SA the mendicant state

Posted on 7:41 pm, January 15, 2019 by Rafe Champion

Interesting to see that SA is taking power from the East. What about all those wind farms?

This entry was posted in Australian Story, Rafe. Bookmark the permalink.

34 Responses to SA the mendicant state

J-man

#2908139, posted on January 15, 2019 at 7:50 pm

Turn it up. SA has been supplying for most of the day. NSW, on the other hand, has been receiving from Vic and QLD all day, and at very large amounts. This is not to argue with your main thesis that renewables increase the cost of power, but please, a little accuracy.
Big_Nambas

#2908142, posted on January 15, 2019 at 7:55 pm

Hope the heatwave bites hard can’t wait for the blackouts!!
MatrixTransform

#2908153, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:03 pm

I love the AEMO data dashboard and watching them push you money around the country.
MatrixTransform

#2908156, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:04 pm

and the price in Western Australia is … ?
Rafe Champion

#2908167, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:17 pm

Thanks J-man, most of the day I have been glancingat the other display that indicates the sources of power without a state breakdown.

Victorians can gloat that we are leaning on them but still at last look our power is cheaper (by one dollar). Besides we are massive users unlike SA and Victoria.

Looking at the peak load over 33 GW, that is really stretching the system, wind was low so hydro and gas had to ramp up bigtime, I wonder how sustainable that is?

The wind has risen in Sydney lately but it is not registering at the windmills. Sea breezes I suppose.
feelthebern

#2908180, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:30 pm

Doesn’t NSW always draw from QLD?
Happy to be told otherwise if it is not the case.
Nob

#2908181, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:31 pm

Show me one “renewable energy superpower” , anywhere in the world, that doesn’t rely on grid connections to reliable Hydro, Nuclear or Fossil Fuel.

Just one. Anywhere.
J-man

#2908193, posted on January 15, 2019 at 8:41 pm

@feelthebern

Generally, that is true, but not all the time and not at the levels seen today. Qld price was somewhat stable around$100 for most of the day. The other 4 mostly between 150 and 300, with 240ish being the mode of the distribution (no pun intended)
Rae

#2908220, posted on January 15, 2019 at 9:02 pm

Meh. They are not “taking” it. They are paying a market price for it. How does that make them mendicant?
Dr Fred Lenin

#2908223, posted on January 15, 2019 at 9:03 pm

Why dont the SA government re build the power station the left blew up and mame it the weatherill memorial non subsidised power station . And build a nuclear plant near the uranium mine named after that caldicot activite sheila . Confiscate Hazelwood and Liddel from the agl carpetbaggers and update them .
Wozzup

#2908246, posted on January 15, 2019 at 9:33 pm

When will you learn? Wind farms are not for generating electricity. Wind farms are for generating virtue.
incoherent rambler

#2908261, posted on January 15, 2019 at 9:43 pm

I lurv it when the retail price (that I pay) is lower than the wholesale price.
Tel

#2908266, posted on January 15, 2019 at 9:49 pm

They are paying a market price for it. How does that make them mendicant?

It’s not market price… three words: RET.

The wind millers make it up on the certificate trading (carbon trading by the back door).

This has got to be said over and over until the slowest people get it. Yes, even the ABC.
Chris M

#2908280, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:06 pm

and the price in Western Australia is … ?

Yes apparently they aren’t part of the nation? It says national. Be curious to know how they operate, perhaps David will tell us.
Rae

#2908282, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:08 pm

AEMO = Australian Energy Market Operation

It’s a market and everyone in it pays the market price. You might not like the way that market price is determined but that doesn’t change the fact that it is the market price.

“slow”? That’s why I’ve bolded market for you so many times. LOL.
RobK

#2908284, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:09 pm

Dispatchable and non-dispatchable electricity generation shouldn’t be in the same auction since their product is not the same. It’s insane that non-dispatchable is paid a fixed bonus over the more useful dispatchable electricity. It’s curious to call this “market” price.
RobK

#2908286, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:14 pm

and the price in Western Australia is … ?
WA suffers the RET too.
RobK

#2908292, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:24 pm

AEMO = Australian Energy Market Operation
It is the Australian Energy Market Operator.
There is little or no emphasis on market; plenty on operator/regulator. A major money go-round. RE is favoured until the system can take no more. Subsidies are screwed from established suppliers and given to experimental ventures who carry no market risk and cannot assure supply. This is insane.
Rae

#2908297, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:32 pm

The Operator is operating a Market Operation.

Pedantic, I know, but it seems that how you want it.

And you don’t like how the market price is determined either. That’s tough for you, but that’s the way it is.
RobK

#2908313, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:49 pm

That’s tough for you, but that’s the way it is.
Em, no. I’m not a part of it but it is tough for those who would benefit from a competative energy market.
Matrix Transform

#2908324, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:59 pm

Rae, technically he was being specific rather than pedantic.

you should try it
Tim Neilson

#2908361, posted on January 15, 2019 at 11:35 pm

When will you learn? Wind farms are not for generating electricity. Wind farms are for generating virtue.

