yeah cant play guitar (never really could but thats beside the point).
    just getting the car keys from my pocket can set off.
    You have my sympathies Struth.

  116. struth

    So at what point – economic, social political – does a county become ‘socialist’?.

    I’d say that Australia is now a socialist country.
    Many would of course, disagree.
    Once government is so in charge of business (means of production) that it can pick winners and interfere in markets, not just effect them, I’d say you are gone.
    Once our education system is an indoctrination system, and funding depends on indoctrination, your gone.

    but all of that is irrelevant to Nazi Germany, because in absolutely every area you can look at, it was extremely socialist.
    The argument that he didn’t own businesses so can’t be socialist is absolutely ridiculous.
    The businesses did exactly what they were told to do by the state.
    Hitler owned the businesses, he just didn’t hold the certificate.

  117. JC

    So the Nazis had a programme of wholesale expropriation of private agricultural property without compensation which they then put it under the control of the state?

    Examples, please

    It would be interesting to get a handle on exactly what nazi Policy was in occupied territories like the Ukraine. I don’t have the evidence at my finger tips but I believe there was or planned wholesale expropriation of rural lands. Nazi policy was to push all industry out of Germany to the east in order to keep German land pure.

  118. JC

    According to any honest Marxist, yes.

    Ah yea, the honest Marxist theory. Anyone found one?

  119. struth

    yeah thanks, I jolted by accident yesterday and it sent me through the roof.

    I’ve got a sneaky suspicion it was too much rehearsal and I’m not as young as I think I am.

    Oddly enough , laying down is painful, and the most comfortable position is sitting here at the computer desk and lifting my right arm gently to the mouse and not moving it, hence the insane amount of comments.

  120. Mater

    Ah yea, the honest Marxist theory. Anyone found one?

    Not a live specimen. Most were found post-mortem with an Ice Pick in their ear.

  121. Snoopy

    It would be interesting to get a handle on exactly what nazi Policy was in occupied territories like the Ukraine. I don’t have the evidence at my finger tips but I believe there was or planned wholesale expropriation of rural lands.

    Wouldn’t the rural lands in Soviet Ukraine have been state owned and therefore belonging to whatever comprised the state of the day?

  122. MatrixTransform

    The Germans certainly expropriated without compensation from those people who were Jewish.

    also Expropriation of the Princes in the Weimar Republic

  123. MatrixTransform

    Hmm, previous post must have contained a bad word?

    Expropriation of the Princes in the Weimar Republic

  124. Des Deskperson

    Wouldn’t the rural lands in Soviet Ukraine have been state owned and therefore belonging to whatever comprised the state of the day?

    Well yes, but I imagine Nazi population policies would have involved the resettlement of German families on expropriated land -formerly held individually or collectively – across a range of occupied countries. No idea what the tenure arrangements of this resettlement might have been

  125. JC

    Desk.

    Did you do economics? The description given to distinguish socialism in my time was

    “Control of the means of production “

    How does nazism not fall into that category?

    Control doesn’t have include legal ownership. Look up the definition for the word.

    Also, where does control also mean the state has to own the land plots.

    Get out of the Canberra sun. You’re stroking.

  126. MatrixTransform

    Australia’s national flag. I think it is a dumb idea. Thoughts?

    MH, I was once slammed as a bigot for not caring one way or another about lesbian rights to IVF.
    gay marriage

    I still dont care.

    change the flag, the day, the date, the name … don’t care.

    as if anything would change that mattered.

    history is … not was

  127. cohenite

    Symbols are important; lefties who want to change the flag can get fucked.

    This distinction between Nazism and socialism is misplaced. Firstly socialism is a weasel word; it’s what commies use when not in power; it sounds softer and nicer than communism so its what c..ts like cortex use as she flits around like a flung turd braying to the idiots.

    Secondly, if you lived under Nazism you had as many rights as those ‘living’ under communism, which is to say none.

  128. Des Deskperson

    ‘Did you do economics? The description given to distinguish socialism in my time was

    “Control of the means of production “’

    That wouldn’t satisfy a Marxist, including a Marxist economist.

    Far a Marxist, ‘ownership’ is the key word, Whoever owns the means of production reaps the benefits. Even in a tightly controlled economy, those who own the means of production still – it is argued – have an economic advantage over the workers. In Nazi Germany, private firms were still paying their shareholders dividends, albeit capped at 6%, and therefore still benefitting from the exploitation of the working class.

    In a true Marxist socialist society, the means of production would be owned collectively and this advantage would disappear.

    Whetter this distinction is important in practice is another issue, but a great many people who call themselves socialists would insist that is.