True, but they’re also for generating massive taxpayer and consumer funded subsidies.
Tim Neilson

#2908366, posted on January 15, 2019 at 11:39 pm

Rae
#2908297, posted on January 15, 2019 at 10:32 pm

What kind of “market” is it when there’s a 150% plus penalty for buying one participant’s product rather than another’s?
Entropy

#2908518, posted on January 16, 2019 at 7:29 am

“Market based” is typical Orwellian debasement of language by interventionist political operatives. It really means centrally planned intervention.

There is no reason it will turn out any better than every other time central planning interfered with markets over the past century or so.
Rohan

#2908520, posted on January 16, 2019 at 7:29 am

J-man
#2908139, posted on January 15, 2019 at 7:50 pm
Turn it up. SA has been supplying for most of the day. NSW, on the other hand, has been receiving from Vic and QLD all day, and at very large amounts.

This is true. But when SA needed wind the most during the days peak in the evening, 43% of nameplate capacity was running at 9% of total generation. Mind you at its peak around 1pm it was only running at 20% of the states generation. It wasnt going flat biscuit.

That’s the key issue. When you need it it aint there.
J-man

#2908554, posted on January 16, 2019 at 8:23 am

@Rohan

Absolutely agree. What was really interesting was the prices in Tasmania. Sometimes as much as 300 and sometimes as low as negative. Whereas QLD was rock solid on about 105 all day.
Roger

#2908564, posted on January 16, 2019 at 8:32 am

Doesn’t NSW always draw from QLD?

Seems so.

Does anyone responsible ask whether, if we keep adding a population equivalent to Canberra’s to those reliant on the eastern grid every year, how long QLD will be able to do so?

After all, we’re not building any more coal fired power stations.
Dr Fred Lenin

#2908568, posted on January 16, 2019 at 8:40 am

Get the government out of all industry,what the hell would a bunch of conveyencing lawtradespersons and theiving union gangsters know about industry? Theiving yes, accomplished at that lying ?olympic class at that there their abilities run out . They have stuffed a perfectly good power industry trying to earn their bribes from renewable caroetbaggers ,get them out of it . The only thing renewable about the wind andsun scam is the mercedes they get every year crininals every one .
Jonesy

#2908597, posted on January 16, 2019 at 9:39 am

It is even more fun…our cheap and reliable power stations were ALL state owned, supplying only within the states…with extra capacity. Future sites in planning at the same time as the newest plant was brought on line. WHERE DID IT GO SO WRONG?

Could it have been that because of state ownership and the supply charters controlling operation and charging, the bureaucracy had to privatise the utility in order to tax it to death?
faceache

#2908612, posted on January 16, 2019 at 9:54 am

Had what I thought was a normal conversation with a lefty last night. Had some outlandish ideas mostly based on envy and resentment. Wondered why he didn’t get a tax refund like I did. I pointed out that he didn’t pay any tax. Still not fair he said. And then he accused me of “ranting”. Probably was a bit thru frustration. Asked him where he gets his info. mostly from CNN apparently. I used my best mind fucking statement, that I bet on Trump winning at 5 to 1 and made 5 grand. Based my bet on information not usually seen on CNN. God, I loved that day. Went for a trip to the USA on the proceeds and won another 5 Gs at craps in Vegas. Talk about being on a roll.
Anyway, going to New Zealand for a week today. See if they are saner than here. Probably not. Going to the 56th national Convention of Alcoholics Anonymous. Believe it or not AA is an island of sanity. Probably because we have to get envy and resentment out of our lives. Resentment is the biggest danger to a sober Alchy.
Dan the Man

#2908649, posted on January 16, 2019 at 10:43 am

Show me one “renewable energy superpower” , anywhere in the world, that doesn’t rely on grid connections to reliable Hydro, Nuclear or Fossil Fuel.

Just one. Anywhere.

There is none. But the more renewable the more the risk of a blackout, I mean a real blackout that lasts longer than a few days. I come from Germany where the socialist Government sets high targets of renewables. The same Government keeps warning the people urgently every few months that a long total blackout is possible, and Government agencies have described the consequences really drastically – like you might worry about not cooling the food in the freezer but the real worry is not being able to cool the dead bodies, followed by pestilences, and yes, there will be no water and no sewage, to top it up.

The Government agencies are quite drastic in their warnings, but what is missing is the fact, that such a blackout gets more probable with every wind generator that is added.

Five days ago it nearly happened, rough translation following below. Are people in Australia aware, that a blackout does not mean just no light and no Internet but is deadly?

EU power grid on the brink of collapse

On 10 January, the European electricity system was about to collapse. Cause: The mains frequency dropped below 49.8 Hertz. Normal is known to be 50 Hertz. (Hertz=oscillation per second). Only with emergency measures the collapse could be prevented.

For understanding:

The mains frequency should normally be 50 Hertz and depends on how well electricity generation and consumption are balanced at that moment. If the frequency falls below 50Hz, this means that more energy is consumed than is fed into the grid at that time. If the grid frequency rises above 50Hz, there is an oversupply of electricity at that time.

If the frequency falls below or exceeds the normal mains frequency, this leads to considerable problems in the mains up to total collapse. Recently there have been problems with this again and again, because “alternative energy feeds (wind turbines etc.)” are hardly calculable. Problem: Either too much current or too little. Both can be fatal for the grid and lead to a total blackout.

As a general rule, only as much electricity may be produced as is consumed. (This is the problem with wind turbines and solar power, but no greener one understands it).
Almost catastrophe on 10 January 2019

On 10 January 2019, the mains frequency in the European interconnected system dropped to 49.8 Hertz (underfrequency) at 21:02:06 hrs.

A further drop could be prevented by the European network operators in time. The last time this threshold was reached or fallen below was on 04 November 2006, which led to the largest power failure in Europe to date with around 10 million households without electricity. It did not concern at that time a Blackout, but only a large-scale disturbance.

Some more information on the following Swiss website, google translated into English. I haven’t found comparable information in Australia, so I am wondering if people are aware what a blackout really means.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.saurugg.net%2Fstrom-blackout
Pyrmonter

#2908677, posted on January 16, 2019 at 11:12 am

On the Cat, there are now more advocates of autarky than trade? What’s so remarkable about SA importing power? It’s been doing that since the inter-connector was built in the 1980s. And that’s _importing_ not ‘taking’ – it’s all paid for.
Rafe Champion

#2908709, posted on January 16, 2019 at 11:32 am

SA is a mendicant state because it depends on GST from elsewhere.

I should have said DEPENDENT state in this context because it is all very well to have enough wind power some of the time, the point is to have it all the time. Hence SA depends on coal in other states some of the time. Quite a lot of the time as indicated by some stats last year.

Taking Rae’s point about markets, there is no point in complaining about markets per se, they exist like the Pacific Ocean, but they get distorted by interventions. Most of us on this site favour minimal distortions and so we are not happy with prices that have been inflated by destructive policies. Hence our complaints about the energy market.
Dan the Man

#2908738, posted on January 16, 2019 at 12:09 pm

Show me one “renewable energy superpower” , anywhere in the world, that doesn’t rely on grid connections to reliable Hydro, Nuclear or Fossil Fuel.

Just one. Anywhere.

There is none. But the more renewable the more the risk of a blackout, I mean a real blackout that lasts longer than a few days. I come from Germany where the socialist Government sets high targets of renewables. The same Government keeps warning the people urgently every few months that a long total blackout is possible, and Government agencies have described the consequences really drastically – like you might worry about not cooling the food in the freezer but the real worry is not being able to cool the dead bodies, followed by pestilences, and yes, there will be no water and no sewage, to top it up.

The Government agencies are quite drastic in their warnings, but what is missing is the fact, that such a blackout gets more probable with every wind generator that is added.

Five days ago it nearly happened, rough translation following below. Are people in Australia aware, that a blackout does not mean just no light and no Internet but is deadly?

EU power grid on the brink of collapse

On 10 January, the European electricity system was about to collapse. Cause: The mains frequency dropped below 49.8 Hertz. Normal is known to be 50 Hertz. (Hertz=oscillation per second). Only with emergency measures the collapse could be prevented.

For understanding:

The mains frequency should normally be 50 Hertz and depends on how well electricity generation and consumption are balanced at that moment. If the frequency falls below 50Hz, this means that more energy is consumed than is fed into the grid at that time. If the grid frequency rises above 50Hz, there is an oversupply of electricity at that time.

If the frequency falls below or exceeds the normal mains frequency, this leads to considerable problems in the mains up to total collapse. Recently there have been problems with this again and again, because “alternative energy feeds (wind turbines etc.)” are hardly calculable. Problem: Either too much current or too little. Both can be fatal for the grid and lead to a total blackout.

As a general rule, only as much electricity may be produced as is consumed. (This is the problem with wind turbines and solar power, but no greener one understands it).
Almost catastrophe on 10 January 2019

On 10 January 2019, the mains frequency in the European interconnected system dropped to 49.8 Hertz (underfrequency) at 21:02:06 hrs.

A further drop could be prevented by the European network operators in time. The last time this threshold was reached or fallen below was on 04 November 2006, which led to the largest power failure in Europe to date with around 10 million households without electricity. It did not concern at that time a Blackout, but only a large-scale disturbance.

Some more information on the following Swiss website, google translated into English. I haven’t found comparable information in Australia.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.saurugg.net%2Fstrom-blackout