  129. max

    Latest Quadrant includes news of Les Murray relinquishing his position with the magazine. He’s been fantastic, as the short printed appreciations (including Phillipa’s) suggest. Responded to submissions promptly with helpful suggestions, and unbothered by ideology, cant, age, gender, colour and climate. I know others will differ, but the poetry has been the best part of the magazine, and that is not to dismiss the other many good things it prints.

  130. struth

    Whetter this distinction is important in practice is another issue, but a great many people who call themselves socialists would insist that is.

    of course they would.
    But in practice , it’s socialism.
    Who regulated the 6 percent Des?
    Who set wages, working hours, who the business could sell, what it could make, etc etc.
    To claim a thin line of who holds the business reg certificate as this making Socialism extreme right wing is preposterous, absurd, and desperation from socialists.
    So yes, of course they would say that.
    Lefties are like that, Des.

  131. DrBeauGan

    The A.D.
    #2906887, posted on January 14, 2019 at 12:03 pm
    This blog is the perfect experiment in free speech.
    As we can see from last night, like all other utopian libertarian ideals, it does not work.
    A small minority of malicious idiots will always wreck any freedom for everyone else.
    Such is the experiment in free speech of the post ww2 west.
    Hijacked by ratbags and wreckers and pornographers.
    Free speech is dead. Totalitarian and censorship returns.
    Only this time it isn’t indecency and blasphemy that is outlawed.
    It is any criticism of the rapid downward trajectory our betters have programmed for us.

    Nah, AD. Just the odd bit of drunken abuse and name calling. Unseemly, but not devastating. And nobody has shut any of us up. The authorities just ignore us.

  132. Mater

    Whetter this distinction is important in practice is another issue, but a great many people who call themselves socialists would insist that is.

    Des, the left insist that the Nazis were Right wing because ‘Capitalism’. It was a planned economy, owners had no say in what, when or how many they produced and the market didn’t decide the price of said goods. Owners couldn’t sell their property and it was nationalised if they stepped out of line. Terror was used to ensure compliance.
    It may not fit strictly with the Marxist ideal, but nothing ever has. It’s the only defence the Left have to distance themselves from it, and it’s a weak defence.
    Either way, it’s nowhere near approaching Capitalism.

    As Vicky Caramel said: “Despite the claims by socialists here that he was a capitalist pretending to be a socialist, all the evidence points to him being a socialist pretending to be sympathetic to capitalists.”

  133. Roger

    “So where were the Nazi collective farms?

    So the Nazis had a programme of wholesale expropriation of private agricultural property without compensation which they then put it under the control of the state?

    Des, see my posts above on the differences between Fascism/Nazism and Marxism in regard to the socialisation of the means of production.

    Fascists permitted private ownership but controlled production ostensibly in the national interest.

    For this reason the Nazis set up the Reichsnährstand (Reich Food Corporation) in 1933, essentially a central planning committee, that oversaw production and distribution of agricultural products, set targets, etc.. Same goal as Marxism, just a different means of getting there.

  134. MatrixTransform

    All the hair splitting about what real socialism looks like regarding say, ownership of property.

    in my opinion, it need not be explicitly owned by the state so much as captured by the state.
    a trickle at first …

    Venezuela is a case in point where private property and free enterprise do still exist … but on paper only.
    The reality is effectively everything is captured.
    They are of course self declared socialists.

    Same in South Afrika. Socialistas for years … but only now and sneaky sneaky the expropriations get crystallized into ‘law’

    I would argue that the the laws/acts/customs etc that we wish to use as markers or signifiers of Socialism-ness after the fact, are actually pointless historical artifacts.

    The deed isnt always done just.like.that. Look at Wiemar Germany.

    Like the cat that got et by the carpet snake somebody was talking about… it doesn’t always happen in one big gulp.

    historical headline … Snake eats Cat.
    But the truth is, that there was some stalking and planning, some caution and avoidance, a miscalculation and an accurate one and a strike, and a struggle. Little by little with each exhalation the spark moved from the cat to the snake. It was long in the making and probably quite brief in execution compared to the decades it can take an nation or a populace. But once that snake had hold … it was always gonna a done-deal

    What I’m saying is that its all about degrees of freedom.
    If you’re captured restricted and the coils are getting tighter.
    Maybe you’re already breakfast but you just don’t know it yet for sure.

  135. The authorities just ignore us.

    Because “us” don’t matter.

  136. Memoryvault

    Because “us” don’t matter.

    For the time being.

  137. struth

    What I’m saying is that its all about degrees of freedom.
    If you’re captured restricted and the coils are getting tighter.
    Maybe you’re already breakfast but you just don’t know it yet for sure.

    boiling frogs.

  138. MatrixTransform

    Cloacal respiration in animals … well, I never.

  139. MatrixTransform

    wrong thread wankr

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